JRE MMA Show #98 with Luke Thomas

Narrator 0:02 (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Hello, Luke.

Luke Thomas 0:13 Hi, Joe.

Joe Rogan 0:13 We did it.

Luke Thomas 0:14 We made it.

Joe Rogan 0:15 We finally made it happen.

Luke Thomas 0:15 I wasn't sure it was gonna happen.

Joe Rogan 0:17 Yeah, well, uh, kudos to you for taking the chance to come here during the pandemic.

Luke Thomas 0:22 I know. The all, uh, very oppressive pandemic. Well, we were supposed to do it in March.

Joe Rogan 0:26 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 0:26 And then, the world turned upside-down.

Joe Rogan 0:28 Literally.

Luke Thomas 0:29 Uh, (laughs) basically. But we figured out a way.

Joe Rogan 0:31 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 0:31 Here we are.

Joe Rogan 0:31 We're here. Yeah. It's, um ... Is it -- W- you said you did some traveling. What'd you do traveling for before this?

Luke Thomas 0:36 So, I went to the Charlo Brothers double-header-

Joe Rogan 0:38 Oh, okay.

Luke Thomas 0:38 ... in Mohegan Sun, uh, wh- which was interesting, 'cause I got there early in the week and the casino was empty. Yeah, that bitch was slamming by Saturday night. I was not -- I had not been in crowds since March, right? So that was a little bit weird. But, uh ...

Joe Rogan 0:50 So, the casino's packed?

Luke Thomas 0:52 It was packed. Yeah. Not like, not like, to the rafters, but crowded.

Narrator 0:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 0:57 Do they have rules, like with masks, or-

Luke Thomas 0:59 Well, it's, it's Native American territory; they make their rules. So, yes.

Joe Rogan 1:01 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 1:01 I mean, they do have the normal protocol, like, there's, uh, hand sanitizing stations everywhere.

Joe Rogan 1:06 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 1:06 You have to wear a mask. But if you're at the table and you're drinking, they just pull the mask right down.

Joe Rogan 1:11 (exhales)

Luke Thomas 1:11 Yeah, and like ... And even if it wasn't that, it's like, can you imagine how fucking dirty those poker chips are?

Joe Rogan 1:15 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 1:15 It's like the Excalibur. You ever seen chips at the Excalibur? Holy shit. Um, but anyway, so I was just ... You know, I minded my business 'cause it was actually in the Sun, the Mohegan Sun arena.

Joe Rogan 1:24 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 1:24 So, we would just, like, beeline to the, uh, to the place there. And then, last week I went back to Jersey City, which is where the studios are for my Showtime gig, so ...

Joe Rogan 1:34 So, that, that is interesting that if it's on Native American ground, they can kinda do whatever they want.

Luke Thomas 1:39 Pretty much. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:40 Which is why the casino's there in the first place.

Luke Thomas 1:42 Right. And they ... And again, I would say, you know what? Most people were, they were pretty good about compliance. I did not feel like ... Like, honestly, I thought it w- people were more compliant than at w- like, the airport yesterday. All these fucking weak-constituted people that pull the mask below their nose.

Joe Rogan 1:58 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 1:58 I wanna fucking hit all of them with a car antenna. I hate every single one of 'em. It's not ... I just wanna look at 'em, it's like, it's not a hardship. Just put on the fucking mask.

Joe Rogan 2:07 Not only that, if you have it below your nose, you're not doing anything.

Luke Thomas 2:11 I know. I was like, "Just take it off. Just take it off."

Joe Rogan 2:12 Like, yeah. I'd feel better if you had it off.

Luke Thomas 2:15 Right.

Joe Rogan 2:15 'Cause at least you're, like, wet-

Luke Thomas 2:16 It's an ho- You're an honest broker of this exchange.

Joe Rogan 2:19 Yeah (laughs) .

Luke Thomas 2:19 You know what I mean? But, so it, it was fine. You know, they tested us a bunch of times when we were there.

Joe Rogan 2:23 Have you seen the new things? Like, the, these new hazmat suits that they're selling? Like, it's literally, like ... Go to John Joseph, uh, John Joseph Chromag.

Luke Thomas 2:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:32 Go to his, uh, Instagram page. Do you know John Joseph from Chromags?

Luke Thomas 2:36 I do not. You'll have to forgive me.

Joe Rogan 2:37 Uh, he was, uh, he's the lead singer of the Chromags, but he's also a triathlete-

Luke Thomas 2:40 Okay.

Joe Rogan 2:40 ... and, you know. He is a firm believer in strengthening your own immune system, and-

Luke Thomas 2:44 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:44 ... he, uh-

Luke Thomas 2:45 There's something to be said for that.

Joe Rogan 2:46 Look at this.

Narrator 2:47 I bet you anything after this, I'm like, "Holy shit."

Joe Rogan 2:47 Look at this.

Luke Thomas 2:48 Holy Mother of Jesus.

Joe Rogan 2:51 (laughs) We're s- we're in space. I mean, this is, this is the future, and it apparently has some fog-proof, uh, n- attachment some way, somehow or another, and you're, you put your hand ... If you have to scratch your face, there's little, uh, zips on the side-

Luke Thomas 3:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:06 ... that you put your hand through.

Luke Thomas 3:07 You know, I, I appreciate the spirit of innovation here.

Joe Rogan 3:10 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 3:10 But this is a Black, uh, Mirror episode, right?

Joe Rogan 3:13 It is. It is. It is. Well, you know, you talk ... H- how many people do you know that have gotten it?

Luke Thomas 3:18 A bunch.

Joe Rogan 3:19 Yeah, me too. Jamie's the, the latest. Jamie, uh ... But they're saying, it's which inter- which is, which is very interesting, they're saying it really depends upon what kinda dose you're getting.

Luke Thomas 3:29 Right.

Joe Rogan 3:30 You obviously got a very mild dose and you had a very mild case of it. And-

Luke Thomas 3:33 That's why the masks are important, right? Because-

Joe Rogan 3:34 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 3:35 ... even if you get it, if someone has it op- you know, they're not wearing it properly, you're just not al- you're not getting sprayed-

Joe Rogan 3:40 Right.

Luke Thomas 3:40 ... with this huge amount.

Joe Rogan 3:41 Especially if someone sneezes on you or something, or yell- ... That's the thing with drunks. Like, bars are super-spreader events, right?

Luke Thomas 3:47 Right.

Joe Rogan 3:47 Because everyone's like, drunk talk.

Luke Thomas 3:49 That's what I miss.

Joe Rogan 3:50 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 3:50 I miss the bars a little bit. I miss the movie theater.

Joe Rogan 3:52 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 3:52 And I miss the bar. And I'm not, like, you know, 'til 4:00 AM. I got a kid. But, you know, just saddling up a little bit, having a couple cocktails, and-

Joe Rogan 3:59 Yes.

Luke Thomas 3:59 ... I miss that a little bit, to be honest with you.

Joe Rogan 4:01 I do- well, me too. I just got through sober October. I've had a-

Luke Thomas 4:04 Hey, it's November 2nd.

Joe Rogan 4:05 ... whole entire month. Yeah. You wanna drink? I'll drink.

Luke Thomas 4:07 Uh.

Joe Rogan 4:07 I don't mind.

Luke Thomas 4:07 I was gonna lift after this, but I'll have a drink if you have one.

Joe Rogan 4:10 You can, you can have a couple of drinks and still lift.

Luke Thomas 4:11 That's ... Listen.

Joe Rogan 4:12 Come on, bro.

Luke Thomas 4:12 I'm 40. I can't have a couple of drinks and think right, much less lift, uh, weights.

Narrator 4:16 You're kidding.

Luke Thomas 4:16 But I'll try, I'll try. Uh, but you know what? You know, it never gets talked about, it sh- I deserves to be mentioned here.

Joe Rogan 4:20 Send in some whiskey.

Luke Thomas 4:22 I know a guy who was a, uh, an ER doctor in New York in ... He's still there now, obviously, but through March. This doesn't get talked about, but it was worth mentioning. There is ... We, uh ... So I, I knew a bunch of people that went to Iraq, 'cause I was in the Marine Corps, but I got out right before my unit sent, so I was very, very lucky in that regard. But a bunch of them came back super fucked up, you know. They're all fine now, but super fucked up. These doctors who were in New York in March, they all have PTSD.

Joe Rogan 4:47 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 4:48 Watching day after day ... Remember, there was a, there was times when New York was losing 800 people a day.

Joe Rogan 4:52 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 4:53 And he was telling me, like, you know, you hold up enough phones to someone who's dying, and so their kids are crying on the other end of FaceTime, and you do that day after day after day. He started smoking-

Joe Rogan 5:02 Oh.

Luke Thomas 5:02 ... like, the whole thing. Uh, we don't talk enough about that. I don't think it's bad enough now. And he was even saying, he's like, "If you're 25, you're fine." But like, all of these at-risk folks just coming in and collapsing-

Joe Rogan 5:13 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 5:13 ... one after the other, it fucked him up, big time.

Joe Rogan 5:16 I can only imagine. You know, this is the, uh, also falls in line with the, the conversation that I've been having a lot about cops. Like ...

Luke Thomas 5:23 Oh, God.

Joe Rogan 5:24 It doesn't ... People don't understand what it is to be a cop. Like, you, all you see is these terrible videos like George Floyd.

Luke Thomas 5:31 Right.

Joe Rogan 5:31 You know? Just imagine being a person who, every day, you're seeing suicide, murder, rape, car accidents. You, you're constantly worried that the next car you pull over is gonna be the guy that shoots you in the head.

Luke Thomas 5:42 Right. And you've had improper training, probably.

Joe Rogan 5:44 Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. For sure.

Luke Thomas 5:45 You're asked, you're asked to do responsibilities-

Joe Rogan 5:46 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 5:46 ... you couldn't possibly handle.

Joe Rogan 5:48 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 5:48 Uh, the policy failures of the world are just pushed onto you.

Joe Rogan 5:51 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 5:51 And, uh, you know, you pr- uh, you have to deal with the dregs of society. Like, certainly, obviously, the George Floyd murder is-

Joe Rogan 5:57 Horrific.

Luke Thomas 5:57 ... horrific in every way imaginable. But my stepfather, but ... My mom eventually got divorced, but I had a stepfather for a time, and he was a cop for 30 years in Washington DC. You know. I'm not saying he had the most enlightened ideas of the world, but when you spend a few months in the hospital 'cause they broke all your ribs-... and (laughs) you had to deal with, you know, a two-year-old with a gun, and, uh, you know, every other situation, it will warp you. It will affect your moral calculations, and if you have improper training and improper funding, it only exacerbates the problem. Like, we ask cops to do way too much shit, and, um, it results in a lot of problems.

Joe Rogan 6:31 And th- the job, th- like, now, good luck trying to find really intelligent people that could do other things. You know?

Luke Thomas 6:40 Right.

Joe Rogan 6:40 Right now, no one wants to be a cop, 'cause the cops are the bad guys.

Luke Thomas 6:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 6:43 Th- they're the enemies. And, y- you know, it's like, defunding the police is now, like, a mantra that the left likes to use.

Luke Thomas 6:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 6:50 Like, defund the police.

Luke Thomas 6:51 Which they... And by the way, I'm, I'm a member of the left, and so I, I-

Joe Rogan 6:53 As am I.

Luke Thomas 6:54 When I first heard it, I was like, I, I didn't know what it meant.

Joe Rogan 6:56 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 6:56 And they, they like to tell you that it means one thing. I don't think that it means one thing. It means a series of different things. To some, it means actually what they state-

Joe Rogan 7:04 This is ice. Nice.

Luke Thomas 7:04 ... which is, which is what they claim, which is utterly demolish it and start from scratch. For others... Thank you. For others, it means, uh, uh, not going to that nuclear option, but sort of, uh, rearranging funds to go to different, uh, policy or other kind of intervention projects.

Joe Rogan 7:20 You ice or no ice?

Luke Thomas 7:21 Um, it depends on how good the whiskey is there, Joe Rogan.

Joe Rogan 7:24 It's, uh, still Austin. I've not tried it because we bought it.

Luke Thomas 7:27 I'll try it, I'll try it neat.

Joe Rogan 7:29 All right, there you go. We tried it when I was, uh, doing the... Cheers, sir.

Luke Thomas 7:34 Salud.

Joe Rogan 7:35 Salud. Mm.

Luke Thomas 7:37 Ooh, it smells nice.

Joe Rogan 7:38 Ah. It's pretty damn good. Um-

Luke Thomas 7:41 That does not need ice. That's good.

Joe Rogan 7:43 Yeah. It's a bummer. And, you know, it's really a bummer when you see cops scrap and they can't.

Luke Thomas 7:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:49 And you're like, "How did you get this far?" Like, you're a actual police officer and you never learned how to... You don't even know how to-

Luke Thomas 7:55 No, I-

Joe Rogan 7:55 ... distribute your weight on the ground?

Luke Thomas 7:57 I understand that, quite frankly. I was in, I was, like I told you, I did six years in the Marine Corps. The, uh, the Marine Corps has this reputation, somewhat deserve it, about their being super macho and shit relative to the other forces. And some of that is true, and some of that is deserved. I'd never seen... (laughs) I remember the first time... You ever been to, uh, the Mojave Desert at all?

Joe Rogan 8:16 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 8:16 So, there's the, the Twentynine Palms is out there.

Joe Rogan 8:18 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 8:18 I'll never forget the first time I went to Twentynine Palms, 'cause there is, there is fuck all to do at Twentynine Palms. And so, the Marine Corps wisely just invests in weight rooms. I had, it was the nicest gym I'd ever been in in my life, and it was nothing but Hoss Marine after the... I mean, they're all on steroids. They had to be. I don't think, I don't think any commanding officer gave a fuck, and they were all huge. And they were, they live this gung-ho life, and blah, blah, blah, but then when it came time for hand-to-hand combatives training, McMap is shit. It's not good. It's better than nothing, but if you, unless you do straight-up army combatives, like, which is a, best thing maybe the Army's ever done for themselves in terms of, um, that kind of, uh, uh, uh, aim, p- policy aim, you get nothing. And every cop I know who was ever trained, there's a bunch of guys who, uh, um, I know from various different martial arts schools, they took the initiative to go train outside of what law enforcement was providing them, but like, they... This is what I mean. They don't get any of this shit.

Joe Rogan 9:16 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 9:16 And not only... If they do, it's like, you know, "Here's how to get out of a... someone's choking you in this very..." It's almost like a women's self-defense class, is really the extent to which they're, they learn.

Joe Rogan 9:25 That's ridiculous.

Luke Thomas 9:26 Yeah, it's not much.

Joe Rogan 9:27 It should be mandatory. And not only should it be mandatory, it should be, like, a part of the curriculum. You know, Jocko Willink said that they should spend 20% of their time training, and I think he's right. I think, you know-

Luke Thomas 9:36 Who's got the money for that, though?

Joe Rogan 9:37 That's a g- good question. I mean, th- real, r- real consideration should be put to, why don't we have the money for that?

Luke Thomas 9:45 Also, I would challenge that a little bit, if I may. Which is, I saw in the wake of the George Floyd thing, there was a lot of people like, "How do we..." Mo- most people were basically horrified by that. But the question is, what do you do about it? And so I saw some op-eds. I think MMA Junkie published one from this guy. I'm sure he was well-intentioned, but he was like... And I think Rener Gracie had some similar ideas, because he really believes in the transformative power of jujitsu, right?

Joe Rogan 10:06 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 10:06 Um, I do-

Joe Rogan 10:07 As do I.

Luke Thomas 10:07 I do to an extent. I mean, here's what I would say. It, it, it was... It's the same thing, uh, going through the military. Like, if you don't, if you don't succumb to the process, it will not redevelop your character.

Joe Rogan 10:20 Right.

Luke Thomas 10:20 You have to willingly give yourself to that. Just giving cops jujitsu training does not force that transformation. So, while I think it would help in certain situations, it could exacerbate existing problems with whatever cop has deranged or bad training about the world.

Joe Rogan 10:37 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 10:37 And now, oh wait, now you know kimuras and you're a fucking asshole?

Joe Rogan 10:41 Right.

Luke Thomas 10:41 That's a problem.

Joe Rogan 10:42 That is a problem. Yeah, you're right in that respect. If you do get an asshole and you just teach him a few moves, you could create a worse asshole. Um, but I would hope... But the problem is, like, in normal jujitsu, the way jujitsu transforms your life, it's not transforming your life in the stress of you being a police officer, and people, we're... And all the things that we talked about, PTSD-

Luke Thomas 11:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:03 ... worrying about people shooting you-

Luke Thomas 11:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:04 ... dealing with all the horrific things you see every day. You're essentially, you're going through this struggle, and that struggle sort of steels you.

Luke Thomas 11:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:12 It makes you a better person.

Luke Thomas 11:13 Yes.

Joe Rogan 11:14 And then, uh, yeah. If you went through that struggle along with the chaos of the police academy, or, or, or of, uh, rather police, uh, duty, I would imagine best case scenario is it alleviates some stress. It helps you get past a lot of the bullshit that you, y- you would normally, it would normally eat at you. And it also allows you to relieve some tension, and...

Luke Thomas 11:38 Yeah, I just- I don't know that I would... For cost reasons, I don't know that I would mandate that kind of training. I think I would offer particular forms of incentives to get it to the right kind of folks.

Joe Rogan 11:45 I would mandate it just because you're gonna have situations where people have hand-to-hand experiences. Y- you should know how to distribute your weight.

Luke Thomas 11:53 Fair enough. But I, but I would say doing that e- by itself would not be sufficient. That, along with-

Joe Rogan 11:57 No.

Luke Thomas 11:57 ... other forms of reform, so that we're-

Joe Rogan 11:59 Yes.

Luke Thomas 11:59 ... asking police to do the things that police are supposed to do and not the things they're not supposed to do. I think in conjunction... It's never one solution, right?

Joe Rogan 12:06 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 12:06 Most problems in the world require a series of interventions.

Joe Rogan 12:09 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 12:09 Do those in conjunction, you're probably gonna get a better policing.

Joe Rogan 12:11 When I was 19, I worked as a security guard at a concert place called Great Woods in Mansfield, Massachusetts. And, uh, it was, uh, a short amount of time. I wasn't there for but a few months over the summer. But during that time, I recognized a really clear us-versus-them mentality between the police f- or the, the, the security force, rather, and the concertgoers. And it happened pretty quickly. It happened really quickly where, you know, I saw security guys beat the shit out of... The first day on the job, I saw this guy get beaten up with a walkie-talkie 'cause he stole a golf cart. Like, it was... I was-

Luke Thomas 12:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:45 ... a 19-year-old fresh-faced kid, like, "What is going on here?"

Luke Thomas 12:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:49 And this guy, his name is Alley Cat, tackles this kid who had stolen one of their golf carts and he's hitting him in the face with a walkie-talkie. And I'm like, "What kind of job did I fucking sign up for?"

Luke Thomas 12:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:58 I mean, and it was only like, you know, 15 bucks an hour or something.

Luke Thomas 13:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:01 Or I would, I would imagine. I don't really remember, but I remember thinking real early on, like, "This is a, this is very strange how I've, like, very quickly developed this us-versus-them mentality."

Luke Thomas 13:13 I've also noticed, um, you know, back when I was 24, I was working doors at various bars in New York City to make some money to make ends meet 'cause New York City is crazy expensive. And, uh, people... And I was lifting weights like crazy. I was huge, you know, the whole bit. And I'll never forget, people would always tell me, they're like, "Oh, I bet people don't wanna mess with you." And I was like, "It is totally the opposite."

Joe Rogan 13:34 Drunks, right?

Luke Thomas 13:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 13:35 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 13:35 If you got a badge on, they wanna fuck with you. So a, a bunch don't, but there's gonna be a certain kind of person-

Joe Rogan 13:41 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 13:41 Oh, he's big and tall and muscly or whoever. A- anybody, you know, you got sleeves with tattoos, that is exactly who they target. There's a certain kinda guy who's like, "You know what? I'd like to see what happen if I tried to, to ride that ride." You know?

Joe Rogan 13:53 Yeah. Chuck Liddell said that like when he was in his prime, guys would fuck with him.

Luke Thomas 13:57 Abs- I, I... Not, not the least bit surprised. You're like, "Dude, are you... You have a fucking death wish?"

Joe Rogan 14:01 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 14:02 Like, "What is, what is wrong with you?" They have a death wish.

Joe Rogan 14:04 Well, some people are just really stupid.

Luke Thomas 14:06 We h- have, have you ever seen that Onion article? It's like, "Average m-" Study, "Average man overestimates fighting ability by 4,000%."

Joe Rogan 14:13 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 14:14 You ever seen that?

Joe Rogan 14:15 No.

Luke Thomas 14:15 Most people think they know... "Yeah, look, if push came to shove, I know a little something-something."

Joe Rogan 14:19 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 14:20 You don't know fuck all.

Joe Rogan 14:21 You don't know fuck all. (laughs) The, the humiliation of seeing those guys on the mat is really adorable. When you see a person who thinks they're fairly tough just get manhandled and rag-dolled.

Luke Thomas 14:32 Yeah. That, that's the tragedy of modern MMA because there was a time where it was like, "Is jujitsu really all that good?" And they'd make videos of some guy coming in being like, "I'm gonna fuck all these black belts up."

Joe Rogan 14:42 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 14:42 And then he goes in there and they wear him out like a... They work him like a summer job.

Joe Rogan 14:46 Oh, for the-

Luke Thomas 14:47 You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 14:47 For the Gracies, it was like the greatest promotional scheme ever.

Luke Thomas 14:51 Amazing, isn't it?

Joe Rogan 14:52 Like, to have people come in and fight them.

Luke Thomas 14:54 Yeah. Come on, guys.

Joe Rogan 14:55 And they would be pretty gentle with those guys-

Luke Thomas 14:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:57 ... when you really think about it. I mean, they'd hit them a little bit, but mostly they just strangled them.

Luke Thomas 15:01 Yeah, basically.

Joe Rogan 15:02 You know? Yeah.

Luke Thomas 15:02 That's true. But we don't really see that anymore 'cause basically the word got out, like, "Eh."

Joe Rogan 15:07 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 15:07 "Maybe don't do that."

Joe Rogan 15:08 But it's kind of crazy when you think about the history of martial arts, that martial arts were around for... Since the dawn of time, people have been trying to figure out better ways to fuck people up. Since they, they figured out language and figured out how to teach skills, they've been working on techniques.

Luke Thomas 15:22 Right.

Joe Rogan 15:22 And then not until 1993 did we really know what worked.

Luke Thomas 15:26 You have a quote... I, I have an old DVD back when those really mattered. I bought it in, I wanna say 2004. So this must have been one of the early editions of, like, Ultimate Knockouts. You know, I think Phil Baroni fucking up Dave Benet was on the cover or something like that. And you had a quote and it was, um... Maybe it was, like, 2003. I think that's what it was. So I forget wh- maybe it was, like, one of the Miami shows, one of the early... Whatever it was-

Joe Rogan 15:49 Hmm.

Luke Thomas 15:49 ... you had a quote and it was, "Martial arts has evolved more in the last 20 years than it has in the last 2,000."

Joe Rogan 15:55 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 15:55 Uh, with re- with the exception of weaponry, that is 1,000% true.

Joe Rogan 16:00 Yeah, 1,000% true.

Luke Thomas 16:00 A million percent true.

Joe Rogan 16:02 In weaponry, really. Like, s- guns. This is... You wanna have a weapon, guns and knives. You know, knife's been around forever. Swords, I guess. They used to be-

Luke Thomas 16:10 Well, I just-

Joe Rogan 16:11 ... better at swords.

Luke Thomas 16:11 ... I don't know enough about hand-to-hand combat with weapons-

Joe Rogan 16:14 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 16:14 ... to say one way or the other, but I just know as it relates to martial arts, the, uh, the fast forwarding that happened from '93 on b- relative to before it-

Joe Rogan 16:22 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 16:22 ... it was this sort of slow process and then it hit overdrive.

Joe Rogan 16:26 You know what's really f- very satisfying to me is that when I first got involved in the UFC in 1997, it was when I was on Newsradio. And the people on Newsradio literally look at me like I was doing porn.

Luke Thomas 16:38 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:38 They were like, "What are you doing?"

Luke Thomas 16:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:40 Like, "Why are you doing this?" Like, "You're gonna ruin your career."

Luke Thomas 16:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:43 And I was like, "Oh, uh, I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. I like it." You know?

Luke Thomas 16:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:47 My, my whole life I've been a martial artist. Now finally someone did the thing that I've always asked them to do.

Luke Thomas 16:52 Right.

Joe Rogan 16:53 My whole life I was like, "I wanna know what would happen if you got a judo guy with a boxer, if you got a this with a that." And then the UFC is like, "Let's, let's find out."

Luke Thomas 17:01 Right.

Joe Rogan 17:01 And then I'm like, "Oh, my God. It's real. It's happening." To me it was like someone came along with, like, the Willy Wonka golden ticket. Like, it's... It was happening. It was real. And then when they offered me a job, I was like, "Fuck yeah, I'm going."

Luke Thomas 17:12 How did you get that job? How did they know you... Was your... Did your agent put in a word?

Joe Rogan 17:16 My manager was friends with Campbell McLaren.

Luke Thomas 17:19 Oh.

Joe Rogan 17:19 And Campbell McLaren...

Luke Thomas 17:20 Campbell is amazing.

Joe Rogan 17:21 He's a great guy.

Luke Thomas 17:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:22 And, uh, he's been on the podcast. And Campbell had, uh...... he had an opening and he said, "We need someone to do the post-fight interviews." And, uh, it was, you know, very little money, and you have to take little... (imitates plane) Little, those little Buddy Holly killing planes. You fucking- (laughs)

Luke Thomas 17:38 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:38 ... fly to Dothan, Alabama.

Luke Thomas 17:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:39 That was the first gig I did. The f- I was actually supposed to be in Albany, but then they kicked it out in New York. And then last minute-

Luke Thomas 17:45 Right.

Joe Rogan 17:45 ... they moved the Octagon to Dothan, Alabama.

Luke Thomas 17:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:47 And, uh, I was so happy. It was the debut of Vitor Belfort. Back when, we were calling him Victor. He was s- they were calling him Victor Gracie. And I was train- this is when I was training at Carlson Gracies, and they were calling Vi- Tor Victor. I mean, the early posters were V-I-K-T-O-R Gracie.

Luke Thomas 18:04 Like, wow, like he was Russian or something.

Joe Rogan 18:05 Um, I don't know why they call him Victor. Like, I d- I di- I don't understand why they did that. But he, they w- he was using the last name Gracie. And so, uh, he was fighting... Uh, he fight, fought John Hess over in, uh, Hawaii, and beat the shit outta John Hess. And, you know, I was training at his school and I thought he was like, impossible to stop. And he was 19. And when he was 19, his hands were a blur of light. He was so fast and so aggressive and so different than any other Brazilian jiu-jitsu guy. 'Cause we thought of Brazilian jiu-jitsu, jiu-jitsu guys, and he was a black belt, but we thought of black belts as being someone who just wants to get ahold of you, drag you to the ground, strangle you, or get you in an arm bar. And all of a sudden you got this guy who's wearing gloves, 'cause nobody else was wearing gloves, or very few people. Tank Abbott wore gloves. And just lighting people up with punches. And we're like, "Holy shit." And so, just by chance and fortune, I was training at his school and got to be on the card and doing the post-fight interviews the very first time that he fought in the UFC.

Luke Thomas 19:05 Wow.

Joe Rogan 19:05 Yeah. So I got to see him, um, he fought, uh, Trey Tellemann. Remember Trey? Had a-

Luke Thomas 19:10 Mister The Pack.

Joe Rogan 19:11 Yeah. He got in a car accident when he was a little kid.

Luke Thomas 19:12 Yeah. He could still strike his ass off that guy.

Joe Rogan 19:14 Fuck yeah, he could. He was tough as shit. And, he, he had no idea. No one knew what Victor was. V- Vitor.

Luke Thomas 19:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:20 I was... I'm going back in time.

Luke Thomas 19:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:22 But we, we called... Like, yeah, I think I may have even said Victor a couple of times during the broadcast, 'cause that's what we called him at the school. Everybody called him Victor.

Luke Thomas 19:31 Wow.

Joe Rogan 19:32 And then all of a sudden it was Vitor.

Luke Thomas 19:33 So you had to Anglicize his name a little bit, 'cause no one...

Joe Rogan 19:36 I don't know. I don't know what happened.

Luke Thomas 19:36 That's like they call, it's like they call Kamaru, Marty.

Joe Rogan 19:39 Well, how about Fedor? His real name is Fyodor.

Luke Thomas 19:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:41 Yeah. I mean, uh, uh, Pyotr Yan. Uh, y- like, no one-

Luke Thomas 19:45 It's like Peter.

Joe Rogan 19:46 Everybody called him Peter-

Luke Thomas 19:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:47 ... for a long time in the UFC.

Luke Thomas 19:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:48 It was a couple of years. And then f- finally they were like, "Oh, it's Pyotr." I'm like, "Well, I could say that. Why didn't you tell me that earlier?" Like, they just decided to anglicize it. But, um, Fedor's probably the biggest example of that. Right?

Luke Thomas 20:01 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:02 'Cause like, Fy-

Luke Thomas 20:02 Uh...

Joe Rogan 20:02 ... Fyodor's not a hard name to say.

Luke Thomas 20:04 I'm trying to think of who else is the biggest example. That's one of them.

Joe Rogan 20:07 But he's the great.

Luke Thomas 20:08 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:08 I mean, if you wanna think about heavyweight greats, you've got Stipe, Kane, and Fedor. Those are the three. You gotta choose betw- and to have the Mount Rushmore of heavyweights, you have to have Fedor.

Luke Thomas 20:18 Yeah. He wasn't some anonymous figure.

Joe Rogan 20:20 Right.

Luke Thomas 20:20 But, you get introduced to him the wrong way, it's hard to undo that.

Joe Rogan 20:23 Right.

Luke Thomas 20:23 Like, so the... I got introduced to him in private as Fedor.

Joe Rogan 20:25 Yeah, I'm still saying it.

Luke Thomas 20:26 And that will just stick forever.

Joe Rogan 20:28 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 20:28 Despite how it actually is supposed to be.

Joe Rogan 20:30 I know. It's... If I was friends with him, I'd probably say it right. But if you, uh, w- whatever the-

Luke Thomas 20:35 You ever met him?

Joe Rogan 20:35 No. I never have.

Luke Thomas 20:37 I had him in studio. Not the most thrilling interview ever.

Joe Rogan 20:40 Well-

Luke Thomas 20:40 He didn't give much.

Joe Rogan 20:41 He's not there to give. (laughs)

Luke Thomas 20:44 No. (laughs) I found that out later. I'm like, "I don't think he wanted to be here."

Joe Rogan 20:46 No. No. He's there to give ass kickings.

Luke Thomas 20:48 Uh-

Joe Rogan 20:49 And was really good at that.

Luke Thomas 20:49 ... but, you know, to your, to your point about like, uh, the origin of things. I remember like, I... Most people are like, "I've been watching UFC since UFC 1." Well, I didn't, because I just didn't know. I was a 12-year-old kid at the time. I, you know... You only know what someone shows you, for the most part.

Joe Rogan 21:03 Right.

Luke Thomas 21:03 This is pre-internet, so you definitely only know that shit. And I had, I had a family friend who was involved in a martial art that was South Korean called Tuokong.

Joe Rogan 21:12 Hmm.

Luke Thomas 21:12 Which one apparently was the official... So, uh, Taekwondo is, as I understand it, and someone's gonna correct me on this. But as I understand it, it, it was explained to me, was that, uh, Taekwondo is the official sport of South Korea, but Tuokong was the official martial art or self-defense system of the military.

Joe Rogan 21:28 Well, it was Tae- Taekyon. T-A-E-K-Y-O-N. Is what we were taught, was like a, an earlier version of Taekwondo. And then-

Luke Thomas 21:37 I don't know anything about it, other than what this guy told us.

Joe Rogan 21:39 General Choi, General Choi Young E, he was the guy... I was a... I used to teach Taekwondo.

Luke Thomas 21:42 Right, right, right.

Joe Rogan 21:43 And General Choi Young E was the guy who really formulated Taekwondo into a system. And my instructor, Jae Han Kim, was one of Choi Young E's original students.

Luke Thomas 21:55 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:55 So I got real lucky that I got it, like, from the, the root. I got like-

Luke Thomas 21:59 Right.

Joe Rogan 21:59 ... early Taekwondo, like rough, like attacking Taekwondo. Before, it was like more of a point fighting sort of a thing.

Luke Thomas 22:05 Right. Well, eh, whatever the, the, uh, his background, I, I can't speak to it, to, um, accurately. All I know is that I remember it was the summer of... God, was it '95, '96? Something like that. And he was like, "Have you seen these skinny Brazilian dudes out here fucking people up?"

Joe Rogan 22:20 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 22:20 That's always how they introduce it, right?

Joe Rogan 22:21 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 22:22 And I didn't believe it. And he's like, "Let's go to Blockbuster." I went down to Blockbuster. It's the one down there by Barracks Row, for folks who are in Washington DC listening. It's now a, a farmer's market or a Yes Market. And, uh, it used to be a Blockbuster. I went down in there and I got, uh, UFC 4 was the first one I ever saw.

Joe Rogan 22:37 For me it was 2.

Luke Thomas 22:38 It was 2?

Joe Rogan 22:38 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 22:38 Me it was 4. And, uh, obviously he had four... I think it was, it was 3 he had skipped before he came back and fought Kimo. What was the one where he had, uh... I forget, I forget the, the genesis. But there was enough in the video where he was just like lighting these people up, and the way... You're like, "How the fuck is this possible?" And it's been politicized now and it takes on a different meaning, but that truly was red pilled at that moment. Like-

Joe Rogan 22:57 Yep.

Luke Thomas 22:57 ... there was a eureka moment and the lights go on and you're like, "Wow, this really is the future."

Joe Rogan 23:00 It's a bummer that red pill has been politicized.

Luke Thomas 23:02 I know, 'cause it's such a great term.

Joe Rogan 23:04 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 23:04 Isn't it?

Joe Rogan 23:04 It's a great term.

Luke Thomas 23:05 It's like you just see Lord-

Joe Rogan 23:06 If you're a Matrix fan.

Luke Thomas 23:07 You see Laurence Fishburne giving you the choice, you know.

Joe Rogan 23:09 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's been really, uh, co-opted. Uh, 'cause, uh, that was the name that Radio Raheem came up with for the... Radio Raheem, the, uh, boxing commentator.

Luke Thomas 23:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:17 He came up with that for this room.

Luke Thomas 23:18 To this day. That guy.

Joe Rogan 23:19 And I'm like... Yeah, that guy. Yeah. I'm not sure... Have you seen... That's a bummer, man. The Deontay Wilder stuff that's going on right now.

Luke Thomas 23:25 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 23:25 He's, he's released-... three different excuses. The first one was the weight vest, the, the thing that he was wearing, that crazy costume, weighed 40 pounds. Apparently, it wore his legs out. The next one was that, th- there was a bunch of people saying that Tyson Fury's gloves, um, weren't attached correctly, so the gloves were extended. So, he was hitting him with the knuckles.

Luke Thomas 23:47 Right.

Joe Rogan 23:47 And the g- the, the glove part was not really attached. It was like, so he was catching him, like, with the part that's supposed to be over the wrist. Not correct, not true, and easily provable. The next one, he said, "Egg weights." He said he had egg weights in his hand. This is recent, like a couple days ago. Then yesterday, there was an article that said that he believes that he was, his water was poisoned.

Luke Thomas 24:07 By his own trainer.

Joe Rogan 24:08 And Mark Breland-

Luke Thomas 24:09 Right.

Joe Rogan 24:09 ... was a part of that.

Luke Thomas 24:10 Understand, for folks who may not know who Mark Breland is, former, uh, uh, I think Olympic gold medalist.

Joe Rogan 24:14 Yes.

Luke Thomas 24:14 World champion.

Joe Rogan 24:15 Yes.

Luke Thomas 24:15 Uh, across two different weight divisions if I'm not mistaken. He is the voice of sanity, or was, till he was dismissed in that corner. That was the guy that threw the towel for him, who... How, I mean, Breland should be thanked-

Joe Rogan 24:27 Yes.

Luke Thomas 24:27 ... by Wilder and his camp until the end of time. His other trainer, um, uh, oh, I forget his last name. Starts with a D. He was out there at the post-fight press conference being like, "You know, I don't know if I would've thrown that towel." It's like, you fucking yes-man.

Joe Rogan 24:39 Oh, my God.

Luke Thomas 24:39 Are you kidding me?

Joe Rogan 24:40 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 24:41 Breland took it upon himself to, uh, I don't know, save the guy's life, but certainly make the right call for halting the contest. He was thanked by being dismissed and now essentially dragged through the mud with utterly, what I'm, I'm guessing, are utterly baseless accusations about poisoning his own fighter.

Joe Rogan 24:58 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 24:58 And I mean, maybe Tyson Fury's fucking awesome. That seems like the simplest explanation-

Joe Rogan 25:02 Well-

Luke Thomas 25:03 ... for all of this.

Joe Rogan 25:03 ... Tyson Fury changed his strategy (clears throat) . And also, you have to realize that Tyson Fury, in the first fight, was coming off of a multiple-year battle with depression. A mental illness, drinking, got suicidal thoughts. He talked on my podcast about driving his Ferrari and almost slamming into a bridge. He's like, "I was, I was, I f- pedal to the metal, and I was thinking about slamming into this bridge."

Luke Thomas 25:23 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:24 And then he changed his mind. And, and he just slowly worked his way into shape, got healthy again, got his mind right again, and pulled it back around. But when he fought Deontay Wilder the first time, his father didn't want him to take the fight. He's like, "You're not healthy enough yet. You're not ready yet." And he did his best, he fought well, but it was a draw. By the time they fought the second time, he was in tip-top condition.

Luke Thomas 25:47 Right.

Joe Rogan 25:47 He had gone through the camp for the first fight. His body was completely recovered from all the abusive alcohol and cocaine and all the shit that he was doing. And then he took on, um, the Kronk trainer, Sugar Hill. And then his whole strategy changed. He's like, "The guy does not fight well off the heel, off the back foot. Let's, let's move him back." And Tyson Fury is fucking enormous.

Luke Thomas 26:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:09 You know, he's huge.

Luke Thomas 26:10 6'9".

Joe Rogan 26:11 Yeah. And he came into the fight, I think he was like 280.

Luke Thomas 26:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:13 And so he just pressed him and pressed him and just was throwing bombs. And I don't think Deontay Wilder expected that.

Luke Thomas 26:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:19 Deontay Wilder expected him to run and move and jab and fight the same way he fought in the first fight. Instead, Tyson Fury just came right at him, and just clipped him hard and often. And I think if you go back to their first fight, and you look at how when Tyson Fury got dropped in the 12th, rose like Lazarus, and then came back, survived, and then started winning the round.

Luke Thomas 26:38 Right.

Joe Rogan 26:38 And then I think he realized from that moment on, "Oh, the way to beat this guy is to back him up."

Luke Thomas 26:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 26:43 And then he took that strategy.

Luke Thomas 26:45 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 26:45 Sugar Hill, of course, like, Kronk, legendary aggressive attack. I mean, they, they're like the, for people who are MMA fans who love Shoot the Box, they're like the Shoot the Box of boxing, right?

Luke Thomas 26:55 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:55 If you think about it.

Luke Thomas 26:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:56 Like, aggressive, attacking, multiple champions, Gerald McClellan, Tommy Hearns. I mean, the list goes on and on. And he employed that sort of attacking strategy. And he's a fucking masterful boxer too.

Luke Thomas 27:08 Right. That's the other part about him. People, folks don't realize, he can play the defensive game. I think you saw it in the Otto Wallin fight. He's so long and has such good trunk movement, he can actually lean on the ropes, and the punches go in front because he's so tall-

Joe Rogan 27:21 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 27:21 ... and long, he can do, he can play that game.

Joe Rogan 27:23 Well, the M- the Klitschko fight.

Luke Thomas 27:24 Right. Exactly.

Joe Rogan 27:26 It's how box-

Luke Thomas 27:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 27:26 Vladimir Klitschko is one of the greatest ever.

Luke Thomas 27:28 W- wasn't the most thrilling fight.

Joe Rogan 27:29 Right.

Luke Thomas 27:29 I mean, the Wilder fight was much better. But, um, I did a whole video on it, and too, and I was, like, amazed. He, j- from the stance he took, he had a little bit of an A-frame stance. So, you could say just a way, and he was always, um, a, a double jab away.

Joe Rogan 27:41 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 27:41 So, he was long enough where he was outside of anything that Wilder could've put together, he was a real one-two kind of guy. Or, you know, you know, Wilder would just come lunging in with a punch. And he was good enough to back him up and then steer him into punches. And I always talk about this. Eugene Behrman, uh, who is the, you know, and everyone gets on me 'cause I'm always promoting City Kickboxing. I, but it's like-

Joe Rogan 27:59 He's a masterful trainer.

Luke Thomas 28:00 It's like, well, not only that. I mean, every once in a while, you come around to a guy who not only can train fighters to a high degree, but has an idea about what the game is missing and how to fill that gap. And they are big believers in feinting. They, they, they, they make a point. They basically say, like, "How is it possible you can have people come from this little tiny island?" And, you know, Adesanya is the very best version of that. But, like, they've got good fight- Brad, Brad Riddell, uh, Shane Young-

Joe Rogan 28:27 Dan Hooker.

Luke Thomas 28:28 Dan Hooker. They got a lot of guys. And Volkanovski has trained under Brad, who trained under, uh, Eugene. But basically what they believe is that what has been missing for a long time in MMA striking is effective faking, faking and feinting.

Joe Rogan 28:39 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 28:39 And that, uh, they do shadow boxing drills for hours just on feinting.

Joe Rogan 28:44 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 28:44 (claps) No punches thrown, just feinting. Just to set it all up, because they basically say if you look at the way which a lot of American and even European strikers throw, it's a lot of sit down and throw combinations.

Joe Rogan 28:54 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 28:55 Uh, which you could do, but they don't really believe that's the best way to do it. The best gap to fill is that. Fury, to circle the point here, is excellent. He is such-... a brilliant feinter. And he had Deontay Wilder dead to rights over and over and over again, which he didn't really do the first time around. And so, you know, all these excuses about, "My trainer poisoned me." Uh-uh.

Joe Rogan 29:17 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 29:17 It's like, it's like, um, that's not what the tape shows, bro.

Joe Rogan 29:20 Well, he got a... He was making excuses when he got dropped with the first punch. He was like pointing to the back of his head, and he was upset, and you could see. It's like, it's really weird, it's weird, really weird when you see a guy who's so utterly dominant and who has what Teddy Atlas calls the great eraser, that right hand.

Luke Thomas 29:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:36 'Cause it really is.

Luke Thomas 29:37 Yeah, man.

Joe Rogan 29:37 It erases all your problems. You, you fucked up a little bit? Watch this. Blang.

Luke Thomas 29:41 Hwak.

Joe Rogan 29:41 All your mistakes, gone with that... His right hand is a force of nature.

Luke Thomas 29:46 It's one of the best right hands in the history of the sport.

Joe Rogan 29:48 Ever.

Luke Thomas 29:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:48 Ever. The Luis Ortiz fight? Like, what the fuck, man?

Luke Thomas 29:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:53 What the fuck? Hit him on the forehead.

Luke Thomas 29:54 Yep.

Joe Rogan 29:55 And Ortiz is down, like, with a look in his face like, "What the f- What happened?"

Luke Thomas 29:59 And Ortiz is not some chump.

Joe Rogan 30:00 He's huge.

Luke Thomas 30:01 He's a Cuban boxer-

Joe Rogan 30:02 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 30:03 ... you know-

Joe Rogan 30:03 World-class.

Luke Thomas 30:03 ... who has great pedigree. One shot set his ass down.

Joe Rogan 30:07 And he was winning the fight.

Luke Thomas 30:08 Yep, exactly.

Joe Rogan 30:09 Yeah. And all-

Luke Thomas 30:10 He was winning the fight.

Joe Rogan 30:10 And all the sudden, blang.

Luke Thomas 30:12 But if you look at the... Uh, my, my view on his power is that for straight rights, right, which is really what he basically throws or maybe a little bit overhandy-

Joe Rogan 30:19 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 30:19 ... 'cause it's a little bit looping, that's one of the best, if not the best, right hands in all of boxing. If you're talking about full-on power punchers, though, I don't know that he's got the full repertoire. Like, is his uppercut with his right hand as good as his straight? I don't know that it is. You see a guy like Earnie Shavers?

Joe Rogan 30:33 Right.

Luke Thomas 30:34 Fuck, bro.

Joe Rogan 30:34 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 30:35 Go look up Earnie Shavers highlights on YouTube, and then s- and smoke some weed beforehand.

Joe Rogan 30:39 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 30:40 You will literally laugh at what he does to men.

Joe Rogan 30:42 For sure.

Luke Thomas 30:43 It's shocking to watch his power. And he has the full repertoire of it, you know?

Joe Rogan 30:46 Yeah, a lot of fighters who fought him said he has the most powerful punch that they ever faced, a lot of fighters.

Luke Thomas 30:50 Someone told me, I forget who it was, but they, uh, they got hit by Shavers, and then they felt it in the, um, in the roof of their foot.

Joe Rogan 30:58 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 30:58 The, the, what's the, what's the, like, the, the, the-

Joe Rogan 31:00 Arch?

Luke Thomas 31:00 The arch. They felt it in the arch of their... It like radiated into the arch-

Joe Rogan 31:03 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 31:03 ... of their foot. What the fuck is that?

Joe Rogan 31:06 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 31:06 I never heard some shit like that. You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 31:08 Yeah. Well, power's a weird thing, right? Like, you're either born with it or you're not. I mean, I've, I've seen so many guys who you, you'd look at, and they're, they're big-

Luke Thomas 31:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:16 ... and strong, and you would say, "Wow, I bet that guy hits hard," and they can't crack an egg.

Luke Thomas 31:20 No.

Joe Rogan 31:20 There is, there's, like, there's a bunch of 'em. There's always been a bunch of 'em. In boxing, there's been a bunch of 'em. Like, you see 'em in the gym, and then you see guys like... Do you remember Michael McDonald when he was a kid, when he was coming up?

Luke Thomas 31:30 Yes.

Joe Rogan 31:31 Skinny, looks like a little boy, knock people into another dimension, and you're like, "Whoa, this is crazy."

Luke Thomas 31:37 Do you follow boxing currently at all?

Joe Rogan 31:38 Yes, yes, I do.

Luke Thomas 31:39 So, how about this kid, Jaime Munguia? You seen him?

Joe Rogan 31:42 I have not seen him.

Luke Thomas 31:42 He fought last Friday night. Holy mother of God. You look at him. He obviously is an athlete, right? He's in good shape. You would look at him and think, "Yeah," you know, I'm not gonna say average, but there's nothing that stands out about him. At least Wilder is huge.

Joe Rogan 31:57 Right.

Luke Thomas 31:57 He's bricked up.

Joe Rogan 31:58 Makes sense.

Luke Thomas 31:58 Munguia is in, is in, is in fight shape, but he's not bricked up. And this fucking guy, I mean, he's rearranging... I mean, he is keeping dentists in business.

Joe Rogan 32:06 Was he on Showtime?

Luke Thomas 32:07 He was on DAZN.

Joe Rogan 32:08 DAZN.

Luke Thomas 32:08 He was on DAZN.

Joe Rogan 32:09 And what was the undercard of which fight?

Luke Thomas 32:11 Oh, God. I don't, I don't, I don't remember. I only tuned in 'cause I was like, "I have an alert for Jaime Munguia whenever he fights."

Joe Rogan 32:16 Oh, really?

Luke Thomas 32:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:17 He's that good?

Luke Thomas 32:17 Yeah. Uh, there's Munguia, the guy on the left. This fuck... Look at him. Does he look like a power puncher to you?

Joe Rogan 32:22 Wow, super normal.

Luke Thomas 32:23 He is arguably the biggest power puncher in boxing.

Joe Rogan 32:26 What?

Luke Thomas 32:26 For, by, by weight. Arguably.

Joe Rogan 32:27 Really?

Luke Thomas 32:27 Arguably, yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:28 That's crazy.

Luke Thomas 32:29 That fucking guy can crack, and I think he rearranges... Oh, so you remember the, the lip split that-

Joe Rogan 32:34 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 32:34 ... Overeem had when he fought-

Joe Rogan 32:35 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 32:35 ... Rosenstrach? Wait 'til you see what he does to this fucking guy's face. He uppercuts him to the point where a piece of his face goes flying off. This was last Friday. This was just a, a couple of days ago. Look at that shit. Look at that. That was from one uppercut.

Joe Rogan 32:48 Oh, my God.

Luke Thomas 32:49 Look at his face, Joe!

Joe Rogan 32:51 That's pretty crazy.

Luke Thomas 32:52 (laughs) He looks like he got attacked by a bear.

Joe Rogan 32:54 Now, do they let fights go on in boxing with a split lip like that?

Luke Thomas 32:57 No, they called it eventually here, I think.

Joe Rogan 32:58 That's interesting because, like, you remember Robbie Lawler with that crazy split lip-

Luke Thomas 33:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:02 ... when he fought Rory MacDonald? Um-

Luke Thomas 33:04 But it wa- but it was right at the end.

Joe Rogan 33:06 Interesting.

Luke Thomas 33:07 And then, uh, yeah, I mean, look at that shit.

Joe Rogan 33:09 How about the Gervonta Davis knockout?

Luke Thomas 33:11 Bro.

Joe Rogan 33:13 How beautiful is that uppercut?

Luke Thomas 33:14 That was a thing of beauty.

Joe Rogan 33:15 The same uppercut that Povetkin used.

Luke Thomas 33:18 Uh, yeah, a little bit. Uh-

Joe Rogan 33:19 Similar, that same like-

Luke Thomas 33:21 If you go and look closely-

Joe Rogan 33:22 ... slip in with the left uppercut.

Luke Thomas 33:22 ... uh, Gervonta is, uh, squared, and so he's leaning to either side.

Joe Rogan 33:25 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 33:26 And so when the punch comes, he's able to slip this direction.

Joe Rogan 33:28 Oh, yeah.

Luke Thomas 33:28 So he's left-handed, Joe, but he-

Joe Rogan 33:30 Here it is.

Luke Thomas 33:31 So, watch. See, look at it... Look how he's squared?

Joe Rogan 33:32 Oh, yeah. He's totally squared.

Luke Thomas 33:33 So, see how-

Joe Rogan 33:34 Boom.

Luke Thomas 33:34 See how that left hand go... Can you go back and pause it for just a second? I wanna show you something. Pause it right at the moment of impact, if you can, if it, if it's at all possible. This is when he's gonna throw here. So, he slips. Now, watch. First of all, the Povetkin one, the arm was extended, so it came under the arm.

Joe Rogan 33:52 God.

Luke Thomas 33:53 This is in front. It's on the inside angle. But notice, Gervonta is left-handed. He is left hand forward here.

Joe Rogan 33:59 Oh.

Luke Thomas 33:59 So, he's squared, and he's... You know how some guys jab with their power hand?

Joe Rogan 34:02 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 34:03 To, like, throw people off or just stick 'em with it?

Joe Rogan 34:05 De La Hoya.

Luke Thomas 34:05 So, he... Exactly. So, he sat in square and then-

Joe Rogan 34:08 Oh.

Luke Thomas 34:08 ... gave this guy every inch of a lead uppercut from his power hand.

Joe Rogan 34:12 God. Damn, that was a beautiful shot. Look at that.

Luke Thomas 34:15 Al Bernstein got saved, too, 'cause poor... Al, Al Bernstein's the man. I love Al. Every time I've interacted with him, he's the sweetest guy.

Joe Rogan 34:20 He's a great guy.

Luke Thomas 34:21 And he was about to say, "You know, if, if, uh..." (laughs) He was like right in the middle of saying, "You know, if, uh, Gervonta Davis thinks that his power is gonna put, uh, you know, Santa Cruz down..." And then he cracked him with it, so he stopped mid-sentence.

Joe Rogan 34:33 Whoo.

Luke Thomas 34:33 Wouldn't have been his fault because the point was, like, Santa Cruz opened up. Like, he was engaging with the guy.

Joe Rogan 34:38 Davis is like... I think he's... What does he got, 23 knockouts?

Luke Thomas 34:42 Something like... He's only had-

Joe Rogan 34:43 Something insane.

Luke Thomas 34:43 ... one person go the distance, yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:45 Yeah, which i- but it, well, goes back to the Wilder fight. Like, Wilder, Deontay, before Tyson Fury beat him, had only gone to decision two times. Tyson Fury and, uh, Dominic Breazeale? Is that what it was?

Luke Thomas 34:59 Breazeale, he knocked out in the first round in the rematch.

Joe Rogan 35:01 In the rematch.

Luke Thomas 35:02 Oh, no. B- uh, Bermane Stiverne, right?

Joe Rogan 35:03 That's right, Stiverne. Stiverne was in the first fight. He beat him by decision.

Luke Thomas 35:07 Right.

Joe Rogan 35:07 And so, he had been used... Uh, and he had gotten so confident towards the end of his career. I remember, there's a photo of him walking, um, to the fight or walking through a casino in Vegas. It's an amazing photo. He's wearing a fur coat with an open shirt, holding his wife's hand.

Luke Thomas 35:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:25 ... and he just looks like the ultimate heavyweight champ in the world.

Luke Thomas 35:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:28 Like, y- you see him, like, that is what I want from a heavyweight champion. Just top of the game, just wearing these crazy sunglasses, fully shredded-

Luke Thomas 35:37 Yep.

Joe Rogan 35:37 ... fur coat, holding his wife's hand. I'm like, "That i- that's a heavyweight champion."

Luke Thomas 35:41 Connor has that in his head.

Joe Rogan 35:43 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 35:43 Connor's the heavyweight champ of the world in his head, you know?

Joe Rogan 35:45 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 35:45 Which I don't, like, I'm not bashing him for it. Like, I want-

Joe Rogan 35:47 Right, right.

Luke Thomas 35:47 ... I want, I want that.

Joe Rogan 35:48 That swagger.

Luke Thomas 35:49 Yeah, you should-

Joe Rogan 35:49 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 35:49 ... you should be resplendent and ignorant and amazing-

Joe Rogan 35:51 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 35:51 ... all at once.

Joe Rogan 35:52 See if you can find that photo of D'Onta Wilder ho- holding his wife's hand, wearing a fur coat, because one of my favorite fighter photos, like, getting ready for a fight of all time, 'cause it's so just aggressively confident, just and on top of the world.

Luke Thomas 36:07 How do you do that? It's almost like a "fuck you" to everybody.

Joe Rogan 36:10 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 36:10 You know?

Joe Rogan 36:10 Yeah. I mean, he was s- basically, he was being the baddest man on the planet.

Luke Thomas 36:14 I don't think I've ever had that kind of self-confidence ever.

Joe Rogan 36:17 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 36:17 You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 36:18 Well, you'd h- I mean, you have to have that to be that guy.

Luke Thomas 36:21 Right.

Joe Rogan 36:21 Right? I mean-

Luke Thomas 36:21 Especially when you have, you know, he doesn't have the widest skill set, you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 36:26 No. I mean, well, literally came into the game, I mean, I- I had the privilege of... That's one of him. Is that the one... There's one where he's got no shirt on, up- up in the...

Luke Thomas 36:34 Is it for the first or second OT fight?

Joe Rogan 36:35 Oh, in that he doesn't have a shirt on? It's just a...

Narrator 36:37 Sorry.

Joe Rogan 36:37 Oh, okay. Oh, okay, there it is. Yeah, there it is. (laughs) That's it. There's a few of those.

Luke Thomas 36:42 He looks like Mr. T with all the chains too.

Joe Rogan 36:44 Yeah. (scoffs) I mean, come on, man.

Luke Thomas 36:46 And you got a white guy getting your luggage, even better.

Joe Rogan 36:48 (laughs) He just... I mean, I'm a fan of his, I really am. And I'm a fan of his as a human being. I really enjoyed talking to him, and he told me a story-

Luke Thomas 36:57 He's a great interview.

Joe Rogan 36:57 He's a great guy. He got into boxing 'cause his daughter was sick.

Luke Thomas 37:01 Right.

Joe Rogan 37:01 And he was deli-

Luke Thomas 37:02 Spina bifida, right?

Joe Rogan 37:03 Yeah, he... And he's a delivery guy for, like... was it Budweiser or something like that, or Coca-Cola? I forget.

Luke Thomas 37:09 Some... Yeah, some liquid.

Joe Rogan 37:10 And he was like, "Look, I gotta make some fucking money," and he knew he wasn't gonna be able to play, uh, in a college sport or in a professional sport without a college background. So he's like, "Well, I'm gonna get into boxing." A year and a half in, wins a bronze medal in the Olympics.

Luke Thomas 37:23 Right.

Joe Rogan 37:24 Like, what the fuck?

Luke Thomas 37:26 (laughs) Just dumb power.

Joe Rogan 37:28 Crazy-

Luke Thomas 37:28 Dumb power.

Joe Rogan 37:28 ... power. Crazy, like, like, a one in a billion human power.

Luke Thomas 37:32 But have, have you ever seen him interact with his kids? Like, e- v- the, the nobility of trying to do that for your daughter is one thing. He's got, like, a bunch of kids. He's got, like, five or six of them. And I've n- like, uh... I did not... I d- I just had a kid about 18 months ago, and I didn't understand it when I would watch. But, like, I don't think he's happier than when, when he's with his children, and it's not even... there's not even a close second. Like, uh, a doting family man. It's really unfortunate he's made these excuses because-

Joe Rogan 37:56 Yeah, it's a bummer.

Luke Thomas 37:56 ... as a person, he s- seems like such a sweet guy.

Joe Rogan 37:59 It's a bummer. And I, and I wish someone was there to advise him.

Luke Thomas 38:02 Breeland. He was.

Joe Rogan 38:04 Well, you should bring, you know... I don't know, maybe Mark doesn't have the kind of relationship with him that he can call him up and-

Luke Thomas 38:08 My understanding is, uh, his, uh, his manager, Deontay's manager, was the one who brought in Breeland-

Joe Rogan 38:14 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 38:14 ... years ago, as, like, a... with, like, "We need somebody here who's, like, a high-level trainer," uh, and brought him in, and it worked for a time anyway, but here we are.

Joe Rogan 38:23 I talked to Roy Jones about him, and Roy Jones was saying if he trained him, what he would train him is to... he would concentrate on his left hand. He was like, "You... We already know you can put people to sleep with your right hand." He goes, "Well, what about your left hand?" He goes, "I want you to keep people distanced. Use the jab, use the hook." He goes, "I would concentrate on just working that left hand."

Luke Thomas 38:40 Mm.

Joe Rogan 38:41 He goes, "That would fix so many of his problems," 'cause his left hand is just like, "Here comes the right."

Luke Thomas 38:45 Right.

Joe Rogan 38:45 "Here comes the right. Boom!" I mean, he'll throw jabs, but you're not terrified of it the way you're terrified of Roy Jones' left hand. You know, Roy Jones' l- have you ever seen Roy Jones' left bicep?

Luke Thomas 38:55 Is it the one that, uh, it split- it splits down the middle like a perfect-

Joe Rogan 38:58 No. He'll show you, like, his right bicep is, like, a normal bicep, and his left biceps, like, twice the size. It's crazy. It's huge. 'Cause he-

Luke Thomas 39:06 He got the Sage Northcutt bicep?

Joe Rogan 39:07 ... 'cause he throws so many left hooks.

Luke Thomas 39:10 Oh.

Joe Rogan 39:10 Like, he was flexing. He was like, "Look at this." And I was like, "That's cra-" He's sitting, right? He was like, "This one's normal."

Luke Thomas 39:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:15 But if you look at this one, his left... Look at his left bicep.

Luke Thomas 39:17 Yeah, he's got that Sage Northcutt splitter down the middle.

Joe Rogan 39:19 Dude, it's enormous. I mean, it's enormous. It's, it's, it's crazy how much bigger it is, like, legitimately 50% larger.

Luke Thomas 39:28 Wow.

Joe Rogan 39:28 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 39:28 I had no idea.

Joe Rogan 39:29 Well, his left hook is just a thing of beauty.

Luke Thomas 39:31 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:31 When he was in his prime, he barely jabbed people. He would just leaping left hook them and, and crack them. And his speed, his f- his foot speed and his hand speed were so incredible that he could get away with that.

Luke Thomas 39:41 I know folks, uh, of this modern era, they know the name, but they don't really know what he meant-

Joe Rogan 39:46 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 39:46 ... to the game, you know? Like, if someone asked me, "Who's the modern Roy Jones Jr in boxing?" There isn't one.

Joe Rogan 39:51 There's not one.

Luke Thomas 39:51 There's o- There's, like, this guy did take risks and liberties and had crazy athleticism and pinpoint punching, and showman... He was a showman too. There's great boxers. There's fan- fan... There's... Boxing's in a great place in many ways. There's nobody who does what he did.

Joe Rogan 40:07 Roy made world champions look like they had no business in there. And people were like, "Oh, well, he didn't fight anybody," and he-

Luke Thomas 40:13 Bullshit, he didn't fight anybody.

Joe Rogan 40:14 (laughs) He fought- fought world champions. He fought really tough guys, but he fucked them all up. I mean...

Luke Thomas 40:20 It's the same with Khabib.

Joe Rogan 40:21 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 40:21 "Oh, Khabib didn't fight anybody." No, motherfucker.

Joe Rogan 40:23 (laughs) Yeah.

Luke Thomas 40:23 He makes them look like he... they're fighting me. That's the difference.

Joe Rogan 40:26 Look what he did to Justin Gaethje. That's all you need to know. Y- if you say Justin Gaethje's a nobody, you're crazy. You watch that Tony Ferguson fight? Justin Gaethje's a fucking animal.

Luke Thomas 40:34 He's a savage.

Joe Rogan 40:34 And he just closed that gap, and he ate a lot of leg kicks too, man. He ate a lot of leg kicks that would've... I mean, I don't know how many of those you can eat from Justin.

Luke Thomas 40:44 Right.

Joe Rogan 40:44 Maybe he had, like, five or six more in the tank-

Luke Thomas 40:46 Right.

Joe Rogan 40:46 ... to, uh, on E, but he closed the gap and then wound up finishing with a triangle off of his back. I mean, goddamn, man.

Luke Thomas 40:53 S- serious question about this, 'cause I went through it a couple times.

Joe Rogan 40:55 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 40:55 So from the moment he got kicked-

Joe Rogan 40:57 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 40:58 ... and he initiates the take-down, so it was a kick, uh... He tried the first round, he did it off a head inside single, didn't work. Second round, he tried it off a double from the outside leg kick. First round was an inside leg kick, hence the, hence the inside single. Didn't work, so then he goes to the double. It's 22 seconds from that till the finish.

Joe Rogan 41:13 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 41:14 So 22 seconds were apart, 22 seconds later, you're unconscious. I mean-... so, this is my question to you. Is that the best back take you've ever seen in MMA? Because what he does is, when Gaethje is sprawling in this contest, he's not just sprawling. He is sprawling and turning so he doesn't get pushed into the fence. He was very diligent about that in the Alvarez and the Gaethje fights. You can go back and you can watch it. So in this fight when, you, you see the level change that Khabib hits, you see automatically Gaethje turn-

Joe Rogan 41:40 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 41:40 ... because he doesn't want to get turned that direction. But what Kha- Khabib does is he actually scoots under him, pulls him up, and then with his head, posts him over, gets the hands to plant. Well, once the hands are planted, the double is over. He doesn't care about it anymore. Now, he just wants the tight waist. And from the tight waist, he's holding... Y- y- his elbows aren't flared.

Joe Rogan 41:57 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 41:58 They're tight here, right? Like he's T-Rexing inside. At that point, you have created, if you're Justin Gaethje, putting your hands, you've created a stable structure for this guy to now mount. Plus, if you wanna escape to the fence to like stand, he can control the, uh, ascent. So he goes, double, turns, pushes his hands to the mat, forces Gaethje down. And then with his, uh, his, uh, gable grip, then keeps it there and then replaces it with the hooks, and then turns into a he- uh, turns into a fake, not a real, Joe Rogan, a fake, uh, head and arm triangle attempt just so Gaethje gets his elbows away from his body. Then he chair sits to, uh, occupy the space, then throws a leg over, and then sits back and takes mercy upon him. As we learn later from Daniel Cormier, rather than arm bar him from his moms, "I'm just going to triangle you because that's the merciful..." This guy is out here taking fucking pity-

Joe Rogan 42:50 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 42:50 ... on his opponents. And he's doing back takes like that. He is... Jon Jones, to me, is the most accomplished fighter we've ever seen. Like the, the, the things accumulate over time. No one is as flawless as Khabib Nurmagomedov. Not even close.

Joe Rogan 43:04 I think that is the argument, right? Like who is the GOAT? I think if you look at Jon Jones's early career, right? Jon Jones wins the title in 2011, and from then on has fought more fights as championship fights than he has other fights. So he's, uh, the most accomplished for sure. Wins the title, earliest, youngest guy to ever win the title in the UFC. Beats Mauricio Shogun Rua, who's a legend, and then the way he dominates all these other fighters. Up until you get to Alexander Gustafsson, you could make the argument that he had a similar career. You could make the argument, like if you look at what he did, Jon didn't lose any rounds. Jon was smashing people. You look what he did to Rashad Evans. Look at what he did to Rampage Jackson. Look at what he did to Lyoto Machida. Look what he did to everybody. All... Everybody he fought up until the Gustafsson fight. But the Gustafsson fight, then you have to say well, how much slack do you give him for admittedly not training? Because it was a really close fight. He pulls it out in the championship round even though he's out of shape, even though... You talk to Greg Jackson, he didn't train for that fight. Didn't fucking train. Like barely worked out but definitely didn't go through a training camp. Still managed to beat one of the best guys in the division after getting taken down for the first time in his career. Then goes on a tear, right? Beats... Y- y- look at the way he beat Daniel Cormier in the first fight. Took him down. Like who the fuck takes-

Luke Thomas 44:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:23 ... Daniel Cormier down, right?

Luke Thomas 44:24 Right.

Joe Rogan 44:24 And then you look at him in the second fight. Even though it was ruled a no contest, we know what the fuck happened. He head kicked him and stopped him, you know? It was f- s- spectacular. You look at what Jon has done, then you have to take into account the things that didn't go that well. And we haven't seen those from Khabib yet. You have to take into account the fight like Thiago Santos, right? That fight goes to a, a split decision. You're like, "Whoa." Dominick Reyes, Dominick Reyes, thought he won the fight.

Luke Thomas 44:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 44:50 Real close.

Luke Thomas 44:51 I did too.

Joe Rogan 44:51 Real close fight. So those fights haven't happened with Khabib yet and we don't know if they ever could. We don't know, right? Like right now, what you see flawless victory after flawless victory. You can maybe make the argument that Khabib lost two rounds his entire career. Maybe the second round against Justin or, uh-

Luke Thomas 45:09 First round against Justin you could argue.

Joe Rogan 45:10 ... first round rather. Maybe first round rather against Justin and maybe the third round with Conor.

Luke Thomas 45:14 That's right.

Joe Rogan 45:14 That's it.

Luke Thomas 45:15 Right.

Joe Rogan 45:15 And either one of those didn't get cut, didn't get dropped, didn't get hurt.

Luke Thomas 45:18 Right. To never get cut and to never get dropped, I don't think folks understand what that means.

Joe Rogan 45:21 Crazy.

Luke Thomas 45:21 In a sport filled with... It's not a scientific measurement per se, right? Who gets cut the most or something. But in a sport built on unpredictability-

Joe Rogan 45:29 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 45:29 ... on violence. Uh, you know, St-Pierre went to wrestling to get away from all of that in large, in large part and then to never experience that is like... It is shocking beyond description. I don't-

Joe Rogan 45:39 Shocking.

Luke Thomas 45:40 I don't know how to explain that to folks. It's a... But to your point, the thing about Khabib where he falls short is that it's just an inevitability. Like your run through 29 fights is the best run I've seen through 29 fights-

Joe Rogan 45:50 Ever.

Luke Thomas 45:51 ... ever.

Joe Rogan 45:51 Ever.

Luke Thomas 45:51 But I, you know, and Jon's not my best friend or anything but I just don't... That is the best total resume I've ever seen.

Joe Rogan 46:01 Jon is the best resume.

Luke Thomas 46:03 It's just, it's not... I mean, I know he got... He was, he was getting all salty on Twitter being like, "These fucking Khabib fans." It's like, dude, put the...

Joe Rogan 46:09 Eh, he shouldn't do that.

Luke Thomas 46:10 Well, he shouldn't do it, but here's my point to Jon. It's like, "Dude, put the keyboard down for just a second. Here's what's gonna happen. You're gonna go to heavyweight and you're gonna probably win. I mean, I don't know that's a guarantee but let's assume that you do. All of the conversa-... Everything that happens right now is just recency bias." And Khabib retired-

Joe Rogan 46:25 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 46:25 ... and his father died and it was this incredibly sad-

Joe Rogan 46:27 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 46:27 ... and like yet-

Joe Rogan 46:28 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 46:28 ... inspiring moment. Let the fucking guy have his moment because when you have your moment, all of the con- the worm is going to turn.

Joe Rogan 46:35 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 46:35 And then everyone's gonna be like, "Jon's the fucking greatest." It's he's going to get his, just not today at this moment.

Joe Rogan 46:40 Recency bias, that's real. Recent bias is, that's a, that's a real thing. Like, you know, we just watched Khabib and then the fact that Khabib did supposedly retire. Come on son, I know you want some more of this.

Luke Thomas 46:51 Yeah, I know.

Joe Rogan 46:52 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 46:52 I, I haven't eaten much though, my head is spinning a little bit.

Joe Rogan 46:55 That's all right.

Luke Thomas 46:55 Everyone asks me like when I go on, it's like, "Are you gonna smoke weed?" I'm like, "There's no chance I'm smoking Joe Rogan's-

Joe Rogan 47:01 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 47:01 ... fucking super weed."

Joe Rogan 47:02 There's no chance I'm smoking it right now.

Luke Thomas 47:04 Salud.

Joe Rogan 47:04 I haven't done anything in a month. I had a couple glass of wine last night and I was like, "Woo."

Luke Thomas 47:08 Yeah, I'm feeling it a little bit. Gotta be careful.

Joe Rogan 47:11 The, um, the Jon Jode situation is also, uh, it's a contrast in personalities, right? Khabib, who's this really-... w- religious, very moral, ethical person who doesn't drink, he doesn't party, he doesn't do anything, he just trains. He's always in phenomenal shape. He, he takes every fight incredibly serious. He's never been out of shape. He's never been fat. He's never... I mean, he's missed weight a couple of times earlier in his career, but he got that dialed in. He's, he's just, uh, so dedicated, whereas Jon is a wild man.

Luke Thomas 47:44 Right.

Joe Rogan 47:44 He's just wild.

Luke Thomas 47:45 I mean, you talk about not training for the Ma- or, so excuse me, for the, um, the Gustafsson fight. Buddy, that ain't the only fight he didn't train for.

Joe Rogan 47:52 Yeah! How about what he said to Cormier? "I did coke-"

Luke Thomas 47:54 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:54 "... and I still beat you." (laughs)

Luke Thomas 47:56 And I'm like, "I don't think he's lying."

Joe Rogan 47:57 No!

Luke Thomas 47:57 I mean, the stories I've heard, I don't wanna repeat them-

Joe Rogan 47:59 No.

Luke Thomas 47:59 ... because I cannot verify them.

Joe Rogan 48:00 No.

Luke Thomas 48:01 But I've heard stories, like, if y'all think that was the one fight he just, like, "Oh, I'm gonna take the... I'm gonna pump the brakes this time." No, bitch.

Joe Rogan 48:07 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 48:07 I mean, uh, uh, here's the other part about it. It's like, um, when you... So, who's a guy, for example, who maintained dominance through the game and took, you know, significant amounts of time off in boxing? Floyd Mayweather would be a great example of that.

Joe Rogan 48:18 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 48:19 But Floyd has been training as a family affair from adolescence, right?

Joe Rogan 48:24 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 48:24 For the long part of his life. And he is so gifted that he can take time off, and the game is so developed that people aren't gonna make warp speed development in his absence. And so they got a little bit better every time he took a little bit of time off, like the Maidana first fight with the corkscrew punch.

Joe Rogan 48:38 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 48:39 That was a little bit of a, of a wild, uh, card there. But in general, he was able to maintain that dominance. In MMA, the game changes rapidly.

Joe Rogan 48:46 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 48:47 Super fast, because people are still discovering best practices. In two years, people will not be doing the same kinds of things to the same degree they do now. The calf kick and its explosion-

Joe Rogan 48:56 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 48:56 ... is a, is sort of an obvious example of that. Jon was doing things like not training between camps. I mean, that's something only elite boxers do because they've been doing this since they were five, six years old, and they can take the time to not necessarily do that. Whereas most MMA fighters are like, "I'm a l- I'm a everyday martial artist. I just ramp it up." He would do nothing and then something, and still go out there and beat world fucking champions in what at the time was the UFC's marquee division. That is out of this fucking world bonkers. "I'm gonna train... I'm gonna beat you as, like, a part-time guy?"

Joe Rogan 49:31 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 49:31 What?

Joe Rogan 49:32 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 49:32 It, you just couldn't wrap your head around it.

Joe Rogan 49:34 I wonder if maybe there's some benefit to that. 'Cause it's not like he got totally out of shape, but I wonder if there's some benefit to that in that he's not getting beat up. He's not getting his joints wrecked and, you know. There's-

Luke Thomas 49:46 Probably.

Joe Rogan 49:46 There's, there's a lot of... Yeah, it's a real question of, like, what is, what's the best way to approach it. I mean, we're still trying to figure that out, right? If you go back to the early days of, like, say, like, Hammer House and, like, the Miletich Fighting System guys, like, those guys used to beat the fuck-

Luke Thomas 50:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:01 ... out of each other. Curitiba, Shoot to Box.

Luke Thomas 50:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:03 You know what I'm talking about? Those guys beat the fuck out of each other.

Luke Thomas 50:06 It was ha- it was hazing.

Joe Rogan 50:06 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 50:06 Let's call it what it was, hazing.

Joe Rogan 50:07 Sure. Well, you know, that's a famous, uh, story about BJ Penn. Like, BJ Penn's crew, like, they would just scrap. They would fight. They would get together in the afternoon, they'd beat the shit out of each other, and that would be training. And like, "Whoa." And, you know, that was how everybody did it. And now they realize, like, "Hey, you can't really do that. If you do that, it's gonna really fuck with your longevity."

Luke Thomas 50:32 My, my sense about it is, is, I mean, even then in jujitsu too, like, the old Half Gracie school.

Joe Rogan 50:36 Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah.

Luke Thomas 50:36 Like, you talk to Dave Camarillo or whatever, all those guys back then. I mean, Half, you know...

Joe Rogan 50:40 Savage.

Luke Thomas 50:41 They were not fucking around.

Joe Rogan 50:42 No, not fucking around.

Luke Thomas 50:43 You know, this is not like, "Hey, you wanna get better at self-defense?"

Joe Rogan 50:46 Mm-mm.

Luke Thomas 50:46 Dude, not, not that kind of school. But, um, my, my answer to the question about, like, is it better to do what Jon did? My, my hunch is that there are probably some net benefits to it, right? On balance, there's gonna be some downsides and some upsides. The downsides are gonna be that this development that you might need as a martial artist will be somewhat impeded. However, there'll be some longevity issues you may not have to worry about by consequence. In fact, you look at him, uh, tearing his toe in the Chael Sonnen fight. Now, I fucked up my toe similarly, not, not to the extent where I was through the skin, but, you know, he has a buddy system with the wrap on the toe.

Joe Rogan 51:21 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 51:22 Um, and I had to use the exact same thing for a long time, because e- every... Even now, if I step on my right foot just right, it sends fire through my toe. It hurts like shit, you know?

Joe Rogan 51:31 Yeah, Jon still tapes his toe up.

Luke Thomas 51:32 He still tapes it. And so my point being is, to that extent, he has probably minimized some of the long-term impacts. It's just, he was so far ahead of the game, so naturally talented, so athletic, he could just get away with it.

Joe Rogan 51:46 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 51:46 You could not be average and do what he does.

Joe Rogan 51:48 No.

Luke Thomas 51:48 You have to be very, v-... I mean, the day he fought Shogun. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was either the Bader fight or the Shogun fight. That morning, he chased down a robber.

Joe Rogan 51:56 Shogun fight. Yeah.

Luke Thomas 51:56 Uh, in, in, in Newark, New Jersey.

Joe Rogan 51:58 Newark, New Jersey.

Luke Thomas 51:58 Which is... I had worked there one time. It fucking sucks, okay?

Joe Rogan 52:00 I was born there.

Luke Thomas 52:01 Is that right? Is... You were born in Newark?

Joe Rogan 52:02 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 52:02 Wow, Joe, you've come a long way. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:05 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 52:05 Newark sucks.

Joe Rogan 52:06 Newark sucks.

Luke Thomas 52:07 Uh, uh, anyway, and he, so he chased down a robber there and the whole nine yards. And, you know, I mean, the, just things about distraction and blah, blah, blah.

Joe Rogan 52:16 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 52:16 And it had zero impact on him. And he fucked... And everyone wants to say, by the way, I don't know if you follow closely MMA Twitter. I'm a little bit more, you know, in the weeds on that kind of thing, uh, by virtue of my media placement. Everyone wants to say, "Oh, Shogun was washed." Motherfucker, he was the belt holder at the time Jon took it.

Joe Rogan 52:34 (clapping hands) Yeah, he just knocked out Lyoto Machida.

Luke Thomas 52:35 What the fuck are you talking about? Was that prime Shogun-

Joe Rogan 52:38 No.

Luke Thomas 52:38 ... from, uh, the, the 2005 middleweight tournament in Pride? No. But was he some kind of washed afterthought? What the fuck? What kind of revisionist nonsense is this?

Joe Rogan 52:48 He was one of the best fighters in the world.

Luke Thomas 52:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 52:50 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 52:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 52:50 The, it's, it's hard to say he was washed up. Just 'cause Jon comes along... First of all, Jon opens up with a flying knee. Who the fuck does that? You know, what young kid... uh, what was he, 23? Right?

Luke Thomas 53:01 I- if, if that.

Joe Rogan 53:02 23? He opens with a flying knee on a legend. (laughs)

Luke Thomas 53:07 I- you, you almost watch it, and here's what he really did at the time. He was just disrespectful.

Joe Rogan 53:11 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 53:11 Not like in the "fuck you" kind of sense, but like, "I'm gonna fight you in a way where, like, all these stories that they told me about you?"

Joe Rogan 53:16 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 53:17 "It's like the buzzing of flies to me."

Joe Rogan 53:19 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 53:19 You know?

Joe Rogan 53:19 Didn't matter. He was so confident. He just was a, a guy who, first of all...... when you look at just the genetics in his family are phenomenal. His father is a massive man. Both of his brothers are NFL players. Uh, uh, elite NFL players. There's just tremendous athletes in the house. And then, they grew up together. If you watch guys who grew up with athletic brothers-

Luke Thomas 53:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:45 ... like, they all beat the fuck out of each other, right? Like Matt Hughes and Mark Hughes, they beat each other's asses. Like, that is the ca- like Joe Lauzon and Dan Lauzon beating-

Luke Thomas 53:52 Right.

Joe Rogan 53:52 ... each other's asses. There's so many examples of guys growing up with tough brothers, and they are fucking hardened, you know, by the time they get into the Octagon. This is just, like, there's, there's so many of them like that. I think there's something to that.

Luke Thomas 54:06 Right.

Joe Rogan 54:06 Having two bad motherfuckers as brothers and, like, constantly competing with each other, I think-

Luke Thomas 54:12 Does ... But it doesn't also say something that, like, okay, uh, Nogueira exception aside-

Joe Rogan 54:16 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 54:16 ... most of the brother tandems or even the sister tandems, one is clearly better than the other, though. Like Matt better than Mark-

Joe Rogan 54:23 Right.

Luke Thomas 54:24 ... Valentina, Antonina.

Joe Rogan 54:24 Joe better than Dan.

Luke Thomas 54:25 Joe better than Dan.

Joe Rogan 54:26 Right.

Luke Thomas 54:27 The Nogueira brothers, I might say that, uh, uh, Big Nog a little bit better than Little Nog, although Little Nog was pretty fucking great, you know? It wasn't, like, a tremendous difference. But in general, usually one, like, kinda, kinda puts it on the other one for-

Joe Rogan 54:41 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 54:41 ... a little bit, you know?

Joe Rogan 54:41 Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Well, sometimes that is what makes a really tough fighter too, like, um, Chris Weidman's story, him, him and his brother. His brother used to beat his ass, and his brother was bullying him, and Chris Weidman became a fucking savage 'cause he was just so tough from dealing with his fucking brother. You know? Like-

Luke Thomas 54:57 Whoa. Do you, do you have any siblings?

Joe Rogan 54:58 I only have a sister.

Luke Thomas 54:59 Oh, forgive my ignorance. I have a brother. Um, (laughs) not the same kinda thing. My brother was a super hardcore, uh, academic nerd, and so I don't have any ... Like, I, like I have a brother and, like, you're telling me these stories, and it's like, that is so divorced from, like (laughs) , my reality from having a, a, a brother as a sibling, you know?

Joe Rogan 55:17 Really, we're st- uh, we're talking about, like, a, a lack of observation. Like, parents should be there, like, "Hey, you fucks."

Luke Thomas 55:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:23 "Stop beating each other up." Like, just separate or, you know, probably parents didn't have the time or the, uh-

Luke Thomas 55:29 There's only so much you can do-

Joe Rogan 55:30 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 55:30 ... when you've got-

Joe Rogan 55:31 Oh, yeah.

Luke Thomas 55:31 You, could you imagine if you had Arthur Jones, Chandler Jones, and Jon Jones-

Joe Rogan 55:35 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 55:35 ... in the backseat of the car and they wanna slap each other? The fuck are you gonna do?

Joe Rogan 55:38 (laughs) What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? I mean, that's some fucking-

Luke Thomas 55:41 So-

Joe Rogan 55:41 ... powerful genetics.

Luke Thomas 55:41 ... so, so I don't know if, I don't know if Arthur is still in, uh, the NFL. I think he is out now. I don't know if he still is in there. But his brother on the right is Chandler. Uh, Chandler, I don't know if you follow him. You, I don't, you, you don't watch team sports, right?

Joe Rogan 55:53 No.

Luke Thomas 55:53 You're missing out, Joe. You got, I gotta get-

Joe Rogan 55:55 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 55:55 ... I gotta get you on it.

Joe Rogan 55:55 I got too much to do.

Luke Thomas 55:56 I f- I hear you. I hear you. Chandler is, like, a legitimate multiple time All-Pro.

Joe Rogan 56:01 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 56:01 He is the fucking man. Um, he's at the little bit of the latter stage of his career at this point. Obviously, uh, they're all kind of aging a little bit.

Joe Rogan 56:09 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 56:10 But Chandler of the three ... Well, I, I guess, well, Jon had a great career, but of the two in the NFL, Arthur had a, had a good career, I think that you could say, but Chandler is, I mean, primo time.

Joe Rogan 56:20 And Arthur trains quite a bit.

Luke Thomas 56:22 Yes.

Joe Rogan 56:23 Uh-

Luke Thomas 56:23 He was a wrestler for a lo- for a time. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:24 I wonder if he's thought about fighting in MMA now that he's not doing NFL anymore.

Luke Thomas 56:28 I mean, he's probably a better athlete. He, you know, again, he doesn't, like, you know, he's got the-

Joe Rogan 56:33 Right.

Luke Thomas 56:33 ... Paul Buontello syndrome a little bit where they don't look like it, you know?

Joe Rogan 56:35 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 56:36 But I bet he can go in there and fuck people up.

Joe Rogan 56:37 Well, Fedor had that-

Luke Thomas 56:38 Right. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:39 ... better than anybody, I mean-

Luke Thomas 56:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:40 ... arguably the greatest heavyweight of all time. And then the second, I mean, the other two besides, uh, Stipe is Cain, who also didn't have the best-

Luke Thomas 56:48 Didn't have the-

Joe Rogan 56:48 ... spot in the world.

Luke Thomas 56:48 Although Cain, he looks menacing.

Joe Rogan 56:51 Oh, his face, yeah.

Luke Thomas 56:51 You know what I mean? He's got a big ass fucking head too, you know?

Joe Rogan 56:53 Yeah. Looks hard as fuck. I, I rewatched, um, Cain versus Junior 3 the other day. Goddamn it, that's hard to watch. That's hard to watch.

Luke Thomas 57:03 He changed-

Joe Rogan 57:04 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 57:04 ... to JBS. He changed him.

Joe Rogan 57:06 Yeah, he changed him. He changed him. It's hard to watch.

Luke Thomas 57:07 You ever seen, uh, there's this documentary, um, um, I think it's called The Season, but if I'm getting it wrong, I know your listeners are gonna fucking kill me if I get it wrong. I forget the exact name, but they ... You know Steve Mocco? He's the ATT wrestling coach.

Joe Rogan 57:19 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 57:19 Or at least he was. I'm not sure exactly who he was. He was for a long time. (laughs) Steve Mocco's hilarious. At one time, spe- speaking of Jon Jones, Jon was fighting Glover in Baltimore, and Steve definitely did not want me to interview him, but he didn't say no. I was like, "Steve, can I get a couple, you know, seconds with you?" Whatever. And I stuck a microphone in his face, and I'm like, "So, you know, specifically what kind of strategies around, uh, Glover have you trained here?" He's like, "You know, some particular strategies around Glover for Jon." Like, he would just literally repeat the exact words back to me. Four questions in, I'm like, "You don't wanna do this." He's like, "I don't wanna do this." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:50 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 57:51 It's like, you could've said that up front. Anyway.

Joe Rogan 57:53 What ... Jon has a issue with you? You guys have a-

Luke Thomas 57:56 Well, uh-

Joe Rogan 57:56 ... weird thing?

Luke Thomas 57:56 ... well, real, real quickly, I'll tell you real quickly-

Joe Rogan 57:58 'Cause there was a funny time where he says-

Luke Thomas 57:59 Yeah, yeah. He fucking, he sent me to hell in a press conference once.

Joe Rogan 58:01 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 58:01 But real quickly, um, when it comes to Steve Mocco, Steve was ... He wrestled at Oklahoma and then Iowa, or in, I think Iowa first and Oklahoma, and they had, I think it was ESPN had done a documentary, and they had gone to ... You know, Iowa wrestling is, like, you know, if not ... Penn State is now the best program in the country be- and has been for some time 'cause of Cael Sanderson and the recruiting and then the great work that they've done. But in general, for a long time, Iowa is sort of one of these titans of college wrestling. And they asked Steve Mocco, "As a college student, why do you like wrestling?" Like, "Why do you wanna compete so hard?" He's like, "Because when I really win and I dominate, I change people. They're not the same after I get done with them. They realize they're not who they think they are, and I'm everything that they feared I would be."

Joe Rogan 58:40 Whoa.

Luke Thomas 58:41 Whoa. And it's like, and he is-

Joe Rogan 58:42 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 58:42 And he is dead fucking serious about it. So anyway, that was the thing about Steve Mocco. So when I put a m- microphone in his face, it was-

Joe Rogan 58:48 That's an amazing quote.

Luke Thomas 58:48 ... kinda funny. But about Jon, so I don't know what the issue is, candidly. I actually ... What basically ended up happening was he ... I had a good, I had a very good relationship with him and his management for a long time, and I still have a decent relationship with his management, but, uh, uh, he had ... So the fight back with Cormier at 214, I think it was, whatever the number was, the rematch, he had a press conference. He had a shaved head, and he was in a mood, you know? And I'd asked him some totally f- softball, innocuous question, and to the public he goes, um, "You know, Luke, I don't like you, so I'm not gonna answer your question," was the thing, right?

Joe Rogan 59:21 Right. Yeah, yeah.

Luke Thomas 59:21 And it was a shock to me because his coach, Brandon Gibson, I'm, like, very tight with, you know, and a bunch of other people, and they didn't know either. In fact, I talked to his manager, Malki, at the time. I met him at The Host hotel-... and I go, "Bro, what the fuck was that?" Like, it was totally out of nowhere. He's like, he's like, you know, you know Malki, right? You ever talk to him?

Joe Rogan 59:38 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 59:38 He's like, he's like, "I don't know." He's like, "But you got a big mouth. That's your problem. You got a big mouth." And I was like, "Well, okay, but what specifically was the issue?" He didn't know. And, uh, and, uh, I didn't get a chance to follow up with Jon, obviously, and Brandon Gibson didn't know. No- nobody fucking knew. So here's my hunch. My hunch is that we were reasonably in good terms, then he had all those fuck-ups where, you know, he got into the car accident and everything else. And I probably said something he didn't like.

Joe Rogan 1:00:05 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 1:00:05 And I just, it's not, they don't tell you, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:00:08 Yeah.

Luke Thomas 1:00:08 They don't call you up and be like, "I'm really mad at you." They just wait till some other opportunity.

Joe Rogan 1:00:12 I, I had, I had a discussion with Jon where he was, uh, he was thinking, like, "Why did I go bad on him?" Like, "What was I saying?" Well, 'cause one of the things that I said that I, I speculated that maybe one of the reasons why he was behaving the way he was behaving was P- was, was CTE. And, uh, I, I still kind of stand by that. I think, um, one of the things that happens with CTE, and not that I think Jon should get out of the game, d- I'm not saying this at all, but I'm, I'm saying that there's a inevitable consequence of getting hit in the head, right? We've seen the video of Jon getting pulled over drunk driving and he says, "I forget a lot of things-"

Luke Thomas 1:00:47 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:47 ... "I get hit in the head for a living." There, there's an inevitalcon- inevitable consequence of getting punched in the head where fighters experience some sort of negative effect of it, and some of them become very impulsive. It's just one of the side effects of, of head trauma. And e- even head trauma that's, like, acceptable, they get impulsive. They, they, they do wild shit. I mean, they do more wild shit.

Luke Thomas 1:01:12 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:12 They have a harder, uh, it's harder for them to control their impulses.

Luke Thomas 1:01:16 Well, in the case of Jon, I don't, um, as it relates to my interaction with him, and I hold no ill will, believe it or not, because frankly, I, I almost prefer that, you know? Because here's what ends up happening. Y- y- y- (laughs) So-

Joe Rogan 1:01:29 If you get too friendly, then you, you could-

Luke Thomas 1:01:31 Not, not even that, it's-

Joe Rogan 1:01:32 ... just hold back.

Luke Thomas 1:01:32 A little bit, but that, that's, uh, that's less my issue. Like, I, I always tell fighters, like, "I'm not your friend, but I'm definitely not your enemy."

Joe Rogan 1:01:38 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 1:01:38 Like, you have to understand that. Like, I, I mean this truly. You cannot work in MMA media, you cannot work in MMA media, it is not possible to do the job correctly, such as the job can be done correctly, which I'm not even sure that's even true anymore. But if, if you don't understand that the fighter doesn't owe you anything and that the fighter is, uh, uniquely disadvantaged relative to the power structures inside MMA, you cannot do the job effectively. You cannot. So to the extent that he gets mad, he's okay. Does he wanna answer? He doesn't, he does not, he does not have to answer my question. I'd have fucking preferred a different result, you know? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:16 Right. Than him saying he doesn't like you.

Luke Thomas 1:02:18 Than him saying it at a press conference.

Joe Rogan 1:02:19 (laughs)

Luke Thomas 1:02:19 I mean, I was like, "Jesus, all right, there's a better way to handle this." But, but at the end, it's like, you know, uh, I, I can't tell you how many fighters get mad at me and then won't talk.

Joe Rogan 1:02:28 Mm-hmm.

Luke Thomas 1:02:28 And, like, I've had intermediaries reach out and be like, "Hey man," like, "what's the issue?" And they won't even tell their friend intermediaries, who are often coaches, fighters, blah, blah, blah. Dude, they're incredibly sensitive, and which I understand, uh, and they're incredibly, you know, they, they don't suffer shit gladly, which I also understand. But it's like, I've got a job to do. Y- you think I can watch somebody do the shit that Jon was doing at the time in his life and just, like, constantly re- reflexively defend all of it? It's not possible. I have to, I have a job to do. So if he doesn't like that, that's okay. But, um, you know, what, what am I... Like, if that causes a, a division, then that causes a division. There's nothing I can do about that, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:03:06 Well, I think fighting is uniquely personal, right? It's not like calling, like, saying Bill Buckner's a loser because he let that ball go between his legs. It's a different thing.