JRE MMA Show #9 with Jeff Novitzky

Joe Rogan 0:02 Four, three, two, one. Ladies and gentlemen, Jeff Novitzky.

Jeff Novitzky 0:08 How are you, buddy? What's up, Joe? Doing good. You?

Joe Rogan 0:10 I have to ask you. Do you mind the nickname the Golden Snitch?

Jeff Novitzky 0:13 It's the first thing I was gonna bring up-

Joe Rogan 0:15 (laughs)

Jeff Novitzky 0:15 ... with you. This Golden Snitch bullshit.

Joe Rogan 0:18 (laughs) I just wanna say, it's not my nickname, it's Brendan Schaub's. He came up with it 100% on his own.

Jeff Novitzky 0:25 I was gonna ask you. It's all good, though.

Joe Rogan 0:27 It's okay?

Jeff Novitzky 0:27 It's all good. It's all good. So a couple funny stories about that. So I don't ... When did he come up with this, about a year ago?

Joe Rogan 0:33 At least, yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 0:35 So, so people in the office started coming up to me saying, "Hey, Golden Snitch." And I'm like-

Joe Rogan 0:38 (laughs)

Jeff Novitzky 0:39 ... wh- what the hell is that?

Joe Rogan 0:40 (laughs)

Jeff Novitzky 0:41 So I do a little research, I see something about Harry Potter, some character-

Joe Rogan 0:45 (laughs)

Jeff Novitzky 0:45 ... named there. I'm like, "What the hell does this have to do with me?" So about a month ago, somebody lets me know, "Hey, check out Wikipedia." So for whatever reason, there's a Jeff Novitzky Wikipedia page. You go to that page now, it says, says actually my formal name, Jeffrey John Novitzky, AKA The Golden Snitch.

Joe Rogan 1:02 (laughs)

Jeff Novitzky 1:04 So last week, Donna Marcolini, you know Donna.

Joe Rogan 1:07 Yeah. (laughs)

Jeff Novitzky 1:08 Um, long, 15-year employee of the UFC, now works with me, and talk about her a little later, is a great asset to what we're doing. She sends me a text, she says, "Check this out." So she's got one of those Amazon Echos, um, Alexa, I think.

Joe Rogan 1:23 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 1:23 So she says, "Alexa, who is Jeff Novitzky?" And Alexa's name says, "Jeffrey John Novitzky, AKA The Golden Snitch."

Joe Rogan 1:32 (laughs)

Jeff Novitzky 1:32 So thanks a lot, Schaub.

Joe Rogan 1:34 (laughs) Oh, Schaub, what have you done? That's hilar- I love Donna. She's amazing.

Jeff Novitzky 1:38 She's awesome. So-

Joe Rogan 1:39 It's great that she's over there. She's so good.

Jeff Novitzky 1:41 Yeah, I mean, you know about kind of her history.

Joe Rogan 1:43 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 1:43 She's one of the five original employees of the UFC, was Dana's assistant to start out with. Uh, went on to become VP of Event Operations, so basically, you know, she got everybody to the event, set up hotel at the event, ran the crew, you know, the blue shirts backstage that run the event. Um, you know, I think after doing it for many years, she got a little burnt out on it, so went to Dana, uh, midsummer and says, "Look, I, I don't think I want to do this anymore. But I'd really love to do something else, and, and I've seen kind of what Jeff's doing in his program, I'd really like to go th- over there and work with him and kind of learn, you know, what he's doing." And so Dana pulled me into the office and said, "Hey, you know, what do you think about this idea?" And it took me literally a half second to say, "100% on board." This woman, um, as you probably know, is about as attention to detail and passionate about her work as anybody. And really, my positioning, unlike the, the, the name the Golden Snitch, is an advocate to our athletes, to make sure our athletes are successful under the program, not that they fail under the program.

Joe Rogan 2:47 It's definitely the wrong nickname. It's just catchy.

Jeff Novitzky 2:49 It is.

Joe Rogan 2:50 It's unfortunately (laughs) catchy.

Jeff Novitzky 2:51 Again, I'm, uh, I'm all good with it.

Joe Rogan 2:53 (laughs)

Jeff Novitzky 2:53 Let it roll off my back.

Joe Rogan 2:54 But, uh, the, the real golden snitch is Victor Conte. He's the golden snitch, right?

Jeff Novitzky 2:59 Yeah, I mean, I can s-

Joe Rogan 2:59 'Cause he's actually a snitch.

Jeff Novitzky 3:00 ... I can see that. I can see that.

Joe Rogan 3:01 'Cause he was a guy-

Jeff Novitzky 3:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:02 ... who was giving guys steroids. You were a guy that was always catching people.

Jeff Novitzky 3:06 Correct.

Joe Rogan 3:06 So it's the wrong moniker.

Jeff Novitzky 3:07 Yeah, correct. Giving them steroids and then talking about it after, right?

Joe Rogan 3:11 Yes.

Jeff Novitzky 3:11 Snitching. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:12 That's a snitch.

Jeff Novitzky 3:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:13 That's the Golden Snitch.

Jeff Novitzky 3:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:14 Not you, man.

Jeff Novitzky 3:15 But it's all good. I was hoping Schaub would be here.

Joe Rogan 3:17 (laughs) Call him up.

Jeff Novitzky 3:18 I don't know that I-

Joe Rogan 3:18 We'll call him up later in the show.

Jeff Novitzky 3:19 ... I wouldn't... Not that I could do anything to him, but-

Joe Rogan 3:20 (laughs)

Jeff Novitzky 3:20 ... it'd be interesting to look at him in the face.

Joe Rogan 3:22 (laughs) He would say, "I'm sorry, bro. I'm sorry."

Jeff Novitzky 3:25 It's all good.

Joe Rogan 3:26 Yeah, well, anyway, back to Donna. She's awesome, um, so I'm super psyched that she's with you. So what exactly does she do for you guys?

Jeff Novitzky 3:32 Again, her ... You know, when I sat her down this summer, I said, "Look, your role here is gonna make sure that the athletes are successful under the program." And in a program like this, there's so many landmines, you know, whether it be making sure your whereabouts filing is at ti- is on time, making sure USADA knows where you're at so they can come do a collection from you at any time. Uh, making sure you make safe supplement choices. Making sure the medications you're taking are correct. So she, you know, works hard for all those things. I give you the prime example of what she brings to this program. So every three months, so every quarter, every single athlete on the roster is required to, to file what's called quarterly whereabouts.

Joe Rogan 4:13 Can I pause right here?

Jeff Novitzky 4:15 Yep.

Joe Rogan 4:15 Just, just so, so this can be a standalone, if people don't know exactly what you do.

Jeff Novitzky 4:18 Sure.

Joe Rogan 4:19 (clears throat) Um, Jeff is in charge of making sure that all the UFC athletes are clean and free of performance-enhancing substances, and it was a huge issue, before you came along, a huge issue in the sport and, and continues to be in other organizations, particularly overseas. I mean, there's just rampant speculation about companies that literally encourage people to take steroids. It was always the case with PRIDE in Japan, that was one of the, the big things about PRIDE, Enson Inoue, who fought for them many times, came o- on the podcast and literally was saying, in the contract, in like capital letters, it says, "We will not test you for steroids." Like, they wanted everybody to take steroids. They... I had friends who went to fight over there, they told them to take steroids and move up a weight class. So it was always an issue in the sport that this was a dirty sport, air quotes, right? Um, but since you've come along, and since you guys started instituting this incredibly strict testing, we've seen some pretty radical changes. We've seen some amazing fights and amazing performances, and I don't think the performance level has dropped, in fact, I think it escalated and elevated rather, which is something that people were really concerned about. But one thing that we did see is some people that you suspected of doing stuff, their bodies radically changed. It was really ... I mean, that became a meme, pre-USADA and post-USADA. I mean, and there's some comedy memes out there because of it, because people's bodies changed so radically.

Jeff Novitzky 5:48 Yeah, it's interesting, you know, the, the last time I was on, we talked about kind of the smell test, you know-

Joe Rogan 5:52 Yes.

Jeff Novitzky 5:52 ... looking at somebody and, you know, it, it's difficult to say definitively whether or not, you know, changes in bodies are due to that or not, but, you know, you can't...... help, but, but look at some of these pictures before and after USADA-

Joe Rogan 6:03 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 6:03 ... and think that's the case. That's something I always struggle with. How do you judge the success of a program? Um, you know, do you judge it on numbers of positive tests? I don't think that's necessarily the case. You know, maybe, maybe you're not catching everybody. Maybe there's no one to catch. Um, do you judge it on before and after pictures? I don't know. I mean, that, that could be, you know, one factor. I like to judge it a lot anecdotally. You know, a big part of my job is getting out and building relationships with our

Jeff Novitzky 6:33 fighters, with managers, with coaches, and just, you know, chewing on their ear and, and, and figuring out what they're seeing and what they're hearing. And almost universally, the feedback I get from, from them is, "This is making a big difference." Um, you know, one thing I brought with me today, and really the coolest piece of data I think I've seen in any anti-doping program, are some really objective measurable statistics in the UFC anti-doping program. USADA, so USADA's the United States Anti-Doping Agency. They're the official anti-doping agency of the United States by an act of Congress. They're in charge of all drug testing for US Olympic sports. Uh, back in 2015, we made the decision to outsource the administration of our program to USADA. The primary reason being the independence factor. Um, you know, when you look at all these other professional sports leagues, some have, you know, better programs than others. None really have any independence in the administration of that program. And what that means is, there's no way of telling whether or not, um, you know, when an athlete is sanctioned, it's done for business reasons or done for favoritism. So in our program, you know, no one can say that, that any of the administration of our program is done for that reason. It's a truly independent authority. So what USADA did recently is they went back, and they've been in existence since I think about 2001 on the US Olympic level. They went back and took a look at every single doper, uh, I think for steroids. Everyone was caught for steroids in the existence of the USADA program. And took a look at each of those athletes' biological passports and biological markers, and they looked at what was the most common factor for the doper versus, you know, the non-doper. And what they determined was what stood out the most was large variance in testosterone excretion in the urine. And when you think about it from a common sense point of view, that, that kind of makes sense, in that someone who's using steroids at that time presents a sample. Their testosterone excretion is probably gonna be on the higher end, and if they were to catch a doper on an off-cycle, what happens when you get off steroids is your body suppresses production of testosterone. So in that case, you're gonna see a very low excretion of testosterone. So they looked at that and plotted it out and saw, "Hey, every doper has a, a very large variance in testosterone excretion." Then what they did is they took all the UFC samples and they plotted them out by quarter, and I actually brought a graph along with me. And it's some really drastic, I think, visual evidence of the success and the impact of this program. And I don't know if you can throw that up now-

Joe Rogan 9:18 Yeah, why don't you pull it up.

Jeff Novitzky 9:18 ... and take a look at it.

Joe Rogan 9:19 Pull that up. (clears throat) Um, y- so what, what year exactly did, uh, USADA take over?

Jeff Novitzky 9:27 Yeah. So we came... USADA came into play July of 2015. So USADA's been in existence for two years.

Joe Rogan 9:33 (clears throat)

Jeff Novitzky 9:33 So you see here, um, that first quarter, quarter three of 2015, a pretty decent variance there, um, which means in any given test an athlete, you know, was up on an average a little bit above 30, um, a little, you know, in the mid-20s. And then look at, as you plot out that graph, uh, that variance becomes smaller and smaller and smaller and more in the, the medium range as it gets out to, you know, quarter three of 2017.

Joe Rogan 10:00 That's very interesting.

Jeff Novitzky 10:01 You don't, you don't ... This is, uh, you don't usually see statistics. This is the first... You know, I've been involved in anti-doping world since 2002, and I can unequiv- equivocally say that this is the strongest visual, objective, measurable evidence of success of a program that I've ever seen.

Joe Rogan 10:18 Well, one of the things that's so fascinating about this, and, um, this, this goes to, this goes to credit to the UFC 100%, is that they decided to do something about this. They didn't have to. This wasn't like, uh, someone coming after them because, uh, you know, so many people had been caught and someone said, "Hey, we're gonna put a program on you guys to make sure you're not doping." No. The UFC said, "We gotta clean this up, and there's, there's only one way. The w- the one way is to go with the very best testing possible, and the most rigorous, the most... I mean, ch- check in everywhere you go. We're gonna give you random tests at six o'clock in the morning, knock on your door." Like, the whole, the whole full gamut of tests. And the results have been pretty amazing. And that alone, s- that speaks volumes when you see the size of the variance between the, uh, the tests when you guys first started-

Jeff Novitzky 11:08 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 11:08 ... versus now.

Jeff Novitzky 11:09 Definitely. Hey, you know, it, it's a credit to two people, Lorenzo Fertitta and, and Dana White that, you know, made that decision. That's a, a hell of a risky decision, but done for all the right reasons. You know, anybody that contends that, you know, Dana doesn't care about his athletes need look no further than this program. This program is of tremendous risk to the company and to the bottom line. When you're testing athletes 365 days a year, unannounced, no predictability of when the test is coming, there can be some very severe consequences to-

Joe Rogan 11:39 And there have been.

Jeff Novitzky 11:40 There has been.

Joe Rogan 11:40 We've lost several main events.

Jeff Novitzky 11:42 There has been. I mean, UFC 200-

Joe Rogan 11:44 (clears throat) Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 11:45 The land- arguably the landmark event in the history of the UFC, we lose our main event the Wednesday before UFC 200. Millions, if not tens of millions, into the marketing of that.... um, you know, the success of the pay-per-view probably hinges on that great main event between Jon and, and Daniel, and we lost it three or four days before, and that could happen at an- you know, at any given moment.

Joe Rogan 12:13 Now, we talked about this before the podcast, um, what you could or could not talk about with the current state of Jon Jones' investigation. So, where's it at right now?

Jeff Novitzky 12:22 Yeah, so, you know, generally, we don't talk about, um, a case. So, so, how the process works when an athlete tests positive-

Joe Rogan 12:30 (coughs)

Jeff Novitzky 12:30 ... USADA will notify me. Um, I usually pick the phone up right away and call Dana and let him know, and the UFC puts out an announcement. They say, you know, "In the case of Jon, Jon tested positive, uh, in an- in an in-competition test on this date." Um, you know, "More information will be provided at the appropriate time." That's generally all we'll talk about. Now, if the athlete chooses to talk about, you know, scenarios of w- of what happened, then they're free to do that. Um, at that point, USADA and the UFC can comment on it. So there's been some things talked about in the Jon case, um, by Jon. Um, particularly he had two clean tests on July 7th and July 8th before his positive test on, I think, July 30th, which was his weigh-in day. Um, and the positive test was for dehydrochloromethyltestosterone or oral Turinabol. Um, this is a substance that was used by the East Germans, um, regularly in the late '60s, and then came into the fold a little bit more, um, of what's come out recently, um, out of Russia. So, um, I know you had, uh, Bryan Fogel on for-

Joe Rogan 13:37 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 13:38 ... for the Icarus movie, and I think he talked about- a little bit about this. Um, uh, Grigory, the head of the- the Moscow WADA laboratory, that- this drug became kind of part of his protocol, um, with his athletes. He then, ironically enough, developed a test for the long-term metabolites of the drug. So previous to that, the detection window of this drug was a couple of days, so it was a drug that, you know, even if you were on a strict program, an athlete may gamble with taking because it had a quick clearance time. After he discovered the long-term metabolite, um, test, that changed and went from a detecten- when- detection window of a couple of days to a detection window of several months. And this was widely known. You know, it wasn't a secret. Initially, they kept it quiet. They went back and retested some samples, and there was a whole, you know, bunch of positives, and then it got out 2013 around that there was this new test. So, right up front, you know, I've- I've said this a while now, is- would not make a lot of sense for an individual, a UFC athlete that knew, you know, especially, you know, a- a champion contender like Jon Jones that knew, "Hey, I'm tested quite regularly in this program," would not make a lot of sense that that would be your drug of choice if you were intentionally trying to cheat. Um, I think it's come out after the fact that, uh, USADA did another test on Jon, um, a month or two or a couple months after his positive test and he was negative during that test. So that would be indicative that, you know, the prohibited system entered his system- or the prohibited substance entered his system, you know, some time after July 7th or 8th and was likely, you know, a pretty small amount in that it cleared his system pretty quickly. Um, again, you know, who knows where it plays out, but certainly on the surface of things, I have said, you know, at this point in the game with that type of information out there, um, it- it wouldn't indicate intentional use. Now, that could be wrong. I don't know that definitively, and- and we'll see how this plays out. Uh, right now where the process is is Jon and USADA are working closely. Um, I'm aware that there was a meeting a week or two ago, a pretty lengthy meeting, which, uh, I was told was productive. Uh, I wasn't given details of what productive meant, um, but I think that's an important thing right now and that Jon's following through with is to retrace all of his steps between that, you know, Ju- last July 8th positive test and- or negative test and the positive test on July 29th or July 30th.

Joe Rogan 16:09 It certainly seems like, uh, based on what you just said, that this is something that was accidentally taken. But if you can't prove that something was accidentally taken, like if you can't nail it down, what do you- what happens there?

Jeff Novitzky 16:22 Yeah, it's- it's difficult. And that's- you know, that's kind of the nightmare scenario that a lot of- you know, that an athlete can face. And- and a big role of what Donna and I do to prevent that from happening to show them what type of care and consideration is needed to make sure you don't get into a scenario like that. You know, under a program like this, you have to be careful about everything that's put into your body. Um, everything. And, uh, if you're not, there can be, you know, severe consequences. Um, so yeah, we'll- we'll see where this plays out. I- I tell you the one thing that I- that I can say about this is, you know, this is obviously Jon's second time, um, in the program with testing positive, and- and the first time he went through a pretty lengthy, um, appeal process, and there was a publicly issued, uh, decision, 50, 60 pages that went through all the evidence that, um, that the independent, um, uh, arbitrators heard and- and decided on. And what they said definitively in that case was Jon- there was no evidence that Jon intentionally cheated, however, he operated with careless, reckless disregard. Um, so he ended up getting the maximum for that- for those substances he tested positive for, a year.

Joe Rogan 17:35 And that was for some gas station Viagra-type shit.

Jeff Novitzky 17:38 Uh, well, it was actually a couple of anti-estrogen drugs, but what was shown and what the evidence pointed to was that he took a pill, um, that was manufactured from a website by the name of All American Peptide. Uh, the pill was purported to be a Cialis, um, pill, so an erectile def- dysfunction pill that was tainted with these two drugs.

Joe Rogan 18:00 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 18:00 Now, the problem that what the arbitrator said is if he would've gone to that website, and the arbitrators did and I did, you would've seen that that same website offered-... you know, tons of performance-enhancing- prohibited performance-enhancing drugs. And the website said, you know, "Not for human consumption, for research purposes only."

Joe Rogan 18:19 (laughs)

Jeff Novitzky 18:19 So it really was careless disregard. That being said, however, Jon's, you know, second time through the program now. The second sanction, this time for, you know, an anabolic-type steroid, would have, you know, a starting point, potentially, of a four-year suspension.

Joe Rogan 18:36 That's a starting point.

Jeff Novitzky 18:36 That could be a starting point, right.

Joe Rogan 18:38 Unless-

Jeff Novitzky 18:38 Unless there are mitigating factors. Now, I don't ... You know, again, the beauty of this program is it's not the UFC or not me deciding-

Joe Rogan 18:46 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 18:46 ... you know, what the sanction's gonna be. No one can accuse us of, you know, operating for business purposes or favoritism or whatever.

Joe Rogan 18:53 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 18:53 Um, but that being said, you know, when we put this program together and figured out, you know, what sanctioning would look like, I don't necessarily think (laughs) that we put up a four-year sanction, um, for a second-term offense when the first-term offense was shown that that person didn't cheat intentionally-

Joe Rogan 19:09 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 19:09 ... just operated with careless disregard. So-

Joe Rogan 19:12 So, who makes that distinction then, USADA?

Jeff Novitzky 19:14 USADA makes that distinction. They, you know, they have a whole team looking at it. They compare it to other cases under, you know, the WADA, uh, Olympic-type umbrella, similar cases. Um, I will say this, that, you know, I think we've had, uh, a few over 60, um, positive adverse events in this case, and those that have been adjudicated, I've been comfortable every time that they've made a fair and balanced and reasonable decision. And that's ... Part of my job is to be the eyes and ears for athletes, to make sure not only is the program being administered properly and has strength, but also that they're being treated fairly and that they have due process. So I have all the confidence in the world, however this does come out, that it will be the right decision. The other really cool thing about the program is the transparency of the program. So, you know, it won't just be me saying this. However it does come out, whether it goes to arbitration or whether Jon and USADA reach a settlement, it'll be well spelled out about why that sanction, uh, was determined.

Joe Rogan 20:13 Now, you say starting point, meaning that it could p- potentially be more?

Jeff Novitzky 20:18 It could. So, uh, when there's something called aggravating circumstances, so more than just knowingly taking the drug-

Joe Rogan 20:25 Lying.

Jeff Novitzky 20:25 ... taking the drug and lying, trying to cover it up, taking multiple drugs, one trying to hide the other, yeah, you could, you could get double, um, uh, the sanction amount. So, um, you know, on a second-time anabolic steroid, four years is kind of the starting point. You can go lower for mitigating factors. You can go higher for aggravating factors, up to eight years. Um, so yeah, I mean, it would, it would have to require something, you know, really severe and-

Joe Rogan 20:52 Up to eight years, wow.

Jeff Novitzky 20:52 ... egregious to get, to get up that, that high.

Joe Rogan 20:54 Has anybody ever gotten that hit?

Jeff Novitzky 20:56 Not in the UFC program, no.

Joe Rogan 20:58 What is the biggest hit that anyone's ever gotten in the UFC?

Jeff Novitzky 21:00 Uh, I think, thus far, it's two years.

Joe Rogan 21:02 And who's that?

Jeff Novitzky 21:02 Um, I think a few people. Uh, Chad Mendes comes to mind. Um-

Joe Rogan 21:08 And Chad Mendes, his was some sort of psoriasis cream or something?

Jeff Novitzky 21:13 His was an insulin growth factor one, so IGF-1.

Joe Rogan 21:16 And did he say that it came from a psoriasis cream?

Jeff Novitzky 21:19 I think he may have said that.

Joe Rogan 21:20 Yeah. That was never proven or ...

Jeff Novitzky 21:23 No. I mean, there was nothing in USADA's reasoning or their announcement of why it was two years about, you know, any type of mitigating factor coming from another substance.

Joe Rogan 21:29 'Cause I know he has psoriasis. And someone had said or I'd read ... I didn't really investigate very deeply into this, but I remember reading that he had put some sort of cream on and that that cream was responsible for him testing positive. Was that ...

Jeff Novitzky 21:42 Yeah, I, I don't know if that's the case. I do recall him saying that, but, you know, hey, an athlete can say anything they want-

Joe Rogan 21:47 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 21:47 ... about why it happened. If, if there was something mitigating, they are afforded that right to share with USADA that, "Look, I didn't do this on purpose."

Joe Rogan 21:55 Hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 21:55 "It wasn't on the label of the cream." Usually, in those instances where the evidence does show that, you will see, you know, a mitigating factor come into play and a reduction in a sanction. There wasn't any in that case. It was the two years.

Joe Rogan 22:06 And there have been some guys that have gotten pretty low sentences, like Tim Means is a good example, right? Tim Means did take something that was, uh, tainted, and you guys or USADA g- got some of those samples from independent stores-

Jeff Novitzky 22:20 Yep.

Joe Rogan 22:20 ... found out those were also tainted.

Jeff Novitzky 22:21 Yeah, Tim Means took a supplement. It was a creatine. Um, and, you know, after he tested positive ... And again, this is where Donna c- and I come into play quite a bit. You know, when athletes test positive, we reach out to them right away, saying, "Look, we're here to help you here, if there's help to be had. Uh, we'll believe you till you give us reason not to." Um, I did that with Tim. Tim said, "I'd never heard of the substance, Jeff. I ... You gotta believe me, I didn't take it." I said, "All right, well, let's start doing, retracing steps. What have you been taking?" Um, he sent me, you know, maybe a half-dozen supplements. Did some research on them, worked ... uh, reached out to kind of contacts I still have in the, in the industry from my law enforcement days and said, "Hey, any of these kind of raise suspicions?" And there was one that did, by a company that made some other kind of sketchy products. Um, we narrowed in on that one pretty quickly, sent it to USADA, to a WADA laboratory, tested it. Sure enough, it had the substance in it. Um, then what happens is USADA will independently procure some themselves. So, outside of the kind of touch of the athlete to make sure the athlete's not contaminating with it for-

Joe Rogan 23:30 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 23:30 ... a built-in excuse. They were able to get some that was sealed and unopened, and sure enough, it, it had that substance in it and had the same amount of the substance in it that kind of matched up with how much was in Tim's system and when he said-

Joe Rogan 23:43 Hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 23:43 ... he had taken it last. So, there's a lot of detective work that comes into it. And I get, I get this question a lot from fighters saying, "Hey ...... the, the supplement excuse is a bullshit excuse that, you know, there's athletes using stuff, and they have supplements in their closet that they know is, are tainted. And then boom, if they test positive, they just have that built-in excuse. And what I tell them is, it, it goes deeper than that. There's literally detect- scientific detective work that's going on from the USADA side, making sure everything matches, making sure they independently procure the product, making sure what turns up in the athlete's system, based on when they say they were taking it, matches exactly the level that's in the product based on, you know, metabolism, uh, timings. So it's much more than that. And I, I do have a lot of confidence when USADA says, "Hey, it does match that this is, you know, came from an unknowingly or unintentional ingestion," that it really is that.

Joe Rogan 24:38 Now, with, in a case like Tim Means, why is he suspended?

Jeff Novitzky 24:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:42 If, if someone does give him a tainted supplement and he takes it in good faith, thinking that it's just creatine?

Jeff Novitzky 24:49 Right. So, so there's strict liability in the program, and you know, they look at all the factors. So, you know, creatine is a relatively low risk product. However, the creatine Tim took was not third-party certified. And that, you know, get a lot of questions about, "Man, this supplement industry is dangerous," and, you know, "This sucks for a- for athletes. There's nothing they can do." There is something that you can do, and it's actually pretty simple to do. Um, we were talking earlier about, uh, about Onnit, um, a company you're involved with, and, and you guys third-party certify a lot of your product. And what that means is, you, um, outsource random testing of the product and sampling of the product, um, from these independent companies to make sure they contain no prohibited substances. And, you know, what Don and I educate our athletes to is, you can go to these third-party certification companies. I think you guys use Catlin's group.

Joe Rogan 25:43 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 25:43 Banned Substance Control Group. There's that group. Um, there's Informed Choice. Um, there's NSF for Sport.

Joe Rogan 25:51 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 25:51 And you can go to their websites, and they have lists of all certified products, and there's hundreds of them. So there's-

Joe Rogan 25:58 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 25:58 ... there's no excuse that you can't find as, you know, a UFC athlete, products that are tested and independently certified as banned-substance free. And if it were the case, and it's not saying that it couldn't happen, because those companies aren't testing every single bottle of product, but if you're an athlete, you take a third-party-certified product, you record it, you log it, and it turns out to be from that product, I think then you're reaching, you know, a level where the mitigating factors maybe do get you down to no sanction, you know, a public warning or something, "Hey, you know, maybe you shouldn't use supplements at all," type of thing.

Joe Rogan 26:33 Right. So his error was just taking something that was not third-party certified?

Jeff Novitzky 26:35 Correct, and just not doing his homework-

Joe Rogan 26:36 So wait a ...

Jeff Novitzky 26:37 ... on the company.

Joe Rogan 26:37 He got like six months off-

Jeff Novitzky 26:37 There is a responsibility to that.

Joe Rogan 26:39 ... or something like that?

Jeff Novitzky 26:40 Yeah, six months.

Joe Rogan 26:40 Which seems like a lot, but in reality, most fighters, it's really, he's really only got about three months off, 'cause most fighters after a fight are gonna take a few months off anyway.

Jeff Novitzky 26:47 Probably. I mean, it seems harsh, but there is, there is, uh, an obligation that fighters need to do their homework, and you need to have a bit of a deterrent there to make sure they do it. And, and that's that deterrent.

Joe Rogan 26:59 Now, one of the things that I thought was really cool about the UFC Performance Institute, which is just, that's, uh, there's so much cool about that place, but one of the things that was really cool is that you guys have a station where an athlete can go in and check any sort of substance, any cold medication they're taking, anything, type in the name of it, and it'll tell you on this, like, giant tablet whether or not what you're taking is banned.

Jeff Novitzky 27:22 Yeah. So it's, it's a kiosk. So it's a USADA kiosk, and we have like a little iPad in there, and it's between the locker rooms and the recovery room. So it's, you know, you got your hot-cool and your col- cold pool, um, and your sauna and your cryo and all that stuff. So it's a constant reminder as our athletes are in that flow between that area, 'cause they all walk through there every day, that USADA's a part of this sport, that we're a clean sport, that you have an obligation to check on medication, supplements, and you have an obligation to file your whereabouts. They can also file whereabouts at that kiosk. And we get athletes all the time walking down that corridor saying, "Oh, shit, forgot to tell USADA. Flew out to Las Vegas at the PI." Boom, they can get on in a minute or two and update where they're at. So ...

Joe Rogan 28:06 Do you guys have an app?

Jeff Novitzky 28:08 They do. So, um ...

Joe Rogan 28:09 So they can update by a app?

Jeff Novitzky 28:10 Yep.

Joe Rogan 28:10 That's great.

Jeff Novitzky 28:10 So it's on your phone as well. So every quarter, athletes are required to get on, uh, through a web browser, what's called the quarterly USADA whereabouts filing. They usually have to watch an instructional video, most of the time reminders about smart supplement choices, um, things like that. And then they tell USADA where they're gonna be for the next three months. And most of the time, hey, I mean, I do, Don and I do the whereabouts filing as well, and we both say, "Hey, who knows where I'm gonna be next week, yet alone two, three months from now?" But you make your best guess at it, and then all that information you put, uh, through the web browser is downloaded to your mobile phone app. So that as your plans change over the next, you know, couple weeks, couple months, you can do 45-second to one-minute updates through your mobile app. Um, so the convenience is there. There's really, you know, no excuse and, and not letting USADA know, um, where you're at. S- There are repercussions if you don't let them know where you're at, um, because you wanna avoid somebody, you know, ducking and dodging a test. But-

Joe Rogan 29:11 I know Cowboy had a situation where he was actually in Vegas at the fights, and they were mad at him 'cause he didn't say that he was gonna be in Vegas. He's like, "I'm at the fucking fights."

Jeff Novitzky 29:20 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:20 "I'm right here. I'm on TV."

Jeff Novitzky 29:22 Don and I do everything we can to try to let USADA know when we know that a fighter has a UFC obligation. So whether they're a guest fighter on the road, whether they're, you know, at a competition, we're always passing that information along to USADA. But we also tell them that ultimately, it's, it's your responsibility as an athlete. We'll try to, but, you know, we can't guarantee it ultimately is gonna fall on you if you don't update. Now, the good thing about this is you're afforded a couple mistakes under the whereabouts program. So it's not until three whereabouts failures in any rolling 12-month period that there can be sanctions because honestly, I mean-... things happen in your life, everybody's human, sometimes you forget. I'll give you the perfect example. So again, getting back to Donna, the most, um, attention to detail person that I've ever worked with in my working career. She comes over, joins, kind of, our program here. We get her signed up for Whereabouts. She's like, "This is great," like, "I can talk knowledgeably about how to do this." We went out to Anaheim for UFC ... f- ... I forget what number that was. Um, we take a trip down from Anaheim to San Diego. We went down to this clinic he- uh, that we were checking out for brain therapy. She forgot to update that she was going to San Diego. She was more than two hours outside of where she was supposed to be, where USADA knew she was gonna be, she would have gotten a Whereabouts failure. Again, one of the most responsible people that I've ever been around, goes to show that it's challenging and, you know-

Joe Rogan 30:46 So she has to notify where she's gonna be?

Jeff Novitzky 30:48 She ... We do it voluntarily-

Joe Rogan 30:50 (clears throat) Right.

Jeff Novitzky 30:50 ... just so we can talk knowledgeably to our athletes, so that when they say-

Joe Rogan 30:54 Oh, and just explain how it works.

Jeff Novitzky 30:54 ... "Hey, this is too hard." Or, you know, we say, "Well-

Joe Rogan 30:56 We do it.

Jeff Novitzky 30:57 ... we do it."

Joe Rogan 30:57 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 30:58 Yeah. "Here's, here's-"

Joe Rogan 30:59 That's interesting.

Jeff Novitzky 30:59 "... a little trick that I have to remind myself, you know, each day, where I said I'm gonna be at." Things like that.

Joe Rogan 31:04 Now, when you have a fighter like a Holly Holm, I think said she was tested nine times in preparation for this fight against Cyborg. When, when that happens, is there a ... I know you can't say when the test is gonna happen, 'cause it won't be random, but is there any consideration about the sleep cycle of the fighters?

Jeff Novitzky 31:23 Yeah, I mean that's, you know ... USADA never lets me know when a test is coming. I have zero input in terms of who's being tested, and that is the reality. A lot of times they show up 5:30, 6:00 in the morning-

Joe Rogan 31:35 That seems like-

Jeff Novitzky 31:35 ... show up.

Joe Rogan 31:36 ... it would really suck-

Jeff Novitzky 31:37 It-

Joe Rogan 31:37 ... for fighters.

Jeff Novitzky 31:37 There is no doubt about it.

Joe Rogan 31:39 (clears throat)

Jeff Novitzky 31:39 The bur- and they-

Joe Rogan 31:39 Is this just a urine? This is just a urine test?

Jeff Novitzky 31:41 Or it can be blood as well. I mean, imagine, you're dead asleep, 6:00 in the morning-

Joe Rogan 31:46 (clears throat)

Jeff Novitzky 31:46 ... someone's knocking at your front door. That's scary shit to begin with.

Joe Rogan 31:49 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 31:50 You go downstairs, you know, you're trying to get ready for a fight, prepare yourself sleep-wise, mentally, and you gotta have a needle stuck in you to get, to draw blood, wait til you gotta take a pee. Could be, you know ... some fighters wait hours. Um, you know, I don't think enough attention is being paid to the burden that's on the athletes and the credit they should be getting. A Holly Holm, I think ... I saw a s- a statistic that she's the most tested athlete since the inception of the program. I think she's around 32 or 33 samples that she's provided. I mean, that's crazy. Um, but that ... I, I think she should ... Not enough credit is given to her about-

Joe Rogan 32:27 Now, why do they test her so many times?

Jeff Novitzky 32:28 (clicks tongue)

Joe Rogan 32:29 Because she ... know ... I haven't heard any suspicions of her being dirty.

Jeff Novitzky 32:32 No, nei- neither have I and, you know, I think, as you look at the testing statistics, and that's another cool thing about this program, I don't know if you know that, but all these test numbers are publicly available. So the transparency in this program is unprecedented, unparalleled as it comes to professional sports. There's no other professional sport on the planet where you or I as a fan of the UFC could say, "Let me see how many times Holly's been tested, how many times Cyborg's been tested." That's unparalleled. Um, but if you look at those numbers, and I'll occasionally look at them, I think those athletes with staying power, those athletes that are at the tops of their division have more tests directed to them versus, you know, athletes at the bottom that are jumping in and out. They wanna make, I think, USADA good use of their resources to make sure that they're directing most of those tests to those athletes who are gonna be around for a while, and ... I mean, we saw what a badass Holly is on, on Saturday night. That woman's incredible. And, uh, you know, I think ... USADA probably realizes that too, and she's gonna be around for a while and wants to set, you know, an example. And I tell athletes a lot, I say, "Hey, wear this as a badge of honor." You know? I know it's a burden, but man, that makes you even more special of an athlete that you, you know, take that burden on and embrace it, and, and show the world that you're, you know, not only a badass athlete, but you're doing this clean.

Joe Rogan 33:51 And one of the things I thought was really fascinating about the UFC Performance Institute is that machine where you lie down and it scans your entire body, and it shows where your muscle imbalances are. And like, what, what are, what are all the different details that that thing focuses on?

Jeff Novitzky 34:05 Yeah, I mean, we talked about this when you toured it, but you gotta get, you gotta get some of the personnel from the PI in there that can really talk knowledgeably and have, you know-

Joe Rogan 34:13 Yes.

Jeff Novitzky 34:13 ... that education, experience but-

Joe Rogan 34:14 I wanna bring those guys in.

Jeff Novitzky 34:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:16 They're gonna come on. We're gonna-

Jeff Novitzky 34:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:17 We're gonna schedule that.

Jeff Novitzky 34:17 So, I mean, not only is that, as you saw, that facility, world-class, but they staffed it with the perfect world-class personnel. So that machine's called a DEXA scan, and, you know, I can't give it the justice that the personnel can, uh, there, but it, yeah, it measures body composition, so it'll measure, you know, fat, um, hydration levels, bone density-

Joe Rogan 34:38 Bone density?

Jeff Novitzky 34:39 Yeah. And that-

Joe Rogan 34:39 And how's it do, is it ... how's it doing that?

Jeff Novitzky 34:41 Some type of low-level x-ray. Uh, again, you gotta get those guys-

Joe Rogan 34:45 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 34:45 ... in there to describe it specifically. But, you know, and I'm, I'm sure it's a topic we'll cover today, the whole, you know, weight issue, being in the proper weight class and weight cutting. The, both the, the equipment and now the personnel is in place at the Performance Institute that there's no excuse for an athlete to not, A, find their wei- right weight class, and B, you know, safely, efficiently, you know, meet that weight goal, um, when they're fighting. Everything is in place now there for that.

Joe Rogan 35:13 Now, when a fighter comes to you guys and, and lies down on that machine and, uh, you read their hydration levels and say they're slightly dehydrated, and yet they're still 10 pounds above the weight class, how do you handle that?

Jeff Novitzky 35:27 So we have a, a director of sports nutrition, guy by the name of Clint Wattenberg, and, uh, Clint was a division one all-American at Cornell. Ivy League educated, smart as hell, uh, went on to wrestle with Team USA. He's actually wrestled with a lot of our fighters, I've had several conversations about, uh, with guys that, that wrestled him before Clint came here. So he's got, you know, a ton of, of pure respect for that. Um, super smart guy. But yeah, he works, you know ... he'd be the guy to ask. He's, you know, Ivy League educated, um, in sports nutrition, and in a, in i- a situation like that ...... yeah, he's, you know, giving advice to the fighters about how, the importance of hydration and trying to change that around so that they can meet those goals.

Joe Rogan 36:13 Yeah, there's the machine right there.

Jeff Novitzky 36:14 Yep.

Joe Rogan 36:14 Um, what is it called? Dual energy X-ray absorp- absorptiomtry. How do you say that?

Jeff Novitzky 36:23 We call it DEXA scan.

Joe Rogan 36:24 Absorptiomtry. That sounds like something that, like, someone would say in a cartoon, like a fake, a fake word.

Jeff Novitzky 36:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:30 It measures, uh, body composition, including lean mass, muscle tissue, fat mass, and bone density. Measuring and tracking all three of these components is important for weight, uh, class sport athletes and helps guide nutrition recommendations. Fascinating stuff. So, um, it just sort of scans over you? How long does that test take?

Jeff Novitzky 36:46 Uh, you know, I've never gone through it, or actually never seen it. I gotta get over there and check it out. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 36:51 What was interesting what Forrest was doing, Forrest Griffin was telling me that, uh, when he had it done, he found out that one of his legs has two pounds more muscle than the other leg, because he had had some knee injuries and he really had no idea.

Jeff Novitzky 37:01 Yeah, it's crazy.

Joe Rogan 37:02 (coughs)

Jeff Novitzky 37:02 I mean, so, so Forrest is a big part of that. Performance Institute was a big part of, you know, touring other facilities around the world. I think him and James Kimball, who's our VP of Operations at the PI, went to 61 or 62 facilities throughout the world and took what they believe were the best parts of these facilities and put them all to one. And Forrest's role there, um, is, you know, kind of similar to my role in the anti-doping program, an advocate for our athletes. He's there to make sure, as a former fighter, knowing what works and, and what doesn't work. Um ...

Joe Rogan 37:35 We're looking at a video of this thing right now and it looks like Star Trek. Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 37:38 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:38 Is it, is it saying anything, Jamie? At the very end it pans over and shows what shows up on the screen.

Jeff Novitzky 37:44 Wow.

Joe Rogan 37:44 There's a couple of, like, bunches of different, uh, data points. This is amazing. Visuals.

Jeff Novitzky 37:48 Yep. I mean, I talked to you, I thought maybe last week we can get you out there earlier, but you gotta come ...

Joe Rogan 37:51 I'm gonna next time.

Jeff Novitzky 37:52 ... next time in March.

Joe Rogan 37:53 Next time I'm gonna come day earl- tr- excuse me, a day early just to do this.

Jeff Novitzky 37:56 It'll put you through the whole thing. We get, you get your DEXA scan done, your body composition. You then have a meeting with Clint, talk about nutrition and goals. Maybe go see a physical therapist, talk about any, you know, issues you have and therapy you need. Go work out with our strength and conditioning coach, Bo Sandoval, put you through the, the wringers and the equipment there, um, then do a little recovery after. That, that will really give you the full experience.

Joe Rogan 38:20 Yeah, that place is amazing, how you guys got it set up. And it's, it's really, uh, a massive resource for fighters that if ... 'cause there's a lot of great gyms out there, but I don't think I've ever seen one that's that well-equipped. That you guys have everything. You have a complete strength and conditioning, uh, system, uh, area. Then you have a complete area for, with heavy bags, a cage, boxing ring, and then you have a complete recovery area. You have cryo machines, you have that, uh, what is that light machine?

Jeff Novitzky 38:53 Yeah, it's like low-level laser light therapy.

Joe Rogan 38:55 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 38:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:56 That l- looks like a giant tanning bed that you get in. And I, I've seen that thing before. And what is that supposed to do? It's supposed to somehow or another stimulate the blood flow to the area?

Jeff Novitzky 39:03 Yeah, work on, you know, recovery and, in the, at the cellular level. Again, you need to get these, this, these PI personnel in here ...

Joe Rogan 39:10 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 39:10 ... to, to explain it in detail.

Joe Rogan 39:11 You guys even have sleep pods, which I thought was the craziest thing ever. You ... so like if a fighter just has like an hour to chill, they can just get in there and recover and relax.

Jeff Novitzky 39:19 Yeah, I mean, the idea is you come to the Performance Institute ... Yeah, there they are.

Joe Rogan 39:23 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 39:24 And ...

Joe Rogan 39:24 Those are dope.

Jeff Novitzky 39:25 And I hear this all the time. They, they see the, the, the, the equipment, the personnel that's available to them. They see when it's time to unwind, that they have a room like this to relax in. They see they have free use of the cafeteria and custom-cooked meals. They don't want to leave the place. They're there all day long.

Joe Rogan 39:42 Whoa, Francis.

Jeff Novitzky 39:43 Francis Ngannou ...

Joe Rogan 39:44 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 39:44 ... lives, has lived there the last six months. There's a running joke in the office that Francis is constantly walking around the office in between workouts. It's like, "Francis."

Joe Rogan 39:53 (laughs)

Jeff Novitzky 39:53 "We gotta get you an office here somewhere now."

Joe Rogan 39:54 (laughs)

Jeff Novitzky 39:55 "What are you doing?"

Joe Rogan 39:56 Yeah, that's a guy ...

Jeff Novitzky 39:57 Incredible.

Joe Rogan 39:57 Let me-

Jeff Novitzky 39:57 He saw ... I mean, the dude moved to Los ... He saw the place and he moved up and moved everything he had. I don't think he knew anybody in Las Vegas or had-

Joe Rogan 40:06 No.

Jeff Novitzky 40:06 ... any friends there, 'cause he's, he's just walking around the office all day long when he's not at the PI.

Joe Rogan 40:10 From France.

Jeff Novitzky 40:11 From France.

Joe Rogan 40:12 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 40:12 Um ...

Joe Rogan 40:12 From another country. He said, "Perfect."

Jeff Novitzky 40:14 Exactly. But, you know, perfect example of seeing what that place could do for him. And that's available to every single fighter on the roster.

Joe Rogan 40:21 Yeah, I mean, there's nothing like it. And, uh, my prediction is that the UFC is going to be the hub where most people live. The only thing that's wrong there is the altitude. That's the only thing that's wrong. And I know you guys have a hypoxic room where you can stimulate or simulate a high altitude.

Jeff Novitzky 40:37 Yeah, I think 22,000 feet, yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:39 But isn't the way you're supposed to do it, you're supposed to work at sea level but sleep at high altitude? Isn't that how it's supposed to be done?

Jeff Novitzky 40:45 I think that's what it is.

Joe Rogan 40:46 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 40:46 Um, you know, what is Vegas, uh, 2500, 3000 feet? So it's ...

Joe Rogan 40:50 Is it even?

Jeff Novitzky 40:51 Yeah, I think it is.

Joe Rogan 40:51 Is it really? That's interesting.

Jeff Novitzky 40:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:52 I didn't even know it was that high.

Jeff Novitzky 40:53 I think it is, yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:55 I thought it was a little l- I thought it was like sea level 'cause it's like desert.

Jeff Novitzky 40:58 No, no.

Joe Rogan 40:58 No.

Jeff Novitzky 40:58 It's got a little bit of altitude.

Joe Rogan 40:59 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 41:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:00 I know Nevada has some good mountain areas, though, just outside where guys can run and do things like that.

Jeff Novitzky 41:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:06 Does, does the Performance Institute take people on any treks or anything like that?

Jeff Novitzky 41:10 Nah, I don't think we've gotten to that level yet. No.

Joe Rogan 41:12 Seems like that would be a good thing to do, right?

Jeff Novitzky 41:13 Could be.

Joe Rogan 41:13 Take them up to Red Rocks for runs.

Jeff Novitzky 41:15 There you go. That's a good idea.

Joe Rogan 41:16 Yeah.... I mean, I just think that if really high level coaches start moving there, and obviously we just lost one of the best, Robert Folles, which is a huge, huge loss, and what a great guy. And s-

Jeff Novitzky 41:27 Was gonna say, I mean, universally the nicest guy ever, always had a great demeanor.

Joe Rogan 41:30 Universally loved.

Jeff Novitzky 41:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:31 Very few people that are fight coaches that are universally loved.

Jeff Novitzky 41:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:34 And Robert really was. But, um, you know, Vegas has some good coaches, but I, I anticipate more and more gyms moving and relocating there and bringing fighters there. Because I just think high level fighters are gonna see that place and go, "How can I recreate this anywhere without fucking millions and millions of dollars?" 'Cause-

Jeff Novitzky 41:49 I, I think so. I mean, we'd love to see that happen. It's, you know, a good, low-cost, relatively low-cost of living area, um, so it's a place that affordable and, uh, yeah. I think if you spend a little bit of time at the PI and see what you can do, what it can do for you as a UFC athlete. I think the other-

Joe Rogan 42:03 And just when I was ... Oh, go ahead.

Narrator 42:04 Sorry.

Jeff Novitzky 42:04 I think the other cool thing, and I know Duncan French, he's ... Dr. Duncan French, he's our VP of performance, um, there. And, uh, which he explained a little bit to you about is that not only are we looking to influence the UFC athlete, but also influence positively MMA, the whole, the entire sport. And what you're seeing is UFC athletes can come in there and use it, but they can also bring along with them training partners, coaches. And, you know, we're only seven or eight months into this, but what we've already seen is, you know, training ideas, proper nutrition, going back out to these gyms, not only across the US but across the world. So, we definitely hope to be a positive influence throughout all of MMA and, and really, really grow this sport.

Joe Rogan 42:52 Yeah, I saw that with Bobby Green. Bobby Green, who was there, brought a couple of his training partners.

Jeff Novitzky 42:56 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:56 Uh, and just on a random day. Wilson Rees was there, Angela Hill was there, there's, uh, quite a few fighters there.

Jeff Novitzky 43:01 It's the coolest thing ever. I love ... And I'll, I'll go over there when I'm in the office multiple times a day just to see who's in there that day.

Joe Rogan 43:07 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 43:07 And have, you know, that five, ten minute conversation with a Wilson Rees that he knows me going forward in the future, "Ah, Jeff's a cool guy." And when that medication or supplement question comes up, he, he's talked to me before, he knows who I am. He's not afraid to pick up the phone and ask me that question versus, "Hey, this Golden Snitch character. I don't know."

Joe Rogan 43:26 (laughs)

Jeff Novitzky 43:27 "I don't know who this guy is. I'm not gonna call him or trust him." It's a big part of what I do, is try to develop those, that trust. So thanks to Shaw for setting me back about two and a half years worth of work-

Joe Rogan 43:36 It's like, it's ... Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 43:36 ... of developing that trust, man.

Joe Rogan 43:37 It's a nickname that doesn't even make sense.

Jeff Novitzky 43:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:39 It literally doesn't make sense. But it's funny. Um, is there any other, uh, plans to expand or do more things with the institute?

Jeff Novitzky 43:47 There is. So, we didn't show you this, but there are other areas upstairs for that very reason. They thought about, hey, technology in a couple years, there may be new machines or devices that come on the line that we may want. So there is additional room for expansion there.

Joe Rogan 44:01 I talked to you guys and I talked to Duncan about a tank. About you guys getting tanks in there. Uh, s- sensory deprivation tanks. I think that would be massive. I know a lot of football teams are using them now, and it's starting to spread. Um, excellent source of magnesium because you're absorbing it through the skin. But just for relaxation and recuperation, I would be fascinated to see if you guys had those, like what kind of results you would get.

Jeff Novitzky 44:23 Yeah, I mean, it sounded to me, and I was there when you were talking about it, that Duncan was open to it and was talking about some research.

Joe Rogan 44:28 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 44:28 I think he said Ohio State University is conducting some research on the benefits of that, so.

Joe Rogan 44:32 I know there's tanks in Vegas now. I know there's a place in Vegas. So I'm sure whoever runs that tank thing is gonna reach out to me, so I want to get you in touch with them and h- just have you try it.

Jeff Novitzky 44:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:42 Just g- see if you ... You know, just, just to get a beat on it, 'cause it's a, it's a freaky experience. And it's really good for your body, just s- e- everything, like in your back will just sort of just loosen up 'cause you're at, essentially zero gravity. You're floating.

Jeff Novitzky 44:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:54 And it just, everything sort of pops and loosens up and it's amazing.

Jeff Novitzky 44:57 It's cool. I wanna try it. I saw yours a little bit ago. It was a little, little intimidating or scary and looking

Narrator 45:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:02 Yeah. My wife made me move it out of the basement. I had one in the basement.

Jeff Novitzky 45:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:06 And she's like, "People come over, they think you're a freak."

Jeff Novitzky 45:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:08 "Mm-hmm, they think I'm a freak." But, um, the idea behind it, I think, is pretty sound. And I think, um, there's a lot of benefits for it, uh, for fighters as far as concentrating on technique as well. I think it's an amazing place to focus on strategy and game plans and movement and things along those lines where you can visualize.

Jeff Novitzky 45:26 One of the most amazing things with this sport, and I, you know, coming over to the UFC, I, I'd call myself a fringe fan. I mean, I would follow it a little bit, but I'm, I'm hook, line, and sinker into the sport now. And the most remarkable thing I find about the sport is the mental game. It is (laughs) the most incredible mental game of any athlete in any sport in the world. When you're walking out into an octagon and facing one of the baddest mixed martial artists in the, in, on the planet. And, you know, I know you've seen a ton of fights over your career, but I think one thing that, that I've seen in the two and a half years that you may not is that progression through fight week. So when I go out to these events or events are in Vegas, I'm there check-in day, Monday or Tuesday of fight week. And typically when we're on the road, I'm there, you know, every day in the same hotel. I'm watching these guys and girls eat breakfast. I'm watching them at the gym prepare, try to make weight on Friday. I'm watching them Saturday morning with the prospect of the fight ahead of them. What an incredible mental journey it is-

Joe Rogan 46:30 Mm.

Jeff Novitzky 46:30 ... to know that you're about to get into, you know, a cage with one of the baddest fighters on the planet. And even if you win, probably come out, you know, with a little bit of damage. I mean, everything to, to fight night ... I mean, d- fight night, these, these athletes are in a locker room, typically with three or four other athletes. And especially if you're one of the last athletes on that card, one by one your locker mates are walking out and then coming back in. And you see, you know, damage on even the ones that win. And unlike other sports where you get out on the field and you warm up and you get a little sense of what the atmosphere is like-... these athletes are walking out, you know, into the lion's den seeing it for the first time, and the sensory, overwhelming sensory, uh, things that are going on when doing that, and to be able to, you know, control your emotions and- and you know, compete against somebody is just absolutely the most incredible thing that- that I've ever seen. I'm so amazed. And- and you know, very few of these fighters, and I talk to a lot of them, that doesn't get to them in some way or form. Um, that is, you know, I talk to Forrest often about that, and Forrest says... He equates it to if you'd never jumped out of an airplane, the whole time you're on the way up saying, "What the hell am I doing? This is crazy." And then, you know, when the bell rings and you start fighting, then it kind of calms down, you're back in your- your kind of zone. But just, what an incredible mental game this is, and I just have so much respect for our athletes because of what they have to go through and they're able to do it time and time again, and control those emotions.

Joe Rogan 48:04 You bring up an important point, and, um, mental training is something that a lot of athletes have really concentrated on more over the last few years than I- I think, uh, ever that I can recall. And a lot of them bring in hypnotists and a lot bring in sports psychologists. Is there ever been any talk of bringing that to the Performance Institute?

Jeff Novitzky 48:21 Yeah, you know, I've talked- I talked briefly with Duncan about it, who has a, you know, a ton of- of, uh, resources in the athletic performance field and, um, so we've talked briefly about that. But, um, nobody on the staff, you know, currently. It's, you know, it- it's- it's kind of a give-and-take. Look, we want to provide all these resources to our athletes, but we also want them to retain their independence. I mean, you don't... If you notice in the Performance Institute, there's no MMA coaches there. So there's no striking, wre- wrestling coaches, jujitsu coaches, none of that. That's for the athlete to bring in because there needs to be some level of independence.

Joe Rogan 48:57 Right.

Jeff Novitzky 48:57 You don't want to train the entire roster, you know, the same way.

Joe Rogan 49:00 Against itself.

Jeff Novitzky 49:01 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 49:01 Yeah, yeah, exactly. It sounds like it would be.

Jeff Novitzky 49:03 I saw early on in my tenure here with UFC, I saw one of the most incredible things that- that I've ever seen, and I've only seen it once, but I saw a fighter show up fight night outside the locker room and basically said, "I don't want to go in. I don't want to do this," at the arena.

Joe Rogan 49:22 Really?

Jeff Novitzky 49:22 And, I mean, I was just blown away and, uh, actually Sean Shelby went up and thought it was awesome, had a great conversation with the fighter, said, "Look, you're not feeling anything that everybody doesn't feel. Every single fighter on the roster feels what you're feeling right now. You're just letting it get the best of you. You know, you're a badass fighter, you know, you've kicked ass before, you've gotten beat before. Uh, you know, what's the worst gonna happen? You're gonna- you're gonna get beat, you're gonna live through this thing. You're just letting it surface. Everybody feels what you're feeling." And for a second, you know, the fighter came back a little bit and then boom, left the arena.

Joe Rogan 50:00 Whoa.

Jeff Novitzky 50:00 Crazy. But I think that must enter into the head or the prospect of that, of every single person, every single fighter that comes to the arena, I'm sure there's just a little bit of that-

Joe Rogan 50:11 Oh, yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 50:11 ... in the back of the head, and it's just an incredible journey to see them mentally overcome, um, that amount of stress pre-fight, it's incredible.

Joe Rogan 50:19 That's why it's so interesting to see a guy like Conor who's so relaxed in there. It's kind of weird. You know, like when he does that rubber arm strut-

Jeff Novitzky 50:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:27 ... just walking around the cage? He's kind of like letting you know how he is dealing with this better than you are.

Jeff Novitzky 50:33 You know the one fighter that, uh... 'Cause I pay really close attention after having seen that early, pay really close attention just to see that fighter on the walk out. I like to sit, you know, pretty close to the cage and just look at that fighter's eyes and I- I tend to see a little bit of nervousness and fear in- in everyone, I think it's probably healthy. One person that sticks out, that I looked at, and I saw nothing in this dude's face. I saw like a little smirk, like he was so happy to be in there, and it's the first time I've seen this guy fight, um, and that's Justin Gaethje. When he fought Michael Johnson I remember looking, he walked in first and I was sitting on one side and he was on the other side of the cage, and was looking in his eyes and I had never seen him fight before, and I'm like, "Who the hell- who is this guy? He looks like he's happy to be in there, like this is, you know, some party he's at." And that fight was incredible.

Joe Rogan 51:22 Well, he's cra-

Jeff Novitzky 51:23 Wasn't it?

Joe Rogan 51:24 He's legitimately crazy. He said that getting knocked out by Eddie Alvarez is the greatest thing that ever happened to him in his life.

Narrator 51:28 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 51:29 Yeah, he's a different breed.

Joe Rogan 51:30 (sighs) Yeah, well he's got a mindset, and that mindset is, "I'm coming to go to war." And he said it when he got signed, he said, uh, "Over the next couple of years, I'm gonna get knocked out."

Jeff Novitzky 51:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:40 "Someone's gonna knock me out." He goes, "But I'm gonna knock a lot of people out and I'm- I'm gonna break people." You know?

Jeff Novitzky 51:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:46 "And the only way to stop me is to shut me off." And he goes, "I'm human, I can be shut off." That's-

Jeff Novitzky 51:50 I want to watch that guy fight every time I watch MMA.

Joe Rogan 51:52 Every time! Every time. Yeah, it's mean- that's an incredible mindset, and I don't know if you can teach that. I think... A lot of people say you can't teach mental strength, and I don't... I think that's horse shit. I think you can teach everything. I think the mind, um, can be, uh, can be trained. I mean, this is what they do in boot camp, right?

Jeff Novitzky 52:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:12 And it works to varying degrees of success. I think the mind can be trained, it's just a matter of what's your baseline? Where are you coming in at? Are you a total scaredy cat?

Jeff Novitzky 52:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:21 Or are you a pretty stoic, rugged dude to begin with? And what can they do? And maybe- maybe you're too stoic. Maybe you're- you're too non-emotional and you're too non-vulnerable and you- you're delusional in your perceptions.

Jeff Novitzky 52:34 It's amazing seeing the different ways that different athletes deal with it. So Saturday night, I'll give you a perfect example. So fight night, um, you know, Ussat is the one doing the testing. A lot of times fight night there's not a lot going on. In my world, I'm there to put out fires, in case something does go on. I like to watch the fights close, um, just to see those things we're talking about here, so... But occasionally I'll- I'll pop in backstage just to make sure everything's going good. So I walked back there before the- the Holly-Cyborg fight, and so Holly was out in the hallway, um, getting ready, you know, to do that long walk for the championship bout, and she was there for probably about 10 minutes, camera's getting ready and she was doing that Holly...... pacing back and forth, jamming her-

Joe Rogan 53:19 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 53:19 ... hands together, firing herself up. And she did it for a good 10 minutes back there. And then you see once she gets out in the cage, she was the first one in there, pacing back and forth for 10 minutes, right? Hitting the hands together. Every s- between every single round, she'd get off that stool, back and forth pacing, hitting the hands together. That's the way she fired herself up. See Carla Esparza walk out? She walks out with like zero emotion on her face. Like, is this girl ready to go? She gets in the cage, walks over to one side and just stands there.

Joe Rogan 53:49 (laughs)

Jeff Novitzky 53:49 Doesn't bounce around at all. But, you know, hey, you see both- both of them, you know, can have success doing that way, dealing with it, you know?

Joe Rogan 53:57 Yeah, it's a matter of what-

Jeff Novitzky 53:57 In different ways. It's amazing to see it.

Joe Rogan 53:59 There's a groove that they get into. They get, they get in a comfort zone. They're just like, "This is what I do every time I compete." And everybody's just different. And, uh, you know, some people don't like to bounce around, but I remember when Holly did that during the Ronda Rousey fight. I remember how ... And I was looking at her, I'm like, "This girl's got some legs."

Jeff Novitzky 54:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:17 I was like, I'd seen her fight before and I knew that she was-

Jeff Novitzky 54:19 And some stamina.

Joe Rogan 54:20 ... an amazing fighter, yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 54:20 I mean, between the 10 minutes backstage before she walked out-

Joe Rogan 54:24 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 54:24 ... the five minutes after she was in the cage and Cyborg was walking out, the 10 or 15 seconds between every round, she probably, you know-

Joe Rogan 54:32 Ran a couple of miles. (laughs)

Jeff Novitzky 54:33 ... yeah, the equivalent of a couple extra rounds and she was, you know-

Joe Rogan 54:35 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 54:35 ... she was as fresh at the end as she was in the beginning. Tremendous cardio on that girl.

Joe Rogan 54:39 Well, Jackson's camp, you know, that Michael, uh, uh, excuse me, uh, Greg Jackson and Mike Winkeljohn camp-

Jeff Novitzky 54:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:46 They, they spend a lot of time working on endurance training and strength and conditioning, and they do a lot of hill running. You know, they have this famous mountain that they run.

Jeff Novitzky 54:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:54 That they all do. And just ... Holly's been known for not just her cardio, but like I said in the Ronda fight, her legs, the way she can move.

Jeff Novitzky 55:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:03 I, uh, that's one of the things that I thought was gonna be a big problem with her with Ronda, was like Ronda's gotta catch her.

Jeff Novitzky 55:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:08 You know, like the way she's bouncing and moving, I don't think Ronda can move like that. I'm like watching her bounce and move in that crazy kickboxing style that she'd had for all those years, her ability to do backflips and stuff, I'm like-

Jeff Novitzky 55:19 Yeah, she's really athletic.

Joe Rogan 55:20 She's a different, a different level of athlete.

Jeff Novitzky 55:22 Yep.

Joe Rogan 55:24 Yeah, but Cyborg was just too big. Too big, too skillful, too tough, all the above.

Jeff Novitzky 55:29 She, she showed a lot, she showed a lot of skill in that fight. I was, you know ... Her previous UFC fights, she was just kind of coming at people and-

Joe Rogan 55:35 Mauling them.

Jeff Novitzky 55:35 ... I thought she was really skillful in this fight.

Joe Rogan 55:37 Very. Very patient, too.

Jeff Novitzky 55:39 Yep.

Joe Rogan 55:39 You know? I mean, a, a lot of people want to say that she's just a brute, but she's not. Like she's, she's, she knows what her skills are-

Jeff Novitzky 55:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:47 ... which is big power and, and excellent Muay Thai, but she also administered that power. The way she delivered it was very skillful.

Jeff Novitzky 55:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:56 Very, very methodical, very professional. That was a, a workman-like performance.

Jeff Novitzky 56:01 It really was. It was interesting. I talked to somebody in her camp and they wanted to see a little bit more of that brute power come right at him. They, they thought she was holding back a little bit.

Joe Rogan 56:09 Mm-hmm.

Jeff Novitzky 56:09 Maybe a little too skillful. Um, but I thought it was great.

Joe Rogan 56:13 Well, they want us, her to stop, you know, uh, Holly, but d- d- you're running a r- risk of getting your head kicked.

Jeff Novitzky 56:18 Sure.

Joe Rogan 56:19 You know, you gotta be real careful with Holly. Holly pulls stuff out of her ass.

Jeff Novitzky 56:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:22 You know, like you saw in the Jermaine, Jermaine Deuandamie fight, you saw it in obviously the Ronda fight, she needs ... very sneaky. She knows how to ... Especially that left high kick, man. She knows how to sneak that sucker right in.

Jeff Novitzky 56:32 She does, that was, that was a great fight. Loved watching that fight.

Joe Rogan 56:34 Yeah. Yeah, the women's MMA, uh, talent level has risen and risen. And it, it is, I mean, I remember when it will, first came on the scene and Ronda was the champ and she was just kind of steamrolling these girls who really didn't belong in the ring with her. And now-

Jeff Novitzky 56:50 Yeah. It has. And, you know, interesting, bringing back to the Performance Institute, you know, I talk with guys a lot over there that what they're finding out is you need to train a female athlete in a much different manner than you train a male athlete. Um, you know, you see a lot of times when female athletes cut weight, difficult, difficulties they have cutting that weight because of, you know, menstrual cycles potentially, and you also see in a lot of cases a rebound effect where a, a female will fight, get down to weight, fight, and then bounce way back up-

Joe Rogan 57:20 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 57:20 ... and just lose the ability, the body's ability to regulate, where they'll be cutting down on calories, working out like crazy, and they're still putting on weight. Um, so I mean, I th- I think that's something that you'll see the Performance Institute doing is try to, to you know, figure out and then knowledgeably disseminate information about how to train the female athlete, that they may need a little bit more time off and recovery between fights than a male athlete will. But one thing I say time and time again is every time we have a female fight, they come to fight. And you often see cards that are, you know, kind of lagging a little bit and you look down on the list, you go okay, here comes a female fight, and boom, turns the card right around because, you know, inevitably they, they give ultimate maximum effort in there, and that's at least what I see.

Joe Rogan 58:07 Y- There's a lot of that. Well, there's the, the ta- (clears throat) excuse me, the talent level is, uh, rising, they're very hungry, and they're, they're looking to be that next person. They realize like, look, Ronda Rousey's gone.

Jeff Novitzky 58:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:19 No one has really filled her place. I mean, there's some very popular fighters, you know, like, uh, Rose Namajunas obviously now is gonna be one of the most popular fighters after the knockout of Ioana and Jędrzejczak. Cyborg's obviously very popular. But there's plenty of room for more. And they realize that, that look, this is the time to go for it.

Jeff Novitzky 58:35 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 58:35 And I just think that, you know, the women that get involved in fighting in the first place, it's not ... There's a lot of men that get involved in fighting that are not gonna fight after a while, but the women that get involved in fighting, they tend to be crazy.

Jeff Novitzky 58:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:48 Like in, in a good way. You know, like these are wild women, you know, like Kat Zingano-type characters. You know, they're just wild. And like when you watch them fight, I mean, you're, you're gonna see some chaos. I mean, they're, they're not gonna be playing it safe. They're g- they're gonna be going for it.

Jeff Novitzky 59:01 Yep. I love that about them.

Joe Rogan 59:02 Now, Cat is an interesting example because she was telling me the exact same thing that you were saying.

Jeff Novitzky 59:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:07 That with a lot of women, their body responds very poorly to the weight cut and then immediately wants to gain weight afterwards.

Jeff Novitzky 59:13 Yep.

Joe Rogan 59:14 Do you think that that's, uh, some sort of, uh, like an evolutionary feature because of their- the fact that they carry babies and mo- n- th- they need fat?

Jeff Novitzky 59:21 Yeah, I've thought-

Joe Rogan 59:22 And so their body freaks out.

Jeff Novitzky 59:23 I've definitely thought that, sure.

Joe Rogan 59:24 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 59:24 Um-

Joe Rogan 59:24 Like some sort of a response, like your body's like, "Hey, I don't know what this crazy person's doing, but we gotta put some fat on."

Jeff Novitzky 59:30 Absolutely. And that's, you know, that's something, again, going back to Performance Institute, that they're- they're d- they're diving deep into. And Clinton Wattenberg, especially on the nutrition side that, you know, seeing those endocrine profiles after a fight and, you know, what can you do both in cutting back and training, and, you know, through your- through your diet to help, you know, control and regulate that.

Joe Rogan 59:49 And Cat was telling me about a program that you guys were just- you were just mentioning briefly in San Diego-

Jeff Novitzky 59:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:56 ... where they're using some sort of magnetic frequencies on fighters that have had brain injuries. Like, what- what is this?

Jeff Novitzky 1:00:03 Yeah, well it was something that the Dr. Duncan French kind of brought into the mix here. Um, so previous to coming to UFC, he was Director of Sports Performance at University of Notre Dame, South Bend, Indiana. And, uh, they were looking into, um, you know, traumatic brain injury in football and possible therapy, um, and they came across a clinic in San Diego that was using this therapy, an FDA-approved device. It's basically low level magnet therapy. Um, in conjunction with that, they do some EKGs, a reading of the electrical waves in the brain. And, you know, uh, initially were finding that this therapy was bringing some of those readings back together. And, uh, I think very early, um, in- in the process of figuring out whether this can really work or not, but, you know, certainly what the UFC wants to be is ahead of the curve in terms of potential therapies out there for, um, you know, for treating the brain. Um, and so, uh, yeah, Cat's been going there for a while, and, um, you know, has s- she says she's experienced some positive results.

Joe Rogan 1:01:08 Yeah, she's- she told me she got some outstanding results. And what's interesting is there's been a ton of research and, um, studies done on transdermal stimulation, all these different, uh, ways to increase the- the brain's ability to learn. And, um, there was a Radiolab podcast on this. I think it was called something nine volt, see if you could find it. Nine volt something or another. But it basically detailed how they use this for a sniper simulation. (coughs) And what they did is they took this woman who was a reporter, um, they put her through this sniper simulation game, it's like a video game. She scored poorly and then, yeah, Nine Volt Nirvana, thank you Jamie.

Jeff Novitzky 1:01:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:47 And so then they attached these electrodes to various areas of her head.

Jeff Novitzky 1:01:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:53 And stimulated her brain with a small charge, and she went through the exact same thing. And she said it felt like the 20 minutes went by in 2 minutes and her- her score was perfect.

Jeff Novitzky 1:02:05 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:05 And this is being echoed throughout, like, many different people that have done tests on these var- And there's a lot of, like, home hacking where people are literally going to Radiolab and making their own setups.

Jeff Novitzky 1:02:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:18 But I'm curious to see if the UFC has looked into some of these things. Like, some- like, maybe perhaps there's a way you could stimulate the body's ability to learn certain techniques or, like, carve pathways by stimulating areas of the brain.

Jeff Novitzky 1:02:34 Yeah, man, another great reason for you to get Duncan in here-

Joe Rogan 1:02:36 (laughs) Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 1:02:36 ... 'cause he can talk real knowledgeably about this therapy. He told me when, at the University of Notre Dame, you know, they'd have- they've had football players that would, you know, have migraine headaches for long periods of time that underwent this therapy and in a matter of weeks they were- they went away. Um, when Donna and I visited the facility down in San Diego, they talked about, uh, employees of the facility bringing in their kids. A, kids that had some levels of autism that after this therapy were more engaging with people. They also talked about kids that had tests or finals coming up the day after, they go in for this therapy the night before and get- their test scores were improving-

Joe Rogan 1:03:15 Whoa.

Jeff Novitzky 1:03:15 ... as a result. Um, there was a lot of- they deal with a lot of special forces soldiers down in the San Diego area that have had traumatic brain injuries because of, you know, IEDs and, uh, have seen some success there. So, I mean, I think some real exciting potential there that, again, you know, the UFC wants to be at the forefront of and, you know, be the first to, you know, to suggest some of these things to our athletes. And, you know, potentially even looking getting some of these devices at the PI, um, and be able to treat some of our athletes there.

Joe Rogan 1:03:46 (clicks tongue) Yeah, that would be amazing. And I think that, uh, we're in an interesting time now where because so much research is being put on CTE and- and traumatic brain injuries that we're- we're looking at potential ways to mitigate those problems and maybe even rehab some of the issues that fighters are having.

Jeff Novitzky 1:04:04 Yeah, so, uh, one thing we didn't show you on your tour is, uh, we now make part of the onboarding process at the PI, the C3 logic testing, which is this, you know, 25, 30 minute neurocognitive test that came out of the Cleveland Clinic brain study. And it's an iPad based test. Um, it's a mix of memory, shape recognition, balance, you actually, you know, put the pad on your- onto a belt, you stand on this unstable surface and close your eyes, and it basically gives you measurements or readings after 25 or 30 minutes. And then, you know, over time you can compare those readings. If they're declining, maybe it's time to take a little bit of time off from- from training and fighting. Um, if they're staying stable, then, you know, maybe you know you're doing all right. The California Athletic Commission requires that for all fights. So, all fighters in any card in California, the Wednesday or Thursday before the fight goes through the C3 logic testing, all of it's uploaded to a cloud. So, you know, after a period of a couple years, um, a fighter can have access to some real objective data on, you know, what their neurocognitive capabilities are looking like.

Joe Rogan 1:05:11 That would be a great way to find out ... I mean, maybe one of the only ways to find out without a fighter decl- disclosing it, whether or not a fighter's been knocked out in camp. Because tha- that's a, a common occurrence that fighters get knocked out in camp in hard sparring-

Jeff Novitzky 1:05:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:27 ... and then a week, two weeks later have to fight, and their ability to take a shot is gone.

Jeff Novitzky 1:05:32 Sure. Yeah, it's interesting. You know, often asked about that and comparing it to other sports leagues, and the one thing I will say, you know, with MMA ... Now this is excluding things that are going on in the gym, but in a fight that's regulated by an athletic commission, I think MMA has some of the most conservative return-to-play policy, I know it does, of any sport wherein if you're an NFL quarterback and you get knocked out on a Sunday, yeah, you're in a concussion protocol, but they're trying to get you back playing probably the next Sunday or-

Joe Rogan 1:06:01 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 1:06:01 ... the Sunday thereafter.

Joe Rogan 1:06:02 Which is crazy.

Jeff Novitzky 1:06:03 A big concussion in MMA, as you know, is like a 45, 60 mandatory 45 days no activity, 60 days before you fight. I mean, we've seen suspensions out to six months mandatory medical suspension, so.

Joe Rogan 1:06:15 And some of them, I think, are very warranted. I mean, there's some brutal, brutal knockouts-

Jeff Novitzky 1:06:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:19 ... where you ... Like Alistair Overeem and Francis Ngannou, like I don't want to see Alistair fight next month. You know? I mean, I don't ... And here's a question about a guy like Alistair. Alistair, we, we looked it up one day on a podcast, has been stopped or knocked out somewhere in the neighborhood of 13 times in MMA, and then three times more in kickboxing. What, what's the number where you're like, "That's enough."

Jeff Novitzky 1:06:43 Yeah. I don't know the answer to that. Um, I know you talk with Alistair and-

Joe Rogan 1:06:48 It's crazy.

Jeff Novitzky 1:06:48 ... seems like he has wits about him. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:49 That's what's crazy. Alistair doesn't even seem remotely punchy.

Jeff Novitzky 1:06:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:52 I mean, he is ... And not only that, he doesn't seem deterred. Like it's crazy. Like he gets knocked out and he's like, "Well, we go back to the drawing board."

Jeff Novitzky 1:07:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:00 "And uh, we'll be better next time." Like-

Jeff Novitzky 1:07:02 I think it's an unknown now, but you also look at, you know, the UFC has been the largest contributor to the Cleveland Clinic Fighter Brain Health Study. So we, you know, made, I think, multimillion dollar commitment. Uh, we upped it once. Um, so yeah, we're looking to invest resources into finding out what those answers are, definitely, and be at the forefront of any innovative therapies that are out there, innovative, you know, testing that's out there. We want to be at the front.

Joe Rogan 1:07:27 Well, the, the issue with, uh, CTE is that you really can't test for it until after-

Jeff Novitzky 1:07:31 Never learning.

Joe Rogan 1:07:32 ... a fighter's dead.

Jeff Novitzky 1:07:33 Correct.

Joe Rogan 1:07:33 But haven't they recently figured out a way to test people while they're alive?

Jeff Novitzky 1:07:38 Yeah. And I've read some of that. I've also read that scientists arguing that, that, you know, that's bunk.

Joe Rogan 1:07:42 Infective.

Jeff Novitzky 1:07:42 And that's not right. So I don't know where we're at on that.

Joe Rogan 1:07:45 Mm. Yeah, because boy, it just seems like the- there ... I, I don't wanna ... And it also affects people differently, right? Depending upon what genes they have, some people, uh, are more predisposed to CTE.

Jeff Novitzky 1:07:59 Yeah. And that's, that's my understanding of it. Again, a lot of unknowns, but um, you know, I think that the UFC has shown, um, a dedication to, you know, contributing to areas where we can find out some of those answers.

Joe Rogan 1:08:11 Yeah. Um, like I know that you guys recently had Mark Hunt come to Vegas because Mark Hunt had talked about s- suffering damage from fights. And the UFC said, "You know what? We can't just hear him say that. We're gonna pull him off this card." And he was furious. And they said, "Look, like we love you, don't get it wrong, but we, we want, we want you to be safe. And you say that you're slurring your words." And then he changed it and said, "Well, it's after a few drinks." And then they went, "Okay, well come by and let's give you the full gamut of tests."

Jeff Novitzky 1:08:42 Yep. That's exactly what happened. And we're always gonna act out of an abundance of caution in, in a scenario like that.

Joe Rogan 1:08:47 And so now he's back on the roster and back with a, a fight schedule.

Jeff Novitzky 1:08:50 Yep. He's fighting in Perth in-

Joe Rogan 1:08:52 Yeah.

Jeff Novitzky 1:08:52 ... in February.

Joe Rogan 1:08:53 So when a guy says something like that, you just kind of have to, you ha- ... When a guy says, "I'm slurring my words. I've been, I've taken too much punishment." Like, okay, we got a red flag here. You have to, right?

Jeff Novitzky 1:09:04 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that happened. I look back to, I don't know if you remember when Cain was gonna fight, uh, at the end of last year.

Joe Rogan 1:09:10 Yes.

Jeff Novitzky 1:09:11 I think he came out a week or two previous saying, "Man, I'm in so much pain from this back issue, I'm having to use medical marijuana, CBD leading up to this fight. It's the only way I can train. I'm gonna have this surgery directly after the fight." Um, it was actually a Nevada commission that saw this and said, "Wait a second. If you're really in that much pain, like man, we can't, um, with good conscience, um, license you to fight." And sure enough, they didn't do that. And he ended up having the surgery and, uh, hopefully is back pretty soon. But it's been like a year now.

Joe Rogan 1:09:42 Yeah. He's a guy that is almost too tough for his body, or maybe is too tough for his body. If you watch Cain fight particularly early in his career when he is in his prime, you just couldn't believe the amount of endurance that a 240 pound man can have. The, the ... Just the pace that he would put on guys, and you'd see them just drowning-

Jeff Novitzky 1:10:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10:02 ... in that pace. But the only way you get ... I mean, you have to have some physical gifts cardiovascularly, and I think Cain will admit that he has some, uh, some natural cardio, but unbelievable work ethic and mental toughness. And that mental toughness also makes you push through injuries.

Jeff Novitzky 1:10:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:21 And pushing through injuries is how injuries become chronic, and that's how injuries become unmanageable and require surgery.

Jeff Novitzky 1:10:27 I mean, you would know. I've ... I mean, I was an athlete and went through my share of injuries, but you know, I played basketball and ran track and, and in those sports, you know, depending on your injury, you can control, I think, your exposure and protect your body. I mean, how do you do that in fighting?

Joe Rogan 1:10:41 You can't.

Jeff Novitzky 1:10:42 You can't.

Joe Rogan 1:10:42 You can't.

Jeff Novitzky 1:10:42 You know, you, you can't prevent certain positions that-

Joe Rogan 1:10:45 No.

Jeff Novitzky 1:10:45 ... your body are gonna be in. And if you're not completely healthy, you're gonna be probably exposed from whatever-

Joe Rogan 1:10:49 The only thing you can do-

Jeff Novitzky 1:10:50 ... little injuries you have.

Joe Rogan 1:10:51 ... is drill. I mean, if you are really injured and you have a good oppo- or a good, uh, training partner, you can drill on certain things and say, "Hey man, you just can't touch my shoulder." But there's no way you can spar and there's no way you could really prepare for a fight without-... h- really hard training. And hard training with, with injuries is virtually impossible. I mean, the, uh, I mean, with some injuries, you know what I mean? Some of them you can work around. There's ways to figure a way around things and that's one of the things that I found was really interesting also about the UFC Performance Institute is there's a lot