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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

JRE MMA Show #73 with Jean Jacques Machado

Joe is joined by Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu legend, Jean Jacques Machado.

Joe RoganhostJean Jacques Machadoguest
Aug 6, 20191h 37mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:45

    Brazilian Portuguese quirks: “Joe Hogan,” accents, and jiu-jitsu slang

    1. JR

      (claps) Boom. And we're live. Jean Jacques!

    2. JM

      Joe Hogan.

    3. JR

      (laughs)

    4. JM

      Yes.

    5. JR

      Pull, pull this up. Pull this up, like a... Right?

    6. JM

      It's, it's, uh, been quite some time, but, uh, we made it.

    7. JR

      Yeah, we made it. We made it happen.

    8. JM

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      People still, to this day, all my friends call me Joe Hogan, because of you.

    10. JM

      Uh, I don't know, man. (laughs)

    11. JR

      Joe Hogan! That's a funny Brazilian thing, you know? The Portuguese translation of Rs to Hs.

    12. JM

      I think, I think when we speak English, you have to use your tongue in a way that, in Portuguese, we are just flat out. And-

    13. JR

      But you use Rio. You don't say Hill, right? Do you say Hill?

    14. JM

      No.

    15. JR

      Or Rio?

    16. JM

      Rio. Rio.

    17. JR

      How's that work?

    18. JM

      Some how, the... It's, it's... In Portuguese, the first two letters are the strongest one in the word.

    19. JR

      But, but Rickson and Royce and...

    20. JM

      Say Hick-son.

    21. JR

      Right. But it's, but it's not Rickson, but it's Rio.

    22. JM

      Yes.

    23. JR

      How's that work?

    24. JM

      It's... I don't know. When it comes to a name, it's different than when you say a city name.

    25. JR

      Oh, really?

    26. JM

      Yes.

    27. JR

      Oh.

    28. JM

      It's funny. Rio, it's more something for... And when you say personal, it becomes a little, I don't know. Hick-son.

    29. JR

      So with people-

    30. JM

      Royce.

  2. 2:45 – 4:54

    How BJJ spread in Brazil: wealthy Rio roots and the early tournament era

    1. JR

      So jiu jitsu is huge in Rio, but what other parts of Brazil did this... It's a very strange, if you stop and think about the history of martial arts, which is something that's always been very fascinating to me, jiu jitsu is the most fascinating. Because until 1993, it w- very few people understood how potent Brazilian jiu jitsu was.

    2. JM

      When, when I start understand jiu jitsu and became on the teenager time, jiu jitsu is basically in Brazil, has that amazing era of my uncle Helio and Carson, the whole first generation of the family, which Brazil was all over, jiu jitsu was all over Brazil. As a teenager, remember the jiu jitsu as basically established in a very, um, wealth area, in Rio de Janeiro only.

    3. JR

      Really?

    4. JM

      That's basically have all these schools, used to call Gracie schools by the neighborhood. You have a Gracie Humaitá, you have a Gracie Copacabana, you have a... Then future Gracie Barra. But everything was almost Gracie school everywhere.

    5. JR

      And it was wealthy people?

    6. JM

      Only in the wealthy area of Rio.

    7. JR

      Wow.

    8. JM

      Then slowly, because keep in mind, we used to have one, maybe two tournaments, sport of jiu jitsu a year. That's it. We always practice jiu jitsu mainly, at that time, for self-defense. We wanna get ready for protect ourself. We'd never had much chances to try in a tournament, 'cause there's no tournament.

    9. JR

      Hmm.

    10. JM

      Every train we do is based in defend yourself.

    11. JR

      What year did tournaments start coming about?

    12. JM

      By the n- beginning of the '90s, I think this jiu jitsu tournament start catching up more.

    13. JR

      'Cause there's a crazy video of your brother, Hegan and, uh, Rickson, competing at a tournament once.

    14. JM

      That was the biggest tournament of the year. Three-hun-

    15. JR

      What year was it?

    16. JM

      Three-hun- 300 competitors.

    17. JR

      Oh, (laughs) that's crazy. That was the biggest one?

    18. JM

      That was the biggest one.

    19. JR

      That's crazy. That's so small-

    20. JM

      That's the biggest one.

    21. JR

      ... but that was the biggest one.

    22. JM

      300 people.

    23. JR

      Wow. Now, they're thousands and thousands.

    24. JM

      And now, the big ones-

    25. JR

      Yeah.

    26. JM

      ... is like 5,000 people.

  3. 4:54 – 6:26

    Family politics in competition: why matching teammates against Rickson felt wrong

    1. JR

      Yeah. Now, when this happened, uh, what year was this? With your, your brother?

    2. JM

      I think was in the '80s. Not sure which year.

    3. JR

      Really? Wow.

    4. JM

      With something... I don't think today, looking back, it's something that, um, I didn't like personally, 'cause was no need for that. We, everybody used to train together. And later on, I find out there was, behind the scenes, people involved with the organization, they wanted something more of the tournament. And they end up making something like that happen.

    5. JR

      Oh, so you mean because Hegan and Rickson had trained together-

    6. JM

      Well-

    7. JR

      ... having them compete against each other was not a good idea?

    8. JM

      Oh no, Rickson was teaching us.

    9. JR

      Right.

    10. JM

      He was our instructor. And then-

    11. JR

      Why do you think they wanted to have him compete against Hegan?

    12. JM

      It wasn't... E- even this happened on the day of the event. Was no planning of having that fight or anything. They just made that happen there. And today, I realize that the promoter of the tournament, the sponsor, uh, was talking to someone involved in promotion, "Hey man, I'll give you more money if you make something like that happen."

    13. JR

      Mm.

    14. JM

      In, in our time, if my instructor tells me, "I want you to go and do that."I don't even question, I just go and do it.

    15. JR

      Right.

    16. JM

      That's the way we were, in, in the wh- in the whole family. And, uh, our instructor said, "Now you gotta go and do this." Even though I don't like it, it's wrong, I should not do it, we do it.

    17. JR

      So, what would be wrong about it would be that you were all training partners, and in fact, Rickson was your instructor. So for one of you to go up against Rickson, it's just, uh, is... Wha-

  4. 6:26 – 8:07

    Refusing to fight your teacher: the San Diego Sambo final with Rickson

    1. JM

      I will give you a... In the, um, in the '90s, early '90s, we have a Sambo wrestling tournament in, uh, San Diego. And when we moved to America was no Jiu-Jitsu events at all. And we are in search of something similar that we can do to keep the edge. And we went to some Judo co- tournaments, we went to wrestling tournaments, not knowing the rules of anything. And we end up in a Sambo wrestling tournament.

    2. JR

      Sambo, for people who don't know, is a Russian martial art. They wear their Judo jacket, but they wear wrestling shoes and shorts.

    3. JM

      Yeah, it's kind of a mix of, of both.

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. JM

      Uh, different rules. I still don't know exactly the rules. But here we are, and myself, and now we go there and I saw Rickson in that event. And when it comes towards the final match, it was me and him on the final. And, uh, back that time, we are... We have some f- uh, conflict inside the family, things that, uh, I will keep that in four, four walls.

    6. JR

      Yeah.

    7. JM

      But, uh, we were not... The relationship wasn't as well as should be. Then when the referee called me, it's like, "Well, I'm not gonna fight my instructor, my, my coach, my, my hero, my idol." No, um... And I told the ref, "No, I'm not fighting." And even Rickson was like looking at me and... I th- I think in a good way, he knew I would not ever compete against him. But at the same time, he, he realized that, um, I would never turn myself against him.

    8. JR

      Right.

    9. JM

      I will fight for him for the rest of my life, and, and period. And I think it was the point that, um, I was able to engage back our family things together after this day, and showing him that it's all my respect, and I will fight for him, never against him.

  5. 8:07 – 16:04

    Machado vs. Gracie naming and the Chuck Norris origin story of the Valley academy

    1. JR

      Well, there was a time where people were trying to use the Gracie name, and, um, many people were opening up schools that weren't necessarily really... That, that wasn't their birth name, Gracie. Whereas you guys went a different direction and used the Machado name, and the Machado name became enormous too. So there was like... From what I remember, in the '90s, when I first started training with you, there was a... I started out at Rickson's place, and I only, uh, trained there one time, and then I went from Rickson's place to Carlson's place, just 'cause it was closer. I didn't know any better. I thought Gracie is Gracie. Oh, Carlson Gracie, Rickson Gracie. I didn't know anything, and I was a white belt.

    2. JM

      (laughs)

    3. JR

      And I was like, "Oh, another Gracie. Oh, this is like 10 minutes closer to my house. I'll just go here."

    4. JM

      But that's how it used to be in Brazil-

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. JM

      ... in the, in the '80s is all Gracie schools.

    7. JR

      But then when that place went under, Carlson lost that place. It was on Hawthorne.

    8. JM

      Yes.

    9. JR

      That was when Vitor Belfort made his UFC debut in 1997. And that place went under, I started training with you. And when I started training with you, it was like '97-ish, right? Somewhere around there? '98, somewhere around there?

    10. JM

      Uh, when was... I think it was right before Fear Factor?

    11. JR

      No, that was... It was-

    12. JM

      So it's been a few years before.

    13. JR

      ... clo- yeah, a few years before, because Fear Factor was 2001.

    14. JM

      N- NewsRadio's time.

    15. JR

      Yes. I was still on NewsRadio when I was training with you. But I remember there was like a co- "Oh, you're a Machado now." I'm like, "What are you talking about?" I was like... I didn't understand. Like, oh, there's like Machados and then there's Gra- it was like two different, like-

    16. JM

      The, the, the, the thing-

    17. JR

      ... f- factions.

    18. JM

      The thing that happened in that time was this. My mother, older sister, she's married to Carlos Gracie Sr. That mean he had seven wives.

    19. JR

      Holla. (laughs)

    20. JM

      (laughs) And his last wife was my mom's sister, and that we grew up with the family. We don't have the same last name, but I feel like I am, and all my brothers the same thing, we represent the Gracie family the best way we can forever, you know? And every day, they have a big family, have cousins that you relate better than others, but it's still a family.

    21. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    22. JM

      You know? And back at that time, two of my brothers were teaching at the Gracie school in Carson, was Higan and Carlos. And, um... I think by that time, Chuck Norris was no longer training with Rorion at the Gracie school there. I'm not sure what happened, and he stopped training. Then one day, um, some of the... Some... Chuck Norris show up at our house, at our garage. We used to teach in our garage in Redondo Beach, and we open the door. Suddenly, look, it's like, "Man, that guy looks like Chuck Norris."

    23. JR

      (laughs)

    24. JM

      (laughs) Then, then the student was with him, uh, "Boy, this is Chuck Norris," and we look like, "What?" And he, uh, brought him to train. He did train a few years back at the Gracie school, and blah, blah, blah. And it's a long story short, then he start training for us. And when he start training for us, we become very good friends. It was amazing, like something right away, he invited us to his house and-

    25. JR

      He's a great guy.

    26. JM

      Man, amazing person, we started hanging out and by that time, I remember he used to make a movie, one movie a year. He worked for six months, make a movie, and he has six months off. When we met him, he was six months off. Literally, he trains every day. But when he train, he doesn't go home. We have lunch, he hangs out, we go to a movie, then suddenly become good friends. Then one day, he... After a few months after training with us, he invited us to the valley where he used to live in Encino and said, "Look, I have surprise for you guys." Then he took us to a shopping center right on Ventura Boulevard and, um, he shows, uh, "I have a gift for you guys," and he shows, uh, uh, one of the unities, mats ready, it's like a school. Then he said, "Look, this is for you guys, that's your school."

    27. JR

      Wow.

    28. JM

      Then we looked at to him like, "Oh, Ventura Boulevard, right on the street." I said, "Chuck..."We don't think we can afford it. And he said, "Oh, don't worry, that's my building. You guys don't have to pay anything. I just wanna make sure-

    29. JR

      (laughs)

    30. JM

      ... I don't have to drive the 101 and 405."

  6. 16:04 – 19:27

    Jiu-jitsu’s life impact and UFC’s role: reality check for martial arts

    1. JR

      Well, there's enough for everybody now. I think everybody realizes. In the beginning, jiu-jitsu was so new and so powerful, and that Gracie name was so huge. Do you remember when Vitor? They used to call him Vitor Gracie.

    2. JM

      Yes.

    3. JR

      They would call him Victor for some reason. It was Victor, V-I-C-T-O-R, and then it became Vitor. Like, I was there when they were calling him Victor Gracie.

    4. JM

      Man, do you know the amazing thing and I, as a fighter, and, uh, in my generation in Brazil, everybody wants to be part of the family.

    5. JR

      Of course.

    6. JM

      Everybody wants to feel that you in that big circle because there's so much history and it's-

    7. JR

      The name is so huge.

    8. JM

      I think in August, August 12th at your birthday, right?

    9. JR

      August 11th.

    10. JM

      August 11th.

    11. JR

      Yeah.

    12. JM

      They're gonna have, uh, a statue of, uh, Carson Gracie-

    13. JR

      Uh-huh.

    14. JM

      ... being in Copacabana rib. I mean, a lot of recognitions happen now, but jiu-jitsu, and especially the Gracie jiu-jitsu, 'cause-

    15. JR

      Yeah.

    16. JM

      ... anyone that does jiu-jitsu today, you're doing Gracie jiu-jitsu somehow.

    17. JR

      Yes. Yes.

    18. JM

      Maybe second generation, third generation student of this guy who his instructor was a student of. I mean, I think everybody should be, and, and they are grateful for what their family has done. I mean-

    19. JR

      Yes. The fam... It's the most important family in the history of martial arts by a long shot.

    20. JM

      Man, it, it changed the world.

    21. JR

      Changed the world.

    22. JM

      Changed the world.

    23. JR

      Changed my world. I remember when, uh, UFC came out and I watched it. And I had been a striker my whole life and, um, I had done a little wrestling in high school. But no jiu-jitsu, no submissions, no nothing. And I watched Royce Gracie just run through everybody and I, I felt, I felt so vulnerable. I was like, "Oh, no, I don't know any... I don't know any of this. What the fuck? This is how it w-" I was watching him take guys down and just strangle them, I'm like, "Shit." And these guys were killers. They were stand-up killers. And Royce was just dominating everybody.

    24. JM

      Uh, man, I mean, when I was in Arizona, remember the first one, the show and the pay-per-view in, uh, it was in Denver, right? The first-

    25. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. JM

      ... UFC. And I was teach a seminar and I think back those day, the guy paid me $1000 for the weekend.

    27. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    28. JM

      And I-And I was watching a group of guys, and they were not even sure. And I put the money on the table and said, "Hey, who wants to make a bet that the skinny little guy, like look like a doctor is gonna win everything?"

    29. JR

      (laughs)

    30. JM

      And everybody like, "No. No, that guy..." "Okay, put the money down." Nobody put the money down. And here we are, because we knew what Jiu-Jitsu is. We knew-

  7. 19:27 – 22:49

    “Healthy bullying,” belts, and why jiu-jitsu builds resilience and community

    1. JR

      It's hard for people to understand too that have never practiced it, how fun it is, you know? It's, it's ... And it means so ...

    2. JM

      I-

    3. JR

      And it makes your mind the better thing.

    4. JM

      I wa- I was telling some of the students, Jiu-Jitsu is a healthy way for you to be bullied by someone. You are in a school, an environment, and you have the higher belts playing with the white belts.

    5. JR

      Yes.

    6. JM

      Day in, day out, the white belts come in, it's literally being bullying in a healthy way because this is now a safe environment.

    7. JR

      Well, it's not bullying when you're not getting picked on, but you're getting manhandled.

    8. JM

      Then the thing is, they get smashed daily, they come back for next class.

    9. JR

      Yes.

    10. JM

      Next class. Until soon, they're gonna start be able to do the same thing.

    11. JR

      Yes.

    12. JM

      And that little step they do, they realize like, "Wow, I'm being picked by someone. Now I stand by myself and I'm-"

    13. JR

      Yes.

    14. JM

      ... able to," and he turned the table around. It's a very healthy way to be picked up, smashed-

    15. JR

      Yes.

    16. JM

      ... every day that if you stay there, stick there, you're gonna use that, you're gonna reverse that. You get choked, pretty soon you're gonna be choking someone. You get arm bar, you're going to arm bar someone. And as uh, walking up in the stairs and that's how we grew up. We go to the schools, we get beat up like by the older cousins and, "Oh man, I don't think that's for me," but then we come back one more time.

    17. JR

      Yeah.

    18. JM

      Then we come back one more time. Then 40 years later, you're still coming back for one more time.

    19. JR

      Well, it teaches you not just resilience, but how important it is to just keep showing up.

    20. JM

      And it's uh, it's fun.

    21. JR

      Yeah. (laughs)

    22. JM

      The whole thing, you get choked, you go home like, "How that guy choke me?"

    23. JR

      Yeah. (laughs)

    24. JM

      "I thought I knew how to defend it."

    25. JR

      (laughs)

    26. JM

      "But how did he made me turn in the way that he get the choke?" Then it's intrigue, then you keep ... And, and back in the '80s, we had no videos. We have to try to memorize and see how this actually happened.

    27. JR

      Right.

    28. JM

      Is ... It was a lot more challenging because you have to try to remake it-

    29. JR

      Right.

    30. JM

      ... not sure if that's what actually happened to you. But the amazing thing and I l- remember a lot of times and looking around the mats, I have all my brothers, all my cousins. It's no way someone in this room would never ha- would not have the answer for the question that you have.

  8. 22:49 – 44:36

    Why Rickson was ‘the best’: defense, adaptability, breath, and movement philosophy

    1. JR

      Well, that was the most amazing thing about Rickson, right? 'Cause Rickson was the one guy that everyone said was the best.

    2. JM

      When I grew up, and I have to say, um, it was a privilege to watch, for me have some guys from Carson School that was amazing fighters, used to watch them, and I remember one of them were Cassio Cardoso, for me was phenomenal. We have definitely Royler for his size, his weight.

    3. JR

      Most accomplished-

    4. JM

      Phenomenal.

    5. JR

      ... out of all the greatest-

    6. JM

      Phenomenal, man.

    7. JR

      ... in competition. The most accomplished.

    8. JM

      Phenomenal what this guy did with, uh, his size against opponents, uh, people look like, "N- no way." And yes, it is a way.

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. JM

      And definitely, as you're going heavier-

    11. JR

      (laughs)

    12. JM

      ... I have my brother, Hegan, which was an amazing fighter too. And evidently, for me, my time was Rickson. It's like you have the era of Rickson.

    13. JR

      Yeah.

    14. JM

      A lot of unbelievable fighters, but you're, (laughs) you're in the wrong decade.

    15. JR

      (laughs)

    16. JM

      If you have Rickson there, you know? Could be you-

    17. JR

      Right.

    18. JM

      ... but he was right there.

    19. JR

      Right, you could have been number ... You're number two under Rickson, you could have been number one under anybody else.

    20. JM

      And the, and the amazing thing, you feel like a chameleon.

    21. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    22. JM

      He can, he can kinda make any game-You train with him, he can pretend to be you fighting me or anybody.

    23. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    24. JM

      It's amazing, that aspect, especially on the teaching process.

    25. JR

      What was so good about him?

    26. JM

      He used to go to our school, we have 30 of the best guys, all, all, all higher belts. And he tells you, "Okay, choose how you wanna start." And you choose, "Okay, oh, he is not gonna get out." He gets out, and he gets you in the position you ask him to start, with everyone. I think the most, the best thing that he has on his game that, um, on my view and should understand that, was his defense.

    27. JR

      Hmm.

    28. JM

      No way to get him. He let your mount, take his back, do whatever you want, you can't get him.

    29. JR

      He used to start, let guys take his back with a rear naked choke, fully locked in, black belts. "Go ahead, start from here."

    30. JM

      Yeah, stuff from-

  9. 44:36 – 47:31

    Sport vs. fighting jiu-jitsu: angles, distance, and adapting guard for MMA

    1. JR

      Do you think that, uh, th- there was transitionary period where a lot of Jiu-Jitsu guys were having a hard time because they were, they didn't know how to take people down. And then the wrestlers were learning how to keep them at distance. They were learning takedown defense.

    2. JM

      In, in a... Yes. And, and that's the very challenging thing. And, but if I'm fighting a wrestler, what are the chances that he's gonna take me down? It's higher than me actually taking him down.

    3. JR

      Right.

    4. JM

      And most of the things that we do in the Jiu-Jitsu, on the what we see in the sport Jiu-Jitsu today, we're not gonna use in a real fight. Most of the Jiu-Jitsu seen at tournament, we're not gonna use that in a fight.

    5. JR

      Hm.

    6. JM

      That's the difference from that generation of the '80s to the generations from the '90s until up today. It's two different kinds of, uh, Jiu-Jitsu. One is a sport which is very beautiful, a lot of people, they do amazing techniques, but the rules of the sport had the tendency to take to another direction. And when you have the Jiu-Jitsu as the '80s, we practice using a lot of leverage with the arms, patience. And when we play guard in the '80s, it's different than we play today. Today, you have a lot of gis wrapping around everything.

    7. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    8. JM

      The gi became a weapon.

    9. JR

      Right.

    10. JM

      In our time, the gi was never weapon. The gi was like almost like a paper.

    11. JR

      Right.

    12. JM

      We use a lot the neck, a lot the elbow. The-

    13. JR

      Well, that's what helped you when you transitioned to NoGi, right?

    14. JM

      Oh, definitely. It's-

    15. JR

      And also because you were born with no fingers on your left hand.

    16. JM

      Man, it was no d- for me and ch- today, there's no difference.

    17. JR

      Right.

    18. JM

      I play exactly the same in both.

    19. JR

      Right.

    20. JM

      No difference at all.

    21. JR

      But you were all over hooks and underhooks and, and grips around the body. And whereas the guys who transitioned to MMA, and they're all game relied on grabbing collars and sleeves, those guys had a harder time.

    22. JM

      For sure.

    23. JR

      Yeah.

    24. JM

      A lot of guys, that's why a lot of guys that trying to come in, they might be good on their top games, but when they go on their back-

    25. JR

      Yes.

    26. JM

      ... they are kind of a little lost until the end-

    27. JR

      Especially big guys, right?

    28. JM

      Yeah, on how to play the game.

    29. JR

      Yeah, that's why it's so impo- impressive when you see a big guy who also has a great back, a l- great off his back like Fabricio Werdum.

    30. JM

      I, I think if you notice is, if I'm on the bottom of someone, and I'm flat, I'm a target.

  10. 47:31 – 50:12

    Eddie Bravo’s rubber guard and the ‘close distance’ solution to ground-and-pound

    1. JR

      Well, Eddie figured out a brilliant thing with rubber guard when, with a brilliant thing with mission control and how to control from the back of the neck, utilizing-

    2. JM

      He closes the distance.

    3. JR

      ... the leg. Yes, yeah.

    4. JM

      He closes the distance.

    5. JR

      He changed a lot of people's games.

    6. JM

      What, what, uh, some people don't want to recognize, but they have to, is the idea that he had... And I remember him coming up and trying some of the techniques. And people, "Oh, this is crazy." I said, "No, man, keep going. This is-"

    7. JR

      Yeah.

    8. JM

      "... you're gonna get somewhere." I don't think... Not everybody can do that because you have to be a little bit flexible.

    9. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    10. JM

      But once you learn how to do it, you save your life.

    11. JR

      Yeah.

    12. JM

      How many guys that when they get ahold of their foot done... And keep their close, it's no gap or room for the person on top to hit you?

    13. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    14. JM

      And as you're trying to move too much, your arm suddenly is just stuck.

    15. JR

      Yup.

    16. JM

      And there we go.

    17. JR

      Yeah.

    18. JM

      He closes the distance. You can't be playing with my arms are free 'cause I'm gonna ground and pound you, especially the heavy guys, man.

    19. JR

      Right.

    20. JM

      You get hit once or twice, that's it.

    21. JR

      Mm-hmm. Yeah, he figured out some very unique ways to use his legs.

    22. JM

      And you notice that he close the distance, or he changed the angle?

    23. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    24. JM

      Close the distance, change the angle. Whoever's on top, you don't have space or you don't have the angle. You're always in a weird position when they get a hold of your head and their leg, the way he does.

    25. JR

      It's interesting to see the evolution of Jujitsu from 1993 UFC style to, to 2019 too. There's so many m- new techniques. There's so many new approaches. But there's some guys like Roderick Gracie, for instance, who just use the basics honed to razor-sharp edge. You don't see a lot of crazy berimbolo chokes or wild things from a guy... Those... A, a lot of the, like, real rock solid traditional techniques guys.

    26. JM

      He... The simple works all the time.

    27. JR

      Yes.

    28. JM

      Whichever is simple works all the time.

    29. JR

      Yeah.

    30. JM

      Any things you use that require more than three steps, you need to train a lot.

  11. 50:12 – 51:41

    Modern competition risks and longevity: muscling transitions, injuries, and smarter training

    1. JM

      And today, you see a lot of... The Jiu-Jitsu have... You need something called transition. You go from number one, beginning the position, transition, then you have the submission. Today, they jump from number one, beginning to the submission is not transition. The transition now has become muscle.

    2. JR

      Hmm.

    3. JM

      They have to over... But I never seen so many injuries today in the Jiu-Jitsu competition.

    4. JR

      Really?

    5. JM

      So many injured, shoulder, knee, foot, elbow, like my God.

    6. JR

      What do you think it's from?

    7. JM

      Because it, it, it's, it's not... Y- you're missing a lot of the sometimes the finesse to get there.

    8. JR

      Hmm.

    9. JM

      They have to muscle.

    10. JR

      Well, that's one of the reason why I wanted to talk to you about your longevity, because you are the best guy that I know of in terms of like you... You're... I mean, you have a little k- knee injury, a little meniscus, but that's it. I've known you forever. You've never had, like, a major surgery. You've never had, like, a major problem. And everybody I know gets hurt. Everybody.

    11. JM

      I mean, a- again, it's the way you train, the way you control the fight.

    12. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    13. JM

      I think people gotta understand is, I rather get you once, but I get you well than trying to get you 20 times.

    14. JR

      Right.

    15. JM

      Sometimes people try to go after each other and the injury will happen.

    16. JR

      Right, 'cause they're clashing.

    17. JM

      E- exactly.

    18. JR

      Yeah.

    19. JM

      If I have somebody come very tense to me, I don't play tense back.

    20. JR

      Right.

    21. JM

      I try to relax. More you relax, more I'm gonna be able to achieve against you.

  12. 51:41 – 57:05

    Hard matchups and rule sets: Dean Lister frustration and the ADCC approach

    1. JR

      I remember when you competed against Dean Lister and he was about 250,000 pounds (laughs) . D- Dean was so fucking big. He was so big.

    2. JM

      Man.

    3. JR

      But you were able to use your technique.

    4. JM

      That was one of the very big frustration for me on that event because I remember I was, um, training to be in my weight class below 170. And that year, we have, uh, with Marcelo Garcia, we have some good names, good guys to fight and I was training a lot for that. And I think, um, week and a half before the event, um, Arona was supposed to fight Dean Lister, but back in those days, I think his contract with Pride did not allow him to fight 'cause their concern is an injury happen-

    5. JR

      Right.

    6. JM

      ... and he's gonna be m- missing the Pride fight. Then they come a week and a half to offer me that fight. And, um, and I end up taking that fight, but I don't think I, I trained specific and focused to fight Dean. And I think the fight was, uh, honest for me, Dean was a monster, but it wasn't a good fight. It was not much happening on the fight.

    7. JR

      Right. It was mostly defense and stuff.

    8. JM

      He was concerning to move.

    9. JR

      Right.

    10. JM

      And I was... I felt the difference on the... I was so light.

    11. JR

      Yeah.

    12. JM

      And I, I did not train with anybody heavy 'cause I was fighting under 170. I was just training with people that weight class and lower to get the speed to be ready for those guys.

    13. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    14. JM

      Then here we are, a week and a half, I don't think I was feeling ready for fight somebody this big. My strategy, I have no strategy back then. Okay, let's, let's try not to move. But he was very smart, not moving much. I have every then to be worried about him grab a hold, get a hold of my foot. And I think it was 20 minutes, not much happened on that fight. And, um, and for me, it was... I was frustrated not be ready for a fight like that.

    15. JR

      Hmm.

    16. JM

      'Cause I was training to fight in a lower class, I was so ready. And I regret not doing that.

    17. JR

      Hmm.

    18. JM

      Would be amazing. But for the other reason, I ended up moving up and no problem.

    19. JR

      Well, when you did do Abu Dhabi the first time, I think it was a wake-up call for a lot of people that, you know, because of, you know, being born with no fingers in your hand and your approach to Jiu-Jitsu being so over hook and under hook powered, you know, you, you transitioned so smoothly into NoGi, whereas a lot of guys from your era, they would go and transition into NoGi and they really, they're missing so many tools 'cause they're so used to grabbing the Gi.

    20. JM

      Do you know what? I remember when I got a call to go in '99 and, um, they said the rules would be 10 minutes, 5 minutes. First five, nothing counts.

    21. JR

      Right.

    22. JM

      Then after five, whatever the rules were, I don't even know today what the rules were anyways, what counts or not count. But then I realized, man, the first five minutes not count, that's, let's go. And-

    23. JR

      Right. So if people don't know what we're saying here, Abu Dhabi is a very strange rule set. So for... Uh, the 10-minute round, the first five minutes of it, there's no points. It doesn't matter what happens. If someone takes you back, if you get mounted-

    24. JM

      Nothing counts.

    25. JR

      ... you, you get into a triangle, but you escape, there's no points.

    26. JM

      And I just go...... bring the guy to the ground, pull guard right away, and let's go.

    27. JR

      Right.

    28. JM

      And I think was surprise for a lot of people because right from the bat, I keep going all the way. And, um, again, with the transition that I, for me, I have no transitions, the same, gi and no-gi.

    29. JR

      Right.

    30. JM

      And I felt at home.

  13. 57:05 – 1:05:13

    Rio rivalries and ‘beach challenge’ history: Luta Livre, street fights, and controlled pride matches

    1. JR

      Now, in the early days of Jiu-Jitsu, there was, uh, a lot of no-gi guys on the Luta Livre side, right? There was a v- for people don't understand, there's a big rivalry in Rio between Jiu-Jitsu and Luta Livre.

    2. JM

      Um, a lotta, a lotta times, you have people that come to our school, and they don't fit in. They, and they walk away. And if I understood back those days, those guys were some of these people that they don't, do not fit into the Jiu-Jitsu schools and they end up creating their own no-gi school.

    3. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    4. JM

      But you gotta understand that, uh, in the '80s, our generation, in Rio de Janeiro summertime, man, it's 110, 115, extremely humid. And we did a lot of trainings. We trained in the gi and after the gi session, take the top of the gi out, and here we go. We train no-gi. Since we are white belts, we've been doing that because they intend or learn how to get out of a headlock, how to be in the bottom, somebody trying to slap you, what do you do. And that was our training that generation. That's why almost everyone from the '80s is still up-to-date teaching and making a great school. All the ge- that generation is still, the longevity of them being doing Jiu-Jitsu still out there. A lot of guys that I see now, especially with the social media, they're all teaching, they're all doing very well. A lot of them, too big, some of them still in good shape and teaching. But that generation, I think is, uh, for me, was a golden, gold generation 'cause they're still out there.

    5. JR

      Hmm.

    6. JM

      And the people that come from that generation, their students, uh, they developed such a good Jiu-Jitsu roots.

    7. JR

      Is there still Luta Livre in, anywhere?

    8. JM

      Uh, I think they still have there, but, uh-

    9. JR

      But it's not a rivalry anymore, right?

    10. JM

      No, I don't think today pass that time. And I think that the rivalry was a need for our generation to establish Jiu-Jitsu as a very effective art. And I think some of the MMA events that happened was the fight we should be- should be happen on the street, then we're able to bring that into make into a arena. This way, only the two guys will be fighting, not innocent people get hurt on the street.

    11. JR

      Hmm.

    12. JM

      And I think what is, what people don't realize is a lot of those fights could be happening right on a nightclub or some people even get killed. No, let's bring the fight into the arena, only you two guys, nobody else is gonna get hurt. And that's why a lot of those events happen. No money, no prize money, nothing.

    13. JR

      Wow.

    14. JM

      Just for pride.

    15. JR

      There's some videos of some of them that still exist, you know?

    16. JM

      Just for pride. There's no money involved in any of those events.

    17. JR

      Who did Rickson fight on the beach? Who was that?

    18. JM

      Rickson fight Hugo Duarte.

    19. JR

      That's right, Hugo Duarte went on to fight in Pride. He fought Tank Abbott, right?

    20. JM

      Man.

    21. JR

      He fought some different people in MMA.

    22. JM

      I, I remember that day was so funny because, um, it have a point on the beach in Rio that is, it's where most of the Jiu-Jitsu, it's whe- where the pretty girls were. And all the guys will go there to session the beach, very famous people. And then everybody will go in that session. And I'm, we keep hearing that Hugo challenged Rickson, Hugo challenged Rickson, Hugo challenged Rickson.

    23. JR

      Here it is right here.

    24. JM

      There we go.

    25. JR

      Smacked him in the face.

    26. JM

      Then, and Rickson was like, "No, he didn't say anything," and I'm right there, see him walking right there in, uh, light shorts there. My mission were, uh, Rickson look at, boom, look at me and say, "Hey, watch my back."

    27. JR

      Where were you?

    28. JM

      I'm the one, okay, I'm off of the screen now, right on, on my left. You're gonna see me standing there then. Oh, you can, right, if, if I get up, I can show you. I can point this thing.

    29. JR

      So what, what year is this? What year is this?

    30. JM

      Man, sometime in the '80s. And do you know who's filming that? We have, um...... high in Gracie. He was sitting, uh, someone shoulders with a camera.

  14. 1:05:13 – 1:11:44

    Leg locks boom and safety philosophy: why beginners shouldn’t chase heel hooks first

    1. JR

      What do you think about this new trend that you're seeing? Like you, you saw it particularly coming out of John Danaher and Dean Lister with the leg locks. Like leg locks are so big in, in Jiu-Jitsu competition now.

    2. JM

      When, when we learn Jiu-Jitsu, and still today, we would not learn anything related to legs until we get our blue belt. The main reason be- behind this were to be able to let you develop guard.

    3. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    4. JM

      Without concern anything. Just learn how to move your hips and-

    5. JR

      Right.

    6. JM

      ... sweeps, and hooks. Foot lock is something very effective. But if I show you right away, I might be stopping some of the evolution of your game, or the other person that you train with, that he can learn-

    7. JR

      Mm.

    8. JM

      ... which will make even better his foot lock.

    9. JR

      Right.

    10. JM

      That's why we hold back until people get a f- one year or two into Jiu-Jitsu to learn leg locks. But today we have the no gi, everybody's such in a hurry, there are a lot of no gi schools, the first thing people wants to learn, "Hey, I wanna learn heel hook."

    11. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    12. JM

      In Jiu-Jitsu, it's with gi, "I wanna learn arm bar."

    13. JR

      Right.

    14. JM

      The no gi wants to go straight to the leg, the gi people want to go straight to the arm.

    15. JR

      But I think particularly because of the, the success of these leg locks against high level competition.

    16. JM

      Oh, no. It, it's effective. It's amazing. I think it's a portion of the game, you know? And, uh, and you, you will see the development of people that we have defending that, which also will force guys to pass also beyond the legs only.

    17. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    18. JM

      But definitely, their work is a very danger. You let people wrap their legs around your leg, hook you there, I mean, not everybody can get out of that.

    19. JR

      And if you don't tap, you're gonna get your knee ripped apart.

    20. JM

      For sure.

    21. JR

      And that's the real problem with leg locks is that so many guys wind up with pretty devastating knee injuries.

    22. JM

      In the '80s, the, the, the decision not to have heel hooks in Jiu-Jitsu-... was for safety. We do, we did practice but the competition does not allow. You gotta understand that in the '80s, if you have a knee problem, your career is over.

    23. JR

      Right. There's no surgery that really would fix it-

    24. JM

      I mean...

    25. JR

      ... correctly, right.

    26. JM

      Today, it's different.

    27. JR

      Yeah.

    28. JM

      You understand? It's the evolution of the medical side make possible for you to put a brand new knee over there.

    29. JR

      Yeah, but still to this day, meniscus tears and cartilage tears, those are still huge. I mean, without stem cells, it's very, very difficult to fix those unless you get the meniscus. Like, I had part of my meniscus removed in my left knee.

    30. JM

      And then you see, I mean, you wanna train for longevity.

  15. 1:11:44 – 1:13:24

    Combat jiu-jitsu and old-school slap training: bridging sport grappling to real fighting

    1. JR

      What do you think about combat jiu-jitsu, Eddie's new invention?

    2. JM

      M- man, I think it's a way for people to step up to reality and understand, and some guys make a decision, "You know what? I might be able to go and do MMA too."

    3. JR

      Hmm.

    4. JM

      But that's the real world.

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. JM

      If you fight somebody, that's exactly what's gonna happen.

    7. JR

      Right.

    8. JM

      And making people more aware of, "Okay, my jiu-jitsu for jiu-jitsu sport only is not gonna work that well for this kind of a jiu-jitsu. I have now to be aware more of my real fight."

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. JM

      And I think it will help more the evolution of that sport of jiu-jitsu to-

    11. JR

      Transition to MMA. For people-

    12. JM

      ... transition.

    13. JR

      ... who don't know what combat jiu-jitsu is, Eddie Bravo invented a way where you do jiu-jitsu with slaps on the ground. And, uh, you, you would think it's just, "Oh, it's just a slap." But no, a palm strike, really. I mean, you really can hit someone very, very hard with your palms. (fists thudding) I mean, I can do that with my hand on a table and it doesn't hurt my hand at all. But if I did that with my knuckles, it would really hurt. So they're, they're, they can smack the shit out of each other. And-

    14. JM

      We s- we used to do that after-

    15. JR

      (clears throat)

    16. JM

      ... we train jiu-jitsu, is to call in Portuguese, tap-taparia. It's like a slap each other after the train.

    17. JR

      (laughs)

    18. JM

      No shirts. Yes. And we used to train like that in Brazil.

    19. JR

      Oh, really?

    20. JM

      Yes, to be ready. Again, we have no tournaments.

    21. JR

      Right.

    22. JM

      I mean, after the train, let's see, and we stand in front of each other and open hands, and there we go. Slap each other, make sure you don't get slapped on the face. But at the end of the train, you have marks-

    23. JR

      Hmm.

    24. JM

      ... all over your body.And you still shake your brother's hand. "Hey, I love you," but you're all over mess.

  16. 1:13:24 – 1:25:46

    Longevity toolkit: strength work, trail running, neck training, diet, and recovery habits

    1. JR

      Are you still, uh, do you still lift weights?

    2. JM

      Yes, I do.

    3. JR

      How, how often do you do that?

    4. JM

      Two days a week.

    5. JR

      Two days a week.

    6. JM

      But I, but I like to run a lot. I like outdoors.

    7. JR

      Mm-hmm, yeah.

    8. JM

      I run three or four days a week. And-

    9. JR

      Yeah?

    10. JM

      ... jiu-jitsu.

    11. JR

      What, are you running trails?

    12. JM

      I did try at my house. Now it's too hot. I don't know. Unless you go early in the morning, it's-

    13. JR

      Yeah, I go like 8:00-

    14. JM

      ... pretty-

    15. JR

      ... 8:00 in the morning.

    16. JM

      It's very hot right now.

    17. JR

      Even 8:00 in the morning, it was, it was hot this morning when I went.

    18. JM

      It's... Boy, it's very hot right now.

    19. JR

      Yeah.

    20. JM

      But I like it, uh... I think I, I want to challenge my body always to bring the best of the resistance because I, I, I, I, I think I don't like to go and run the same street over and over again.

    21. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    22. JM

      Somehow your body already got used to that.

    23. JR

      Right.

    24. JM

      I'm always trying to find different-

    25. JR

      The challenges, yeah.

    26. JM

      ... trails, yes. This way, it's like in a fight. You know?

    27. JR

      Yes.

    28. JM

      It changes up and down the whole time.

    29. JR

      Yeah.

    30. JM

      And... But it's something to s-... The jiu-jitsu is my excuse to do all of this.

Episode duration: 1:37:38

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