JRE MMA Show #98 with Luke Thomas

1. 0:02 – 2:23

   Pandemic travel, casinos, and why mask compliance breaks down

   1. NANarrator0:02

      (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Hello, Luke.

   3. LTLuke Thomas0:13

      Hi, Joe.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      We did it.

   5. LTLuke Thomas0:14

      We made it.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      We finally made it happen.

   7. LTLuke Thomas0:15

      I wasn't sure it was gonna happen.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Yeah, well, uh, kudos to you for taking the chance to come here during the pandemic.

   9. LTLuke Thomas0:22

      I know. The all, uh, very oppressive pandemic. Well, we were supposed to do it in March.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       Yeah.

   11. LTLuke Thomas0:26

       And then, the world turned upside-down.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:28

       Literally.

   13. LTLuke Thomas0:29

       Uh, (laughs) basically. But we figured out a way.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       Yeah.

   15. LTLuke Thomas0:31

       Here we are.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       We're here. Yeah. It's, um ... Is it -- W- you said you did some traveling. What'd you do traveling for before this?

   17. LTLuke Thomas0:36

       So, I went to the Charlo Brothers double-header-

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       Oh, okay.

   19. LTLuke Thomas0:38

       ... in Mohegan Sun, uh, wh- which was interesting, 'cause I got there early in the week and the casino was empty. Yeah, that bitch was slamming by Saturday night. I was not -- I had not been in crowds since March, right? So that was a little bit weird. But, uh ...

   20. JRJoe Rogan0:50

       So, the casino's packed?

   21. LTLuke Thomas0:52

       It was packed. Yeah. Not like, not like, to the rafters, but crowded.

   22. NANarrator0:57

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:57

       Do they have rules, like with masks, or-

   24. LTLuke Thomas0:59

       Well, it's, it's Native American territory; they make their rules. So, yes.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       Yeah.

   26. LTLuke Thomas1:01

       I mean, they do have the normal protocol, like, there's, uh, hand sanitizing stations everywhere.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:06

       Mm-hmm.

   28. LTLuke Thomas1:06

       You have to wear a mask. But if you're at the table and you're drinking, they just pull the mask right down.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:11

       (exhales)

   30. LTLuke Thomas1:11

       Yeah, and like ... And even if it wasn't that, it's like, can you imagine how fucking dirty those poker chips are?
2. 2:23 – 4:22

   The 'space suit' future and how viral dose affects COVID severity

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:23

      Have you seen the new things? Like, the, these new hazmat suits that they're selling? Like, it's literally, like ... Go to John Joseph, uh, John Joseph Chromag.

   2. LTLuke Thomas2:32

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:32

      Go to his, uh, Instagram page. Do you know John Joseph from Chromags?

   4. LTLuke Thomas2:36

      I do not. You'll have to forgive me.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:37

      Uh, he was, uh, he's the lead singer of the Chromags, but he's also a triathlete-

   6. LTLuke Thomas2:40

      Okay.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:40

      ... and, you know. He is a firm believer in strengthening your own immune system, and-

   8. LTLuke Thomas2:44

      Yeah, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:44

      ... he, uh-

   10. LTLuke Thomas2:45

       There's something to be said for that.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:46

       Look at this.

   12. NANarrator2:47

       I bet you anything after this, I'm like, "Holy shit."

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:47

       Look at this.

   14. LTLuke Thomas2:48

       Holy Mother of Jesus.

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:51

       (laughs) We're s- we're in space. I mean, this is, this is the future, and it apparently has some fog-proof, uh, n- attachment some way, somehow or another, and you're, you put your hand ... If you have to scratch your face, there's little, uh, zips on the side-

   16. LTLuke Thomas3:06

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan3:06

       ... that you put your hand through.

   18. LTLuke Thomas3:07

       You know, I, I appreciate the spirit of innovation here.

   19. JRJoe Rogan3:10

       (laughs)

   20. LTLuke Thomas3:10

       But this is a Black, uh, Mirror episode, right?

   21. JRJoe Rogan3:13

       It is. It is. It is. Well, you know, you talk ... H- how many people do you know that have gotten it?

   22. LTLuke Thomas3:18

       A bunch.

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:19

       Yeah, me too. Jamie's the, the latest. Jamie, uh ... But they're saying, it's which inter- which is, which is very interesting, they're saying it really depends upon what kinda dose you're getting.

   24. LTLuke Thomas3:29

       Right.

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:30

       You obviously got a very mild dose and you had a very mild case of it. And-

   26. LTLuke Thomas3:33

       That's why the masks are important, right? Because-

   27. JRJoe Rogan3:34

       Yeah.

   28. LTLuke Thomas3:35

       ... even if you get it, if someone has it op- you know, they're not wearing it properly, you're just not al- you're not getting sprayed-

   29. JRJoe Rogan3:40

       Right.

   30. LTLuke Thomas3:40

       ... with this huge amount.
3. 4:22 – 7:43

   PTSD in ERs and policing: trauma exposure, training gaps, and reform complexity

   1. LTLuke Thomas4:22

      I know a guy who was a, uh, an ER doctor in New York in ... He's still there now, obviously, but through March. This doesn't get talked about, but it was worth mentioning. There is ... We, uh ... So I, I knew a bunch of people that went to Iraq, 'cause I was in the Marine Corps, but I got out right before my unit sent, so I was very, very lucky in that regard. But a bunch of them came back super fucked up, you know. They're all fine now, but super fucked up. These doctors who were in New York in March, they all have PTSD.

   2. JRJoe Rogan4:47

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LTLuke Thomas4:48

      Watching day after day ... Remember, there was a, there was times when New York was losing 800 people a day.

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:52

      Mm-hmm.

   5. LTLuke Thomas4:53

      And he was telling me, like, you know, you hold up enough phones to someone who's dying, and so their kids are crying on the other end of FaceTime, and you do that day after day after day. He started smoking-

   6. JRJoe Rogan5:02

      Oh.

   7. LTLuke Thomas5:02

      ... like, the whole thing. Uh, we don't talk enough about that. I don't think it's bad enough now. And he was even saying, he's like, "If you're 25, you're fine." But like, all of these at-risk folks just coming in and collapsing-

   8. JRJoe Rogan5:13

      Mm-hmm.

   9. LTLuke Thomas5:13

      ... one after the other, it fucked him up, big time.

   10. JRJoe Rogan5:16

       I can only imagine. You know, this is the, uh, also falls in line with the, the conversation that I've been having a lot about cops. Like ...

   11. LTLuke Thomas5:23

       Oh, God.

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:24

       It doesn't ... People don't understand what it is to be a cop. Like, you, all you see is these terrible videos like George Floyd.

   13. LTLuke Thomas5:31

       Right.

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:31

       You know? Just imagine being a person who, every day, you're seeing suicide, murder, rape, car accidents. You, you're constantly worried that the next car you pull over is gonna be the guy that shoots you in the head.

   15. LTLuke Thomas5:42

       Right. And you've had improper training, probably.

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:44

       Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. For sure.

   17. LTLuke Thomas5:45

       You're asked, you're asked to do responsibilities-

   18. JRJoe Rogan5:46

       Yeah.

   19. LTLuke Thomas5:46

       ... you couldn't possibly handle.

   20. JRJoe Rogan5:48

       Yeah.

   21. LTLuke Thomas5:48

       Uh, the policy failures of the world are just pushed onto you.

   22. JRJoe Rogan5:51

       Mm-hmm.

   23. LTLuke Thomas5:51

       And, uh, you know, you pr- uh, you have to deal with the dregs of society. Like, certainly, obviously, the George Floyd murder is-

   24. JRJoe Rogan5:57

       Horrific.

   25. LTLuke Thomas5:57

       ... horrific in every way imaginable. But my stepfather, but ... My mom eventually got divorced, but I had a stepfather for a time, and he was a cop for 30 years in Washington DC. You know. I'm not saying he had the most enlightened ideas of the world, but when you spend a few months in the hospital 'cause they broke all your ribs-... and (laughs) you had to deal with, you know, a two-year-old with a gun, and, uh, you know, every other situation, it will warp you. It will affect your moral calculations, and if you have improper training and improper funding, it only exacerbates the problem. Like, we ask cops to do way too much shit, and, um, it results in a lot of problems.

   26. JRJoe Rogan6:31

       And th- the job, th- like, now, good luck trying to find really intelligent people that could do other things. You know?

   27. LTLuke Thomas6:40

       Right.

   28. JRJoe Rogan6:40

       Right now, no one wants to be a cop, 'cause the cops are the bad guys.

   29. LTLuke Thomas6:43

       Right.

   30. JRJoe Rogan6:43

       Th- they're the enemies. And, y- you know, it's like, defunding the police is now, like, a mantra that the left likes to use.
4. 7:43 – 12:11

   Should cops train jiu-jitsu? Benefits, risks, incentives, and culture

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:43

      Yeah. It's a bummer. And, you know, it's really a bummer when you see cops scrap and they can't.

   2. LTLuke Thomas7:49

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:49

      And you're like, "How did you get this far?" Like, you're a actual police officer and you never learned how to... You don't even know how to-

   4. LTLuke Thomas7:55

      No, I-

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:55

      ... distribute your weight on the ground?

   6. LTLuke Thomas7:57

      I understand that, quite frankly. I was in, I was, like I told you, I did six years in the Marine Corps. The, uh, the Marine Corps has this reputation, somewhat deserve it, about their being super macho and shit relative to the other forces. And some of that is true, and some of that is deserved. I'd never seen... (laughs) I remember the first time... You ever been to, uh, the Mojave Desert at all?

   7. JRJoe Rogan8:16

      Yeah.

   8. LTLuke Thomas8:16

      So, there's the, the Twentynine Palms is out there.

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:18

      Mm-hmm.

   10. LTLuke Thomas8:18

       I'll never forget the first time I went to Twentynine Palms, 'cause there is, there is fuck all to do at Twentynine Palms. And so, the Marine Corps wisely just invests in weight rooms. I had, it was the nicest gym I'd ever been in in my life, and it was nothing but Hoss Marine after the... I mean, they're all on steroids. They had to be. I don't think, I don't think any commanding officer gave a fuck, and they were all huge. And they were, they live this gung-ho life, and blah, blah, blah, but then when it came time for hand-to-hand combatives training, McMap is shit. It's not good. It's better than nothing, but if you, unless you do straight-up army combatives, like, which is a, best thing maybe the Army's ever done for themselves in terms of, um, that kind of, uh, uh, uh, aim, p- policy aim, you get nothing. And every cop I know who was ever trained, there's a bunch of guys who, uh, um, I know from various different martial arts schools, they took the initiative to go train outside of what law enforcement was providing them, but like, they... This is what I mean. They don't get any of this shit.

   11. JRJoe Rogan9:16

       Yeah.

   12. LTLuke Thomas9:16

       And not only... If they do, it's like, you know, "Here's how to get out of a... someone's choking you in this very..." It's almost like a women's self-defense class, is really the extent to which they're, they learn.

   13. JRJoe Rogan9:25

       That's ridiculous.

   14. LTLuke Thomas9:26

       Yeah, it's not much.

   15. JRJoe Rogan9:27

       It should be mandatory. And not only should it be mandatory, it should be, like, a part of the curriculum. You know, Jocko Willink said that they should spend 20% of their time training, and I think he's right. I think, you know-

   16. LTLuke Thomas9:36

       Who's got the money for that, though?

   17. JRJoe Rogan9:37

       That's a g- good question. I mean, th- real, r- real consideration should be put to, why don't we have the money for that?

   18. LTLuke Thomas9:45

       Also, I would challenge that a little bit, if I may. Which is, I saw in the wake of the George Floyd thing, there was a lot of people like, "How do we..." Mo- most people were basically horrified by that. But the question is, what do you do about it? And so I saw some op-eds. I think MMA Junkie published one from this guy. I'm sure he was well-intentioned, but he was like... And I think Rener Gracie had some similar ideas, because he really believes in the transformative power of jujitsu, right?

   19. JRJoe Rogan10:06

       Yeah.

   20. LTLuke Thomas10:06

       Um, I do-

   21. JRJoe Rogan10:07

       As do I.

   22. LTLuke Thomas10:07

       I do to an extent. I mean, here's what I would say. It, it, it was... It's the same thing, uh, going through the military. Like, if you don't, if you don't succumb to the process, it will not redevelop your character.

   23. JRJoe Rogan10:20

       Right.

   24. LTLuke Thomas10:20

       You have to willingly give yourself to that. Just giving cops jujitsu training does not force that transformation. So, while I think it would help in certain situations, it could exacerbate existing problems with whatever cop has deranged or bad training about the world.

   25. JRJoe Rogan10:37

       Mm-hmm.

   26. LTLuke Thomas10:37

       And now, oh wait, now you know kimuras and you're a fucking asshole?

   27. JRJoe Rogan10:41

       Right.

   28. LTLuke Thomas10:41

       That's a problem.

   29. JRJoe Rogan10:42

       That is a problem. Yeah, you're right in that respect. If you do get an asshole and you just teach him a few moves, you could create a worse asshole. Um, but I would hope... But the problem is, like, in normal jujitsu, the way jujitsu transforms your life, it's not transforming your life in the stress of you being a police officer, and people, we're... And all the things that we talked about, PTSD-

   30. LTLuke Thomas11:03

       Mm-hmm.
5. 12:11 – 15:08

   Why people pick fights: door work stories and the 'average man' delusion

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:11

      When I was 19, I worked as a security guard at a concert place called Great Woods in Mansfield, Massachusetts. And, uh, it was, uh, a short amount of time. I wasn't there for but a few months over the summer. But during that time, I recognized a really clear us-versus-them mentality between the police f- or the, the, the security force, rather, and the concertgoers. And it happened pretty quickly. It happened really quickly where, you know, I saw security guys beat the shit out of... The first day on the job, I saw this guy get beaten up with a walkie-talkie 'cause he stole a golf cart. Like, it was... I was-

   2. LTLuke Thomas12:45

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan12:45

      ... a 19-year-old fresh-faced kid, like, "What is going on here?"

   4. LTLuke Thomas12:49

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:49

      And this guy, his name is Alley Cat, tackles this kid who had stolen one of their golf carts and he's hitting him in the face with a walkie-talkie. And I'm like, "What kind of job did I fucking sign up for?"

   6. LTLuke Thomas12:58

      (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan12:58

      I mean, and it was only like, you know, 15 bucks an hour or something.

   8. LTLuke Thomas13:01

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan13:01

      Or I would, I would imagine. I don't really remember, but I remember thinking real early on, like, "This is a, this is very strange how I've, like, very quickly developed this us-versus-them mentality."

   10. LTLuke Thomas13:13

       I've also noticed, um, you know, back when I was 24, I was working doors at various bars in New York City to make some money to make ends meet 'cause New York City is crazy expensive. And, uh, people... And I was lifting weights like crazy. I was huge, you know, the whole bit. And I'll never forget, people would always tell me, they're like, "Oh, I bet people don't wanna mess with you." And I was like, "It is totally the opposite."

   11. JRJoe Rogan13:34

       Drunks, right?

   12. LTLuke Thomas13:35

       Right.

   13. JRJoe Rogan13:35

       Yeah.

   14. LTLuke Thomas13:35

       If you got a badge on, they wanna fuck with you. So a, a bunch don't, but there's gonna be a certain kind of person-

   15. JRJoe Rogan13:41

       Mm-hmm.

   16. LTLuke Thomas13:41

       Oh, he's big and tall and muscly or whoever. A- anybody, you know, you got sleeves with tattoos, that is exactly who they target. There's a certain kinda guy who's like, "You know what? I'd like to see what happen if I tried to, to ride that ride." You know?

   17. JRJoe Rogan13:53

       Yeah. Chuck Liddell said that like when he was in his prime, guys would fuck with him.

   18. LTLuke Thomas13:57

       Abs- I, I... Not, not the least bit surprised. You're like, "Dude, are you... You have a fucking death wish?"

   19. JRJoe Rogan14:01

       (laughs)

   20. LTLuke Thomas14:02

       Like, "What is, what is wrong with you?" They have a death wish.

   21. JRJoe Rogan14:04

       Well, some people are just really stupid.

   22. LTLuke Thomas14:06

       We h- have, have you ever seen that Onion article? It's like, "Average m-" Study, "Average man overestimates fighting ability by 4,000%."

   23. JRJoe Rogan14:13

       (laughs)

   24. LTLuke Thomas14:14

       You ever seen that?

   25. JRJoe Rogan14:15

       No.

   26. LTLuke Thomas14:15

       Most people think they know... "Yeah, look, if push came to shove, I know a little something-something."

   27. JRJoe Rogan14:19

       Yeah.

   28. LTLuke Thomas14:20

       You don't know fuck all.

   29. JRJoe Rogan14:21

       You don't know fuck all. (laughs) The, the humiliation of seeing those guys on the mat is really adorable. When you see a person who thinks they're fairly tough just get manhandled and rag-dolled.

   30. LTLuke Thomas14:32

       Yeah. That, that's the tragedy of modern MMA because there was a time where it was like, "Is jujitsu really all that good?" And they'd make videos of some guy coming in being like, "I'm gonna fuck all these black belts up."
6. 15:08 – 23:19

   Martial arts evolution and Joe’s UFC origin story (Vitor 'Victor' era)

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:08

      But it's kind of crazy when you think about the history of martial arts, that martial arts were around for... Since the dawn of time, people have been trying to figure out better ways to fuck people up. Since they, they figured out language and figured out how to teach skills, they've been working on techniques.

   2. LTLuke Thomas15:22

      Right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:22

      And then not until 1993 did we really know what worked.

   4. LTLuke Thomas15:26

      You have a quote... I, I have an old DVD back when those really mattered. I bought it in, I wanna say 2004. So this must have been one of the early editions of, like, Ultimate Knockouts. You know, I think Phil Baroni fucking up Dave Benet was on the cover or something like that. And you had a quote and it was, um... Maybe it was, like, 2003. I think that's what it was. So I forget wh- maybe it was, like, one of the Miami shows, one of the early... Whatever it was-

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:49

      Hmm.

   6. LTLuke Thomas15:49

      ... you had a quote and it was, "Martial arts has evolved more in the last 20 years than it has in the last 2,000."

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:55

      Yeah.

   8. LTLuke Thomas15:55

      Uh, with re- with the exception of weaponry, that is 1,000% true.

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:00

      Yeah, 1,000% true.

   10. LTLuke Thomas16:00

       A million percent true.

   11. JRJoe Rogan16:02

       In weaponry, really. Like, s- guns. This is... You wanna have a weapon, guns and knives. You know, knife's been around forever. Swords, I guess. They used to be-

   12. LTLuke Thomas16:10

       Well, I just-

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:11

       ... better at swords.

   14. LTLuke Thomas16:11

       ... I don't know enough about hand-to-hand combat with weapons-

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:14

       Mm-hmm.

   16. LTLuke Thomas16:14

       ... to say one way or the other, but I just know as it relates to martial arts, the, uh, the fast forwarding that happened from '93 on b- relative to before it-

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:22

       Mm-hmm.

   18. LTLuke Thomas16:22

       ... it was this sort of slow process and then it hit overdrive.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:26

       You know what's really f- very satisfying to me is that when I first got involved in the UFC in 1997, it was when I was on Newsradio. And the people on Newsradio literally look at me like I was doing porn.

   20. LTLuke Thomas16:38

       (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:38

       They were like, "What are you doing?"

   22. LTLuke Thomas16:40

       (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:40

       Like, "Why are you doing this?" Like, "You're gonna ruin your career."

   24. LTLuke Thomas16:43

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:43

       And I was like, "Oh, uh, I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. I like it." You know?

   26. LTLuke Thomas16:47

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:47

       My, my whole life I've been a martial artist. Now finally someone did the thing that I've always asked them to do.

   28. LTLuke Thomas16:52

       Right.

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:53

       My whole life I was like, "I wanna know what would happen if you got a judo guy with a boxer, if you got a this with a that." And then the UFC is like, "Let's, let's find out."

   30. LTLuke Thomas17:01

       Right.
7. 23:19 – 31:37

   Deontay Wilder’s excuses vs. Tyson Fury’s adjustments and elite feinting

   1. JRJoe Rogan23:19

      And I'm like... Yeah, that guy. Yeah. I'm not sure... Have you seen... That's a bummer, man. The Deontay Wilder stuff that's going on right now.

   2. LTLuke Thomas23:25

      (sighs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan23:25

      He's, he's released-... three different excuses. The first one was the weight vest, the, the thing that he was wearing, that crazy costume, weighed 40 pounds. Apparently, it wore his legs out. The next one was that, th- there was a bunch of people saying that Tyson Fury's gloves, um, weren't attached correctly, so the gloves were extended. So, he was hitting him with the knuckles.

   4. LTLuke Thomas23:47

      Right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan23:47

      And the g- the, the glove part was not really attached. It was like, so he was catching him, like, with the part that's supposed to be over the wrist. Not correct, not true, and easily provable. The next one, he said, "Egg weights." He said he had egg weights in his hand. This is recent, like a couple days ago. Then yesterday, there was an article that said that he believes that he was, his water was poisoned.

   6. LTLuke Thomas24:07

      By his own trainer.

   7. JRJoe Rogan24:08

      And Mark Breland-

   8. LTLuke Thomas24:09

      Right.

   9. JRJoe Rogan24:09

      ... was a part of that.

   10. LTLuke Thomas24:10

       Understand, for folks who may not know who Mark Breland is, former, uh, uh, I think Olympic gold medalist.

   11. JRJoe Rogan24:14

       Yes.

   12. LTLuke Thomas24:14

       World champion.

   13. JRJoe Rogan24:15

       Yes.

   14. LTLuke Thomas24:15

       Uh, across two different weight divisions if I'm not mistaken. He is the voice of sanity, or was, till he was dismissed in that corner. That was the guy that threw the towel for him, who... How, I mean, Breland should be thanked-

   15. JRJoe Rogan24:27

       Yes.

   16. LTLuke Thomas24:27

       ... by Wilder and his camp until the end of time. His other trainer, um, uh, oh, I forget his last name. Starts with a D. He was out there at the post-fight press conference being like, "You know, I don't know if I would've thrown that towel." It's like, you fucking yes-man.

   17. JRJoe Rogan24:39

       Oh, my God.

   18. LTLuke Thomas24:39

       Are you kidding me?

   19. JRJoe Rogan24:40

       Yeah.

   20. LTLuke Thomas24:41

       Breland took it upon himself to, uh, I don't know, save the guy's life, but certainly make the right call for halting the contest. He was thanked by being dismissed and now essentially dragged through the mud with utterly, what I'm, I'm guessing, are utterly baseless accusations about poisoning his own fighter.

   21. JRJoe Rogan24:58

       Mm-hmm.

   22. LTLuke Thomas24:58

       And I mean, maybe Tyson Fury's fucking awesome. That seems like the simplest explanation-

   23. JRJoe Rogan25:02

       Well-

   24. LTLuke Thomas25:03

       ... for all of this.

   25. JRJoe Rogan25:03

       ... Tyson Fury changed his strategy (clears throat) . And also, you have to realize that Tyson Fury, in the first fight, was coming off of a multiple-year battle with depression. A mental illness, drinking, got suicidal thoughts. He talked on my podcast about driving his Ferrari and almost slamming into a bridge. He's like, "I was, I was, I f- pedal to the metal, and I was thinking about slamming into this bridge."

   26. LTLuke Thomas25:23

       Hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan25:24

       And then he changed his mind. And, and he just slowly worked his way into shape, got healthy again, got his mind right again, and pulled it back around. But when he fought Deontay Wilder the first time, his father didn't want him to take the fight. He's like, "You're not healthy enough yet. You're not ready yet." And he did his best, he fought well, but it was a draw. By the time they fought the second time, he was in tip-top condition.

   28. LTLuke Thomas25:47

       Right.

   29. JRJoe Rogan25:47

       He had gone through the camp for the first fight. His body was completely recovered from all the abusive alcohol and cocaine and all the shit that he was doing. And then he took on, um, the Kronk trainer, Sugar Hill. And then his whole strategy changed. He's like, "The guy does not fight well off the heel, off the back foot. Let's, let's move him back." And Tyson Fury is fucking enormous.

   30. LTLuke Thomas26:09

       (laughs)
8. 31:37 – 40:53

   Punchers, knockouts, and what power really is (Munguia, Davis, Shavers)

   1. LTLuke Thomas31:37

      Do you follow boxing currently at all?

   2. JRJoe Rogan31:38

      Yes, yes, I do.

   3. LTLuke Thomas31:39

      So, how about this kid, Jaime Munguia? You seen him?

   4. JRJoe Rogan31:42

      I have not seen him.

   5. LTLuke Thomas31:42

      He fought last Friday night. Holy mother of God. You look at him. He obviously is an athlete, right? He's in good shape. You would look at him and think, "Yeah," you know, I'm not gonna say average, but there's nothing that stands out about him. At least Wilder is huge.

   6. JRJoe Rogan31:57

      Right.

   7. LTLuke Thomas31:57

      He's bricked up.

   8. JRJoe Rogan31:58

      Makes sense.

   9. LTLuke Thomas31:58

      Munguia is in, is in, is in fight shape, but he's not bricked up. And this fucking guy, I mean, he's rearranging... I mean, he is keeping dentists in business.

   10. JRJoe Rogan32:06

       Was he on Showtime?

   11. LTLuke Thomas32:07

       He was on DAZN.

   12. JRJoe Rogan32:08

       DAZN.

   13. LTLuke Thomas32:08

       He was on DAZN.

   14. JRJoe Rogan32:09

       And what was the undercard of which fight?

   15. LTLuke Thomas32:11

       Oh, God. I don't, I don't, I don't remember. I only tuned in 'cause I was like, "I have an alert for Jaime Munguia whenever he fights."

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:16

       Oh, really?

   17. LTLuke Thomas32:16

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan32:17

       He's that good?

   19. LTLuke Thomas32:17

       Yeah. Uh, there's Munguia, the guy on the left. This fuck... Look at him. Does he look like a power puncher to you?

   20. JRJoe Rogan32:22

       Wow, super normal.

   21. LTLuke Thomas32:23

       He is arguably the biggest power puncher in boxing.

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:26

       What?

   23. LTLuke Thomas32:26

       For, by, by weight. Arguably.

   24. JRJoe Rogan32:27

       Really?

   25. LTLuke Thomas32:27

       Arguably, yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan32:28

       That's crazy.

   27. LTLuke Thomas32:29

       That fucking guy can crack, and I think he rearranges... Oh, so you remember the, the lip split that-

   28. JRJoe Rogan32:34

       Mm-hmm.

   29. LTLuke Thomas32:34

       ... Overeem had when he fought-

   30. JRJoe Rogan32:35

       Yeah.
9. 40:53 – 1:03:35

   Khabib’s Gaethje finish, GOAT debates, and Jon Jones’ chaotic genius

   1. LTLuke Thomas40:53

      S- serious question about this, 'cause I went through it a couple times.

   2. JRJoe Rogan40:55

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LTLuke Thomas40:55

      So from the moment he got kicked-

   4. JRJoe Rogan40:57

      Mm-hmm.

   5. LTLuke Thomas40:58

      ... and he initiates the take-down, so it was a kick, uh... He tried the first round, he did it off a head inside single, didn't work. Second round, he tried it off a double from the outside leg kick. First round was an inside leg kick, hence the, hence the inside single. Didn't work, so then he goes to the double. It's 22 seconds from that till the finish.

   6. JRJoe Rogan41:13

      Mm-hmm.

   7. LTLuke Thomas41:14

      So 22 seconds were apart, 22 seconds later, you're unconscious. I mean-... so, this is my question to you. Is that the best back take you've ever seen in MMA? Because what he does is, when Gaethje is sprawling in this contest, he's not just sprawling. He is sprawling and turning so he doesn't get pushed into the fence. He was very diligent about that in the Alvarez and the Gaethje fights. You can go back and you can watch it. So in this fight when, you, you see the level change that Khabib hits, you see automatically Gaethje turn-

   8. JRJoe Rogan41:40

      Mm-hmm.

   9. LTLuke Thomas41:40

      ... because he doesn't want to get turned that direction. But what Kha- Khabib does is he actually scoots under him, pulls him up, and then with his head, posts him over, gets the hands to plant. Well, once the hands are planted, the double is over. He doesn't care about it anymore. Now, he just wants the tight waist. And from the tight waist, he's holding... Y- y- his elbows aren't flared.

   10. JRJoe Rogan41:57

       Mm-hmm.

   11. LTLuke Thomas41:58

       They're tight here, right? Like he's T-Rexing inside. At that point, you have created, if you're Justin Gaethje, putting your hands, you've created a stable structure for this guy to now mount. Plus, if you wanna escape to the fence to like stand, he can control the, uh, ascent. So he goes, double, turns, pushes his hands to the mat, forces Gaethje down. And then with his, uh, his, uh, gable grip, then keeps it there and then replaces it with the hooks, and then turns into a he- uh, turns into a fake, not a real, Joe Rogan, a fake, uh, head and arm triangle attempt just so Gaethje gets his elbows away from his body. Then he chair sits to, uh, occupy the space, then throws a leg over, and then sits back and takes mercy upon him. As we learn later from Daniel Cormier, rather than arm bar him from his moms, "I'm just going to triangle you because that's the merciful..." This guy is out here taking fucking pity-

   12. JRJoe Rogan42:50

       (laughs)

   13. LTLuke Thomas42:50

       ... on his opponents. And he's doing back takes like that. He is... Jon Jones, to me, is the most accomplished fighter we've ever seen. Like the, the, the things accumulate over time. No one is as flawless as Khabib Nurmagomedov. Not even close.

   14. JRJoe Rogan43:04

       I think that is the argument, right? Like who is the GOAT? I think if you look at Jon Jones's early career, right? Jon Jones wins the title in 2011, and from then on has fought more fights as championship fights than he has other fights. So he's, uh, the most accomplished for sure. Wins the title, earliest, youngest guy to ever win the title in the UFC. Beats Mauricio Shogun Rua, who's a legend, and then the way he dominates all these other fighters. Up until you get to Alexander Gustafsson, you could make the argument that he had a similar career. You could make the argument, like if you look at what he did, Jon didn't lose any rounds. Jon was smashing people. You look what he did to Rashad Evans. Look at what he did to Rampage Jackson. Look at what he did to Lyoto Machida. Look what he did to everybody. All... Everybody he fought up until the Gustafsson fight. But the Gustafsson fight, then you have to say well, how much slack do you give him for admittedly not training? Because it was a really close fight. He pulls it out in the championship round even though he's out of shape, even though... You talk to Greg Jackson, he didn't train for that fight. Didn't fucking train. Like barely worked out but definitely didn't go through a training camp. Still managed to beat one of the best guys in the division after getting taken down for the first time in his career. Then goes on a tear, right? Beats... Y- y- look at the way he beat Daniel Cormier in the first fight. Took him down. Like who the fuck takes-

   15. LTLuke Thomas44:23

       (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan44:23

       ... Daniel Cormier down, right?

   17. LTLuke Thomas44:24

       Right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan44:24

       And then you look at him in the second fight. Even though it was ruled a no contest, we know what the fuck happened. He head kicked him and stopped him, you know? It was f- s- spectacular. You look at what Jon has done, then you have to take into account the things that didn't go that well. And we haven't seen those from Khabib yet. You have to take into account the fight like Thiago Santos, right? That fight goes to a, a split decision. You're like, "Whoa." Dominick Reyes, Dominick Reyes, thought he won the fight.

   19. LTLuke Thomas44:49

       Right.

   20. JRJoe Rogan44:50

       Real close.

   21. LTLuke Thomas44:51

       I did too.

   22. JRJoe Rogan44:51

       Real close fight. So those fights haven't happened with Khabib yet and we don't know if they ever could. We don't know, right? Like right now, what you see flawless victory after flawless victory. You can maybe make the argument that Khabib lost two rounds his entire career. Maybe the second round against Justin or, uh-

   23. LTLuke Thomas45:09

       First round against Justin you could argue.

   24. JRJoe Rogan45:10

       ... first round rather. Maybe first round rather against Justin and maybe the third round with Conor.

   25. LTLuke Thomas45:14

       That's right.

   26. JRJoe Rogan45:14

       That's it.

   27. LTLuke Thomas45:15

       Right.

   28. JRJoe Rogan45:15

       And either one of those didn't get cut, didn't get dropped, didn't get hurt.

   29. LTLuke Thomas45:18

       Right. To never get cut and to never get dropped, I don't think folks understand what that means.

   30. JRJoe Rogan45:21

       Crazy.

Episode duration: 3:30:54