JRE MMA Show #87 with Kamaru Usman

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Three, two, one... Champ!…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      Three, two, one... Champ! What's up? How are ya?

   2. KUKamaru Usman0:06

      What's up, Joe? How are you?

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:07

      How're you feeling, man?

   4. KUKamaru Usman0:07

      I'm, I'm, I'm good. I'm good. Life is good.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:10

      Life is good.

   6. KUKamaru Usman0:10

      (laughs) It's good. Stressful, but it's good.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      Well, I mean, it has to be stressful. You're the king of the hill.

   8. KUKamaru Usman0:15

      Yes, yes.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Yeah.

   10. KUKamaru Usman0:17

       And it, that's, uh, there's a lot of things they don't tell you-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:19

       Dude, I remember-

   12. KUKamaru Usman0:20

       ... you know, on the way up there.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:20

       ... Matt Hughes, when he lost to BJ Penn, I was interviewing him in the octagon, he said something, like, really honest and very shocking. He said, "Honestly," he goes, "it's a relief." He goes, like, "Being the champ, and the stress of it all," he goes, "I'm re- I'm, I feel relieved to have been lost." Like, first of all, to, to lose, it's very, like... The fact that he had the balls to say that, like, just admit it, like, "Hey, it's a relief." Like, you know, "He just choked me out, but I'm happy. I'm happy it happened."

   14. KUKamaru Usman0:46

       It, it, it is. For, for guys like that, that, uh, that have reached that status, it is. The Anderson Silva, the-

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:51

       Yeah.

   16. KUKamaru Usman0:51

       ... the Georges St-Pierre, those guys, it, it is a relief. Because, you know, and I'm just, I'm starting to see a little bit why. Because as soon as I walk out of there, defending your title, as soon as you just beat this kid up, fans can't wait to say, "Oh, no, this is the guy that's gonna beat you."

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:10

       Right.

   18. KUKamaru Usman1:11

       "That's the guy that's gonna beat you."

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:12

       Yeah.

   20. KUKamaru Usman1:12

       So there's, there's really no come down, you know, "Let me take a vacation, let me do this." No, because fans are on it. They want a guy to step in there with you tomorrow to beat you.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:21

       That's always gonna happen, though, isn't it?

   22. KUKamaru Usman1:22

       It's, yeah, you know, but-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:23

       With everybody, anybody who's a champ.

   24. KUKamaru Usman1:25

       Yeah, but that, that's... Now, imagine doing that five, six, seven times, over and over-

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:30

       Yeah. For decades, yeah.

   26. KUKamaru Usman1:30

       ... and like these guys, Georges St-Pierre, for decades have done.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:33

       Yeah.

   28. KUKamaru Usman1:33

       Over... It, it just gets overwhelming, because it's like nothing's ever good enough for you guys, you know?

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:38

       Yeah.

   30. KUKamaru Usman1:38

       I, I can't go out there, put on a flawless performance, win, and just have you guys say, "You know what? He's the best." No, it's like, "You were good, but yeah, this guy's gonna beat you. This guy, this guy's good enough to beat you."
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   (laughs) …

   1. KUKamaru Usman15:00

      I gonna do now?" You know, so now everything's going through my head. I got this guy that's been talking shit (laughs) for-

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:06

      (laughs)

   3. KUKamaru Usman15:06

      ... for years and- and everybody in the world is telling me, "You have to kill this guy. You can't be the... you can't lose to him." So h- now I'm going through all this in my mind, "No, I can't be that guy. I can't lose to that guy. I can't lose to that guy." And then it's like... then I'm like, "Okay, no, it feels a little better. I'm go... I'm gonna spar hard." So I start sparring, boom, right away heard it again and I- I... a couple times I almost cried.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:28

      And you're getting it taped up hard too, so-

   5. KUKamaru Usman15:30

      I'm- I'm getting it taped up and everything-

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:32

      Even so, it's still-

   7. KUKamaru Usman15:33

      ... but even so, it- it's still hurting. But then it gets to a point where I'm just like, "Shit, gotta block it out." You know, fight's a fight, gotta block it out. So I'm in the dressing room, I'm training, everything's okay, I- I block it out, not even thinking about it and thinking about going to work. Then I get in there, first round, I don't even remember. I just remember throwing it, boom, something's wrong. "Oh." And then I'm just like, "Okay, play it off, play it off." And then props to Colby, like, you know, he comes on and- and he's, you know... he's doing his job. He's fighting me, he's in there landing strikes and I'm like, (clicks tongue) "Okay." You know? But at- at some point I never thought, "I'm gonna lose this fight." 'Cause I never think like that. It's like, "Oh, I'm not gonna lose this fight." Even if something's not going my way, I just, I'm gonna adapt, I'm gonna find a way to win.

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:16

      W- wasn't it like on the, like... the scorecards at the end of the fight were very close.

   9. KUKamaru Usman16:23

      Yeah. I- I s- I knew it was close.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:26

       Yeah.

   11. KUKamaru Usman16:26

       I- I would, uh... 'cause it... for the first time ever, I asked my coaches, "Did I win that round?"

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:33

       Hmm.

   13. KUKamaru Usman16:33

       I've never in my career done that. I'm the type of guy, even when I was wrestling, I'm the re- type of wrestler who, I like to run up the scoreboard. I don't like to live- leave any doubt that I won that round. I'm gonna dominate that round. I'm gonna make sure I won. So in my head, I know I won. I don't need to ask.

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:49

       Hmm.

   15. KUKamaru Usman16:49

       For the first time in my career, I went back, I'm like, "Did I win that round? Did I win that round?" And, but I... even by me asking that, I never thought, "Oh, I'm not gonna finish this fight." I always knew I was gonna finish the fight, but I just was like, I was, "D- did I win that? Did I win that?" You know, I don't know why, I don't know how or what- what was going on in my head, but for some reason I asked. I was asking. So I knew the fight was close.

   16. JRJoe Rogan17:13

       It was a good fucking fight, man. It was a good fight. The thing about Colby is he tricks you into thinking he sucks. 'Cause he's got a goofy suit on and he- he talks crazy and, you know, he wears the MAGA hat and all that stuff, but- but then if you didn't see any of that-

   17. KUKamaru Usman17:30

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:30

       ... if you just watched him fight, you'd be like, "That motherfucker puts a pace on people."

   19. KUKamaru Usman17:33

       Yeah. A lot of people knew that.

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:33

       What he did to Robbie Lawler, I was like, "Good Lord." Like nobody does that to Robbie Lawler, like he put a fucking pace on him. It just stayed on him. Like guys have wrestled him before, Robbie, you know, like got a hold of him, dragged him down, tried to make it a, you know, a st- you know, try to-

   21. KUKamaru Usman17:48

       Yeah. Oh, yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:48

       ... stall him out. That's not what Colby did. Colby just stuck on him like glue and just put that pace on him.

   23. KUKamaru Usman17:54

       Yeah. I mean, he really, he really... that w- he really showed, you know, like how good he is. And I mean, I'm, I- I give respect where respect is due. I'm no- I'm no hater, you know. I know this kid could fight. I knew he was good, I knew he was tough and I knew he was a competitor as well. He's always been a competitor. I knew guys that were on wrestling teams with this guy.... you know, besides Jon Jones. I knew-

   24. JRJoe Rogan18:13

       Right.

   25. KUKamaru Usman18:13

       ... other guys, you know, that I'm f- good friends with that wrestled with him. So, I've always known that he was a competitor, that he was gonna come out and try to compete. You know, but I, like I said, I- I just mentally, I think I'm just on a different level than these guys just because everything that I've been through, that I've done in my life, has shaped me into the man that I am. So mentally, I'm- I'm just on a different level than him.

   26. JRJoe Rogan18:35

       Well, you have to have that attitude, right?

   27. KUKamaru Usman18:37

       Yeah. A- and- and I ju- I s- I just, I felt it. I knew it and I felt it even... And now it's so, more so than ever because now you've got all the fans by, you know, on- on what he's got his fans, you've got... E- everyone has fans that are gonna talk shit (laughs) to you.

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:55

       Yeah. Well, this was-

   29. KUKamaru Usman18:55

       And they make it worse.

   30. JRJoe Rogan18:56

       ... the first time that you had a close fight-
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Oh yeah, oh yeah.…

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      So you got a guy who's arguably one of the best strikers to ever do it in the welterweight division. I mean, Wonderboy's a fantastic kickboxer.

   2. KUKamaru Usman30:06

      Oh yeah, oh yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:06

      Tyron smashed him.

   4. KUKamaru Usman30:08

      Speaking of that, you saw what Wonderboy did to Masvidal.

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:11

      Yeah. He out-pointed him.

   6. KUKamaru Usman30:13

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:14

      Yeah. Good fight.

   8. KUKamaru Usman30:15

      I mean, he dropped him like several times.

   9. JRJoe Rogan30:16

      Did he drop him?

   10. KUKamaru Usman30:17

       Yeah, a couple times.

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:18

       Well, Darren dropped him too.

   12. KUKamaru Usman30:19

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:19

       Darren Till dropped, uh, Masvidal too, but-

   14. KUKamaru Usman30:21

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan30:21

       ... Masvidal starched him.

   16. KUKamaru Usman30:23

       And, and you know, I give credit where credit is due, you know. But, um, like, like I'm saying back to that, like yeah, everyone be... I was, I was almost like... And you saw with like, at some... I'm sure Woodley was a little afraid in that fight.... because it's like-

   17. JRJoe Rogan30:36

       Do you think so?

   18. KUKamaru Usman30:36

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan30:36

       I don't think so.

   20. KUKamaru Usman30:37

       Yeah. It, you, you have to be. You have to be.

   21. JRJoe Rogan30:39

       I think he also-

   22. KUKamaru Usman30:39

       With all the hype they were putting behind him, you have to be. 'Cause at some point, as a cham-... And that's what makes you sane as a champion, is, is that little fear. It's like, "Wow, they're really saying, 'Is this kid really good enough?' He's the favorite? Is he good enough? Can he beat me?"

   23. JRJoe Rogan30:52

       I thought that was so crazy.

   24. KUKamaru Usman30:54

       Can he... Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan30:54

       There's, sometimes there's odds, and I'm like, "This is just, this doesn't make any sense at all to me."

   26. KUKamaru Usman30:59

       I agree.

   27. JRJoe Rogan31:00

       You know, there's certain odds where I'm like, "You guys are like..." Who's making these odds?

   28. KUKamaru Usman31:04

       Yeah. I- I'm... Beats me. Especially these rankings, too. I'm like, they- they've got this kid at, at number three. He hasn't fought, number four, he hasn't fought number one, number two, he hasn't fought number five, he hasn't fought number six. I'm like, "How in the hell is he at number three?"

   29. JRJoe Rogan31:17

       Masvidal's number three?

   30. KUKamaru Usman31:18

       Number three.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   That's weird, right? You…

   1. KUKamaru Usman45:00

      difficult to be able to pick guys. And on top of it, then you get to the UFC where it's like, this is a fight, yes or no? Which I- I have gotten a call, "Hey, you're gonna go to Brazil and you're gonna fight this guy. If you say no, all right, we're gonna extend your contract. If you say yes, all right, see you there."

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:16

      That's weird, right? You can't- you can't negotiate like you can with a normal promoter.

   3. KUKamaru Usman45:20

      No. No.

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:21

      That's very... (laughs)

   5. KUKamaru Usman45:22

      No.

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:23

      So we were talking about your strength and conditioning because of your knees, and we kinda got sidetracked. Like, what kinda stuff does he have you doing to replace running, and like- like-

   7. KUKamaru Usman45:32

      Oh, to replace running, like I- I- I work in the pool a lot.

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:35

      Hmm.

   9. KUKamaru Usman45:35

      By myself. I- I- I run a lot in the pool. And, you know, I swim too. I'm not the best swimmer in the world, but you know, I get in there and I- I- I get after it and I get tired.

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:46

       You know those things-

   11. KUKamaru Usman45:47

       You know, I really get to work.

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:47

       ... that GSP uses, where he has like these things-

   13. KUKamaru Usman45:48

       Yeah, I've seen them. I've seen them

   14. NANarrator45:49

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan45:49

       ... like, he puts on his hands and on his feet? No, the- you like go-

   16. KUKamaru Usman45:52

       I play with those, yeah. I play with those.

   17. JRJoe Rogan45:53

       What are those things? What are those things called?

   18. KUKamaru Usman45:54

       Uh, um, they're- they're kinda, they create the resistance in the- in the water.

   19. JRJoe Rogan45:58

       Right.

   20. KUKamaru Usman45:58

       You know, so i- it kinda gives you the resistance pulling, pushing and- and, you know, throwing punches with him. It- it just gives you that extra work that you need.

   21. JRJoe Rogan46:05

       George loves that shit.

   22. KUKamaru Usman46:06

       Yeah, yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan46:06

       He loves it. It's like his main, uh, training.

   24. KUKamaru Usman46:09

       And I love George.

   25. JRJoe Rogan46:09

       Like strength and conditioning. (laughs)

   26. KUKamaru Usman46:12

       (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan46:12

       You want that fight?

   28. KUKamaru Usman46:13

       Absolutely.

   29. JRJoe Rogan46:13

       If I could give you a magic wand. If I could give you a magic wand, say, Kamaru, you can pick, ping. Who- who are you pointing that magic wand at?

   30. KUKamaru Usman46:20

       GSP, all day.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:03:26

   It's weird. That's Mike…

   1. KUKamaru Usman1:00:00

      Rob and, and all those guys. Uh, you know, every time I spend time with, with Mike, I... I'm just like...

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:07

      It's weird. That's Mike Tyson.

   3. KUKamaru Usman1:00:09

      Mike Tyson.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:09

      He's right there.

   5. KUKamaru Usman1:00:09

      And, and, and we talked, and he, he gave us some... Me and Henry Asaruto, that's, that's like my brother now. We, we, we spend some time together. We spent some time with Mike and he gave us some crazy advice. You know-

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:20

      What did he say?

   7. KUKamaru Usman1:00:20

      ... some, some, some, you know, important advice. 'Cause we, we see certain situations like now as competitors, as, as fighters, we'll be in the gym and your training partner will just beat the shit out of you one day and he will leave you feeling like, "I suck. I'm not... I'm not that good. I'm not this guy. I'm not that good anymore. I can't do it." Like, "No, I'm s- I'm sucking." 'Cause I... I'm starting to feel that more and more now, because when I, uh, when I spar for these big fights, I like to make them kind of like an event. I wanna make them feel like I'm gonna fight. So I like to just... I don't want music. I don't want this. I want it to be me and just them and not just... When you're in a room and everybody's sparring at the same time, it's a different feel. You don't really get that adrenaline feel, that really, you know, fight or flight mode. You never feel that-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:01:08

      Yeah.

   9. KUKamaru Usman1:01:08

      ... because there's so much distractions going on, so many things, so many different sounds that you're hearing. But when it's... Excuse me. When it's just you-... and them, it's a completely different ballgame. And so, I like to make it feel like that. So, I would get beat up some Saturdays. I would just get the shit (laughs) beat out of me 'cause I've got maybe three, four different guys rotating in on me that my coach has all picked. And it sucks when you're getting a new guy every round, and this guy's just beating on you the, you know... Now, my last fight, guys were taking me down, and holding me down, and just beating on me. And I would go home thinking, "Man, I s- I suck. Like, I'm not good anymore. Like, this, this sucks. H- how do I deal with this? Like, I'm gonna lose this fight. This, this sucks." But somehow, someway, uh, you turn, you always turn the corner.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:54

       When do you feel like the corner gets turned? Do you have like a sk- You know, I know you're, you're big on routine, but do you have it in your head that like somewhere around like six weeks in, things start to turn? Is it-

   11. KUKamaru Usman1:02:04

       Three, two and a half, three weeks out.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:02:06

       Three weeks out from the fight?

   13. KUKamaru Usman1:02:06

       Of the fight. Three weeks out from the fight, I'm just like-

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:02:08

       So how many weeks into training are you? When you th- Uh, like, what's a s- partic-

   15. KUKamaru Usman1:02:12

       I'm, I'm-

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:02:12

       ... sp- spec-

   17. KUKamaru Usman1:02:12

       ... always training, but-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:02:13

       Uh-huh.

   19. KUKamaru Usman1:02:13

       ... I, I like to do, like, maybe, I wanna say, uh, 11, 10, 11-week camp.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:02:18

       So, for eight weeks-

   21. KUKamaru Usman1:02:20

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:02:20

       ... shit might be going bad.

   23. KUKamaru Usman1:02:22

       Yeah. So you'll have, like, about eight weeks out, I'm feeling good. Like, you know, I'm still feeling good. I'm still kinda beating these guys up. I'm still kinda doing what I want. Then six weeks, your body's starting to like, "Oh, man, bro, we've been training for a while, I'm kinda tired." So it's even now. And then you're five, four weeks out, and now you're just getting beat up. Like, these guys are just beating on you. Your body's tired. Your body's like, "I'm done. I'm done training. I'm done training. Like, you know, I don't wanna do this anymore." And you're getting beat on. And mentally, you're thinking, "D- bro, I'm gonna lose this fight. I suck. I'm not good."

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:02:55

       Hmm.

   25. KUKamaru Usman1:02:56

       "I suck." And then, you, I mean, you're mad, "I suck bad." I'm cursing (laughs) myself in the car.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:03:02

       (laughs)

   27. KUKamaru Usman1:03:03

       "Bro, that was trash." And I'm, of course I'm watching the videos, recording. "How'd you get hit with that? You got taken... Bro, th- you're trash. You, you're bad. You're gonna lose. You're gonna get knocked out in front of thousands of people, bro." And then, it's like, after about three weeks out, you start to kinda turn the corner 'cause you're getting closer and closer to the fight. And now my mind's like, "Oh, bro, we're getting close to this fight. We're about to fuck this dude up." (laughs)

Episode duration: 3:03:01