JRE MMA Show #87 with Kamaru Usman

Joe Rogan 0:00 Three, two, one... Champ! What's up? How are ya?

Kamaru Usman 0:06 What's up, Joe? How are you?

Joe Rogan 0:07 How're you feeling, man?

Kamaru Usman 0:07 I'm, I'm, I'm good. I'm good. Life is good.

Joe Rogan 0:10 Life is good.

Kamaru Usman 0:10 (laughs) It's good. Stressful, but it's good.

Joe Rogan 0:12 Well, I mean, it has to be stressful. You're the king of the hill.

Kamaru Usman 0:15 Yes, yes.

Joe Rogan 0:17 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 0:17 And it, that's, uh, there's a lot of things they don't tell you-

Joe Rogan 0:19 Dude, I remember-

Kamaru Usman 0:20 ... you know, on the way up there.

Joe Rogan 0:20 ... Matt Hughes, when he lost to BJ Penn, I was interviewing him in the octagon, he said something, like, really honest and very shocking. He said, "Honestly," he goes, "it's a relief." He goes, like, "Being the champ, and the stress of it all," he goes, "I'm re- I'm, I feel relieved to have been lost." Like, first of all, to, to lose, it's very, like... The fact that he had the balls to say that, like, just admit it, like, "Hey, it's a relief." Like, you know, "He just choked me out, but I'm happy. I'm happy it happened."

Kamaru Usman 0:46 It, it, it is. For, for guys like that, that, uh, that have reached that status, it is. The Anderson Silva, the-

Joe Rogan 0:51 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 0:51 ... the Georges St-Pierre, those guys, it, it is a relief. Because, you know, and I'm just, I'm starting to see a little bit why. Because as soon as I walk out of there, defending your title, as soon as you just beat this kid up, fans can't wait to say, "Oh, no, this is the guy that's gonna beat you."

Joe Rogan 1:10 Right.

Kamaru Usman 1:11 "That's the guy that's gonna beat you."

Joe Rogan 1:12 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 1:12 So there's, there's really no come down, you know, "Let me take a vacation, let me do this." No, because fans are on it. They want a guy to step in there with you tomorrow to beat you.

Joe Rogan 1:21 That's always gonna happen, though, isn't it?

Kamaru Usman 1:22 It's, yeah, you know, but-

Joe Rogan 1:23 With everybody, anybody who's a champ.

Kamaru Usman 1:25 Yeah, but that, that's... Now, imagine doing that five, six, seven times, over and over-

Joe Rogan 1:30 Yeah. For decades, yeah.

Kamaru Usman 1:30 ... and like these guys, Georges St-Pierre, for decades have done.

Joe Rogan 1:33 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 1:33 Over... It, it just gets overwhelming, because it's like nothing's ever good enough for you guys, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:38 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 1:38 I, I can't go out there, put on a flawless performance, win, and just have you guys say, "You know what? He's the best." No, it's like, "You were good, but yeah, this guy's gonna beat you. This guy, this guy's good enough to beat you."

Joe Rogan 1:49 Well, there's always gonna be a certain percentage of people that are not happy with anything. I, I saw-

Kamaru Usman 1:54 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:54 ... a lot of people that are tweeting, talking shit about Conor after he just won flawless victory, 40-second knockout of Donald Cerrone, and they were like, "That doesn't prove shit." You know, "He's gonna-

Kamaru Usman 2:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:04 "... fall apart if he fights anybody good. Soon as he gets in there with a wrestler," this and that, blah, blah, blah. It's like some people are just negative.

Kamaru Usman 2:11 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 2:12 And you, you can't fix them. You just gotta accept them the way they are, just like, "Eh."

Kamaru Usman 2:16 I know. And, and it's-

Joe Rogan 2:16 Keep winning.

Kamaru Usman 2:16 ... it's one of the advice that Rashad gave me early on, is, uh, make friends with this.

Joe Rogan 2:22 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 2:22 Make friends with, with, uh, 'cause I, you know, you get worked up before a fight, you know, you-

Joe Rogan 2:27 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 2:27 So he's like, "No, make friends with that feeling, because that, that's a good feeling." You know, or you're backstage before your fight and you're super nervous. You wanna take a shit. You, you know, you, you wanna pee. You pee, like, 50 times. You're barely drinking water, but somehow there's some kinda pee coming out.

Joe Rogan 2:41 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 2:42 (laughs) And, and he's like, "No, make friends with that feeling." You know? The moment you accept that feeling, it's not that big of a burden anymore.

Joe Rogan 2:49 Rashad's a wise man.

Kamaru Usman 2:50 You know? A super wise man.

Joe Rogan 2:51 That's a very, that's a very wise piece of advice, 'cause i- you can really change your perception based on how you approach something, and just deciding-

Kamaru Usman 3:00 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:00 ... "This is all right, this is a part of the process, this is what's up, this is how it works."

Kamaru Usman 3:04 It's, it's big for me right now.

Joe Rogan 3:05 Yeah?

Kamaru Usman 3:05 It's very, very big for me, because I, uh, I'm a creature of a, of a routine. I love having a routine. And, and it's a fine line between routine and obsessive compulsive.

Joe Rogan 3:17 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 3:17 It, it's a very, very fine line.

Joe Rogan 3:19 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 3:19 Because... And it started on for me early on. When I, when I started to succeed in wrestling, I was, uh, "Okay, this is my routine. Okay, I'm, I'm looking at the... Okay, I'm 10 matches out, so that means I need to get up and I need to warm up." My warmup was the same. "Okay, I'm gonna jog back and forth twice before I, I skip back and forth twice, before I, I, I do my lunges back and forth twice, before I do my stance and motion back and forth twice." Like, it was, it was that routine. I had to do it at that time. Uh, "No, I'm going to the restroom, I need to pee before I, I, I go for this match, but I'm gonna go into the same bathroom, I'm gonna go into the same stall."

Joe Rogan 3:54 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 3:55 "You know, I, I'm gonna pee and I'm gonna come out. I'm gonna use the same sink to wash my hand, get one or two paper towels, throw it away, go back out." Like, it, it got to a point where it's like, "That's my routine." And then I go out there and I perform and I win, I'm like, "Yeah, that, that's why, that's why I, I'm performing this."

Joe Rogan 4:12 So it's like OCD.

Kamaru Usman 4:13 It, it, it b- it become... There's a fine line. So I had to realize that that's a fine line, because it's not necessarily OCD. Because when you, when it becomes obsessive compulsive is when, for me, is when you feel like you can't succeed unless you do those things.

Joe Rogan 4:27 Right.

Kamaru Usman 4:28 So it's like, "Dang, I, I forgot to do that. Well, oh, I'm gonna lose, I'm gonna lose." No, it, it's... I had to learn how to control it early, because it's like my, that's my routine. But even if I, I didn't do that, I didn't have enough time to do that, because sometimes you don't have enough time to do it.

Joe Rogan 4:41 Right.

Kamaru Usman 4:41 They, you know, something goes out of whack, matches end early but, and you don't have enough time to, to get your routine in. So it's like had to be able to adjust my mind, "Okay, we still go out there and perform. We still go out there..." Especially in the fight game.

Joe Rogan 4:52 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 4:52 You know, you go out there, quick, two quick knockouts, boom, boom, boom, you thinking you've got 30 minutes to warm up and stuff. They're like, "No, you got to come in back, 'You got 10 minutes!'" And it's like, "Oh, sh- I got 10 minutes. I, I can't get my whole routine in."

Joe Rogan 5:03 How much time do you need? Like, say if you're in the locker room and you, you, like, before you walk out for the fight, how much time do you need to get everything loosened up?

Kamaru Usman 5:14 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 5:14 What do you like?

Kamaru Usman 5:14 I mean, I'm older now (laughs) . My joints make noises now, so. Um, not too crazy, because I, I work out that morning before the fight. I work, that's when I really get the hard workout in.

Joe Rogan 5:26 You have a hard workout the day-

Kamaru Usman 5:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:28 ... of the fight?

Kamaru Usman 5:28 The, uh, the day of the fight, I work out in that morning.

Joe Rogan 5:30 Holy shit.

Kamaru Usman 5:31 Uh, all my coaches, you know, my training partners, everybody, we go in and we get a good, a good sweat. I like to blow it all out. Because the night before I don't, 'cause that's, that's the day of weigh-ins.

Joe Rogan 5:40 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 5:40 So you just cut... That Thursday night, you cut a lot of it, you cut the weight, dehydrated, you weigh in that morning, uh, that Friday morning. So that Friday is dedicated to just rehydrating and eating.

Joe Rogan 5:52 How much do you cut?

Kamaru Usman 5:53 (Sighs) (smacks lips) I don't get that... That, that last fight was, uh, probably one of the biggest I stayed throughout, and I think I was up to about maybe 197.And... But when I start really full-fledged going two days in camp, I try to keep my weight around 192, 191 because that's where I feel strong, you know, but not my fastest. But I'm close.

Joe Rogan 6:16 'Cause I've seen you walk around in between fights. I'm like, "How the fuck does that guy-

Kamaru Usman 6:21 I, I, I'm, I'm just-

Joe Rogan 6:21 ... make 170?"

Kamaru Usman 6:21 It's, it's, it's fake. It's just, uh, you know... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:24 It's fake? (laughs) What are you talking about?

Kamaru Usman 6:25 It's, it's, they're air muscles and I, I-

Joe Rogan 6:26 Bullshit.

Kamaru Usman 6:27 ... I, I, I do a couple of, uh-

Joe Rogan 6:29 No, bro, I've hugged you, man.

Kamaru Usman 6:30 You know, I just have those-

Joe Rogan 6:30 There is no air in those muscles.

Kamaru Usman 6:32 ... re- I've got, I've got, uh, a back and I, I, you know, I, um, I do a couple of, you know, freaking curls and my arms just swell up. Just (exhales sharply) just swell up. But-

Joe Rogan 6:42 But 197, if you're getting up to 197 and you're cutting 27 pounds-

Kamaru Usman 6:46 (clicks tongue) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:46 ... how much does that take, uh, out of you?

Kamaru Usman 6:49 (sighs) Well, I, like I said, I'm a creature of, of a routine and, and, and I like to get into that routine so I, I'm dieting well, eating well. So by... When I'm down to, uh, about 3%, I think it's ob- so- probably some of the leanest I've been, about 3%, yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:06 3% body fat? Really?

Kamaru Usman 7:07 When I'm down to abo-

Joe Rogan 7:07 Is this from calipers or from a dunk?

Kamaru Usman 7:09 Yeah. From, from calipers and, and-

Joe Rogan 7:11 They say that caliper thing's not totally accurate.

Kamaru Usman 7:12 It's not... I mean, yeah, of course it's not gonna be completely accurate.

Joe Rogan 7:16 Right.

Kamaru Usman 7:16 You know, but around that area because I, I just have nothing. I'm just extremely lean.

Joe Rogan 7:21 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 7:22 And at that point I'm, um, a 180... I wanna say 84, 85 pounds.

Joe Rogan 7:29 So you're just cutting-

Kamaru Usman 7:30 That's-

Joe Rogan 7:30 ... 15 pounds of water.

Kamaru Usman 7:31 Yeah, about, about, I would say 12.

Joe Rogan 7:33 Hmm.

Kamaru Usman 7:33 Anywhere from 12 to... is, is, uh, is water, but-

Joe Rogan 7:37 (sniffs)

Kamaru Usman 7:37 ... you know, I have an amazing team behind me. You know, amazing strength and conditioning coach, amazing, you know, nutritionist. I, I work with Clint up at the PI now.

Joe Rogan 7:46 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 7:46 And, and, and-

Joe Rogan 7:46 Is he the one who hooks, hooks up the weight cutting and all that?

Kamaru Usman 7:49 Me... Well, yeah, they, they help with it, you know, because, uh, he lives in Vegas and I'm in South Florida. So me, me and Clint, we stay in contact, you know, and, uh... And one thing that I liked about Clint is the fact that he gave me the time to say, "Hey, you know, let's, let's really test your body. Look at all this and that. You know, you're the kind of athlete you carry a lot of muscle and, and, you know, there's that stigma that if you have a lot of muscle, you run outta gas really, really fast. But the way you work, we gotta make sure that you're eating the right way to make sure you sustain that."

Joe Rogan 8:18 Hmm.

Kamaru Usman 8:18 And, of course, my strength and conditioning coach, Dr. Corey Peacock, I mean, PhD in, uh, you know, the, um, associate professor over at, uh, Nova University, you know, in exercise physiology. I mean, smart, brilliant guy. You know, I've been working with him since my first fight in the UFC.

Joe Rogan 8:35 And you have particular needs because you've got problems with your knees.

Kamaru Usman 8:39 Yes.

Joe Rogan 8:39 So you can't run-

Kamaru Usman 8:40 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 8:41 ... like, like-

Kamaru Usman 8:41 And that's why I started-

Joe Rogan 8:42 ... which is kind of crazy.

Kamaru Usman 8:42 ... working with him.

Joe Rogan 8:43 Oh.

Kamaru Usman 8:43 It is, it is... Before that, I was working with Jake Bonacini, and Jake, uh, amazing. You know, Jake was at Xtreme Couture for a long, long time and Jake knew what he was doing. But Jake, you know, the thing with Jake was Jake was a mastermind with the, you know, if you're an athlete, you got... your, all your body parts work so, "Well, this is what we need to do to get you tip-top sta- shape." And then when Corey came in was after I had that injury, 'cause I had a microfracture surgery and then I had to fight the finale like three and a half months after that.

Joe Rogan 9:14 So microfracture surgery is that shit they do to try to rebuild cartilage in your knees?

Kamaru Usman 9:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:17 Is that what it is?

Kamaru Usman 9:18 Which, which was... Yeah. That... Now, now some doctors are like, "Oh, yeah, that's from the Stone Age. You don't do that anymore."

Joe Rogan 9:23 Really?

Kamaru Usman 9:24 But it's... they go... it's... when, when they go in and I guess they create f- tiny little fracture-

Joe Rogan 9:29 Right.

Kamaru Usman 9:29 ... in whether it's the... you know, for mine it was the knee, so either it's the femoral condyle or the, uh, um, (clicks tongue) um... I forget what the bone's called, but they try to-

Joe Rogan 9:37 Tibia?

Kamaru Usman 9:38 Tibia. You know, they try to, uh-

Joe Rogan 9:39 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 9:40 ... I guess let it bleed in and, and create, you know, the cartilage, you know, and, um-

Joe Rogan 9:45 Does it wor- it work at all?

Kamaru Usman 9:46 No, it didn't work.

Joe Rogan 9:47 Hmm.

Kamaru Usman 9:47 It... I think it actually set me back a big, big amount.

Joe Rogan 9:49 We ta- I think that's right. We talked about that the last time.

Kamaru Usman 9:52 Yeah, yeah, but, you know, the-

Joe Rogan 9:53 Have you ever done stem cells?

Kamaru Usman 9:54 Yeah, I did.

Joe Rogan 9:55 Yeah?

Kamaru Usman 9:55 I took your advice, I went and did stem cells and-

Joe Rogan 9:56 Did you do it in Panama?

Kamaru Usman 9:58 No, I didn't go to Panama, but that doctor did it for me in, in Dallas.

Joe Rogan 10:02 Dr. Neil Reardon?

Kamaru Usman 10:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:03 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 10:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:04 They can do some crazy shit in Panama.

Kamaru Usman 10:06 Yeah. I, I didn't even go to Panama. That's what-

Joe Rogan 10:07 'Cause Panama doesn't have any-

Kamaru Usman 10:08 ... that's what I used to do.

Joe Rogan 10:09 Yeah. Yeah. A lot of guys... My... I sent my mom down there twice.

Kamaru Usman 10:12 Really?

Joe Rogan 10:12 Yeah, they told my mom she needed a knee replacement and, uh, I was like, "Before we do this, let's, let's just see what happens." And it took... you know, my mom's in her 70s, so it took a while-

Kamaru Usman 10:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:22 ... but about eight months in, the pain went away and then I sent her down for a second time and it looks even more improved. What's really crazy is I saw her over Christmas and she looked younger.

Kamaru Usman 10:32 Well, yeah. So, I mean, I'm sure it has a lot of different effects, a lot of different ways that that, that thing could help out. But f- in my case, the, the thing about it is I'm so active that it's very, very hard to, to sit back and just say, "Oh, man, that worked." Because I'm still kicking every day. I still feel that pain of kicking every day.

Joe Rogan 10:51 Right.

Kamaru Usman 10:51 I still feel that pain of bouncing on my knees, taking shots and, and, and-

Joe Rogan 10:53 You would... If you really wanted to heal up, you're gonna have to take some time off.

Kamaru Usman 10:57 ... you gotta take time, but that's not time I can afford.

Joe Rogan 10:58 Could you do that... But what about just swimming? Like could you do that-

Kamaru Usman 11:01 I do swim.

Joe Rogan 11:01 ... for a couple of months, just swim only for strength and conditioning and just do that?

Kamaru Usman 11:04 I do swim. You know, I don't, I don't really run a lot. You know, that's the thing with, uh, Corey Peacock is, uh, when he came in, was adjusting me to not being so hard on my knees.

Joe Rogan 11:15 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 11:15 You know, working away from that, because I haven't really done a back squat since (exhales sharply) maybe 2014.

Joe Rogan 11:22 Is that something that's particularly rough on your knees?

Kamaru Usman 11:24 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:25 Yeah?

Kamaru Usman 11:25 I mean, imagine carrying all that load and squatting-

Joe Rogan 11:27 Right, right.

Kamaru Usman 11:28 ... and, and then... Yeah, that was bad, and then, you know, the Russian split squats and all that, all those were, were, were killing my knees. And those are the things that, you know, we're taught to do for strength.

Joe Rogan 11:39 Right.

Kamaru Usman 11:39 It's like, "Yeah, I need to be strong and explosive, so I need to squat, I need to do all these things." But, you know, Corey came in and really kinda helped, you know, mold the way that I work and, and not necessarily killing all those... We still squat. We'll, you know, we'll switch it up. We'll do the, you know, the kettlebell front squats or we'll, we'll... you know, we'll do a bunch of different squats, but he, uh, he really came in and helped kinda shape the way that I, I went about it. So, you know, my str-... And that's the thing that I always do year round, is I, I try not to slip on my strength and conditioning because I know I have a lot of muscles and, and at the same time I gotta keep, keep that... You know.

Joe Rogan 12:11 That's also part of your style, right? Your style is-

Kamaru Usman 12:13 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:13 ... you push a pace.

Kamaru Usman 12:14 Yeah, I, I gotta push that pace and, and a lot of guys are strong right away, like-... the one that hit you and it's like, "Oh, man. That guy's strong." But what about the guy that hits you and then keeps going? Because guys can't... a lot of guys can't maintain that and sustain that.

Joe Rogan 12:29 Right.

Kamaru Usman 12:29 And that's where I like to think I have an edge over everybody.

Joe Rogan 12:31 And so this strength and conditioning coach that you've been working with from the beginning, like give us like a- a- like what- what is a regular routine for you? Like what kind of shit does he have you do?

Kamaru Usman 12:39 Uh, Dr P... Okay. (sighs) Okay, so we just, um, we started getting back in there, um, literally last week.

Joe Rogan 12:48 So you took a little time off.

Kamaru Usman 12:49 Uh-

Joe Rogan 12:49 How's- how's your hand? Your left hand?

Kamaru Usman 12:51 So, that's the thing, I- I free- I went and... I know the doctor's gonna hate me for this. (laughs) So, I- I had a cast on, so then I go to Vegas and, um, (smacks lips) and I talk to the doctors, uh, you know, the UFC doc and those guys in Vegas, and you know, it's not broken, you know, it's just, uh, an issue with the ligaments. You can see, see in this right hand, right here at the bottom of the thumb, you can clearly see the ligaments.

Joe Rogan 13:13 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 13:13 You know, all working there. But then here, there's that bump in between, so they don't come out as much. And that's causing me... I don't have s- I didn't have, I don't have the strength like, you know, being able to pull. And this is a big part of my game is if I get around you, I get a body lock, I don't care what you're doing, you're just not getting me off.

Joe Rogan 13:31 Right.

Kamaru Usman 13:31 That- that... I just, I've spent years just working on that grip to where you just not... uh, you're not letting me off until I let off.

Joe Rogan 13:38 Right.

Kamaru Usman 13:38 And so now, not being able to do that, but it's- it's healing fast, and uh, I was in Vegas and (laughs) the doctor's like, "We can just cut the cast off and make you a hard, removable one that I can take off on and off so I can shower." Because that was the thing, you're stuck in this cast for four weeks, you can't really shower with it, you gotta shower with your arm up in the air.

Joe Rogan 13:59 Oh, and your hand stays-

Kamaru Usman 14:00 And the hand stays.

Joe Rogan 14:00 ... so bad when it gets out. (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 14:01 And then when it itches and you- I gotta stick stuff in there.

Joe Rogan 14:04 Yeah, yeah.

Kamaru Usman 14:04 And- and psychologically, I started getting a little anxiety with it too, 'cause it's like, "Can't get this thing off my hand, I need this thing off." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:12 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 14:12 So sometimes I'm just laying there, I'm just like, "I want it off my hand and I can't get it off." But-

Joe Rogan 14:16 So is it a ligament tear? Is that what it is?

Kamaru Usman 14:18 Um, it's not a tear. They- they, um, they thought it was a- a tear at the bottom, but it... you know, strength is coming back, you know, slowly, so-

Joe Rogan 14:25 So it's a sprain? Maybe a sprain or something?

Kamaru Usman 14:26 Yeah, it was like a really bad strain and that- that, uh, bump is still there for some reason. So we're- we're working on it, I'm doing everything, ultrasound, MRI-

Joe Rogan 14:32 But no fracture?

Kamaru Usman 14:33 And no fracture, which is good news, so I don't have to be out for too long.

Joe Rogan 14:36 Yeah, 'cause you sent me the tape of like when you hurt it in training.

Kamaru Usman 14:40 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:40 You could see it like... so it was one of those things where you- you hit with the thumb instead of the knuckle?

Kamaru Usman 14:43 I- I hit- I hit it with the th... 'cause, you know, when you got those big gloves on-

Joe Rogan 14:46 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 14:46 ... you know, you- you can't really make a full fist.

Joe Rogan 14:49 Right.

Kamaru Usman 14:49 You know? So, especially when you have wraps. So your hand's kind of in there like this, so you throw a punch the wrong way or somebody comes into you the wrong way, it's like boom, you heard it.

Joe Rogan 14:56 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 14:57 So I heard it at one, I'm like, "Oh sh- what am I gonna do now?" You know, so now everything's going through my head. I got this guy that's been talking shit (laughs) for-

Joe Rogan 15:06 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 15:06 ... for years and- and everybody in the world is telling me, "You have to kill this guy. You can't be the... you can't lose to him." So h- now I'm going through all this in my mind, "No, I can't be that guy. I can't lose to that guy. I can't lose to that guy." And then it's like... then I'm like, "Okay, no, it feels a little better. I'm go... I'm gonna spar hard." So I start sparring, boom, right away heard it again and I- I... a couple times I almost cried.

Joe Rogan 15:28 And you're getting it taped up hard too, so-

Kamaru Usman 15:30 I'm- I'm getting it taped up and everything-

Joe Rogan 15:32 Even so, it's still-

Kamaru Usman 15:33 ... but even so, it- it's still hurting. But then it gets to a point where I'm just like, "Shit, gotta block it out." You know, fight's a fight, gotta block it out. So I'm in the dressing room, I'm training, everything's okay, I- I block it out, not even thinking about it and thinking about going to work. Then I get in there, first round, I don't even remember. I just remember throwing it, boom, something's wrong. "Oh." And then I'm just like, "Okay, play it off, play it off." And then props to Colby, like, you know, he comes on and- and he's, you know... he's doing his job. He's fighting me, he's in there landing strikes and I'm like, (clicks tongue) "Okay." You know? But at- at some point I never thought, "I'm gonna lose this fight." 'Cause I never think like that. It's like, "Oh, I'm not gonna lose this fight." Even if something's not going my way, I just, I'm gonna adapt, I'm gonna find a way to win.

Joe Rogan 16:16 W- wasn't it like on the, like... the scorecards at the end of the fight were very close.

Kamaru Usman 16:23 Yeah. I- I s- I knew it was close.

Joe Rogan 16:26 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 16:26 I- I would, uh... 'cause it... for the first time ever, I asked my coaches, "Did I win that round?"

Joe Rogan 16:33 Hmm.

Kamaru Usman 16:33 I've never in my career done that. I'm the type of guy, even when I was wrestling, I'm the re- type of wrestler who, I like to run up the scoreboard. I don't like to live- leave any doubt that I won that round. I'm gonna dominate that round. I'm gonna make sure I won. So in my head, I know I won. I don't need to ask.

Joe Rogan 16:49 Hmm.

Kamaru Usman 16:49 For the first time in my career, I went back, I'm like, "Did I win that round? Did I win that round?" And, but I... even by me asking that, I never thought, "Oh, I'm not gonna finish this fight." I always knew I was gonna finish the fight, but I just was like, I was, "D- did I win that? Did I win that?" You know, I don't know why, I don't know how or what- what was going on in my head, but for some reason I asked. I was asking. So I knew the fight was close.

Joe Rogan 17:13 It was a good fucking fight, man. It was a good fight. The thing about Colby is he tricks you into thinking he sucks. 'Cause he's got a goofy suit on and he- he talks crazy and, you know, he wears the MAGA hat and all that stuff, but- but then if you didn't see any of that-

Kamaru Usman 17:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:30 ... if you just watched him fight, you'd be like, "That motherfucker puts a pace on people."

Kamaru Usman 17:33 Yeah. A lot of people knew that.

Joe Rogan 17:33 What he did to Robbie Lawler, I was like, "Good Lord." Like nobody does that to Robbie Lawler, like he put a fucking pace on him. It just stayed on him. Like guys have wrestled him before, Robbie, you know, like got a hold of him, dragged him down, tried to make it a, you know, a st- you know, try to-

Kamaru Usman 17:48 Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:48 ... stall him out. That's not what Colby did. Colby just stuck on him like glue and just put that pace on him.

Kamaru Usman 17:54 Yeah. I mean, he really, he really... that w- he really showed, you know, like how good he is. And I mean, I'm, I- I give respect where respect is due. I'm no- I'm no hater, you know. I know this kid could fight. I knew he was good, I knew he was tough and I knew he was a competitor as well. He's always been a competitor. I knew guys that were on wrestling teams with this guy.... you know, besides Jon Jones. I knew-

Joe Rogan 18:13 Right.

Kamaru Usman 18:13 ... other guys, you know, that I'm f- good friends with that wrestled with him. So, I've always known that he was a competitor, that he was gonna come out and try to compete. You know, but I, like I said, I- I just mentally, I think I'm just on a different level than these guys just because everything that I've been through, that I've done in my life, has shaped me into the man that I am. So mentally, I'm- I'm just on a different level than him.

Joe Rogan 18:35 Well, you have to have that attitude, right?

Kamaru Usman 18:37 Yeah. A- and- and I ju- I s- I just, I felt it. I knew it and I felt it even... And now it's so, more so than ever because now you've got all the fans by, you know, on- on what he's got his fans, you've got... E- everyone has fans that are gonna talk shit (laughs) to you.

Joe Rogan 18:55 Yeah. Well, this was-

Kamaru Usman 18:55 And they make it worse.

Joe Rogan 18:56 ... the first time that you had a close fight-

Kamaru Usman 18:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:58 ... in the UFC.

Kamaru Usman 18:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:59 Which is kinda crazy. I mean, think about your career, it's pretty fucking nuts. I mean, you win the title over one of the best welterweights of all time in Tyron Woodley, and you just dominate him, right? You think about all the other guys, dos Anjos, all those guys you smashed, and wa- I mean, that's... You had a crazy run up to the title, and then a crazy title winning effort, and then this was the first time we saw you in, like, a very close fight.

Kamaru Usman 19:23 Yeah. I mean, uh, and a- a testament to him too, like, he's a tough guy.

Joe Rogan 19:27 He's tough as fuck.

Kamaru Usman 19:27 Like, at the end of the day, you know, to make fantastic fights, you gotta have the right dance partner.

Joe Rogan 19:32 Yes. Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 19:33 And- and-

Joe Rogan 19:34 Frazier needed Ali.

Kamaru Usman 19:35 Yes.

Joe Rogan 19:35 They need each other. Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 19:36 And- and he was the right dance partner. And to be honest with you, you know, if I didn't take too much out of him, because each fight takes something from you, you know, internally. So, if I didn't take too much from him, I think I might see him again, to be honest, because, like, it's clear that we are the two best guys in the division. And so, yeah, I mean, I look forward to, uh, seeing him again.

Joe Rogan 19:57 I think you guys will see each other again. I do. I'm- I'm really interested to see what happens with Tyron and Leon Edwards. You know, they're fighting next.

Kamaru Usman 20:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:05 That's a- a big fight, a very hard fight-

Kamaru Usman 20:07 It- it is.

Joe Rogan 20:08 ... for both guys.

Kamaru Usman 20:08 It is. It's, um, it's a hard fight for both guys, but it- and it stylistically matches up well for both guys.

Joe Rogan 20:15 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 20:15 Because Tyron has a lot of successes with- with southpaw guys.

Joe Rogan 20:19 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 20:20 And-

Joe Rogan 20:20 That right hand he's got.

Kamaru Usman 20:21 Yeah. He's got that- that cannon in his right hand.

Joe Rogan 20:23 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 20:23 And- and Tyron is very, very good when guys don't completely dominate and control what's going on. And Leon Edwards is- has done better at that with guys that he feels like he can keep up with. But with a guy like Tyron Woodley, that- that can wrestle like Tyron Woodley, that's got power like him, I wonder how he's going to do.

Joe Rogan 20:43 Well, I feel like Leon gets the least amount of attention when it comes to-

Kamaru Usman 20:47 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 20:47 ... like, top flight, world-class fighters. He's a top flight, world-class fighter.

Kamaru Usman 20:51 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 20:51 But he gets the least amount of attention out of those guys for s- whatever weird reason.

Kamaru Usman 20:55 Yeah. It's... I mean, it's the era that we live in now. I mean, this- this is the first fight, like, if you really think about it, this is the first fight you're actually starting to hear his voice. Like-

Joe Rogan 21:03 Right.

Kamaru Usman 21:04 Like (laughs) it's like-

Joe Rogan 21:05 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 21:05 It's like who is Leon, uh, uh-

Joe Rogan 21:07 Right, right, right.

Kamaru Usman 21:07 ... Scott or Edward, whatever his last name is (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 21:08 Well, the biggest thing with him was when he had a fistfight with Masvidal. Like, when they- when they had that scrap.

Kamaru Usman 21:14 Well, it- i- it wasn't a fistfight. Like- like-

Joe Rogan 21:15 But Masvidal just cracked him.

Kamaru Usman 21:16 Wh- wh- what- whatever that guy, w- whatever his name is.

Joe Rogan 21:19 Oh, okay.

Kamaru Usman 21:19 You know? I- I mean, he...

Joe Rogan 21:21 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 21:21 You know, he openly said it, you have one of the best sucker punches in the game-

Joe Rogan 21:25 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 21:25 ... and the best 40-yard dash. So you go in there, you sucker punch somebody backstage, and you run outta there, and they rush you outta London before it-

Joe Rogan 21:32 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 21:32 ... them Brits can get ahold of you. Before the London boys came back, you know? So, I mean, yeah, that- that's kinda... Unfortunately for Leon, that's gonna (laughs) put his name out there.

Joe Rogan 21:43 Which is kinda crazy too because when you're in a foreign country and you commit assault, usually they lock you the fuck up.

Kamaru Usman 21:49 They got him outta there. Let's just say that.

Joe Rogan 21:51 They got him outta there quick.

Kamaru Usman 21:52 They got him outta there.

Joe Rogan 21:52 But it's weird, like, no charges, no nothing?

Kamaru Usman 21:54 They got him outta there.

Joe Rogan 21:55 But isn't that kinda... 'Cause like there's video.

Kamaru Usman 21:58 Yes.

Joe Rogan 21:58 It's not like we don't know what happened.

Kamaru Usman 21:59 Yeah. And- and the crazy thing is that- that... He gets praised for that.

Joe Rogan 22:02 Yes. They're like, "Yeah."

Kamaru Usman 22:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:04 Made him- made him bigger.

Kamaru Usman 22:04 Yeah, it made him famous. He gets praised for that.

Joe Rogan 22:06 Yeah. That's crazy.

Kamaru Usman 22:06 Now imagine I do that over there i- i- i- in (laughs) London.

Joe Rogan 22:09 Right, like, or imagine anybody else doing that.

Kamaru Usman 22:11 Anybody else doing that in- in London, it's like-

Joe Rogan 22:13 How did he do it? It's weird. Like, how did Masvidal get away with it? It's w- it's- it is weird.

Kamaru Usman 22:16 Well, with the forces that be, the UFC is very, uh, they're very good at what they do. And let's just say they got him outta there quick.

Joe Rogan 22:23 Let's just say. Let's just say.

Kamaru Usman 22:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:25 Yeah, he's been talking crazy shit. Um-

Kamaru Usman 22:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:27 ... that might be your next fight.

Kamaru Usman 22:29 S- (sighs)

Joe Rogan 22:29 What do you think?

Kamaru Usman 22:30 The- th- th-

Joe Rogan 22:30 Do you think that's gonna be your next fight?

Kamaru Usman 22:32 I hope so because of, um, because of the way that things... I'm the type of guy to where anything you say can and will be used against you inside that octagon.

Joe Rogan 22:41 Oh, you're a court of law.

Kamaru Usman 22:42 I... Exactly.

Joe Rogan 22:43 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 22:44 Exactly. I'm the judge, the juror, and the executioner in there (laughs) . And- and that- that's how I approach it, you know? 'Cause some guys, you just sign the contract to go fight the guys.

Joe Rogan 22:53 Right.

Kamaru Usman 22:54 But I- I- I get obsessed with the fact that I- I'm- I'm want them to say something. I'm- I'm- I'm waiting for them to say something. It's a little tougher than... The guys that don't really have to say anything, they don't have anything negative to say, it's a little tougher to go in there and j- you know, f-

Joe Rogan 23:06 And get angry.

Kamaru Usman 23:06 Get angry-

Joe Rogan 23:06 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 23:07 ... to fight them. And I'm... I- I look at... I want them to say something. They s- do an interview, that pops up. My Google Alert's on. You know, my... Someone on my- from my team will tell me, "Boom, someone did this interview about this."

Joe Rogan 23:19 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 23:19 "Check it out. If I have time, I'll watch it. Oh, he said that? Okay."

Joe Rogan 23:23 Mm.

Kamaru Usman 23:24 You know? And th- and this guy, it's... You know what? It- it's- it's funny to see the way it's shifted, like, the care- his career has shifted. This is a guy that's been doing it for a long, long time. A long time.

Joe Rogan 23:38 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 23:38 And he was a run-of-the-mill guy who'd win some, lose some, win some, lose some. I mean, you know, not that long ago, he was losing, you know? But... And a credit to his team as well, you know, they've done a good job at- at picking the right fights to really get him to where he is now.

Joe Rogan 23:56 But do you know what actually happened? You know, his- his story? He went- he went on a South American game show.

Kamaru Usman 24:02 Well, yeah. He was 300 pounds before he went and did that.

Joe Rogan 24:05 Was he?

Kamaru Usman 24:05 Like, he- psh.

Joe Rogan 24:06 He was really fat?

Kamaru Usman 24:08 Bruh, look at pic... You fin- look at pictures.

Joe Rogan 24:10 Really?

Kamaru Usman 24:11 Nah.

Joe Rogan 24:11 But this... Wasn't this-

Kamaru Usman 24:12 Bad.

Joe Rogan 24:12 ... like post Wonderboy? Wasn't it-

Kamaru Usman 24:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:14 Was it somewhere around then?

Kamaru Usman 24:15 I- I- I guess somewhere around there, I think it's post Wonderboy right after.

Joe Rogan 24:19 He was fat though.

Kamaru Usman 24:20 Bro got fat-

Joe Rogan 24:21 Come on, really?

Kamaru Usman 24:21 ... bad. Fat.

Joe Rogan 24:23 Ah.

Kamaru Usman 24:23 When I fought, was it, I fought Wonderboy... No, when I fought Demian Maia, I think that was like the tail end of the, uh, of the, uh, the huskiness on, on, on his part. But it was (sighs) at, at some point like... Listen, like, everyone's buying into the hype. This is what I'm saying, that, that they've done a good job at creating this hype by picking the fights to where one fight was a gamble, the Ben Askren fight was a gamble. You know? You win that fight, you take all that hype-

Joe Rogan 24:54 Right.

Kamaru Usman 24:54 ... that this guy has. Which this guy didn't belong in there in the first place, but previously in his career, early on in his career, you could make the argument that, yes. But at that point in his career, he didn't belong in there. But he goes out there... Let's say Ben Askren does take him down and does what Ben Askren does, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

Joe Rogan 25:12 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 25:12 So he goes, and that's a gamble on their part and the gamble paid off. He went in there, he took all that hype from Ben. Then who's the next guy? The guy that, you know, another guy that win some, lose some, but has a ton of hype because he just fought Conor. Goes in there and fights Nate. Now, if that fight turns out the way it did, you get all this hype. Now you got all these people thinking, "Oh my God, this guy's a killer. Where has he been?" This and that. It's the same guy that was 300 pounds not too long ago-

Joe Rogan 25:42 He was not 300 pounds then. (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 25:43 ... that would... Look at him, he was damn near close. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:46 I don't think he was ever-

Kamaru Usman 25:47 A- above 200.

Joe Rogan 25:48 ... north of 220.

Kamaru Usman 25:49 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:49 Really?

Kamaru Usman 25:49 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:50 Really?

Kamaru Usman 25:51 Oh, yeah. I'm talking-

Joe Rogan 25:52 I never saw him fat.

Kamaru Usman 25:53 Yeah, you should look at pictures.

Joe Rogan 25:54 Okay.

Kamaru Usman 25:54 Oh, yeah. But, you know, hats off to him, he got the weight off and, you know, he went over and did his thing. And I'm no hater, I give credit where credit is due, yeah, but, but don't... He was always that guy that said, "You know what? I'm not, I'm not this cliché, I'm not playing this character, I'm not doing this, you know? I'm just a real fighter and this." But then you're showing up at fucking press conferences looking like the knockoff of Scarface.

Joe Rogan 26:15 Yeah, but don't you think that that's wise? Like just-

Kamaru Usman 26:18 No, it is wise.

Joe Rogan 26:19 It's very smart, right? Right?

Kamaru Usman 26:19 It is wise, it is.

Joe Rogan 26:20 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 26:21 But say it like it is. Don't sit here and say, "Oh, these guys are being the gimmick, these guys are doing this, these guys are doing that." You're doing the same damn thing. And, and then look at what he did that last fight. Oh my God, he took the biggest L of that night. Like that was corny. You wanna wear the robe, you wanna stand there. And you say he was holding that silver belt, like he... They actually think this is a real belt?

Joe Rogan 26:42 The BMF belt?

Kamaru Usman 26:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:43 What did you think about that BMF belt? Wasn't it strange-

Kamaru Usman 26:46 The mediocre fighter belt?

Joe Rogan 26:47 ... like they didn't need, they didn't need a BMF belt for this last fight with Conor and Cowboy. They just needed a good matchup.

Kamaru Usman 26:52 Yeah, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 26:53 Right? So why, what is, why does the BMF belt... Like is that a one-time thing?

Kamaru Usman 26:57 It was, yeah, it was, it was something they created to kind of hype, hype that fight.

Joe Rogan 27:01 But didn't that-

Kamaru Usman 27:01 They, they needed, they, I mean and it worked.

Joe Rogan 27:03 Did they really need a belt though? Did they need a belt?

Kamaru Usman 27:04 No, they didn't. But, you know, if they, they get loud enough and Dana hears them and Dana sees that... Dana is a very smart man. Greatest promoter we've ever seen, you know? And to jump on that like, "You know what? Shit, let's make him a nice little-"

Joe Rogan 27:18 Let's make a bad motherfucker belt. (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 27:19 Let's make a nice little silver belt, you know? This little replica of the-

Joe Rogan 27:22 Is it silver-

Kamaru Usman 27:23 It's like... Instead of gold? Yeah, it's like a silver-

Joe Rogan 27:25 It's a different color?

Kamaru Usman 27:26 ... purplish color. It's-

Joe Rogan 27:27 Pull picture of it. I wanna see that thing again.

Kamaru Usman 27:29 Oh my God, it's a-

Joe Rogan 27:30 It's a beautiful belt.

Kamaru Usman 27:31 (laughs) What? The-

Joe Rogan 27:32 It's a beautiful belt.

Kamaru Usman 27:32 ... the UFC belt is beautiful.

Joe Rogan 27:33 Well that's more beautiful.

Kamaru Usman 27:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:35 That's more... It's like saying, like, you know, I mean, you look at a new Corvette, you go, "Oh, that's a beautiful car."

Kamaru Usman 27:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:40 And then you look at a Ferrari, you go, "Oh, that's a better looking car."

Kamaru Usman 27:42 Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:42 "That's better looking."

Kamaru Usman 27:43 Or, or a Bentley. It's like, "Oh."

Joe Rogan 27:46 Yes. Yes.

Kamaru Usman 27:46 I want that.

Joe Rogan 27:47 Yeah, it's another level.

Kamaru Usman 27:48 But it, it's... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:48 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 27:48 But this one's like the Bentley and then the Honda Civic. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:54 (laughs) Outrageous.

Kamaru Usman 27:54 I'm just being honest. I'm being honest.

Joe Rogan 27:56 Yeah, it is. It is silver.

Kamaru Usman 27:57 Look at that thing.

Joe Rogan 27:58 Is that silver? Or is that like just-

Kamaru Usman 27:59 Is that, is that copper? No, that's not copper, it's like a, it's like sterling silver?

Joe Rogan 28:03 It seems kind of goldish in some... I mean, it seems like the lighting.

Kamaru Usman 28:06 Nah, it's, it's sterling silver. It's like a-

Joe Rogan 28:09 I kind of think it's gold.

Kamaru Usman 28:10 No, it's not gold.

Joe Rogan 28:10 Is it gold?

Kamaru Usman 28:11 No.

Joe Rogan 28:12 No?

Kamaru Usman 28:12 No, it's not gold. It's not gold. You think it's bronze? I don't know. Yeah, it's like br-... Is it bronze?

Joe Rogan 28:16 Is it?

Kamaru Usman 28:16 I can't tell. It's not even silver, it's not even second place. It's bronze, huh? (laughs) I mean, this is like... Honestly, this is like a participation medal. You know how when you do the field day- Oh. (laughs) ... in school and they give you the participation medals? They're like, "Here you go kid, you did a great job." And that's what this is.

Joe Rogan 28:30 Well if you beat him, do you get that belt too?

Kamaru Usman 28:32 I want that shit. I want it because-

Joe Rogan 28:34 What would you do with it if you had it? Would you wear both of them?

Kamaru Usman 28:36 No.

Joe Rogan 28:37 What would you do with it, just put it aside?

Kamaru Usman 28:38 Put it in my closet.

Joe Rogan 28:41 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 28:42 (laughs) I would just put it in my closet.

Joe Rogan 28:44 Ah, ah.

Kamaru Usman 28:44 I would just put it in my closet. But it's like there's noth- there's no... I'm... What that means nothing. It was just something to hype-ify. But they've ran, his team has ran with it like, "Yeah, we're the BMF champion."

Joe Rogan 28:55 Smart move. Listen, yeah, and they've been calling this.

Kamaru Usman 28:58 When he, when they called it, when they showed a f- the video of him, when they went to, the camera turned to him during the last pay-per-view- Yes.

Joe Rogan 29:04 ... the fucking pop was gigantic. Everybody went crazy when they saw him.

Kamaru Usman 29:07 Yeah. I mean, yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:08 Like the hype is real.

Kamaru Usman 29:09 Yeah, he, he... The hype is real.

Joe Rogan 29:11 It's alive.

Kamaru Usman 29:11 You know, it's a-

Joe Rogan 29:12 It's alive and kicking.

Kamaru Usman 29:13 Oh, man. Big, big hype.

Joe Rogan 29:14 People love him.

Kamaru Usman 29:15 Big hype.

Joe Rogan 29:15 People love him.

Kamaru Usman 29:16 Y- y- you know, but that's the thing is people love you until they really see what you are. You know, Darren Till had a lot of hype. And, and shout out to Darren Till. I mean, you know, he's still, you know, growing in this, in this sport. But he had a lot of hype too. Where people were saying, "Oh man, this guy's gonna beat Woodley."

Joe Rogan 29:31 Right.

Kamaru Usman 29:32 Like even at some point I, I was like, "Yo, he might get Woodley."

Joe Rogan 29:35 Really?

Kamaru Usman 29:36 I was like, "He might get Woodley." And you could see in that fight-

Joe Rogan 29:39 I thought it was severely disrespectful-

Kamaru Usman 29:40 ... even, even... Very disrespectful.

Joe Rogan 29:41 ... that they were, that they were making him the favorite in that fight. I'm like, "You guys-"

Kamaru Usman 29:44 Very disrespectful.

Joe Rogan 29:44 "... are crazy. You're crazy." I mean, this guy's already fought one of the best strikers twice in, in Wonderboy, and beat him both times. Not just that, he was the only one that hurt him.

Kamaru Usman 29:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:55 Like he hurt Wonderboy bad in both of those fights. Wonderboy never hurt him. So you got a guy who's arguably one of the best strikers to ever do it in the welterweight division. I mean, Wonderboy's a fantastic kickboxer.

Kamaru Usman 30:06 Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:06 Tyron smashed him.

Kamaru Usman 30:08 Speaking of that, you saw what Wonderboy did to Masvidal.

Joe Rogan 30:11 Yeah. He out-pointed him.

Kamaru Usman 30:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:14 Yeah. Good fight.

Kamaru Usman 30:15 I mean, he dropped him like several times.

Joe Rogan 30:16 Did he drop him?

Kamaru Usman 30:17 Yeah, a couple times.

Joe Rogan 30:18 Well, Darren dropped him too.

Kamaru Usman 30:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:19 Darren Till dropped, uh, Masvidal too, but-

Kamaru Usman 30:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:21 ... Masvidal starched him.

Kamaru Usman 30:23 And, and you know, I give credit where credit is due, you know. But, um, like, like I'm saying back to that, like yeah, everyone be... I was, I was almost like... And you saw with like, at some... I'm sure Woodley was a little afraid in that fight.... because it's like-

Joe Rogan 30:36 Do you think so?

Kamaru Usman 30:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:36 I don't think so.

Kamaru Usman 30:37 Yeah. It, you, you have to be. You have to be.

Joe Rogan 30:39 I think he also-

Kamaru Usman 30:39 With all the hype they were putting behind him, you have to be. 'Cause at some point, as a cham-... And that's what makes you sane as a champion, is, is that little fear. It's like, "Wow, they're really saying, 'Is this kid really good enough?' He's the favorite? Is he good enough? Can he beat me?"

Joe Rogan 30:52 I thought that was so crazy.

Kamaru Usman 30:54 Can he... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:54 There's, sometimes there's odds, and I'm like, "This is just, this doesn't make any sense at all to me."

Kamaru Usman 30:59 I agree.

Joe Rogan 31:00 You know, there's certain odds where I'm like, "You guys are like..." Who's making these odds?

Kamaru Usman 31:04 Yeah. I- I'm... Beats me. Especially these rankings, too. I'm like, they- they've got this kid at, at number three. He hasn't fought, number four, he hasn't fought number one, number two, he hasn't fought number five, he hasn't fought number six. I'm like, "How in the hell is he at number three?"

Joe Rogan 31:17 Masvidal's number three?

Kamaru Usman 31:18 Number three.

Joe Rogan 31:18 Does, does anybody have it? Well, who makes the rankings?

Kamaru Usman 31:21 I-

Joe Rogan 31:21 The rankings are weird.

Kamaru Usman 31:22 Okay. We- I don't, yeah, I don't know who makes the rankings. That's the thing.

Joe Rogan 31:24 They're weird. 'Cause sometimes a guy will beat a guy, and then he'll be below that guy in the rankings.

Kamaru Usman 31:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:28 Like, what?

Kamaru Usman 31:29 Wonderboy, Wonderboy put on a clinic versus... Wonderboy, I think is, is he even top 10? I don't think Wonderboy's-

Joe Rogan 31:36 Wonderboy?

Kamaru Usman 31:36 I think he might be like nine or something like that. Which I- I think is insane. Because-

Joe Rogan 31:40 Well, the Vicente Luque fight, which was his last fight-

Kamaru Usman 31:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:44 ... that was, um, that... I think h- I think he was like ranked, I wanna say 11 or something.

Kamaru Usman 31:50 Yeah, that, now that's, that's-

Joe Rogan 31:51 Vicente Luque was.

Kamaru Usman 31:51 ... that's crazy. Yeah, Vicente is tough.

Joe Rogan 31:55 Tough guy.

Kamaru Usman 31:56 Tough guy.

Joe Rogan 31:56 Maybe too tough.

Kamaru Usman 31:56 Tough fighter.

Joe Rogan 31:57 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 31:58 Like, a lot of people are gonna have their hands full with Vicente.

Joe Rogan 32:01 Oh, he's an animal.

Kamaru Usman 32:01 You know?

Joe Rogan 32:02 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 32:02 An animal. There's a couple guys in division right now, and I see these guys, you know. Geoff Neal is another guy.

Joe Rogan 32:08 Oh, he's the one.

Kamaru Usman 32:10 I see (laughs) , I see these guys.

Joe Rogan 32:10 That's the dark horse.

Kamaru Usman 32:11 And, and I'm not taking my eyes off none of these guys. I see all these guys, which is why I can't afford to, to take five months off-

Joe Rogan 32:20 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 32:20 ... to let my knee feel this, some type of way. Like, I- I gotta keep working.

Joe Rogan 32:23 Geoff Neal's the most promising to me. I- I- I watch that guy move.

Kamaru Usman 32:27 He's a killer. He's a killer.

Joe Rogan 32:27 ... and I'm like, "Jesus Christ, he's talented."

Kamaru Usman 32:29 Yeah, he, he's a killer.

Joe Rogan 32:29 You know he was waiting tables just like a year ago?

Kamaru Usman 32:33 Man, that- that's- that's his struggle.

Joe Rogan 32:34 Yeah, his last fight against Mike Perry, I believe that was his first camp where he didn't have a job. I'm pretty sure, I'm- I'm sorry if I'm incorrect.

Kamaru Usman 32:42 A- and big respect to that.

Joe Rogan 32:42 I think that's what John Anik said.

Kamaru Usman 32:44 And big respect, and big respect to that.

Joe Rogan 32:45 He's fucking talented.

Kamaru Usman 32:45 And big respect to that, because, you know, a lot of guys are afraid to even do that.

Joe Rogan 32:49 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 32:50 You know, and then there, you got, you get some of the guys that they get in the UFC like, "Oh, my problem is solved. I'm good. I'm good now." But they're still struggling.

Joe Rogan 32:56 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 32:57 Even when you first get in, you're still making less than minimum wage. When you, when you boil it down, you, you're making less than minimum wage.

Joe Rogan 33:03 That's crazy.

Kamaru Usman 33:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:04 That is so crazy. But it's also like, you gotta have good food, right?

Kamaru Usman 33:08 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:08 You gotta have, you gotta be able to afford massage, you gotta be able to afford some things.

Kamaru Usman 33:13 That costs money.

Joe Rogan 33:13 If you're in a... Yeah, if you're in a hardcore training camp and maybe it is better to have like a little bit of a job. And I think Geoff was waiting tables.

Kamaru Usman 33:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:20 It's, it... To me, it's crazy. Like, it just seems like where's the money going? Like how much money is a cage fight worth? It should be worth a lot.

Kamaru Usman 33:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:29 Like if (laughs) you're fighting on, you're fighting on TV, like fucking-

Kamaru Usman 33:33 It should be worth a whole lot.

Joe Rogan 33:34 ... that should be all you need to do.

Kamaru Usman 33:37 Yeah. Now, let me see. My first fight in the UFC, let's say I made 10 and 10.

Joe Rogan 33:42 Jesus Christ. That's crazy to me.

Kamaru Usman 33:44 10 and 10. So boom, I go win the fight, $20,000. Boom, I'm like, "Oh sh-... I got 20 grand." All right, now first and foremost, 20% comes off, manager and- and the gym.

Joe Rogan 33:55 Right.

Kamaru Usman 33:55 Boom, off the top.

Joe Rogan 33:56 Then taxes.

Kamaru Usman 33:57 Gone. Taxes. You know, boom, off the top.

Joe Rogan 34:01 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 34:01 And then it's like, uh, oh yeah, my, my daughter just turned one. Her birthday party's gonna totally cost $2,500.

Joe Rogan 34:08 Oh.

Kamaru Usman 34:09 'Cause it's one, you gotta do it big.

Joe Rogan 34:11 Yeah, yeah.

Kamaru Usman 34:11 Boom, off the top gone. My car, you know, they've been letting me, you know, kinda pile up that car payment for a while now. So I need to pay that, and the insurance, everything that's backed up. So that's like 3,200 boom, off the top.

Joe Rogan 34:25 Money's all gone. Everything's gone.

Kamaru Usman 34:27 Within two weeks, I sat at home still living with Rashad, like I got $3,200 left. I fought like two and a half weeks ago. What... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:38 That's crazy.

Kamaru Usman 34:39 What just happened?

Joe Rogan 34:40 And it's gotta last you.

Kamaru Usman 34:41 And it's-

Joe Rogan 34:41 'Cause that's your source of income.

Kamaru Usman 34:42 That's it.

Joe Rogan 34:43 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 34:44 You know, thank God I got that- the- the performance bonus in that fight.

Joe Rogan 34:48 How much was the performance bonus?

Kamaru Usman 34:49 That was 50.

Joe Rogan 34:50 They used to give locker room bonuses, right? Is that a thing of the past?

Kamaru Usman 34:54 Yeah. Um, it- it- it's, it is but I-

Joe Rogan 34:55 They used to come in and cut checks?

Kamaru Usman 34:56 It is, but I think, um, you know, it depends on who the... if you're the right guy, and you- you go out there and do something special a certain night.

Joe Rogan 35:02 Hmm.

Kamaru Usman 35:02 I- I mean, I think Dana is still generous enough, depending on his mood, how he's feeling.

Joe Rogan 35:08 Hmm.

Kamaru Usman 35:08 He's still generous enough to maybe say, "You know what? Take care of you." 'Cause I'm us- you see now, he'll just send a couple guys extra. He's like, "Man, these- these guys did great, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna send them bonuses too." So he'll just bonus these guys.

Joe Rogan 35:19 That's very cool.

Kamaru Usman 35:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:21 Yeah, it's not enough money. It's not enough money for fighting.

Kamaru Usman 35:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:24 You know? I mean, it's-

Kamaru Usman 35:25 No.

Joe Rogan 35:25 ... it's interesting 'cause a boxing match, some of the people would say, "Well, that's what boxers get." I don't think boxing is as rough on you. If you're doing a six-round boxing match and you're only making a couple thousand dollars, like I kinda get you're moving up the ladder and that's just how it goes. But the camps that you guys go through when it comes to wrestling, when it comes to submissions, when it comes to kickboxing, there's so much more potential for damage on your body.

Kamaru Usman 35:52 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 35:52 It's just so much harder.

Kamaru Usman 35:54 It- it's...

Joe Rogan 35:54 Just getting your legs kicked and just take-downs, just those two factors, like there's so much more beating on your back. Boxers are obviously tough as shit-

Kamaru Usman 36:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:02 ... and they obviously have a very difficult job. It's not, no one's, no one's saying boxing is easy.

Kamaru Usman 36:06 No.

Joe Rogan 36:07 But comparatively, physically on your body, like a six-round, you know, pro boxing match, when you're in the- the preliminaries-

Kamaru Usman 36:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:14 ... as opposed to a UFC fight. Oh, a UFC, a three-round UFC fight can be fucking chaos.

Kamaru Usman 36:18 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:19 And if you're only making 10 grand...

Kamaru Usman 36:21 I- i- it's, uh, imagine losing the fight.

Joe Rogan 36:24 Then you only get 10.

Kamaru Usman 36:25 You only get 10.

Joe Rogan 36:25 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 36:26 Then you go home. Now, take (laughs) all this stuff that I just, uh, mentioned, you're in the hole.

Joe Rogan 36:31 Yeah. Well, now imagine you're fighting not even for the UFC, you're fighting for Bellator, right?

Kamaru Usman 36:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:35 You're making even less than that.

Kamaru Usman 36:36 Less than that. It- i- it's... And I have friends that, that fight for Bellator, I have friends that fight for, you know, other promotions. And my little brother's fighting too.And so, he's making his way up too. And, and, you know, the one thing about him is I have to keep him somewhat grounded because, you know, he came... He was a big foot- big time football player. And, and, and, you know, potentially should be, you know... Still feels like he should be in the NFL, you know. But the, the thing about that, uh, is keeping his mind in where it should be. That, "Hey, this is why it's gonna feel good when you start making million dollar paychecks." It's okay to make one and one now. It's okay to make 2000 and 2000 now.

Joe Rogan 37:12 How long has he been fighting now?

Kamaru Usman 37:13 Because... Fighting, uh... I wanna say a year and a half, maybe.

Joe Rogan 37:17 How long has he been training?

Kamaru Usman 37:18 A year and a half. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:19 Oh, shit.

Kamaru Usman 37:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:20 So he's just getting into it.

Kamaru Usman 37:21 Yeah, just getting into it.

Joe Rogan 37:22 Oh, that's gotta be crazy. Your brother's-

Kamaru Usman 37:23 Year and a half too.

Joe Rogan 37:24 ... a fucking champion of the world.

Kamaru Usman 37:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:25 And you're just kind of getting your wheels greased up and-

Kamaru Usman 37:28 See... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:28 ... getting on the road? (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 37:29 And I'm... And I, I try to, um... Honestly, I try to make it not, not weird for him because it's, uh... You know, we're a family to where we... Like, we're very, very close family. But imagine boys, that we're all competitive. Boys, like if your brother's doing this good, uh, uh, and like you wanna do it better.

Joe Rogan 37:47 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 37:47 You know? And I'm imagining how it is for him, you know, to have a brother that's the champion to where now you're in the sport that your brother was a champion in.

Joe Rogan 37:56 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 37:56 Like how is that? And, and I, I, I don't ever wanna make it weird for him. I wanna make it as easy as possible for him because I want him to be-

Joe Rogan 38:02 Good for you, man.

Kamaru Usman 38:03 I want him to be bigger than... 'Cause he's a heavyweight. Now once he gets that-

Joe Rogan 38:06 Really?

Kamaru Usman 38:06 Yeah, once he gets that-

Joe Rogan 38:07 How big is he?

Kamaru Usman 38:08 I think he's like 6'2", 255, 260.

Joe Rogan 38:11 Jesus.

Kamaru Usman 38:11 I mean when he's... I mean he's a freak.

Joe Rogan 38:13 (laughs) Jesus.

Kamaru Usman 38:14 I mean he's... My brother's a diesel, big, big dude. And if it's, um... When he gets that striking down and really starts sitting on punches... Because he wrestled in high school too. He was a high school state runner up. When he starts sitting on punches and, and, and really putting his... He just got his first standing knockout his last fight. So when he starts putting these guys to sleep, I think he's gonna be a humongous star in the sport.

Joe Rogan 38:35 And how old is he?

Kamaru Usman 38:36 He is 30.

Joe Rogan 38:38 That's a weird time to start though, isn't it?

Kamaru Usman 38:40 He is, but he's so freaking athletic. It's, it's... Oh my God. He like (laughs) -

Joe Rogan 38:44 Well look at Craig Hardy, right?

Kamaru Usman 38:45 Look at... Yeah. Look, if you guys go online, go to his Instagram @umohammed97. Like look at some of... Him and his strength coach are the most outrageous, funniest, like, guys that you will see online. I mean, if you... It's the fact that he's still a little under the radar. Now let him be, get in the UFC and get to where I'm at, those videos-

Joe Rogan 39:08 Well you just put him on the radar right now. (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 39:10 Every, every video would be over millions of views-

Joe Rogan 39:13 Really?

Kamaru Usman 39:13 ... because they do the most outrageous things. But it works for him.

Joe Rogan 39:16 That's him right there?

Kamaru Usman 39:17 That's him right there.

Joe Rogan 39:18 Dude. (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 39:18 But it works-

Joe Rogan 39:19 Brother is jacked.

Kamaru Usman 39:20 It works for him.

Joe Rogan 39:21 Oh my God.

Kamaru Usman 39:22 Now you watch him training.

Joe Rogan 39:23 Let me see some of this.

Kamaru Usman 39:24 This is, this is him learning counters. See? Right there.

Joe Rogan 39:28 He's a big fella.

Kamaru Usman 39:29 Oh, huge. Go fast. (punching bags)

Joe Rogan 39:34 It's crazy that he's only been doing it a year and a half.

Kamaru Usman 39:37 Yeah. Only been doing it a year and a half.

Joe Rogan 39:38 So what made him decide to put football aside and start fighting?

Kamaru Usman 39:42 It, it was just... He was caught in that transition of, of trying to get, get into the NFL. Trying to get back in and, um, as a free agent. And because the NFL, man, you got thousands of guys that come out for the same position every year.

Joe Rogan 39:55 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 39:56 And they're... Of course the NFL wants a newer, fresher, younger guy that they can get for cheaper.

Joe Rogan 40:00 Right.

Kamaru Usman 40:00 And, and, you know? And so the longer you are out, it makes it so much harder to get back in.

Joe Rogan 40:05 I can also-

Kamaru Usman 40:06 So...

Joe Rogan 40:06 ... imagine when you're getting close to 30.

Kamaru Usman 40:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:08 Like these, these kids are 22, 21, full of piss and vinegar.

Kamaru Usman 40:13 (laughs) He still thinks he's 26. So he's...

Joe Rogan 40:15 Oh yeah?

Kamaru Usman 40:16 He still... My brother still acts like it. He still got the energy of a, of a 21-year-old. I mean, he is, uh... He's the whole definition in my mind of what it is to be... Have alliteration. You know he's always lit, always.

Joe Rogan 40:29 (laughs) Alliteration.

Kamaru Usman 40:31 He's always lit. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:32 Did he come to you and say, "Hey, Kamaru, I'm thinking about fighting." Did he-

Kamaru Usman 40:36 No.

Joe Rogan 40:36 Did you guys have a conversation? No.

Kamaru Usman 40:38 No, that's the, that's the weird... That's the weirdest thing about it is, uh... See, I know my brother so well to where, uh... At some point he's, he's... And he's very prideful too. You know? At some point, he, he didn't wanna... He's not gonna say... I've kind of like roundabout... I, I can tell when he's getting into it. 'Cause I brought him in. He went... My first ever fight, you know, I brought him to Nebraska with me. And so he goes to all my fights and I could tell that he was flirting with it.

Joe Rogan 41:01 Really?

Kamaru Usman 41:02 Because he, you know, he kinda started training a little bit. And um, and I heard him tell a coach like, "Yeah, yeah. I think I'm gonna just start fighting." You know? But... And I, I tried to have that conversation, but it's kinda weird with him 'cause it's kind of a weird dynamic, you know? But I love him to death and, um... But then when I found out that he was kind of really serious about it, I'm like, "Okay, this... Let's, let's lay the plan out for you because I want you to get there faster than I did. I want you to get there... Have an easier time than I did to get to the top." You know? So he's, he's working his way up. He's got great coaches that he's working with right now.

Joe Rogan 41:33 Where's he training out of?

Kamaru Usman 41:34 He's training out of Dallas. He goes out and trains with... At SIF where, you know, Geoff Neal-

Joe Rogan 41:39 Mm-hmm, yeah.

Kamaru Usman 41:39 And those guys train as well. He's got, uh, striking coaches.

Joe Rogan 41:41 Greg Camp.

Kamaru Usman 41:41 You know Steven, uh, Steven Wright down there who, uh, worked with Johnny Hendrix.

Joe Rogan 41:46 Oh, okay.

Kamaru Usman 41:46 And so, yeah, he, he, he's learning. He's learning fast. And of course his strength coach out there, you know.

Joe Rogan 41:51 Do you train with him at all?

Kamaru Usman 41:54 N- not, uh... Not really. Not a lot. We haven't really trained a lot together because I, I'm in Florida.

Joe Rogan 42:00 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 42:00 And I'm traveling so much-

Joe Rogan 42:01 Right.

Kamaru Usman 42:01 ... to where... But I'm, I'm in the process to where I'm gonna start getting him to Florida more and more now because now he's... You know, he's learning more. Now he knows the ground a little bit. You know, now he's striking, he's starting to pick up. Because, uh, look, the worst thing I wanna do is bring him into a camp full of killers like in our gym and have them discourage him.

Joe Rogan 42:21 Right.

Kamaru Usman 42:22 You know? And I, I would hate to do that.

Joe Rogan 42:24 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 42:24 Because he's, he's so talented. He's so athletic. I don't wanna stun that so early. But now it's, it's getting to the point where now it, it's... I can bring him in for-

Joe Rogan 42:33 Test him a little bit.

Kamaru Usman 42:33 ... months at a time-

Joe Rogan 42:34 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 42:34 ... to where... You know, to see how... Where he's at because... I mean, he's ready... Well, he thinks he can fly tomorrow.

Joe Rogan 42:39 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 42:39 You know but it...... you know, I want him to walk first.

Joe Rogan 42:42 That's such an important factor of not discouraging a guy, but also testing him. Like it's a- it's a fine-

Kamaru Usman 42:47 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:47 ... fine line, right?

Kamaru Usman 42:47 Yes. Very, very fine line because you- you have to be tested. Because if you're never really tested, the worst place that you wanna get tested is inside-

Joe Rogan 42:54 Right.

Kamaru Usman 42:54 ... that cage. I'm a firm believer that there's nothing worse than being locked in a cage, getting the shit beat out of y- beat out of you, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Joe Rogan 43:02 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 43:03 You know, so I- I would hate for that to happen to him.

Joe Rogan 43:05 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 43:06 And like, it happened to me in practice (laughs) before.

Joe Rogan 43:10 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 43:11 (laughs) Before I got there. I- I- I- I don't forget the moment at all. And so, I don't want that to happen to him inside that cage.

Joe Rogan 43:18 Hmm. Yeah, it's gotta be strange seeing your brother just getting the ball rolling and just getting into it.

Kamaru Usman 43:26 It's a good feeling, though. It- it's a really good feeling, seeing him kinda pick it up doing that.

Joe Rogan 43:31 How many fights does he have now?

Kamaru Usman 43:32 I think he's six and one now.

Joe Rogan 43:34 Oh, wow.

Kamaru Usman 43:34 Yeah, five and one or six and one, now. And so, it- it's, um-

Joe Rogan 43:38 So he's got off to a quick start.

Kamaru Usman 43:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:40 He's having quite a few fights.

Kamaru Usman 43:41 Yeah, yeah. But that's the thing is, you know, you don't wanna, you know, raking all this fight and be 10 and O-

Joe Rogan 43:47 Right.

Kamaru Usman 43:47 ... you really haven't fought no one, you really haven't been tested.

Joe Rogan 43:49 Right, right.

Kamaru Usman 43:49 And then- then you get there and then you get beat up. You're like, "Oh, man."

Joe Rogan 43:52 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 43:52 Now you're second-guessing yourself.

Joe Rogan 43:54 Yeah, that's the- the- the difference, and we were talking about this the other day, the difference between the boxing way of raising a fighter versus the- the UFC really, you don't get a chance to pick your fights.

Kamaru Usman 44:05 No.

Joe Rogan 44:05 In the UFC, like in a- in a boxer's career, the manager would say, "Okay, let's try you with a guy who's longer, who's got a good jab. Okay, we did that, let's try you with a guy who likes to stay glued to your chest. Let's test him with this. Let's get him in there with a journeyman who's a little slippery-

Kamaru Usman 44:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:20 ... who's got some good experience, and let's- let's give you some seasoning." The UFC is like, "Do you want this fight?"

Kamaru Usman 44:25 Yeah (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 44:26 And like, "Hey, you wanna fight Jon Jones on 18 days notice?"

Kamaru Usman 44:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:30 Like, "What?"

Kamaru Usman 44:30 Yeah. A- and that's it. That's it. See, boxing's been around so long, there's so many boxers that you can pick from.

Joe Rogan 44:37 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 44:37 Because that's, ev- everyone does it, does that.

Joe Rogan 44:39 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 44:40 You know, there's these long guys that are journeymen that have a lot of losses, some guys that are kinda .500. You can kinda just pick the guys, and then you have the promising guy that you're trying to build and you can just kinda pick guys around him. But you- MMA's not really like that yet because it's still so new, everybody's trying to be a champion.

Joe Rogan 44:58 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 44:59 So it makes it difficult to be able to pick guys. And on top of it, then you get to the UFC where it's like, this is a fight, yes or no? Which I- I have gotten a call, "Hey, you're gonna go to Brazil and you're gonna fight this guy. If you say no, all right, we're gonna extend your contract. If you say yes, all right, see you there."

Joe Rogan 45:16 That's weird, right? You can't- you can't negotiate like you can with a normal promoter.

Kamaru Usman 45:20 No. No.

Joe Rogan 45:21 That's very... (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 45:22 No.

Joe Rogan 45:23 So we were talking about your strength and conditioning because of your knees, and we kinda got sidetracked. Like, what kinda stuff does he have you doing to replace running, and like- like-

Kamaru Usman 45:32 Oh, to replace running, like I- I- I work in the pool a lot.

Joe Rogan 45:35 Hmm.

Kamaru Usman 45:35 By myself. I- I- I run a lot in the pool. And, you know, I swim too. I'm not the best swimmer in the world, but you know, I get in there and I- I- I get after it and I get tired.

Joe Rogan 45:46 You know those things-

Kamaru Usman 45:47 You know, I really get to work.

Joe Rogan 45:47 ... that GSP uses, where he has like these things-

Kamaru Usman 45:48 Yeah, I've seen them. I've seen them

Narrator 45:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:49 ... like, he puts on his hands and on his feet? No, the- you like go-

Kamaru Usman 45:52 I play with those, yeah. I play with those.

Joe Rogan 45:53 What are those things? What are those things called?

Kamaru Usman 45:54 Uh, um, they're- they're kinda, they create the resistance in the- in the water.

Joe Rogan 45:58 Right.

Kamaru Usman 45:58 You know, so i- it kinda gives you the resistance pulling, pushing and- and, you know, throwing punches with him. It- it just gives you that extra work that you need.

Joe Rogan 46:05 George loves that shit.

Kamaru Usman 46:06 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:06 He loves it. It's like his main, uh, training.

Kamaru Usman 46:09 And I love George.

Joe Rogan 46:09 Like strength and conditioning. (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 46:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:12 You want that fight?

Kamaru Usman 46:13 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 46:13 If I could give you a magic wand. If I could give you a magic wand, say, Kamaru, you can pick, ping. Who- who are you pointing that magic wand at?

Kamaru Usman 46:20 GSP, all day.

Joe Rogan 46:20 GSP.

Kamaru Usman 46:21 All day.

Joe Rogan 46:22 Just for the legend status.

Kamaru Usman 46:24 Yeah, because, um, George did, he went out the way you're supposed to go out.

Joe Rogan 46:30 Hmm.

Kamaru Usman 46:30 And he can still do it. Like, he proved it two years ago.

Joe Rogan 46:33 Proved it, yeah.

Kamaru Usman 46:33 He came back and- and not just do it, go up a weight class-

Joe Rogan 46:36 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 46:36 ... and- and get it done. He can still do it. He's training, he's one of those guys that's not just gonna stop training.

Joe Rogan 46:41 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 46:41 He's been training, he's still training. Um, a- and I know he's, he can compete still.

Joe Rogan 46:46 Feras says he's still the best fucking guy he's ever seen. He's like, "The guy's still the fucking man, right now in the gym, training hard, like nobody could touch him."

Kamaru Usman 46:54 Yeah, and- and I like to test that, you know? With, a- and- and I, big respect to George. This is no disrespect by any means, but there's a reason guys like myself and- and- and- and Khabib wanna fight him.

Joe Rogan 47:05 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 47:06 I- it's because we- we- we wanna test ourselves. This is not a matter of disrespect and, "Oh, I wanna beat this guy's ass." No, i- it's George was the best. He did everything the right way a- a- and- and got to the top and walked away, and he can still do it. So we wanna test ourself against a guy like that because we, uh, we pride ourselves on being the best. We've worked tirelessly to get to this point to where it's not necessarily for hype, it's not for the money. Like all that is good, yes, you know, that- that's great. But we wanna test ourself against the best to ever do it.

Joe Rogan 47:41 Hmm.

Kamaru Usman 47:41 And that's what George symbolizes. And- and of course myself. I- I'm, he's in my weight, I'm (laughs) you know... Now I'm the king, he was the king, like...

Joe Rogan 47:49 It's interesting that you would prefer that over Conor 'cause I think the Conor fight would be the biggest payday, right?

Kamaru Usman 47:54 Absolutely. I think, ah...

Joe Rogan 47:56 You don't think so?

Kamaru Usman 47:58 Well, well, I mean, I don't know. They're both-

Joe Rogan 48:00 Red panties night.

Kamaru Usman 48:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:01 That's red panties night.

Kamaru Usman 48:02 We all love red panties (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 48:04 I mean, the last pay-per-view they're saying tracked just below Conor and Khabib, it's a fucking...

Kamaru Usman 48:10 Really?

Joe Rogan 48:10 They think it's more than two million pay-per-view buys.

Kamaru Usman 48:12 Wow.

Joe Rogan 48:12 Huge, huge. His comeback.

Kamaru Usman 48:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:15 That motherfucker has charisma.

Kamaru Usman 48:16 Absolutely. And- and you can't take anything away from Conor, man. Conor is- is- has- has put himself in that- in that pot, in that- that status, to be that guy. A- and even, uh, sometimes I have to think, I'm like, man, like the... 'Cause some guys get envious of that. Like, how did he do that? How did... Like some guys are just special like that.

Joe Rogan 48:33 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 48:33 And Conor is that guy. He's special like that.

Joe Rogan 48:35 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 48:36 You know? So he, he, people just gravitate towards him and- and he, you know, special guy. But can you imagine me fighting Conor? Like that wouldn't even be fair.

Joe Rogan 48:46 No.

Kamaru Usman 48:47 It would not be fair. Like, I give everyone has a puncher's chance, but it would not be fair. Like, you saw what Khabib did to him at 55. Now imagine me doing that to him at seven- and I'm not just gonna take him down. I'm... (laughs) Uh, uh, I'm gonna march forward, I'm gonna hit this guy, I'm gonna beat on him, I'm gonna take him down. I'm going to... I would do some, some bad things to Conor. And, n- and not just because I, it's not that I don't like the guy. I, I mean, Conor is Conor. You know, but-

Joe Rogan 49:16 You just think that he's a natural 55.

Kamaru Usman 49:18 Pshh. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:19 And he fought at 45, and you'd have to-

Kamaru Usman 49:21 45, like-

Joe Rogan 49:21 ... chop both your fucking legs off to make 45.

Kamaru Usman 49:23 N- I, I, not e- that's-

Joe Rogan 49:24 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 49:25 When they say impossible, that, that's absolutely impossible.

Joe Rogan 49:27 Literally impossible.

Kamaru Usman 49:28 Impossible.

Joe Rogan 49:28 Yeah. You'd have to get a tapeworm.

Kamaru Usman 49:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:30 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 49:30 It would be, it would be bad. Like, you ever seen, like, you ever see me at weight, get down to, to weight?

Joe Rogan 49:35 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 49:36 I look real African, don't I?

Joe Rogan 49:38 You look very thin. (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 49:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:41 Well, I, I mean, I just-

Kamaru Usman 49:42 You see how Joe, you see how Joe said that? "You're very thin." Right? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:44 You, I could tell you are sucking a lot of water.

Kamaru Usman 49:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:47 But that, you know, um, George Lockhart says that big muscular guys like yourself, that it's easier for them to cut weight because your muscle's mostly water.

Kamaru Usman 49:54 And that's, yeah, and I, and that's the thing I worked with, with Cory on, is, um, we've, we've been able to keep more muscle on now through camp to where it makes that cut a lot easier.

Joe Rogan 50:07 That's so funny because that's sorta, in a lot of people's eyes, that would be counterintuitive.

Kamaru Usman 50:10 I know.

Joe Rogan 50:10 Like, he was talking about Yoel Romero, and he's like, "That's the perfect body for cutting weight." I'm like, "That is so crazy." Like, it looks like-

Kamaru Usman 50:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:16 ... the guy's got no weight to lose.

Kamaru Usman 50:18 I, Yoel is hard too, like, like have you ever-

Joe Rogan 50:20 Like a brick.

Kamaru Usman 50:20 Yeah. Have you ever, you hugged him?

Joe Rogan 50:22 Yes. (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 50:22 Like, I, I, I hugged him, I hugged him a couple, uh, couple weeks ago. I'm like, "What? How? What is this?"

Joe Rogan 50:27 Well, Luke Rockhold said when he fought him, he said, "He feels like he's made out of steel."

Kamaru Usman 50:30 Yeah, I can understand that.

Joe Rogan 50:31 He goes like, "Even when you hit him, it hurts."

Kamaru Usman 50:32 (laughs) I can understand that. 'Cause Luke kicked him. Luke tore up his legs-

Joe Rogan 50:37 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 50:37 ... in that fight.

Joe Rogan 50:38 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 50:38 And, uh, and then we're in the back, and I'm looking at Luke's shin and it's all torn up. I mean-

Joe Rogan 50:43 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 50:43 ... he's bleeding, cut up. I'm like, "What?"

Joe Rogan 50:45 Was that before the staph infection?

Kamaru Usman 50:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:48 Is that what caused the staph infection?

Kamaru Usman 50:49 I don't know. It could've been.

Joe Rogan 50:51 'Cause he-

Kamaru Usman 50:51 Because, because I think it was at that, at that same leg.

Joe Rogan 50:53 His knee's, I mean his shin, rather, is so fucked up. Like he's had skin grafts and all kinds of shit, and it's, he still has to put a sleeve over it when he fights.

Kamaru Usman 51:00 Yeah. It, it-

Joe Rogan 51:01 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 51:01 ... it was bad, you know. Good thing he's good-looking.

Joe Rogan 51:04 He's a handsome devil, isn't he?

Kamaru Usman 51:06 I, I... Look s- uh, I mean, no homo, but-

Joe Rogan 51:08 Little too, little too handsome.

Kamaru Usman 51:09 ... pause, but he's a good-looking dude. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:09 Little too handsome. It's like confusing.

Kamaru Usman 51:12 And then now with that-

Joe Rogan 51:12 Like how are you so good at fighting? He's so beautiful.

Kamaru Usman 51:15 (laughs) Can you imagine a good-looking guy beating you up?

Joe Rogan 51:17 Beating the fuck out of you too.

Kamaru Usman 51:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:19 Not just beating you up, like you have zero chance.

Kamaru Usman 51:21 Yeah, and then kicking you in the head at the same time.

Joe Rogan 51:23 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 51:23 You wake up, what happened?

Joe Rogan 51:24 Beautiful-

Kamaru Usman 51:25 Oh no, that good-looking guy beat your shit out of you.

Joe Rogan 51:26 Beautiful world champion.

Kamaru Usman 51:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:28 Like, what? That's not suppo- beautiful, tall, perfect bone structure, world champion. What?

Kamaru Usman 51:33 And now you walk through every airport or every, uh, uh, uh, mall-

Joe Rogan 51:38 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 51:38 ... and his face is on cologne.

Joe Rogan 51:40 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 51:40 His face is on-

Joe Rogan 51:41 Looking pretty, duck face.

Kamaru Usman 51:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:43 Makeup.

Kamaru Usman 51:43 The Zulada Steel, Blue Steel. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:46 slapping ] That mean that's what he's doing now, right? I mean, he's done.

Kamaru Usman 51:49 Oh, yeah, he-

Joe Rogan 51:49 He's basically done fighting, right? For now?

Kamaru Usman 51:51 I don't know. You can't, you know, Luke is one of those weird guys. You can't just say, "Oh, it's over." You know, Luke is one of those guy, I think he can wake up, get up tomorrow on the couch like, "Ah, I wanna go train. Let's take a fight."

Joe Rogan 52:03 Really?

Kamaru Usman 52:03 You know, I, I, I think he's one of those guys. And yeah, like, I don't think, it's not over for him completely. I think he can still compete, you know, it's just that-

Joe Rogan 52:10 Don't you think that he should be 185 though? I, well here's my thought.

Kamaru Usman 52:14 Luke's a big guy.

Joe Rogan 52:14 He is a big guy, but here's my thought. There should be more weight classes, period. 85 to 205 is bonkers. The fact there's a 20-pound gap like that.

Kamaru Usman 52:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:22 That's, that's 20 steaks. Think of 20 steaks.

Kamaru Usman 52:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:26 That's a giant amount of fucking meat.

Kamaru Usman 52:28 That's true.

Joe Rogan 52:29 Like you're, you're, you're, you're talking about two different categories of people. 10 pounds is reasonable. And, you know, obviously boxing it's much less.

Kamaru Usman 52:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:37 They, you know, they have 54, then they have 60, then they have 68. They have weird gaps, like box-

Kamaru Usman 52:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:42 ... boxing has some-

Kamaru Usman 52:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:43 ... strange gaps, like 47-

Kamaru Usman 52:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:45 ... 54. It's weird.

Kamaru Usman 52:46 But-

Joe Rogan 52:46 But I think 10 is good.

Kamaru Usman 52:48 Yeah. I, I agree with you, but then, you know, like look at boxing. You can't... Do you even know all the weight classes? Can you, can you, can you-

Joe Rogan 52:54 I don't-

Kamaru Usman 52:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:55 ... 'cause I'm not that much of a fan.

Kamaru Usman 52:57 Yeah. You know-

Joe Rogan 52:57 I don't know who the champions are in all the weight classes.

Kamaru Usman 52:59 So that's the thing. And, and then it's, you know, that's the thing about it is, is, you know, UFC has this mystique right now to where you, you know the champions.

Joe Rogan 53:07 Yes.

Kamaru Usman 53:07 You, you know, there's only a few weight classes. Now you start adding to that, which I, I agree there should be more.

Joe Rogan 53:13 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 53:13 You know. Does that dilute everything that's going on? Which I don't think it will, because I, I thought once, you know, the UFC went to, uh, change an- and left Fox or, or left this, that I'm like, "Oh man, this is gonna die out." You know, or when they, they kinda-

Joe Rogan 53:29 Did it really?

Kamaru Usman 53:29 I was like, "Man, I don't know if this sport's gonna, gonna keep going the way it is." Or when they sold to WME, I'm like, "I don't know if this is gonna keep going." And then it just, it's one of those things. It's, it's a original sport. It doesn't matter where you're at. Everybody speaks fighting.

Joe Rogan 53:43 Yes. Well, I felt like when they went to ESPN, I'm like, "Jesus, this is perfect."

Kamaru Usman 53:47 Oh yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:47 "It's gonna be bigger."

Kamaru Usman 53:48 Oh yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:48 I thought it was an amazing move.

Kamaru Usman 53:50 Oh yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:50 From like ESPN?

Kamaru Usman 53:51 And it's proven-

Joe Rogan 53:51 Oh yeah.

Kamaru Usman 53:51 It's proven to be that right now.

Joe Rogan 53:52 Everybody watches ESPN.

Kamaru Usman 53:54 Yes.

Joe Rogan 53:55 I mean, it's on every fucking bar all over the country.

Kamaru Usman 53:57 Everywhere.

Joe Rogan 53:58 It's just too big of a network for F- like also, Fox had all sorts of other shit going on too.

Kamaru Usman 54:03 Oh yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:04 And then fighting.

Kamaru Usman 54:05 Yes.

Joe Rogan 54:05 But ESPN is all sports. Like there's no distraction. It's like you go there looking to watch some shit. Either you're watch- watching a game or you're watching a fight.

Kamaru Usman 54:14 Yeah. And, and, and that's what, you know, Dana Hess came out and said that, that was the plan. That's, that's where he wanted to get to.

Joe Rogan 54:20 I was worried about the ESPN+ shit. When they went all pay-per-views to ESPN+, I was like, "Oh no."

Kamaru Usman 54:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:26 "This could be a disaster."

Kamaru Usman 54:27 Um...

Joe Rogan 54:27 But it's not.

Kamaru Usman 54:28 Well, I mean when you, you got guys like Conor-

Joe Rogan 54:31 Yes.

Kamaru Usman 54:31 ... you know, that, that... He's an outlier. That, that doesn't really...

Joe Rogan 54:34 Right.

Kamaru Usman 54:34 You know, he can still do numbers.

Joe Rogan 54:37 But I love it 'cause I can watch it on my phone.

Kamaru Usman 54:39 Yes.

Joe Rogan 54:39 That's what I love. 'Cause sometimes I have to do some family shit or something like that and I can sneak away if there's a big fight-

Kamaru Usman 54:44 Yes.

Joe Rogan 54:44 ... and I can watch it. I just put the headphones on and watch it on my phone, you know, live.

Kamaru Usman 54:47 But it makes sense because the world, the world is shifting to that.

Joe Rogan 54:50 Yes.

Kamaru Usman 54:50 Everybody's streaming now.

Joe Rogan 54:51 Everything's streaming.

Kamaru Usman 54:52 Everything is streaming.

Joe Rogan 54:53 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 54:53 So it makes sense for them going that route. Initially, for guys like myself, it didn't make sense. But, you know, at the end of the day you just kinda have to-

Joe Rogan 55:01 You mean in terms of like-

Kamaru Usman 55:03 ... try to make friends with it.

Joe Rogan 55:03 ... the amount of money that you can make?

Kamaru Usman 55:04 Yeah, uh, uh, uh, yeah, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 55:05 Okay, was it a significant cut?

Kamaru Usman 55:07 Well, initially it's going to be because now you go from where the re- average Joe just like, "Oh, you know what? Let's watch some UFC today. I see th- I see it on my cable. All right, just order." Boom, right there, order.

Joe Rogan 55:16 Right.

Kamaru Usman 55:17 To where now you gotta get online and you gotta, you know, order, you gotta buy this, buy the subscription and all of that, to where it, it made it tough 'cause, you know, people are lazy. People don't wanna do that extra work. It's like-

Joe Rogan 55:27 Right.

Kamaru Usman 55:27 ... "Oh, I can't... Oh, fine. Screw it. I don't wanna care about it." So, of course they hit the numbers really, really hard, but I think eventually it's gonna level out.

Joe Rogan 55:35 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 55:36 And, you know, it's gonna make sense.

Joe Rogan 55:37 Yeah, I think so too. I think more people are having those smart TVs where you can just download apps.

Kamaru Usman 55:44 Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:44 And I use, uh, Apple TV, which is the shit. You could just get everything. You can get DAZN, you can get-

Kamaru Usman 55:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:49 ... anything, ESPN, UFC-

Kamaru Usman 55:51 It's too much for our brains.

Joe Rogan 55:51 ... Fight Pass. Too much?

Kamaru Usman 55:53 It's, it's too much. You've, you've got Apple TV, you've got Amazon TV.

Joe Rogan 55:56 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 55:56 You've got Hulu, you've got Netflix, you've got... It's like I have 10 different subscriptions to... And I'm paying (laughs) for cable-

Joe Rogan 56:04 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 56:05 ... to where it's like this is crazy. This is ridiculous.

Joe Rogan 56:08 It is getting crazy. Well, they're, they're trying to battle it out, right?

Kamaru Usman 56:11 Yeah, everyone's-

Joe Rogan 56:11 Disney+ and then HBO's got... What is HBO's called? HBO Max?

Kamaru Usman 56:15 HBO Max. A- a- and now they're all, like, linking up with musical guys as well.

Joe Rogan 56:20 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 56:20 Like Amazon's got Amazon Music.

Joe Rogan 56:22 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 56:22 One of them is, like, with Pandora, the other one's, like, with, uh, what is it? Spotify. Like, they're like... It's, it's a battle right now with all these guys.

Joe Rogan 56:31 Yeah, it's... It is interesting. It's, it's gonna be interesting to see how this all plays out. I was really shocked when HBO got out of boxing. I was like, "I can't believe that." From when I was a kid-

Kamaru Usman 56:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:43 ... HBO boxing was the shit.

Kamaru Usman 56:45 Was the shit, yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:45 Jim Lampley, Larry Merchant, you know what I mean? That, that's how it was back in the day. It was just... You, you always knew. George Foreman was doing commentary. Roy Jones Jr. was doing commentary.

Kamaru Usman 56:57 Yeah. I think when it's... When, when the, the change of... The figureheads change, I think that, that makes a big difference.

Joe Rogan 57:04 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 57:05 You know, the people that are calling the shots when they... You know, 'cause HBO, you see that as something that's, like, a generational type of deal. Like, like that's the big boss.

Joe Rogan 57:14 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 57:14 It's not just, you know, "Yeah, you be the boss now." I think that's something that's passed down. So when the next guy in line is not, you know, with boxing, then they, they're gonna slowly pull out.

Joe Rogan 57:24 Hmm.

Kamaru Usman 57:24 Or they're not with the sport, so I think -

Joe Rogan 57:26 It's just it was such a tradition. Boxing on HBO was such a tradition.

Kamaru Usman 57:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:30 It was so... It was a part of HBO.

Kamaru Usman 57:33 Yeah, it was. And, I mean, think... Thinking back, all those big, big fights, the Tyson era, all, all these guys.

Joe Rogan 57:39 Roy Jones Jr.

Kamaru Usman 57:39 Roy Jones Jr., and-

Joe Rogan 57:41 All of that was on HBO.

Kamaru Usman 57:42 Yeah, and so i- it's...

Joe Rogan 57:44 Max Kellerman.

Kamaru Usman 57:45 It's crazy how it's gone now.

Joe Rogan 57:47 When he came aboard. Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 57:47 You know, but-

Joe Rogan 57:48 That's weird.

Kamaru Usman 57:49 Yeah. Speaking of Tyson, you know, I spent some time with him not too long ago.

Joe Rogan 57:52 Did you get high as fuck?

Kamaru Usman 57:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:54 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 57:56 Uh... (laughs) No, I-

Joe Rogan 57:58 You don't have to say.

Kamaru Usman 57:59 You know what? I, uh-

Joe Rogan 57:59 Just go, "No."

Kamaru Usman 58:00 I did the... I did the... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:02 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 58:02 I did their podcast and they... the Hotboxin'.

Joe Rogan 58:04 Did you get hotboxed?

Kamaru Usman 58:06 I, I think I did.

Joe Rogan 58:06 In the room?

Kamaru Usman 58:07 I think... I think I caught some contact. I'm not gonna lie. They, they were all smoking-

Joe Rogan 58:10 Of course.

Kamaru Usman 58:11 ... in there and, uh, I walked out of there feeling lighter.

Joe Rogan 58:14 Oh, yeah.

Kamaru Usman 58:14 I felt so much lighter. I was just like, "What? This is-"

Joe Rogan 58:16 That felt great.

Kamaru Usman 58:17 "... I feel okay." Like, this is good.

Joe Rogan 58:18 Dude-

Kamaru Usman 58:18 It's not bad.

Joe Rogan 58:18 ... getting high with Mike Tyson and doing a podcast was one of the weirdest moments of my life.

Kamaru Usman 58:22 Really?

Joe Rogan 58:22 Yeah, man, because I idolized him as a kid. And here I am, I'm sitting across from him. Dude, when I was young and Mike Tyson was the champ, he was a fucking icon.

Kamaru Usman 58:33 Yes.

Joe Rogan 58:33 It was different.

Kamaru Usman 58:34 He's still that way.

Joe Rogan 58:34 Yeah, but it was... Back... But what I'm saying is, like, when he was the champ, it was different than any other champ. People forget the heavyweight division back there was in stagnant. It was stagnant. Nobody cared. Like Larry Holmes was a phenomenal boxer, but Larry Holmes had beaten Muhammad Ali and no one ever forgave him. He beat the fuck out of Ali and it was... when Ali was already done and everybody felt sad that now Larry Holmes was the champ and they didn't... they didn't appreciate him. And then the people that Larry Holmes fought, they were kinda lackluster. No one was really... No one stood out as being this fucking god. And then when Spinks beat him by decision, it's like the, the whole division was just stagnant.

Kamaru Usman 59:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:18 And then Tyson came along and it... What? You weren't even watching a fight. You were watching an execution and you were watching an event. Like everybody wanted to watch the ti-... And we'd get mad it would only last 30 seconds, like, "Fuck."

Kamaru Usman 59:30 Yes. A- and that's, um... Like those guys are special.

Joe Rogan 59:33 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 59:34 A- and which is, I believe, what we're witnessing with Conor. You know, there comes guys that are special-

Joe Rogan 59:40 Mm-hmm.

Kamaru Usman 59:40 ... who may not win all the time, because towards the end of Tyson's career, didn't win all the time.

Joe Rogan 59:45 Right.

Kamaru Usman 59:45 But he was still that special.

Joe Rogan 59:48 Yeah, he was an iconic person.

Kamaru Usman 59:50 And, and now being able to, to hang around him and... And I get that, that feeling that you got, Joe.

Joe Rogan 59:53 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 59:54 I, I get that feeling. Like I, I s-

Joe Rogan 59:55 I'm so nervous, man.

Kamaru Usman 59:56 You know, we... I sat next to, uh, uh, Mike. Shout out to those guys at, at the Tyson Ranch, Rob and, and all those guys. Uh, you know, every time I spend time with, with Mike, I... I'm just like...

Joe Rogan 1:00:07 It's weird. That's Mike Tyson.

Kamaru Usman 1:00:09 Mike Tyson.

Joe Rogan 1:00:09 He's right there.

Kamaru Usman 1:00:09 And, and, and we talked, and he, he gave us some... Me and Henry Asaruto, that's, that's like my brother now. We, we, we spend some time together. We spent some time with Mike and he gave us some crazy advice. You know-

Joe Rogan 1:00:20 What did he say?

Kamaru Usman 1:00:20 ... some, some, some, you know, important advice. 'Cause we, we see certain situations like now as competitors, as, as fighters, we'll be in the gym and your training partner will just beat the shit out of you one day and he will leave you feeling like, "I suck. I'm not... I'm not that good. I'm not this guy. I'm not that good anymore. I can't do it." Like, "No, I'm s- I'm sucking." 'Cause I... I'm starting to feel that more and more now, because when I, uh, when I spar for these big fights, I like to make them kind of like an event. I wanna make them feel like I'm gonna fight. So I like to just... I don't want music. I don't want this. I want it to be me and just them and not just... When you're in a room and everybody's sparring at the same time, it's a different feel. You don't really get that adrenaline feel, that really, you know, fight or flight mode. You never feel that-

Joe Rogan 1:01:08 Yeah.

Kamaru Usman 1:01:08 ... because there's so much distractions going on, so many things, so many different sounds that you're hearing. But when it's... Excuse me. When it's just you-... and them, it's a completely different ballgame. And so, I like to make it feel like that. So, I would get beat up some Saturdays. I would just get the shit (laughs) beat out of me 'cause I've got maybe three, four different guys rotating in on me that my coach has all picked. And it sucks when you're getting a new guy every round, and this guy's just beating on you the, you know... Now, my last fight, guys were taking me down, and holding me down, and just beating on me. And I would go home thinking, "Man, I s- I suck. Like, I'm not good anymore. Like, this, this sucks. H- how do I deal with this? Like, I'm gonna lose this fight. This, this sucks." But somehow, someway, uh, you turn, you always turn the corner.

Joe Rogan 1:01:54 When do you feel like the corner gets turned? Do you have like a sk- You know, I know you're, you're big on routine, but do you have it in your head that like somewhere around like six weeks in, things start to turn? Is it-

Kamaru Usman 1:02:04 Three, two and a half, three weeks out.

Joe Rogan 1:02:06 Three weeks out from the fight?

Kamaru Usman 1:02:06 Of the fight. Three weeks out from the fight, I'm just like-

Joe Rogan 1:02:08 So how many weeks into training are you? When you th- Uh, like, what's a s- partic-

Kamaru Usman 1:02:12 I'm, I'm-

Joe Rogan 1:02:12 ... sp- spec-

Kamaru Usman 1:02:12 ... always training, but-

Joe Rogan 1:02:13 Uh-huh.

Kamaru Usman 1:02:13 ... I, I like to do, like, maybe, I wanna say, uh, 11, 10, 11-week camp.

Joe Rogan 1:02:18 So, for eight weeks-

Kamaru Usman 1:02:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:20 ... shit might be going bad.

Kamaru Usman 1:02:22 Yeah. So you'll have, like, about eight weeks out, I'm feeling good. Like, you know, I'm still feeling good. I'm still kinda beating these guys up. I'm still kinda doing what I want. Then six weeks, your body's starting to like, "Oh, man, bro, we've been training for a while, I'm kinda tired." So it's even now. And then you're five, four weeks out, and now you're just getting beat up. Like, these guys are just beating on you. Your body's tired. Your body's like, "I'm done. I'm done training. I'm done training. Like, you know, I don't wanna do this anymore." And you're getting beat on. And mentally, you're thinking, "D- bro, I'm gonna lose this fight. I suck. I'm not good."

Joe Rogan 1:02:55 Hmm.

Kamaru Usman 1:02:56 "I suck." And then, you, I mean, you're mad, "I suck bad." I'm cursing (laughs) myself in the car.

Joe Rogan 1:03:02 (laughs)

Kamaru Usman 1:03:03 "Bro, that was trash." And I'm, of course I'm watching the videos, recording. "How'd you get hit with that? You got taken... Bro, th- you're trash. You, you're bad. You're gonna lose. You're