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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

JRE MMA Show #9 with Jeff Novitzky

Joe Rogan sits down with Jeff Novitzky, who is currently the Vice President of Athlete Health and Performance for UFC.

Joe RoganhostJeff Novitzkyguest
Jan 3, 20182h 19mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:02 – 3:26

    “Golden Snitch” nickname, and why Novitzky sees himself as an athlete advocate

    1. JR

      Four, three, two, one. Ladies and gentlemen, Jeff Novitzky.

    2. JN

      How are you, buddy? What's up, Joe? Doing good. You?

    3. JR

      I have to ask you. Do you mind the nickname the Golden Snitch?

    4. JN

      It's the first thing I was gonna bring up-

    5. JR

      (laughs)

    6. JN

      ... with you. This Golden Snitch bullshit.

    7. JR

      (laughs) I just wanna say, it's not my nickname, it's Brendan Schaub's. He came up with it 100% on his own.

    8. JN

      I was gonna ask you. It's all good, though.

    9. JR

      It's okay?

    10. JN

      It's all good. It's all good. So a couple funny stories about that. So I don't ... When did he come up with this, about a year ago?

    11. JR

      At least, yeah.

    12. JN

      So, so people in the office started coming up to me saying, "Hey, Golden Snitch." And I'm like-

    13. JR

      (laughs)

    14. JN

      ... wh- what the hell is that?

    15. JR

      (laughs)

    16. JN

      So I do a little research, I see something about Harry Potter, some character-

    17. JR

      (laughs)

    18. JN

      ... named there. I'm like, "What the hell does this have to do with me?" So about a month ago, somebody lets me know, "Hey, check out Wikipedia." So for whatever reason, there's a Jeff Novitzky Wikipedia page. You go to that page now, it says, says actually my formal name, Jeffrey John Novitzky, AKA The Golden Snitch.

    19. JR

      (laughs)

    20. JN

      So last week, Donna Marcolini, you know Donna.

    21. JR

      Yeah. (laughs)

    22. JN

      Um, long, 15-year employee of the UFC, now works with me, and talk about her a little later, is a great asset to what we're doing. She sends me a text, she says, "Check this out." So she's got one of those Amazon Echos, um, Alexa, I think.

    23. JR

      Yeah.

    24. JN

      So she says, "Alexa, who is Jeff Novitzky?" And Alexa's name says, "Jeffrey John Novitzky, AKA The Golden Snitch."

    25. JR

      (laughs)

    26. JN

      So thanks a lot, Schaub.

    27. JR

      (laughs) Oh, Schaub, what have you done? That's hilar- I love Donna. She's amazing.

    28. JN

      She's awesome. So-

    29. JR

      It's great that she's over there. She's so good.

    30. JN

      Yeah, I mean, you know about kind of her history.

  2. 3:26 – 4:15

    Donna Marcolini’s day-to-day impact: avoiding “landmines” like whereabouts and supplements

    1. JR

      Yeah, well, anyway, back to Donna. She's awesome, um, so I'm super psyched that she's with you. So what exactly does she do for you guys?

    2. JN

      Again, her ... You know, when I sat her down this summer, I said, "Look, your role here is gonna make sure that the athletes are successful under the program." And in a program like this, there's so many landmines, you know, whether it be making sure your whereabouts filing is at ti- is on time, making sure USADA knows where you're at so they can come do a collection from you at any time. Uh, making sure you make safe supplement choices. Making sure the medications you're taking are correct. So she, you know, works hard for all those things. I give you the prime example of what she brings to this program. So every three months, so every quarter, every single athlete on the roster is required to, to file what's called quarterly whereabouts.

    3. JR

      Can I pause right here?

    4. JN

      Yep.

  3. 4:15 – 6:33

    What USADA is, why UFC outsourced testing, and how program success is measured

    1. JR

      Just, just so, so this can be a standalone, if people don't know exactly what you do.

    2. JN

      Sure.

    3. JR

      (clears throat) Um, Jeff is in charge of making sure that all the UFC athletes are clean and free of performance-enhancing substances, and it was a huge issue, before you came along, a huge issue in the sport and, and continues to be in other organizations, particularly overseas. I mean, there's just rampant speculation about companies that literally encourage people to take steroids. It was always the case with PRIDE in Japan, that was one of the, the big things about PRIDE, Enson Inoue, who fought for them many times, came o- on the podcast and literally was saying, in the contract, in like capital letters, it says, "We will not test you for steroids." Like, they wanted everybody to take steroids. They... I had friends who went to fight over there, they told them to take steroids and move up a weight class. So it was always an issue in the sport that this was a dirty sport, air quotes, right? Um, but since you've come along, and since you guys started instituting this incredibly strict testing, we've seen some pretty radical changes. We've seen some amazing fights and amazing performances, and I don't think the performance level has dropped, in fact, I think it escalated and elevated rather, which is something that people were really concerned about. But one thing that we did see is some people that you suspected of doing stuff, their bodies radically changed. It was really ... I mean, that became a meme, pre-USADA and post-USADA. I mean, and there's some comedy memes out there because of it, because people's bodies changed so radically.

    4. JN

      Yeah, it's interesting, you know, the, the last time I was on, we talked about kind of the smell test, you know-

    5. JR

      Yes.

    6. JN

      ... looking at somebody and, you know, it, it's difficult to say definitively whether or not, you know, changes in bodies are due to that or not, but, you know, you can't...... help, but, but look at some of these pictures before and after USADA-

    7. JR

      Right.

    8. JN

      ... and think that's the case. That's something I always struggle with. How do you judge the success of a program? Um, you know, do you judge it on numbers of positive tests? I don't think that's necessarily the case. You know, maybe, maybe you're not catching everybody. Maybe there's no one to catch. Um, do you judge it on before and after pictures? I don't know. I mean, that, that could be, you know, one factor. I like to judge it a lot anecdotally. You know, a big part of my job is getting out and building relationships with our

  4. 6:33 – 12:13

    The “testosterone variance” graph: strongest objective evidence UFC anti-doping is working

    1. JN

      fighters, with managers, with coaches, and just, you know, chewing on their ear and, and, and figuring out what they're seeing and what they're hearing. And almost universally, the feedback I get from, from them is, "This is making a big difference." Um, you know, one thing I brought with me today, and really the coolest piece of data I think I've seen in any anti-doping program, are some really objective measurable statistics in the UFC anti-doping program. USADA, so USADA's the United States Anti-Doping Agency. They're the official anti-doping agency of the United States by an act of Congress. They're in charge of all drug testing for US Olympic sports. Uh, back in 2015, we made the decision to outsource the administration of our program to USADA. The primary reason being the independence factor. Um, you know, when you look at all these other professional sports leagues, some have, you know, better programs than others. None really have any independence in the administration of that program. And what that means is, there's no way of telling whether or not, um, you know, when an athlete is sanctioned, it's done for business reasons or done for favoritism. So in our program, you know, no one can say that, that any of the administration of our program is done for that reason. It's a truly independent authority. So what USADA did recently is they went back, and they've been in existence since I think about 2001 on the US Olympic level. They went back and took a look at every single doper, uh, I think for steroids. Everyone was caught for steroids in the existence of the USADA program. And took a look at each of those athletes' biological passports and biological markers, and they looked at what was the most common factor for the doper versus, you know, the non-doper. And what they determined was what stood out the most was large variance in testosterone excretion in the urine. And when you think about it from a common sense point of view, that, that kind of makes sense, in that someone who's using steroids at that time presents a sample. Their testosterone excretion is probably gonna be on the higher end, and if they were to catch a doper on an off-cycle, what happens when you get off steroids is your body suppresses production of testosterone. So in that case, you're gonna see a very low excretion of testosterone. So they looked at that and plotted it out and saw, "Hey, every doper has a, a very large variance in testosterone excretion." Then what they did is they took all the UFC samples and they plotted them out by quarter, and I actually brought a graph along with me. And it's some really drastic, I think, visual evidence of the success and the impact of this program. And I don't know if you can throw that up now-

    2. JR

      Yeah, why don't you pull it up.

    3. JN

      ... and take a look at it.

    4. JR

      Pull that up. (clears throat) Um, y- so what, what year exactly did, uh, USADA take over?

    5. JN

      Yeah. So we came... USADA came into play July of 2015. So USADA's been in existence for two years.

    6. JR

      (clears throat)

    7. JN

      So you see here, um, that first quarter, quarter three of 2015, a pretty decent variance there, um, which means in any given test an athlete, you know, was up on an average a little bit above 30, um, a little, you know, in the mid-20s. And then look at, as you plot out that graph, uh, that variance becomes smaller and smaller and smaller and more in the, the medium range as it gets out to, you know, quarter three of 2017.

    8. JR

      That's very interesting.

    9. JN

      You don't, you don't ... This is, uh, you don't usually see statistics. This is the first... You know, I've been involved in anti-doping world since 2002, and I can unequiv- equivocally say that this is the strongest visual, objective, measurable evidence of success of a program that I've ever seen.

    10. JR

      Well, one of the things that's so fascinating about this, and, um, this, this goes to, this goes to credit to the UFC 100%, is that they decided to do something about this. They didn't have to. This wasn't like, uh, someone coming after them because, uh, you know, so many people had been caught and someone said, "Hey, we're gonna put a program on you guys to make sure you're not doping." No. The UFC said, "We gotta clean this up, and there's, there's only one way. The w- the one way is to go with the very best testing possible, and the most rigorous, the most... I mean, ch- check in everywhere you go. We're gonna give you random tests at six o'clock in the morning, knock on your door." Like, the whole, the whole full gamut of tests. And the results have been pretty amazing. And that alone, s- that speaks volumes when you see the size of the variance between the, uh, the tests when you guys first started-

    11. JN

      (clears throat)

    12. JR

      ... versus now.

    13. JN

      Definitely. Hey, you know, it, it's a credit to two people, Lorenzo Fertitta and, and Dana White that, you know, made that decision. That's a, a hell of a risky decision, but done for all the right reasons. You know, anybody that contends that, you know, Dana doesn't care about his athletes need look no further than this program. This program is of tremendous risk to the company and to the bottom line. When you're testing athletes 365 days a year, unannounced, no predictability of when the test is coming, there can be some very severe consequences to-

    14. JR

      And there have been.

    15. JN

      There has been.

    16. JR

      We've lost several main events.

    17. JN

      There has been. I mean, UFC 200-

    18. JR

      (clears throat) Yeah.

    19. JN

      The land- arguably the landmark event in the history of the UFC, we lose our main event the Wednesday before UFC 200. Millions, if not tens of millions, into the marketing of that.... um, you know, the success of the pay-per-view probably hinges on that great main event between Jon and, and Daniel, and we lost it three or four days before, and that could happen at an- you know, at any given moment.

  5. 12:13 – 22:06

    Jon Jones case process: confidentiality, Turinabol detection, and sanction “starting points”

    1. JR

      Now, we talked about this before the podcast, um, what you could or could not talk about with the current state of Jon Jones' investigation. So, where's it at right now?

    2. JN

      Yeah, so, you know, generally, we don't talk about, um, a case. So, so, how the process works when an athlete tests positive-

    3. JR

      (coughs)

    4. JN

      ... USADA will notify me. Um, I usually pick the phone up right away and call Dana and let him know, and the UFC puts out an announcement. They say, you know, "In the case of Jon, Jon tested positive, uh, in an- in an in-competition test on this date." Um, you know, "More information will be provided at the appropriate time." That's generally all we'll talk about. Now, if the athlete chooses to talk about, you know, scenarios of w- of what happened, then they're free to do that. Um, at that point, USADA and the UFC can comment on it. So there's been some things talked about in the Jon case, um, by Jon. Um, particularly he had two clean tests on July 7th and July 8th before his positive test on, I think, July 30th, which was his weigh-in day. Um, and the positive test was for dehydrochloromethyltestosterone or oral Turinabol. Um, this is a substance that was used by the East Germans, um, regularly in the late '60s, and then came into the fold a little bit more, um, of what's come out recently, um, out of Russia. So, um, I know you had, uh, Bryan Fogel on for-

    5. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    6. JN

      ... for the Icarus movie, and I think he talked about- a little bit about this. Um, uh, Grigory, the head of the- the Moscow WADA laboratory, that- this drug became kind of part of his protocol, um, with his athletes. He then, ironically enough, developed a test for the long-term metabolites of the drug. So previous to that, the detection window of this drug was a couple of days, so it was a drug that, you know, even if you were on a strict program, an athlete may gamble with taking because it had a quick clearance time. After he discovered the long-term metabolite, um, test, that changed and went from a detecten- when- detection window of a couple of days to a detection window of several months. And this was widely known. You know, it wasn't a secret. Initially, they kept it quiet. They went back and retested some samples, and there was a whole, you know, bunch of positives, and then it got out 2013 around that there was this new test. So, right up front, you know, I've- I've said this a while now, is- would not make a lot of sense for an individual, a UFC athlete that knew, you know, especially, you know, a- a champion contender like Jon Jones that knew, "Hey, I'm tested quite regularly in this program," would not make a lot of sense that that would be your drug of choice if you were intentionally trying to cheat. Um, I think it's come out after the fact that, uh, USADA did another test on Jon, um, a month or two or a couple months after his positive test and he was negative during that test. So that would be indicative that, you know, the prohibited system entered his system- or the prohibited substance entered his system, you know, some time after July 7th or 8th and was likely, you know, a pretty small amount in that it cleared his system pretty quickly. Um, again, you know, who knows where it plays out, but certainly on the surface of things, I have said, you know, at this point in the game with that type of information out there, um, it- it wouldn't indicate intentional use. Now, that could be wrong. I don't know that definitively, and- and we'll see how this plays out. Uh, right now where the process is is Jon and USADA are working closely. Um, I'm aware that there was a meeting a week or two ago, a pretty lengthy meeting, which, uh, I was told was productive. Uh, I wasn't given details of what productive meant, um, but I think that's an important thing right now and that Jon's following through with is to retrace all of his steps between that, you know, Ju- last July 8th positive test and- or negative test and the positive test on July 29th or July 30th.

    7. JR

      It certainly seems like, uh, based on what you just said, that this is something that was accidentally taken. But if you can't prove that something was accidentally taken, like if you can't nail it down, what do you- what happens there?

    8. JN

      Yeah, it's- it's difficult. And that's- you know, that's kind of the nightmare scenario that a lot of- you know, that an athlete can face. And- and a big role of what Donna and I do to prevent that from happening to show them what type of care and consideration is needed to make sure you don't get into a scenario like that. You know, under a program like this, you have to be careful about everything that's put into your body. Um, everything. And, uh, if you're not, there can be, you know, severe consequences. Um, so yeah, we'll- we'll see where this plays out. I- I tell you the one thing that I- that I can say about this is, you know, this is obviously Jon's second time, um, in the program with testing positive, and- and the first time he went through a pretty lengthy, um, appeal process, and there was a publicly issued, uh, decision, 50, 60 pages that went through all the evidence that, um, that the independent, um, uh, arbitrators heard and- and decided on. And what they said definitively in that case was Jon- there was no evidence that Jon intentionally cheated, however, he operated with careless, reckless disregard. Um, so he ended up getting the maximum for that- for those substances he tested positive for, a year.

    9. JR

      And that was for some gas station Viagra-type shit.

    10. JN

      Uh, well, it was actually a couple of anti-estrogen drugs, but what was shown and what the evidence pointed to was that he took a pill, um, that was manufactured from a website by the name of All American Peptide. Uh, the pill was purported to be a Cialis, um, pill, so an erectile def- dysfunction pill that was tainted with these two drugs.

    11. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    12. JN

      Now, the problem that what the arbitrator said is if he would've gone to that website, and the arbitrators did and I did, you would've seen that that same website offered-... you know, tons of performance-enhancing- prohibited performance-enhancing drugs. And the website said, you know, "Not for human consumption, for research purposes only."

    13. JR

      (laughs)

    14. JN

      So it really was careless disregard. That being said, however, Jon's, you know, second time through the program now. The second sanction, this time for, you know, an anabolic-type steroid, would have, you know, a starting point, potentially, of a four-year suspension.

    15. JR

      That's a starting point.

    16. JN

      That could be a starting point, right.

    17. JR

      Unless-

    18. JN

      Unless there are mitigating factors. Now, I don't ... You know, again, the beauty of this program is it's not the UFC or not me deciding-

    19. JR

      Right.

    20. JN

      ... you know, what the sanction's gonna be. No one can accuse us of, you know, operating for business purposes or favoritism or whatever.

    21. JR

      Right.

    22. JN

      Um, but that being said, you know, when we put this program together and figured out, you know, what sanctioning would look like, I don't necessarily think (laughs) that we put up a four-year sanction, um, for a second-term offense when the first-term offense was shown that that person didn't cheat intentionally-

    23. JR

      Right.

    24. JN

      ... just operated with careless disregard. So-

    25. JR

      So, who makes that distinction then, USADA?

    26. JN

      USADA makes that distinction. They, you know, they have a whole team looking at it. They compare it to other cases under, you know, the WADA, uh, Olympic-type umbrella, similar cases. Um, I will say this, that, you know, I think we've had, uh, a few over 60, um, positive adverse events in this case, and those that have been adjudicated, I've been comfortable every time that they've made a fair and balanced and reasonable decision. And that's ... Part of my job is to be the eyes and ears for athletes, to make sure not only is the program being administered properly and has strength, but also that they're being treated fairly and that they have due process. So I have all the confidence in the world, however this does come out, that it will be the right decision. The other really cool thing about the program is the transparency of the program. So, you know, it won't just be me saying this. However it does come out, whether it goes to arbitration or whether Jon and USADA reach a settlement, it'll be well spelled out about why that sanction, uh, was determined.

    27. JR

      Now, you say starting point, meaning that it could p- potentially be more?

    28. JN

      It could. So, uh, when there's something called aggravating circumstances, so more than just knowingly taking the drug-

    29. JR

      Lying.

    30. JN

      ... taking the drug and lying, trying to cover it up, taking multiple drugs, one trying to hide the other, yeah, you could, you could get double, um, uh, the sanction amount. So, um, you know, on a second-time anabolic steroid, four years is kind of the starting point. You can go lower for mitigating factors. You can go higher for aggravating factors, up to eight years. Um, so yeah, I mean, it would, it would have to require something, you know, really severe and-

  6. 22:06 – 26:59

    Tainted supplements and strict liability: why some athletes still get suspended

    1. JR

      And there have been some guys that have gotten pretty low sentences, like Tim Means is a good example, right? Tim Means did take something that was, uh, tainted, and you guys or USADA g- got some of those samples from independent stores-

    2. JN

      Yep.

    3. JR

      ... found out those were also tainted.

    4. JN

      Yeah, Tim Means took a supplement. It was a creatine. Um, and, you know, after he tested positive ... And again, this is where Donna c- and I come into play quite a bit. You know, when athletes test positive, we reach out to them right away, saying, "Look, we're here to help you here, if there's help to be had. Uh, we'll believe you till you give us reason not to." Um, I did that with Tim. Tim said, "I'd never heard of the substance, Jeff. I ... You gotta believe me, I didn't take it." I said, "All right, well, let's start doing, retracing steps. What have you been taking?" Um, he sent me, you know, maybe a half-dozen supplements. Did some research on them, worked ... uh, reached out to kind of contacts I still have in the, in the industry from my law enforcement days and said, "Hey, any of these kind of raise suspicions?" And there was one that did, by a company that made some other kind of sketchy products. Um, we narrowed in on that one pretty quickly, sent it to USADA, to a WADA laboratory, tested it. Sure enough, it had the substance in it. Um, then what happens is USADA will independently procure some themselves. So, outside of the kind of touch of the athlete to make sure the athlete's not contaminating with it for-

    5. JR

      Right.

    6. JN

      ... a built-in excuse. They were able to get some that was sealed and unopened, and sure enough, it, it had that substance in it and had the same amount of the substance in it that kind of matched up with how much was in Tim's system and when he said-

    7. JR

      Hmm.

    8. JN

      ... he had taken it last. So, there's a lot of detective work that comes into it. And I get, I get this question a lot from fighters saying, "Hey ...... the, the supplement excuse is a bullshit excuse that, you know, there's athletes using stuff, and they have supplements in their closet that they know is, are tainted. And then boom, if they test positive, they just have that built-in excuse. And what I tell them is, it, it goes deeper than that. There's literally detect- scientific detective work that's going on from the USADA side, making sure everything matches, making sure they independently procure the product, making sure what turns up in the athlete's system, based on when they say they were taking it, matches exactly the level that's in the product based on, you know, metabolism, uh, timings. So it's much more than that. And I, I do have a lot of confidence when USADA says, "Hey, it does match that this is, you know, came from an unknowingly or unintentional ingestion," that it really is that.

    9. JR

      Now, with, in a case like Tim Means, why is he suspended?

    10. JN

      Yeah.

    11. JR

      If, if someone does give him a tainted supplement and he takes it in good faith, thinking that it's just creatine?

    12. JN

      Right. So, so there's strict liability in the program, and you know, they look at all the factors. So, you know, creatine is a relatively low risk product. However, the creatine Tim took was not third-party certified. And that, you know, get a lot of questions about, "Man, this supplement industry is dangerous," and, you know, "This sucks for a- for athletes. There's nothing they can do." There is something that you can do, and it's actually pretty simple to do. Um, we were talking earlier about, uh, about Onnit, um, a company you're involved with, and, and you guys third-party certify a lot of your product. And what that means is, you, um, outsource random testing of the product and sampling of the product, um, from these independent companies to make sure they contain no prohibited substances. And, you know, what Don and I educate our athletes to is, you can go to these third-party certification companies. I think you guys use Catlin's group.

    13. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    14. JN

      Banned Substance Control Group. There's that group. Um, there's Informed Choice. Um, there's NSF for Sport.

    15. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    16. JN

      And you can go to their websites, and they have lists of all certified products, and there's hundreds of them. So there's-

    17. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    18. JN

      ... there's no excuse that you can't find as, you know, a UFC athlete, products that are tested and independently certified as banned-substance free. And if it were the case, and it's not saying that it couldn't happen, because those companies aren't testing every single bottle of product, but if you're an athlete, you take a third-party-certified product, you record it, you log it, and it turns out to be from that product, I think then you're reaching, you know, a level where the mitigating factors maybe do get you down to no sanction, you know, a public warning or something, "Hey, you know, maybe you shouldn't use supplements at all," type of thing.

    19. JR

      Right. So his error was just taking something that was not third-party certified?

    20. JN

      Correct, and just not doing his homework-

    21. JR

      So wait a ...

    22. JN

      ... on the company.

    23. JR

      He got like six months off-

    24. JN

      There is a responsibility to that.

    25. JR

      ... or something like that?

    26. JN

      Yeah, six months.

    27. JR

      Which seems like a lot, but in reality, most fighters, it's really, he's really only got about three months off, 'cause most fighters after a fight are gonna take a few months off anyway.

    28. JN

      Probably. I mean, it seems harsh, but there is, there is, uh, an obligation that fighters need to do their homework, and you need to have a bit of a deterrent there to make sure they do it. And, and that's that deterrent.

  7. 26:59 – 33:51

    Whereabouts compliance and the burden of random testing (plus why top fighters get tested more)

    1. JR

      Now, one of the things that I thought was really cool about the UFC Performance Institute, which is just, that's, uh, there's so much cool about that place, but one of the things that was really cool is that you guys have a station where an athlete can go in and check any sort of substance, any cold medication they're taking, anything, type in the name of it, and it'll tell you on this, like, giant tablet whether or not what you're taking is banned.

    2. JN

      Yeah. So it's, it's a kiosk. So it's a USADA kiosk, and we have like a little iPad in there, and it's between the locker rooms and the recovery room. So it's, you know, you got your hot-cool and your col- cold pool, um, and your sauna and your cryo and all that stuff. So it's a constant reminder as our athletes are in that flow between that area, 'cause they all walk through there every day, that USADA's a part of this sport, that we're a clean sport, that you have an obligation to check on medication, supplements, and you have an obligation to file your whereabouts. They can also file whereabouts at that kiosk. And we get athletes all the time walking down that corridor saying, "Oh, shit, forgot to tell USADA. Flew out to Las Vegas at the PI." Boom, they can get on in a minute or two and update where they're at. So ...

    3. JR

      Do you guys have an app?

    4. JN

      They do. So, um ...

    5. JR

      So they can update by a app?

    6. JN

      Yep.

    7. JR

      That's great.

    8. JN

      So it's on your phone as well. So every quarter, athletes are required to get on, uh, through a web browser, what's called the quarterly USADA whereabouts filing. They usually have to watch an instructional video, most of the time reminders about smart supplement choices, um, things like that. And then they tell USADA where they're gonna be for the next three months. And most of the time, hey, I mean, I do, Don and I do the whereabouts filing as well, and we both say, "Hey, who knows where I'm gonna be next week, yet alone two, three months from now?" But you make your best guess at it, and then all that information you put, uh, through the web browser is downloaded to your mobile phone app. So that as your plans change over the next, you know, couple weeks, couple months, you can do 45-second to one-minute updates through your mobile app. Um, so the convenience is there. There's really, you know, no excuse and, and not letting USADA know, um, where you're at. S- There are repercussions if you don't let them know where you're at, um, because you wanna avoid somebody, you know, ducking and dodging a test. But-

    9. JR

      I know Cowboy had a situation where he was actually in Vegas at the fights, and they were mad at him 'cause he didn't say that he was gonna be in Vegas. He's like, "I'm at the fucking fights."

    10. JN

      Yeah. (laughs)

    11. JR

      "I'm right here. I'm on TV."

    12. JN

      Don and I do everything we can to try to let USADA know when we know that a fighter has a UFC obligation. So whether they're a guest fighter on the road, whether they're, you know, at a competition, we're always passing that information along to USADA. But we also tell them that ultimately, it's, it's your responsibility as an athlete. We'll try to, but, you know, we can't guarantee it ultimately is gonna fall on you if you don't update. Now, the good thing about this is you're afforded a couple mistakes under the whereabouts program. So it's not until three whereabouts failures in any rolling 12-month period that there can be sanctions because honestly, I mean-... things happen in your life, everybody's human, sometimes you forget. I'll give you the perfect example. So again, getting back to Donna, the most, um, attention to detail person that I've ever worked with in my working career. She comes over, joins, kind of, our program here. We get her signed up for Whereabouts. She's like, "This is great," like, "I can talk knowledgeably about how to do this." We went out to Anaheim for UFC ... f- ... I forget what number that was. Um, we take a trip down from Anaheim to San Diego. We went down to this clinic he- uh, that we were checking out for brain therapy. She forgot to update that she was going to San Diego. She was more than two hours outside of where she was supposed to be, where USADA knew she was gonna be, she would have gotten a Whereabouts failure. Again, one of the most responsible people that I've ever been around, goes to show that it's challenging and, you know-

    13. JR

      So she has to notify where she's gonna be?

    14. JN

      She ... We do it voluntarily-

    15. JR

      (clears throat) Right.

    16. JN

      ... just so we can talk knowledgeably to our athletes, so that when they say-

    17. JR

      Oh, and just explain how it works.

    18. JN

      ... "Hey, this is too hard." Or, you know, we say, "Well-

    19. JR

      We do it.

    20. JN

      ... we do it."

    21. JR

      Right.

    22. JN

      Yeah. "Here's, here's-"

    23. JR

      That's interesting.

    24. JN

      "... a little trick that I have to remind myself, you know, each day, where I said I'm gonna be at." Things like that.

    25. JR

      Now, when you have a fighter like a Holly Holm, I think said she was tested nine times in preparation for this fight against Cyborg. When, when that happens, is there a ... I know you can't say when the test is gonna happen, 'cause it won't be random, but is there any consideration about the sleep cycle of the fighters?

    26. JN

      Yeah, I mean that's, you know ... USADA never lets me know when a test is coming. I have zero input in terms of who's being tested, and that is the reality. A lot of times they show up 5:30, 6:00 in the morning-

    27. JR

      That seems like-

    28. JN

      ... show up.

    29. JR

      ... it would really suck-

    30. JN

      It-

  8. 33:51 – 45:26

    Inside the UFC Performance Institute: DEXA scans, recovery tech, and athlete development

    1. JR

      And one of the things I thought was really fascinating about the UFC Performance Institute is that machine where you lie down and it scans your entire body, and it shows where your muscle imbalances are. And like, what, what are, what are all the different details that that thing focuses on?

    2. JN

      Yeah, I mean, we talked about this when you toured it, but you gotta get, you gotta get some of the personnel from the PI in there that can really talk knowledgeably and have, you know-

    3. JR

      Yes.

    4. JN

      ... that education, experience but-

    5. JR

      I wanna bring those guys in.

    6. JN

      Yeah.

    7. JR

      They're gonna come on. We're gonna-

    8. JN

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      We're gonna schedule that.

    10. JN

      So, I mean, not only is that, as you saw, that facility, world-class, but they staffed it with the perfect world-class personnel. So that machine's called a DEXA scan, and, you know, I can't give it the justice that the personnel can, uh, there, but it, yeah, it measures body composition, so it'll measure, you know, fat, um, hydration levels, bone density-

    11. JR

      Bone density?

    12. JN

      Yeah. And that-

    13. JR

      And how's it do, is it ... how's it doing that?

    14. JN

      Some type of low-level x-ray. Uh, again, you gotta get those guys-

    15. JR

      Right.

    16. JN

      ... in there to describe it specifically. But, you know, and I'm, I'm sure it's a topic we'll cover today, the whole, you know, weight issue, being in the proper weight class and weight cutting. The, both the, the equipment and now the personnel is in place at the Performance Institute that there's no excuse for an athlete to not, A, find their wei- right weight class, and B, you know, safely, efficiently, you know, meet that weight goal, um, when they're fighting. Everything is in place now there for that.

    17. JR

      Now, when a fighter comes to you guys and, and lies down on that machine and, uh, you read their hydration levels and say they're slightly dehydrated, and yet they're still 10 pounds above the weight class, how do you handle that?

    18. JN

      So we have a, a director of sports nutrition, guy by the name of Clint Wattenberg, and, uh, Clint was a division one all-American at Cornell. Ivy League educated, smart as hell, uh, went on to wrestle with Team USA. He's actually wrestled with a lot of our fighters, I've had several conversations about, uh, with guys that, that wrestled him before Clint came here. So he's got, you know, a ton of, of pure respect for that. Um, super smart guy. But yeah, he works, you know ... he'd be the guy to ask. He's, you know, Ivy League educated, um, in sports nutrition, and in a, in i- a situation like that ...... yeah, he's, you know, giving advice to the fighters about how, the importance of hydration and trying to change that around so that they can meet those goals.

    19. JR

      Yeah, there's the machine right there.

    20. JN

      Yep.

    21. JR

      Um, what is it called? Dual energy X-ray absorp- absorptiomtry. How do you say that?

    22. JN

      We call it DEXA scan.

    23. JR

      Absorptiomtry. That sounds like something that, like, someone would say in a cartoon, like a fake, a fake word.

    24. JN

      (laughs)

    25. JR

      It measures, uh, body composition, including lean mass, muscle tissue, fat mass, and bone density. Measuring and tracking all three of these components is important for weight, uh, class sport athletes and helps guide nutrition recommendations. Fascinating stuff. So, um, it just sort of scans over you? How long does that test take?

    26. JN

      Uh, you know, I've never gone through it, or actually never seen it. I gotta get over there and check it out. I don't know.

    27. JR

      What was interesting what Forrest was doing, Forrest Griffin was telling me that, uh, when he had it done, he found out that one of his legs has two pounds more muscle than the other leg, because he had had some knee injuries and he really had no idea.

    28. JN

      Yeah, it's crazy.

    29. JR

      (coughs)

    30. JN

      I mean, so, so Forrest is a big part of that. Performance Institute was a big part of, you know, touring other facilities around the world. I think him and James Kimball, who's our VP of Operations at the PI, went to 61 or 62 facilities throughout the world and took what they believe were the best parts of these facilities and put them all to one. And Forrest's role there, um, is, you know, kind of similar to my role in the anti-doping program, an advocate for our athletes. He's there to make sure, as a former fighter, knowing what works and, and what doesn't work. Um ...

  9. 45:26 – 59:56

    Fighting’s mental game: fight-week psychology, fear management, and different “readiness” styles

    1. JN

      One of the most amazing things with this sport, and I, you know, coming over to the UFC, I, I'd call myself a fringe fan. I mean, I would follow it a little bit, but I'm, I'm hook, line, and sinker into the sport now. And the most remarkable thing I find about the sport is the mental game. It is (laughs) the most incredible mental game of any athlete in any sport in the world. When you're walking out into an octagon and facing one of the baddest mixed martial artists in the, in, on the planet. And, you know, I know you've seen a ton of fights over your career, but I think one thing that, that I've seen in the two and a half years that you may not is that progression through fight week. So when I go out to these events or events are in Vegas, I'm there check-in day, Monday or Tuesday of fight week. And typically when we're on the road, I'm there, you know, every day in the same hotel. I'm watching these guys and girls eat breakfast. I'm watching them at the gym prepare, try to make weight on Friday. I'm watching them Saturday morning with the prospect of the fight ahead of them. What an incredible mental journey it is-

    2. JR

      Mm.

    3. JN

      ... to know that you're about to get into, you know, a cage with one of the baddest fighters on the planet. And even if you win, probably come out, you know, with a little bit of damage. I mean, everything to, to fight night ... I mean, d- fight night, these, these athletes are in a locker room, typically with three or four other athletes. And especially if you're one of the last athletes on that card, one by one your locker mates are walking out and then coming back in. And you see, you know, damage on even the ones that win. And unlike other sports where you get out on the field and you warm up and you get a little sense of what the atmosphere is like-... these athletes are walking out, you know, into the lion's den seeing it for the first time, and the sensory, overwhelming sensory, uh, things that are going on when doing that, and to be able to, you know, control your emotions and- and you know, compete against somebody is just absolutely the most incredible thing that- that I've ever seen. I'm so amazed. And- and you know, very few of these fighters, and I talk to a lot of them, that doesn't get to them in some way or form. Um, that is, you know, I talk to Forrest often about that, and Forrest says... He equates it to if you'd never jumped out of an airplane, the whole time you're on the way up saying, "What the hell am I doing? This is crazy." And then, you know, when the bell rings and you start fighting, then it kind of calms down, you're back in your- your kind of zone. But just, what an incredible mental game this is, and I just have so much respect for our athletes because of what they have to go through and they're able to do it time and time again, and control those emotions.

    4. JR

      You bring up an important point, and, um, mental training is something that a lot of athletes have really concentrated on more over the last few years than I- I think, uh, ever that I can recall. And a lot of them bring in hypnotists and a lot bring in sports psychologists. Is there ever been any talk of bringing that to the Performance Institute?

    5. JN

      Yeah, you know, I've talked- I talked briefly with Duncan about it, who has a, you know, a ton of- of, uh, resources in the athletic performance field and, um, so we've talked briefly about that. But, um, nobody on the staff, you know, currently. It's, you know, it- it's- it's kind of a give-and-take. Look, we want to provide all these resources to our athletes, but we also want them to retain their independence. I mean, you don't... If you notice in the Performance Institute, there's no MMA coaches there. So there's no striking, wre- wrestling coaches, jujitsu coaches, none of that. That's for the athlete to bring in because there needs to be some level of independence.

    6. JR

      Right.

    7. JN

      You don't want to train the entire roster, you know, the same way.

    8. JR

      Against itself.

    9. JN

      Exactly.

    10. JR

      Yeah, yeah, exactly. It sounds like it would be.

    11. JN

      I saw early on in my tenure here with UFC, I saw one of the most incredible things that- that I've ever seen, and I've only seen it once, but I saw a fighter show up fight night outside the locker room and basically said, "I don't want to go in. I don't want to do this," at the arena.

    12. JR

      Really?

    13. JN

      And, I mean, I was just blown away and, uh, actually Sean Shelby went up and thought it was awesome, had a great conversation with the fighter, said, "Look, you're not feeling anything that everybody doesn't feel. Every single fighter on the roster feels what you're feeling right now. You're just letting it get the best of you. You know, you're a badass fighter, you know, you've kicked ass before, you've gotten beat before. Uh, you know, what's the worst gonna happen? You're gonna- you're gonna get beat, you're gonna live through this thing. You're just letting it surface. Everybody feels what you're feeling." And for a second, you know, the fighter came back a little bit and then boom, left the arena.

    14. JR

      Whoa.

    15. JN

      Crazy. But I think that must enter into the head or the prospect of that, of every single person, every single fighter that comes to the arena, I'm sure there's just a little bit of that-

    16. JR

      Oh, yeah.

    17. JN

      ... in the back of the head, and it's just an incredible journey to see them mentally overcome, um, that amount of stress pre-fight, it's incredible.

    18. JR

      That's why it's so interesting to see a guy like Conor who's so relaxed in there. It's kind of weird. You know, like when he does that rubber arm strut-

    19. JN

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      ... just walking around the cage? He's kind of like letting you know how he is dealing with this better than you are.

    21. JN

      You know the one fighter that, uh... 'Cause I pay really close attention after having seen that early, pay really close attention just to see that fighter on the walk out. I like to sit, you know, pretty close to the cage and just look at that fighter's eyes and I- I tend to see a little bit of nervousness and fear in- in everyone, I think it's probably healthy. One person that sticks out, that I looked at, and I saw nothing in this dude's face. I saw like a little smirk, like he was so happy to be in there, and it's the first time I've seen this guy fight, um, and that's Justin Gaethje. When he fought Michael Johnson I remember looking, he walked in first and I was sitting on one side and he was on the other side of the cage, and was looking in his eyes and I had never seen him fight before, and I'm like, "Who the hell- who is this guy? He looks like he's happy to be in there, like this is, you know, some party he's at." And that fight was incredible.

    22. JR

      Well, he's cra-

    23. JN

      Wasn't it?

    24. JR

      He's legitimately crazy. He said that getting knocked out by Eddie Alvarez is the greatest thing that ever happened to him in his life.

    25. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    26. JN

      Yeah, he's a different breed.

    27. JR

      (sighs) Yeah, well he's got a mindset, and that mindset is, "I'm coming to go to war." And he said it when he got signed, he said, uh, "Over the next couple of years, I'm gonna get knocked out."

    28. JN

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      "Someone's gonna knock me out." He goes, "But I'm gonna knock a lot of people out and I'm- I'm gonna break people." You know?

    30. JN

      (laughs)

  10. 59:56 – 1:18:11

    Brain health and recovery experiments: magnetic therapy, C3 Logic tests, and CTE uncertainty

    1. JR

      ... where they're using some sort of magnetic frequencies on fighters that have had brain injuries. Like, what- what is this?

    2. JN

      Yeah, well it was something that the Dr. Duncan French kind of brought into the mix here. Um, so previous to coming to UFC, he was Director of Sports Performance at University of Notre Dame, South Bend, Indiana. And, uh, they were looking into, um, you know, traumatic brain injury in football and possible therapy, um, and they came across a clinic in San Diego that was using this therapy, an FDA-approved device. It's basically low level magnet therapy. Um, in conjunction with that, they do some EKGs, a reading of the electrical waves in the brain. And, you know, uh, initially were finding that this therapy was bringing some of those readings back together. And, uh, I think very early, um, in- in the process of figuring out whether this can really work or not, but, you know, certainly what the UFC wants to be is ahead of the curve in terms of potential therapies out there for, um, you know, for treating the brain. Um, and so, uh, yeah, Cat's been going there for a while, and, um, you know, has s- she says she's experienced some positive results.

    3. JR

      Yeah, she's- she told me she got some outstanding results. And what's interesting is there's been a ton of research and, um, studies done on transdermal stimulation, all these different, uh, ways to increase the- the brain's ability to learn. And, um, there was a Radiolab podcast on this. I think it was called something nine volt, see if you could find it. Nine volt something or another. But it basically detailed how they use this for a sniper simulation. (coughs) And what they did is they took this woman who was a reporter, um, they put her through this sniper simulation game, it's like a video game. She scored poorly and then, yeah, Nine Volt Nirvana, thank you Jamie.

    4. JN

      (laughs)

    5. JR

      And so then they attached these electrodes to various areas of her head.

    6. JN

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JR

      And stimulated her brain with a small charge, and she went through the exact same thing. And she said it felt like the 20 minutes went by in 2 minutes and her- her score was perfect.

    8. JN

      Hmm.

    9. JR

      And this is being echoed throughout, like, many different people that have done tests on these var- And there's a lot of, like, home hacking where people are literally going to Radiolab and making their own setups.

    10. JN

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JR

      But I'm curious to see if the UFC has looked into some of these things. Like, some- like, maybe perhaps there's a way you could stimulate the body's ability to learn certain techniques or, like, carve pathways by stimulating areas of the brain.

    12. JN

      Yeah, man, another great reason for you to get Duncan in here-

    13. JR

      (laughs) Yeah.

    14. JN

      ... 'cause he can talk real knowledgeably about this therapy. He told me when, at the University of Notre Dame, you know, they'd have- they've had football players that would, you know, have migraine headaches for long periods of time that underwent this therapy and in a matter of weeks they were- they went away. Um, when Donna and I visited the facility down in San Diego, they talked about, uh, employees of the facility bringing in their kids. A, kids that had some levels of autism that after this therapy were more engaging with people. They also talked about kids that had tests or finals coming up the day after, they go in for this therapy the night before and get- their test scores were improving-

    15. JR

      Whoa.

    16. JN

      ... as a result. Um, there was a lot of- they deal with a lot of special forces soldiers down in the San Diego area that have had traumatic brain injuries because of, you know, IEDs and, uh, have seen some success there. So, I mean, I think some real exciting potential there that, again, you know, the UFC wants to be at the forefront of and, you know, be the first to, you know, to suggest some of these things to our athletes. And, you know, potentially even looking getting some of these devices at the PI, um, and be able to treat some of our athletes there.

    17. JR

      (clicks tongue) Yeah, that would be amazing. And I think that, uh, we're in an interesting time now where because so much research is being put on CTE and- and traumatic brain injuries that we're- we're looking at potential ways to mitigate those problems and maybe even rehab some of the issues that fighters are having.

    18. JN

      Yeah, so, uh, one thing we didn't show you on your tour is, uh, we now make part of the onboarding process at the PI, the C3 logic testing, which is this, you know, 25, 30 minute neurocognitive test that came out of the Cleveland Clinic brain study. And it's an iPad based test. Um, it's a mix of memory, shape recognition, balance, you actually, you know, put the pad on your- onto a belt, you stand on this unstable surface and close your eyes, and it basically gives you measurements or readings after 25 or 30 minutes. And then, you know, over time you can compare those readings. If they're declining, maybe it's time to take a little bit of time off from- from training and fighting. Um, if they're staying stable, then, you know, maybe you know you're doing all right. The California Athletic Commission requires that for all fights. So, all fighters in any card in California, the Wednesday or Thursday before the fight goes through the C3 logic testing, all of it's uploaded to a cloud. So, you know, after a period of a couple years, um, a fighter can have access to some real objective data on, you know, what their neurocognitive capabilities are looking like.

    19. JR

      That would be a great way to find out ... I mean, maybe one of the only ways to find out without a fighter decl- disclosing it, whether or not a fighter's been knocked out in camp. Because tha- that's a, a common occurrence that fighters get knocked out in camp in hard sparring-

    20. JN

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      ... and then a week, two weeks later have to fight, and their ability to take a shot is gone.

    22. JN

      Sure. Yeah, it's interesting. You know, often asked about that and comparing it to other sports leagues, and the one thing I will say, you know, with MMA ... Now this is excluding things that are going on in the gym, but in a fight that's regulated by an athletic commission, I think MMA has some of the most conservative return-to-play policy, I know it does, of any sport wherein if you're an NFL quarterback and you get knocked out on a Sunday, yeah, you're in a concussion protocol, but they're trying to get you back playing probably the next Sunday or-

    23. JR

      Yeah.

    24. JN

      ... the Sunday thereafter.

    25. JR

      Which is crazy.

    26. JN

      A big concussion in MMA, as you know, is like a 45, 60 mandatory 45 days no activity, 60 days before you fight. I mean, we've seen suspensions out to six months mandatory medical suspension, so.

    27. JR

      And some of them, I think, are very warranted. I mean, there's some brutal, brutal knockouts-

    28. JN

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      ... where you ... Like Alistair Overeem and Francis Ngannou, like I don't want to see Alistair fight next month. You know? I mean, I don't ... And here's a question about a guy like Alistair. Alistair, we, we looked it up one day on a podcast, has been stopped or knocked out somewhere in the neighborhood of 13 times in MMA, and then three times more in kickboxing. What, what's the number where you're like, "That's enough."

    30. JN

      Yeah. I don't know the answer to that. Um, I know you talk with Alistair and-

Episode duration: 2:19:11

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