EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,082 words- 0:00 – 15:00
Four, three, two, one.…
- JRJoe Rogan
Four, three, two, one. Ladies and gentlemen, Jeff Novitzky.
- JNJeff Novitzky
How are you, buddy? What's up, Joe? Doing good. You?
- JRJoe Rogan
I have to ask you. Do you mind the nickname the Golden Snitch?
- JNJeff Novitzky
It's the first thing I was gonna bring up-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JNJeff Novitzky
... with you. This Golden Snitch bullshit.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) I just wanna say, it's not my nickname, it's Brendan Schaub's. He came up with it 100% on his own.
- JNJeff Novitzky
I was gonna ask you. It's all good, though.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's okay?
- JNJeff Novitzky
It's all good. It's all good. So a couple funny stories about that. So I don't ... When did he come up with this, about a year ago?
- JRJoe Rogan
At least, yeah.
- JNJeff Novitzky
So, so people in the office started coming up to me saying, "Hey, Golden Snitch." And I'm like-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JNJeff Novitzky
... wh- what the hell is that?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JNJeff Novitzky
So I do a little research, I see something about Harry Potter, some character-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JNJeff Novitzky
... named there. I'm like, "What the hell does this have to do with me?" So about a month ago, somebody lets me know, "Hey, check out Wikipedia." So for whatever reason, there's a Jeff Novitzky Wikipedia page. You go to that page now, it says, says actually my formal name, Jeffrey John Novitzky, AKA The Golden Snitch.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JNJeff Novitzky
So last week, Donna Marcolini, you know Donna.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. (laughs)
- JNJeff Novitzky
Um, long, 15-year employee of the UFC, now works with me, and talk about her a little later, is a great asset to what we're doing. She sends me a text, she says, "Check this out." So she's got one of those Amazon Echos, um, Alexa, I think.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JNJeff Novitzky
So she says, "Alexa, who is Jeff Novitzky?" And Alexa's name says, "Jeffrey John Novitzky, AKA The Golden Snitch."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JNJeff Novitzky
So thanks a lot, Schaub.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Oh, Schaub, what have you done? That's hilar- I love Donna. She's amazing.
- JNJeff Novitzky
She's awesome. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's great that she's over there. She's so good.
- JNJeff Novitzky
Yeah, I mean, you know about kind of her history.
- 15:00 – 30:00
It certainly seems like,…
- JNJeff Novitzky
on Jon, um, a month or two or a couple months after his positive test and he was negative during that test. So that would be indicative that, you know, the prohibited system entered his system- or the prohibited substance entered his system, you know, some time after July 7th or 8th and was likely, you know, a pretty small amount in that it cleared his system pretty quickly. Um, again, you know, who knows where it plays out, but certainly on the surface of things, I have said, you know, at this point in the game with that type of information out there, um, it- it wouldn't indicate intentional use. Now, that could be wrong. I don't know that definitively, and- and we'll see how this plays out. Uh, right now where the process is is Jon and USADA are working closely. Um, I'm aware that there was a meeting a week or two ago, a pretty lengthy meeting, which, uh, I was told was productive. Uh, I wasn't given details of what productive meant, um, but I think that's an important thing right now and that Jon's following through with is to retrace all of his steps between that, you know, Ju- last July 8th positive test and- or negative test and the positive test on July 29th or July 30th.
- JRJoe Rogan
It certainly seems like, uh, based on what you just said, that this is something that was accidentally taken. But if you can't prove that something was accidentally taken, like if you can't nail it down, what do you- what happens there?
- JNJeff Novitzky
Yeah, it's- it's difficult. And that's- you know, that's kind of the nightmare scenario that a lot of- you know, that an athlete can face. And- and a big role of what Donna and I do to prevent that from happening to show them what type of care and consideration is needed to make sure you don't get into a scenario like that. You know, under a program like this, you have to be careful about everything that's put into your body. Um, everything. And, uh, if you're not, there can be, you know, severe consequences. Um, so yeah, we'll- we'll see where this plays out. I- I tell you the one thing that I- that I can say about this is, you know, this is obviously Jon's second time, um, in the program with testing positive, and- and the first time he went through a pretty lengthy, um, appeal process, and there was a publicly issued, uh, decision, 50, 60 pages that went through all the evidence that, um, that the independent, um, uh, arbitrators heard and- and decided on. And what they said definitively in that case was Jon- there was no evidence that Jon intentionally cheated, however, he operated with careless, reckless disregard. Um, so he ended up getting the maximum for that- for those substances he tested positive for, a year.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that was for some gas station Viagra-type shit.
- JNJeff Novitzky
Uh, well, it was actually a couple of anti-estrogen drugs, but what was shown and what the evidence pointed to was that he took a pill, um, that was manufactured from a website by the name of All American Peptide. Uh, the pill was purported to be a Cialis, um, pill, so an erectile def- dysfunction pill that was tainted with these two drugs.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JNJeff Novitzky
Now, the problem that what the arbitrator said is if he would've gone to that website, and the arbitrators did and I did, you would've seen that that same website offered-... you know, tons of performance-enhancing- prohibited performance-enhancing drugs. And the website said, you know, "Not for human consumption, for research purposes only."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JNJeff Novitzky
So it really was careless disregard. That being said, however, Jon's, you know, second time through the program now. The second sanction, this time for, you know, an anabolic-type steroid, would have, you know, a starting point, potentially, of a four-year suspension.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a starting point.
- JNJeff Novitzky
That could be a starting point, right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Unless-
- JNJeff Novitzky
Unless there are mitigating factors. Now, I don't ... You know, again, the beauty of this program is it's not the UFC or not me deciding-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JNJeff Novitzky
... you know, what the sanction's gonna be. No one can accuse us of, you know, operating for business purposes or favoritism or whatever.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JNJeff Novitzky
Um, but that being said, you know, when we put this program together and figured out, you know, what sanctioning would look like, I don't necessarily think (laughs) that we put up a four-year sanction, um, for a second-term offense when the first-term offense was shown that that person didn't cheat intentionally-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JNJeff Novitzky
... just operated with careless disregard. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
So, who makes that distinction then, USADA?
- JNJeff Novitzky
USADA makes that distinction. They, you know, they have a whole team looking at it. They compare it to other cases under, you know, the WADA, uh, Olympic-type umbrella, similar cases. Um, I will say this, that, you know, I think we've had, uh, a few over 60, um, positive adverse events in this case, and those that have been adjudicated, I've been comfortable every time that they've made a fair and balanced and reasonable decision. And that's ... Part of my job is to be the eyes and ears for athletes, to make sure not only is the program being administered properly and has strength, but also that they're being treated fairly and that they have due process. So I have all the confidence in the world, however this does come out, that it will be the right decision. The other really cool thing about the program is the transparency of the program. So, you know, it won't just be me saying this. However it does come out, whether it goes to arbitration or whether Jon and USADA reach a settlement, it'll be well spelled out about why that sanction, uh, was determined.
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, you say starting point, meaning that it could p- potentially be more?
- JNJeff Novitzky
It could. So, uh, when there's something called aggravating circumstances, so more than just knowingly taking the drug-
- JRJoe Rogan
Lying.
- JNJeff Novitzky
... taking the drug and lying, trying to cover it up, taking multiple drugs, one trying to hide the other, yeah, you could, you could get double, um, uh, the sanction amount. So, um, you know, on a second-time anabolic steroid, four years is kind of the starting point. You can go lower for mitigating factors. You can go higher for aggravating factors, up to eight years. Um, so yeah, I mean, it would, it would have to require something, you know, really severe and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Up to eight years, wow.
- JNJeff Novitzky
... egregious to get, to get up that, that high.
- JRJoe Rogan
Has anybody ever gotten that hit?
- JNJeff Novitzky
Not in the UFC program, no.
- JRJoe Rogan
What is the biggest hit that anyone's ever gotten in the UFC?
- 30:00 – 45:00
So she has to…
- JNJeff Novitzky
sometimes you forget. I'll give you the perfect example. So again, getting back to Donna, the most, um, attention to detail person that I've ever worked with in my working career. She comes over, joins, kind of, our program here. We get her signed up for Whereabouts. She's like, "This is great," like, "I can talk knowledgeably about how to do this." We went out to Anaheim for UFC ... f- ... I forget what number that was. Um, we take a trip down from Anaheim to San Diego. We went down to this clinic he- uh, that we were checking out for brain therapy. She forgot to update that she was going to San Diego. She was more than two hours outside of where she was supposed to be, where USADA knew she was gonna be, she would have gotten a Whereabouts failure. Again, one of the most responsible people that I've ever been around, goes to show that it's challenging and, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
So she has to notify where she's gonna be?
- JNJeff Novitzky
She ... We do it voluntarily-
- JRJoe Rogan
(clears throat) Right.
- JNJeff Novitzky
... just so we can talk knowledgeably to our athletes, so that when they say-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, and just explain how it works.
- JNJeff Novitzky
... "Hey, this is too hard." Or, you know, we say, "Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
We do it.
- JNJeff Novitzky
... we do it."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JNJeff Novitzky
Yeah. "Here's, here's-"
- JRJoe Rogan
That's interesting.
- JNJeff Novitzky
"... a little trick that I have to remind myself, you know, each day, where I said I'm gonna be at." Things like that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, when you have a fighter like a Holly Holm, I think said she was tested nine times in preparation for this fight against Cyborg. When, when that happens, is there a ... I know you can't say when the test is gonna happen, 'cause it won't be random, but is there any consideration about the sleep cycle of the fighters?
- JNJeff Novitzky
Yeah, I mean that's, you know ... USADA never lets me know when a test is coming. I have zero input in terms of who's being tested, and that is the reality. A lot of times they show up 5:30, 6:00 in the morning-
- JRJoe Rogan
That seems like-
- JNJeff Novitzky
... show up.
- JRJoe Rogan
... it would really suck-
- JNJeff Novitzky
It-
- JRJoe Rogan
... for fighters.
- JNJeff Novitzky
There is no doubt about it.
- JRJoe Rogan
(clears throat)
- JNJeff Novitzky
The bur- and they-
- JRJoe Rogan
Is this just a urine? This is just a urine test?
- JNJeff Novitzky
Or it can be blood as well. I mean, imagine, you're dead asleep, 6:00 in the morning-
- JRJoe Rogan
(clears throat)
- JNJeff Novitzky
... someone's knocking at your front door. That's scary shit to begin with.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JNJeff Novitzky
You go downstairs, you know, you're trying to get ready for a fight, prepare yourself sleep-wise, mentally, and you gotta have a needle stuck in you to get, to draw blood, wait til you gotta take a pee. Could be, you know ... some fighters wait hours. Um, you know, I don't think enough attention is being paid to the burden that's on the athletes and the credit they should be getting. A Holly Holm, I think ... I saw a s- a statistic that she's the most tested athlete since the inception of the program. I think she's around 32 or 33 samples that she's provided. I mean, that's crazy. Um, but that ... I, I think she should ... Not enough credit is given to her about-
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, why do they test her so many times?
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
Yeah. …
- JNJeff Novitzky
little intimidating or scary and looking
- NANarrator
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. My wife made me move it out of the basement. I had one in the basement.
- JNJeff Novitzky
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
And she's like, "People come over, they think you're a freak."
- JNJeff Novitzky
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
"Mm-hmm, they think I'm a freak." But, um, the idea behind it, I think, is pretty sound. And I think, um, there's a lot of benefits for it, uh, for fighters as far as concentrating on technique as well. I think it's an amazing place to focus on strategy and game plans and movement and things along those lines where you can visualize.
- JNJeff Novitzky
One of the most amazing things with this sport, and I, you know, coming over to the UFC, I, I'd call myself a fringe fan. I mean, I would follow it a little bit, but I'm, I'm hook, line, and sinker into the sport now. And the most remarkable thing I find about the sport is the mental game. It is (laughs) the most incredible mental game of any athlete in any sport in the world. When you're walking out into an octagon and facing one of the baddest mixed martial artists in the, in, on the planet. And, you know, I know you've seen a ton of fights over your career, but I think one thing that, that I've seen in the two and a half years that you may not is that progression through fight week. So when I go out to these events or events are in Vegas, I'm there check-in day, Monday or Tuesday of fight week. And typically when we're on the road, I'm there, you know, every day in the same hotel. I'm watching these guys and girls eat breakfast. I'm watching them at the gym prepare, try to make weight on Friday. I'm watching them Saturday morning with the prospect of the fight ahead of them. What an incredible mental journey it is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JNJeff Novitzky
... to know that you're about to get into, you know, a cage with one of the baddest fighters on the planet. And even if you win, probably come out, you know, with a little bit of damage. I mean, everything to, to fight night ... I mean, d- fight night, these, these athletes are in a locker room, typically with three or four other athletes. And especially if you're one of the last athletes on that card, one by one your locker mates are walking out and then coming back in. And you see, you know, damage on even the ones that win. And unlike other sports where you get out on the field and you warm up and you get a little sense of what the atmosphere is like-... these athletes are walking out, you know, into the lion's den seeing it for the first time, and the sensory, overwhelming sensory, uh, things that are going on when doing that, and to be able to, you know, control your emotions and- and you know, compete against somebody is just absolutely the most incredible thing that- that I've ever seen. I'm so amazed. And- and you know, very few of these fighters, and I talk to a lot of them, that doesn't get to them in some way or form. Um, that is, you know, I talk to Forrest often about that, and Forrest says... He equates it to if you'd never jumped out of an airplane, the whole time you're on the way up saying, "What the hell am I doing? This is crazy." And then, you know, when the bell rings and you start fighting, then it kind of calms down, you're back in your- your kind of zone. But just, what an incredible mental game this is, and I just have so much respect for our athletes because of what they have to go through and they're able to do it time and time again, and control those emotions.
- JRJoe Rogan
You bring up an important point, and, um, mental training is something that a lot of athletes have really concentrated on more over the last few years than I- I think, uh, ever that I can recall. And a lot of them bring in hypnotists and a lot bring in sports psychologists. Is there ever been any talk of bringing that to the Performance Institute?
- JNJeff Novitzky
Yeah, you know, I've talked- I talked briefly with Duncan about it, who has a, you know, a ton of- of, uh, resources in the athletic performance field and, um, so we've talked briefly about that. But, um, nobody on the staff, you know, currently. It's, you know, it- it's- it's kind of a give-and-take. Look, we want to provide all these resources to our athletes, but we also want them to retain their independence. I mean, you don't... If you notice in the Performance Institute, there's no MMA coaches there. So there's no striking, wre- wrestling coaches, jujitsu coaches, none of that. That's for the athlete to bring in because there needs to be some level of independence.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JNJeff Novitzky
You don't want to train the entire roster, you know, the same way.
- JRJoe Rogan
Against itself.
- JNJeff Novitzky
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, yeah, exactly. It sounds like it would be.
- JNJeff Novitzky
I saw early on in my tenure here with UFC, I saw one of the most incredible things that- that I've ever seen, and I've only seen it once, but I saw a fighter show up fight night outside the locker room and basically said, "I don't want to go in. I don't want to do this," at the arena.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- JNJeff Novitzky
And, I mean, I was just blown away and, uh, actually Sean Shelby went up and thought it was awesome, had a great conversation with the fighter, said, "Look, you're not feeling anything that everybody doesn't feel. Every single fighter on the roster feels what you're feeling right now. You're just letting it get the best of you. You know, you're a badass fighter, you know, you've kicked ass before, you've gotten beat before. Uh, you know, what's the worst gonna happen? You're gonna- you're gonna get beat, you're gonna live through this thing. You're just letting it surface. Everybody feels what you're feeling." And for a second, you know, the fighter came back a little bit and then boom, left the arena.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- JNJeff Novitzky
Crazy. But I think that must enter into the head or the prospect of that, of every single person, every single fighter that comes to the arena, I'm sure there's just a little bit of that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, yeah.
- JNJeff Novitzky
... in the back of the head, and it's just an incredible journey to see them mentally overcome, um, that amount of stress pre-fight, it's incredible.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's why it's so interesting to see a guy like Conor who's so relaxed in there. It's kind of weird. You know, like when he does that rubber arm strut-
- JNJeff Novitzky
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... just walking around the cage? He's kind of like letting you know how he is dealing with this better than you are.
- JNJeff Novitzky
You know the one fighter that, uh... 'Cause I pay really close attention after having seen that early, pay really close attention just to see that fighter on the walk out. I like to sit, you know, pretty close to the cage and just look at that fighter's eyes and I- I tend to see a little bit of nervousness and fear in- in everyone, I think it's probably healthy. One person that sticks out, that I looked at, and I saw nothing in this dude's face. I saw like a little smirk, like he was so happy to be in there, and it's the first time I've seen this guy fight, um, and that's Justin Gaethje. When he fought Michael Johnson I remember looking, he walked in first and I was sitting on one side and he was on the other side of the cage, and was looking in his eyes and I had never seen him fight before, and I'm like, "Who the hell- who is this guy? He looks like he's happy to be in there, like this is, you know, some party he's at." And that fight was incredible.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, he's cra-
- JNJeff Novitzky
Wasn't it?
- 1:00:00 – 1:11:33
Yeah, well it was…
- JRJoe Rogan
on fighters that have had brain injuries. Like, what- what is this?
- JNJeff Novitzky
Yeah, well it was something that the Dr. Duncan French kind of brought into the mix here. Um, so previous to coming to UFC, he was Director of Sports Performance at University of Notre Dame, South Bend, Indiana. And, uh, they were looking into, um, you know, traumatic brain injury in football and possible therapy, um, and they came across a clinic in San Diego that was using this therapy, an FDA-approved device. It's basically low level magnet therapy. Um, in conjunction with that, they do some EKGs, a reading of the electrical waves in the brain. And, you know, uh, initially were finding that this therapy was bringing some of those readings back together. And, uh, I think very early, um, in- in the process of figuring out whether this can really work or not, but, you know, certainly what the UFC wants to be is ahead of the curve in terms of potential therapies out there for, um, you know, for treating the brain. Um, and so, uh, yeah, Cat's been going there for a while, and, um, you know, has s- she says she's experienced some positive results.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, she's- she told me she got some outstanding results. And what's interesting is there's been a ton of research and, um, studies done on transdermal stimulation, all these different, uh, ways to increase the- the brain's ability to learn. And, um, there was a Radiolab podcast on this. I think it was called something nine volt, see if you could find it. Nine volt something or another. But it basically detailed how they use this for a sniper simulation. (coughs) And what they did is they took this woman who was a reporter, um, they put her through this sniper simulation game, it's like a video game. She scored poorly and then, yeah, Nine Volt Nirvana, thank you Jamie.
- JNJeff Novitzky
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
And so then they attached these electrodes to various areas of her head.
- JNJeff Novitzky
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And stimulated her brain with a small charge, and she went through the exact same thing. And she said it felt like the 20 minutes went by in 2 minutes and her- her score was perfect.
- JNJeff Novitzky
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And this is being echoed throughout, like, many different people that have done tests on these var- And there's a lot of, like, home hacking where people are literally going to Radiolab and making their own setups.
- JNJeff Novitzky
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
But I'm curious to see if the UFC has looked into some of these things. Like, some- like, maybe perhaps there's a way you could stimulate the body's ability to learn certain techniques or, like, carve pathways by stimulating areas of the brain.
- JNJeff Novitzky
Yeah, man, another great reason for you to get Duncan in here-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Yeah.
- JNJeff Novitzky
... 'cause he can talk real knowledgeably about this therapy. He told me when, at the University of Notre Dame, you know, they'd have- they've had football players that would, you know, have migraine headaches for long periods of time that underwent this therapy and in a matter of weeks they were- they went away. Um, when Donna and I visited the facility down in San Diego, they talked about, uh, employees of the facility bringing in their kids. A, kids that had some levels of autism that after this therapy were more engaging with people. They also talked about kids that had tests or finals coming up the day after, they go in for this therapy the night before and get- their test scores were improving-
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- JNJeff Novitzky
... as a result. Um, there was a lot of- they deal with a lot of special forces soldiers down in the San Diego area that have had traumatic brain injuries because of, you know, IEDs and, uh, have seen some success there. So, I mean, I think some real exciting potential there that, again, you know, the UFC wants to be at the forefront of and, you know, be the first to, you know, to suggest some of these things to our athletes. And, you know, potentially even looking getting some of these devices at the PI, um, and be able to treat some of our athletes there.
- JRJoe Rogan
(clicks tongue) Yeah, that would be amazing. And I think that, uh, we're in an interesting time now where because so much research is being put on CTE and- and traumatic brain injuries that we're- we're looking at potential ways to mitigate those problems and maybe even rehab some of the issues that fighters are having.
- JNJeff Novitzky
Yeah, so, uh, one thing we didn't show you on your tour is, uh, we now make part of the onboarding process at the PI, the C3 logic testing, which is this, you know, 25, 30 minute neurocognitive test that came out of the Cleveland Clinic brain study. And it's an iPad based test. Um, it's a mix of memory, shape recognition, balance, you actually, you know, put the pad on your- onto a belt, you stand on this unstable surface and close your eyes, and it basically gives you measurements or readings after 25 or 30 minutes. And then, you know, over time you can compare those readings. If they're declining, maybe it's time to take a little bit of time off from- from training and fighting. Um, if they're staying stable, then, you know, maybe you know you're doing all right. The California Athletic Commission requires that for all fights. So, all fighters in any card in California, the Wednesday or Thursday before the fight goes through the C3 logic testing, all of it's uploaded to a cloud. So, you know, after a period of a couple years, um, a fighter can have access to some real objective data on, you know, what their neurocognitive capabilities are looking like.
- JRJoe Rogan
That would be a great way to find out ... I mean, maybe one of the only ways to find out without a fighter decl- disclosing it, whether or not a fighter's been knocked out in camp. Because tha- that's a, a common occurrence that fighters get knocked out in camp in hard sparring-
- JNJeff Novitzky
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and then a week, two weeks later have to fight, and their ability to take a shot is gone.
- JNJeff Novitzky
Sure. Yeah, it's interesting. You know, often asked about that and comparing it to other sports leagues, and the one thing I will say, you know, with MMA ... Now this is excluding things that are going on in the gym, but in a fight that's regulated by an athletic commission, I think MMA has some of the most conservative return-to-play policy, I know it does, of any sport wherein if you're an NFL quarterback and you get knocked out on a Sunday, yeah, you're in a concussion protocol, but they're trying to get you back playing probably the next Sunday or-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JNJeff Novitzky
... the Sunday thereafter.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is crazy.
- JNJeff Novitzky
A big concussion in MMA, as you know, is like a 45, 60 mandatory 45 days no activity, 60 days before you fight. I mean, we've seen suspensions out to six months mandatory medical suspension, so.
- JRJoe Rogan
And some of them, I think, are very warranted. I mean, there's some brutal, brutal knockouts-
- JNJeff Novitzky
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... where you ... Like Alistair Overeem and Francis Ngannou, like I don't want to see Alistair fight next month. You know? I mean, I don't ... And here's a question about a guy like Alistair. Alistair, we, we looked it up one day on a podcast, has been stopped or knocked out somewhere in the neighborhood of 13 times in MMA, and then three times more in kickboxing. What, what's the number where you're like, "That's enough."
- JNJeff Novitzky
Yeah. I don't know the answer to that. Um, I know you talk with Alistair and-
Episode duration: 2:19:11
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