JRE MMA Show #87 with Kamaru Usman

1. 0:00 – 2:16

   Champion pressure: defending the belt and nonstop challengers

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      Three, two, one... Champ! What's up? How are ya?

   2. KUKamaru Usman0:06

      What's up, Joe? How are you?

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:07

      How're you feeling, man?

   4. KUKamaru Usman0:07

      I'm, I'm, I'm good. I'm good. Life is good.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:10

      Life is good.

   6. KUKamaru Usman0:10

      (laughs) It's good. Stressful, but it's good.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      Well, I mean, it has to be stressful. You're the king of the hill.

   8. KUKamaru Usman0:15

      Yes, yes.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Yeah.

   10. KUKamaru Usman0:17

       And it, that's, uh, there's a lot of things they don't tell you-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:19

       Dude, I remember-

   12. KUKamaru Usman0:20

       ... you know, on the way up there.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:20

       ... Matt Hughes, when he lost to BJ Penn, I was interviewing him in the octagon, he said something, like, really honest and very shocking. He said, "Honestly," he goes, "it's a relief." He goes, like, "Being the champ, and the stress of it all," he goes, "I'm re- I'm, I feel relieved to have been lost." Like, first of all, to, to lose, it's very, like... The fact that he had the balls to say that, like, just admit it, like, "Hey, it's a relief." Like, you know, "He just choked me out, but I'm happy. I'm happy it happened."

   14. KUKamaru Usman0:46

       It, it, it is. For, for guys like that, that, uh, that have reached that status, it is. The Anderson Silva, the-

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:51

       Yeah.

   16. KUKamaru Usman0:51

       ... the Georges St-Pierre, those guys, it, it is a relief. Because, you know, and I'm just, I'm starting to see a little bit why. Because as soon as I walk out of there, defending your title, as soon as you just beat this kid up, fans can't wait to say, "Oh, no, this is the guy that's gonna beat you."

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:10

       Right.

   18. KUKamaru Usman1:11

       "That's the guy that's gonna beat you."

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:12

       Yeah.

   20. KUKamaru Usman1:12

       So there's, there's really no come down, you know, "Let me take a vacation, let me do this." No, because fans are on it. They want a guy to step in there with you tomorrow to beat you.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:21

       That's always gonna happen, though, isn't it?

   22. KUKamaru Usman1:22

       It's, yeah, you know, but-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:23

       With everybody, anybody who's a champ.

   24. KUKamaru Usman1:25

       Yeah, but that, that's... Now, imagine doing that five, six, seven times, over and over-

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:30

       Yeah. For decades, yeah.

   26. KUKamaru Usman1:30

       ... and like these guys, Georges St-Pierre, for decades have done.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:33

       Yeah.

   28. KUKamaru Usman1:33

       Over... It, it just gets overwhelming, because it's like nothing's ever good enough for you guys, you know?

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:38

       Yeah.

   30. KUKamaru Usman1:38

       I, I can't go out there, put on a flawless performance, win, and just have you guys say, "You know what? He's the best." No, it's like, "You were good, but yeah, this guy's gonna beat you. This guy, this guy's good enough to beat you."
2. 2:16 – 3:04

   Making friends with nerves: Rashad Evans’ mental advice

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:16

      Keep winning.

   2. KUKamaru Usman2:16

      ... it's one of the advice that Rashad gave me early on, is, uh, make friends with this.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:22

      Mm-hmm.

   4. KUKamaru Usman2:22

      Make friends with, with, uh, 'cause I, you know, you get worked up before a fight, you know, you-

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:27

      Mm-hmm.

   6. KUKamaru Usman2:27

      So he's like, "No, make friends with that feeling, because that, that's a good feeling." You know, or you're backstage before your fight and you're super nervous. You wanna take a shit. You, you know, you, you wanna pee. You pee, like, 50 times. You're barely drinking water, but somehow there's some kinda pee coming out.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:41

      (laughs)

   8. KUKamaru Usman2:42

      (laughs) And, and he's like, "No, make friends with that feeling." You know? The moment you accept that feeling, it's not that big of a burden anymore.

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:49

      Rashad's a wise man.

   10. KUKamaru Usman2:50

       You know? A super wise man.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:51

       That's a very, that's a very wise piece of advice, 'cause i- you can really change your perception based on how you approach something, and just deciding-

   12. KUKamaru Usman3:00

       Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan3:00

       ... "This is all right, this is a part of the process, this is what's up, this is how it works."

3. 3:04 – 5:03

   Routine vs. OCD: controlling rituals and staying adaptable

   1. KUKamaru Usman3:04

      It's, it's big for me right now.

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:05

      Yeah?

   3. KUKamaru Usman3:05

      It's very, very big for me, because I, uh, I'm a creature of a, of a routine. I love having a routine. And, and it's a fine line between routine and obsessive compulsive.

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:17

      Mm-hmm.

   5. KUKamaru Usman3:17

      It, it's a very, very fine line.

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:19

      Yeah.

   7. KUKamaru Usman3:19

      Because... And it started on for me early on. When I, when I started to succeed in wrestling, I was, uh, "Okay, this is my routine. Okay, I'm, I'm looking at the... Okay, I'm 10 matches out, so that means I need to get up and I need to warm up." My warmup was the same. "Okay, I'm gonna jog back and forth twice before I, I skip back and forth twice, before I, I, I do my lunges back and forth twice, before I do my stance and motion back and forth twice." Like, it was, it was that routine. I had to do it at that time. Uh, "No, I'm going to the restroom, I need to pee before I, I, I go for this match, but I'm gonna go into the same bathroom, I'm gonna go into the same stall."

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:54

      Mm-hmm.

   9. KUKamaru Usman3:55

      "You know, I, I'm gonna pee and I'm gonna come out. I'm gonna use the same sink to wash my hand, get one or two paper towels, throw it away, go back out." Like, it, it got to a point where it's like, "That's my routine." And then I go out there and I perform and I win, I'm like, "Yeah, that, that's why, that's why I, I'm performing this."

   10. JRJoe Rogan4:12

       So it's like OCD.

   11. KUKamaru Usman4:13

       It, it, it b- it become... There's a fine line. So I had to realize that that's a fine line, because it's not necessarily OCD. Because when you, when it becomes obsessive compulsive is when, for me, is when you feel like you can't succeed unless you do those things.

   12. JRJoe Rogan4:27

       Right.

   13. KUKamaru Usman4:28

       So it's like, "Dang, I, I forgot to do that. Well, oh, I'm gonna lose, I'm gonna lose." No, it, it's... I had to learn how to control it early, because it's like my, that's my routine. But even if I, I didn't do that, I didn't have enough time to do that, because sometimes you don't have enough time to do it.

   14. JRJoe Rogan4:41

       Right.

   15. KUKamaru Usman4:41

       They, you know, something goes out of whack, matches end early but, and you don't have enough time to, to get your routine in. So it's like had to be able to adjust my mind, "Okay, we still go out there and perform. We still go out there..." Especially in the fight game.

   16. JRJoe Rogan4:52

       Mm-hmm.

   17. KUKamaru Usman4:52

       You know, you go out there, quick, two quick knockouts, boom, boom, boom, you thinking you've got 30 minutes to warm up and stuff. They're like, "No, you got to come in back, 'You got 10 minutes!'" And it's like, "Oh, sh- I got 10 minutes. I, I can't get my whole routine in."

4. 5:03 – 7:37

   Fight week realities: hard workout on fight day and big weight cuts

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:03

      How much time do you need? Like, say if you're in the locker room and you, you, like, before you walk out for the fight, how much time do you need to get everything loosened up?

   2. KUKamaru Usman5:14

      (sighs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:14

      What do you like?

   4. KUKamaru Usman5:14

      I mean, I'm older now (laughs) . My joints make noises now, so. Um, not too crazy, because I, I work out that morning before the fight. I work, that's when I really get the hard workout in.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:26

      You have a hard workout the day-

   6. KUKamaru Usman5:28

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:28

      ... of the fight?

   8. KUKamaru Usman5:28

      The, uh, the day of the fight, I work out in that morning.

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:30

      Holy shit.

   10. KUKamaru Usman5:31

       Uh, all my coaches, you know, my training partners, everybody, we go in and we get a good, a good sweat. I like to blow it all out. Because the night before I don't, 'cause that's, that's the day of weigh-ins.

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:40

       Mm-hmm.

   12. KUKamaru Usman5:40

       So you just cut... That Thursday night, you cut a lot of it, you cut the weight, dehydrated, you weigh in that morning, uh, that Friday morning. So that Friday is dedicated to just rehydrating and eating.

   13. JRJoe Rogan5:52

       How much do you cut?

   14. KUKamaru Usman5:53

       (Sighs) (smacks lips) I don't get that... That, that last fight was, uh, probably one of the biggest I stayed throughout, and I think I was up to about maybe 197.And... But when I start really full-fledged going two days in camp, I try to keep my weight around 192, 191 because that's where I feel strong, you know, but not my fastest. But I'm close.

   15. JRJoe Rogan6:16

       'Cause I've seen you walk around in between fights. I'm like, "How the fuck does that guy-

   16. KUKamaru Usman6:21

       I, I, I'm, I'm just-

   17. JRJoe Rogan6:21

       ... make 170?"

   18. KUKamaru Usman6:21

       It's, it's, it's fake. It's just, uh, you know... (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan6:24

       It's fake? (laughs) What are you talking about?

   20. KUKamaru Usman6:25

       It's, it's, they're air muscles and I, I-

   21. JRJoe Rogan6:26

       Bullshit.

   22. KUKamaru Usman6:27

       ... I, I, I do a couple of, uh-

   23. JRJoe Rogan6:29

       No, bro, I've hugged you, man.

   24. KUKamaru Usman6:30

       You know, I just have those-

   25. JRJoe Rogan6:30

       There is no air in those muscles.

   26. KUKamaru Usman6:32

       ... re- I've got, I've got, uh, a back and I, I, you know, I, um, I do a couple of, you know, freaking curls and my arms just swell up. Just (exhales sharply) just swell up. But-

   27. JRJoe Rogan6:42

       But 197, if you're getting up to 197 and you're cutting 27 pounds-

   28. KUKamaru Usman6:46

       (clicks tongue) Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:46

       ... how much does that take, uh, out of you?

   30. KUKamaru Usman6:49

       (sighs) Well, I, like I said, I'm a creature of, of a routine and, and, and I like to get into that routine so I, I'm dieting well, eating well. So by... When I'm down to, uh, about 3%, I think it's ob- so- probably some of the leanest I've been, about 3%, yeah.
5. 7:37 – 12:49

   Training team and knee management: microfracture surgery, stem cells, and low-impact conditioning

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:37

      (sniffs)

   2. KUKamaru Usman7:37

      ... you know, I have an amazing team behind me. You know, amazing strength and conditioning coach, amazing, you know, nutritionist. I, I work with Clint up at the PI now.

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:46

      Mm-hmm.

   4. KUKamaru Usman7:46

      And, and, and-

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:46

      Is he the one who hooks, hooks up the weight cutting and all that?

   6. KUKamaru Usman7:49

      Me... Well, yeah, they, they help with it, you know, because, uh, he lives in Vegas and I'm in South Florida. So me, me and Clint, we stay in contact, you know, and, uh... And one thing that I liked about Clint is the fact that he gave me the time to say, "Hey, you know, let's, let's really test your body. Look at all this and that. You know, you're the kind of athlete you carry a lot of muscle and, and, you know, there's that stigma that if you have a lot of muscle, you run outta gas really, really fast. But the way you work, we gotta make sure that you're eating the right way to make sure you sustain that."

   7. JRJoe Rogan8:18

      Hmm.

   8. KUKamaru Usman8:18

      And, of course, my strength and conditioning coach, Dr. Corey Peacock, I mean, PhD in, uh, you know, the, um, associate professor over at, uh, Nova University, you know, in exercise physiology. I mean, smart, brilliant guy. You know, I've been working with him since my first fight in the UFC.

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:35

      And you have particular needs because you've got problems with your knees.

   10. KUKamaru Usman8:39

       Yes.

   11. JRJoe Rogan8:39

       So you can't run-

   12. KUKamaru Usman8:40

       Exactly.

   13. JRJoe Rogan8:41

       ... like, like-

   14. KUKamaru Usman8:41

       And that's why I started-

   15. JRJoe Rogan8:42

       ... which is kind of crazy.

   16. KUKamaru Usman8:42

       ... working with him.

   17. JRJoe Rogan8:43

       Oh.

   18. KUKamaru Usman8:43

       It is, it is... Before that, I was working with Jake Bonacini, and Jake, uh, amazing. You know, Jake was at Xtreme Couture for a long, long time and Jake knew what he was doing. But Jake, you know, the thing with Jake was Jake was a mastermind with the, you know, if you're an athlete, you got... your, all your body parts work so, "Well, this is what we need to do to get you tip-top sta- shape." And then when Corey came in was after I had that injury, 'cause I had a microfracture surgery and then I had to fight the finale like three and a half months after that.

   19. JRJoe Rogan9:14

       So microfracture surgery is that shit they do to try to rebuild cartilage in your knees?

   20. KUKamaru Usman9:17

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan9:17

       Is that what it is?

   22. KUKamaru Usman9:18

       Which, which was... Yeah. That... Now, now some doctors are like, "Oh, yeah, that's from the Stone Age. You don't do that anymore."

   23. JRJoe Rogan9:23

       Really?

   24. KUKamaru Usman9:24

       But it's... they go... it's... when, when they go in and I guess they create f- tiny little fracture-

   25. JRJoe Rogan9:29

       Right.

   26. KUKamaru Usman9:29

       ... in whether it's the... you know, for mine it was the knee, so either it's the femoral condyle or the, uh, um, (clicks tongue) um... I forget what the bone's called, but they try to-

   27. JRJoe Rogan9:37

       Tibia?

   28. KUKamaru Usman9:38

       Tibia. You know, they try to, uh-

   29. JRJoe Rogan9:39

       Yeah.

   30. KUKamaru Usman9:40

       ... I guess let it bleed in and, and create, you know, the cartilage, you know, and, um-
6. 12:49 – 16:16

   Injured hand before Covington: grip strength, cast anxiety, and sparring panic

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:49

      How's- how's your hand? Your left hand?

   2. KUKamaru Usman12:51

      So, that's the thing, I- I free- I went and... I know the doctor's gonna hate me for this. (laughs) So, I- I had a cast on, so then I go to Vegas and, um, (smacks lips) and I talk to the doctors, uh, you know, the UFC doc and those guys in Vegas, and you know, it's not broken, you know, it's just, uh, an issue with the ligaments. You can see, see in this right hand, right here at the bottom of the thumb, you can clearly see the ligaments.

   3. JRJoe Rogan13:13

      Mm-hmm.

   4. KUKamaru Usman13:13

      You know, all working there. But then here, there's that bump in between, so they don't come out as much. And that's causing me... I don't have s- I didn't have, I don't have the strength like, you know, being able to pull. And this is a big part of my game is if I get around you, I get a body lock, I don't care what you're doing, you're just not getting me off.

   5. JRJoe Rogan13:31

      Right.

   6. KUKamaru Usman13:31

      That- that... I just, I've spent years just working on that grip to where you just not... uh, you're not letting me off until I let off.

   7. JRJoe Rogan13:38

      Right.

   8. KUKamaru Usman13:38

      And so now, not being able to do that, but it's- it's healing fast, and uh, I was in Vegas and (laughs) the doctor's like, "We can just cut the cast off and make you a hard, removable one that I can take off on and off so I can shower." Because that was the thing, you're stuck in this cast for four weeks, you can't really shower with it, you gotta shower with your arm up in the air.

   9. JRJoe Rogan13:59

      Oh, and your hand stays-

   10. KUKamaru Usman14:00

       And the hand stays.

   11. JRJoe Rogan14:00

       ... so bad when it gets out. (laughs)

   12. KUKamaru Usman14:01

       And then when it itches and you- I gotta stick stuff in there.

   13. JRJoe Rogan14:04

       Yeah, yeah.

   14. KUKamaru Usman14:04

       And- and psychologically, I started getting a little anxiety with it too, 'cause it's like, "Can't get this thing off my hand, I need this thing off." (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan14:12

       (laughs)

   16. KUKamaru Usman14:12

       So sometimes I'm just laying there, I'm just like, "I want it off my hand and I can't get it off." But-

   17. JRJoe Rogan14:16

       So is it a ligament tear? Is that what it is?

   18. KUKamaru Usman14:18

       Um, it's not a tear. They- they, um, they thought it was a- a tear at the bottom, but it... you know, strength is coming back, you know, slowly, so-

   19. JRJoe Rogan14:25

       So it's a sprain? Maybe a sprain or something?

   20. KUKamaru Usman14:26

       Yeah, it was like a really bad strain and that- that, uh, bump is still there for some reason. So we're- we're working on it, I'm doing everything, ultrasound, MRI-

   21. JRJoe Rogan14:32

       But no fracture?

   22. KUKamaru Usman14:33

       And no fracture, which is good news, so I don't have to be out for too long.

   23. JRJoe Rogan14:36

       Yeah, 'cause you sent me the tape of like when you hurt it in training.

   24. KUKamaru Usman14:40

       Oh, yeah. Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan14:40

       You could see it like... so it was one of those things where you- you hit with the thumb instead of the knuckle?

   26. KUKamaru Usman14:43

       I- I hit- I hit it with the th... 'cause, you know, when you got those big gloves on-

   27. JRJoe Rogan14:46

       Mm-hmm.

   28. KUKamaru Usman14:46

       ... you know, you- you can't really make a full fist.

   29. JRJoe Rogan14:49

       Right.

   30. KUKamaru Usman14:49

       You know? So, especially when you have wraps. So your hand's kind of in there like this, so you throw a punch the wrong way or somebody comes into you the wrong way, it's like boom, you heard it.
7. 16:16 – 19:57

   Breaking down Usman vs. Covington: pacing, scorecards, and finishing sequence

   1. JRJoe Rogan16:16

      W- wasn't it like on the, like... the scorecards at the end of the fight were very close.

   2. KUKamaru Usman16:23

      Yeah. I- I s- I knew it was close.

   3. JRJoe Rogan16:26

      Yeah.

   4. KUKamaru Usman16:26

      I- I would, uh... 'cause it... for the first time ever, I asked my coaches, "Did I win that round?"

   5. JRJoe Rogan16:33

      Hmm.

   6. KUKamaru Usman16:33

      I've never in my career done that. I'm the type of guy, even when I was wrestling, I'm the re- type of wrestler who, I like to run up the scoreboard. I don't like to live- leave any doubt that I won that round. I'm gonna dominate that round. I'm gonna make sure I won. So in my head, I know I won. I don't need to ask.

   7. JRJoe Rogan16:49

      Hmm.

   8. KUKamaru Usman16:49

      For the first time in my career, I went back, I'm like, "Did I win that round? Did I win that round?" And, but I... even by me asking that, I never thought, "Oh, I'm not gonna finish this fight." I always knew I was gonna finish the fight, but I just was like, I was, "D- did I win that? Did I win that?" You know, I don't know why, I don't know how or what- what was going on in my head, but for some reason I asked. I was asking. So I knew the fight was close.

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:13

      It was a good fucking fight, man. It was a good fight. The thing about Colby is he tricks you into thinking he sucks. 'Cause he's got a goofy suit on and he- he talks crazy and, you know, he wears the MAGA hat and all that stuff, but- but then if you didn't see any of that-

   10. KUKamaru Usman17:30

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan17:30

       ... if you just watched him fight, you'd be like, "That motherfucker puts a pace on people."

   12. KUKamaru Usman17:33

       Yeah. A lot of people knew that.

   13. JRJoe Rogan17:33

       What he did to Robbie Lawler, I was like, "Good Lord." Like nobody does that to Robbie Lawler, like he put a fucking pace on him. It just stayed on him. Like guys have wrestled him before, Robbie, you know, like got a hold of him, dragged him down, tried to make it a, you know, a st- you know, try to-

   14. KUKamaru Usman17:48

       Yeah. Oh, yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan17:48

       ... stall him out. That's not what Colby did. Colby just stuck on him like glue and just put that pace on him.

   16. KUKamaru Usman17:54

       Yeah. I mean, he really, he really... that w- he really showed, you know, like how good he is. And I mean, I'm, I- I give respect where respect is due. I'm no- I'm no hater, you know. I know this kid could fight. I knew he was good, I knew he was tough and I knew he was a competitor as well. He's always been a competitor. I knew guys that were on wrestling teams with this guy.... you know, besides Jon Jones. I knew-

   17. JRJoe Rogan18:13

       Right.

   18. KUKamaru Usman18:13

       ... other guys, you know, that I'm f- good friends with that wrestled with him. So, I've always known that he was a competitor, that he was gonna come out and try to compete. You know, but I, like I said, I- I just mentally, I think I'm just on a different level than these guys just because everything that I've been through, that I've done in my life, has shaped me into the man that I am. So mentally, I'm- I'm just on a different level than him.

   19. JRJoe Rogan18:35

       Well, you have to have that attitude, right?

   20. KUKamaru Usman18:37

       Yeah. A- and- and I ju- I s- I just, I felt it. I knew it and I felt it even... And now it's so, more so than ever because now you've got all the fans by, you know, on- on what he's got his fans, you've got... E- everyone has fans that are gonna talk shit (laughs) to you.

   21. JRJoe Rogan18:55

       Yeah. Well, this was-

   22. KUKamaru Usman18:55

       And they make it worse.

   23. JRJoe Rogan18:56

       ... the first time that you had a close fight-

   24. KUKamaru Usman18:58

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan18:58

       ... in the UFC.

   26. KUKamaru Usman18:59

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan18:59

       Which is kinda crazy. I mean, think about your career, it's pretty fucking nuts. I mean, you win the title over one of the best welterweights of all time in Tyron Woodley, and you just dominate him, right? You think about all the other guys, dos Anjos, all those guys you smashed, and wa- I mean, that's... You had a crazy run up to the title, and then a crazy title winning effort, and then this was the first time we saw you in, like, a very close fight.

   28. KUKamaru Usman19:23

       Yeah. I mean, uh, and a- a testament to him too, like, he's a tough guy.

   29. JRJoe Rogan19:27

       He's tough as fuck.

   30. KUKamaru Usman19:27

       Like, at the end of the day, you know, to make fantastic fights, you gotta have the right dance partner.
8. 19:57 – 33:04

   Welterweight landscape: Woodley vs. Edwards, Masvidal hype, rankings, and dark horses

   1. JRJoe Rogan19:57

      I think you guys will see each other again. I do. I'm- I'm really interested to see what happens with Tyron and Leon Edwards. You know, they're fighting next.

   2. KUKamaru Usman20:05

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan20:05

      That's a- a big fight, a very hard fight-

   4. KUKamaru Usman20:07

      It- it is.

   5. JRJoe Rogan20:08

      ... for both guys.

   6. KUKamaru Usman20:08

      It is. It's, um, it's a hard fight for both guys, but it- and it stylistically matches up well for both guys.

   7. JRJoe Rogan20:15

      Mm-hmm.

   8. KUKamaru Usman20:15

      Because Tyron has a lot of successes with- with southpaw guys.

   9. JRJoe Rogan20:19

      Mm-hmm.

   10. KUKamaru Usman20:20

       And-

   11. JRJoe Rogan20:20

       That right hand he's got.

   12. KUKamaru Usman20:21

       Yeah. He's got that- that cannon in his right hand.

   13. JRJoe Rogan20:23

       Mm-hmm.

   14. KUKamaru Usman20:23

       And- and Tyron is very, very good when guys don't completely dominate and control what's going on. And Leon Edwards is- has done better at that with guys that he feels like he can keep up with. But with a guy like Tyron Woodley, that- that can wrestle like Tyron Woodley, that's got power like him, I wonder how he's going to do.

   15. JRJoe Rogan20:43

       Well, I feel like Leon gets the least amount of attention when it comes to-

   16. KUKamaru Usman20:47

       Absolutely.

   17. JRJoe Rogan20:47

       ... like, top flight, world-class fighters. He's a top flight, world-class fighter.

   18. KUKamaru Usman20:51

       Absolutely.

   19. JRJoe Rogan20:51

       But he gets the least amount of attention out of those guys for s- whatever weird reason.

   20. KUKamaru Usman20:55

       Yeah. It's... I mean, it's the era that we live in now. I mean, this- this is the first fight, like, if you really think about it, this is the first fight you're actually starting to hear his voice. Like-

   21. JRJoe Rogan21:03

       Right.

   22. KUKamaru Usman21:04

       Like (laughs) it's like-

   23. JRJoe Rogan21:05

       Yeah.

   24. KUKamaru Usman21:05

       It's like who is Leon, uh, uh-

   25. JRJoe Rogan21:07

       Right, right, right.

   26. KUKamaru Usman21:07

       ... Scott or Edward, whatever his last name is (laughs) .

   27. JRJoe Rogan21:08

       Well, the biggest thing with him was when he had a fistfight with Masvidal. Like, when they- when they had that scrap.

   28. KUKamaru Usman21:14

       Well, it- i- it wasn't a fistfight. Like- like-

   29. JRJoe Rogan21:15

       But Masvidal just cracked him.

   30. KUKamaru Usman21:16

       Wh- wh- what- whatever that guy, w- whatever his name is.
9. 33:04 – 36:36

   Fighter pay reality: early UFC money, expenses, and bonuses

   1. JRJoe Rogan33:04

      That is so crazy. But it's also like, you gotta have good food, right?

   2. KUKamaru Usman33:08

      Oh, yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan33:08

      You gotta have, you gotta be able to afford massage, you gotta be able to afford some things.

   4. KUKamaru Usman33:13

      That costs money.

   5. JRJoe Rogan33:13

      If you're in a... Yeah, if you're in a hardcore training camp and maybe it is better to have like a little bit of a job. And I think Geoff was waiting tables.

   6. KUKamaru Usman33:20

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan33:20

      It's, it... To me, it's crazy. Like, it just seems like where's the money going? Like how much money is a cage fight worth? It should be worth a lot.

   8. KUKamaru Usman33:29

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan33:29

      Like if (laughs) you're fighting on, you're fighting on TV, like fucking-

   10. KUKamaru Usman33:33

       It should be worth a whole lot.

   11. JRJoe Rogan33:34

       ... that should be all you need to do.

   12. KUKamaru Usman33:37

       Yeah. Now, let me see. My first fight in the UFC, let's say I made 10 and 10.

   13. JRJoe Rogan33:42

       Jesus Christ. That's crazy to me.

   14. KUKamaru Usman33:44

       10 and 10. So boom, I go win the fight, $20,000. Boom, I'm like, "Oh sh-... I got 20 grand." All right, now first and foremost, 20% comes off, manager and- and the gym.

   15. JRJoe Rogan33:55

       Right.

   16. KUKamaru Usman33:55

       Boom, off the top.

   17. JRJoe Rogan33:56

       Then taxes.

   18. KUKamaru Usman33:57

       Gone. Taxes. You know, boom, off the top.

   19. JRJoe Rogan34:01

       Yeah.

   20. KUKamaru Usman34:01

       And then it's like, uh, oh yeah, my, my daughter just turned one. Her birthday party's gonna totally cost $2,500.

   21. JRJoe Rogan34:08

       Oh.

   22. KUKamaru Usman34:09

       'Cause it's one, you gotta do it big.

   23. JRJoe Rogan34:11

       Yeah, yeah.

   24. KUKamaru Usman34:11

       Boom, off the top gone. My car, you know, they've been letting me, you know, kinda pile up that car payment for a while now. So I need to pay that, and the insurance, everything that's backed up. So that's like 3,200 boom, off the top.

   25. JRJoe Rogan34:25

       Money's all gone. Everything's gone.

   26. KUKamaru Usman34:27

       Within two weeks, I sat at home still living with Rashad, like I got $3,200 left. I fought like two and a half weeks ago. What... (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan34:38

       That's crazy.

   28. KUKamaru Usman34:39

       What just happened?

   29. JRJoe Rogan34:40

       And it's gotta last you.

   30. KUKamaru Usman34:41

       And it's-
10. 36:36 – 46:12

    Usman’s brother enters MMA: late start, huge athleticism, and careful development

    1. KUKamaru Usman36:36

       Less than that. It- i- it's... And I have friends that, that fight for Bellator, I have friends that fight for, you know, other promotions. And my little brother's fighting too.And so, he's making his way up too. And, and, you know, the one thing about him is I have to keep him somewhat grounded because, you know, he came... He was a big foot- big time football player. And, and, and, you know, potentially should be, you know... Still feels like he should be in the NFL, you know. But the, the thing about that, uh, is keeping his mind in where it should be. That, "Hey, this is why it's gonna feel good when you start making million dollar paychecks." It's okay to make one and one now. It's okay to make 2000 and 2000 now.

    2. JRJoe Rogan37:12

       How long has he been fighting now?

    3. KUKamaru Usman37:13

       Because... Fighting, uh... I wanna say a year and a half, maybe.

    4. JRJoe Rogan37:17

       How long has he been training?

    5. KUKamaru Usman37:18

       A year and a half. (laughs)

    6. JRJoe Rogan37:19

       Oh, shit.

    7. KUKamaru Usman37:20

       Yeah.

    8. JRJoe Rogan37:20

       So he's just getting into it.

    9. KUKamaru Usman37:21

       Yeah, just getting into it.

    10. JRJoe Rogan37:22

        Oh, that's gotta be crazy. Your brother's-

    11. KUKamaru Usman37:23

        Year and a half too.

    12. JRJoe Rogan37:24

        ... a fucking champion of the world.

    13. KUKamaru Usman37:25

        Yeah.

    14. JRJoe Rogan37:25

        And you're just kind of getting your wheels greased up and-

    15. KUKamaru Usman37:28

        See... Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan37:28

        ... getting on the road? (laughs)

    17. KUKamaru Usman37:29

        And I'm... And I, I try to, um... Honestly, I try to make it not, not weird for him because it's, uh... You know, we're a family to where we... Like, we're very, very close family. But imagine boys, that we're all competitive. Boys, like if your brother's doing this good, uh, uh, and like you wanna do it better.

    18. JRJoe Rogan37:47

        Yeah.

    19. KUKamaru Usman37:47

        You know? And I'm imagining how it is for him, you know, to have a brother that's the champion to where now you're in the sport that your brother was a champion in.

    20. JRJoe Rogan37:56

        Yeah.

    21. KUKamaru Usman37:56

        Like how is that? And, and I, I, I don't ever wanna make it weird for him. I wanna make it as easy as possible for him because I want him to be-

    22. JRJoe Rogan38:02

        Good for you, man.

    23. KUKamaru Usman38:03

        I want him to be bigger than... 'Cause he's a heavyweight. Now once he gets that-

    24. JRJoe Rogan38:06

        Really?

    25. KUKamaru Usman38:06

        Yeah, once he gets that-

    26. JRJoe Rogan38:07

        How big is he?

    27. KUKamaru Usman38:08

        I think he's like 6'2", 255, 260.

    28. JRJoe Rogan38:11

        Jesus.

    29. KUKamaru Usman38:11

        I mean when he's... I mean he's a freak.

    30. JRJoe Rogan38:13

        (laughs) Jesus.
11. 46:12 – 57:52

    Dream matchups: GSP first, Conor payday, Masvidal—and why not Khabib or Adesanya

    1. JRJoe Rogan46:12

       You want that fight?

    2. KUKamaru Usman46:13

       Absolutely.

    3. JRJoe Rogan46:13

       If I could give you a magic wand. If I could give you a magic wand, say, Kamaru, you can pick, ping. Who- who are you pointing that magic wand at?

    4. KUKamaru Usman46:20

       GSP, all day.

    5. JRJoe Rogan46:20

       GSP.

    6. KUKamaru Usman46:21

       All day.

    7. JRJoe Rogan46:22

       Just for the legend status.

    8. KUKamaru Usman46:24

       Yeah, because, um, George did, he went out the way you're supposed to go out.

    9. JRJoe Rogan46:30

       Hmm.

    10. KUKamaru Usman46:30

        And he can still do it. Like, he proved it two years ago.

    11. JRJoe Rogan46:33

        Proved it, yeah.

    12. KUKamaru Usman46:33

        He came back and- and not just do it, go up a weight class-

    13. JRJoe Rogan46:36

        Mm-hmm.

    14. KUKamaru Usman46:36

        ... and- and get it done. He can still do it. He's training, he's one of those guys that's not just gonna stop training.

    15. JRJoe Rogan46:41

        Yeah.

    16. KUKamaru Usman46:41

        He's been training, he's still training. Um, a- and I know he's, he can compete still.

    17. JRJoe Rogan46:46

        Feras says he's still the best fucking guy he's ever seen. He's like, "The guy's still the fucking man, right now in the gym, training hard, like nobody could touch him."

    18. KUKamaru Usman46:54

        Yeah, and- and I like to test that, you know? With, a- and- and I, big respect to George. This is no disrespect by any means, but there's a reason guys like myself and- and- and- and Khabib wanna fight him.

    19. JRJoe Rogan47:05

        Mm-hmm.

    20. KUKamaru Usman47:06

        I- it's because we- we- we wanna test ourselves. This is not a matter of disrespect and, "Oh, I wanna beat this guy's ass." No, i- it's George was the best. He did everything the right way a- a- and- and got to the top and walked away, and he can still do it. So we wanna test ourself against a guy like that because we, uh, we pride ourselves on being the best. We've worked tirelessly to get to this point to where it's not necessarily for hype, it's not for the money. Like all that is good, yes, you know, that- that's great. But we wanna test ourself against the best to ever do it.

    21. JRJoe Rogan47:41

        Hmm.

    22. KUKamaru Usman47:41

        And that's what George symbolizes. And- and of course myself. I- I'm, he's in my weight, I'm (laughs) you know... Now I'm the king, he was the king, like...

    23. JRJoe Rogan47:49

        It's interesting that you would prefer that over Conor 'cause I think the Conor fight would be the biggest payday, right?

    24. KUKamaru Usman47:54

        Absolutely. I think, ah...

    25. JRJoe Rogan47:56

        You don't think so?

    26. KUKamaru Usman47:58

        Well, well, I mean, I don't know. They're both-

    27. JRJoe Rogan48:00

        Red panties night.

    28. KUKamaru Usman48:01

        (laughs)

    29. JRJoe Rogan48:01

        That's red panties night.

    30. KUKamaru Usman48:02

        We all love red panties (laughs) .
12. 57:52 – 1:23:18

    Mike Tyson encounters and championship mindset: gym killers vs. big-stage fighters

    1. JRJoe Rogan57:52

       Did you get high as fuck?

    2. KUKamaru Usman57:53

       (laughs)

    3. JRJoe Rogan57:54

       (laughs)

    4. KUKamaru Usman57:56

       Uh... (laughs) No, I-

    5. JRJoe Rogan57:58

       You don't have to say.

    6. KUKamaru Usman57:59

       You know what? I, uh-

    7. JRJoe Rogan57:59

       Just go, "No."

    8. KUKamaru Usman58:00

       I did the... I did the... (laughs)

    9. JRJoe Rogan58:02

       (laughs)

    10. KUKamaru Usman58:02

        I did their podcast and they... the Hotboxin'.

    11. JRJoe Rogan58:04

        Did you get hotboxed?

    12. KUKamaru Usman58:06

        I, I think I did.

    13. JRJoe Rogan58:06

        In the room?

    14. KUKamaru Usman58:07

        I think... I think I caught some contact. I'm not gonna lie. They, they were all smoking-

    15. JRJoe Rogan58:10

        Of course.

    16. KUKamaru Usman58:11

        ... in there and, uh, I walked out of there feeling lighter.

    17. JRJoe Rogan58:14

        Oh, yeah.

    18. KUKamaru Usman58:14

        I felt so much lighter. I was just like, "What? This is-"

    19. JRJoe Rogan58:16

        That felt great.

    20. KUKamaru Usman58:17

        "... I feel okay." Like, this is good.

    21. JRJoe Rogan58:18

        Dude-

    22. KUKamaru Usman58:18

        It's not bad.

    23. JRJoe Rogan58:18

        ... getting high with Mike Tyson and doing a podcast was one of the weirdest moments of my life.

    24. KUKamaru Usman58:22

        Really?

    25. JRJoe Rogan58:22

        Yeah, man, because I idolized him as a kid. And here I am, I'm sitting across from him. Dude, when I was young and Mike Tyson was the champ, he was a fucking icon.

    26. KUKamaru Usman58:33

        Yes.

    27. JRJoe Rogan58:33

        It was different.

    28. KUKamaru Usman58:34

        He's still that way.

    29. JRJoe Rogan58:34

        Yeah, but it was... Back... But what I'm saying is, like, when he was the champ, it was different than any other champ. People forget the heavyweight division back there was in stagnant. It was stagnant. Nobody cared. Like Larry Holmes was a phenomenal boxer, but Larry Holmes had beaten Muhammad Ali and no one ever forgave him. He beat the fuck out of Ali and it was... when Ali was already done and everybody felt sad that now Larry Holmes was the champ and they didn't... they didn't appreciate him. And then the people that Larry Holmes fought, they were kinda lackluster. No one was really... No one stood out as being this fucking god. And then when Spinks beat him by decision, it's like the, the whole division was just stagnant.

    30. KUKamaru Usman59:18

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 3:03:01