JRE MMA Show #83 with Firas Zahabi

Joe Rogan 0:02 If you're listening to this, uh, uh, an audio version, you're denied the beauty of my salmon-covered, colored T-shirt. Beautiful Tristar-

Firas Zahabi 0:11 You look good in it.

Joe Rogan 0:12 I look very good-

Firas Zahabi 0:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:13 ... in your shirt. Thanks for coming here, brother.

Firas Zahabi 0:15 Pleasure. Glad to be here.

Joe Rogan 0:16 Pleasure to have you, man. I use one of your expressions all the time, the touch of death. And there is no better example than what we saw Saturday night with Deontay Wilder. Jesus Christ, can that guy punch!

Firas Zahabi 0:29 I had him losing all the rounds.

Joe Rogan 0:31 Yeah. Me too.

Firas Zahabi 0:31 And, uh, I thought one round was really close, could've go either way, but I had it six to none. And that right hand, my God.

Joe Rogan 0:38 (laughs) It's so crazy. It doesn't even make sense.

Firas Zahabi 0:41 When you look at that shot, it landed it above, like, kind of like in the forehead, this area.

Joe Rogan 0:47 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 0:47 Not on th- not even on the chin.

Joe Rogan 0:49 No.

Firas Zahabi 0:50 Usually here, if you're a powerful puncher, you could daze a guy.

Joe Rogan 0:53 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 0:53 But put him out the way he did?

Joe Rogan 0:54 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 0:55 Wow!

Joe Rogan 0:56 And no windup too.

Firas Zahabi 0:57 That's... No windup.

Joe Rogan 0:57 Just right from here, blap!

Firas Zahabi 0:59 That's touch of death.

Joe Rogan 1:00 Crazy.

Firas Zahabi 1:01 Touch of death.

Joe Rogan 1:01 Like nobody ever... Think about that guy's record, 41 knockouts, one decision, one draw.

Firas Zahabi 1:08 It's incredible.

Joe Rogan 1:09 Undefeated, 41 knockouts in 42 fights.

Firas Zahabi 1:14 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:14 I mean, that is bonkers.

Firas Zahabi 1:16 And he was getting outboxed, like he's not-

Joe Rogan 1:17 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 1:18 ... the best boxer. He might-

Joe Rogan 1:19 Well, he doesn't care to box with you.

Firas Zahabi 1:21 Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

Joe Rogan 1:21 He just... He knows-

Firas Zahabi 1:22 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:23 ... s- like, it's such a crazy strategy because out of anyone that has ever fought in the heavyweight division, he is the one guy that literally can shut everyone's lights out-

Firas Zahabi 1:33 Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:33 ... with one shot. Everyone's a knockout artist. Foreman was-

Firas Zahabi 1:36 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:36 ... a knockout artist. Frazier, Tyson, of course, was a knockout artist. But not like this guy.

Firas Zahabi 1:40 No.

Joe Rogan 1:41 This guy's got... It's like another level of craziness.

Firas Zahabi 1:44 I would agree. I mean, he knows himself, that's what so beautiful.

Joe Rogan 1:47 Uh-huh.

Firas Zahabi 1:48 If he was less strategic, he would've started fighting really early, and maybe-

Joe Rogan 1:51 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 1:51 ... maybe zap that power he has. But he knows. He knows-

Joe Rogan 1:54 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 1:54 ... exact- he didn't care he lost six rounds. He had no-

Joe Rogan 1:56 No.

Firas Zahabi 1:56 ... he had no qualms about it. And he got hurt just before, just before he knocked out, uh, Luis. He was hurt, and he stayed calm. He's like, "Oh, now you're gonna come for it? Now you're gonna walk in to the right." And bang!

Joe Rogan 2:08 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 2:09 It's incredible.

Joe Rogan 2:09 Well, I think he also knew that from the first fight, Ortiz started to fade.

Firas Zahabi 2:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:13 And the first fight was very similar, in that the first few rounds there was very little action, and then it started to pick up, and then Ortiz started to fade. But Ortiz put it on him in that first fight. If you watch that first fight, you're like, "Wow, this is a crazy rematch for him to take." But-

Firas Zahabi 2:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:27 ... in this fight, he just fought a perfect strategy, just waiting. And people, oh, my God, I was on Twitter reading people, "This guy can't even box." Like, did you not see what happened?

Firas Zahabi 2:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:37 You say he can't box. He's undefeated. He's the fucking heavyweight champion of the world. He has, he tied Muhammad Ali for the most title defenses ever.

Firas Zahabi 2:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:47 Did you really just say he can't box? In fact, he's a professional boxer.

Firas Zahabi 2:51 Go in there with him then.

Joe Rogan 2:52 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 2:52 Go in there. If I laced you up, be- right before the... You would be like, you, you'd be so-

Joe Rogan 2:56 Oh, my God.

Firas Zahabi 2:56 ... petrified, you would turn white and faint.

Joe Rogan 2:58 The way he punches is so strange.

Firas Zahabi 3:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:00 It's so strange.

Firas Zahabi 3:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:02 And, you know, when he fought Tyson Fury, he told me he weighed 209 pounds.

Firas Zahabi 3:05 Oh, really?

Joe Rogan 3:06 209.

Firas Zahabi 3:06 That's it?

Joe Rogan 3:07 That's it.

Firas Zahabi 3:07 Wow.

Joe Rogan 3:08 Crazy.

Firas Zahabi 3:09 Wow.

Joe Rogan 3:10 Wow. (laughs) He's, he's a phenom- like all humans are not created equal.

Firas Zahabi 3:15 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:15 Some people just have a beautiful hand of cards.

Firas Zahabi 3:19 Mm-hmm. Yes.

Joe Rogan 3:19 Like that guy's got four aces, and he puts them right in your face. Boom!

Firas Zahabi 3:23 He, he understands what he's good at-

Joe Rogan 3:25 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 3:26 ... and he fights that way-

Joe Rogan 3:27 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 3:27 ... which is brilliant.

Joe Rogan 3:28 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 3:28 As I always tell my students, it's, fighting is two things, it's, one is level. You gotta get to a certain level. And then the second thing, you have to figure out your style. Like you have to know everything about what you do. Like for instance, if you look at Ali and Tyson, they fought totally differently. Two equally, in my opinion, like... Okay, we could split hairs and say who was better b- let's say they fought, it would be very competitive. Whoever you think would win in that fight, it would be very competitive. Ali fights the total opposite of Tyson. Ali circles supposedly the wrong way if you look at the book of boxing. They tell you, "Don't circle towards the power side." He doesn't care. In his style, it makes sense. He's up on his toes, he's jabbing, he rarely ever throws a body shot. He throws, he's thrown a handful of body shots in his entire career. Whereas Tyson is the total opposite. He marches forward, he has that peekaboo style, he has that... You know, he's got the gloves tied up to his chin. And a totally different style. If Tyson tried to fight like Ali, he would lose, you know? But they're at the same level, but they figured out, "Hey, what am I good at? What, what advantages do I have physically? What disadvantages do I have physically?" And that's why at one point, you have to figure out your style, and I feel that's where most fighters fall apart. They never-

Joe Rogan 4:38 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 4:38 ... figure out their style. They're trying to do what some trainer told them. They're trying to do what the guy they, they most admire in the ring d- does. They never find out exactly how they, what's best for them.

Joe Rogan 4:46 Hmm. That's such a good point, because it's such a creative art form in that way. And I b- I do believe that martial arts are an art form. I really do, because to me, it's so beautiful. Like even that right hand that Deontay landed, that to me was gorgeous.

Firas Zahabi 5:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:00 There's never been a prettier sunset or more beautiful mountain. Just blap! Watch that s- spray, that s- the, the way you see the spray, the sweat come off his head, and then Ortiz crumbles. And Deontay walks away like this, chest up, like, "Motherfucker, you're not getting up." He knew he wasn't getting up.

Firas Zahabi 5:16 He knew, he knew.

Joe Rogan 5:17 He knew.

Firas Zahabi 5:18 He knew.

Joe Rogan 5:18 He knew.

Firas Zahabi 5:18 When he dropped him-

Joe Rogan 5:19 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 5:19 ... he walked off right away. Like he knew, he was calm, and he went-

Joe Rogan 5:20 It's the way he walked off too.

Firas Zahabi 5:22 Yeah. He knew.

Joe Rogan 5:22 It's just like he knows.

Firas Zahabi 5:24 He knew.

Joe Rogan 5:25 God-

Firas Zahabi 5:25 He knew.

Joe Rogan 5:25 ... damn, that guy's got crazy power. But th- but what you said is so important because i- it's a creative endeavor. You're, you're trying to figure out how to land shots, and you're also trying to disguise what your ideas are or what your tactics are. And you gotta figure out what's, works best for your body type. And that's so open-ended, like martial arts are so, it's so open-ended. Once-

Firas Zahabi 5:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:50 ... the referee says fight, there's all this creativity involved. And that's something that I think a lot of people don't really appreciate.

Firas Zahabi 5:57 100%. Sometimes you have a trainer who kills that creativity-

Joe Rogan 6:00 Hmm.

Firas Zahabi 6:00 ... because he tells you, "Look, this is how you fight."

Joe Rogan 6:02 Right.

Firas Zahabi 6:03 And if you go outside of that mold, no, no, you're reprimanded.Yeah. So me- me, if a fighter wants to drop his hands, should you drop your hands in a fight or should you hold them up? Well, it depends what kinda guy you are. If you got incredible eyes and you see shots coming from a mile away and you're- you're successful with your hands down, or one hand down, per se, let's say, then keep doing it. But you gotta- that's why I- I think sparring is so important because when we spar, we actually try it.

Joe Rogan 6:26 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 6:26 Now we're testing. We're testing, "Hey, does this airplane fly or is it gonna crash and burn?" Well, we better test it in the gym before we take it out in the arena and find out it doesn't fly. And I always tell guys, "Look, if- if you're at- if you're fighting with your hands down, show me in practice that you're successful. Then I won't- I won't say anything negative. I won't say- I won't change your style, I'll let it be. But first we have to see that you're successful." Because theories is one thing, but then when you get in there and try, it's a whole other.

Joe Rogan 6:50 Hmm. Well, Wonderboy Thompson's an excellent example of that.

Firas Zahabi 6:53 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 6:54 I mean, he fights so well with his hands down. He is the- to me, the consummate karate-style fighter that has made the perfect transition to MMA because he fights so well with his hands down. You don't know where stuff's coming. You don't know whether it's coming up, whether it's coming around, whether it's going straight at you and you don't see it until... You're looking at his body and these things are coming up from his hands being down like this and he's standing sideways.

Firas Zahabi 7:20 You can take him to the wrong trainer and ruin him. Let's say he was really young and he was forbidden that style.

Joe Rogan 7:26 Hmm.

Firas Zahabi 7:26 Because some trainers do that. They forbid-

Joe Rogan 7:28 Right.

Firas Zahabi 7:28 ... a certain style, they for- forbid a certain type of, uh, maneuver or- or- or style a- altogether. Like for instance, in the '70s, most trainers would not train a- a right-hand- a left-handed boxer. They'd switch you around.

Joe Rogan 7:40 Hmm.

Firas Zahabi 7:41 "No, no, I don't train left-handed. You gotta be right-handed. You- we gotta convert you." But that's a- that's a dex- detriment to the fighter because your trainer is limited in one a- he only understands fighting in one way, now I'm gonna limit my fighter. It- it's- it's- i- it's totally wrong, in my opinion.

Joe Rogan 7:57 What do you think about fighters who say that even if you're a right-handed person, there's an advantage to fighting as a southpaw because you have your most dextrous-

Firas Zahabi 8:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:06 ... hand, the hand that you have the- the most control of, is your lead hand, and you're also fighting in this unusual stance that is only, like... What is southpaws? Like, maybe two out of 10 people, something like that?

Firas Zahabi 8:16 Right. Right. Here in the West, yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:17 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 8:17 If you go to Asia, it's a lot more, but-

Joe Rogan 8:19 Is it really? Oh, I wonder why.

Firas Zahabi 8:20 Yeah, the Asians are more southpaw. I think, uh, you know, the- the wheel of the car's on the other side.

Joe Rogan 8:25 Oh.

Firas Zahabi 8:26 And the sh- stick-shift. I don't know, it's like a left-handed world, almost. A lot of things are the other way around.

Joe Rogan 8:30 Huh.

Firas Zahabi 8:31 Yeah, like, uh, they drive on the other side of the road, the- the- the driver's on the other side of the car, so I- I don't know, maybe it- maybe it affects the way you develop. But, uh, I agree. Like, I think- I always tell fighters, "Try both sides and see which one you like better."

Joe Rogan 8:44 Hmm.

Firas Zahabi 8:44 I can't tell you which one you're more comfortable with. Maybe one of your eyes is a stronger, so when-

Joe Rogan 8:48 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 8:48 ... you're like this, it's- it's kind of killing you, so you need to be like that. You never know until you test. So I like to let the guys figure it out. So when t- people tell me, "Do I grab it like this or like that?" In some instances, there's a right way and a wrong way, f- as far as we know. One way is right, one way is wrong. And sometimes it doesn't make a difference. I tell the guys, "Grab like you're comfortable," because I do it the way I- I like to do it. I don't do it the way my trainer showed me. So in this particular instance, I say it's a question of comfort. Like, people freak out if you grab a kimura like this with your thumb.

Joe Rogan 9:16 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 9:16 I don't. In some instances, I grab the kimura with my thumb. In some instances, I don't.

Joe Rogan 9:20 Hmm.

Firas Zahabi 9:21 So I just show people both and I say, "Look, th- that part, it's up to you."

Joe Rogan 9:24 You certainly can finish it w- by using the thumb.

Firas Zahabi 9:26 Sure, and in some instances-

Joe Rogan 9:27 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 9:27 ... it's stronger with the thumb. In some instances.

Joe Rogan 9:29 Yeah, 'cause you have better hand control.

Firas Zahabi 9:30 Sure.

Joe Rogan 9:31 Yeah. You know, just clamping down on it, you're actually isolating it. Yeah, I mean, some people have just ridiculous y- grip with their hands, too. And that- that- that- that should play a factor in there as well. Do you remember, uh, Semmy Schilt?

Firas Zahabi 9:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:43 Semmy Schilt had hands that were as big as this table. He'd grab ahold of guys' wrists-

Firas Zahabi 9:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:47 ... and they'd be just fucked. Like, if you were in his guard and he just grabbed your wrists like this-

Firas Zahabi 9:51 Yeah, he did that with Fedor. It was like-

Joe Rogan 9:53 Yeah. "This is you for the whole round." He's like, "Get, ugh, ugh."

Firas Zahabi 9:55 Ben and Page did that with, uh, Lima.

Joe Rogan 9:57 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 9:57 You remember that?

Joe Rogan 9:58 Yes. Yes.

Firas Zahabi 9:58 He was like... Just-

Joe Rogan 9:59 Mm-hmm, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 9:59 ... crazy grip. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:01 I'm c- Well, that's a great fight, too, huh?

Firas Zahabi 10:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:03 Lima, that's- that's an argument for me. That Lima is one of the arguments for me where I feel like there's gotta be, uh, as a fan, I wanna see Lima fight the best 170-pounders in the world, so a co-promotion.

Firas Zahabi 10:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:17 I know the UFC never wants to see a co-promotion-

Firas Zahabi 10:19 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:19 ... because that promotes up- it pumps up Bellator, but, uh, right now, Lima, especially after he just decisioned Rory.

Firas Zahabi 10:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:25 You know, and the way he knocked out Michael Page.

Firas Zahabi 10:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:27 I mean, nobody's- nobody's done that to Page before.

Firas Zahabi 10:30 No. No.

Joe Rogan 10:30 And the way he did it, like, that guy can put anyone to sleep.

Firas Zahabi 10:33 Can I ask you, who- who did you give round one to, Page versus Lima? I thought it was 50-50, like, I was right down the middle.

Joe Rogan 10:39 (sighs) I'd have to watch it again because all I remember was Lima starching him.

Firas Zahabi 10:43 In round one?

Joe Rogan 10:43 You know? No, no, no. When- when did it end?

Firas Zahabi 10:46 Uh, round two. Round two, he just-

Joe Rogan 10:47 Round two. Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 10:47 But he got hurt right before he knocked him out.

Joe Rogan 10:49 Yeah. You got-

Firas Zahabi 10:49 Like, he got- he got a little wobbled and then he kind of got his base again.

Joe Rogan 10:52 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 10:52 And then low kick, boom, uppercut.

Joe Rogan 10:54 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 10:55 Vicious.

Joe Rogan 10:56 Yo, he's- he's so dangerous. He's so dangerous. And his low kicks are some of the best in the world.

Firas Zahabi 11:00 Ugh, I never seen better.

Joe Rogan 11:00 That first fight with Rory-

Firas Zahabi 11:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:02 ... Jesus Christ, that swelling on his leg. Didn't he say that took, like, six months before he could use it right?

Firas Zahabi 11:07 Oh, his leg is still not the same. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:09 Really? Really?

Firas Zahabi 11:10 Well, it's, uh, like, it tore some fascia, so if you look at it, his- his leg is a little bit, uh, like, there's, like, some hanging-

Joe Rogan 11:15 Oh, geez.

Firas Zahabi 11:16 ... soft tissue. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:17 Oh, I'm, uh, that's like Pedro Rizzo. You remember Pedro Rizzo when he was fighting heavyweight?

Firas Zahabi 11:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:21 He would kick guys in the leg and they'd have-

Firas Zahabi 11:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:22 ... this look on their face, like-

Firas Zahabi 11:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:23 ... "What in the fuck is that?"

Firas Zahabi 11:25 Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. That's-

Joe Rogan 11:27 Yeah, there's levels.

Firas Zahabi 11:28 That's why in this, the rematch, I wanted to make sure we gotta take that off the table.

Joe Rogan 11:32 Mm, yes.

Firas Zahabi 11:32 You know?

Joe Rogan 11:32 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 11:33 I look forward to a- to a trilogy match, so it's one on one now. You know?

Joe Rogan 11:36 (laughs) But Rory's t- Rory's had some conversations where he's talked about, like, not fighting again.

Firas Zahabi 11:40 Uh, you know what, I think, uh, he's had some mixed emotions, but I think it's clear he wants to fight now. Like, there's no question about it. I think it was just that moment in the ring and he was emotional, but once his head clears up, like, he wants to fight again. Like, I don't think you could stop him from fighting. Like, he loves to fight.

Joe Rogan 11:55 Well, he's so good.

Firas Zahabi 11:56 I know, he's so good. He'll be back.

Joe Rogan 11:57 He, and he, and I... What- what did you think when he went up to fight Mousasi? I was worried about that fight. I didn't like that fight.

Firas Zahabi 12:03 I didn't like that fight either.But, uh, you know, i- if you wanna win double gold, you gotta take that risk.

Joe Rogan 12:07 Right.

Firas Zahabi 12:07 But personally, I'll be, I'll be honest with you, I don't think you should fight a champion in his prime when you're a weight class below. Like, when they were asking for, uh, BJ Penn versus George, I was like, "Yeah, let's do it. George is in his prime right now."

Joe Rogan 12:18 Right.

Firas Zahabi 12:18 You wanna bring a champion and a guy with another belt? And ... But I think it was a bad decision for, for BJ. Like, if I was BJ's trainer, I wouldn't let hi- let him do that.

Joe Rogan 12:25 Right.

Firas Zahabi 12:25 Like, for instance, when George w- when they wanted to put him with Anderson Silva, I said, "Look, give me a game plan that was f- I'm really confident in, and then we'll do it, but maybe not when he's at his prime." Like, it's, it's just so dangerous. And I'll, and I'll tell you why. You can win, but then be ... uh, shorten your career.

Joe Rogan 12:41 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 12:41 'Cause, 'cause at that level-

Joe Rogan 12:43 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 12:43 ... 15 pounds more is 15 tons more. Like, it-

Joe Rogan 12:46 Well, there's fights that people win and even if they want ... Like, the ... My position on Stipe versus Francis Ngannou is very similar. I mean, I know Stipe won that fight, but Jesus Christ, Francis Ngannou, he scares the shit out of me, man (laughs) .

Firas Zahabi 13:00 (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 13:00 He hits people so hard. When he knocked out Alistair, I mean, literally, like, you saw his soul leave his body.

Firas Zahabi 13:07 (Exhales) .

Joe Rogan 13:07 And then Stipe survives that fight, but then gets KO'd by DC-

Firas Zahabi 13:11 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:11 ... with one punch shortly afterwards.

Firas Zahabi 13:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:13 And my ... I mean, it's something that I don't wanna take anything away from DC, uh, 'cause he clearly landed that punch, it was clearly a strategy of working in the clinch and is a beautiful punch.

Firas Zahabi 13:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:23 And who knows? Maybe he lands that beautiful punch in the rematch and he knocks him out again. Maybe it could have happened.

Firas Zahabi 13:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:29 But it didn't.

Firas Zahabi 13:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:30 And-

Firas Zahabi 13:30 (clears throat) .

Joe Rogan 13:30 ... I wondered how much of that punch having such a dramatic effect on Stipe, who's had an amazing chin most of his career, how much of that was because of that incredible war that he had with Francis. 'Cause the first round of that was f- terrifying.

Firas Zahabi 13:44 Yeah, it was.

Joe Rogan 13:45 Terrifying.

Firas Zahabi 13:46 And, and the thing is if Ngannou loses, he's gonna lose in a way that's not so bad. But if you lose to Ngannou?

Joe Rogan 13:51 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 13:51 It could be the end of your career.

Joe Rogan 13:53 Yes. It could be.

Firas Zahabi 13:53 Like, you may never be the same. So, did he help DC? Well, for sure. You know, it's all cumulative.

Joe Rogan 13:58 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 13:58 (clears throat) Excuse me. But other fighters, I mean, Jon Jones helped Miocic as well, but I get what you're saying. Like, Ngannou's got the touch of death.

Joe Rogan 14:06 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 14:06 Like, if, if I was his trainer, I'd put him in boxing-

Joe Rogan 14:08 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 14:08 ... as well. Like, I'd, I'd be looking at boxing fights.

Joe Rogan 14:10 Well, you know, he's talking about that.

Firas Zahabi 14:11 Well, he should be.

Joe Rogan 14:12 He has a few fights left on his UFC deal, and, uh, apparently, his idea is to one day make his way into boxing, which is just a ... fantastic i- ... He's so big.

Firas Zahabi 14:22 (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 14:23 He's lifting weights again, apparently. Uh, just randomly, I ran into his agent, um, at this place called DreamScape. Do you know what DreamScape is?

Firas Zahabi 14:30 Mm-hmm. No.

Joe Rogan 14:31 DreamScape is this, uh, cool virtual reality thing in LA. You put on these goggles-

Firas Zahabi 14:35 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:35 ... and go through this adventure. And his family and my family did it together, just randomly. Just happened to be teamed up together.

Firas Zahabi 14:40 Oh.

Joe Rogan 14:41 And we were talking about Francis and he was saying that Francis wants to eventually fight as a boxer, as a heavyweight boxer. That's his dream.

Firas Zahabi 14:47 Mmm.

Joe Rogan 14:47 And that right now he's been lifting weights and he's, like, well over 270. He's apparently, like, 275, 279, somewhere in that range.

Firas Zahabi 14:54 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:54 He's-

Firas Zahabi 14:54 But he's gotta be careful with weights, 'cause weights could actually make you weaker. Like, if you, if you, if you balloon yourself up too far, it can gas you out and later on, like, you could lose-

Joe Rogan 15:01 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 15:01 ... the sustainability of your power.

Joe Rogan 15:03 Right.

Firas Zahabi 15:03 There's a right amount of muscle for each athlete. I mean, it just ... I don't know ... I don't agree that bigger is always better, more power. It's not necessarily the case. But, uh, he has to stay within his natural, uh, limits for ou- optimal power.

Joe Rogan 15:14 Also, he has to make sure that ... Look, a- a guy that big, at 279 pounds, he's probably not really accustomed to cutting weight. There he is.

Firas Zahabi 15:24 Boom. Oh my goodness.

Joe Rogan 15:25 (laughs) Boom. That guy has got some thighs on him.

Firas Zahabi 15:27 (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 15:27 And the power that guy has, though. Just ridic- ... So, he's ... Yeah, he's at the UFC Performance Institute, so he gets-

Firas Zahabi 15:32 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:32 ... the chance to use all ... They have an amazing facility there. Have you trained down there at all?

Firas Zahabi 15:36 Yes, I have. I've been there a few times.

Joe Rogan 15:38 It's incredible, huh?

Firas Zahabi 15:38 I was actually supposed to work with Ngannou, but, uh, we had a little trouble connecting, but ... Like, uh, getting him in the country and all that.

Joe Rogan 15:44 Oh.

Firas Zahabi 15:44 But I was supposed to work with him

Joe Rogan 15:45 In, in Montreal?

Firas Zahabi 15:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:45 Oh, interesting.

Firas Zahabi 15:46 Yeah, but, uh, yeah, I know him. I mean, uh, I would definitely put him in boxing. So I would do both, I would do MMA and boxing.

Joe Rogan 15:51 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 15:52 Uh, but, like, it's, uh, it's like in Thailand. You know, in Thailand, if you've got good hands, like, if you do a couple of Thai fights, Muay Thai fights, and you knock a couple guys out with your hands, they take you right away into boxing.

Joe Rogan 16:00 For real?

Firas Zahabi 16:00 Like, they see the potential. Yeah, because there's more money in boxing.

Joe Rogan 16:03 Ah.

Firas Zahabi 16:04 If you're world champion in Muay Thai, it's not the same as being world champion in boxing.

Joe Rogan 16:07 How much do you think Deontay Wilder won this weekend?

Firas Zahabi 16:09 Pf ... I don't know, but the way he's winning, it's gotta be ... it's gotta be something special.

Joe Rogan 16:14 I hope-

Firas Zahabi 16:15 He's go- he's gotta be. He's heavyweight world champion.

Joe Rogan 16:16 Yes. I would, I would hope. But, well, the, the interesting thing too is the, this tournament that's involved, this unofficial tournament, right? 'Cause what do we have? Are we a week or, uh, or so away from the rematch between Andy Ruiz and Anthony Joshua?

Firas Zahabi 16:32 It's gotta be coming up soon.

Joe Rogan 16:33 Somewhat.

Firas Zahabi 16:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:33 I think it's about a week. I think it's next weekend.

Firas Zahabi 16:35 Mmm.

Joe Rogan 16:35 But that fight, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa (laughs) !

Firas Zahabi 16:38 (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 16:38 That's another one. And Joshua looked so good in training. And Andy Ruiz, man, you can't judge that guy on his belly. 'Cause-

Firas Zahabi 16:45 You don't know nothing if you think that's what it is.

Joe Rogan 16:47 (sighs)

Firas Zahabi 16:47 You think that's what fighting is?

Joe Rogan 16:48 Please.

Firas Zahabi 16:48 Do you guys have a tissue somewhere? Sorry, my, my nose is like-

Joe Rogan 16:51 Yeah, sure. Sure.

Firas Zahabi 16:51 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 16:52 His, his hands are spectacular. The fluidity of his combinations, it's gorgeous, man. I love-

Firas Zahabi 16:58 Mexican Rocky.

Joe Rogan 16:58 Oh, he's so good. I love watching that guy throw combinations. And when he fought Joshua, that was the thing, was, h- if he hit him once, he's gonna hit him 13, 14, 15 times after that. Bang, b-b-bang, bing, bing, bing!

Firas Zahabi 17:10 Mmm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:10 And the hands are like a middleweight's hands. I mean, he's so fast.

Firas Zahabi 17:13 He moves, he moves beautifully.

Joe Rogan 17:14 He takes a shot great too.

Firas Zahabi 17:16 Mmm.

Joe Rogan 17:16 And he's such a, like, a sweet, unassuming guy. Like, he wins the title and you're like, "Fuck yeah."

Firas Zahabi 17:22 (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 17:23 Like, you're happy for him.

Firas Zahabi 17:24 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 17:24 He's such a nice guy, man.

Firas Zahabi 17:26 But do you think, uh, Joshua underestimated him?

Joe Rogan 17:29 Well, the word is, and this is from people that, that really know what's going on. This is an un- ... I mean, I, I can't give specifics, but, he- apparently, Joshua got knocked out in training.

Firas Zahabi 17:40 Oh, really?

Joe Rogan 17:40 Yes. Like, a couple weeks out.

Firas Zahabi 17:42 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:42 Like, bad. And that's one of the reasons why they say his father was so furious at the promoter-

Firas Zahabi 17:48 Mmm.

Joe Rogan 17:48 ... after R- Ruiz knocked him out. And it's also one of the reasons ... They said that he had a, some sort of a panic attack in the locker room leading up to the fight.

Firas Zahabi 17:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:57 So if he was compromised and he knew he was compromised, you know ... and you know as well as anybody, there's certain knockouts that you can get in the gym that can fuck a fighter up for months.

Firas Zahabi 18:05 Oh, yeah, of course.

Joe Rogan 18:06 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 18:07 Pff. I've seen it.

Joe Rogan 18:07 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 18:07 That's why in the practice room I don't like rough training.I don't like rough training. Like, certain fighters who are coming up to a fight, I'll let it go further. I get it, we need the intensities. But I don't like to go in the gym and see this guy knock out this guy, then this guy knock out this guy, and th-

Joe Rogan 18:22 Right, right.

Firas Zahabi 18:23 ... what happens, you go in the practice room, there's nobody there the next week for sparring.

Joe Rogan 18:25 Right.

Firas Zahabi 18:26 And sparring has to be practice, not fighting.

Joe Rogan 18:28 Right.

Firas Zahabi 18:28 So if I had a world champion and he's sparring and I felt one of his sparring partners was out of control, I would definitely have a talk with him or not use him anymore. Like, when George f- when George spars, I pick all his rounds, but they have to be s- they have to be reasonable rounds, not... And I mean, not touch sparring, but not also being malicious and trying to injure each other.

Joe Rogan 18:46 But George told me that you told certain guys to try to knock them out.

Firas Zahabi 18:49 Yes.

Joe Rogan 18:49 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 18:50 Uh, yeah, this is true also. I put a bounty on him as well.

Joe Rogan 18:54 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 18:54 Because the guy's, at one point, he was too famous, nobody wanted to touch him no more.

Joe Rogan 18:57 Oh.

Firas Zahabi 18:57 And it was too low.

Joe Rogan 18:58 Oh, I see.

Firas Zahabi 18:59 So I'm like, "Listen-"

Joe Rogan 19:00 The level is too low.

Firas Zahabi 19:00 "... put him on the ground, I'm gonna Twitter it for you. Your Tinder's gonna explode, you're gonna become famous."

Joe Rogan 19:06 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 19:06 "And you're gonna be the number one man on Twit- Tinder, everybody's swiping right for you."

Joe Rogan 19:09 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 19:09 "You're the guy who took GSP down." Like, I pumped him up because they're too, "Oh, it's GSP."

Joe Rogan 19:13 Right, right.

Firas Zahabi 19:14 You know? There- so there's a balance. There's not, there's too little and then there's too much, you know? So s- I mean, if you're trying to, like, uh, throw vicious knees when, you know, like... I- i- if you're, if you're, if I see you're trying to be rough, overly rough, 'cause this is a control, you know if I touch you, I'm gonna back off if I hurt you.

Joe Rogan 19:29 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 19:29 But if I touch you and now I'm trying to knee you and kick you and I'm trying to, like-

Joe Rogan 19:32 Right.

Firas Zahabi 19:32 That's like, "Hey, this guy is..." And the thing is, with George, sometimes I'll keep a guy fresh, so he'll be, he'll be two, two rounds in, then I put in a fresh guy. So that first guy has to have some control as well because George is tired now.

Joe Rogan 19:41 Right.

Firas Zahabi 19:41 You know, he's fatigued and et cetera. So, I mean, the- there's a balance. There's too little and there's too much, so, uh, if, if you get knocked out in practice before a title fight, it could be an accidental, but it could also be negligence. The guys are just too rough. 'Cause sometimes you do go in boxing gyms and it's like, kill or be killed.

Joe Rogan 19:57 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 19:57 That's the attitude.

Joe Rogan 19:58 Yeah. Well, it's a lot of MMA gyms as well.

Firas Zahabi 20:00 I agree. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:01 And it's, um, it's very unfortunate because a lot of people, they ruin their career-

Firas Zahabi 20:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:05 ... inside the gym because they're sparring not just once a week, but twice, three times a week, and they're going, and they might get concussed. They might get concussed on Tuesday and spar again on Thursday.

Firas Zahabi 20:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:15 And that's-

Firas Zahabi 20:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:15 ... very, very common.

Firas Zahabi 20:16 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 20:17 And there's no regulation, no one's stopping you from sparring. If you got head kicked tomorrow, no one's stopping you from showing up on Saturday and putting your mouthpiece in and going into class. It's just...

Firas Zahabi 20:26 It's nuts.

Joe Rogan 20:27 It's nuts.

Firas Zahabi 20:27 It's nuts.

Joe Rogan 20:28 And I think most people don't think about those sparring sessions as being cumulative, like, the adding on-

Firas Zahabi 20:36 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:36 ... to the, the number. I always tell people to look at their brain like a punch ticket.

Firas Zahabi 20:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:39 Like, let's say you have 100 spots-

Firas Zahabi 20:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:41 ... on that punch ticket. Don't use them up sparring-

Firas Zahabi 20:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:45 ... with some guy where you just decide to bite down your mouthpiece and go to-

Firas Zahabi 20:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:48 ... war with this guy for no reason.

Firas Zahabi 20:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:50 That's, you gotta, if you wanna be a professional fighter, you have to act like a professional. You, you have to treat your profession-

Firas Zahabi 20:57 Mm.

Joe Rogan 20:57 ... with respect and think that you only have a certain amount of time in the game.

Firas Zahabi 21:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:01 And that's, what, j- I mean, w- this thing that you teach and this thing that I love, this m- m- mixed martial arts, it must be treated with respect, because when done perfectly, when done an- and when someone wins a title and someone has an amazing run like George did when he was-

Firas Zahabi 21:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:17 ... the welterweight champion, I mean, it's a truly spectacular thing.

Firas Zahabi 21:20 Mm.

Joe Rogan 21:21 But it can also go terribly wrong. And you, you have to, like, it's one of the reasons why I asked you, does Rory wanna fight? When you said-

Firas Zahabi 21:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:27 ... "Yes, he wants to fight, nothing can stop him,"-

Firas Zahabi 21:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:29 ... f- that's beautiful, I wanna hear that.

Firas Zahabi 21:30 Mm.

Joe Rogan 21:31 The worst thing you could see is someone who maybe doesn't really wanna fight anymore-

Firas Zahabi 21:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:36 ... and they keep fighting and they keep getting knocked out and no one tells them, "Hey, you gotta stop."

Firas Zahabi 21:42 I was, I was talking to, uh, Freddie once upon a time, Freddie Roach.

Joe Rogan 21:45 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 21:45 And he was telling me about, you know, different guys, how they train. And one boxer, I don't wanna say his name, but he was telling me, that guy's, that guy's routine was 12 rounds of sparring every day.

Joe Rogan 21:56 Was it James Toney?

Firas Zahabi 21:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:58 I knew it. I knew it.

Firas Zahabi 21:59 You know, you know, you know, it's gotta be him.

Joe Rogan 22:02 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 22:02 He's one of the greatest counterpunchers of all time.

Joe Rogan 22:05 Oh, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 22:06 But when he, when he was fighting in UFC-

Joe Rogan 22:09 Well-

Firas Zahabi 22:10 ... the, I, I, I, I-

Joe Rogan 22:10 ... that was, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 22:11 ... I know what you mean, but they had to put subtitles. He's speaking English.

Joe Rogan 22:15 Right. Yeah, you're right, you're right.

Firas Zahabi 22:16 They had to put subtitles.

Joe Rogan 22:18 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 22:18 You know, at what price?

Joe Rogan 22:20 Yes. Yes.

Firas Zahabi 22:20 At what price you can do 12 rounds a day? So there has to be, like... Look at the Cuban boxers, they're not rough in practice. Look at the Thais.

Joe Rogan 22:26 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 22:26 They're not rough, they're technical.

Joe Rogan 22:28 The Thais, especially.

Firas Zahabi 22:29 Thais, especially.

Joe Rogan 22:30 They, they pla- I love Saenchai, since Saenchai is one of the greatest-

Firas Zahabi 22:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:33 ... Instagram pages too.

Firas Zahabi 22:34 Mm.

Joe Rogan 22:34 'Cause you see all this training and, you know, he's sparring with no gloves on-

Firas Zahabi 22:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:38 ... no shin pads-

Firas Zahabi 22:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:40 ... and they just, "Ai! Ai!" They're just tapping each other and slapping each other. And when he's not doing that, he's hitting pads.

Firas Zahabi 22:45 Mm. And he-

Joe Rogan 22:46 And then he fights.

Firas Zahabi 22:46 And he'll fight bare knuckle.

Joe Rogan 22:48 Yeah?

Firas Zahabi 22:48 Smiling, ear to ear.

Joe Rogan 22:49 Yeah, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 22:49 He's going to a bare knuckle fight. They brought him a foreigner he's never seen before. The foreigner's 20 pounds heavier, this guy in 80 fights, he doesn't care.

Joe Rogan 22:55 He doesn't give a fuck.

Firas Zahabi 22:55 He doesn't even care. And it's bare knuckle and he's there walking now-

Joe Rogan 22:59 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 22:59 ... and he's like, he's smi- I would be petrified. Listen, I'd be like-

Joe Rogan 23:02 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 23:02 ... "Okay, this is it. Like, I gotta kill or be ki-..." The guy is so relaxed.

Joe Rogan 23:05 He has a beautiful style too.

Firas Zahabi 23:07 He's so skilled. Incredible.

Joe Rogan 23:07 I love how light he is on his feet. Like, b- it's perfect example of what you were saying. Even though he's fighting in this discipline, Muay Thai, he fights his own way. I mean, if you saw a silhouette-

Firas Zahabi 23:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:17 ... of Saenchai fighting, you'd say, "Well, that's Saenchai."

Firas Zahabi 23:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:20 He's got his way.

Firas Zahabi 23:21 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:21 Light on the feet, switching stances-

Firas Zahabi 23:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:23 ... all the time, moving. Like, really interesting style-

Firas Zahabi 23:27 Mm.

Joe Rogan 23:27 ... that he developed this.

Firas Zahabi 23:29 Yeah. Yeah, he... There's so many ways to do it, and you don't know which one is right 'til you try it on. That's what I always tell guys when I show them a new technique, I say, "Do it for two weeks. If you don't like it after two weeks, I won't ask you to do it again."

Joe Rogan 23:40 Mm.

Firas Zahabi 23:40 But you gotta have that grace period, 'cause sometimes you teach something to somebody, and I've done this too, where I learn a move and I'm like, "No, I don't do guillotine like that." And then a year later, I'm like, "That's the, my favorite way to do guillotine." Like, I changed my mind about it.

Joe Rogan 23:50 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 23:51 Why? Because I tried it out, I actually figured out the nuances after exploring it a little bit more. And all of a sudden, I like this guillotine above this one.

Joe Rogan 23:58 Do you ever fuck with this pretzel grip?

Firas Zahabi 24:00 Uh, yeah, sometimes, yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:01 That feels so weird when you do it in the air, but goddamn-

Firas Zahabi 24:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:04 ... when you do it on a person, it feels amazing.

Firas Zahabi 24:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:06 It feels like one of the best grips.

Firas Zahabi 24:08 When I do this, I'm trying to sweep.

Joe Rogan 24:09 Ah, interesting.

Firas Zahabi 24:10 So that's how it's, like if I'm like this, it's 'cause I'm gonna sweep you.

Joe Rogan 24:12 Oh, because you have more leverage on the forearms?

Firas Zahabi 24:14 Yeah, I feel, my forearms-

Joe Rogan 24:14 More pull?

Firas Zahabi 24:15 My forearms incline.

Joe Rogan 24:16 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 24:16 So if I'm like this, my elbow's down. If my, I'm like this, my elbow's up, so I-

Joe Rogan 24:19 I see.

Firas Zahabi 24:19 ... now it's easier for me to, to tilt you.

Joe Rogan 24:21 And then you got, like, Marcelo, who grabs the hand on the outside.

Firas Zahabi 24:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:25 He grabs, like, the blade of the hand-

Firas Zahabi 24:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:26 ... and that's his grip. And his thought is that he's sliding this in better, and also for the rear naked, which is his specialty. So if you're rolling, if he goes for that and he's rolling and he gets your back again, he's always sliding under the chin.

Firas Zahabi 24:39 He's got a vicious guillotine, like I-

Joe Rogan 24:40 Oh, this guy's vicious, everything.

Firas Zahabi 24:42 I felt it.

Joe Rogan 24:42 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 24:43 Like you're, you're tapping right away.

Joe Rogan 24:44 Mm.

Firas Zahabi 24:44 Like, there's no compromise, you know, it's-

Joe Rogan 24:47 Yeah. It's, um, that, it's a blade of the bone-

Firas Zahabi 24:50 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:50 ... against the esophagus too.

Firas Zahabi 24:51 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:52 His, his style is so unique too because everything was based on no, no big man moves. Right? Like, he didn't believe in Kimuras. He does, doesn't do Kimuras.

Firas Zahabi 25:02 No Kimura.

Joe Rogan 25:02 'Cause it's like, you know, you, if you're doing a Kimura against a big giant guy, you're not gonna be able to get it, 'cause you're not gonna be able to ... He's gonna wrestle out of it.

Firas Zahabi 25:09 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:09 So, everything he did was all neck-based.

Firas Zahabi 25:12 Do you ever see a smaller guy Kimura a bigger guy?

Joe Rogan 25:15 Very, very, very, very rarely.

Firas Zahabi 25:17 So rare. So rare.

Joe Rogan 25:17 Yeah. The guy has to be exhausted.

Firas Zahabi 25:18 Right. So, he uses it as a grip?

Joe Rogan 25:20 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 25:21 But not as a finish?

Joe Rogan 25:22 Right.

Firas Zahabi 25:23 Because his philosophy is if the finish doesn't finish everybody-

Joe Rogan 25:25 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 25:26 ... it's not good enough.

Joe Rogan 25:27 Well, there's a lot of guys who teach a system based on Kimura traps-

Firas Zahabi 25:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:30 ... like using the Kimura to get to the back, using the Kimura to set up an arm bar. And I think that's, uh, that's a ... I mean, uh, look, I'm a fan of the Kimura. And Jocko, who just left-

Firas Zahabi 25:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:39 ... is, he'll rip your fucking shoulders off.

Firas Zahabi 25:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:40 He's a Kimura master, but he's also a gorilla.

Firas Zahabi 25:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:43 You know?

Firas Zahabi 25:43 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:43 I mean, Jocko's 5'11", 240, and he's fucking, he's a tank.

Firas Zahabi 25:49 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:49 He's all about ripping shoulders apart-

Firas Zahabi 25:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:51 ... and neck cranks. He's, he's-

Firas Zahabi 25:53 I, if, if he grabbed a Kimura on me, I'd be freaking out.

Joe Rogan 25:56 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 25:56 Like, I know that's, that's really bad.

Joe Rogan 25:57 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 25:58 You know? I, I, when I'm rolling with a bigger guy, I know that I have to do everything not to give them that grip.

Joe Rogan 26:03 Yes. Yes.

Firas Zahabi 26:04 You know? It's, it's like, you have to know the pros and cons of every hold.

Joe Rogan 26:07 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 26:07 I believe in Kimura. I train my students in Kimura. Because if you don't do Kimura, you're gonna get caught in Kimura.

Joe Rogan 26:13 Right.

Firas Zahabi 26:13 It's like-

Joe Rogan 26:13 And it's also an effective way to get out of certain situations.

Firas Zahabi 26:16 Sure, sure.

Joe Rogan 26:16 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 26:17 If you don't know Kimura, it's like if you don't know Darce. Like, when, when Darce came on the scene, everybody was getting Darced-

Joe Rogan 26:23 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 26:23 ... by the guys who knew Darce.

Joe Rogan 26:24 Right.

Firas Zahabi 26:25 When, when, uh, Anaconda came out on the scene, everybody was getting caught in Anaconda. Leg locks came out on the scene, it was leg lock fire. Everybody, if you didn't know the leg-

Joe Rogan 26:32 Hmm.

Firas Zahabi 26:33 ... leg lock game, you don't know the new leg lock game, you're done. So, every time there's something new, I like to learn it. Whether I like it or not, long term, I still know it. So, if you try it, like, I know what you're up to, you know? It's kind of like a magic trick, you know? If you show it to me again, I'm not so surprised.

Joe Rogan 26:45 Right, right. What, uh, what are your feelings on guys like, uh, Garry Tonon, who's doing fantastic now in MMA, but he hasn't really faced the upper level of competition?

Firas Zahabi 26:55 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:55 We're not seeing anybody with that style-

Firas Zahabi 26:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:58 ... winning. I mean, since Paul Harris, who has a similar sort of modified-

Firas Zahabi 27:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:02 ... sort of s- very ... But similar leg lock attack.

Firas Zahabi 27:05 Look, I think ultimately, the most important martial art is Jujitsu. And I'll tell you why. Because to beat Jujitsu, you need Jujitsu mixed with something else. Boxing, wrestling, Taekwondo, whatever. But you, you gotta have some Jujitsu. Because if you have zero Jujitsu and you're going into the fight, you're gonna get, you're gonna get beat. Styles like Jujitsu need a lot of time. So, if your foundation is Jujitsu ... 'Cause how was Jujitsu developed? In Vale Tudo, the Brazilians had no time limit. When they were fighting in Brazil, it was a two-hour fight, a three-hour fight. So what you took me down and you held me down for three minutes? Nobody cares in Brazil.

Joe Rogan 27:40 Right.

Firas Zahabi 27:40 In Vale Tudo, nobody cares. The fight will go on till somebody taps.

Joe Rogan 27:43 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 27:44 So, takedowns were not as important. The fight's gonna last three, four hours if it has to, you know? The last ... Whatever it is. Why wrestling is being so successful in MMA, one, it's a great sport for sure, but it's s- it's time-sensitive. If I take you down in the middle of the round, you got two and a half minutes to sub me or get back up to your feet. All I gotta do is hold you down, and I won the round. I have to do minimal work. Now, I'm downer ... I'm up a round, you're down a round. You, you gotta get, you gotta come after me now. So, it, it ... There's a time-sensitive issue. However, if I take you down and there's no time limit, I'm gonna behave very differently than if, if I know I can bank in this round or there's just two minutes left. I'm gonna spend that energy to hold you down. I'm gonna spend that energy to kind of, like, shut you down and kind of, like, give you little punches, that are not fight-enders but they're round-winning.

Joe Rogan 28:29 Hmm.

Firas Zahabi 28:29 So, because we have these rules ... That's why I loved Pride. It was a 10-minute round. Grappling needs more breathing room. It needs more time for it to work.

Joe Rogan 28:37 Yes. Yes.

Firas Zahabi 28:38 Like, look at Usman versus Demian Maia. In round one, Demian Maia had a partial back take against the fence, and Usman was like, almost giving his back to me.

Joe Rogan 28:45 He got fucked by the referee.

Firas Zahabi 28:47 The referee ... The state should never interfere. It's not a real fight. You got out of my controls because of the state, because of the referee, because of the, the whistle, because of the bell, whatever it is. We have to start in this position again. If, if I take you down on the ground and the bell rings, I should start again on the ground. There should be some basic positions that, uh, the referee's gonna choose, "We're starting in this position because that was the closest to what you guys had when we, when we ended the fight, the round."

Joe Rogan 29:14 I like that.

Firas Zahabi 29:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:14 I like that.

Firas Zahabi 29:15 How many fights would change? How much behavior would change? Fighters would train dif- train differently, fight differently. Or make it one 15-minute round.

Joe Rogan 29:22 I'd like that too.

Firas Zahabi 29:23 That's, that ... Now, you're gonna see Jujitsu.

Joe Rogan 29:25 You know what else I like? No cage.

Firas Zahabi 29:28 No cage?

Joe Rogan 29:28 No cage.

Firas Zahabi 29:29 Well, what's it gonna be?

Joe Rogan 29:29 How come they can play basketball on a giant court?

Firas Zahabi 29:32 (laughs) How about-

Joe Rogan 29:34 That's a big place-

Firas Zahabi 29:35 It is.

Joe Rogan 29:35 ... to play basketball.

Firas Zahabi 29:36 It is. But, uh ... Okay, because you think there should be no f- no interference with the fence?

Joe Rogan 29:40 How about a football field? Put them in the middle.

Firas Zahabi 29:42 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:43 What are the odds they're ever gonna get to the edges?

Firas Zahabi 29:45 But, okay, let's say we're ver- to get into a fight-

Joe Rogan 29:47 Okay.

Firas Zahabi 29:48 ... right here.

Joe Rogan 29:49 Well, there's a lot of shit in here.

Firas Zahabi 29:50 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 29:51 But, uh, but this is a, this is-

Firas Zahabi 29:52 How-

Joe Rogan 29:52 ... an unnatural environment. What if we get in a fight-

Firas Zahabi 29:53 Sure.

Joe Rogan 29:54 ... in an elevator?

Firas Zahabi 29:54 Sure. You can't ... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:54 Should every fight take place in an elevator?

Firas Zahabi 29:56 Yeah. Why can't you protect yourself?

Joe Rogan 29:57 One boy will never be able to move his, use his moves.

Firas Zahabi 29:59 (laughs) You should be able to protect yourself in any environment. So, I say-

Joe Rogan 30:01 You can't throw a wheel kick in an elevator.

Firas Zahabi 30:02 No, we can't, but-

Joe Rogan 30:03 But a wheel kick's a valid move.

Firas Zahabi 30:05 Absolutely. But how about this? We don't know if it's gonna be a cage, an office-

Joe Rogan 30:09 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 30:09 ... uh, uh, a podcast, an elevator.

Joe Rogan 30:11 That would be crazy.

Firas Zahabi 30:11 You sh- you'll find out on fight night.

Joe Rogan 30:13 That would be crazy.

Firas Zahabi 30:13 You'll find out on fight night. Be ready.

Joe Rogan 30:15 That would be crazy.

Firas Zahabi 30:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:16 It's just, they roll the dice before the show.

Firas Zahabi 30:18 Exactly. A giant wheel, maybe.

Joe Rogan 30:19 Yeah. Where ... Yeah, like a wheel.

Firas Zahabi 30:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:21 It's, it's like five or six different things on the wheel.

Firas Zahabi 30:23 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 30:24 It could be anything. Football field, basketball court-

Firas Zahabi 30:26 Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 30:26 ... cage, ring.

Firas Zahabi 30:27 You don't know.

Joe Rogan 30:28 Yeah. Do you remember, um ...... they, they did, uh, I think, well, World Combat Club, or World Combat League where Wonderboy came up. Chuck Norris.

Firas Zahabi 30:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:37 They had, like, a ramp.

Firas Zahabi 30:39 Bowl.

Joe Rogan 30:39 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 30:39 They called it the bowl.

Joe Rogan 30:40 Like a bowl, yeah, yeah. And you would fight on that, so they knew when they got to the elevated edges. But at least you could move. You're not restricted. But, of course, there was no grappling in that. It was just straight kick.

Firas Zahabi 30:50 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:50 That was kickboxing PKA style, right? Like above the waist, wasn't it? Or did they allow-

Firas Zahabi 30:54 Uh, no, they were leg kicks.

Joe Rogan 30:55 They were leg kicks.

Firas Zahabi 30:55 And knee.

Joe Rogan 30:56 But they wore pants, right?

Firas Zahabi 30:57 Pants?

Joe Rogan 30:58 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 30:58 And you're allowed to knee, but not allowed to clinch.

Joe Rogan 30:59 Oh, that's ... Look at this.

Firas Zahabi 31:00 Yeah, this is beautiful. This is beautiful.

Joe Rogan 31:01 Oh, Wonderboy was a master at this too.

Firas Zahabi 31:03 This was fun.

Joe Rogan 31:03 It's so interesting, though, seeing it in that bowl. But look, when you see it like that, there's no, um, there's no restriction as far as, like, there's a, there's no boundary to push up against. This is Wonderboy in his actual kickboxing style.

Firas Zahabi 31:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:17 He was so good at, like, leaning away and then firing back. And then also that right high kick that he would throw over the shoulder-

Firas Zahabi 31:25 Oh.

Joe Rogan 31:25 ... where you didn't see it coming until it was too late.

Firas Zahabi 31:27 Money-maker.

Joe Rogan 31:28 Yeah. Boy, that's a slippery-ass floor-

Firas Zahabi 31:30 But-

Joe Rogan 31:30 ... they're fighting on.

Firas Zahabi 31:31 Without the cage, we wouldn't have cage techniques anymore.

Joe Rogan 31:34 That's true. That's true, but I feel like there's a lot of wrestling that gets done against the cage-

Firas Zahabi 31:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:40 ... that's sort of assisted.

Firas Zahabi 31:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:42 It's assisted wrestling, assisted take-downs. And even take-down defense, right? It's, if you're in the middle of the cage and you get up, that, you earned that. That's legit. But if you're up against the cage, you can kinda press your back up against the cage, you can wall walk, you can get back to your feet. It's an added element. There is th- that sneaky right high kick, man.

Firas Zahabi 32:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 32:01 But this, you know, I don't know if this would work with take-downs 'cause, of course, someone would fire up and, uh-

Firas Zahabi 32:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 32:08 ... keep driving over the top.

Firas Zahabi 32:10 The takes a- take-downs change everything.

Joe Rogan 32:12 Yeah, they do. They take down ... They, the take-downs change everything. Um, so do elbows and the clinch.

Firas Zahabi 32:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 32:18 So do headbu- headbutts.

Firas Zahabi 32:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 32:19 Headbutts change everything too.

Firas Zahabi 32:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:20 You know, I had David Leduc in here, f- from Lethwei.

Firas Zahabi 32:23 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:24 And, you know, I mean, if you watch his fights-

Firas Zahabi 32:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:26 ... you l- watch some of those Lethwei fights, you realize, like, "That's legit, man."

Firas Zahabi 32:30 Rory, once he was like, uh, he was bet- between contracts and he's like, "Book me a fight at Lethwei." I'm like-

Joe Rogan 32:37 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 32:37 I'm like, "Why do you wanna fight Lethwei?" He's like, "Because now's the time or else I'll never get to fight with headbutts before I resign." He wanted me to take him down to the jungles of Le- uh, Lethwei-

Joe Rogan 32:45 Oh, Jesus, give me a-

Firas Zahabi 32:46 ... and book him a fight for $10-

Joe Rogan 32:48 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 32:49 ... against some guy we don't know. No medical test, uh, you know, "You're the foreigner."

Joe Rogan 32:53 That's hilarious.

Firas Zahabi 32:53 Uh, they wanna, you know, like, i- i- it's just ... He's nuts. I was like, "No, that's a really bad idea." He's like, "Come on, I'll never get to fight with headbutts or else." I'm like, "Okay, I hope you never fight with headbutts."

Joe Rogan 33:01 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 33:01 "I, I, I hope the day never comes."

Joe Rogan 33:03 Well, I mean, you remember the old days? Like-

Firas Zahabi 33:06 Yes.

Joe Rogan 33:06 ... with Mark Hohman? Mark Hohman used to take guys down-

Firas Zahabi 33:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:09 ... and smash their face with his head.

Firas Zahabi 33:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:11 He would hold onto their biceps and boom, headbutt you and punch you in the face. I mean-

Firas Zahabi 33:15 A very dangerous attack.

Joe Rogan 33:16 Whoo!

Firas Zahabi 33:17 Kill it.

Joe Rogan 33:17 Especially from a giant dude like that? Uh-

Firas Zahabi 33:20 Very, very dangerous.

Joe Rogan 33:21 Yeah. D- it's, it's also effective. I mean, the, the argument is, look, if you can punch me in the head, why can't I use my head to hit you, right? If you can kick me in the head, i- what is s- so much more dangerous about me using my forehead to hit you with?

Firas Zahabi 33:37 Long-term, long-term, uh, repercussion, don't you think?

Joe Rogan 33:41 I don't know.

Firas Zahabi 33:42 Would it increase the level of concussions or decrease the level of concussion?

Joe Rogan 33:46 (sighs) It's a good question.

Firas Zahabi 33:47 Because for me, that's the major sin of our sport.

Joe Rogan 33:49 The concussions.

Firas Zahabi 33:50 The concussion.

Joe Rogan 33:50 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 33:50 I wish we could take that away. If we could take that away, uh, I think we'd be better because these, d-

Joe Rogan 33:55 Oh, for sure.

Firas Zahabi 33:55 ... these fighters would be healthier, long term.

Joe Rogan 33:57 And I'm, I'm hoping that medical science somehow steps in and comes up with a solution that's legitimate, similar to a solution t- for repairing ligaments. Right? Like, if you have a ... We're not gonna outlaw heel hooks, right?

Firas Zahabi 34:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:09 They're, they're, they're a, a real legitimate part of the game, but if you get someone in an inverted heel hook and you crank on that fucker, you might rip that, that guy's knee apart. So that guy might have to go and get everything replaced and get, you know, cadaver ligaments and a fake ACL and all that jazz. W- well, we're not gonna stop that, though. It's a legitimate technique. The side kick to the knee that we see a lot of guys use on the upper thigh with it, it hyperextends the knee. There's gonna be someone who's get to, gets their knee blown out. I'm sure it's happened in other organizations. I don't think we've had it in the UFC. If they have, I haven't heard about it.

Firas Zahabi 34:40 Uh, Whittaker, no? He, uh, did he hurt his knee in a ... Oh, no, no, no.

Joe Rogan 34:43 He definitely hurt it, but I don't know-

Firas Zahabi 34:44 Yeah, no, he didn't pop it out.

Joe Rogan 34:45 ... if he get, i- if it blew out.

Firas Zahabi 34:47 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:47 And then he went and did it-

Firas Zahabi 34:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:48 ... in the rematch with Yoel-

Firas Zahabi 34:49 Yes, that's right.

Joe Rogan 34:49 ... like right away. And also, um, uh, Jorge Masvidal did that to Wonderboy. Oh no, Darren Till did it to Wonderboy.

Firas Zahabi 34:56 Oh, yes, yes. That's true.

Joe Rogan 34:57 Yes, same thing.

Firas Zahabi 34:58 That's true, that's true.

Joe Rogan 34:58 It's, that side kick to the thigh. Um, so w- if there was a way that they could repair brain damage the same way they could repair ligament damage-

Firas Zahabi 35:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:06 ... I'd be so happy. You know what I mean? So-

Firas Zahabi 35:08 Definitely.

Joe Rogan 35:09 IV, stem cell-

Firas Zahabi 35:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:11 You know, some, some way. I mean, and they're experimenting with things.

Firas Zahabi 35:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:15 And I know they're having some positive effects, but, you know, nothing is like, "Hey, you tore this. Go to the doctor, he'll fix that." You know?

Firas Zahabi 35:24 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:25 We're not there yet.

Firas Zahabi 35:26 'Cause the thing is, like, with the, with the headbutts, the fighters are gonna go and train headbutts after.

Joe Rogan 35:31 Right.

Firas Zahabi 35:32 They're gonna be hitting the bag, they're gonna be doing all these things. And what is, what is the training gonna do to their head?

Joe Rogan 35:36 Well, have you seen what, uh, Leduca does?

Firas Zahabi 35:39 No. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:39 He does headbutts on the pads.

Firas Zahabi 35:41 Uh-huh. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:41 So he'll do, like, a combination on the pad and then a headbutt.

Firas Zahabi 35:45 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 35:45 It seems okay.

Firas Zahabi 35:46 Uh, yeah, but let's see when he's 50. How's it-

Joe Rogan 35:48 (laughs) Well, he's only, like, 28.

Firas Zahabi 35:49 Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 35:50 Yeah, I mean, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 35:50 Give him a call when he's 50, let's see. Let's see, you know, like-

Joe Rogan 35:52 Oh, he won't even know what a phone is.

Firas Zahabi 35:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:54 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 35:54 What's that noise?

Joe Rogan 35:55 (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 35:55 Um, I think health first, health first.

Joe Rogan 35:58 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 35:58 For sure we're t- we're not living in a bubble. People always tell me, like some, some guy wrote me an email recently, like telling me he was in tears, he's trying to stop his kids from doing MMA. And, uh, to give them something to convince them not to do MMA because, uh, you know, there was the, the boxer had died. And, uh, you know what? The thing is, we don't wanna live in a bubble. I don't wanna live in a bubble. I, everything I do, I take a risk in life. I calculate, "Is this, is this, is this re-" Look, I'm petrified of airplanes. I'm petrified. But when I take a flight, I'm like, "Is this an acceptable risk in my life?" Yeah, it's a, it's, it's safe, it's just psychological. I'm, I'm being irrational here. And I get on that f- on that flight. Statistically, is MMA safe? It is.People don't die in MMA. It's, uh, like ... In any sport, people will die. Like you, if you look at football, there's gonna be deaths. If you look at running, there's gonna be deaths. There's death everywhere. However, it's as safe ... Statistically, it's safe. They take every measure and the referee is there. They do a medical test before and after. I mean, it's as safe as it can be. And look what it gives us. It gives us proof of what real martial arts is because before MMA, we didn't know what fighting was. Like, we had many theories, but it's not what we have today. And if you look at what we were doing before UFC, it was totally different.

Joe Rogan 37:08 Yeah, it's crazy what happened in 26 years.

Firas Zahabi 37:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:11 26 years, the world has just been flipped on its head.

Firas Zahabi 37:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:14 I've said many times that we have had more advancement and innovation and more growth in martial arts-

Firas Zahabi 37:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:19 ... over the last 26 years than we have over the last 2,000 years.

Firas Zahabi 37:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:23 And that's a fact. There's no getting around that. It's just-

Firas Zahabi 37:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:26 ... an instantaneous burst-

Firas Zahabi 37:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:28 ... of knowledge and understanding of what works and what doesn't work.

Firas Zahabi 37:30 And the Gracie family is a huge part of that.

Joe Rogan 37:33 Gigantic.

Firas Zahabi 37:34 Gigan- gigantic.

Joe Rogan 37:34 Huge. Uh, probably ... No, not probably. The most important family in the history of martial arts.

Firas Zahabi 37:40 I agree.

Joe Rogan 37:40 Yeah. I mean, there's noth- I don't even think there's a close second.

Firas Zahabi 37:42 Most influential.

Joe Rogan 37:43 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 37:43 Maybe most influential.

Joe Rogan 37:45 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 37:45 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:45 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 37:45 Influential.

Joe Rogan 37:46 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 37:46 Uh, definitely. Which, uh, reminds me of Kron Gracie's fight. What'd you think of that? Against Cub Swanson?

Joe Rogan 37:53 Um, uh, well, it's a big jump up, you know?

Firas Zahabi 37:56 Yes.

Joe Rogan 37:57 Cub Swanson, massive amount of experience.

Firas Zahabi 37:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:00 I mean-

Firas Zahabi 38:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:00 ... against elite world class competition.

Firas Zahabi 38:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:03 You know, fought Jose Aldo back in the-

Firas Zahabi 38:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:05 ... WEC days.

Firas Zahabi 38:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:06 I mean, Cub Swanson is a stud. He's-

Firas Zahabi 38:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:09 ... been there, done that.

Firas Zahabi 38:10 He could be champion, right?

Joe Rogan 38:10 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 38:11 He could be champion.

Joe Rogan 38:11 Yes. He can be champion and he's also a legitimate black belt in jujitsu too, so he's not-

Firas Zahabi 38:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:16 ... not easy to submit.

Firas Zahabi 38:17 Mm-mm.

Joe Rogan 38:17 And for Kron to go from Alex Caceres right into-

Firas Zahabi 38:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:20 ... Cub Swanson, that's a-

Firas Zahabi 38:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:22 ... giant leap. And look, Kron's jujitsu is top of the food chain. I mean, he is an absolute-

Firas Zahabi 38:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:29 ... legitimate world champion caliber jujitsu talent from the best DNA the world's ever known, right? He's the-

Firas Zahabi 38:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:37 ... fucking son of the king, right?

Firas Zahabi 38:39 Can I ... Can I ask you a very tough question?

Joe Rogan 38:41 Please.

Firas Zahabi 38:42 If there was no time limit, Cub Swanson versus Kron, who wins?

Joe Rogan 38:47 I saw no evidence that-

Firas Zahabi 38:48 I wi- I wi- I wish we could watch round three.

Joe Rogan 38:50 I saw no evidence that, uh, Kron was taking Cub down.

Firas Zahabi 38:54 No, the takedowns were not gonna come just yet. I think it would've taken a while.

Joe Rogan 38:58 Yeah, but the problem was-

Firas Zahabi 38:58 But do you think Kron was gonna, was gonna go away?

Joe Rogan 39:00 No, I don't think he's gonna go away.

Firas Zahabi 39:01 He wasn't going away.

Joe Rogan 39:02 He's an animal.

Firas Zahabi 39:02 He's, he's got a heart of a lion.

Joe Rogan 39:04 He's got a heart of a lion, takes, takes a tremendous shot-

Firas Zahabi 39:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:07 ... both to the face and to the body.

Firas Zahabi 39:08 No fear.

Joe Rogan 39:09 No fear.

Firas Zahabi 39:10 No fear.

Joe Rogan 39:10 No fear. No fear. Real warrior.

Firas Zahabi 39:12 If there was no time limit, I'm telling you, I don't know who wins that fight.

Joe Rogan 39:16 Yeah, I mean, he won a decision, right? You could always use that argument if someone wins a decision. And Kron never stopped coming, right?

Firas Zahabi 39:21 No, he didn't even look like he was ... He was-

Joe Rogan 39:23 Right.

Firas Zahabi 39:23 ... remotely gonna start thinking of slowing down.

Joe Rogan 39:26 But I mean, there's the other question is, w- how much does he endure if that fight goes 30 rounds. I mean, how many more shots to the head does he take and does eventually his brain give out?

Firas Zahabi 39:36 (laughs) I don't know. That's the question.

Joe Rogan 39:37 I don't know.

Firas Zahabi 39:38 That's the question.

Joe Rogan 39:38 I mean, maybe he catches Cub. I mean-

Firas Zahabi 39:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:40 ... he can punch.

Firas Zahabi 39:41 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:41 I mean that was the, one of the reasons why it was so competitive and interesting.

Firas Zahabi 39:44 Mm.

Joe Rogan 39:44 I mean, basically it was a kickboxing fight, right?

Firas Zahabi 39:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:47 And in that kickboxing fight, the jujitsu master landed good shots. I mean, Cub's face was cut up at the end of the fight.

Firas Zahabi 39:53 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was marked up.

Joe Rogan 39:54 It's not like he was untouched.

Firas Zahabi 39:56 Mm.

Joe Rogan 39:56 So, I think ... I mean, I think what a guy like Kron needs is a guy (laughs) like you. I mean, that's what he needs.

Firas Zahabi 40:03 I would love to work with Kron.

Joe Rogan 40:05 I mean, that's what he needs. I don't know who ... I kn- I know he does a lot of work with the Diaz brothers. I know he does a lot ... He has his own gym.

Firas Zahabi 40:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:11 He has a very successful jujitsu school of his own. But I think a guy like that needs to just put together the overall game so that-

Firas Zahabi 40:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:18 ... you could see the best expression of his jujitsu, which is, which is ultimately gonna be his strength. But it's, it, it ... I think that has to be expressed in a, a more confusing and harder to solve puzzle. And so right now, here's the puzzle. Walk towards you-

Firas Zahabi 40:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:36 ... throw punches. Once I get you, I'm gonna strangle you.

Firas Zahabi 40:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:39 But, but if I don't get you, maybe I don't strangle you. And a guy like Cub knows he's coming, so he ... The thing about a guy who comes forward all the time is it's so much easier to counter than it is to attack.

Firas Zahabi 40:51 It is.

Joe Rogan 40:51 Right? It's way easier. That's Anderson Silva's-

Firas Zahabi 40:53 It is.

Joe Rogan 40:53 ... whole game. You remember the-

Firas Zahabi 40:54 It is.

Joe Rogan 40:54 ... the fights where Anderson Silva had boring fights?

Firas Zahabi 40:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:56 Like Talis Leites.

Firas Zahabi 40:57 The guy's not coming forward.

Joe Rogan 40:58 Yeah, hung back, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 40:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:59 Guys who just hang back.

Firas Zahabi 41:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:02 You know? Um, Patrick Cote, same thing.

Firas Zahabi 41:05 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:05 Just hung back. Hung back.

Firas Zahabi 41:06 When you're fighting a counterpuncher-

Joe Rogan 41:08 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 41:08 ... don't, don't give him anything to count.

Joe Rogan 41:09 Just hang back.

Firas Zahabi 41:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:10 Yeah. Make him attack.

Firas Zahabi 41:11 I remember when you had Rickson on your podcast and you had asked him, like, "What do you do if you can't take a guy down?" And he was telling you, "I pull guard."

Joe Rogan 41:19 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 41:19 But then he was telling you also, "When I pull guard, I have to open the guard." And it was like, well then I gotta just back outta your guard.

Joe Rogan 41:24 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 41:25 If you, if you pull guard on me and you keep your guard closed, well, okay, we're on the ground. If you open your guard, I can just get up.

Joe Rogan 41:32 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 41:32 And it seemed like ... And then you were like, "Okay, if he gets up, well, I gotta pull guard again." But it was like a circular type of strategy.

Joe Rogan 41:39 We don't know-

Firas Zahabi 41:39 You know?

Joe Rogan 41:40 ... with Rickson, right? Because we never did see him against the cream of the crop.

Firas Zahabi 41:45 Mm.

Joe Rogan 41:46 You know? Funaki was the best fighter he fought.

Firas Zahabi 41:48 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:48 And Funaki was arguably towards the end of his career when he fought Rickson and, you know, he did some damage, broke Rickson's orbital. Remember he had that really fucked up swelling-

Firas Zahabi 41:58 Did he win? He hurt him? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:59 I didn't hear Rickson.

Firas Zahabi 42:00 His, eye was all fucked up-

Joe Rogan 42:00 Oh, I didn't hear that.

Firas Zahabi 42:01 ... and swollen after that fight.

Joe Rogan 42:01 Mm-hmm. I have to go re-watch it. And, uh, he also fucked Rickson's knee up. Or he ... Rickson fucked his knee up. Oh, no, no, no. He ... Rickson fucked his knee up. I'm sorry. He was standing up over Rickson and Rickson kicked his knee.

Firas Zahabi 42:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 42:12 Like he extended his knee when, when Rickson was on his back. But, um, no, at the end of the fight, Rickson's like ... See, go to, uh, Coliseum 2000 Rickson Gracie.

Firas Zahabi 42:20 2000?

Joe Rogan 42:21 I had a, uh ... I had the honor of going to Rickson's house one night.

Firas Zahabi 42:25 Really?

Joe Rogan 42:26 I had dinner with him and Kron ... Kron was a young kid, man.

Firas Zahabi 42:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 42:29 He was like 15, 16 years old. And then we went to Rickson's house and then we watched fights. And Rickson was, uh, breaking down fights.

Firas Zahabi 42:36 Mm.

Joe Rogan 42:36 Breaking down what other guys were doing wrong.

Firas Zahabi 42:38 Mm.

Joe Rogan 42:39 Breaking down space, like he hated space.

Firas Zahabi 42:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 42:41 Like when jujitsu guys got people on the ground.

Firas Zahabi 42:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 42:43 And, uh, you know, he was just talking about various positions and, and different things that were happening in the fights. And then we watched that fight. We watched the Funaki fight.

Firas Zahabi 42:51 Mm.

Joe Rogan 42:51 Which was ... That was his final fight. So-This was Rickson basically, you know, in his prime. And back then, I mean, he was muscular too, man. Rickson was a big-

Firas Zahabi 43:03 Oh.

Joe Rogan 43:03 ... guy back then, well over 200 pounds.

Firas Zahabi 43:05 He was chiseled. Was he 200 pounds?

Joe Rogan 43:06 Yeah, he was about 200 pounds, like, but solid as a rock, man. And-

Firas Zahabi 43:10 His physique's incredible.

Joe Rogan 43:11 Yeah. And he fought... I mean, Funaki was a real world-class fighter.

Firas Zahabi 43:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:17 This was probably the guy who was the most dangerous guy that he fought. I mean, when he fought in Japan, Vale Tudo, those guys just really had nothing for him.

Firas Zahabi 43:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:25 The one guy who got him in a guillotine, remember?

Firas Zahabi 43:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:27 And held onto him for a long time-

Firas Zahabi 43:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:28 ... but he eventually got out of it and submitted him.

Firas Zahabi 43:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:30 That guy was a Japanese pro wrestler, right?

Firas Zahabi 43:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:33 But...

Firas Zahabi 43:33 But that's what they had also at that time.

Joe Rogan 43:34 Mm-hmm, yeah.

Firas Zahabi 43:35 Like, he, like-

Joe Rogan 43:36 Well, Takada.

Firas Zahabi 43:38 Takada? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:39 Yeah, remember he was-

Firas Zahabi 43:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:39 ... the first, the first Pride people forget was Rickson Gracie.

Firas Zahabi 43:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:43 Rickson Gracie fought Takada in the first Pride. So eventually this fight goes to the ground. Scoot ahead real quick. Eventually this fight goes to the ground and Funaki landed a big shot. And he... See, Rickson's eye was all fucked up. You could see it... Well, I don't know if you can see it there. No, you got to see it after the fight. After the fight he gets him on the ground and he reverses position, and then he, he eventually chokes him completely to sleep.

Firas Zahabi 44:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:09 Back up a little bit, because it's-

Firas Zahabi 44:10 With his eyes open.

Joe Rogan 44:10 ... it was pretty radical.

Firas Zahabi 44:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:12 So here he is, he gets...

Firas Zahabi 44:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:15 See if you can see right before this. Go right before this, Jamie, right before this, so you can see the setup. So he's punching him, he's gift wrapped in him.

Firas Zahabi 44:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:22 He's got his hand wrapped across his neck, punching him in the face. So he's got Funaki's hand across his own face and he's punching him in the face, and then Funaki's forced to try to move to, uh, better his position. And Rickson eventually sneaks his body behind him. You see he's using his left knee and sliding, and now he turns him and he gets his back. Shitty camera work there, they should've showed that transition.

Firas Zahabi 44:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:46 But he got his back, and then when he chokes him out, Funaki's eyes are wide open and he's completely asleep. And Rickson gets off of him and kicks him aside.

Firas Zahabi 44:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:54 It's so nasty. Look, he gets him and he... And look, Funaki like kinda knew he was getting put to sleep too.

Firas Zahabi 45:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:00 So he's out cold, and Rickson just climbs off and kicks him off. "Get off me."

Firas Zahabi 45:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:05 "Get off me, bitch." But you see his eye, like when they, uh, close... If you see, if, if there's a close up on him-

Firas Zahabi 45:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:11 ... Rickson's eye, like after the fight-

Guest (secondary clip/excerpt) 45:13 Close it out.

Joe Rogan 45:14 Yeah. Rickson, not, not Funaki. After the fight, his eye was pretty fucked up. Right there.

Firas Zahabi 45:18 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:18 Right there. There you see it. See it?

Firas Zahabi 45:20 I don't remember that though.

Joe Rogan 45:20 Yeah, his left eye was completely swollen.

Firas Zahabi 45:23 What did he get hit with? I don't remember him getting hit with.

Joe Rogan 45:24 Punch.

Firas Zahabi 45:25 It was a punch?

Joe Rogan 45:26 I believe so. Yeah, I, I believe he got hit with a big punch from Funaki. You know, Rickson was never a guy who was trying to kick box you. Y- you know?

Firas Zahabi 45:33 No.

Joe Rogan 45:33 He wasn't trying to do what his son did at all.

Firas Zahabi 45:35 No.

Joe Rogan 45:35 Rickson was always just trying to figure out-

Firas Zahabi 45:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:37 ... a way to be defensive just enough-

Firas Zahabi 45:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:39 ... to impose his game and get you on the ground.

Firas Zahabi 45:42 All the black belts that ever worked with Rickson, they always say the same thing, "We got killed."

Joe Rogan 45:46 Yeah. All of them.

Firas Zahabi 45:46 Like world champion black belts that go train with him-

Joe Rogan 45:48 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 45:48 ... they go roll with him, they're like, "Oh, he killed us all."

Joe Rogan 45:50 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 45:50 "He killed us all." There was, uh, you know, like, 20 years ago, the Gracies used to get together, like, once every year, every two years to train. And, uh, Erik Paulson was invited and he said in an article, I remember reading this article when I was really young. He was saying that, "Look, uh, we don't say what happens in that practice. Obviously it's a family thing, so I was, I'm not gonna be saying what happens, but one thing I can tell you all, nobody came near Rickson. Like, nobody could touch Rickson. Rickson was the, you know, head and shoulders above everybody. And the reason why they could say that is 'cause everybody admits to it and it's like an open secret."

Joe Rogan 46:19 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 46:19 "You know, everybody knows Rickson's way better than everybody else." And, uh, just hearing those stories growing up and you're like, "Man, this guy, how good is he?" You know, "Can we see him actually fight?" You know? And then you have these clips where, look, it's, it's one sided, but that was a different time and place. But, uh, then again, that's... I- if he was training today, he would probably be kickboxing too.

Joe Rogan 46:36 Yes, I'm sure.

Firas Zahabi 46:37 He'd be... I think he'd be crazy not to.

Joe Rogan 46:38 I'm sure.

Firas Zahabi 46:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:39 But then also he wouldn't... I mean, he hadn't had any fights in a cage.

Firas Zahabi 46:44 No.

Joe Rogan 46:44 All of his fights were in the ring. In the ring-

Firas Zahabi 46:46 No cage.

Joe Rogan 46:46 ... there's, there's a lot more you can do in terms of movement. You can slide through the ropes a little to avoid things. It's also harder to take someone down. There's a lot of weird things that happen inside of a ring. The... You could argue that a ring is better for the view 'cause you can see straight through to the fighters, but it's also more dangerous-

Firas Zahabi 47:04 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:04 ... 'cause you could fall through the ring-

Firas Zahabi 47:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:06 ... you know, and the ropes.

Firas Zahabi 47:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:07 You know? I mean, even in boxing you occasionally see that where... Bernard Hopkins' last fight, when he fought Joe Smith, he got KO'd by f- going through the rope-

Firas Zahabi 47:15 Oh yeah, I saw how that went down.

Joe Rogan 47:16 ... and he fell and hit his head.

Firas Zahabi 47:17 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 47:18 He fell, like, right on his fucking head on the concrete floor.

Firas Zahabi 47:21 Oh.

Joe Rogan 47:21 At, like, 50 years old, you know?

Firas Zahabi 47:23 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 47:24 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 47:24 Yeah, no, no, rings can be-

Joe Rogan 47:25 Ropes are weird.

Firas Zahabi 47:25 Yes. There's one guy who died in Thailand many years ago. He ran forward charging and he did a kick, went over the guy's head, flew out of the ring, hit the table and died.

Joe Rogan 47:36 Oh, Jesus Christ.

Firas Zahabi 47:36 That's why in Thailand now you're not allowed to run anymore. If I catch a kick, I'm allowed one step forward, not three steps charging across the, the ring like they used to. Before you could run across the ring. So I catch a leg, I go, run across the ring, flying elbow, flying knee, whatever I want.

Joe Rogan 47:49 Wow.

Firas Zahabi 47:49 Now it's like you're allowed one or three steps. I can't remember what it-

Joe Rogan 47:52 So it's like traveling in basketball.

Firas Zahabi 47:53 Yeah, you can't just charge through 'cause the ring can't contain.

Joe Rogan 47:56 Oh. That... Yeah, that makes sense. Well-

Firas Zahabi 47:58 You could fly right through the ropes.

Joe Rogan 47:59 I like what Bellator did. What Bellator did for their kickboxing events when they had kickboxing and MMA in the same-

Firas Zahabi 48:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:05 ... weekend, they put the kickboxing ring inside that-

Firas Zahabi 48:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:08 ... gigantic circular pad.

Firas Zahabi 48:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:10 So even if you fell through the ropes, you just landed on the outside pad, which is so-

Firas Zahabi 48:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:14 ... much superior.

Firas Zahabi 48:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:15 It's so much better. I just, uh-

Firas Zahabi 48:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:17 ... I feel like we haven't really found the perfect fighting surface.

Firas Zahabi 48:21 No. I like our idea, the podcast, the elevator-

Joe Rogan 48:24 I like that. (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 48:24 ... the football field. You don't know. Just spin a wheel, you might be in a moat.

Joe Rogan 48:27 Spin a wheel, spin a wheel's a great idea.

Firas Zahabi 48:28 Now we know if you really can adapt to anything.

Joe Rogan 48:30 Yeah, that's a great idea, right? You take a guy who's like a Mighty Mouse guy, who's like a phenomenal mover-

Firas Zahabi 48:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:35 ... and now he's got to fight in an elevator.

Firas Zahabi 48:37 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 48:37 Now what happens? Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 48:38 Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 48:39 Yeah, um, there's, there's no... I mean, there's no, there's no... I don't... I see, I see, like, I see fights that happen, uh, overseas in, with, like, one FC allows fights in a cage, but with soccer kicks.

Firas Zahabi 48:55 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:56 And the argument against that I think would be that you can't get your head out of the way. Like, if you're trapped up against the cage, like, at least in-... in, in Pride or in K-1 when they had f-fought in the ring, if you're on the ground, you can move your head through the ropes.

Firas Zahabi 49:11 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:11 You can... You've, you've got a little bit of motion. But if your head is stuck and someone soccer kicks you or stomps you?

Firas Zahabi 49:18 It's too dangerous, in my opinion. I think that's one, one maneuver I, I... And look, we gotta draw a line somewhere. You know? We have to decide, what's, what... Like, what are we gonna do next? Poke each other in the eye?

Joe Rogan 49:26 Did you ever see Roger Huerta's KO in, when he got knocked out in, uh, ONE FC? It was brutal, man. He fought this-

Firas Zahabi 49:32 I, I did see that.

Joe Rogan 49:32 ... really big guy from Brazil. He was fighting at 170. You know, Roger fought at 155 in the UFC.

Firas Zahabi 49:38 Yeah, yeah. I trained Roger for a little bit, yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:39 Not, not the biggest guy in the world.

Firas Zahabi 49:41 No.

Joe Rogan 49:41 And he fought this guy who was much, much bigger than him.

Firas Zahabi 49:43 Mm.

Joe Rogan 49:43 And he got caught, he got hurt, and then when he went down, the guy soccer kicked him.

Firas Zahabi 49:47 Oh.

Joe Rogan 49:47 And not just a soccer kick. A soccer kick where he hits him in the... He's already hurt. He hits him in the neck and his head, his whole body moves from the kick.

Firas Zahabi 49:56 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 49:56 Where it's just, like, full power to the head, on the ground, and there's something about soccer kicks that just-

Firas Zahabi 50:04 There's too much leverage there.

Joe Rogan 50:05 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 50:06 Like, if I ask you to break a baseball bat, you can do it if I hold it low.

Joe Rogan 50:10 Right.

Firas Zahabi 50:10 If I hold it high, you'd better be a incredible kicker-

Joe Rogan 50:12 Right.

Firas Zahabi 50:12 ... because you don't have as much leverage now.

Joe Rogan 50:13 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 50:15 So if somebody falls down and I kick him in the head as he's down, I could really put him out. Like, I-

Joe Rogan 50:19 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 50:19 ... I mean, I could, I could send him to the morgue, even.

Joe Rogan 50:22 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 50:22 So I think it's one technique we have to be very careful about.

Joe Rogan 50:25 Yeah, because I think a wheel kick has more power, but it's-

Firas Zahabi 50:28 Mm.

Joe Rogan 50:28 ... so hard to land.

Firas Zahabi 50:29 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 50:29 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 50:29 Whereas a soccer kick's gonna happen often.

Joe Rogan 50:31 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 50:32 I remember watching Wanderlei, his first fight with, with Benson Henderson. Uh, not Benson, uh, Dan Henderson, excuse me.

Joe Rogan 50:37 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 50:38 Uh, I thought it was (stutters) like, that was just almost a murder. Like, you see that fight?

Joe Rogan 50:42 Right, right, right. Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 50:42 Like, he's stomping on him to soccer... I was like-

Joe Rogan 50:44 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 50:44 ... "My goodness, what are they gonna do to stop this, stop this fight?" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:47 Well, that was the old days, man.

Firas Zahabi 50:49 Mm-hmm, right.

Joe Rogan 50:49 The old days of Pride-

Firas Zahabi 50:50 Mm.

Joe Rogan 50:51 ... where Wa- And that was Wanderlei with, like, one eye completely swollen shut.

Firas Zahabi 50:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:54 Remember that? I mean, any reasonable organization would have stopped that fight.

Firas Zahabi 50:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:59 They would have looked at his eye like, "You can't see a goddamn thing out of that eye."

Firas Zahabi 51:02 They're too scared of him to stop the fight.

Joe Rogan 51:03 Oh, well, Wandel... That was Wanderlei when he was Wanderlei.

Firas Zahabi 51:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:06 You know? I mean, you wanna talk about a guy whose face, just from sheer impacts, made a tre- Y- His face changed.

Firas Zahabi 51:13 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:14 Like, radically. Like, it flattened out.

Firas Zahabi 51:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:17 Everything flattened. His nose flattened. Just pull it up. Would you find the fight? Yeah, here it is. Boom. Show that again. Watch this.

Firas Zahabi 51:24 Oh.

Joe Rogan 51:24 So he's already hurt. Watch this. (clicks tongue) Boom.

Firas Zahabi 51:27 Oh-yeeesh.

Joe Rogan 51:29 I mean, that, that is horrific.

Firas Zahabi 51:30 No, I didn't see this one.

Joe Rogan 51:31 Oh, it's horrific, man. And he was, he was hurt before that. He was getting beat up.

Firas Zahabi 51:35 Mm, he was.

Joe Rogan 51:36 He was getting beat up and kneed and punched. And look how much bigger that dude is.

Firas Zahabi 51:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:39 I mean, he's, he's, like, r- really on Queer Street before he even goes to the ground. He gets rag-dolled to the ground and then look at this. Boom! (clicks tongue) I mean, horrific. Horrific.

Firas Zahabi 51:52 Yeah, tough, tough, uh, fight.

Joe Rogan 51:53 Well, I mean, Brandon Veras won fights like that in, um, ONE as a heavyweight with soccer kicks too, which is even more scary.

Firas Zahabi 52:01 He looked at the ref before kicking him in the face.

Joe Rogan 52:02 Yeah, because they give you a clear or not clear.

Firas Zahabi 52:04 Mm.

Joe Rogan 52:04 Because apparently sometimes you can head kick a guy on the ground, soccer kick him, sometimes you can't.

Firas Zahabi 52:09 Oh.

Joe Rogan 52:09 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 52:10 Well, that should have been a no-go.

Joe Rogan 52:11 Yeah. I would have, I would have imagined-

Firas Zahabi 52:12 You stop the fight.

Joe Rogan 52:12 He should have stopped that fight.

Firas Zahabi 52:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:13 I mean, it looked like he was just so badly hurt.

Firas Zahabi 52:16 And it's happening so fast.

Joe Rogan 52:17 It's so hard to tell, too, 'cause you got guys like Frankie Edgar when he fought Gray Maynard-

Firas Zahabi 52:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:21 ... he's like look, looks like he's out on that first round-

Firas Zahabi 52:24 That's why-

Joe Rogan 52:24 ... and then he comes back and wins the fight.

Firas Zahabi 52:25 Yeah. Yeah, if it's a title fight, I understand they let it go a little further.

Joe Rogan 52:28 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 52:29 'Cause that's a once in a lifetime opportunity.

Joe Rogan 52:30 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 52:31 But if there's no title on the line, which I, I think that fight there wasn't-

Joe Rogan 52:34 Right.

Firas Zahabi 52:34 ... I would have stopped it after he fell down, like, looking drunk, you know?

Joe Rogan 52:37 Yes. Yeah, i- well, also, you gotta take into consideration the size difference, the fact that one guy's just pummeling him, and he's almost too tough for his own good.

Firas Zahabi 52:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:46 And Roger is not gonna quit. He's just-

Firas Zahabi 52:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:48 He's gonna go out in a shield.

Firas Zahabi 52:49 Mm.

Joe Rogan 52:51 But yeah, so soccer kicks, that's a, that's a tough one, right?

Firas Zahabi 52:55 Phew. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:56 What about soccer kicks in a football field? No? Still no?

Firas Zahabi 52:58 (laughs) Uh, we're rolling the wheel.

Joe Rogan 53:01 But still, but that... In that situation, if you're rolling the wheel, like... In that situation, it really doesn't matter if that's a ring or a cage. That's just a soccer kick.

Firas Zahabi 53:07 Mm.

Joe Rogan 53:07 And that's a horrific technique.

Firas Zahabi 53:09 I agree. They're all dangerous, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:10 Yeah. That, that can end your life.

Firas Zahabi 53:13 Yeah, exactly. That's why, I mean, I would draw the line there.

Joe Rogan 53:14 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 53:14 Like, I w- I w- I would... I want, I want us to find a balance of rules that take away concussions as much as possible, because some guys are too tough for their own good, and then they're gonna go out there and practice it.

Joe Rogan 53:24 Right.

Firas Zahabi 53:25 So they're gonna be like, "Oh, we should soccer ki- kick each other in practice." It's, it's not just that fight night, you know? They're gonna do it in practice.

Joe Rogan 53:31 Right, of course. Yeah, well, wheel kicks. I mean, I remember in TaeKwonDo training, gu- even guys would try to pull a kick.

Firas Zahabi 53:37 Mm, you could still-

Joe Rogan 53:37 They'd walk into that and you'd accidentally hit 'em-

Firas Zahabi 53:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:40 ... and people would go to sleep. And, but all the time. It's just there's too much power in the leg. There's too much weight, too mu- And the leverage of a... You remember when Edson Barboza fought Terri Edoum?

Firas Zahabi 53:50 Yes.

Joe Rogan 53:50 Which was the first ever wheel kick KO.

Firas Zahabi 53:52 Was it the first one?

Joe Rogan 53:53 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 53:53 Yes.

Joe Rogan 53:54 Yes, first ever KO, in Brazil.

Firas Zahabi 53:56 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:56 And, uh, he connected with that wheel kick and Terri went stiff-

Firas Zahabi 54:00 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 54:00 ... like someone just pulled the power cord.

Firas Zahabi 54:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:02 And just fell back.

Firas Zahabi 54:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:04 And, uh, it was a crazy fight, because, like, Terri really didn't have anything for him.

Firas Zahabi 54:10 Mm.

Joe Rogan 54:10 And I, and I was just saying that he's gonna have to risk getting knocked out-

Firas Zahabi 54:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:14 ... in order to do something. He's gonna have to... And right when I said "risk getting knocked out," whack, he landed that crazy wheel kick. But that's one of those kicks where you go, "Okay, should that even be legal?" Of course I think it should be legal.

Firas Zahabi 54:25 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it-

Joe Rogan 54:26 You know, uh, uh, it's a, it's a beautiful technique, but man, that's a horrible thing to get hit with.

Firas Zahabi 54:32 Mm.

Joe Rogan 54:33 It's just hard to do.

Firas Zahabi 54:34 It's probably... I mean, it's among the most powerful kicks in the game.

Joe Rogan 54:37 Mm-hmm.

Firas Zahabi 54:38 Like, there's no doubt.

Joe Rogan 54:39 For sure, for sure.

Firas Zahabi 54:39 But it's not easy to execute. That's why most people don't do it.

Joe Rogan 54:42 Yeah, there's not a lot of guys that can throw it with the kind of speed and precision-

Firas Zahabi 54:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:47 ... that also have real MMA skills.

Firas Zahabi 54:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:49 That's what it does.

Firas Zahabi 54:50 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 54:51 Yeah. I mean, Wonderboy being one of the example-

Firas Zahabi 54:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:53 ... and one of the... I mean, remember when he fought, uh, Jake Ellenberger and he hit him with a wheel kick?

Firas Zahabi 54:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:56 And that was a crazy fight because Ellenberger was talking shit, saying that those things don't work.

Firas Zahabi 55:00 Ah, it's boring.

Joe Rogan 55:00 All that spinning stuff doesn't work. And then, of course, that's what he hit him with.

Firas Zahabi 55:03 It can work if you know how to stay standing.

Joe Rogan 55:05 It's also like ... Say whatever you want, that's Wonderboy. Okay? That's a, that's not a regular dude-

Firas Zahabi 55:11 No.

Joe Rogan 55:11 ... you're fighting. You might say spinning shit doesn't work. Well, if it's, you know, Mike McFuckstick-

Firas Zahabi 55:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:17 ... from, you know, Chicago, who's never really taken martial arts classes-

Firas Zahabi 55:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:21 ... like that and doesn't really, doesn't have a background in karate.

Firas Zahabi 55:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:25 But Wonderboy can do some wild shit with his legs.

Firas Zahabi 55:27 Mm-hmm. He's not 67-0 in kickboxing for nothing.

Joe Rogan 55:30 (laughs) That's crazy.

Firas Zahabi 55:30 They didn't give him those 67 wins.

Joe Rogan 55:32 That's a crazy record.

Firas Zahabi 55:33 They weren't, they weren't bought. They weren't purchased.

Joe Rogan 55:34 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 55:34 You know? He had to go out-

Joe Rogan 55:35 You could watch them.

Firas Zahabi 55:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:36 You could watch the fights.

Firas Zahabi 55:37 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 55:37 They're online. (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 55:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:39 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 55:39 I think sometimes guys say things like that just to pump themselves up because they're-

Joe Rogan 55:42 Of course.

Firas Zahabi 55:43 ... they're scared, they're worried, they're ... you know.

Joe Rogan 55:44 Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 55:46 You know?

Joe Rogan 55:46 It's interesting that we're starting to see the level of female MMA really elevate now.

Firas Zahabi 55:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:51 And like, uh, of course Amanda, you know, Amanda Nunes, who fights, she fights in December.

Firas Zahabi 55:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:57 Right?

Firas Zahabi 55:57 De Randamie.

Joe Rogan 55:57 She's fighting ... Which is a really good fight, man, that a lot of people aren't talking about.

Firas Zahabi 56:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:01 Germaine de Randamie is a beast.

Firas Zahabi 56:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:03 She's really good, man. Super, super technical.

Firas Zahabi 56:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:06 You know, she'd beat a man. She beat a man.

Firas Zahabi 56:08 She fought a man, right? Ine-

Joe Rogan 56:09 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 56:09 Yeah, she did fight a man.

Joe Rogan 56:10 She beat him. Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 56:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:11 She fought a guy and beat him. I think she stopped him. I think she KO'd him.

Firas Zahabi 56:14 Yeah. Wouldn't surprise me.

Joe Rogan 56:15 That wouldn't surprise me either, man. She's super, super technical.

Firas Zahabi 56:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:19 Yeah. Um, but Amanda and Valentina Shevchenko, they represent the highest level right now.

Firas Zahabi 56:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:25 And, and Weili Zhang, right?

Firas Zahabi 56:27 Yes.

Joe Rogan 56:27 As you say, Zhang Weili.

Firas Zahabi 56:29 As-

Joe Rogan 56:29 After she ... I mean, when she won the title like that, I was like, "Holy shit." Like, that's another one. I mean, and that woman being from China-

Firas Zahabi 56:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:36 ... where martial arts is so gigantic over there and representing like that, woo.

Firas Zahabi 56:39 She must be a mega star there now.

Joe Rogan 56:41 Oh my God.

Firas Zahabi 56:42 She must be a mega star.

Joe Rogan 56:44 Oh my God. And to win that way, with such a spectacular knockout like that?

Firas Zahabi 56:49 Wow.

Joe Rogan 56:49 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 56:50 And, and there's a shortage of women, and not only is (laughs) there a shortage of women, she's a champion, world champion-

Joe Rogan 56:55 I know, right?

Firas Zahabi 56:55 ... in UFC. And she knocks people out. She's gotta be like ultra star there.

Joe Rogan 57:00 Oh, she's gotta be gigantic too. Yeah. Just gigantic. Huge star.

Firas Zahabi 57:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:05 Yeah, I mean, and then, you know, as the UFC's making its way through China, to have someone like that as their champion.

Firas Zahabi 57:10 Sh-

Joe Rogan 57:10 Oh my God.

Firas Zahabi 57:11 I heard they'd build a PI there three times bigger than the one in, in, uh, Vegas.

Joe Rogan 57:14 Yeah, it's huge. Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 57:15 I haven't seen it, but, uh ...

Joe Rogan 57:17 I've seen it online. I-

Firas Zahabi 57:18 Yeah?

Joe Rogan 57:18 The only v- one I've seen in person is the one here.

Firas Zahabi 57:20 Mm.

Joe Rogan 57:20 But fuck.

Firas Zahabi 57:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:22 The one of the ... It's so impressive, the one in Vegas. All the different state-of-the-art techniques-

Firas Zahabi 57:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:26 ... for recovery, and even those little pods you take naps in.

Firas Zahabi 57:30 Uh, that I haven't seen. They have that?

Joe Rogan 57:31 Oh, if I lived in Vegas, man, that would be the spot.

Firas Zahabi 57:33 Mm.

Joe Rogan 57:34 You know, if you're a fighter and you were living in Vegas, that's the spot to train.

Firas Zahabi 57:37 Yeah, yeah. I've been there a few times. They're, they're really good.

Joe Rogan 57:39 Yeah. Um, listen man, Kevin Lee, coming up to you worked out. (laughs)

Firas Zahabi 57:45 Thank you, by the way.

Joe Rogan 57:46 My pleasure.

Firas Zahabi 57:46 I appreciate it.

Joe Rogan 57:47 I knew it.

Firas Zahabi 57:47 You set us up together.

Joe Rogan 57:48 I knew-

Firas Zahabi 57:49 I-

Joe Rogan 57:49 ... it though.

Firas Zahabi 57:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:49 When I was talking to him, I knew he was like a little bit lost and trying to figure out-

Firas Zahabi 57:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:53 ... his way. And I said, "Man, you need a head coach." And I'm like, "Who fights like you? George."

Firas Zahabi 57:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:59 George St-Pierre.

Firas Zahabi 58:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:00 I mean, not saying he's the same level as George, but it's ... George fights like that with wrestling and great striking and submissions, he mixes it all up, he's unpredictable in his attacks. I'm like, they're very similar.

Firas Zahabi 58:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:14 They're ... Neither one of them are particularly long, both guys are very physically strong. I'm like, "Come on, man." Like this, this is the guy.

Firas Zahabi 58:21 He, he, he has a great training team already. He doesn't have somebody to kind of put it all together.

Joe Rogan 58:25 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 58:26 And you know, we're talking about styles and level, he's a, he's a bit of a ... Like his personality is a wildcat. Like he's a, he's a, you know, he's a, he's a, he's a commando. And me, I'm the opposite. I'm like calculated, I'm a scalpel.

Joe Rogan 58:39 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 58:39 He's a chainsaw and a sca- ... Together it makes a great, uh, blend.

Joe Rogan 58:42 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 58:42 'Cause you need, you need both.

Joe Rogan 58:43 Little bit of discipline, little bit of wildness.

Firas Zahabi 58:44 Yes.

Joe Rogan 58:45 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 58:45 There's a time and place for both.

Joe Rogan 58:46 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 58:47 So like, his last fight, I was happy he stayed disciplined.

Joe Rogan 58:50 Very so.

Firas Zahabi 58:50 Very disciplined.

Joe Rogan 58:50 Very, very much so. Very much so.

Firas Zahabi 58:52 And he could become world champion if he's disciplined, 'cause George was very disciplined.

Joe Rogan 58:56 Yes.

Firas Zahabi 58:57 He didn't veer off the w- uh, the game plan at all. And he, he got the job done with the KOs.

Joe Rogan 59:03 I also told him, all that shit that he does where he's getting, moving up to the cage and he's dancing around and going crazy, I'm like-

Firas Zahabi 59:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:10 ... "Abandon that shit." I go, "Come out like a fucking samurai, man."

Firas Zahabi 59:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:12 "You got some serious work to do."

Firas Zahabi 59:14 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:14 All that stuff is complicating your mind.

Firas Zahabi 59:16 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:17 'Cause then you have to think, "Oh, well all I did ... If I c- uh, lose right now, I'm gonna look stupid with all that dancing."

Firas Zahabi 59:22 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:22 And, and just all this pretending that you're not feeling the f- the feeling-

Firas Zahabi 59:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:27 ... that you're feeling right now. You're feeling this incredible moment 'cause you-

Firas Zahabi 59:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:30 ... six months of preparation, getting ready for this one moment. Here it is. Embrace what that is. Go zen, man.

Firas Zahabi 59:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:38 Be, be empty.

Firas Zahabi 59:39 And he was like that the whole training camp. Like he was very focused for this one.

Joe Rogan 59:42 You could tell.

Firas Zahabi 59:43 Yes.

Joe Rogan 59:43 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 59:43 And I w- I was really happy 'cause I like guys who come in the gym and work. They don't skip practice and ... Like if guys sh- tell me, "Oh, I'm, I'm, I'm not in today," for whatever reason, I let them ... Okay, you don't wanna be in, you don't wanna be in. Like I'll, I'll tell them, "Look, I think you should be in but you don't wanna come in. What can I do?"

Joe Rogan 59:58 Right.

Firas Zahabi 59:58 But he was very disciplined. He came to all the practices and i- it worked out beautifully, like exactly-

Joe Rogan 1:00:04 How, how old is he now?

Firas Zahabi 1:00:05 Uh, maybe late 20s now. I'm not even sure.

Joe Rogan 1:00:08 I think he ... I wanna say he's 26.

Firas Zahabi 1:00:11 Mid-20s? Mid-20s.

Joe Rogan 1:00:12 How old is Kevin Lee? 27. 27?

Firas Zahabi 1:00:15 27.

Joe Rogan 1:00:15 What's his birthday? September. September. Okay, so he-

Firas Zahabi 1:00:18 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:18 ... just turned 27.

Firas Zahabi 1:00:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:19 Yeah. He's fucking not even in his prime.

Firas Zahabi 1:00:22 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:22 You know? And-

Firas Zahabi 1:00:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:23 ... he's also experienced failure.

Firas Zahabi 1:00:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:26 And experienced fights where he didn't live up as, to his potential. And I think-

Firas Zahabi 1:00:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:29 ... that ultimately will be a motivating force.

Firas Zahabi 1:00:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:32 Because we see what he can do when he's really focused, that ... Gregor Gillespie is a dangerous fight, man. People ... You know, I mean, people see that spectacular head kick knockout and they don't understand how good Gregor Gillespie is. That kid is a savage. And so when I found out that Kevin was gonna fight Gregor in his fight back to 155 ...

Firas Zahabi 1:00:50 Not a good comeback fight.

Joe Rogan 1:00:51 Dangerous comeback fight.

Firas Zahabi 1:00:52 Yeah, very high risk comeback fight.

Joe Rogan 1:00:53 Very high risk. And also getting down to 155, what did you guys do differently to get him down to 155 easily this time?

Firas Zahabi 1:01:00 Um, we kind of put our heads together, you know. Uh, Dewey Cooper, his trainer, is really great. He's-

Joe Rogan 1:01:05 Fantastic kickboxer.

Firas Zahabi 1:01:06 A- amazing. Amazing.

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 Yeah.

Firas Zahabi 1:01:07 I love working with him. Brilliant guy. His brother Keith, we kind of like got our heads together and we're like, "Look, we gotta keep losing weight at this rate."... no matter what it takes. And, um, if he, if he protests, like, you know, if he wants to, like, ease up, we'll listen to it, but we... He's gotta, he's gotta bite the bullet at one point. Like, w- we can't go fall behind this rate of losing weight. We have to lose a pound an hour. Every hour, we have to lose one pound. And, uh, like, at a certain point, now, now it's a pound an hour.

Joe Rogan 1:01:34 You talking about for the weight cut?

Firas Zahabi 1:01:36 Weight cut, yeah, weight cut.

Joe Rogan 1:01:37 Right. But what is he coming in at? Like, what is like-

Firas Zahabi 1:01:39 Uh...

Joe Rogan 1:01:40 ... when he, when he... the week of the fight on Monday morning, what is he weighing in at?

Firas Zahabi 1:01:43 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:43 You got it on your phone?

Firas Zahabi 1:01:44 Yeah, I have it here. So-

Joe Rogan 1:01:46 He looked a little smaller, but healthy.

Firas Zahabi 1:01:50 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:01:50 He didn't, didn't look sucked in. He didn't look like he depleted himself. Did he do anything different in terms of, like, weight lifting or-

Firas Zahabi 1:01:57 Um-

Joe Rogan 1:01:57 ... running, extra running?

Firas Zahabi 1:01:59 W- I wouldn't lift weights if