JRE MMA Show #90 with Rashad Evans

Joe Rogan 0:00 3, 2, 1, bo- You can tell a lot about a man whether or not he's one of those dudes that has one of them-

Rashad Evans 0:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:06 ... wallet phone cases.

Rashad Evans 0:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:08 Rashad Evans, you're a wallet phone case guy.

Rashad Evans 0:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:11 You, you pack it all into one package.

Rashad Evans 0:12 You know what? I wasn't always a wallet phone case guy. It's kinda something that just, you know, I kind of evolved into. I was one that was carrying around the, the, uh-

Joe Rogan 0:20 Man purse?

Rashad Evans 0:21 ... the man purse for a while.

Joe Rogan 0:22 Mm.

Rashad Evans 0:22 And, and after a while I kinda transitioned to just the, the, the wallet case.

Joe Rogan 0:27 That's a lot of work, though. Look how thick that sucker is.

Rashad Evans 0:30 It's, it's like a Costanza now.

Joe Rogan 0:31 Look at that thing.

Rashad Evans 0:32 It, it, it, it ... I know. And there's the thing-

Joe Rogan 0:33 That thing's giant.

Rashad Evans 0:34 Every single time I clean it out, I tell myself I'm not gonna put any more cards in there except for the ones I need. But, it just attracts the cards.

Joe Rogan 0:41 Yeah, that's a problem. I have one of those Ridge wallets. You know what those are?

Rashad Evans 0:45 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:45 Those are the shit because you can't really get much in there. I get, like, a credit card or two and my license, and that's it.

Rashad Evans 0:53 See, that's- see, that's what I need. I need to have that discipline-

Joe Rogan 0:55 Yes.

Rashad Evans 0:55 ... where there's nothing else to carry but what I have to carry.

Joe Rogan 0:58 And it's got a little money clip on it, so I'll s- sh- shove a couple bills in there, and that's it.

Rashad Evans 1:02 That's it. See, that's-

Joe Rogan 1:03 I go out like that.

Rashad Evans 1:04 That's what I need. I got it.

Joe Rogan 1:04 That's what you need, front pocket.

Rashad Evans 1:06 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:06 All this nonsense. That's so thick.

Rashad Evans 1:09 It's thick, I know.

Joe Rogan 1:10 You might as well go back to the man purse.

Rashad Evans 1:11 But you know what? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:13 Might as well get a backpack or a fanny pack.

Rashad Evans 1:16 (laughs) A fanny-

Joe Rogan 1:16 I'll send you one of these. I just sent two to Stipe Miocic.

Rashad Evans 1:19 Those look all right, though.

Joe Rogan 1:20 That's pretty dope, right?

Rashad Evans 1:21 Yeah, it is pretty dope.

Joe Rogan 1:22 It's ... My own company makes ... Well, we don't make them.

Rashad Evans 1:24 I see.

Joe Rogan 1:24 We buy them from Roots.

Rashad Evans 1:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:25 And we put our stamp on it. Yeah, leather, right? You might want to get one for you.

Rashad Evans 1:29 Yeah, I do want one. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:30 Right? Yeah. You're a bold man, you can wear a fanny pack.

Rashad Evans 1:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:33 You're Rashad Evans.

Rashad Evans 1:33 You know, I was rocking, I was rocking the man purse before anybody else was wearing it.

Joe Rogan 1:37 Really?

Rashad Evans 1:37 I mean, out, out in America.

Joe Rogan 1:38 (laughs)

Rashad Evans 1:39 Uh, out in Europe they were doing it a long time ago.

Joe Rogan 1:40 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 1:40 But in America I was, like, one of the ... I was a trailblazer, I like to say. Uh, at least among my friends.

Joe Rogan 1:45 It is a weird thing, right?

Rashad Evans 1:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:46 Like, guys are not supposed to wear bags, but women have, like-

Rashad Evans 1:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:50 ... fucking all these different brands of bags they carry around. Fendi and Gucci and this and that, and it makes you look like you're special 'cause you got some fancy bag.

Rashad Evans 2:01 And carrying a bag actually helped me be per- be more prepared than ever. Because, I mean, I would always be car- one of them dudes-

Joe Rogan 2:07 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 2:07 ... who can't carry enough stuff, and I always would come with things, wishing I had things that I didn't have. And I'm like, "You know what? The bag worked."

Joe Rogan 2:15 But why is it that we're afraid to carry a bag? Like, a guy can carry a backpack. Backpack's fine.

Rashad Evans 2:20 But not a bag.

Joe Rogan 2:20 I guess you got, got shit to do, you got a backpack, you're fucking serious. Right? It's got two straps.

Rashad Evans 2:25 Right, right, right. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:26 But one strap, like, man, what's wrong with you?

Rashad Evans 2:29 I think it's 'cause you have to, to do the, the, the feminine hold at times with, with the-

Joe Rogan 2:34 Mm, like this?

Rashad Evans 2:34 ... with the one s- the one strap, yeah, and that can-

Joe Rogan 2:37 But dudes do over the shoulder so you don't have to do that. Then you're like, it's ca- it's a satchel.

Rashad Evans 2:40 Then that's manly. Th- then it's manly, then it's manly.

Joe Rogan 2:42 Very strange, right?

Rashad Evans 2:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:43 How a bag became manly or not manly based on the amount of straps.

Rashad Evans 2:47 It set that line.

Joe Rogan 2:48 Yeah, and then for women, it's like, uh, it's like a status symbol, like what kind of bag they're carrying.

Rashad Evans 2:54 Yeah, what kind of bag you got.

Joe Rogan 2:55 N- nobody gives a fuck what kind of backpack you have.

Rashad Evans 2:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:58 Right?

Rashad Evans 2:58 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 2:59 If y- if a dude has a nice backpack, no one's like, "Bro, where'd you get that backpack?"

Rashad Evans 3:02 "Where'd you get a backpack?"

Joe Rogan 3:04 You know?

Rashad Evans 3:04 But I mean, if you got a nice-

Joe Rogan 3:06 Fanny pack?

Rashad Evans 3:06 ... fanny pack then-

Joe Rogan 3:07 Sort of, not really. It doesn't get the respect it deserves.

Rashad Evans 3:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:10 Fanny pack.

Rashad Evans 3:10 But it s- it sticks out. Then people are like, "Okay, he's got enough balls to carry a fanny pack."

Joe Rogan 3:13 Yes. There's a little bit of that. A little bit of that. You know, a little bit of, "I don't give a fuck."

Rashad Evans 3:17 I seen a fanny pack carried where it's across the shoulder that looks kinda cool.

Joe Rogan 3:20 Weak, weak people. Weak people.

Rashad Evans 3:21 You don't thi-

Joe Rogan 3:22 Scared.

Rashad Evans 3:22 You don't think it's got a ... I think it's co-

Joe Rogan 3:23 No, they're scared to rock a real fanny pack.

Rashad Evans 3:25 I think it looks cool, like, with the waist.

Joe Rogan 3:26 Yeah, they're cowards.

Rashad Evans 3:27 Cowards.

Joe Rogan 3:27 They're cowards. They're fashion cowards. They don't want anybody calling them out on wearing a fanny pack, so, "No, no, no, it's a shoulder bag." It's not a shoulder bag, bitch.

Rashad Evans 3:34 You have to wear it right in front.

Joe Rogan 3:35 It's a fat man's fanny pack if you're wearing it over your shoulders.

Rashad Evans 3:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:39 (laughs) That's what it is. They're wearing it in a way you're not supposed to wear it. It's like if you wore a backpack around your waist, like, people would be like, "What the fuck are you doing?"

Rashad Evans 3:46 Right.

Joe Rogan 3:46 It's not a backpack when it's arou-

Rashad Evans 3:48 That's true.

Joe Rogan 3:48 ... it's wrapped around your waist. What are you- what are you doing?

Rashad Evans 3:49 But I mean, you would think that carrying it here, you could have everything you want, like, right here that you need.

Joe Rogan 3:54 What about right here, man?

Rashad Evans 3:55 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:55 You don't even have to lift your hands up.

Rashad Evans 3:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:57 You go like that, they're right in there.

Rashad Evans 3:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:59 Unzip that baby.

Rashad Evans 4:00 You know what? I'm, I'm, I guess I'm just trying to-

Joe Rogan 4:02 Woo.

Rashad Evans 4:02 I guess I'm trying to just wear it, like, say it how I think I would wear that one.

Joe Rogan 4:06 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 4:06 But you're g- you're kinda convincing me, Joe, that maybe the front, the front carry might be the-

Joe Rogan 4:11 It's the way to go.

Rashad Evans 4:12 ... the way to go.

Joe Rogan 4:12 The only issue is girls won't fuck you.

Rashad Evans 4:14 That's all right. That's all right.

Joe Rogan 4:15 Some girls, some girls, like, you wear a fanny pack, you'll ... (snaps fingers) That's it.

Rashad Evans 4:19 See, I'm married anyway, so I'm good now.

Joe Rogan 4:20 Beautiful. Perfect.

Rashad Evans 4:21 Yeah, I'm good with it.

Joe Rogan 4:22 Now, every married man, like myself-

Rashad Evans 4:24 You should have one.

Joe Rogan 4:24 ... every married man should have a fucking fanny pack.

Rashad Evans 4:26 It's a deterrent.

Joe Rogan 4:27 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 4:27 Pussy deterrent.

Joe Rogan 4:27 It's a little bit of that, but it's also, "Fuck you."

Rashad Evans 4:31 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:31 That's what it says, "Fuck you, I keep all my shit-"

Rashad Evans 4:33 "I carry my own shit."

Joe Rogan 4:33 "... right there. Keep my shit right there."

Rashad Evans 4:36 That's hilarious.

Joe Rogan 4:37 Yeah, keep it together. Keep it together. And then you also have this crazy green drink that you were telling me about.

Rashad Evans 4:42 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this right here is, um, spirulina. Uh, ever since I changed my diet up, I need to have a couple of these every single day. And it, uh, makes me feel good, you know?

Joe Rogan 4:52 Yeah?

Rashad Evans 4:53 Yeah, I don't, I don't eat meat anymore, so I know you're a big meat eater, so.

Joe Rogan 4:56 Yeah, do you eat fish or any of that?

Rashad Evans 4:57 No.

Joe Rogan 4:58 Nothing?

Rashad Evans 4:58 Nothing.

Joe Rogan 4:58 All vegan?

Rashad Evans 4:59 All vegan.

Joe Rogan 4:59 When did you become vegan?

Rashad Evans 5:01 Uh, probably about ... Oh, man, I wanna say probably about almost two years now.

Joe Rogan 5:05 Really?

Rashad Evans 5:05 Yeah, almost two years now.

Joe Rogan 5:07 You like it?

Rashad Evans 5:08 Love it. Love it.

Joe Rogan 5:08 Really?

Rashad Evans 5:09 It's changed my life, man. It's been, it's been one of the things I can honestly say that has just revolutionized my, my complete everything. It's, it's, it, it's, it's been everything that, that, um ... Lately, that has, you know, changed me from a mental standpoint, physical standpoint, and even a spiritual standpoint.

Joe Rogan 5:29 I definitely think it changes the mind, because this all meat diet that I've been on, that changes your mind the other way.

Rashad Evans 5:34 Yeah, you get aggressive?

Joe Rogan 5:34 It makes you more aggressive. Yeah, too much so. Yeah, I, I have to work out extra to keep the, keep the demons at bay.

Rashad Evans 5:40 It's the blood. It's the blood.

Joe Rogan 5:41 It is. It's that. It's also, like, if you think about it, wha- i- if your body thinks, "Okay, I have to eat animals all the time," 'cause all this motherfucker eats is animals, right?

Rashad Evans 5:52 Right.

Joe Rogan 5:52 If your body thinks that, your body's going to-... sort of take on the characteristics of something that's a predator.

Rashad Evans 5:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 6:00 Right? You would become more... I mean, this is obviously, like, some bullshit bro psychology-

Rashad Evans 6:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:04 ... because I'm a moron. But, I would say your body is gonna think, "I'm more aggressive. I, I have to chase shit down and kill it."

Rashad Evans 6:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:12 Right? That's, that's, you, you have to be more predatory, you, your body has to think that way.

Rashad Evans 6:16 I can get with that. I, it ma- it makes sense though. It makes sense.

Joe Rogan 6:19 Did you do it right after you retired?

Rashad Evans 6:21 (smacks lips) Um, you know, I kinda... Not right after I retired. It was kinda something that, um, (smacks lips) that kinda just happened. Like, I, uh, ever since I, um, like, 'cause I, I do mushrooms, right?

Joe Rogan 6:33 Uh-oh.

Rashad Evans 6:34 Yeah, yeah. So it was, it was, it was when I did a, uh, like when I had a, a really, really deep trip that just caused me to, (can opening) to, uh, have one of those ego deaths.

Joe Rogan 6:45 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 6:45 And when I had the ego death, I was, like, in a state where this knowingness was coming to me and it was like, you know, I was like, uh, it was all day. It was, I, I did like a mushroom ceremony.

Joe Rogan 6:57 Mm.

Rashad Evans 6:57 And it was all day, and I was just out in the sun and just, you know, in my own mind. And then, um, I was smelling real bad, and then I smelled myself. Now, you know ever you catch a smell of yourself?

Joe Rogan 7:07 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 7:07 And I was like, "Oh my God, I stink." And then-

Joe Rogan 7:09 (laughs)

Rashad Evans 7:10 ... that knowingness said, like, "You stink because you eat dead, rotting flesh." And it said, "If you wanna eat, if you want life, then you eat life." That's what this knowingness said to me. And then I was like, "That's a strange thought to just come into my mind like that."

Joe Rogan 7:24 Hmm.

Rashad Evans 7:25 And then after that, no kidding, like, I just lost my taste for meat. It just k- And I used to eat all kinds of meat. I would eat, I would eat pork, and, and I was, you know, big into pork and big into, like, all kinds of meat, and I was never one of those diet guys at all. But after that happened to me, after I had that experience, it was just like one of those things that, um, (smacks lips) that I just couldn't help but go into. Like, I just-

Joe Rogan 7:49 Hmm.

Rashad Evans 7:49 ... lost the taste for meat.

Joe Rogan 7:51 One trip?

Rashad Evans 7:52 Yeah, I mean, well, it was, well, it was k- It kinda started when I, um, (smacks lips) like, about eight months before that I did the toad.

Joe Rogan 8:02 Hmm.

Rashad Evans 8:03 And then the toad was one that, that really was the catalyst for everything.

Joe Rogan 8:07 There's a lot of people listening going, "What the fuck is he saying? You did the toad?"

Rashad Evans 8:11 Yeah, yeah. So five MeO DMT-

Joe Rogan 8:13 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 8:13 ... which is the toad. And the toad was one that was, I guess, the, the catalyst of busting that gate open and then-

Joe Rogan 8:20 That's a crazy psychedelic.

Rashad Evans 8:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:22 That's a very underrated psychedelic.

Rashad Evans 8:24 Oh my God, it, it, that, that will... (exhales) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:27 That's the, the first really b- I had done mushrooms before, but I did a, a fairly small dose. I mean, fairly small in that I could walk around. I was pretty whacked out, but I could walk around with a couple grams. But the five MeO DMT was the first one where I just ceased to exist. I just stopped, and it made me really aware of ego, really aware of, like, even the way I express myself, the way I would frame w- sentences and say things. I was just ch- I was trying to sound cool-

Rashad Evans 8:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:57 ... or I was trying to portray something in a way, like, not just trying to portray the information, but trying to impress people, and it made me, like, feel real gross. (laughs)

Rashad Evans 9:05 Yeah, well that's, that's the thing, like, when, um, I had my five MeO, MeO experience, it was, uh, man, I, I just never... (sighs) I never thought that, um, consciousness could be so vast and so big, you know? When I, when you, when you have that experience with the five MeO, it just, like, it made this consciousness make, look as if like it was a, a sp- a drop in a bucket, you know? Just, like, a little drop in-

Joe Rogan 9:35 It's-

Rashad Evans 9:35 ... I got to experience the ocean of consciousness, and that right there was, it was the most humbling experience I ever had, you know, just to, uh, feel my ego, who I thought I was, what I thought I was-

Joe Rogan 9:49 Hmm.

Rashad Evans 9:49 ... completely just annihilated and to feel what I actually was. You know, it was, it was crazy.

Joe Rogan 9:56 Yeah, I feel like regular consciousness that most of us exist in most of the time is a veneer, it's a very thin veneer.

Rashad Evans 10:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:03 And through some things you get a taste of what's under the surface, through meditation and yoga and all these different methods that people use, holotropic breathing. You get a taste of what's underneath the surface, Kundalini yoga apparently. Kundalini yoga apparently, I've real- I've never really done it, but some people say you could really trip out if you do it, uh, in a certain way for long periods of time. People have, like, very intense psychedelic experiences akin to DMT.

Rashad Evans 10:29 (smacks lips) Yeah. I had like a, um, (smacks lips) like a Kundalini kind of experience, like an o- awakening where it was like a, uh, as I just had, um, (smacks lips) felt like the top of my head just completely was gone, and it was j- it was like I was just open to all, like, the information. It was, it was a crazy... It was like I had no, no, no, no head. Like, it was just, I was just, information was just pouring into-

Joe Rogan 11:01 Like no roof.

Rashad Evans 11:02 No roof.

Joe Rogan 11:03 Was this from Kundalini?

Rashad Evans 11:05 (smacks lips) No, it, it was, uh, (laughs) it was, it was from mushrooms, but-

Joe Rogan 11:08 Oh.

Rashad Evans 11:08 It was from-

Joe Rogan 11:09 Sorta similar type of-

Rashad Evans 11:09 But, but I felt, but I felt that, um, that that Kundalini experience where you see the light.

Joe Rogan 11:16 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 11:16 It was like this really intense light that, that happens in, in my head and it was just boom, you see...... you see the universe, you know.

Joe Rogan 11:25 Well, you know, the, um, that thing about the center of your head, that's what the, uh, y- there's, there's a lot of speculation on what the Egyptians were trying to draw when they were drawing certain images. But there are certain temples that seem to mimic, uh, certain, certain sh- uh, shapes in these temples that seem to mimic the pineal gland.

Rashad Evans 11:42 Mm.

Joe Rogan 11:42 Like, even the eye, th- there's that famous Egyptian eye that has that sort of dip down-

Rashad Evans 11:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:48 ... and that weird sort of Egyptian shape. Th- there's been a bunch of different scholars that have tried to figure out what exactly that meant. And one o- one of the theories is that that's a cross-section of the pineal gland. And they think that what they were emphasizing was that that is the area where the brain produces all the psychedelic chemicals. And they, they, they w- they speculated this for a long time, but Dr. Rick Strassman, uh, he's the guy that wrote that, uh, book, uh, DMT: The Spirit Molecule, and there was actually a documentary on it that I hosted. And he, um, he's done a bunch of work with this Cottonwood Research Foundation where they've shown now that it exists in live rats, and that it, that it is actually produced by that gland, that DMT is actually produced in these animals by this one particular gland that they assu- associated with spiritual awakening-

Rashad Evans 12:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:37 ... with the third eye. So it actually is a real thing, that feeling that you get.

Rashad Evans 12:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:41 And the thing about mushrooms that's really interesting is mushrooms actually mimic natural human neurochemistry. There's 5-MeO-DMT, there's N,N-DMT, and then what mushrooms, the, what, what it's processed, the way, the way it, uh, your body processes it becomes something called 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine. So it's real- it's all real close.

Rashad Evans 13:06 Real close.

Joe Rogan 13:06 I might have butchered that technical description. But that's, it's r- it's real close to human neurochemistry. So your body a- absorbs it very easily. Your body takes it in. Your body knows what it is.

Rashad Evans 13:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:16 Your body knows to do with it.

Rashad Evans 13:18 See, when I was, um ... I like mushrooms because the mushrooms ... So the 5-MeO is so powerful that you, you can't really get a handle on what happened. Like, I, I came back from being away for, like, 17 minutes, and I'm just like, "Whoa, that was intense." You know, I felt as if, like, I was everything all at the same time, and it was, you know, so many different things that was just happening. But you really can't unpack it because it's, it's, it's incomprehensible to an extent, for the, for the large extent because y- y- you're, you're dealing with, you know, concepts that the human mind can't even grasp because there's no vocabulary to, to speak about it. You know?

Joe Rogan 13:55 Right.

Rashad Evans 13:55 So, um, when I did the mushrooms, the mushrooms were kind of like the rivers and the lakes that leads to the ocean. And it helps me understand-

Joe Rogan 14:05 Mm.

Rashad Evans 14:05 ... how I am part of something so big and something so grand. So when I, when I did my mushr- when I had my mushroom experiences, they were all different in some, in some respect, you know. Like, um, like whenever I, I do go deep, 'cause I like to go deep. I don't, I don't, I don't play around with like the two-

Joe Rogan 14:24 Micro dosing?

Rashad Evans 14:25 Yeah, micro d- ... I mean, I do micro dosing sometimes, but I like to get in there with like five grams, may- you know-

Joe Rogan 14:31 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 14:32 ... 10, you know.

Joe Rogan 14:33 That's how you know it's up.

Rashad Evans 14:34 Big ... Yeah, those big ones.

Joe Rogan 14:35 (inhales deeply)

Rashad Evans 14:35 The big doses where you, you get kinda scared.

Joe Rogan 14:38 Ooh. Once you ate it.

Rashad Evans 14:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:39 And then you know you got like 40 minutes before it kicks in. You're like, "Oh, boy."

Rashad Evans 14:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:43 "There's no turning back now."

Rashad Evans 14:43 There's no turning back now.

Joe Rogan 14:45 (inhales deeply)

Rashad Evans 14:45 And you ... And that, but that's the thing about it when you face that-

Joe Rogan 14:47 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 14:48 ... that fear-

Joe Rogan 14:48 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 14:49 ... of just going deep. And, and it's helped me out so much because, you know, towards the end of my career, like, I just didn't, I didn't finish the way I wanted to, you know. And I felt like, you know, after I came back from my injuries, I just wasn't the same f- fighter anymore. I just was not.

Joe Rogan 15:04 Were you not the same physically or was it mentally?

Rashad Evans 15:07 It was physical, but it also, it became mental because it wa- because physically I just didn't feel the same, you know. I didn't feel like I, I ever regained the power back in, in my legs. And for the most part, my legs were everything, you know.

Joe Rogan 15:18 What were the injuries?

Rashad Evans 15:20 I had two ACL surgeries on my, on my right knee. And that completely just, uh, it, it changed everything for me because, you know, being a smaller, like, heavyweight, all of my power was all in my legs, you know.

Joe Rogan 15:32 Right.

Rashad Evans 15:32 And whatever I couldn't make up for in the size department up top, I was usually able to make up for with the power in my legs, you know.

Joe Rogan 15:39 Is that related to the injury that you got when you were at Jackson's and Diego Sanchez crashed into you?

Rashad Evans 15:45 No, that was ... So that was a different injury. So that was, uh, MCL.

Joe Rogan 15:48 Okay.

Rashad Evans 15:48 But it was on my left knee. So the right knee was the-

Joe Rogan 15:51 Okay.

Rashad Evans 15:51 ... one that got injured.

Joe Rogan 15:52 That always drove me crazy 'cause I'm like, "Why the fuck is a guy training for-

Rashad Evans 15:55 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:55 ... a world title fight, uh, in a regular class w- where everybody knows-

Rashad Evans 15:59 I know.

Joe Rogan 15:59 ... people collide into people in regular classes all the time, with millions of dollars on the line."

Rashad Evans 16:03 Crazy. I know. But th-

Joe Rogan 16:04 And I see that all the time, though, in top gyms.

Rashad Evans 16:06 And, but that ... See that, see that's, that's, that's where the, the training has gone. Like, like before where you, we would train like maniacs. We would train crazy as hell and put ourselves in some crazy situations.

Joe Rogan 16:15 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 16:16 And you, and you try to put yourself in those situations because you, like, "You know, I did it before, and I've done it so many times, and nothing has happened." But when you start to move up and there's more on the line, then you always have to take every single precaution because you can't afford to take a step back, you know.

Joe Rogan 16:32 Right.

Rashad Evans 16:33 And, um, for me, once I had my knee injuries though, I just mentally was not the same person. And when I competed, I wasn't the same person. And then it'd affect me because then I'm like, "You know, I'm not the same person."

Joe Rogan 16:45 Did you lose the ability to explode with your knees? Did you have meniscus damage as well?

Rashad Evans 16:51 Um, I had meniscus damage.

Joe Rogan 16:52 Wow.

Rashad Evans 16:52 I lost the ability to explode, and I lost, um ... It would get tired. My leg would get tired, you know. And it didn't have the same bounce, the same rhythm.

Joe Rogan 17:00 Mm.

Rashad Evans 17:00 And it kinda felt, it kinda felt heavy. And I couldn't really feel it in the front. You know, the front part of my knee, uh, I couldn't really feel it. I had a little-

Joe Rogan 17:08 Uh, did you have a patella tendon graft?

Rashad Evans 17:10 I had a patella tendon graft.

Joe Rogan 17:11 So they cut the front open-

Rashad Evans 17:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:13 ... and then they take the piece of the bone. They take a slice of the patella tendon, the piece of the bone on the bottom, and then they replace your ACL with that?

Rashad Evans 17:20 Correct.

Joe Rogan 17:20 Yeah, I did that too. It takes a long time to get that-

Rashad Evans 17:23 Long time.

Joe Rogan 17:23 ... feeling back.

Rashad Evans 17:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:24 It took me more than a year before it felt right. And then even then if I was on my knees, it would hurt like hell.

Rashad Evans 17:29 See, and that's the thing. Like, I still, to this day, like, I still have dead spots where I can't feel in my knee, you know.

Joe Rogan 17:34 Where it's numb in the front.

Rashad Evans 17:35 Yeah, it's numb.

Joe Rogan 17:36 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 17:36 And I think it had to do with a lot because I had two of the knee surgeries back to back. Like, when I was only healing up from my first one, then it ruptured again, so then-

Joe Rogan 17:45 Ugh.

Rashad Evans 17:45 ... I had to go back in and get it done, you know. The first time it was with a cadaver.

Joe Rogan 17:49 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 17:50 And then the cadaver tissue didn't take.But it, I didn't know that til like almost a year later. And then it slipped out, just training normally.

Joe Rogan 17:58 Fuck.

Rashad Evans 18:00 Yeah, so-

Joe Rogan 18:00 ACLs are brutal.

Rashad Evans 18:01 Oh my gosh, it was s- it's, it's, it's the worst, man. It's the worst. And I, I admire guys who can come back and look phenomenal and, and, and do it, you know, still. Because when you mess up your knee, you know, for me, it just kinda mentally just-

Joe Rogan 18:15 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 18:15 ... it messed me up a bit.

Joe Rogan 18:17 How much physical rehab did you have to do for that?

Rashad Evans 18:20 Man, I did a lot. I did years worth of it, just, you know, the first time I, I didn't do it as well as I could've because I'm like, "Ah, you know, I'll bounce back pretty easy." And I did. Like, I felt like, uh, I was bouncing back pretty easy. But when it went the second time, then it was harder because not only was I healing from the ACL, but then my knee was healing in general just from, you know, the previous surgery and then plus this surgery. Then I had something different because in the first surgery it wasn't, it wasn't too invasive-

Joe Rogan 18:48 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 18:48 ... because I wasn't using my own, uh, my own tissue. But when I-

Joe Rogan 18:51 That cadaver one is nice. It's-

Rashad Evans 18:52 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:53 ... it's easy.

Rashad Evans 18:53 It's easy if it works.

Joe Rogan 18:54 Right.

Rashad Evans 18:55 If your body takes it.

Joe Rogan 18:55 How long did it take before it broke, blew out again?

Rashad Evans 18:58 Man, that was almost a year. I was training for another fight thinking I could f- get back in shape and fight again. And then when I was training for that fight, it blew out again.

Joe Rogan 19:06 Hmm.

Rashad Evans 19:07 Yeah, I was, I was scheduled to fight Gustafsson and then AJ ended up taking that fight instead.

Joe Rogan 19:12 Hmm.

Rashad Evans 19:12 But it was, um, it, it was, it was one that, that just, you know, it was like a ... First of all, when I was out for two years healing from injury, you know, I got to see what it was like to when, when all the cameras stopped flashing, when people stopped caring to get your pictures, when ... You know, that whole feeling, that whole feeling that just, that happens when you mi- when you, when you hit that transitional point and stop becoming that guy. And, um, it was difficult transition at first because, you know, even though I always told myself I would never, you know, put myself in a mindset of being just that fighter, sooner or later you become just that fighter. And, and that's what happened to me. So when I had to, uh-

Joe Rogan 19:54 Meaning that you weren't the best.

Rashad Evans 19:56 Well, not, not just the best.

Joe Rogan 19:57 That you weren't elite.

Rashad Evans 19:58 Right, yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:59 World class.

Rashad Evans 20:00 I just wasn't, I wasn't elite world class fighter like I used to be.

Joe Rogan 20:02 Right.

Rashad Evans 20:02 I wasn't on that level anymore, you know?

Joe Rogan 20:04 Right.

Rashad Evans 20:04 And that, that, that was something for me that was just like, "Goddamn," you know?

Joe Rogan 20:08 Well, your use of your legs was so pivotal, it was so-

Rashad Evans 20:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:11 It was so huge for you, like when that, in that Rampage fight. I remember that opening sequence when you just darted after him and blasted him with the right hand. It was so fast, like-

Rashad Evans 20:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:20 ... he didn't even know what the fuck was happening. But as soon as the bell rang you were on him and you cracked him quick.

Rashad Evans 20:26 And-

Joe Rogan 20:26 I was like, "That is some serious explosion."

Rashad Evans 20:28 And that, and that was even, in that fight I couldn't even wrestle like the last four weeks of that fight because I had a, uh, I pulled my hamstring in that fight. So I was just really just drilling up until that fight for the last four weeks.

Joe Rogan 20:40 Oof.

Rashad Evans 20:41 So and when I came out like that, I was like, I was little insecure and I was like, "You know what? I'm just gonna see what would happen if I go." And then it worked. Yeah, I was like, "Okay, I still got some spring."

Joe Rogan 20:51 (laughs)

Rashad Evans 20:52 But-

Joe Rogan 20:53 It worked perfect.

Rashad Evans 20:53 Yeah. So, um, yeah, so, so when I, when I was into my career and just kinda getting m- you know, kind of f- trying to figure out like what, what's next for me, you know? Um, it, it was hard, you know? It was just a hard place because, um, you know, I didn't really have anybody to talk to. I didn't really know what I was gonna do next in my life, you know? And then when I started fighting again, I still was in that place where I just wasn't, you know, totally back to fighting. My mentality ... Because fighting is, is, is something mentally that it takes, i- it takes a certain mentality for, you know? And, and for me, fighting was something that I did to, uh, exorcize some demons a bit, you know?

Joe Rogan 21:36 Hmm.

Rashad Evans 21:36 But, but having some time away from the sport, it allowed me to figure other ways to exorcize those demon- demons and, you know, figure out some things around them, you know, the things that made me mad and things that were my fuel before. I kind of made peace with them.

Joe Rogan 21:50 Hmm.

Rashad Evans 21:51 And in making peace with a lot of the things that I was using for my fuel, it just changed the way I fought and the way I seen fighting. So coming back to fight, I just wasn't that same fighter anymore.

Joe Rogan 22:02 Hmm.

Rashad Evans 22:03 And then when I got to the point where I was like, "Man, I can't keep myself." Like, I was like, "Man, I'm, I'm not fighting the way I wanna fight." And, you know, there's, I mean, what's the point if I can't go and compete the way I want to? I'm only torturing myself. So then I decided to retire. But then when I retired, I still was in that space where I was like, "Man, there's still something missing." So then when I did the 5-MeO-DMT, that kind of put things in perspective in a, in a whole different way, you know? And it, and it just, um, it, it changed me. It changed me a lot. It changed the way that, you know, like I said, the way I think, the way I eat, everything, everything about it, you know? So it was, um, it was so cathartic in so many ce- in so many, uh, senses of the word, you know?

Joe Rogan 22:48 Do you think that something like that would be really beneficial for fighters that are in the twilight of their career?

Rashad Evans 22:54 I think, I think it could be. I think, I think every fighter gets to a point where, um, you fight enough, then fighting, it kinda, it kinda, you kinda get in a weird space about it. And, you know, I've seen fighters go through that period where they just kinda like figuring out th- "Why, why am I still doing this?" You know, they've had-

Joe Rogan 23:10 Hmm.

Rashad Evans 23:10 ... great moments inside the cage, but then they have those down moments. And those down moments are the moments where it's harder to come back from. And I think those are the times where you, you know, a psychedelic or something like that could put things in perspective and, and allow the fighter to see the why behind the reason they're doing it, and maybe create a new why.

Joe Rogan 23:33 Yeah. You're so different, it's funny. You know, um, I've noticed that about you over the last few years of just, I don't get to see you that often.

Rashad Evans 23:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:40 And when I get to see you, over the last few years, I'm like, "Wow, something has changed in Rashad." Like, you're, you're more ... I mean, I hate to use the word spiritual, but you seem like a more spiritual, more peaceful guy. I had noticed that. So that's why I was really interested to have this conversation and see what your journey was.

Rashad Evans 23:57 Yeah. It, it's, it's been, it's been one hell of a journey, man. You know, um-You know, uh, I just, uh, I teamed up with some people in Denver, uh, one of my good friends, Del Jolly out in Denver, you know, uh, he's the one who told me about the medicine, about the medicine, the toad medicine and, um, after that, we just kinda continued to always link up and we'd do, you know, a bunch of ceremonies together. We'd do ayahuasca and just, um, just make sure we always had that connection. But it was, uh, through working with him, uh, you know, I, um, I became, you know, part of this group, Unlimited Sciences. And Unlimited Sciences, what we were doing is, um, you know, we- we've been able to, uh... We want to make psilocybin usage because Del Jolly was one of the guys who, who, um, got, who was on the committee who got it approved for Denver, uh, decriminalizing.

Joe Rogan 24:50 Hmm.

Rashad Evans 24:50 He was one of the guys who, who, who made that possible, so-

Joe Rogan 24:52 Do you know how it works? So are you allowed to possess a certain amount of psilocybin in Denver? Is that how it works?

Rashad Evans 24:59 Um, I'm not really too sure exactly how it, it all works, uh, with that. But I think that they're still working out the details of, about how it's going to be, what you can possess on, on the, uh, on the legal side. But, um, with Unlimited Sciences, you know, we've, uh, we, we've been able to, um, take the... We wanna take the psilocybin experience where it's one that people can go through for, for healing and help and get consistent, uh, consistent information, consistent data on, you know, the, the full spectrum on how you can use it in the ways it's used. So we've, uh, teamed up, and this has never been done before, we teamed up with John Hopkins University and we're gonna be part of their study and we're gonna do, like the first real-world, real-world study where we go out and, and, uh, you know, take information from people. You know, people from 18 and up who can speak English can sign up for our, um, our study and, you know, what you do is you go and you fill out a questionnaire and everything is, is, um, HIPAA protected so no one has to worry about, you know, getting in trouble for what their, their usage of, um, psilocybin. But, um, you know, John Hopkins is taking all this information and we're, we're collecting it for him and, you know, what we wanna do is we wanna be able to give this back to them so that they can see on which way they wanna direct their clinical research, you know. And what that can do is, you know, with, with the Unlimited Sciences, it, it comes from, uh, this group called R- Realm of Caring and Realm of Caring is out in Denver and Realm of Caring was for, uh, medical refugees during the whole, um... when there was, uh... Medical refugees for, for cannabis who couldn't use it in their state came to Denver where they were able to use it. But when they first came there, there wasn't, there wasn't, you know, any information on how much you're to use because, uh, Heather Jackson and this other girl who started it, her name is Paige, they started the Realm of Caring and it was just them. They were treating their child and their children, they had seizures and epilepsy and stuff like that, so they wanted... They tried everything in the medical field to help them but they couldn't, could not help them with that. So then they went to cannabis and there was only two of them doing this so they didn't really have much information to go back from. So then they would share information amongst each other and then they would ask other people and then through networking, they created this huge community of people with data and then they started to come with more and more data and then they started working with John Hopkins University and made a protocol and everything else. Now the Realm of Caring help thousands of families all over the world just with the information and data they, they've been able to collect.

Joe Rogan 27:44 That's awesome. John Hopkins has been involved in psilocybin research for a while, right? They had something that they did on near death patients.

Rashad Evans 27:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:52 Or pe- people that are close to death and alleviating the, the, the fear of passing.

Rashad Evans 27:57 Yeah. And that's, um, and that, and that's, and that's one thing that they, they've, they're, they're very interested in diving into that, the mind aspect and everything.

Joe Rogan 28:05 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 28:06 And I think that the real world study will be good because what it does is it allows, you know, it allows them to put their money and their resources into where people are actually using it and the things that are interesting to the people, you know. So, I mean, it's one thing to have it in a clinic, clinical setting, but it's another thing to do it on your own and-

Joe Rogan 28:25 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 28:25 ... be able to get the results from it. So hopefully this study with John Hopkins University, it, um, it definitely changes games and, and puts things on a level where people can get the healing they need from the mushrooms.

Joe Rogan 28:36 Have you read any McKenna stuff?

Rashad Evans 28:38 Um, a little bit. I, I, uh, I follow McKenna a bit, you know, uh, I li- I listen to him quite a bit.

Joe Rogan 28:46 Yeah. Fascinating guy. Listen to-

Rashad Evans 28:47 Fascinating guy.

Joe Rogan 28:47 He has a weird, very weird voice, right?

Rashad Evans 28:49 We- weird voice, but, I mean-

Joe Rogan 28:50 But hypnotic almost. Yeah.

Rashad Evans 28:51 Yeah. You, you can't... I, I mean, I list the hours of McKenna and just his understanding and breakdown of, of, uh, of mushrooms is, is crazy.

Joe Rogan 28:58 Well, I'm friends with his brother and his, his brother is a- another genius, really fascinating character who's also an outspoken psychedelic proponent and, uh, he lives up in, uh, British Columbia now. And he's, uh, he's a big proponent of one of Den- Terence had a, a theory that Dennis subscribes to called, um, the Stoned Ape Theory.

Rashad Evans 29:18 Ah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:19 Do you know this theory?

Rashad Evans 29:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:20 Yeah. And this is a really controversial theory, but fascinating that they believe that... At least Terence, Terence had this idea that one of the catalysts for human evolution that changed us from, uh, lower primates to human beings, uh, was the consumption of psilocybin and that animals, you know, these, these pre- pre-human, uh, primates would flip over cow patties and experiment by eating grubs and, and bugs and things that they'd find under there and they would also eat the mushrooms that would grow on the cow patties and the doubling of the human brain size over a period of two million years is this gigantic-

Rashad Evans 29:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:58 ... mystery. Like, they have no idea what happened. I mean, it's a...... apparently, according to biologists, it's the biggest mystery in the fossil record, that the human brain doubled. And not just that any organ would double in size over a period of two million years, but that the organ responsible for the theory of evolution in the first place doubled over two million years is really interesting.

Rashad Evans 30:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:20 But it coincides with climate change and coincides with these rainforests ... And this is all Terence's work I'm, I'm repeating. It coincides with these rainforests receding into grasslands and then these ungulates, these cow, cow-like animals that would live on these grasslands and eat the cow and take shits. And then the manure would grow ... Or, uh, the psilocybin rather would grow in the manure and they, they would follow these cows around and then eat their mushrooms that would gl- grow in their manure. And it also coincides with the earliest, earliest civilizations would all worship cattle. Like, uh, Chacal Hill-

Rashad Evans 30:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:58 ... which is one of the earliest known civilizations. They had these ... It was a real cattle worshiping, uh, sort of a ... I don't, I don't wanna say a cult, but, the, the way their culture would operate, they worshipped cattle. And some could say, "Well that's 'cause they ate them and they used their milk." I'm sure, I'm sure, that had something to do with it, but like the Hindus don't even eat them, they just worship-

Rashad Evans 31:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:21 ... them. Imagine that? You got a billion people living in a place, everyone's starving and they're not eating the cows. They're not eating the most delicious animal-

Rashad Evans 31:27 Right.

Joe Rogan 31:27 ... on the planet. Well it's because they grew mushrooms! And the ancient Hindu scripts like Soma, is one of the, the main sacraments that they would talk about and no one really understood. To this day, they're not exactly sure what Soma is, but it's some sort of a psychedelic sacrament and it probably was a combination of many things, but a big one was most likely psilocybin was a part of that. And that sort of corresponded with their relationship with cows, that they had this, this worship of cattle, th- they wouldn't eat them and the reason is 'cause God came out of their butt.

Rashad Evans 32:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:04 In their eyes, you know, they would make the manure, the mushrooms would grow in the manure and, I mean there's all sorts of mushroom iconography in all of their ancient religious artwork and-

Rashad Evans 32:14 I mean, I think mushrooms have ... I, I, I know mushrooms have played a big part in our society-

Joe Rogan 32:19 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 32:19 I mean, and in our civilization and our ancient civilization.

Joe Rogan 32:23 For sure.

Rashad Evans 32:23 And I don't think it's been, you know, properly covered the way that, uh, it could be, but-

Joe Rogan 32:27 Right.

Rashad Evans 32:28 Um, it, it, it's amazing because the minute you, you eat a mushroom at the right dosage, you feel it. You feel the fact that it's like, oh this is something ancient because there, there's something that happens when, when you go to that place where you, you, you lose the, you lose the self.

Joe Rogan 32:48 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 32:49 When you lose the self, then there's, there's something that, that happens that's, that's just magical. There really is no way to, to explain it or dress it up with words. It's just, it's just a ma- something magical that happens once you reach that level.

Joe Rogan 33:03 Yeah, whenever I have these conversations with people, there's two types of people. There's people like you that have had the experiences that go, "Mm-hmm." And then there's people that have no experience with it at all that look at you like, "Pfft, yeah it's mushrooms." But I feel bad for those people.

Rashad Evans 33:16 I do too. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:17 Because I know how I used to think and I would've dismissed it the same way. I would've said this is the foolish notions of frivolous, spiritual people that are just being ridiculous and they think, "Oh it's all about the mushrooms, man."

Rashad Evans 33:31 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:32 And, but it is! It i- if you do it, you'll realize like, oh well ... If you do any real potent, breakthrough psychedelic, any real breakthrough psy-psychedelic experience is gonna make you humble. It's gonna make you realize like oh, there's more to this than everyday consciousness.

Rashad Evans 33:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:49 There's more to this experience, this existence. There's something way bigger and you only can tap into it through a variety of different methods, whether it's, you know, w- what, you know, name your psychedelic or name your trance-like state that people can go into. There's a lot of different ways to tap into it but once you do, you realize like this is not ... This little thin thing that we're touching right now, this is not everything.

Rashad Evans 34:12 Right. A- and that's the thing about it. It, it really just cuts through the whole materialism of everything.

Joe Rogan 34:16 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 34:16 It really shows that, um, materialism is just a, a product of consciousness, you know? And sometimes we, we tend to think that, you know, our, our, our consciousness is a product of the materialism but, you know, at the end of the day, consciousness is everything.

Joe Rogan 34:30 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 34:31 And, and I ... When I did my toad experience, I almost felt as if like I'm not really here and I'm really somewhere else just projecting my consciousness to here, and it f- seemed as if like when I smoked the toad, the venom severed that connection and the connection wasn't able to come here on Earth and I was just really where I, I really am. That's what it felt like.

Joe Rogan 34:56 Hmm.

Rashad Evans 34:56 And then when I came back to my body, I remember feeling like, like I didn't wanna come back.

Joe Rogan 35:01 (laughs)

Rashad Evans 35:01 And actually, actually it was saying like, "Please don't go. Please don't go-"

Joe Rogan 35:05 Wow.

Rashad Evans 35:05 ... when I came back.

Joe Rogan 35:06 Wow. I felt like I was ... I dissolved and I became a part of everything. I felt like, like I always tend to think of life as like my own view of experience, it's right here. Right? My life is right here. Now, right now it's in this room. Later on it'll be at The Comedy Store.

Rashad Evans 35:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 35:26 There's places I go, my life is where those places are. But when I had my first MAO DM- M5MAO DMT experience, it felt like no, no, no, it's all together.

Rashad Evans 35:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:38 You're in the middle of this infinite soup of life.

Rashad Evans 35:42 Of life.

Joe Rogan 35:42 And there's no one spot.

Rashad Evans 35:44 Right.

Joe Rogan 35:45 That spot is a m- your imagination.

Rashad Evans 35:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:47 It's like your own ... The limitations of your biology that we have kept from the time that we were small little mammals, to the time that we were lower primates, to the time that we're human beings. The limit, the biological instincts to survive and to preserve our DNA and to carry that DNA on, uh, DNA on. All of those instincts are the reason why we're here but also so limiting.

Rashad Evans 36:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 36:13 Because they, they keep your consciousness bottled up in the location that you're at.

Rashad Evans 36:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:17 It keeps your, your feeling of life contained to wherever you're at, at that moment and staying safe and then keeping people paying attention to you and-

Rashad Evans 36:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:26 ... making sure you got the coolest shit and-

Rashad Evans 36:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:28 ... all the things that seem so silly when you trip.

Rashad Evans 36:31 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. When, um-When it, when I fall away, and the feeling of falling away, and- and not being who I, who I think I am, it is almost the most freeing feeling, but at the same time, it is one of the scariest.

Joe Rogan 36:45 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 36:45 It's one of the scariest at the same time. But it's, um, it's necessary, and it's, and it's necessary in order to, to reach a certain point o- of understanding, you know. When- when you reach a certain point of understanding, of going inside, then you don't need a guru- guru. You don't need anyone to, to, to drop insight or knowledge, because all the knowledge and insight, it's there if you go deep enough. And you know how to go deep enough, you know, and you understand the fact that, you know, um, there's this, there's- there's just this knowingness. And it's hard to explain. Like it sounds crazy to say-

Joe Rogan 37:23 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 37:24 ... but there's just this knowingness out there, and you can tap into it.

Joe Rogan 37:28 Yeah. There's something out there for sure. What's interesting to me is some people have a way better grasp of the English language, and they're way better at describing things.

Rashad Evans 37:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:37 The way, they're way better at sort of, um, putting trips into perspective, 'cause e- everyone sucks at it. Even the best people suck at it. I'm terrible at it. I've- I've- I've described it the same way you described it. There's not really words for it, you know.

Rashad Evans 37:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:51 You do your best, but it's so poor. Like you're- you're- you're... just the ability that words have to convey the experience, there, there's no words that are correct.

Rashad Evans 38:03 Yeah. I-

Joe Rogan 38:03 They're, they don't even get in the neighborhood. They get, they wrap around it, they try.

Rashad Evans 38:07 Right. And even, and even in a state, I remember being in a state where, um, where I was in, on what, one of my deepest trips, and I'm in the trip, and my friend looks over at me, and then I wave him over because I wanna tell him the secret that I found about, you know, about consciousness and about existence. But, um, I couldn't tell him because the- the knowingness is telling me if I tell him, then I'm not gonna be able to come back and live, you know. I had to go, I had to, I had to leave this earth. That's what it was telling me. So I remember just sitting there just like, "Man, I- I wanna be able to, to tell him, and be able to convey to him in words what I'm feeling." The only thing that came out of my mouth was, (laughs) "Just go sit over there. It'll come to you." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:50 (laughs)

Rashad Evans 38:50 Because that's what happened to me. Like I was si-... like it-

Joe Rogan 38:52 Right.

Rashad Evans 38:53 Like I was, I was in his, I was in his yard, and, uh, I just went in, I went and walked, and as I was walking this knowingness told me, like I- I was walking barefoot in this grass and I kept getting my feet poked, and the knowingness told me, it was like, you know, it told me the path to walk. And it said, um, the reason why I'm stepping on these, these, uh, getting pricked is 'cause I'm stepping on live grass. Step on the dead spots where there's no... And it just came to me, just that clear, and I just started doing it, and I wasn't getting pricked by any grass no more. Then it told me to sit down, and then I sat down, and then I just had like the most profound, just realizations just hit me. Like it, it was like, it was like it was coming out of the sun. It sounds crazy to say that.

Joe Rogan 39:36 (laughs)

Rashad Evans 39:36 It w-... I was outside, and I went and I was looking at the sun, and it was like the sun transitioned to something else. It was, just became very deep and it had layers of... it was, it was very, very trippy. But during that experience, I remember looking around and seeing everyone that I was with, and laughing to myself saying like, "They would not believe this, but I'm actually every single one of them." And that, and that was like a thought that I remember thinking and feeling like i- like I'm feeling myself right now, and it bugged me out. It- it, I know, it's- it's deep. It's- it's so deep, man.

Joe Rogan 40:16 Do you still train?

Rashad Evans 40:18 All the time. Yeah, I train all the time.

Joe Rogan 40:19 You train all the time?

Rashad Evans 40:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:20 Do you... what, do you feel different like even when you're hitting things?

Rashad Evans 40:25 Yeah. I've, I've... but not, but not in a way like I feel like, "Oh man, I feel bad." I- I don't feel like that. I just feel like, um, I ma-... ever since I was able to- to kind of come back after I, this whole transition happened, I feel like I have a better idea on competing now, like as far as like my mindset for competing i- is better than it was before, just because I don't, um... uh, my ego's not so attached to it as it was, you know. And- and- and I'm able to go out and just give my best in whatever it is, it is, and- and completely just be like, "Oh, it..." you know, it's whatever. And- and it's easy to say now that I'm not competing where it counts for anything. But for me before, even in practice, it felt like something. If I lost in practice, then that, it would stick with me for a couple of days, you know, I'll be, I'll be upset about that. But now I can just go in and just train and, you know, and it doesn't, it doesn't stay with me like it would before.

Joe Rogan 41:24 Do you feel like though that to be an elite fighter maybe you need that burning desire to the point where mistakes burn, they hurt, and I know a- as a comedian, I mean there's a, there's a, there's a parallel there, like where, when... if I'm really working hard and really concentrating hard, anything I say that is stupid or comes off wrong or I try something that doesn't work, it will fuck with me for days.

Rashad Evans 41:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:54 Just all day long. Even in conversation. I'm having f- fun with some friends and I say something stupid like that, and like it'll sit in my head for-

Rashad Evans 42:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:03 I'll wake up in the middle of the night to piss going, "Why the fuck did you say that?"

Rashad Evans 42:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:07 (laughs) It's the worst.

Rashad Evans 42:08 No, you- you do, you do need that a- as an athlete, but at the same time...

Joe Rogan 42:11 Particularly as a fighter, right?

Rashad Evans 42:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:13 Because you- you have t-... I mean it's so... the, the difference between a champion, you know this about... m- more than anybody, between a champion and a good fighter are so close. It's such a...

Rashad Evans 42:24 It's so close.

Joe Rogan 42:24 It's so close.

Rashad Evans 42:25 It's so close. It is.

Joe Rogan 42:26 And sometimes it's that fucking fire, that anger, that fear, that drive inside of you to be elite, to be the best, and sometimes that...... comes with every practice, you have to win, everything you have to do, every fucking training session. You, you have to burn it out. If you don't, you feel like you're less than you could be.

Rashad Evans 42:49 Yeah. I, I, I agree with that. But there's also, it's a other side of that too, where there's that, that, that blissful ignorance. And that blissful ignorance is where you just go out and do something and you do it 100% great all the time-

Joe Rogan 43:02 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 43:03 ... just because you enjoy it, and there's not-

Joe Rogan 43:04 Right.

Rashad Evans 43:04 ... the pressure of, "Oh, I have to do it a certain kind of way." Like, for instance, when, when, um, when Jon Jones was first competing, Jon Jones, he competed so freely because, you know, it was just, like, he wa- it was just in his nature. Like, he was just so creative, and-

Joe Rogan 43:23 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 43:23 ... and he fought different because of... You know, he fought from that place of just creativity, that ignorance that, that, that... ignorant bliss. You know, it, he couldn't be beat, he didn't believe he could be beat. And, you know, he would fight that way. And he would do some genius stuff in there just because of that, you know. But then, when you have those experiences where you, you know, you've been caught in a fight or you've, you know, you made some mistakes in there, then you do know better. But then those, those, those thoughts, it actually slows you down a bit too, because you're not fully reacting. You're, you're thinking, uh, a hair-

Joe Rogan 43:56 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 43:57 ... where before it was just kind of, like, a reaction.

Joe Rogan 43:59 Yeah, I talk about his opening fight, the opening sequence of his fight with Shogun. I mean, he's 23 years old, he's fighting for the world title, and he opens up with a flying knee.

Rashad Evans 44:08 Right.

Joe Rogan 44:08 Who the fuck does that?

Rashad Evans 44:10 That's, that, that was-

Joe Rogan 44:11 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 44:11 ... that, that was-

Joe Rogan 44:11 That was-

Rashad Evans 44:12 ... that was that dumb and young. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:14 Yeah. Yeah.

Rashad Evans 44:14 You know what I'm saying? That, that's the best way to say it. But, at the same time, that, that, that blissful ignorance, that's what made... That was his blueprint for so long, you know.

Joe Rogan 44:22 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 44:22 And, and he's turned it into a whole fighting style, just that, you know, letting it all hang out, letting it fly. And that's what worried me, um... That's why I thought, in his fight with Dominic Reyes, it was gonna be a closer fight, because of the fact that Dominic Reyes now had that, what Jon used to have, being that, that blissful ignorance.

Joe Rogan 44:41 Hmm.

Rashad Evans 44:41 He didn't really know how much, you know, how better Jon was or didn't even care. He was just kind of like, "Uh, I can win." You know what I'm saying? He-

Joe Rogan 44:47 Right.

Rashad Evans 44:47 ... he was so confident in himself, almost in a, in an ignorant and blissful way, but it worked out for him, you know?

Joe Rogan 44:53 Well, what's interesting about that fight is, first of all, it's a great argument for five-round championship fights-

Rashad Evans 44:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:58 ... because, for the first three rounds, Dominic Reyes was winning.

Rashad Evans 45:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:02 The question is (clears throat) whether he won the third round. That's the one I believe that's up for grabs. Most people that I've talked to think Jon won the last two clearly, most people. Most people that I've talked to that are experts, most people, few d- disagree, believe that Dominic Reyes won the first three. And the third round is the one that seems to be, you could go, "Well, Dominic scored more, but it was close enough where you could see someone giving it to Jon, particularly since Jon was pressing the action, Jon was pushing forward. Maybe you could give it to Jon." But they thought Dominic won it. But they said, "If there's a disputable round, it is that third round."

Rashad Evans 45:42 Yeah, I agree.

Joe Rogan 45:43 But the... One fucking judge gave Jon-

Rashad Evans 45:46 That was crazy.

Joe Rogan 45:46 ... four rounds to one. That's insane.

Rashad Evans 45:48 Yeah, that was insane.

Joe Rogan 45:48 This is the same judge that when Ab- um-, I believe Ab- lo- Luke Thomas was talking about this, I'm, I'm sorry if I'm wrong 'cause I'm not saying the judge's name because I'm not sure if I'm correct, but I believe it's the same judge that, um, Trevin Giles who fought, uh, James Krause, um... The d- Giles and Krause was an amazing fight. Giles won a, wound up winning the decision, but the first round, Krause had his back for four minutes, and the ref- or the judge gave that round to Giles.

Rashad Evans 46:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:19 Which is insane. I mean-

Rashad Evans 46:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:21 ... for four minutes, Krause had his back, was, uh, the guy was fighting off chokes. Krause was real close to submitting him couple times during those four minutes. And the judge, the same judge who gave four rounds to Jon Jones, gave that first round to Giles where there was a dude on his back for four-

Rashad Evans 46:39 That's crazy.

Joe Rogan 46:39 ... fucking minutes.

Rashad Evans 46:40 That, that, that... Mo- most of the round. And maybe even a fucking more egregious f- fight was, um, uh, Andre Ewell versus, uh, Jonathan Martinez. That fight was fucking crazy. That fight was crazy. That was the most crazy one. Martinez won- Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:00 ... that fight.

Rashad Evans 47:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:01 Martinez won that fight. Ewell broke his arm, I think. He, so, I'm not sure if it's a broken arm, but he had a significant injury to his right hand early in the fight, somewhere in between either the first or the second round, not sure. But he really couldn't throw a right hand, and it was kind of hanging, you could kind of see it was hanging. And Martinez put in work. It was an amazing performance by him, and he got fucked over, man, real bad. It was bad decision-making. There was a bunch of bad fights. There was a bunch of bad decisions.

Rashad Evans 47:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:28 It wasn't just one.

Rashad Evans 47:29 I know.

Joe Rogan 47:29 There was, like, four or five on a, a card of, what, 12 fights, 11, 12 fights? I forget how many it was from the or- or- opening prelims. There was bad decisions, just almost like people who don't know what they're seeing.

Rashad Evans 47:43 Yeah. And that, and that, and that's crazy too, especially when we reach the point that we have in mixed martial arts, you know. I think that we've, we- we've turned a corner, and that mean the fact that there's- there's so many, uh, so much out there, so much knowledge out there on the sport and everything else like that. And if you're gonna be judging it, you gotta at least know when somebody is, is winning a round. I mean, you know, there- there's aspects of, of Jon's game that, that was, you know, he'd score some points, you know, he was always moving forward with the action.

Joe Rogan 48:10 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 48:10 But, um, you know, even when he was moving forward with the action, he wasn't terribly too offensive. He would come with his legs, but, you know, a lot of times, he, he would allow, he would allow, uh, Dominic to kind of be the first one initiating and then moving off. And then sometimes it seemed like he was just kind of chasing him. But, um, you know, I- I think that, uh, it was, it- it was that third round. That third round was that- that hard round to score.

Joe Rogan 48:36 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 48:36 But, uh...You know, it's- I, I, I think that Dom had the edge, but if you gonna beat the champ, then you gotta be the champ.

Joe Rogan 48:46 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 48:46 And I don't think he did that. Jon Jones impressed me so much with the shots that he was able to take. But more or less, the mindset that Jon had. That, that, that mindset that Jon had in those championship rounds, to me, that, that showed that this guy is... You know, he is the total package in, in when it comes to fighting, just mentally speaking. You know, he's, he's somebody who I thou- thought that was frustrated and working through his own frustrating in the fight, for his frustration in the fight i- i- is, is difficult.

Joe Rogan 49:18 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 49:18 And he didn't succumb to his own frustration, and, and he just kept that pressure going and took some big shots from a heavy hitter. But, uh, Dominic Reyes is a problem for anybody.

Joe Rogan 49:27 He's a problem. He's a real problem, especially now that he's-

Rashad Evans 49:30 Oh, gosh.

Joe Rogan 49:30 ... he's got that rub. He touched, touched greatness-

Rashad Evans 49:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:33 ... with Jon-

Rashad Evans 49:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:34 ... who's the greatest ever. I feel like those last two rounds should count more. This is my own personal opinion. But, uh, John Kavanaugh said something on his Twitter page, I believe it was John Kavanaugh, and it reflects exactly how I feel, that if this fight was gonna go on another five rounds, it's pretty fucking clear to me who's gonna win, who's gonna... If this was to the death, Jon Jones is gonna win that fight.

Rashad Evans 49:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:54 You know? It's, if it's to the death, there's no doubt about it in my mind that Jon Jones is eventually gonna get him.

Rashad Evans 49:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:59 Those last two rounds, Dominic Reyes was hurting. You could see him looking, taking big deep breaths and trying to move, and his arms were labored. And Jon just kept pressing-

Rashad Evans 50:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:08 ... kept pressing, kept kicking him, kept punching him, kept trying for the take down. A- and that should mean more. It should mean more towards the end of the fight. At the end of the fight, if you win a decision, but you just, you just got your ass kicked for the last four minutes-

Rashad Evans 50:22 Right.

Joe Rogan 50:22 ... that seems crazy to me that you won the fight.

Rashad Evans 50:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:24 Because, I mean, I know this is a dumb way to think about it, but if we were in a schoolyard, right? If we were in high school and some dude and another dude fought, the dude who's getting the shit beat out of him at the end of the fight is the guy who lost.

Rashad Evans 50:38 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 50:38 When the teachers come and they pull you off that guy-

Rashad Evans 50:40 Yeah, that's it.

Joe Rogan 50:42 ... that's who won.

Rashad Evans 50:42 That's who won the fight.

Joe Rogan 50:42 That's who won.

Rashad Evans 50:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:43 And I know that you can't score a-

Rashad Evans 50:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:45 ... professional sport the way you lo- But it is the rarest of rare professional sports because it's the, the sport of fighting.

Rashad Evans 50:53 Right.

Joe Rogan 50:53 And in fighting, when you're getting your ass kicked, you are, you know, you're supposed to, you're supposed to lose.

Rashad Evans 51:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:00 If you're getting your ass kicked, you lost.

Rashad Evans 51:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:02 But if, and if you're kicking the guy's ass, you win. Sounds crazy, but at the end of that fight, Jon Jones was kicking Dominic Reyes' ass.

Rashad Evans 51:09 He really was.

Joe Rogan 51:10 He was, he was chasing him down. Dominic was taking some big deep breaths. He was firing back, man. He fired back very well in the fourth round. But Jon absorbed... Jon has a fucking hell of a chin too.

Rashad Evans 51:19 Oh, my gosh.

Joe Rogan 51:19 Hell of a chin.

Rashad Evans 51:20 Oh, my gosh.

Joe Rogan 51:21 A hell of a chin. I mean, you can't... He's, he's something special because of everything. It's not h- he's something special because of his physical attributes. He's very tall and long. He's very strong. It's not just his skill. He's got great wrestling, he's got great striking. It is all... And it's his mind too.

Rashad Evans 51:39 Yes.

Joe Rogan 51:39 It's all those things.

Rashad Evans 51:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:40 It's his ability to press forward. It's his ability to break people, his ability to stay on top of you, have that champion's mindset, and to know that he's fought the majority of his career as a world champion, which is fucking crazy.

Rashad Evans 51:56 (laughs) I know, I know.

Joe Rogan 51:56 I mean, almost a decade as the greatest in the world, chasing everybody that he's fought, every single fighter that he's fought. You look at them, they're all, guys like you-

Rashad Evans 52:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:08 ... guys like Machida, world champions. Ra- Rampage, world champions over and over and over again. You go, you go through the, the list of them. Just all these killers, it's just killer after killer. Gustafsson, you know, I mean, you, you just keep going through his entire career. DC twice, stopped him in the second fight. He's a fucking assassin.

Rashad Evans 52:30 And, and the, the most impressive thing about it for me is the fact that, you know, on a physical scale, he's phenomenal. But just mentally speaking, to be able to go through everything that he's gone through, you know, the ups and downs-

Joe Rogan 52:42 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 52:43 ... and what that, what that does to your mind.

Joe Rogan 52:45 Yes.

Rashad Evans 52:46 You know? What that does to your mind and, and just being able to put that to a side or be able to use it in order to go out and still perform as if like he hasn't missed a beat-

Joe Rogan 52:57 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 52:57 ... that is hard because it, it gets to the point, um, you know, you, you get, you get... With anything in life, you get tired of the monotony of it, you get, you get jaded by it.

Joe Rogan 53:07 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 53:07 And he hasn't been jaded by it, and he still goes out there and performs like that.

Joe Rogan 53:11 Well-

Rashad Evans 53:11 That's impressive.

Joe Rogan 53:12 ... I think he needed someone like Dominic to get that fear going too. I think he knew Dominic Reyes physically is a talented guy.

Rashad Evans 53:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:20 He's a great athlete. He has tremendous footwork. His ability to change angles and then fire back is insane.

Rashad Evans 53:26 I know.

Joe Rogan 53:26 It's so good. You saw it in the OSP fight where he knocked him out with like a couple seconds to go.

Rashad Evans 53:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:32 You see it in a lot of... As Jarod Cannoneer fight, he could step back and fire, fire uppercuts, step back and fire that straight left. His ability to change direction is amazing. And I think a lot of that could be attributed to his football, basketball, I mean, um, baseball, like footwork, movement, his ability to explode. All that stuff that he did in other sports, I think directly translates-

Rashad Evans 53:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:54 ... to his ability to move really well inside the octagon. And then on top of it, he's gigantic. He's the same size as Jon-

Rashad Evans 54:01 I know.

Joe Rogan 54:01 ... which is very unusual for Jon to face someone that's his height, and he's really fucking strong too.

Rashad Evans 54:06 That's the, that... Now, that was the intangible that I think that Jon didn't expect. He didn't expect for him to be as strong as he was because-

Joe Rogan 54:13 When he's able to get back up every time like-

Rashad Evans 54:14 Yeah, when he's like-

Joe Rogan 54:15 ... shit.

Rashad Evans 54:15 ... get up like he wasn't even on him.

Joe Rogan 54:17 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 54:17 Like, "Dang, that..."

Joe Rogan 54:18 His legs are fucking-

Rashad Evans 54:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:20 ... huge. You look at Reyes' legs-

Rashad Evans 54:21 Oh, huge. Huge.

Joe Rogan 54:22 Yeah, I mean, he's got tremendous power. I mean, both with his punches, but also with his, his ability to move, man. He was throwing great kicks. He was chopping at Jon's legs. I mean, I, uh, out of any fight in Jon's future...I wanna see a rematch. I really wanna see what Dominic Reyes looks like now with this rub, understanding how close he was, and then the, the amount of conditioning that he's going to have to put himself through-

Rashad Evans 54:47 Right.

Joe Rogan 54:48 ... to be able to do that again, five rounds. And it's not like either guy got fucked up in that fight where they're gonna be severely damaged. It's not like one of those crazy wars where like Adesanya, Kelvin Gastelum. At the end of that fight, I was like, "Oh my God." You know, "I hope Kelvin takes some time off-

Rashad Evans 55:03 Right.

Joe Rogan 55:03 ... after that one." That was chaos, just wildness. It wasn't like that. It was a grueling, difficult, hard fight, but it wasn't a fight where there was so much damage that both Jon and, and, uh, Dominic needed to take a long time off. I feel like you could make that fight in eight months.

Rashad Evans 55:19 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 55:20 And that would be the fight to make.

Rashad Evans 55:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:21 That's, that is a c- that's a crazy rematch.

Rashad Evans 55:24 And, and the thing about it was, surprisingly to see, like, they, like, their faces weren't beat up at all.

Joe Rogan 55:29 No.

Rashad Evans 55:29 And I'm like, "These dudes were landing some shots on each other."

Joe Rogan 55:32 Yeah. Yeah.

Rashad Evans 55:32 And their faces not even-

Joe Rogan 55:33 Yes.

Rashad Evans 55:34 Like, I thought for sure Jon's lip would be all swollen like it was when he fought, uh, Gustafsson, but-

Joe Rogan 55:39 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 55:40 ... he, he took, he took those shots well, man. It, it's-

Joe Rogan 55:42 It's amazing.

Rashad Evans 55:43 It's amazing. But I think that this is exactly what Jon needed in the light heavyweight weight class because, you know, it, it does... It was getting kind of stagnant, and I think it needed some time to mature. But I think, I think Dominic Reyes just said, "Yeah, you better stay here for a little bit." And there's another guy, Corey Anderson.

Joe Rogan 56:00 Oh, yes.

Rashad Evans 56:00 Corey Anderson is somebody-

Joe Rogan 56:02 Oh, yes.

Rashad Evans 56:02 ... listen. I'm, I'm-

Joe Rogan 56:02 That's the dark horse I've been telling everybody.

Rashad Evans 56:04 Yes, um, listen, that's the dark horse, and-

Joe Rogan 56:05 The way he knocked out Johnny Walker-

Rashad Evans 56:07 Yes.

Joe Rogan 56:07 ... and he's angry.

Rashad Evans 56:08 He's angry.

Joe Rogan 56:09 He's angry.

Rashad Evans 56:10 And that's something you never seen Corey-

Joe Rogan 56:11 Yes.

Rashad Evans 56:11 You never seen that before.

Joe Rogan 56:12 After that fight, he was-

Rashad Evans 56:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:14 ... like, letting everybody know, "You fuckers been slipping."

Rashad Evans 56:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:16 "You've been sleeping on me. You guys have been pretending that I don't exist."

Rashad Evans 56:20 That's, that's why-

Joe Rogan 56:20 "I'm out here beating the best in the world."

Rashad Evans 56:22 If he fights Jon Jones, I think that's one that Jon better be like, "All right, I better get serious, or-"

Joe Rogan 56:26 He better be so ready.

Rashad Evans 56:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:28 Yeah, Corey's got... He doesn't have a chip. He's got logs on his shoulder.

Rashad Evans 56:31 I know, he got-

Joe Rogan 56:32 Corey, he's angry.

Rashad Evans 56:33 He's pissed. He's pissed off.

Joe Rogan 56:34 After that Johnny Walker fight, he was so out of character. He's screaming and yelling and fucking-

Rashad Evans 56:38 I know.

Joe Rogan 56:38 You know, he was so... He was angry after he won. He knocked him out in the first round, and then he's mad.

Rashad Evans 56:44 The, the, the years of disrespect, though, like-

Joe Rogan 56:47 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 56:47 And that's, and that's how he trained, though. He always trained with that, that mindset, like, "Oh, they don't respect me," you know?

Joe Rogan 56:52 Yep.

Rashad Evans 56:52 And that's why he worked so hard.

Joe Rogan 56:53 Yes, his endurance is insane.

Rashad Evans 56:55 Oh, my God.

Joe Rogan 56:55 His pace is insane.

Rashad Evans 56:57 Yeah, train- training alongside those guys in, um, in Jersey was probably one of the, the best experience of my career. Training with Mark Henry was, was mind-blowing.

Joe Rogan 57:05 You were telling me about this. You and I had this long conversation-

Rashad Evans 57:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:09 ... about that. Tell me what it's like to work with that guy.

Rashad Evans 57:12 Mark Henry is, is a genius, you know? What he does is he breaks down the game like no one ever, uh, uh, ever, ever trained with before. Um, so for every combination that we throw, every punch is all accounted for with a code. And that code is, uh, specific to, to you and, and to what's im- important in your life and the way you value. So he sits there and he talks, talks to you about, you know, your family, whatnot, and then, you know, he'll make these codes up. And these codes will just be like, for a combination, it'd be, uh, say, a jab, cross, hook, you know? Then he'll, he'll say that is, that's Nia. That's my daughter's name. And then he'll make a whole-

Joe Rogan 57:48 Jesus.

Rashad Evans 57:48 ... whole system of codes with just names. And then when you're sparring, he'll call out the name, and you just gotta know what that technique goes to.

Joe Rogan 57:57 Wow.

Rashad Evans 57:58 There's, there's a bunch of different techniques for different colors, for different movement. And, you know, he can have... He just says it, and it's like he's... Like, when... I watch him go at Frankie 'cause Frankie has the system down the best. Fra- it's like he's controlling Frankie like a con- or like a, like a, like a game. And he's just saying-

Joe Rogan 58:18 Like an Xbox controller.

Rashad Evans 58:19 ... like an Xbox con- Yeah, he's just saying these commands, and Frankie hears him, and then he goes off. And, you know, sometimes like if, if I'm going and I don't see it, he'll say something, I don't see it, I'll like nod it off, and then he'll, he'll say another one. But if he says it, then most of the time I just do it because he sees it and-

Joe Rogan 58:38 Right.

Rashad Evans 58:39 ... you know?

Joe Rogan 58:39 That's crazy to have that kind of confidence in another person.

Rashad Evans 58:42 I, it's, it, well, that's the, well, that's, that's the part of the training that, that you learn. And then, you know, uh, you, you kind of... The good side to that is that you, it makes it easier for when you're just out there fighting. Sometimes it can be diff- difficult if you are too dependent on it, and you just kind of lose the ability to create yourself, you know? But for the most part, um, he does such a good job of breaking it down that, uh, it, it's, it's pretty easy, but it is, it is a, a very technical system to learn. And anybody who gets a chance to work with Mark Henry, I suggest you do it because... Uh, and here's another thing. Mark Henry is one of those guys, like, I stayed at his house when I first, uh, went, went to stay with him. And he doesn't sleep. Like, he'll stay up to like 2:00, 3:00 in the morning watching film. And then he'll go to sleep for a couple hours, and he'll wake up at like 7:00, 7:00 in the morning to go do his, uh, for his pizza shop 'cause he owns a pizza shop. And he has this crazy work schedule, but he, he loves fighting.

Joe Rogan 59:44 It's so weird that a guy runs a successful pizza business, and he's also one of the best trainers in the world.

Rashad Evans 59:48 Yes, and he's-

Joe Rogan 59:49 It's so strange.

Rashad Evans 59:50 And he makes a killing dur-

Joe Rogan 59:51 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 59:51 ... with his pizza shop. He kills it.

Joe Rogan 59:53 I heard his basement gym's amazing.

Rashad Evans 59:55 Oh, it is, it is amazing. His basement gym is where all the magic happens, man. He, uh, he has all the codes written down, and he'll, he tort-, he'll torture you in that basement.

Joe Rogan 1:00:03 (laughs)

Rashad Evans 1:00:03 He'll torture you. He'll, he'll get your mindset like sharp as hell, but he'll, he'll torture you in that, that basement, you know? And it-

Joe Rogan 1:00:09 Well, it's so, such a diverse group of fighters, right? Zabite comes down there.

Rashad Evans 1:00:13 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:13 Marlon Moraes. It's a... He had so many, uh, interesting guys. Edson Barboza. So many interesting guys have gone through that gym.

Rashad Evans 1:00:21 It's, it's so crazy. Like, when I first, um... Like, I was staying there, and I got to train with Zabite a little bit, and I got to live with Zabite and, and the Russian, the Dagestan fighters.

Joe Rogan 1:00:29 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 1:00:29 So it was pretty, pretty cool experience because it, you know, you kind of get to know their culture and just kind of just, uh, just get a different respect for it, you know? And those guys are, are just-... hard work of those Dagestani guys. They're so hard, they, they, they work hard, they pray hard, they, they just are very, very focused individuals. And you watch them, you're like, "Oh, okay." Uh, you know, even I'm like, "You know what? Maybe I need to get a little bit more serious about my thing."

Joe Rogan 1:00:54 (laughs)

Rashad Evans 1:00:54 You know? But, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:00:55 That's where the, the f- the success comes from. I mean-

Rashad Evans 1:00:58 That's, that's it.

Joe Rogan 1:00:58 Think about how many great fighters come out of that region. I mean, it's really ... it's extraordinary.

Rashad Evans 1:01:03 Yeah. And the- these guys are phenomenal. Like, I watch them after training and these guys do, um, this, this, uh, like, it's like a randori type of sparring afterwards. And they just do, like, jumping off the walls. All these kind of, like, these acrobatic crazy moves that you don't think will ever work and you see them, like, "Oh, my God. Where'd he, where'd he get that from?" They practice it all the time and they just, they just, they just do all these kind of crazy moves at the end of training and-

Joe Rogan 1:01:30 At the end of training?

Rashad Evans 1:01:31 At the end of training. I'm like, "Oh-"

Joe Rogan 1:01:32 So, like, they're done with all the real work, let's just fuck around and see if we get creative.

Rashad Evans 1:01:36 Yeah, they get creative and they just start just doing all kinds of stuff and they, you know, throw real moves in the air. But they just, they drill everything and Zabite, that dude is ... Zabite is, is probably, like, one of the best guys I've ever seen in training. Just, like, like martial arts wise. This guy-

Joe Rogan 1:01:52 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 1:01:53 He jumps off the cage and, and do all kinds of acrobats and come down doing all kinds of ground acrobats. And he just, he just makes it look so effortless and easy. It's crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:02:04 He is really good. He's r- he's really good with his mixture of traditional martial arts techniques. You know, 'cause he has that kung fu background.

Rashad Evans 1:02:12 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:02:12 So he throws a lot of, like, round kicks and spinning kicks and all that kind of crazy shit.

Rashad Evans 1:02:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:16 But then he'll hit you with, like, some judo shit. A lot of t- tosses and trips.

Rashad Evans 1:02:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:21 And he's got great submissions too. I mean, he's got great wrestling, he's got great boxing. I mean, he's a weird combination of a bunch of different styles.

Rashad Evans 1:02:30 And he's tall too.

Joe Rogan 1:02:31 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 1:02:31 That tall, that, that, uh, tall length is, is really, um, is something that helps him out too. 'Cause Frankie Edgar, whenever he goes with him, he's like, "Man, I feel like I can get him down, but then I look down and then his feet are still touching the ground."

Joe Rogan 1:02:42 (laughs)

Rashad Evans 1:02:42 "I swear I have him up-" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:44 (laughs) But his feet are still touching.

Rashad Evans 1:02:45 'Cause he's so tall for 145.

Joe Rogan 1:02:47 Yeah, she's so tall at 145. I tell you what though, he had a hard time in his last fight with Calvin Kattar. That dude-

Rashad Evans 1:02:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:52 That dude is fucking dangerous.

Rashad Evans 1:02:54 Well, Kattar's a dog though. Kattar-

Joe Rogan 1:02:55 He's a dog.

Rashad Evans 1:02:56 He's a dog, for sure.

Joe Rogan 1:02:56 He's the dark horse at 45, in my opinion, because he was beating Zabite in that last round.

Rashad Evans 1:03:01 Yeah, he was.

Joe Rogan 1:03:01 And it, and it was rough. Like, Zabite was trying to just get the fuck away from him and he just stays on him. And I think he has the best boxing in that division. And he's also huge for 45.

Rashad Evans 1:03:11 Yes, he is.

Joe Rogan 1:03:11 You stand next to him, you're like, "How the fuck are you weighing 145?"

Rashad Evans 1:03:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:15 He looks like he's a 160.

Rashad Evans 1:03:16 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:03:17 He, he doesn't look anything like 145.

Rashad Evans 1:03:19 I know. It seemed like, in that fight, Kattar kind of realized towards the end, like, "Wait a minute, I can, I can beat this dude." You know?

Joe Rogan 1:03:24 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 1:03:25 And that happens sometimes. When you go against a guy who has, like, a bunch of different tricks, you find yourself putting your- putting yourself in his trick bag just by being aware of all the things that he can do.

Joe Rogan 1:03:35 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 1:03:35 You find yourself like, "Oh, he's gonna set that up. Oh, he's gonna set that up."

Joe Rogan 1:03:38 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 1:03:38 And by you being too watchful of what he's doing, you're shutting your own game down.

Joe Rogan 1:03:42 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 1:03:42 And it seemed like Kattar just threw caution to the wind that third round and was like, "You know what? I'm gonna just go out and just make it happen."

Joe Rogan 1:03:47 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 1:03:47 And then when he did that, he found his opportunities.

Joe Rogan 1:03:49 I think, also, the first two rounds were really fast paced and I think in the third round, Kattar was the one who was in better condition.

Rashad Evans 1:03:55 He was.

Joe Rogan 1:03:55 He was the one who was pressing the pace in the third round. And he was also la- landing body shots.

Rashad Evans 1:03:59 The body shots added up.

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 Like, some nasty, nasty body shots that were adding up. He's, he's a fascinating guy, Calvin Kattar. I'm really interested, uh, to see him. He's fighting Jeremy Stevens next, which should be fucking chaos 'cause Jeremy Stevens is another savage.

Rashad Evans 1:04:14 Oh, man. He's a savage. I love watching him fight.

Joe Rogan 1:04:15 He, he only fights one way and that's, you know, kill or be killed.

Rashad Evans 1:04:19 See, I feel like guys like that don't even need to win. They just need to go out there and just fight.

Joe Rogan 1:04:23 (laughs)

Rashad Evans 1:04:23 Because, like, like, hi- his fighting is so good, it's ... You just wanna see him go out there and just fight-

Joe Rogan 1:04:27 Oh, yeah.

Rashad Evans 1:04:27 ... man.

Joe Rogan 1:04:27 Yeah. Well, he's had so many "oh, shit" moments in his career.

Rashad Evans 1:04:31 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:31 Like Dennis Bermudez-

Rashad Evans 1:04:32 Oh, my God.

Joe Rogan 1:04:32 ... he hits him with that flying knee up against the cage. You know, he, he ... Josh Emmett, that, the KO of Josh Emmett.

Rashad Evans 1:04:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:37 He fucks people up, man.

Rashad Evans 1:04:39 He does, man.

Joe Rogan 1:04:39 And he's got ridiculous power too. And with Calvin's boxing and Jeremy's savagery, the two of them together ... And Jeremy has r- ridiculous power. The two of them together, that's gonna be amazing. And then they have Zabite. Zabite is now gonna fight Ortega. Brian Ortega's comeback fight-

Rashad Evans 1:04:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:55 ... is gonna be Zabite and that, that's a tough fight to come back to. Ortega's been out-

Rashad Evans 1:05:00 (exhales) .

Joe Rogan 1:05:00 ... injured a bunch, hasn't fought since he lost to Max. He's had a bunch of, like, real problematic-

Rashad Evans 1:05:05 He's tired, dude.

Joe Rogan 1:05:05 ... injuries that he can't get, get over. And then, finally, he's healthy now, he's going through training and, you know, tall order though, to jump right back into the deep end of the pool with a guy like Zabite.

Rashad Evans 1:05:16 But you know what, though? Like, sometimes it is a tall order, but sometimes, like, when you, like, when you just came from a big fight, that's the kind of fight it's easier to get up for.

Joe Rogan 1:05:25 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 1:05:25 Like, like, if he ... Like, he just came from title ... Uh, challenging for the title, right? It'll be hard for him to, to take a s- too far of a step down in competition because then it's-

Joe Rogan 1:05:33 Right.

Rashad Evans 1:05:34 ... then it's gonna be hard to get himself up for it. But if he's taken a step kind of like in, in, in a, you know, in a upward motion, then it's like, "Okay, I can get up for this fight."

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 Right.

Rashad Evans 1:05:43 And then he can train for it, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:05:44 Yeah, 'cause Zabite is ... I don't know what the official ranking is. In my book, he's two or three, right? He's right there-

Rashad Evans 1:05:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:50 ... he's right at the top of the heap. In my book, I mean, there's Volkanovski, he's the champ, there's Max Holloway, they have to fight again.

Rashad Evans 1:05:55 They have to.

Joe Rogan 1:05:56 They're gonna fight again. And then, after that, it's basically Zabite and Kattar.

Rashad Evans 1:06:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:01 That, that's, that's how I look at it.

Rashad Evans 1:06:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:03 And then a bunch of other guys. Now that Aldo's down to 4- oh, 235, which is real interesting 'cause Aldo is going to fight Triple C, he's gonna fight Cejudo.

Rashad Evans 1:06:13 That's interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:06:14 Yes.

Rashad Evans 1:06:14 That is interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:06:14 For the title.

Rashad Evans 1:06:15 That is interesting because-

Joe Rogan 1:06:16 Very interesting.

Rashad Evans 1:06:17 I thought Aldo looked the best that he's looked in a long time at 135.

Joe Rogan 1:06:21 Fuck, yeah. He looked amazing.

Rashad Evans 1:06:22 He looked like a bit like the Al- Aldo, minus the kicks. He didn't-

Joe Rogan 1:06:25 Yes.

Rashad Evans 1:06:25 He- minus the kicks, I-

Joe Rogan 1:06:26 I wonder why he doesn't throw so many kicks anymore.

Rashad Evans 1:06:29 I don't know, man.

Joe Rogan 1:06:29 Do you think he has injuries or something?

Rashad Evans 1:06:30 I think he might have an injury. I think he don't wanna take a chance of, of, of hurting s-

Joe Rogan 1:06:35 His knees?

Rashad Evans 1:06:35 Yeah, hurting something and, and then having to fight through it, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:06:37 Right.

Rashad Evans 1:06:37 ... fighting compromised.

Joe Rogan 1:06:38 But it's crazy because his kicks were just such a devastating weapon.

Rashad Evans 1:06:41 I mean, he'll only need like two or three of them-

Joe Rogan 1:06:43 Right.

Rashad Evans 1:06:43 ... and it just change the whole complexion of the fight.

Joe Rogan 1:06:45 One, whack, oh-

Rashad Evans 1:06:47 Oh, my gosh.

Joe Rogan 1:06:47 When he fought Uriah.

Rashad Evans 1:06:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:48 Oh.

Rashad Evans 1:06:49 But imagine ... Now, imagine that, that-... power of leg kick to the lower calf, like how they-

Joe Rogan 1:06:55 Mm-hmm.

Rashad Evans 1:06:55 Oh, my gosh.

Joe Rogan 1:06:56 Yeah. Yeah, maybe it's a knee thing.

Rashad Evans 1:06:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:57 Maybe he can't throw those kicks 'cause his knees are fucked up. I don't- I don't know. I'd like to know, because that was one of his primary weapons. But still, even without that, I felt like he beat Moraes. I felt like that was a bad decision. But he's, you know, he's fighting Moraes, who's easily one of the best 35ers on earth.

Rashad Evans 1:07:15 Easily, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:15 Mi- Moraes is so good, man. That left high switch kick that he has is a thing of beauty.

Rashad Evans 1:07:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:21 The way he whips it, it's like a whip.

Rashad Evans 1:07:23 I know.

Joe Rogan 1:07:23 It's crazy. Like, it's effortless, it just goes to your head.

Rashad Evans 1:07:25 Yeah, Marlon i- Marlon is pretty sick, man. He-

Joe Rogan 1:07:27 He's beautiful. Is this Aldo throwing some kicks? Oh, okay. So- Four days ago. Oh.

Rashad Evans 1:07:32 Oh, okay.

Joe Rogan 1:07:33 It's practice, but... Hmm. Looks normal. Looks normal.

Rashad Evans 1:07:39 It looks normal.

Joe Rogan 1:07:40 I don't see any problems. Except the sound's all fucked up. (laughs)

Rashad Evans 1:07:44 But see, it's different, though. It's- it's- it's different when you gotta crack somebody's leg.

Joe Rogan 1:07:47 Of course.

Rashad Evans 1:07:48 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:07:48 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 1:07:48 Oh, my gosh. It's ... I think that, um ... I think, honestly, when- when it comes to, you know, the- the state of mixed martial arts, I think that, you know, once a lot of these fighters start to ... Like, 'cause, uh, we- we were speaking about it earlier, like, we were in a dark ages when you came to training and that transition of how to become more professional with your training, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:08:11 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 1:08:11 And I think nowadays, fighters are starting to understand that more, you know, with the, you know, the Performance Institute is helping to educate these fighters a lot more on what proper training should be.

Joe Rogan 1:08:22 Yeah.

Rashad Evans 1:08:23 And- and what it truly could encompass, you know? And now there's more professionalism added to martial arts.

Joe Rogan 1:08:30 Right.

Rashad Evans 1:08:30 But there's still an aspect that needs to be covering, and that's on the equipment side, you know? Like, um, the equipment that I ... the- the- the company that I work with, Onyx. Have you heard of Onyx before?

Joe Rogan 1:08:40 Yes. Yeah.

Rashad Evans 1:08:40 Yeah?

Joe Rogan 1:08:41 I have a pair of the gloves.

Rashad Evans 1:08:42 Okay. So-

Joe Rogan 1:08:42 Excellent.

Rashad Evans 1:08:43 The excellent-

Joe Rogan 1:08:44 Very, very good.

Rashad Evans 1:08:45 So, we have a whole line, and this- the line that we have with Onyx, it's- it's- it's really the first MMA branded, like, of MMA company that's made for all the- the- the way we move in MMA. You know, everything that happens in MMA, because now, the- the equipment that we use now, we borrow it from kickboxing or boxing. And there's that gap of- of just efficiency when it comes to manufacturing, uh, for a mixed martial art, because they- they ... Well, kickboxing,