JRE MMA Show #97 with Henry Cejudo

Joe Rogan 0:01 Henry Cejudo! How are you, sir?

Henry Cejudo 0:04 Oh, I'm doing good, Joe.

Joe Rogan 0:05 Good to see you, man.

Henry Cejudo 0:06 Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me.

Joe Rogan 0:06 What does it feel like? What does it feel like having stepped back, you step away, you get to look at it from a fresh perspective. What does this feel like?

Henry Cejudo 0:16 Uh, it, it feels good, man. It, it feels, uh... I think the biggest thing with me, Joe, is there's satisfaction in my life. You know what I'm saying? I've done so much in the sport, and I can compare myself a little bit to Daniel. You know? If Daniel would have beat Stipe Miocic and he would have retired on top, now, he, he, he could almost say he retired as a two-division world champ. And, uh, I don't feel like I have that chip on my shoulder. You know, as a wrestler, I, I retired from the Olympics at a very young age. You know, decided to come back three years later, but, you know what I mean? It was, it was already done, you know what I mean? I retired at the age of 21. And then now at the age of 33, I'm, I'm, I'm truly calling it quits unless there's, there's a couple fights that if I do come back.

Joe Rogan 0:58 I like that word unless.

Henry Cejudo 1:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00 I like that word.

Henry Cejudo 1:02 Yeah. And as you know, and, and, and, and a little bit it's... Before it was about the money a little bit with the UFC. And obviously, you know, everybody does have a price. But I think there's, there's, there's a fight that I, that I would really like in the UFC, and that would be against Oleksandr Volkanovski.

Joe Rogan 1:18 Really?

Henry Cejudo 1:19 Yeah. If they're-

Joe Rogan 1:20 45?

Henry Cejudo 1:20 At 45. If they were to give me an opportunity to go up and obviously be compensated, then that would be a fight that would really, uh, that would really wake me up in the morning and be like, "Hey, man, this is, this is a challenge. This is a whole new mountain." You know?

Joe Rogan 1:32 A chance to be a three-division world champion.

Henry Cejudo 1:36 A chance to be a three-division world champion. As you know, a lot of people have counted me out against Demetrious, against TJ, against Marlon. That, and may- maybe it was you too, Joe.

Joe Rogan 1:44 No, no, no, no, no.

Henry Cejudo 1:45 And, and, and I think that's what I love about it.

Joe Rogan 1:47 You can't find any evidence of me counting you out, sir.

Henry Cejudo 1:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:50 Never.

Henry Cejudo 1:51 So I love that. I love challenges. Since I was a kid, I knew I was, I knew I was different. I knew I was special. And, uh, these are the things-

Joe Rogan 1:59 What is it that you knew? Like, what, what separates you?

Henry Cejudo 2:03 Oh my God, I think it's, I think it's, it's a couple things. If I was to explain it to you, like, what's, what's made me successful and... And I've seen it, you know, being at the Olympic Training Center, uh, as a high school kid and living out there for four years. That's actually where I met Daniel. And I was a 16-year-old kid when I first met these guys, and I was able to analyze a lot of the greats, like, you know, uh, Stephen Abbess, Daniel Cormier, a lot of the Olympic team. And, uh, what I've learned now at the age of 33, I learned that there's been two things that have separated me from, from the rest of the pack. It's, it's, it's two things with what I call heart and ability. And I was actually able to tell this story to, uh, to Chatri, you know, the, the founder and CEO of ONE FC. And, uh, you know, so it's two things. I call it heart and ability. What is your heart? Your heart is your passion, your will, your desire, your determination. Your heart is something that you're willing to suffer for in order to obtain. Now, the next one is ability. You know, ability is, is a gift that you have since, since, you know, it's a coordination. It's, it's something that you've repped over time where you become a master at it. And what happens is a lot of time, it's, I, I always tell people, "It's good to question one or the other." It's good to question the mind, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, the heart or, or the ability. Because to be the 1% of the one percenters, like, both these things have to match. What happens is a lot of people have heart, but their ability is, like, way down here. You know, their ability doesn't match their heart, or their ability is up here and they're just a little lazy and can't really-

Joe Rogan 3:32 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 3:33 ... put the... You know, because there is a separation between mind and body, and your job is to connect them both. And I, and I'm gonna use an example, uh, with Marlon Marais. You saw me getting my ass kicked. You saw me getting leg kicked, you know, from the first all the way to the second round. But I knew that I had it connected and make that transition. That was a combination of combining the heart and the ability. You know, so I was able to kind of... So what separated me, I'd say that, I think is being, being gifted through the ability and then just having a, a passion, a will, that's just second to none.

Joe Rogan 4:07 There's a lot of other factors though, isn't there? There's like not just ability, it's also you have to be coached by someone who really knows what they're doing. It's, there's, there's so many guys out there that are really tough and they have will and they, they work out hard and they're in shape, but they just make technical mistakes, and they've never corrected those, those mistakes.

Henry Cejudo 4:26 Yeah. Well, I think that also goes back on the ability p-... Uh, I, I would put that into the ability portion. The reason why is because you gotta put yourself in the right situations. Like, I didn't start winning until I let go of my coaches.

Joe Rogan 4:40 Mm.

Henry Cejudo 4:40 The first time I lost to Demetrious Johnson, it was, uh... Man, I, I... It was hard. A- and this sounds, this is gonna sound very crazy and cynical, but it was kind of hard to blame myself, man. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:50 (laughs)

Henry Cejudo 4:50 Even though I was training because I knew coming from an Olympic sport that I had a coach that could take me to the top and there was no ifs or buts. Like, I knew he knew the recipe. MMA was still a fairly new s- and it's still a fairly new sport. So I knew that I had to find the professors, I knew that I had to find the scientists, and all this again in order for me to become that perfect storm. So that's exactly what we did, you know, putting, putting the science, the recovery, uh, finding the right coaches, listening to my ability, understanding my biomechanics. Like, it was a mixture of, of, of all these things that's, that's made, that separated me from the first time I fought Demetrious to just being a, just being a legend killer, man, to beating all these guys that they said had... You know, Demetrious Johnson, TJ, you know, Marlon Marais, Dominick Cruz, man. That's, that's a hell of a list, Joe.

Joe Rogan 5:37 It's a hell of a list.

Henry Cejudo 5:38 You know, that's a hell of a list, man.

Joe Rogan 5:39 It, it's one of the reasons why it bums me out that you've retired. Like, I, I have two... I've conflicting feelings. One, I'm happy.

Henry Cejudo 5:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:46 I'm happy you retired young and healthy and you could do anything you want, man. I really believe a guy who can accomplish what you've accomplished inside the octagon and also winning an Olympic gold medal is... You, you winning an Oly- Olympic gold medal in wrestling at 21 years old-

Henry Cejudo 5:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:59 ... retiring from the sport, then getting into MMA, becoming a two-division world champion in MMA, and then stepping away while you're still healthy and at the peak of your abilities. Part of me loves that. I love the fact that you did what you wanted to do and then you step away. But part of me looks back...... at, like say when you fought Benavidez or say when you fought, uh, Demetrious the first time and then looks at you now, like you're a completely different animal. Nobody had been able to shut down Dominick Cruz's f- footwork game. But you came in and just chopped the shit outta his legs. Just right off the bat, you, you... whatever advantage we thought that he would have with his footwork and movement was, was actually becoming a disadvantage, because you, you were using that against him. You were, you, you found the angles and you found the, the perfect times to attack his legs and then you put him away, which is also something no one's ever done before except Uriah caught him in his submission and finish, finished him. But n- no one's ever put him away, put him away the way you did.

Henry Cejudo 6:57 Yeah, and I think it's all about game planning. I think people, uh, you know, you... I, I think the ability that I have too that separates me too is the fact that I'm... Watch all my fights man, I fight everybody different, like I really do man. There's times where I have to use wrestling as I did with Demetrious-

Joe Rogan 7:10 Well the Wilson Reis fight's a great example. You came out like a karate guy.

Henry Cejudo 7:13 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:14 I was like, "Holy shit, look at this."

Henry Cejudo 7:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:16 You were like Wonderboy, f- sideways stance, like hands down. You really fought-

Henry Cejudo 7:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:21 ... like a karate guy. And then you, when you caught him with that straight punch and dropped him, I was like, "Look at this shit, this is crazy." Like you fought a different style.

Henry Cejudo 7:30 Yeah, and I think with Dominick too, just to get back to him, it's... In order for you to understand the f- uh... In order for you to understand the funk, like you have to train for the funk. You know, if you don't train for Dominick, if you think you can just go out there and just fight or train the way you train and try to fight Dominick, you're gonna be missing.

Joe Rogan 7:48 Mm.

Henry Cejudo 7:49 So throughout my training camps, like I, I treated almost like a wrestler, like a boxer. Like my training camp, like I build a team around me. I have a good, I have a, a mentor actually who's here, Dave Zohan who's, uh, you know, who's been helping me to shape. He's a businessman but he's been able to help me to form like, you know, obviously the perfect storm and, you know, we brought guys in from California that mimic just like Dominick, that were just a little faster than Dominick, and I knew that I wasn't even trying to touch his face because I knew that he was a hard hit. But I also knew that he would leave his legs a lot, you know, he, you can, you can push your body backwards but your legs will always be in that same position.

Joe Rogan 8:24 Mm.

Henry Cejudo 8:25 So the whole game plan since the beginning, this is why I felt so confident in that fight, through training was to continue, just keep taking his legs out as much as I can.

Joe Rogan 8:33 Did the first round of your fight li- Mar- with Marlon Moraes sort of open your eyes to like how effective that can be in a fight?

Henry Cejudo 8:41 Absolutely man, we saw it this weekend.

Joe Rogan 8:43 Yes.

Henry Cejudo 8:43 We saw it this weekend, every bed- you mentioned it actually. Now, and I was, I was a little bummed out you mentioned it because a lot of people don't see those little details. Those calf kicks man, you start to take out that lead leg man, and you lose your mobility.

Joe Rogan 8:55 It's, it's insane how we've had all these years of MMA, right? 1993 the UFC starts, here we are in 2020 but it's really only been the last two years or so. I give credit to Benson Henderson, 'cause Benson Henderson was the first guy to really bring it to MMA.

Henry Cejudo 9:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:09 But for whatever reason it wasn't as devastating when he was doing it. I don't know if he was doing it differently but there was no moment in a fight where he kicked someone's calf and you saw immediately them buckling. But you're seeing that now with these guys, like immediately one, two kicks and their leg is semi-useless.

Henry Cejudo 9:26 Yeah, you look at somebody like Justin Gaethje.

Joe Rogan 9:28 Ah.

Henry Cejudo 9:28 Justin Gaethje is... Man, if people don't catch onto that, if Khabib don't catch onto that, man he's in trouble.

Joe Rogan 9:35 He said-

Henry Cejudo 9:35 And, and I know them both.

Joe Rogan 9:36 He said, "Why..." Like wide out in the open, he said, "When I fight Khabib," he goes, "I'm not even gonna try to kick him in his thighs, I'm just gonna kick him with that low calf kick."

Henry Cejudo 9:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:44 He goes, "I'm gonna kick him four times." He goes, "After four times he's fucked."

Henry Cejudo 9:48 Yeah. And he saw that, you watch the fight with him and, uh, Edson Barboza. And Edson Barboza's a, he's a high level striker but what really broke down Edson Barboza was what Justin did to him, he started whipping that, that, that calf kick. And actually right before I even fought Dominick, like I went on YouTube, like this is like maybe an hour before I went to the arena, and I just put like some Justin Gaethje highlights.

Joe Rogan 10:11 Mm.

Henry Cejudo 10:11 Just, just ruthless man, just really just swinging those kicks with bad intentions, almost just to murder you.

Joe Rogan 10:17 Mm.

Henry Cejudo 10:18 And also the reason why I've been able to kick and do things like that 'cause I'm very confident with my take-down defense, you know. It's like Jon Jones, Jon Jones is so comfortable with this stand up because he knows he, his ability to stop Tony from taking him down-

Joe Rogan 10:31 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 10:31 ... they're just so much higher.

Joe Rogan 10:32 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 10:33 And I feel that same way so I become a little more free with my kicks and punches-

Joe Rogan 10:36 Mm.

Henry Cejudo 10:36 ... and things of that matter.

Joe Rogan 10:38 We saw two guys, uh, in one of the weight classes that you ruled over, Alex Perez and Jussier Formiga this past weekend, and Alex Perez stopped him with those low leg kicks. Two UFCS in a row we've seen guys get stopped with low leg kicks, it's crazy. It's crazy how prominent that, that, that technique has become.

Henry Cejudo 10:56 It, it has, it has and I think, uh, we're gonna start seeing more of it.

Joe Rogan 11:00 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 11:01 So people are gonna have to start-

Joe Rogan 11:02 It's time.

Henry Cejudo 11:02 ... adjusting man, 'cause there was, what was it? There was two stoppages within a, there was a stoppage before Alex-

Joe Rogan 11:07 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 11:07 ... Perez recently that came out.

Joe Rogan 11:08 Yeah, last week. Last week there was a stop, I forget who, uh, who it was fighting but, um, it was ano- another stoppage because leg kicks, in, in that stoppage the dude, uh, crushed both of his legs. An- and I apologize for not remembering the names. I'm, I'm overru- I didn't call that fight either. If I called it I'd probably remember it.

Henry Cejudo 11:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:25 But the, um, the low leg kick is just a gigantic factor. When you were fighting, uh, Marlon Moraes, I mean it seemed like he was a bit of a, a step ahead of you in the first round but you made some serious adjustments in between, it was like two different fights. It was like the first round was like, "Damn, this is not going well for Henry," and then going into the second round like, "Damn, this is not going well for Marlon." Like you, it was a totally different fight. It's like you figured the adjustment out, figured out what you needed to do, you stepped in further, you were closer, and you started attacking.

Henry Cejudo 11:55 (clears throat) Yeah, and I think, uh, a lot of that too, uh, Joe, and if, if I was... I know how to, I know when to fight and when to compete, and, uh, when Marlon, because first I went into it with a sprained ankle. This is why I had my like, my, uh, my ankle ta- tape, and actually Marlon's team had heard me scream on Tuesday night when all this happened so they knew I was somewhat injured, so I think their game plans since the beginning were-

Joe Rogan 12:19 What, when did you scream?

Henry Cejudo 12:20 I twisted my ankle between the UFC mats like, you know, they had some cheap tape in between the mats, when I stepped in like my, I, I-

Joe Rogan 12:26 Oh, no.

Henry Cejudo 12:27 ... rolled my ankle like bad. Bad. I have, uh, pictures of it's, it's like black and-

Joe Rogan 12:31 I've seen it, I've seen it, yeah.

Henry Cejudo 12:32 Yeah. Back and, black and blue, but I still wanted to fight so...You know, uh, um, so anyways, so, you know, I went in there hurt and whatnot. But I knew that that first round, and you said ... You mentioned it too during the fight. You says, "I think this might be a survival round for Henry." And that ... It absolutely was. So, I knew when to fight and when to compete, but I also knew that Marlon Marraone was throwing so much power. And I've gone ... I've gone against some of the best in the world. And I was like, "Dude, there's no way he's gonna be able to ma- maintain all that power for five rounds."

Joe Rogan 13:02 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 13:02 And I don't think this kid has any idea as a wrestler, 'cause he's never wrestled before, how much pain a guy like me can endure.

Joe Rogan 13:09 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 13:10 So, he can say he was tired. He can say that, I don't know, something happened. But in reality, it's a mixture of two things. He blew his wad, and this guy, this guy here, could, uh, which is me, could take a lot of ... could take a lot of pain. I was with Mike not too long ago, and I asked him. I was like, I was like, I was like, "Hey, Mike." This is Mike Tyson. And I'm like, "What, what, what ... How would you describe Muhammad Ali, man? What was the difference between him and everybody else?" And he sat there and he thought about it. And he was like ... Which was cool to hear, man, because I, I can, I can put myself in, in those shoes. And he's like, he's like, "Man, Muhammad Ali was a guy that I've never seen before 'cause he could just endure so much pain."

Joe Rogan 13:51 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 13:52 "Like, the dude could just endure so much pain that it's almost like the average guy would fold, the average, uh, guy would probably get killed. But Ali just had a certain will to him that separated him from, from everybody else." It was th- the fact that he was able to endure pain. Like, you don't hear that too often.

Joe Rogan 14:09 It's true, though. You know, I mean, if you watch his fight with Ken Norton, you know, he fought most of the fight with a broken jaw.

Henry Cejudo 14:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:15 Yeah, I mean, it's, it's-

Henry Cejudo 14:17 This is heavyweights, too, man.

Joe Rogan 14:18 Oh, yeah, man. He fought big-

Henry Cejudo 14:18 That's probably a five-pound jaw, too, huh?

Joe Rogan 14:21 ... heavyweights, man. He fought big heavyweights.

Henry Cejudo 14:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:23 I mean, George Foreman in his prime, Joe Frazier when, when Joe Frazier was in his prime.

Henry Cejudo 14:28 Ah, same example, George Foreman-

Joe Rogan 14:31 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 14:31 ... blew his wad.

Joe Rogan 14:32 Yep, yeah.

Henry Cejudo 14:32 He had no idea how much, uh, pain Ali could endure.

Joe Rogan 14:36 Yep.

Henry Cejudo 14:36 Came back and won it.

Joe Rogan 14:36 And how much movement Ali had going for him.

Henry Cejudo 14:39 Right.

Joe Rogan 14:39 A- Ali was so slick. You know, when Ali ... There's a famous video of Ali with his hands on the ropes and, and George is just winging punches at him, and Ali is using the ropes. He's holding onto the ropes and using the ropes.

Henry Cejudo 14:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:55 And he's not even putting his hands up at all.

Henry Cejudo 14:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:57 And the most murderous puncher up to that time since Sonny Liston-

Henry Cejudo 15:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:00 ... in the history of the heavyweight division. You got, like ... Joe Frazier, uh, was a, a power puncher. Joe Louis was a sniper. He was an excellent power puncher. But George Foreman would lift people in the air.

Henry Cejudo 15:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:11 He would hit people.

Henry Cejudo 15:12 Crazy.

Joe Rogan 15:13 Like, you ever see his first knockout with, uh, Joe Frazier?

Henry Cejudo 15:15 Yeah, he had knocked him out, and then he fought Ali right after-

Joe Rogan 15:17 Yes.

Henry Cejudo 15:18 ... he beat Frazier. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:18 When he fought Frazier, he literally lifted him in the air with a punch. That's how hard Joe Frazier would hit. And Ali, no, no hands up. Just holding-

Henry Cejudo 15:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:27 ... onto the ropes.

Henry Cejudo 15:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:28 Doing this shit, sitting in front of him, leaning back doing this shit. It's crazy.

Henry Cejudo 15:32 Yeah, but imagine how many of those punches. Even though he didn't get hit in the face-

Joe Rogan 15:35 Oh.

Henry Cejudo 15:35 ... imagine how many of those punches George Foreman was throwing at him, and then Ali was just laughing and talking to him.

Joe Rogan 15:41 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 15:41 It's a cer- it's a certain mind power, man-

Joe Rogan 15:44 It's a mind fuck.

Henry Cejudo 15:45 ... that you cannot-

Joe Rogan 15:47 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 15:47 You just cannot replicate, man. Like, that's gotta be in you.

Joe Rogan 15:49 Right. Or you have to have developed it over time and have complete confidence in it. You know, there's ... I, I think you can build mental toughness. I really, I really do. I think it ha- But I think you have to be very conscious about it, and I think it has to be done over time. Some people build mental toughness because of their environment or because of how they grew up, or some of the, the bad things they've faced in their life. And some people build mental toughness out of a decision. They make a decision to be mentally tough, and then f- they actually ... They cultivate that. They work on that.

Henry Cejudo 16:20 I think it's a mixture of both. And this is why sometimes I res- I respect more of, like, the upper middle class when they become champions, especially in a rough sport like wrestling or MMA. Is because I feel like, like, minorities or people that have gone through adversity, it's like, man, we, we have an advantage because it's, it's through the nurture side of things, how you were raised, man. Like, I, I'm one of, I'm one of seven kids, Joe, was raised by a single mother and, you know, I was the youngest, man. So, I was the kid that was picked on, you know?

Joe Rogan 16:49 Hmm.

Henry Cejudo 16:49 I was picked on by all ... Not only was I ... It's different when you're the smallest in an, in an immigrant family, you know?

Joe Rogan 16:55 (laughs)

Henry Cejudo 16:55 It's like th- you're the last one to eat. You're the la- You're gonna get beat up pretty much the majority of your childhood until you start getting to that age where you can kind of fight back.

Joe Rogan 17:02 Hmm.

Henry Cejudo 17:03 So, a lot of it, I guess, you owe through the, through the nature and nurture. Obviously, genetics, your mo- your mother and father, but also through the, through the nature side of it, how you were raised, man.

Joe Rogan 17:13 Hmm.

Henry Cejudo 17:13 How, how tough are you? Like, me as a kid growing up, like, I, I remember as a family, man, like, h- hot summer days would come around, like, we didn't eat, man. We didn't eat, man. Like, going to school was a place for us to, like ... At least for ... At least I could say. My family, they don't talk about that stuff so much. They're a little more private. But for me, it was like, dude, I get a chance to eat lunch and breakfast.

Joe Rogan 17:32 Well, that was a big problem with this COVID shit, where they shut schools down. And a lot of kids are in that same position where that was their opportunity to eat.

Henry Cejudo 17:40 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:41 And some people just are not aware of that, that that's where a lot of people got their food, was at school.

Henry Cejudo 17:46 Right, right. And I was one of those kids. So, I, if there's any of those kids or any of th- those guys that are adults now, it's like, hey, man, be happy for that 'cause I, I tell you what's made me has been adversity, man. It's going, it's understanding that, that grind, that grit, man-

Joe Rogan 18:00 Hmm.

Henry Cejudo 18:01 ... that, of being angry and things like that. If you're able to challenge that into something constructive-

Joe Rogan 18:07 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 18:07 I mean, Joe, I'm, I'm a living example, man.

Joe Rogan 18:09 You re- you are.

Henry Cejudo 18:10 Like, look at that flag behind you. Re- I represented that flag.

Joe Rogan 18:13 You did.

Henry Cejudo 18:14 You know. And, uh, ironically, you know, my mom came to this country, you know, maybe not the most political way. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:22 (laughs)

Henry Cejudo 18:22 But she came to this country to live the American dream, and her American dream was just to make sure her kids-

Joe Rogan 18:26 Well, it's a timing thing, you know, because my grandparents came over here too, but they came over here when it was o- it was easy. You just came over and you just signed some shit and you were in.

Henry Cejudo 18:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:37 You know? In the, the early 1900s-... it just, uh, look, if that was how it was, today you wouldn't have the kind of imm- illegal immigration you have today. This country was founded on people coming over here because it was easy.

Henry Cejudo 18:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:52 It was a better place to live, you could have a better life for your family. But there was no hoops to jump through. My grandparents just arrived. They just came here and moved in. I mean, they, they didn't-

Henry Cejudo 19:03 Right.

Joe Rogan 19:03 ... they didn't have to take any, like, serious tests or do any crazy shit.

Henry Cejudo 19:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:06 They just came in. You know?

Henry Cejudo 19:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:08 They didn't have to prove that they had some special skills. Like now, it's very difficult for people to come over here and to, to get, uh, citizenship.

Henry Cejudo 19:17 No, it is. And, and then I do believe even as an American subject, there is a pathway, you know, to citizenship, because you're right. Times, times do change and you have to adjust to, to a lot of whatever political power's going on right now. I just happen to be fortunate to, uh, that my mom did it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:33 Yeah. Your mom did it. Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 19:35 I said, "She crossed. I'm, I'm here now."

Joe Rogan 19:38 I think guys like you are amazing sources of inf- inspiration for other people that are struggling.

Henry Cejudo 19:42 And this is crazy, Joe, so I'm gonna mention something to you is like, my mom, both of my parents came here illegally. I'll just say it, man. You guys forgive me.

Joe Rogan 19:49 (gasps)

Henry Cejudo 19:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:50 Don't tell Trump. (laughs)

Henry Cejudo 19:53 But my mom was granted her citizenship. So when I won the Olympics, my mom wasn't able to attend the 2000 Olympics due to her, due to her citizenship status. So then three years later after that, she was awarded her citizenship. But, uh, at the age of 20, so, you know, I stand on both fences, man. Like my dad, he was, uh, my bo- you know, my father, which, which I was just raised by my mother, he committed crimes in and out. He was in and outta jail here in California. He was actually deported. So, so I was a five-year-old kid, my dad was deported and never came back to America. So I, I, I understand both sides, man. Like, and I hate to-

Joe Rogan 20:26 Mm.

Henry Cejudo 20:26 ... say this, but it's true. It's, my dad came here as a foreigner, as, as an illegal, and he decided to break the law, man. And rightfully so, man. He should go back to his native country. My mother came here, you know, illegally, uh, um, you know, paid her fine, paid her taxes and whatnot, and then she was granted her citizenship in 2000, 2011, man. So I've been able to speak on this on, on behalf of Congress and kind of share my story to the world, man, because, man, I'm, it's almost like I become neutral.

Joe Rogan 20:58 Mm.

Henry Cejudo 20:58 You break the law, you go, man. You, you obey the law after a certain amount of time, man, maybe you might get granted as an American.

Joe Rogan 21:05 Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's a very frustrating thing for people who, uh, do want to have a better life for their family and they realize how difficult it is to come here. I fully understand illegal immigration. Uh, I fully understand wanting to keep out people that are criminals and people that are murderers and people that are in the drug trade. But if I was a person who was struggling to feed my family in South America or in Mexico or wherever, and I, I found out that I could sneak in and that I could do better, I would sneak in.

Henry Cejudo 21:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:37 I would do it, 100%. And anybody says they wouldn't, you're lying.

Henry Cejudo 21:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:42 You're lying. If you found out there was a place across the border where you could make five times as much and you could send money back and all you had to do is grind, this place where literally anybody can go from being, uh, a completely impoverished to being on top of the world, to being a millionaire. This is the place.

Henry Cejudo 22:00 I think the best example, man, I hate to use the example 'cause he's, he's, he's burned a lot of people is, is Don King. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:07 Well, Don King is maybe not the best example 'cause he was born in America, first of all, and he's a murderer be- because twice, twice over. You know, he's an example of a, a different time. And, you know, you talk to guys like Mike Tyson, he'll tell you that, "That guy played me and fucked me over."

Henry Cejudo 22:22 Right, right. Yeah. Your, your problem is probably-

Joe Rogan 22:23 He's a criminal.

Henry Cejudo 22:24 ... maybe Don King... But what I'm saying is he's been able to come out of, you know, obviously he was a murderer, but he was able to somewhat make it in the sport that he desired-

Joe Rogan 22:32 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 22:33 ... to be at that time. I'm not, you know, obviously I, we think, we all know he's a crook, but, man, it lets you know what America's able to do, man. Doesn't matter what you've done in life, you, you, you really do get not only a second, a third, but a fourth and a thousand opportunities.

Joe Rogan 22:47 He's from a different era. I feel like if the internet was around... Well, you know, who knows? Maybe he'd be president today. (laughs)

Henry Cejudo 22:54 Look at our president, man. This is why, this, dude, this is why, this is why, like, like, dude, Trump, Trump is the example of the American dream.

Joe Rogan 23:01 In, in many ways, yeah. A, a faulty version of it, but yeah, in many ways. Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 23:06 And I think the other person that I would-

Joe Rogan 23:08 Actually, probably not the version of the American dream because his, his dad was rich and he gave him money. Like, he started off, his dad gave him millions of dollars to start businesses.

Henry Cejudo 23:17 Right. But I mean, he turned that into billions too, right?

Joe Rogan 23:19 He did, but he also went bankrupt a bunch of times too.

Henry Cejudo 23:21 Yeah. You got me, Joe. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:23 I mean, it's, it's, it's tricky. I mean, you can't deny the fact that the guy's been remarkably successful.

Henry Cejudo 23:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:28 But, like, the extenuating circumstances that led to that success is very different than your mother sneaking over here because she wanted to do better for her family.

Henry Cejudo 23:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:36 You know, that, that's, that's the raw version of the American dream. I mean, the, the American dream is really immigration, and that's really what it... Like, I'm a version of the American dream. I'm third generation American. My, my grandparents came over here because they wanted a better life. Their parents wanted a better life. So they came over here from Italy and from Ireland.

Henry Cejudo 23:56 Yeah. It's a trip, man. I, I, when you think, when you talk about things like that, you know who I think of a lot when you talk about the American dream, man? I know, uh, you know, he's, in my opinion, I feel like he's somewhat misunderstood in our MMA community or just in general, man, is, uh, is, is Ali Abdelaziz, man. A dude that came from Egypt, you know, came to America. I remember Ali, I've known him for a minute, since, since 2004. You know, he would sell FUBU like out... He, he was just hustling the whole time out in Colorado Springs. And, uh, you know, now, I mean, he's got over 150 fighters. I mean, he's got five champions in the UFC. I mean, this dude is, uh... When I think of the American dream, I really do think of somebody like, like Ali.

Joe Rogan 24:39 Well, he's a very controversial guy.

Henry Cejudo 24:41 He is. He is.

Joe Rogan 24:42 Um, but-... his clients love him.

Henry Cejudo 24:45 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:46 You know, it's, it's hard to, hard to deny that. His clients love him. I mean, there's a lot of people that say a lot of wild shit about him. I don't know how much of it's true.

Henry Cejudo 24:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:53 But the bottom line is you talk to guys like Justin Gaethje, guys like yourself, you know, ma- many fighters that have had come in here that are repped by him, and they love the guy.

Henry Cejudo 25:03 Yeah, Khabib is-

Joe Rogan 25:04 Frankie, Frankie.

Henry Cejudo 25:04 Yeah, Frankie, all these dudes, Cody, uh, Werdum. And he's been able to... And I've been there, and I- I've never seen this before, but he's kinda like the glue with all of us. Like, d- dude, I was eating lunch and dinner with, with Marlon. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:19 Wait, really?

Henry Cejudo 25:20 Yeah, not too long.

Joe Rogan 25:21 Before or after the fight?

Henry Cejudo 25:22 This is like maybe four months after my fight.

Joe Rogan 25:26 Oh, wow.

Henry Cejudo 25:27 I mean, I'm sure it must have stung, but out of the respect for him. And I told that to Ali, I'm like, "Ali, man, these dudes are good." 'Cause I was picking on Frankie Edgar, too, but I was like, "Man, you're next, dude. You're gonna bend the knee."

Joe Rogan 25:37 Yeah. (laughs)

Henry Cejudo 25:37 And I was like, "Ali, these dudes are gonna wanna fight me, man. There's two against one. Wh- whose back he got?" He's like, "My brother." He's like, "You think they're gonna do that when I'm here, man?" He's like, "These guys respect as much as you do." And I'm just like, "Huh." And then we sat down, it was just like nothing ever happened, man.

Joe Rogan 25:50 Well, that's very cool that, uh, Marlon has that kinda character that he could sit down with you after that fight. That's very cool.

Henry Cejudo 25:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:57 Marlon's an interesting guy, man. He's, uh, he's one of those guys that, like, you wonder, like, is he too big for that division? Like, how much is, how much weight is that man cutting? He's so fucking big. To see him get down to 135 and look how shredded he is, like, what do you walk around at? Like, he looks like he walks around about 160 something.

Henry Cejudo 26:15 Yeah, he's big, and I think, I, I think, I personally think that Marlon could hurt some people at 145 pounds.

Joe Rogan 26:21 Yeah, I think so, too. Yeah. Um, it's, um, that, that risk versus reward. Like, when do you move awa- when do you, you know, when do you go up? When do you stay down? Like, how much are you beating your body up? And then you got some guys who go down later in their career. You know, like, uh, Barboza's a good example. Barboza, in his last fight, I thought he got robbed. I, I thought he won that decision, and, um, he got down to 145.

Henry Cejudo 26:47 That's, that's not always the answer, Joe. Look, I mean, look at me. I was at 125 pounds. And could I still make it? Yeah, I could still make it. But the fatigue that'd bring to me, like the, I think, the psychology side too of cutting weight-

Joe Rogan 27:00 Mm.

Henry Cejudo 27:00 ... like, going, going down is not always the answer, man. I started having my best success when I decided, I was like, "Hey, man, I'm, I'm just sick of cutting weight, man. I'm, I'm getting ready to go up and, you know, challenge myself at 135 pounds." And what you hear from the naysayers is just like, "Man, he's just... You're too small, man. You're not ready for some power like that." I'm just like, "No, I don't think so, man." I think there's an advantage of me for me to feel well. If I feel well and I feel healthy with my speed, you know, I'm a, I'm a short, compact fighter. It's like, man, trust me, I don't need that much. As long as I land, I'm gonna hurt you, man. You can, you can be 10 pounds heavier than me, it doesn't matter. So...

Joe Rogan 27:35 There's been a lot of guys who've moved up and it's been the answer.

Henry Cejudo 27:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:38 Jorge Masvidal.

Henry Cejudo 27:38 Yeah, Masvidal, Calvin.

Joe Rogan 27:40 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 27:40 Even Kelvin has success.

Joe Rogan 27:41 Kelvin, I still think I would... If I was... I mean, just someone gets in Kelvin's ear, I'm like, "Kelvin, we gotta do this the right way. There's a lot of guys way bigger than you that make 170." I think at 170, he could be a world champion.

Henry Cejudo 27:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:54 I really do.

Henry Cejudo 27:55 Yeah, he's-

Joe Rogan 27:55 He's a, he's a scary man when he's in shape and, and motivated, but (sighs) he just gets big.

Henry Cejudo 28:01 Yeah, I think, man, he loves-

Joe Rogan 28:03 Loves food.

Henry Cejudo 28:04 He loves Mary Jane. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:06 He loves that too. He loves that too.

Henry Cejudo 28:07 Yeah, I think that's the-

Joe Rogan 28:08 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 28:08 I think the-

Joe Rogan 28:08 You think that's what it is?

Henry Cejudo 28:09 I think, yeah, Kelvin is... Dude, he's one of my best friends, man. Like, we've become super, super close, and, uh, he's a very gifted, very gifted human being, man. Like, he's... When you see him look hard, you see him, no, he doesn't have en- enough, you know, muscle definition. But, man, the dude's athletic ability.

Joe Rogan 28:28 Oh, he's a, he's a assassin.

Henry Cejudo 28:28 What he can do is counterpunch now.

Joe Rogan 28:30 Yeah. Whoo.

Henry Cejudo 28:31 It's like, it's, it's ridiculous, man.

Joe Rogan 28:33 He's got one of the best straight left hands in the business.

Henry Cejudo 28:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 28:36 The one he dropped Bisping with, like, Jesus.

Henry Cejudo 28:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:38 It's a piston, man. Pah-pah.

Henry Cejudo 28:40 Yeah, but I also feel like, and I see the... And I was like, I always think, "Okay, Kelvin can make 170." I agree with you, Joe, but what about that happiness portion? You know what I'm saying? Will he be happy throughout that process?

Joe Rogan 28:51 Maybe he'll be happy when he lies in bed with that big ass gold belt.

Henry Cejudo 28:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:55 You know, maybe that's what'll make him happy.

Henry Cejudo 28:57 I got two of them, so I just don't know, Joe.

Joe Rogan 28:59 I know you do.

Henry Cejudo 28:59 Add a gold medal.

Joe Rogan 29:01 Add a gold medal. (laughs)

Henry Cejudo 29:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:02 Are you the youngest guy to ever win a gold medal in the Olympics for wrestling?

Henry Cejudo 29:05 Yes, in 2008.

Joe Rogan 29:06 That's amazing.

Henry Cejudo 29:07 In 2016, uh, Kyle Snyder, who, if he does decide to make a transition to the UFC, a guy like Jon Jones would be in trouble.

Joe Rogan 29:15 Do you think? Yeah?

Henry Cejudo 29:16 Yeah. That dude is just, just... The reason why I beat Demetrious. You know, obviously, I beat Demetrious. It was, it was... Joe, I wouldn't be mad. I'm gonna bring this up right now. I wouldn't be mad if the judges would have given it to Demetrious, man. You know what? 'Cause it was a hell of a fight-

Joe Rogan 29:27 Very, very good fight.

Henry Cejudo 29:28 ... and I would have been like, "Man, I almost had him." But, you know, the judges, I conveyed enough to, for the judges to give it to me. And, uh, the reason why I was able to beat him was because I nullified a lot of his stink with my wrestling, my inside trips, my takedowns. So I completely dismantled this dude. You know what I mean? I took him out of his rhythm when he was used to kind of catching people and then being able to take people down. So I feel like if a guy like Kyle Snyder gets in the game, and he's able to kind of go through the process that I've gone through, that's the only guy that I could see beating somebody like Jon Jones.

Joe Rogan 30:02 How old is he now?

Henry Cejudo 30:03 He's young. He's, uh, I wanna say he's 24, about to be 25.

Joe Rogan 30:09 Interesting. And does he have any desire to fight?

Henry Cejudo 30:11 He's mentioned it.

Joe Rogan 30:12 Yeah?

Henry Cejudo 30:12 He's mentioned it, but he's not-

Joe Rogan 30:14 Does he have any experience in standup at all?

Henry Cejudo 30:16 Uh, and that's the biggest thing, man. So he wouldn't... A guy like that, you would have to kind of... You would have to groom him properly.

Joe Rogan 30:22 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 30:22 Like, you, you don't wanna stick a guy like that straight into MMA.

Joe Rogan 30:25 No.

Henry Cejudo 30:25 Put him into boxing for at least a, a couple years. Have him, have him do this. 'Cause this is what I did. I boxed for three years. I did amateur boxing, I competed. I mean, I was... I didn't do any Jujitsu, none of that, because I was in love with the sport of b-boxing. My original goal-And this is crazy. This, this is ho- this is how crazy I think, Joe, is I was trying to make the Olympic team right after 2008.

Joe Rogan 30:46 For boxing?

Henry Cejudo 30:46 For boxing.

Joe Rogan 30:47 Wow.

Henry Cejudo 30:47 Yeah. B- And the reason why that g- that idea came up because Deontay Wilder did it within, I think it was four years-

Joe Rogan 30:53 Hmm.

Henry Cejudo 30:53 ... he was able to make-

Joe Rogan 30:55 Year and a half.

Henry Cejudo 30:55 Is it... Was it eight-

Joe Rogan 30:55 Year and a half from boxing, wins a bronze medal in the Olympics.

Henry Cejudo 30:58 Crazy, right?

Joe Rogan 30:59 Dude.

Henry Cejudo 30:59 I was like, "Dude, if that dude can do it-"

Joe Rogan 31:00 Dude.

Henry Cejudo 31:01 "... give me a few years." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:02 That's one of the... When he told me that, I'm like, "That is one of the craziest stories I've ever heard in my life."

Henry Cejudo 31:06 Ridiculous.

Joe Rogan 31:06 And then... But also extremely motivated because he had a very sick daughter and he realized that he couldn't play basketball, he wasn't going to school, couldn't play football. He was trying to think of ways to make money. He was driving a truck, I believe it was for Budweiser. He was driving a tr- he was delivering, delivering things.

Henry Cejudo 31:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:23 And he just decided, uh, "I'm gonna get into boxing," and just had unbelievable god-given talent, and just ferocious punching power. His punching power is like nothing I've ever seen before. I mean, you look at Deontay Wilder's knockouts. They'll, they don't even make sense. He sends people flying across the, the ring and when he fought Tyson Fury, the, the first fight when he dropped him and knocked him down twice, he only weighed 209 pounds. It's crazy.

Henry Cejudo 31:49 209 pounds?

Joe Rogan 31:50 209 pounds.

Henry Cejudo 31:51 And that's any... I mean, that's a heavyweight.

Joe Rogan 31:52 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 31:52 That's crazy.

Joe Rogan 31:53 And, you know, he's fighting Tyson Fury who's a enormous heavyweight.

Henry Cejudo 31:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:56 And like, he hits guys, man, like nobody else. What Tyson had over him though, that he, he showed in the tactical side of it in the second fight, was his boxing. His, his, uh, his understanding of the game is so complex, it's so much different.

Henry Cejudo 32:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:12 Whereas Deontay has just this ferocious power and he figures out how to put it on you. But when you can knock out a guy like Luis Ortiz with a fucking right hand to the forehead-

Henry Cejudo 32:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:21 ... he, he looked like he got shot-

Henry Cejudo 32:22 Gold medalist fight, Ortiz is... Yeah. That's crazy.

Joe Rogan 32:24 Yes. And gold... And a, and a fucking elite boxer.

Henry Cejudo 32:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 32:27 I mean, but he blap, he hit him on the forehead and Ortiz's, just his legs went out and you see him going, "What the fuck just happened?"

Henry Cejudo 32:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:35 Forehead. Who punches that hard? Deontay's just got crazy, crazy power. But fact remains, he did it after a year and a half, and he won a bronze medal in the Olympics, which is just spectacular.

Henry Cejudo 32:47 Yeah, it's, it's nuts, man. So that's where the original goal came from, but I just saw like, it was... It just wasn't realistic for me at that time. Like, especially at my weight class. Like, these dudes have been doing it since they were four years old. There's a different speed. I've been... And I was sparring with a lot of these guys, I'm like, "Damn, man." This is like... It's nuts, man. It's nuts when you're at the lower weight because now you're dealing with not just... In heavyweight, you can somewhat get away with it 'cause if you might be fashionable or athletic-

Joe Rogan 33:11 Right.

Henry Cejudo 33:11 ... but at the lower weight classes, man, there is speed. You got the, you know, you got-

Joe Rogan 33:15 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 33:15 ... you got the dudes from, from Philadelphia, from California-

Joe Rogan 33:18 Yep.

Henry Cejudo 33:18 ... like all these Mexicans, Blacks and Whites that are just like, "Hey, man."

Joe Rogan 33:21 They've been doing it forever.

Henry Cejudo 33:22 This is a different sport, man. And I, and I've been humbled before.

Joe Rogan 33:25 Mm. I feel like boxing in particular is one of those sports that's very difficult to learn properly as you get older. There's something about muscle memory and, and, and your, your body being ingrained, like developed to move a certain way and to strike a certain way, and to be able to react on openings, like instinctually. It's almost like once you hit like 25, 26 years old and you start then, like, ooh, it's real hard to ever get to an elite level.

Henry Cejudo 33:51 Yeah, your body starts to change, and that happened to me. And it's crazy and it's ironic, Joe. It's like even my UFC debut, like think about this, like I didn't make weight and I'll never forget it. I was with my brother, he's actually back here too, with my brother Alonzo. And I remember, uh, you know, he... I didn't make weight. I couldn't make the weight, man. I was just doing too much. You're talking about by the time you get to 25, like you hit the nail on the head-

Joe Rogan 34:12 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 34:13 ... because that's when I first started struggling to make weight. And I didn't make weight at that time and I remember I was just gonna get on a flight and just disappear and never freaking see... And never look back, man.

Joe Rogan 34:23 Really?

Henry Cejudo 34:23 And just retire. Yeah. This is crazy, Joe. This is crazy. And my brother, my, my brother was here and... You know, thank God for my brother Alonzo, and he's like, "You need to be a man and you gotta go and talk to Sean Shelby and let him... And tell him thank you, and let him know that you're retired, man." And that was mad... It took everything in my heart because I was so embarrassed, Joe. This was, this was when TJ fought, uh... When he was supposed to fight Borraio I think the second time. And, uh, and this is when he fought Joel Soto, so I was on that... I was supposed to be on that card and I was supposed to fight, uh, Scott Jorgensen. And I went down there, didn't make the weight, and I'll never forget it. I was dehydrated, I was k-... I was... I couldn't even have tears to cry, I'm also dehydrated. Then I went up to, uh, to Sean Shelby and I was like, "Sean, thank you, man. But I'm just... I no longer wanna do this sport, man." I'm-

Joe Rogan 35:08 Did you back out of that fight?

Henry Cejudo 35:11 I c-... I... Uh, my body's just wasn't reacting, man. Like, I wasn't doing well. Like, my lip... I k-... I remember cutting, cutting weight. That's probably one of my worst weight cuts ever. It was... I had a cold lip, like I started vomiting like all the fluid that I had in my body. Just stupid. I was doing 16 pounds, Joe. I was doing 16 pounds like the day of, the day of, pretty much the day of weigh-ins.

Joe Rogan 35:32 Wow.

Henry Cejudo 35:32 Like something stupid. And the only reason why I was doing something like that was because I felt... When you come from the sport of wrestling, like to me, making weight and doing everything that the MMA fighters were doing, I was like, "Man, these dudes are spoiled."

Joe Rogan 35:46 (laughs)

Henry Cejudo 35:46 "These dudes get 24, these, these dudes get close to about 30 hours before they fight." I says, "Man, that's, that's a lot of recovery time." So this is, this is, this is how stupid... This is the way I saw it and again, the age caught up to me. I would do the six... I would do the 16 pounds, I would murder myself, I would really hurt myself, make the weight, and then balloon back up. But there's came... There came a point by the time I turned 25, 26 that my body just started to shut down on me. Man, I just wasn't doing it right and that finally kicked me in the ass.

Joe Rogan 36:16 Mm.

Henry Cejudo 36:17 So imagine that.

Joe Rogan 36:18 So-

Henry Cejudo 36:18 UFC debut and I told Sean Shelby that I'm done. I ain't ever fighting again.

Joe Rogan 36:23 That's crazy.

Henry Cejudo 36:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:23 But let me ask you this. So was your thought process that because of the fact that these MMA guys get more time to recover, it's not like they have to weigh in the day of the wrestling match. They're, they're weighing in the day before the fight in the daytime. They don't have to fight and then, uh, eventually becoming the morning, right?

Henry Cejudo 36:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:39 So you have even more time and then they didn't have to fight until the next day at night. So you were like, "I'm gonna be heavier. I'm gonna come in bigger with a bigger advantage."

Henry Cejudo 36:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:47 Is that the idea?

Henry Cejudo 36:48 Yeah, I think so and now lo- looking, looking at it now, it's just... It's, it's dumb, dude. It's like you're...It's better to feel good than to feel bigger. Feel, being bigger is... Marlon was bigger than me.

Joe Rogan 37:01 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 37:02 You know, a lot of these dudes were bigger than me, but it didn't, it was-

Joe Rogan 37:04 Dominick was bigger than you.

Henry Cejudo 37:05 Dominick too.

Joe Rogan 37:06 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 37:07 Even TJ.

Joe Rogan 37:07 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 37:08 Even TJ when we did make fly weights, somehow he bul-... I was 146, so imagine that. I made 125 pounds, 124 pounds.

Joe Rogan 37:15 Did, TJ made the weight, right? Did he make the weight?

Henry Cejudo 37:17 Yeah, he made the weight and he was, he was 24 too.

Joe Rogan 37:20 (laughs)

Henry Cejudo 37:20 I ballooned up to 146 pounds, TJ ballooned up to 150 pounds. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:26 Dude, he looked worse-

Henry Cejudo 37:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:28 ... cutting weight, he looked worse showing up for the weigh-ins than I've ever seen anybody since Travis Luter. When Travis Luter missed weight against Anderson Silva. When Travis Luter missed weight against Anderson Silva, I'll never forget this, because I saw him when he missed the weight, and then I saw him, I was backstage while he was trying to continue to cut 'cause they gave him time to wai- make weight. And he couldn't lift his legs up to walk to the scale. He was shuffling, like shuffling towards the scale. His lips were all cracked.

Henry Cejudo 37:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:55 They're all sucked in. His face was sucked in. He was, he was literally on death's door. Like you could see it. He was on, he was d-... If I- if that guy was like released from a prison, like an overseas prison-

Henry Cejudo 38:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:07 ... I'd be like, "Oh my God, they were torturing him."

Henry Cejudo 38:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:08 They're, they, he's- he's about to die. Like I'd never seen a guy look so bad. He looked so fucking bad. And, uh, people forgot about Travis Luter.

Henry Cejudo 38:18 True.

Joe Rogan 38:18 Travis Luter was a beast, man. He was, he had some of the best jujitsu that the- anybody had ever seen in the Octagon up to that point. Everybody he fought, he submitted. He was so fucking good. But he wa- for whatever reason, when he had that big fight with Anderson Silva, he just couldn't keep it together. And I believe he had Anderson Silva down at one point in time in that fight too. Then Anderson Silva caught him in a triangle and elbowed him off of his back, and that's how, I believe that's how the fight got stopped. But-

Henry Cejudo 38:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:46 ... Travis was, uh, the worst I've ever seen, um, like for someone just about to make weight. Someone struggling to make weight.

Henry Cejudo 38:55 Yeah, but even you, you think about guys like that, the guys have, that have, could've potentially become a, a world champion. You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 39:02 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 39:02 Uh, so what happens when somebody loses, man? What are the stages, the emotions when somebody loses? You know what I'm saying?

Joe Rogan 39:08 Right.

Henry Cejudo 39:09 It's like there's a recovery process off of when people lose and, you know, I hate to say this, but I'll- I'll bring up, I'll bring up Marlon Marais a- again, you know? 'Cause I feel like I gave the blueprint. If you watch me fight him then you watch Aldo fight him, it's, these guys when they lose, they go through a certain psychology thing and you can see them. As a fighter, every time I do fight, I always look at their demeanor. I've always loo- I- I- I always pay attention to their demeanor from the first round, to the second round, to the third, as l- as far as it goes. And I've noticed that Marlon's demeanor was com- was changing. I noticed that in my fights when people's demeanor changes, like that's, to me that's, that- the- that's a breaking point that the mind has.

Joe Rogan 39:51 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 39:51 So I was able to see that with Marlon, then after that, aft- he was...

Joe Rogan 39:54 What, what did you see? You saw that he was slowing down? That he was-

Henry Cejudo 39:57 I saw he was, I saw he was slowing down, his, ear, his face starts to slouch, his shoulders start to drop. And then, uh, and then that's when I- I... You really can't see it in the video, but that's when I started talking to him about like, "All right, man. You ready? Let's go. Bring it. Give it to me." You know? This is during the fight. So you're able-

Joe Rogan 40:14 Was he talking back?

Henry Cejudo 40:15 No, he wasn't. He wasn't. And that's another reason is 'cause they're so tired, man, that they don't, they just don't have any energy.

Joe Rogan 40:19 Mm.

Henry Cejudo 40:19 Even McGregor and people like that. But what I'm trying to get to is guys that lose, if you don't recover from your defeat, from your loss, if you don't get therapy, if you don't understand the reasons why you lost, man, you're screwed, man.

Joe Rogan 40:33 Therapy.

Henry Cejudo 40:35 Therapy.

Joe Rogan 40:35 Have you gotten that?

Henry Cejudo 40:37 Um, yeah. Yeah, like thery... But, but it's- it's more, for me it was more like a reali- uh, realization the first time I lost to Demetrious Johnson and getting knocked out in two minutes and 36 seconds, man. It's like to me the worst thing that could happen to a fighter, and the worst scenario that something can happen to somebody and get stopped, is getting kneed to the body. You're conscious, Joe. You're conscious and this dude's kneeing you from left to right. And then your eyes are open and you've had enough and then you see Big John McCarthy waving his hands and you're knowing that he's making the right call, but you're still conscious. You still wanna go, but you can't.

Joe Rogan 41:11 Right, your body's shut off.

Henry Cejudo 41:12 In front of 20,000 people.

Joe Rogan 41:15 (laughs)

Henry Cejudo 41:15 In fr- you know, with Joe Rogan commentating. I mean, it's, it's miserable and it's terrible, but it's a certain therapy, it's a certain acceptance that you gotta go through in order for you to come out of that. It's like-

Joe Rogan 41:26 And what, what did you do afterwards?

Henry Cejudo 41:29 F-... I let go of coaches, man. I let go of coaches. I started traveling the world. I mean, I went to Asia, I went to, uh-

Joe Rogan 41:35 What'd you do in Asia?

Henry Cejudo 41:36 I went out to, uh, Singapore. I went to Evolve.

Joe Rogan 41:38 Mm.

Henry Cejudo 41:38 I spent about a month out there. I went to, uh-

Joe Rogan 41:40 Oh yeah? Just to train?

Henry Cejudo 41:41 Just to train. Just to go find like the best minds of, of mixed martial arts and just of basis too. I went out to, uh, you know, to Holland for a month. I would go out to Brazil and just-

Joe Rogan 41:53 What'd you do in Holland?

Henry Cejudo 41:54 In Holland, I- I- I- I trained out with, I trained with, uh, Paulo Matos. He's- he's- he's- he's Andy Souwer's coach.

Joe Rogan 41:59 Oh, wow.

Henry Cejudo 42:00 Yeah, so I was with them and just training with them and just, just humbling yourself, I guess y- I guess y- I guess I could say. And obviously, throughout this whole time, it's like, man, I, I was on a quest 'cause I still had Demetrious Johnson. Like I wasn't gonna retire from the sport without h- without me giving him a fair shake. So I knew that it had something to do not just with the body, but with the mind 'cause it's almost like you gotta come out of this, man. Like y- like... It was, uh, uh, almost like you can call it a mistake or whatnot, but the reality is is you lost, man. There's holes in your game. So I always tell people, it's like don't face it... I'm sorry, don't fake it til you make it. I don't like that. You have to face the shit. Once you face it, this is when you start to create, man, freaking overflowing success.

Joe Rogan 42:42 Did you know, like when you fought him, and uh... First of all, you fought the best version of Demetrious Johnson ever. The- the guy to, to this day I think is the best example of a mixed martial artist I've ever seen.

Henry Cejudo 42:53 Oh yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:54 I think Demetrious in his prime, he was so fucking good, man. He was so fast and he was so technical and he made such good decisions. His su- his footwork, his movement, like everything was so precise.... did you, did you say, "Okay, I see the gap. I see these holes and I know w- where he hit me. I know where there was mistakes made. I gotta tighten those up. How do I do that?"

Henry Cejudo 43:19 Yeah, h- he, Demetrious was so good everywhere, even in the wrestling. I can even tell you as an Olympic athlete, even in the wrestling, his timing was really good. So, I don't even think it was so much Demetrious Johnson. Like, obviously, it was a distance game, but it, it comes down to, like, s- such ... When you fight a guy like that, it comes down to such the minor details, man. And I think the minor detail for me was, was, was composure. And I remember right before I fought the dude, I, I, I noticed that, like, my corner, my team, that they were extremely nervous, Joe. Like my team, they're ... Dude, you imagine fighting somebody like Demetrious Johnson-

Joe Rogan 43:54 (laughs)

Henry Cejudo 43:54 ... and your coach does not have any faith in you? And I'm like, "What the f- " I'm like, "Shit then, are you kidding me?"

Joe Rogan 43:59 Well, he was a ghost back then. Demetrious was a ghost. I mean, he wasn't there for you. He would be swinging at air.

Henry Cejudo 44:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:07 He was just off to the side and then he was kneeing you in the body, and punching you in the face, and kicking your leg on the way out. And we should even say in the second fight, the fight that you won, he got you with that low calf kick and your leg went numb.

Henry Cejudo 44:19 Yeah, he hit the peroneal nerve which numbs, like, all the nerves to your feet. So it sleeps it, and then when you try to lay your foot down, like, if ... Your foot's still awake, so I even sprained it in the first round. Pff-

Joe Rogan 44:30 It was crazy to see.

Henry Cejudo 44:30 But this is the mi- yeah, but, but this is the mind power that I had, Joe. It was a survival round, as you say. I went back to the corner and I thought to myself, this is how, this is, this is, this is how crazy I was. Like, "Hey," I just thought to myself, man, "How crazy is this gonna be when I beat this dude?"

Joe Rogan 44:46 (laughs)

Henry Cejudo 44:47 Like, I survived that first round. I says, "Man, this is gonna make my story, whatever I desired in my life, that much better because I went through adversity with this fucking dude again."

Joe Rogan 44:57 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 44:58 But, just to get back to the-

Joe Rogan 44:59 That's a great attitude right there.

Henry Cejudo 44:59 Yeah, just, yeah. That's what I'm saying.

Joe Rogan 45:01 That's a champion's mind.

Henry Cejudo 45:02 And even before ... So, I'm getting ready to walk out, I'm getting ready to fight Demetrious Johnson and I notice my team, like, they're still kinda like, you know, grabbing their fingers, you know. I'm pacing back and forth. And about a few hours before we went out to the arena, I, I talked to my team and I sat them here and I've been like ... And I sat my whole team down, just, like, almost like a dad. And I'm like, "Listen, man," I says, "I need you guys to trust me and have faith in me." The key plan to beating this dude ... Like, I know this dude's the greatest of all time, but I know what I've done in wrestling and I can replicate that what I've done in mixed martial arts, man. The only thing I'm gonna ask from you guys, is for you guys to be composed. For you guys to be composed, man. Don't, don't over yell, stay calm. Like, whatever happens in the fight, man, I just need you guys to bear with me and have faith in me, 'cause I'm gonna-

Joe Rogan 45:48 You got a coach of coaches.

Henry Cejudo 45:50 Y- yeah, in some way, man.

Joe Rogan 45:51 (laughs)

Henry Cejudo 45:51 And it's crazy to say that. So then right when I'm getting ready, check this out, Joe. So right when I'm getting ready to walk out, you know, right before I walk out first, 'cause I was gonna walk out and then Demetrious, and I still noticed my coach was still a little nervous and I looked at him, I says, "Hey, guys, remember, composure, man. Composure." Like, I was so ready for this dude. So then I go in there, I get kicked in the first 30 seconds, dude. My leg starts to wobble and so forth. You know, it was a survival round. I allow him to win, whatever. I think he won, I think he won the first, I won the second, he won the third. And then, uh, and then I believe I won the fourth and I won the fifth. And then after this whole thing, check this out, Joe, he, uh, um, Demetrious Johnson was on Ariel Helwani and then Ariel Helwani asked him, he's like, "Hey, Demetrious, just one last question." He was like, "What's one thing that surprised you about Henry?" And Demetrious Johnson said, "Well, I knew he was gonna be fast. I knew he was strong, but there's one thing that really did surprise me with Henry. It was the fact that he was so relaxed." You know? So it's these tactical things, and everybody that you fight is completely different.

Joe Rogan 46:55 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 46:55 You know, you can have a certain word that you can put up here, but I knew that being composed and relaxed and not overreacting to Demetrious Johnson, that that would win me the fight for this fight. And there's a lot more to it.

Joe Rogan 47:06 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 47:06 It was me being, uh, knowing when to fight and knowing when to compete. It's me being a little theatrical, like, bumping my fists, like, conveying the judges. Those little things that you learn as, as a veteran of competition-

Joe Rogan 47:17 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 47:17 ... that you can even convey the judges. So there's even acting going on, Joe.

Joe Rogan 47:21 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 47:22 You know, I'm telling you guys all my secrets here. But in reality, there is, man. That's ... I'm just a winner. I, I just, the only thing I just know how to do is know how to win.

Joe Rogan 47:30 How are you gonna step away from this? Come on, Henry! How are we gonna do this?

Henry Cejudo 47:35 Show me the money! (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:37 I'm, I'm torn. Uh, this ... Like I said in the beginning, man, I feel both ways. And one, I'm happy when a fighter gets out on top of the game like you. Like, one of my favorite boxing stories of all time is Marvin Hagler.

Henry Cejudo 47:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:49 You know why? 'Cause he fought Sugar Ray Leonard. I think he got robbed to this day. I think he won the decision. They gave it to Sugar Ray and then he, he backed away. That's sage.

Henry Cejudo 47:59 What you, what you got here? You smoking this show?

Joe Rogan 48:00 No, bro. No, you light it up to kill the demons in the room.

Henry Cejudo 48:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:04 This, uh, Native American lady gave me this.

Henry Cejudo 48:06 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:06 She came in to talk to us about ... I got in this, uh, long kick of, uh, reading about Native American history.

Henry Cejudo 48:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:14 Uh, they actually, um, a lot of them refer to themselves as American Indians, but, uh, and then this lady came in and was ... Educated me on a lot of the issues and brought me some sage to clear out all the bad spirits.

Henry Cejudo 48:25 Yeah. No, I, I, I've, uh, I- I believe in a lot, I believe in a lot of these rituals and whatnot. Actually, not too long ago, I was actually with, uh, with Uncle Mike.

Joe Rogan 48:32 Yeah, you told me that.

Henry Cejudo 48:33 With Mike Tyson and, uh-

Joe Rogan 48:35 Let's get rid of demons right now, bro.

Henry Cejudo 48:37 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:38 Demons, be gone.

Henry Cejudo 48:39 They'll start, they'll start shaking back there, man.

Joe Rogan 48:42 No, we'll be all right. Jamie's no demon.

Henry Cejudo 48:46 Never know.

Joe Rogan 48:47 Yeah, but I was able to, uh ... 'Cause you know, as- as you know Mike, Mike has always talked about the toad, you know?

Henry Cejudo 48:52 Yes.

Joe Rogan 48:53 And I believe you've done the toad too.

Henry Cejudo 48:55 Yeah, what the toad is, what you're referring to, is, is 5-methoxydimethyltryptamine. That's excreted by the toad's skin. Um, they, they take this, uh, type of toad. I forget the name of the toad, but they, uh-

Joe Rogan 49:09 ... get it excited and excrete this stuff from its skin onto glass. And then they leave that glass out in the sun and it dries, that excretion dries. And then they scrape it up with a razor blade and then you smoke that stuff. Or, you could just get a synthetic version of it. Colorado River toad, that's what it is.

Henry Cejudo 49:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:28 Sonoran Desert toad.

Henry Cejudo 49:29 Yeah, Sonoran.

Joe Rogan 49:31 Yeah. And, uh, you can find the center of the universe through the excretions of this toad's body.

Henry Cejudo 49:36 Oh my God, it's a trip.

Joe Rogan 49:39 It's crazy.

Henry Cejudo 49:39 Joe, it's a trip. So anyways-

Joe Rogan 49:41 Have you done anything before this? Before you did this, did y- have you had any experiences with psychedelics?

Henry Cejudo 49:46 Yeah, I've done like, I've, I've, you know, I've done mushrooms and obviously I smoke, which I don't know where all the-

Joe Rogan 49:52 weed?

Henry Cejudo 49:52 ... Mary Jane is, but, uh-

Joe Rogan 49:53 It's right here, bro. You want some? Come on, you're retired.

Henry Cejudo 49:55 Yeah, why not, man?

Joe Rogan 49:56 Come on, Jeff Novitzky. Leave him alone.

Henry Cejudo 50:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:00 Novitzky actually wanted everybody to be able to.

Henry Cejudo 50:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:02 He's the, one of the first guys to say it's nonsense. It's j- it's not a performance enhancer. Although, with Nick Diaz, I think it might be.

Henry Cejudo 50:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:10 I think with Nick Diaz, it might actually be a performance enhancer.

Henry Cejudo 50:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:13 I really think so, man. When he fought Gomi, they said he h- he had to have gotten high. He had so much weed in his system when they tested him that he had to have gotten high right before the fight.

Henry Cejudo 50:23 Yeah. Light that up, Joey. Puff, puff, pass, or... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:30 Of course.

Henry Cejudo 50:32 So I'm gonna share my story with you, Joe.

Joe Rogan 50:34 Please do.

Henry Cejudo 50:34 And I want you to share yours with me.

Joe Rogan 50:36 Okay.

Henry Cejudo 50:40 What type of leaf is this?

Joe Rogan 50:42 Well, that's, um, tobacco on the outside, so it's a blunt, you know, and then the inside's the weed. I get this from Speed Weed. Shout out to my man Gino. Gino Gentile.

Henry Cejudo 50:53 Well, anyways, so check this out. You imagine, you imagine doing the toad with, uh, with somebody like Mike?

Joe Rogan 50:58 I- I did high with Mike and I got nervous.

Henry Cejudo 51:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:01 Just, well, I'm nervous when I meet him. Look, he was one of my heroes. When I was a kid, Mike Tyson was the fucking man. I mean, in a way that it's hard for people to convey today, to understand what a cultural figure Mike Tyson was in like 1986. It's hard to convey. You're not gonna, no one's gonna understand. Youngest ever heavyweight champion. You know, knocks out Trevor Berbick when he's 20 years old. He was a-

Henry Cejudo 51:28 Yeah. He was the same guy that beat Ali, right?

Joe Rogan 51:30 Trevor Berbick, you know, beat Ali late in his career when it was real sad. It was a real sad fight.

Henry Cejudo 51:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:35 It was a real sad fight.

Henry Cejudo 51:36 But it's touching. Remember when Ali went in the ring and gave s- gave Mike like a little pep talk.

Joe Rogan 51:42 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 51:43 You know?

Joe Rogan 51:44 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 51:44 And then Mike, and then Mike went out there and knocked that dude out in the first round.

Joe Rogan 51:46 Yeah, yeah.

Henry Cejudo 51:47 Priceless.

Joe Rogan 51:48 Yeah, Muhammad Ali was like, "Fuck this dude up for me, will ya?" (laughs)

Henry Cejudo 51:50 Yeah, yeah. Well, anyways, to get back to that, Joe.

Joe Rogan 51:54 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 51:55 So, you know, so you know, I- I've been ha- I've actually been shadowing Mike for like, Mi- Mike Tyson for like the last... I'm, I'm good friends with, uh, with his manager, Rob, Rob Hickman.

Joe Rogan 52:02 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 52:03 And, uh, just the stuff that they're doing at Tyson Ranch, man, is, uh, it's pretty cool, man.

Joe Rogan 52:06 Yeah, it's really cool, right?

Henry Cejudo 52:08 Yeah. They're, they're bringing medicine to the world. So Mike, I've been on his pod because he's always talked about the toad. I was like, "All right." And then also I became good friends with him. I call him Uncle Mike, man, because he just, you know, he schools me a lot. Every time he sees me, he's all, you know, he, he'll compliment me but then he'll school me at the same time.

Joe Rogan 52:23 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 52:23 So he always talked about the toad and I'm just like, "Well, let's, let's do it then, Mike. Let's do it, Uncle Mike." So he's like, "Man, dude. You sure you want..." I'm like, "Yeah, man. You've been talking about it for a minute." So, you know, so we go out and we go on this, uh, pr- uh, you know, they, they have this whole real nice setup with rituals and whatnot, and we go out to, uh, to Antigua, which is an island off the, off the Caribbean. We have, uh, a- I forget what they're called. Uh, the person that, uh...

Joe Rogan 52:46 A shaman?

Henry Cejudo 52:47 Yeah, a shaman. I'm sorry. And, uh, he's out there and then, you know, Mike goes first. So Mike Ty- imagine this is Mike Tyson does it and he's, you know, Mike Tyson's, Mike Tyson's, he's, he's doing it. He's, he's going, he's going a bit crazy, man, because a lot of what, what that, what that does is it brings out your, a lot of your, as you say, you know, you open up and sees a lot of your demons.

Joe Rogan 53:04 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 53:04 Or a lot of things that you probably been holding onto for a minute.

Joe Rogan 53:07 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 53:08 So I'm seeing, I'm seeing Mike over here twist and turn and kind of, you know, talk about a lot of... I don't want to share that stuff, but you know, talk about a lot, a lot of his past, man.

Joe Rogan 53:17 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 53:17 It's me as you said, he's, he's an idol, he's a legend. You know, that's the way I look at Mike too. So I'm over here hearing that, I'm just, I'm almost like tripping out, but at the same time intrigued.

Joe Rogan 53:28 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 53:28 You know, because... So then I go up and I do it, and, uh, man, it took me to, uh, especially out of retirement here, man. Like I- I would, I was kind of somewhat wanted answers. I was hoping that it would give me, okay, man, this is like the path or whatnot. And, uh, it took me, it took me to like, it took me to my mom's like, your mom's like first love, man. You know, and it showed me like in a story, almost like in a movie, you know. How I was born, how my mom had me, how I, how by the time I was eight years old, like I had my sister so I was no longer the youngest. How my mom kind of like, you know, in all fairness, kind of somewhat pushed me to the side. Leaving home at the age of 17 and, and, and substituting my mom's love for self-fulfillment, wrestling, uh, mixed martial arts. And it brought me back to a little kid when I was, uh, maybe four or five when I would cry to my mom, because I remember as a kid we would go, uh, we would go from LA to New Mexico like in Greyhounds. I remember stopping at McDonald's and things like that. But to me, you know, as a kid, you don't know you're poor. But what that did is that brought me back to the person that created me, that brought me back to my mom's love, man. So it like, it like resurrected something in me, and I was crying and I was asking for like forgiveness, I was speaking in Spanish, "Ma, perdoname." Like, "Mom, forgive me."

Joe Rogan 54:48 Wow.

Henry Cejudo 54:48 It was something, uh, it was something scary in some ways because it does ta- it's, it takes you out of your, your body like it's, it's almost like you're in judgment day and you're the one that's being convicted and you're the judge too.

Joe Rogan 55:02 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 55:02 And it's telling you but it's giving you this certain peace. It's like you're so dead that you're alive.

Joe Rogan 55:09 Whoa.

Henry Cejudo 55:10 It's a trip, Joe. I don't know which ones you had but this is what I can share, what, what I can experience. Like it was-

Joe Rogan 55:15 Mm.

Henry Cejudo 55:16 ... it was cool, man, 'cause I was able to do it with special people. I did it with Kelvin. Like we all did it. L- it was, it was already formally planned. I know my brother back there, my mentor, are probably pissed at me 'cause they look out for me a lot. But man, it was something that, you know, as an adult, you know, you have the rights to, to make these decisions and, and share if it's good. And I feel like the toad was probably one of the best things that's, uh, that's happened to me. Like honestly, 'cause it, it makes you realize and reflect on what truly matters.

Joe Rogan 55:42 I think there's a fear of it just because it's illegal. I really think that's it. And it should be respected. It's very dangerous in that sense, that it could... Not, uh, not that it could do harm to you physically if it's the real deal. It's not gonna do harm to you physically. Your body has it in it. Your body knows what to do with it. It's one of the reasons why it's such a quick trip. Your body knows how to bring that stuff back to baseline very quickly. That's why it's only like a 15-minute trip.

Henry Cejudo 56:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:08 Um, but it's not, it's not bad for you all the time. I think it's like many... It's a, it's a really powerful thing that's g-... It's gotta be respected. It could fuck you up if you're not ready, if you have some distorted versions of the world that you're operating under. For me, one of the things that made me feel like right away, one of the first things was realizing how much of like the way I talk about things is like calculated. I was like... I was trying to figure out like I would say things in a way that I wanted people to say, "Oh, he phrased that cool." Like I wou- I would try hard to impress people with the way I was saying things. And I was realizing that as I was trying to describe the trip after it was over. I was like, "That's interesting." Like, so that probably leads to a disconnect between me and someone who's listening because it's not 100% what's going on in my head. It's at least a little bit showmanship and bullshit. And it made me realize it in that moment, like and I think it probably made me a better everything. It probably made me a better comedian, probably made me a better podcasters ever.

Henry Cejudo 57:17 Oh, so it's been a minute. When was it... When, when did you do this for the first time?

Joe Rogan 57:20 The first time I did it was early 2000s.

Henry Cejudo 57:23 Oh, damn.

Joe Rogan 57:24 So (exhales) I guess we're looking at like 2002-ish, somewhere around then.

Henry Cejudo 57:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:30 That was like the first time I did it. Last time I did it was about two years ago. But the last time I did it, I did the other kind, the N,N-dimethyltry-... Actually, maybe a little less than two years ago. A little less than two years ago, um, it was N,N-dimethyltryptamine, which is, um... That's the different version. That's the version of it that's in ayahuasca. That's the version of... There's a bunch of different snuffs and different ways that people try to, uh-

Henry Cejudo 57:56 (coughs)

Joe Rogan 57:56 ... to get that stuff into their system, but smoking it is the quickest. Smoking it gets you (sniffs) you vaporize it and it gets you right to the center of the universe immediately. And, um, all those things... You know, I think, man, one of the cool things about life, (exhales) like what you're talking about in your journey, your journey, uh, as a p- as a, as a man, your journey as a champion, your journey to become better and to, to show what you're capable of, this... All of this is because no one gets it right. You don't just get it right. Like you fuck it up and you try to do better. And you, you fail and then you figure out what went wrong. And you, you just constantly analyze whatever you're doing and obsess on it. And you can become better at that thing. And through that, you can understand that you could be better at anything. And I think when you... Any kind of psychedelic where you have an opportunity to look at yourself, just really look at yourself accurately, you're not gonna like it. (laughs)

Henry Cejudo 59:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:04 But it's gonna give you great benefit because it's gonna give you... You're gonna be able to see yourself honestly and see whatever those fla-... Just don't get mad that you have all these flaws. Just fix them. Just fix them. Do your best to fix them. And you're not gonna get it right because ego is still gonna come creeping back in your life. (coughs) And ego is still gonna hold onto your legs and drag you down while you're trying to run.

Henry Cejudo 59:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:26 You know? That's what it is. Ego's like-

Henry Cejudo 59:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:28 ... hanging on your ankles while you're trying to run, like, "Come on, stay the same."

Henry Cejudo 59:32 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:32 But you can't stay the same and get better. The way you get better is to relax and to, to realize that, you know, all, all your fuck-ups, all the fails, all that, that's not you. Just 'cause you lost a match doesn't mean you're a loser. You just lost.

Henry Cejudo 59:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:47 Like you should be happy that you got this opportunity to feel terrible 'cause through that opportune- opportunity to feel terrible, that's where all the growth comes from if you can survive it. Some people can't survive it, right? You all know... We all know those guys that were really good in the gym and they had like one or two matches or one or two fights and they just couldn't handle the pressure for whatever reason. They couldn't handle the, the, the things that went wrong and they just didn't want to do it anymore, but they could have been like a world-beater. You know? You, you... Everyone knows that guy.

Henry Cejudo 1:00:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:16 Right?

Henry Cejudo 1:00:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:16 And what is wrong with that guy? Well, that guy has got one aspect of your two-part thing that you were talking about, heart and ability, right? He's got one aspect.

Henry Cejudo 1:00:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:26 He's got the ability, but it's this-

Henry Cejudo 1:00:28 It's so hard.

Joe Rogan 1:00:29 He's, he's got a missing part-

Henry Cejudo 1:00:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:30 ... and he doesn't want to look at it. 'Cause if he wanted to look at it, he would concentrate entirely on that-

Henry Cejudo 1:00:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:34 ... and he would get better at that. But it's hard.

Henry Cejudo 1:00:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:37 It's hard to look at yourself. Psychedelics let you look at yourself. Like, "Hey, stupid."

Henry Cejudo 1:00:42 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:42 "Look at you." Remember the last time I did DMT, there was a, a, a string of jokers, like jesters with the bells on, dancing in front of me going like this, "Fuck you."

Henry Cejudo 1:00:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:54 Just openly mocking me. And I was like, "Oh, that must be what I need."

Henry Cejudo 1:00:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:58 "I must need that." I'm like, "That's good. That's good to see."

Henry Cejudo 1:01:01 Yeah. It's th- It's definitely a, it's definitely an ego check, man. Big time, dude.

Joe Rogan 1:01:05 Dissolves it.

Henry Cejudo 1:01:06 Man, like, like with Mike, like he loves the dude and-

Joe Rogan 1:01:09 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 1:01:09 ... he's, you know... He, he owes it to the, to the toad. You know what I'm saying? Like th- that's something that he, he, he said that's been a big reason why he's changed his life, you know. Mike wasn't doing so well until-

Joe Rogan 1:01:19 Yeah.

Henry Cejudo 1:01:19 ... until he tried this and he... You know, he talks about it all the time on his podcast, so I mean it's-

Joe Rogan 1:01:24 It gives you an opportunity to shift.

Henry Cejudo 1:01:26 It's qu- It's he- Heals drug addicts. I mean, drug addicts-

Joe Rogan 1:01:29 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 1:01:29 ... have gone from doing all kinds of crazy... When they try the toad and they completely just left everything.

Joe Rogan 1:01:32 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 1:01:33 Guys that they left like almost like a dead man walking to, "Hey, he's alive again."

Joe Rogan 1:01:37 Mm-hmm.

Henry Cejudo 1:01:37 "He's here with us."

Joe Rogan 1:01:38 Yeah.... I think, um, a lot of diseases of addiction are diseases of, of despair. Right? It's like disease of the mind and wanting to squash those demons and drown them out. The, the anxiety, the fear, the depression, the, the, the, the, you know, just the terrible feelings you have about who you are. You know? Maybe you're homeless, maybe your life's falling apart, but you're alive right now and you can't handle it. You can't handle where you're at, you can't handle who you are, you can't handle what people have done to you, so you just throw drugs in there, throw drugs in there. And something like DMT or, um, you know, there's a bunch of different sort of psychedelics that can do it. For a lot of people, it's ibogaine. Ibogaine is a big one for drug addicts. People have, uh, real issues with opiates. Ibogaine knocks it outta the park with those people. It s- it cures a giant number... See what is the... See if you can Google the percentage of people who are cured of addictions by ibogaine. Ibogaine is... It comes from the... I've never done this, with all due respect and full disclosure. It's, it was, uh, it's from the iboga tree. I believe it's from Africa. And there's something about this drug that just kills all ideas that you have of addiction and rewires your brain. And it's insanely effective and, but ruthless. It can... It's like a 24-hour experience.

Henry Cejudo 1:03:07 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 1:03:08 Look at this.

Henry Cejudo 1:03:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:09 One doctor reported 70 to 80% success rate with effective aftercare. He added that when people recovering from meth addiction took ibogaine, but returned to the same environment where they'd originally abused meth, there was a 90% relapse rate. That's not good. (laughs)

Henry Cejudo 1:03:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:27 So that's terrible. So you have to do it and then get out. Or maybe it's meth. Maybe meth's just like super hard to kick.

Henry Cejudo 1:03:34 Could be.

Joe Rogan 1:03:34 What's the hardest one to kick?

Henry Cejudo 1:03:35 (laughs) Yeah. Prozac.

Joe Rogan 1:03:37 I've never fucked with... I've never... Just no.

Henry Cejudo 1:03:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:39 Eddie Bravo and I were talking about this once. He's... We were both saying this. Like, there's no meth advocates. Like people are telling you-

Henry Cejudo 1:03:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:46 ... you should take weed. Like, "Bro, weed will calm you down."

Henry Cejudo 1:03:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:49 "Weed will make you more friendly." There's, there's weed evangelists. There's no, like, meth guys.

Henry Cejudo 1:03:54 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:54 You know what I'm saying?

Henry Cejudo 1:03:55 That's funny. In Ozark that comes up at the end. She's like, "I wanna start those treatment centers."

Joe Rogan 1:03:59 Yes, yes.

Henry Cejudo 1:04:00 At the same time.

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 Don't... Don't spoil it.

Henry Cejudo 1:04:02 I was trying not to. I was trying not to figure out a scene.

Joe Rogan 1:04:02 Yeah, no. You did a good job.

Henry Cejudo 1:04:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:04 Yeah. That, that didn't give away too much, enough. But Goddamn, it's, uh, it's, there's something about, uh, having any sort of a psychedelic experience and it just makes you realize how you, how badly you're fucking up. And for some people that's enough. Like the whole reason why they would do a psychedelic if they were addicted also is because they realized they were fucking up and they're looking for some way to change. You know, those good feelings that you have, man. Like when, when you beat Dominic Cruz and you raised your hands at the end of that fight and you knew it was gonna be over. You knew it was gonna be over. You knew you were, you were gonna go down in history no matter what. Even if you step away right now, one of the... I know you say the greatest, but I mean just in the fairness of experts.

Henry Cejudo 1:04:45 In combat.

Joe Rogan 1:04:46 You were-

Henry Cejudo 1:04:46 In combat sports.

Joe Rogan 1:04:46 ... one of the greatest of all time, for sure. Olympic gold medalist, two division world champion. That's, that's un- unheard of. And you're doing it all in a super technical division. Both of them, 25 and 35, super technical divisions. Everybody's a wizard. And then we saw that this weekend, man. Holy shit, what a weekend for the bantamweight division, right?

Henry Cejudo 1:05:09 Yeah, it's exciting, man. There's a lot of, there's a lot of good people out there. The resurrection too of Cody.

Joe Rogan 1:05:14 Dude, Cody looked so good. He didn't just look so good, he looked so fucking fast. So fast and technical. I mean, it was super impressive. But so was Aljamain Sterling.

Henry Cejudo 1:05:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:27 Aljamain's ch- choking out Sandhagen like that and being able to do it in under two minutes, that's crazy.

Henry Cejudo 1:05:33 Yeah, that is, man. That's so nice.

Joe Rogan 1:05:35 Crazy.

Henry Cejudo 1:05:35 And especially the guy who he beat and how he beat him.

Joe Rogan 1:05:38 Dude.

Henry Cejudo 1:05:38 Sandhagen, he's...

Joe Rogan 1:05:39 Sandhagen's a beast.

Henry Cejudo 1:05:40 Yeah. He's the, he's the real deal, man. He's the real deal.

Joe Rogan 1:05:42 That was the fight that I was thinking on the card was gonna be the most difficult to call.

Henry Cejudo 1:05:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:47 I was like, "Who's gonna win that one? I don't know 'cause they're both so good." And Sandhagen's just surging, but Aljo just shut it all down, man. The way he did it, just so intense. Right? Like he hits a new level, you know? You know how sometimes a fighter will just hit a new level?

Henry Cejudo 1:06:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:05 Now when you think about him, you... It's probably hard for you because that's, that's your division.

Henry Cejudo 1:06:10 Yeah, but I, again, his wrestling... I, I break people down, like even, even through their mentality. I, I study the... Fighters I'm gonna study, I study their mental game too and how they do interviews. And I'll give you two examples. And I, and I feel like, uh, I, I feel like Aljamain Sterling is, uh, almost the same thing as, as Demetrious Johnson, just in the concept of, uh, my wrestling. Just because of my wrestling, I feel extremely confident with my hands and I know he can't take me down. I know he won't take me down. So I know there's a game pack set in place where I can be a little more offensive with somebody-

Joe Rogan 1:06:45 Hmm.

Henry Cejudo 1:06:45 ... like Aljamain Sterling. And actually, let's talk two... Let's talk about Sean O'Malley. I'm just... I just wanna break these dudes down real quick.

Joe Rogan 1:06:50 Okay, okay.

Henry Cejudo 1:06:51 Even somebody like him, listen to his interviews. And you, you study these guys and you see where, where their mindset is and