How to unlock your product leadership skills | Ken Norton, Ex-Google

1. 0:00 – 3:10

   What to expect in this episode with Ken Norton

   1. KNKen Norton0:00

      Part of what I think is pretty exciting about product management is, you are a leader from day one in product management, right? And- and, you know, there's leadership all over the place, but that's sort of your job. You're a leader. You don't- you don't have any formal authority, but you're a leader. You're expected to lead.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky0:20

      (Instrumental music) Over his 14-year career at Google, Ken Norton led product teams that built Google Docs, Google Calendar, Google Maps, and even did a stint at Google Ventures. The products that he's helped craft are now used by over three billion people. Today, Ken is a full-time executive coach specializing at working with product leaders. And in our conversation, we cover the creative versus reactive mindset, why the art of product management is much more important than the science of product management, how to get over imposter syndrome, the most common PM blind spots, how to find a coach, and how to know if a coach is right for you, and so much more. I hope that you enjoy this episode with Ken Norton. If you're setting up your analytic stack but you're not using Amplitude, what are you doing? Amplitude is the number one most popular analytic solution in the world, used by both big companies like Shopify, Instacart, and Atlassian, and also most tech startups. Amplitude has everything you need, including a powerful and fully self-service analytics product, an experimentation platform, and even an integrated customer data platform to help you understand your users like never before. Give your teams self-service product data to understand your users, drive conversions, and increase engagement, growth, and revenue. Ditch your vanity metrics, trust your data, work smarter, and grow your business. Try Amplitude for free. Just visit amplitude.com to get started. Have you heard of Lenny's Job Board? Well, if you're hiring or open to a new gig, have I got the site for you. Lennysjobs.com. If you're a hiring manager, sign up and get access to hundreds of hand-curated people who are open to new opportunities. Thousands of people apply, and I personally review and accept just 10% of them to be part of this collective. You won't find a better place to hire product managers and growth people. And if you're someone who's looking around for something new, join the collective. It's free, you can be anonymous and hide yourself from any company. You can also leave anytime. And you'll only hear from companies that you want to hear from. Check out lenysjobs.com to learn more. Welcome to the podcast, Ken. I am so honored to have you here. You're such a legend of product managers and product management circles. Your writing has had so much influence on so many people, including myself. And if nothing else, you've led to many donuts being purchased by tech companies over the years.

   3. KNKen Norton2:57

      (laughs)

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky2:57

      So, thanks for being here.

   5. KNKen Norton2:59

      Well, thank you and thanks for having me. Feeling's mutual. Obviously a big fan of your work and all the things you've done for the community and- and this podcast, which has been fantastic. So, humbled

2. 3:10 – 5:05

   Why Ken will never get tired of donuts

   1. KNKen Norton3:10

      and e- excited to be here. And yes, I- I- I do think that I'm at least maybe partially responsible for the- at least a lot of consumption o- of donuts over these years.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky3:19

      Are you tired of people asking you about donuts?

   3. KNKen Norton3:22

      I'll never get tired of it.

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky3:23

      (laughs)

   5. KNKen Norton3:25

      Back when- when ... Well, back when we met with people in person, you know, people would bring me donuts and- and never got tired of it. And nor did any of the people that I worked with who- who got to eat those donuts get tired of it. So no.

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky3:36

      (laughs)

   7. KNKen Norton3:36

      No. I'll never get tired of donuts.

   8. LRLenny Rachitsky3:38

      Uh, someone on Twitter asked, what's- what's like a digital equivalent of bringing the donuts now that we're kind of in a remote world? Do you have any advice on that?

   9. KNKen Norton3:48

      That's a great question. I don't ... I- I'm not even sure if the physical equivalent of donuts is donuts. I mean, when- when I- when I came up with that, I think it was really to- to be a metaphor around being sort of a servant leader, bringing, you know, whatever needs to be done. Sort of filling the white space, filling in the gaps, um, whatever sort of needed to happen. So, it's not- doesn't always have to be donuts. Um, I- I did put that question out to some of the readers of my newsletter a while ago, maybe early in the pandemic, and got a lot of really interesting ideas. And, um, maybe that was at a place where people had a little bit more patience for happy hours over Zoom and stuff like that. Maybe that patience has worn out. The- the idea that I love the most was- was actual donuts. There was- it was a PM who, um, got DoorDash codes and found local- the best local donut place for each of the people on the team and basically sent them a code and said, "Click here and order the donuts to come to your house whenever you want them." So, um, maybe at least partially the digital equivalent of donuts might be actual donuts.

   10. LRLenny Rachitsky4:49

       (laughs) Decentralized donuts.

   11. KNKen Norton4:51

       Decentralized donuts on the blockchain. Yeah. (laughs)

   12. LRLenny Rachitsky4:55

       (laughs) Oh boy. Let's not go there. Um-

   13. KNKen Norton4:57

       (laughs) I don't know what that is.

   14. LRLenny Rachitsky4:59

       So, I was perusing your career path ahead of this chat (clears throat) , and you had this pretty wild career.

3. 5:05 – 8:00

   Ken’s career path and what he does with executive coaching now

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky5:05

      Uh, you were an engineer initially and then you were CTO at, uh, a part of NBC, then you were a founder, and then you spent 14 years at Google working on products that folks may have heard of, like Google Docs and Google Calendar and Google Maps. And you've also done a bunch of writing. And then more recently, you've become a full-time executive coach focusing on product people. I have so many questions I'd love to ask about your career and learnings along the way, and the writing, but, um, I'd actually love to spend most of our time talking about the coaching and things that you've learned through that experience. And so, I have a couple questions just off the bat. What does an executive coach actually do? Like, what kinds of things are you helping people with? What does a session look like? And then, two, just how did you decide you wanted to be a coach full time after leaving Google?

   2. KNKen Norton5:50

      Yeah. Um, that's a great question. And, you know, I think coaching does mean a lot of different things. I mean, it sort of depends on who you talk to. It is- it is a little bit of a-... uh, kind of who you, who you are, your style, your approach. Some people are calling themselves coaches doing more mentoring, more advice. Other people are maybe more like me, more peer coaching. You know, to me, I, I see executive coaching as a partnership, or, like, creative partnership, and it's all about helping my client reach their goals, their potential, whatever that, whatever that means to them. Right? So, important thing about coaching is the definition of success does belong to the client. I don't have an agenda. I don't have a set of things I'm trying to share, teach, learn. It really is fundamentally up to them, which means every client is, is completely different and they have different sense of where they want to go, um, different barriers that might be standing in their way. I ... My coaching practice, I, I coach the whole person, so there is no restriction on what we might talk on, what we might work on together. It's not limited to products, not even limited to work or even leadership. Um, it's wherever they want to go, whatever, you know, change, transformation means to them. Um, you know, as coaches, we bring a bunch of tools to the conversation. I, you know ... The most important ones, honestly, are probably listening and curiosity, intuition, open-mindedness. Um, really there to sort of help challenge them to see things in different ways, help them tap into their imagination, figure out when there might be underlying beliefs, help them connect dots that need to be connected, help them disconnect things that feel connected. There's a lot of, sort of, exploration to it. Um, I- it's very jazz-like. I- I've r- I ... My love of jazz has, has been shared before, but there is a sort of improvisation to it. And, and what coaching is really powerful is you may not necessarily know where you're going when you start, and you sort of follow wherever there is meaning and change for, for that individual, wherever it is they want to go. Um, and the question around, like, what brought me into it, was, was actually kind of interesting.

4. 8:00 – 12:02

   What Ken learned from his own executive coach[

   1. KNKen Norton8:00

      And, and as I, honestly working with my own executive coach, started to figure out what it is that mattered to me, what I liked, what my values were, what my purpose was, started to unpack that I love deeply connecting with people and I love helping people change and grow. And the moments when I had the opportunity to do that as a manager, as a product leader, were the most fulfilling parts of my career. And so I started to h- unpack that and figure out, what would it look like if that was what I did? And the other part of the journey was, uh, for several years at Google, I worked at GV, it's Google Ventures, Google's, uh, venture capital arm, and I had the opportunity to work with, with founders and product leaders in the portfolio. And I started to sort of simultaneously recognize the, the shortcomings of giving advice, 'cause it seemed like, you know, well, I can meet with these folks, I could tell them what I did, I could tell them what Google w- did, and that'll sort of answer all their questions. And you start to realize, advice is not super ... not as powerful as you might think it is. Like it's a, it's a little bit like cotton candy. Doesn't have a lot of nutrition and you get a nice sugar high, you feel great, both sides feel happy, but then, sort of a couple of weeks later, a couple of months later, nothing's really changed. And, and that's because it doesn't often confront the real problem. It often haven't, uh, isn't relevant. Like, what worked for us at Google may not have worked anywhere else. Um, it may not even have worked at Google for all I know. I, I feel like there were years at Google where all we were doing was making things worse by showing up, and we should just all have gone sat on a beach somewhere and life would have (laughs) -

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky9:38

      (laughs)

   3. KNKen Norton9:39

      ... the company would have grown even faster, so who knows? Um, and so it was sort of these, this twi- you know, kind of twin pillars of wanting to figure out where I could do what I liked the most, and then also recognizing that where growth comes from is less around advice and sort of telling people what to do, and more about sort of helping them figure out their own path, their own way. Um, and then that ultimately, you know, sort of brought me into, hey, I want to do this full time. And, and that's what I've been doing ever since.

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky10:08

      When do you find people come to you to get advice and coaching? What kind of like ... What kind of clients do you find you end up working with?

   5. KNKen Norton10:16

      That's a great question. I ... Generally speaking, I work with senior product leaders, however you want to define that. Typically, these are chief product officers, VPs of product at startups, um, largely director level and above at, at big, bigger tech companies. Um, some CEOs, other C-level execs in there. I think really anyone that sort of considers themself in a product leadership role. Um, often they come to me because they're at a ... there's a career milestone or a crossroads. Um, and it could be that they've now find themselves in the position of being a CPO for the first time. Um, maybe there's a new in- you know, industry change or they've gone from a, a big company to a startup and sort of a- have this sense of, "You know, what got me here isn't gonna get me there." And that's oftentimes when they reach out for coaching. Um, and, and I think f- ... My clients are also very introspective and, and surrounded by great mentors and advisors and have all sorts of people in their life who can help them, but are realizing that a lot of the work is gonna be internal work that's gonna get them to the next level. And so this sort of transformation is gonna be just as much what I need to do as who I am. And that's often when, when people come to me.

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky11:35

      You said that (clears throat) a lot of coaching is, is ... Or the way you coach is about the whole person, and I'm curious, I don't know if there's an answer to this, but when people come to get help and coaching, how much of their, uh, un- uh, blocks, I guess, are like rooted in, you know, their regular life and versus, like, skills, technical skills, and, and more like the PME product leadership side? If that makes sense. (laughs)

   7. KNKen Norton12:00

      Yeah. I think ... Well,

5. 12:02 – 16:20

   Driving a car and the metaphor of learning a new skill

   1. KNKen Norton12:02

      hmm.Let me, maybe try to il- illustrate this with a example from my, my, my life right now. Um, and, and if you'll indulge me, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go a little bit afield here, but I promise it'll-

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky12:13

      Let's do it.

   3. KNKen Norton12:14

      ... come back. Um, so w- we are teaching our 16-year-old son how to drive, so he just got his driver's permit. Um, do you remember when you learned how to drive, Lenny?

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky12:25

      I do, yep.

   5. KNKen Norton12:27

      Yeah. Yeah. So, it's, uh, it's scary. I don't know if you, you know how your, your parents might have felt but, (laughs) -

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky12:34

      Nope. Do not recall.

   7. KNKen Norton12:34

      ... I know how it is on the other side of it. (laughs) It's a whole new journey. And look, he, you know, he's a smart kid. He's, he's con- you know, he's gonna do great. But it helped me actually think back to when I learned how to drive. And actually, what I think is maybe a little bit more important here is before you learned to drive. And so if you think about it as a ... and when you're a kid, you, just cars just go places. Like, you get strapped in and you, you just wait and you, you get impatient and then eventually you go somewhere, and you're not even consciously aware of the concept of driving. Just cars just happen and you're sort of, you know, not even aware of it. Um, as you get a little bit older you start to become curious, you start to figure out, oh, you know, that wheel has something to do with it. You turn the wheel, maybe you start to understand there's pedals. Um, but it all s- just seems really simple, right? Just like, you get in the car and, and you drive it and you go somewhere. Um, maybe as you get older, you, you, you end up maybe even being a little bit of a smart aleck about how easy it looks. And you start talking to your parents about like, "Ah, it doesn't look hard, I can do this." Now, suddenly you're behind the wheel of the car. This is, this is my, what my son is doing. And wow, is it different than you thought it was gonna be. Right? Is it way more complicated? Um, you have to remember to check your mirrors, you gotta look before you turn, you didn't even, you didn't even know what that sign meant, you didn't know what those stripes meant. It is just overloading with complication. And your b- your sort of internal mindset for confronting this challenge is not gonna suit you, right? The way you used to sort of approach the world. Um, and maybe put it in, like, product leadership, product terms, everyone around you's got some real pithy advice about the things you're forgetting to do, (laughs) and sort of like, "Hey, you forgot, don't forget to check your mirror." Um, everyone's got a framework, right? (laughs) It's like, you know, "Ah, do you know about the ten and two framework?" "Wait, what's the ten and two framework?" "Oh, you just put your left hand on the ten, your right hand on the two o'clock. That's, that's the only thing you're missing. Here's, here's a great, you know, Medium post about that." And then you're like, that's not the pro- this is, this ... The problem is I might ... I have not adapted to the, the complexity of the world around me, right? And so there is this sense that, you know, what is interesting about driving is the world hasn't gotten any more complex. Like, driving's always been driving. But now your place in the world has shifted such that the internal meaning-making and self-complexity that is required requires a complete reboot of the op- of the internal operating system in order to allow you to, to thrive there. And so, you know, the, when you, when you talk about this kind of question of, you know, how much of this is skills, how much of this is tactics, how much of this is learning versus how much is internal growth? The answer is it's both, but the shift that is required is very much around how your inner self can m- make meaning and respond to the demands of the world around you so that you can succeed and thrive in this sort of, this mindset shift that happens. Um, you know, the skills matter, but by this point you're sort of beyond the place where you've learned the skills. There's mastering the skills, but there is the sense of, um, you know, what developmental psychologists call, you know, sort of self-complexity, the ability to sort of respond and adapt to that. And so I think a ... we go through a lot of those shifts in our career, right? The driving example is simple. Um, actually probably too simple because the world is actually getting more complex for those of us that work in product. I mean, every day something changes. It forces us to, to respond and adapt. So, there aren't even rules of the road in product. Um, but I, I think this is sort of what we're talking about, this question of

6. 16:20 – 19:41

   How Ken’s helping leaders shift their mindset

   1. KNKen Norton16:20

      the internal operating system I've developed and my ability to, to restructure it such that it c- I can succeed given the demands that have been placed upon me.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky16:31

      What an am- amazing analogy. Uh, (laughs) totally hits home, uh, in a good and bad way. This is a, it's a really good segue to something I wanted to chat about, something that we, we talked about before the recording, which is, uh, what you're finding to be one of the bigger unlocks for your clients, and it's also a concept that you've been spending a lot of time refining, and you're finding it's helping people shift a- uh, and specifically around shift their, um, leadership mindset. And so I'd love to just hear you-

   3. KNKen Norton16:58

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky16:58

      ... talk through your thinking there.

   5. KNKen Norton17:00

      Yeah. It, it, it does sort of lead into this, and you know, maybe another analogy that might, that might work for your listeners, if you think about, you know, product management, your, the, you know, your career arc and sort of where you are challenged from a mindset perspective. You know, in some ways it does feel like the, the early part of your career, you're learning to play a video game. Right? There's a, hopefully there's a tutorial. Like, your first job is, you know, sort of learning the ropes. Somebody's teaching you. You maybe have managers that are, you know, giving you simple little missions that you can succeed at and if you fail, the consequences aren't bad. And you sort of like, it does feel like a little bit ... And I've talked to, you know, I felt this way, well, talked to a lot of people earlier in their career, it does feel like you're trying to learn the rules of the game, trying to figure out the physics, and you want to run up the score and you get better at playing the game. You know, you fail but you start to be, develop some confidence that when you fail, you'll learn from it and you'll get better. Um, you get really good at the game, right? You get promoted, you get rewarded, you unlock new levels, teach other people how to play the game. You start to feel really awesome about yourself-Um, but then suddenly you're put in a place where you realize that the rules of the game aren't so black and white. There's a, you know, maybe there's like, there's this, there's a long delay now between when you get to see what you did and from, the score of it. Um, things start to behave in unexpected ways. Um, the physics start to get weird. You're on a level where you're floating. I don't know what the right metaphor is here. But you start to recognize that this, there's been this huge change. And the most frightening part about it is you look around and everyone is looking at you like you're the designer of the game, and you thought you were playing. And that's often what it feels like when you, when you move into a leadership role and, you know, to come back to this sort of sense of like, what got me here is not gonna get me there. And, and sometimes, you know, I work with a lot of leaders and sometimes that's come with like a pretty significant cost, right? This, this, this juxtaposition, you know, maybe your happiness, your health, your marriage. There's, there's been this sort of existential crisis of, I don't know if I love this anymore. Maybe it leads to burnout. Maybe it's not even that dire. It's just a sense of like, well, I'm looking around and I need to be something, I need to unlock something else to, to continue on this, on this path. And, and there is a sense of sort of stuckness that, that comes from that. And, um, what I've come to realize is this is, uh, the precipice of a, I think this a pretty fundamental concept in, in leadership. And I'm not the, you know, I, I'm not the originator of this. So this has come up again and again and again.

7. 19:41 – 22:15

   Creative vs reactive leadership mindset

   1. KNKen Norton19:41

      It's not new. It's gonna sound familiar. It's not even, it's like the, the flood myth from Gilgamesh showing up in, you know, all this sort of oral histories of the world, right? It's not new. Um, Conscious Leadership Group, a organization that I'm, I'm big fan of, they call it above the line versus below the line. Um, Brene Brown calls it daring versus armored leadership, sage versus warrior. Even in the world of sports, there's like playing to win versus playing not to lose. It is sort of this concept that's come up again and again. Uh, and Leadership Circle calls it creative versus reactive. And that's the term I'm gonna use. I like that. And here's the, the distinction. Very simple. Are you responding to the world from a place of fear where you see problems and threats? Um, you wanna be right, you wanna be liked, you're defensive, sort of in- inward approach. Or are you responding to the world from a place of openness, possibility, curiosity, passion, growth, purpose, right? Very simple concept. Pretty much ev- everyone understands it immediately, right? Makes sense. Everyone also then immediately says a couple different things. "That sounds amazing. I'd rather d- I'd rather have that," or, "Here are moments when I felt that." Um, but that's usually followed up by a couple of questions. "I don't know if that works." (laughs) "Doesn't sound very effective. Is it pos- you know, is it p- is it, is it possible?" And then, "How do you, you know, how do you do that?" And the effective part is, is as actually a question we can answer, which is yes, it is, it is more effective. Um, it was, uh, Bob Anderson, Bill Adams are two management scientists, um, who've, who've written extensively, done a whole bunch of research and, um, they have looked at every possible dimension you can imagine of success, both leadership capability. They've looked at, you know, revenue, brand, uh, you know, profitability, everything. And it's shown, yes, create, this creative form of leadership is in every possible way, positively correlated with success and reactive leadership is, is negatively correlated. So yes, it works. Um, yet according to their reshirt- research, some 70, 75% of leaders are primarily operating reactively. So most leaders

8. 22:15 – 33:50

   How your underlying beliefs impact your leadership style

   1. KNKen Norton22:15

      are, are operating the, from a place of fear, reacting, seeing problems and threats. And that's because that other question of how do you do it is such a hard one (laughs) to answer. Um, and it's not an easy thing that you seem to kind of flip a switch of. And it sort of goes back to this notion of like redesigning that internal operating system, sort of how you confront the world, how you, what underlying belief systems and assumptions you have that are causing you to operate from that place.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky22:44

      Can I ask you a quick question just to clarify-

   3. KNKen Norton22:46

      Yeah.

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky22:46

      ... the two sides? What's, what's kind of a sign that you're in the reactive side of things? I, I think one thing you said is you're worrying a lot about how people think about you.

   5. KNKen Norton22:56

      Yeah.

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky22:56

      And make sure that they like you. Is there anything else that's like gonna tell a listener like, oh, maybe I'm falling into this trap?

   7. KNKen Norton23:03

      Yeah. The, you're, you've nailed it, which is that fear, like operating from a place of anxiety, right? Um, there are different ways depending on our, our mindsets, our s- our approaches. I, I like the word postures 'cause it, it seems to, to click different sort of ways that we retreat into this reactive mode. Um, fear anxiety is the way, right? It's sort of like, that's how you know. You're just like, ugh, uh, I'm below, I'm below the line. I'm just like, I'm, I, I'm seeing problems, I'm seeing threats. Um, our h- our brains are hardwired to do that, right? So it's not like that's wrong. Um, these are brains that w- that learn to do that, you know, I don't know, in the, on the tundra, like being chased by, by wild animals, right? So this is, this is our, this is our, our normal way of being. There might be different desires and needs that force you to, to operate that way. You know, we, we think of there's really sort of three, three of these postures and anybody is probably more than one of them. So this is not pathologizing this and putting you in a box. But one, probably one of these will resonate more than the others.... wanting to- to be approved, wanting to be loved, wanting other people to like you. All right, this was me, in my early part of my career.

   8. LRLenny Rachitsky24:23

      Same.

   9. KNKen Norton24:23

      Um, yeah. So this is, you know, you kind of like heart type, right? It's sort of what's sometimes called move toward other people. Um, a lot of that came from my environment, right? I was coming up with product management. No one necessarily knew what the job even was, and I had no authority, and most people could just ignore me if they wanted to. And so I sort of had to meet other people's expectations, please them, want to be accepted by them, seek their approval. And it was- it was sort of this, what we call complying approach. And here this is why this is so vexing, is that it actually worked really well, (laughs) right? It was pretty effective. Other people liked working with me. I listened to them, and I sort of, uh, considered everyone's needs and- and- and made sure everyone felt heard. But there came a point where I started to- it- like I gave away so much power that, you know, it was- it was hurting me when it come- comes to purpose and- and- and execution and decisiveness. And so again, these aren't- these aren't bad. There's under- usually underlying tendencies that are very good. It just starts to have a cost as you- as you become more senior. It's like the g- the gears start to kind of grind to a halt a little bit. Um, another way is a more of a needing to be right, sort of head type, protecting one's ide- own ideas. Um, sometimes called a- a move away from type, distance, arrogance, criticism, sort of retreating into your own ideas and head. And then the other is, you know, will- will not be a surprise is the more controlling, you know, my way or the highway, autocratic, will move against, wanting to win, wanting to be number one, wanting to excel, sort of wanting dominance, wanting control. This would be another tendency. Um, often one of those feels natural to you, and- and another one feels just so comple- credibly distasteful that you can't imagine possibly operating that way, and this goes into sort of the underlying beliefs part. You'd asked m- you know, if you had told me early in my career when you saw me being passive and people-pleasing like that, "Just yes- you just gotta stop caring what other people think, Ken. You gotta- you gotta start being, you know- you gotta be more pushy." Um, people did say that to me. That was pretty common probably in my- (laughs) my performance reviews, pretty common. You know, even people who worked for me were like, "You need to push back." My only archetype for doing that was the autocratic, ah, controlling type. I was like, "I don't wanna be like that. That guy's a jerk. He's a- that's a f- that's a fascist. I don't want to be a fascist. I do care about other people." And so most- many of our- our examples and archetypes are these sort of equally ineffective reactive ways of being, and so no wonder I didn't wanna be like that because that's also not very effective either. Yeah. But there was a sense for me of redefining r- you know, this is where coaching is powerful is this, what are the underlying assumptions and beliefs that you have that are causing you to fall back on some of these fundamental ways of operating, um, and not let go of them, right? 'cause the answer for me wasn't, "Stop caring about other people." I wasn't gonna do that. That's a value of mine. It's part of who I am. But take the caring about other people, the empathy, the connection, and direct it in a more creative way where you're operating now from a place of purpose and vision and not reacting and protecting and defending and wanting to be, you know, liked. Um, for- for me, the key to that was letting go of n- needing to be liked and redefining it as- as an admiration that takes place over time. So rather than I want to leave this room with everyone liking me, I started to realize I want to be the type of leader where a decade later people say, "I would work with that guy again in a heartbeat." And that was part of the- the unlock for me. Again, I care about other people. That's- that's a natural sort of gift that underlines it, but it's a redefinition of how that serves me, if that makes sense.

   10. LRLenny Rachitsky28:34

       Say someone's in that first bucket and- and I- I was definitely in that first bucket. Like I-

   11. KNKen Norton28:39

       Yeah.

   12. LRLenny Rachitsky28:39

       ... uh, and I still, like, (laughs) want people to like me, and I still probably have flaws there. But say you're a PM and you're like, "Oh man, that's exactly how I am acting right now." Uh, it sounds like is the core of it just, like, a mindset shift going from I need people to like me to what you just talked about of like, okay, I'm gonna shift to, uh, I just want them to respect me over time, and- and is that kind of the core of it? I know it's probably not that easy, but how- how should someone behave if they're in that bucket right now?

   13. KNKen Norton29:05

       Yeah, it's not- and it sounds easy, right? And- and this is part of what is hard about this is it always sounds easy when you describe it having gone through the journey, right? (laughs) sort of like, you know, eh, you know, talk to somebody on the summit of Mount Everest and they'll be like, "Yeah, you know, well, I just climbed this mountain. That's how I got here." And you're like, "Okay, wait. That's not that easy." Um, and again, it is very individualized. I think there's an appreciation that y- you have to understand what is- what is holding you back, and this is a lot of the work that I'll do with my clients is what is those sort of underlying expectations? What are these underlying beliefs? Um, I believed that my style was incompatible with being a leader, right? I would've said, "I can't be a CEO because, you know, I'm not tough enough," right? Um, "I'm- I'm not- I'm not strong enough. I'm not commanding enough. I- I can't command a room," and it's like, okay, what- what is the underlying belief I'm making about what leadership is there? Right? There's an archetype that I have in my mind that is incompatible with this- this way, and so there's a need to confront that. Okay, what makes you believe the only type of leader is the leader that can- that orders people around?Maybe that's all I've ever seen. Um, maybe I don't believe it's possible to be any other type of leader. Um, maybe there's an inner critic that is, like, convincing me that, that it's not who I am. And so part of it is this sort of redefinition of, what does leadership mean for you, for you authentically? What would it be like in my case to lead with purpose and be decisive and lead with vision and to have other people felt like they're being brought along and listened to and participated and create safe spaces for other people to... Like, that was the sort of question there. Um, and it, and it took people challenging my point of view, it took working with a coach, asking me questions, f-forcing me to see places I'd made connections that the connections don't really need to be made. Um, there's a lot of instruments and tools we work with in coaching. There's three s- 360 degree assessments that are very helpful here that will start to help you understand, hey, here are places where you're operating reactively. Here are places where you're operating really create- creatively. Um, because, by the way, most people are, you know, part- partially somewhere in that journey. It's a developmental process. And to start to be able to get the f- the feedback, the dopamine hit of seeing, when I do it this way, it actually, it's more effective and it doesn't cost me as much and I'm happier and I'm enjoying it and I'm seeing that it's working, um, is oftentimes a big part of this, because there is this disbelief that it won't work. All right? The number of times when I'm with a client in coaching and say, "Well, what if you, what if you did do that?" And they go, "Well, it just won't work." You realize that there is this sort of, this, this wiring in there that needs to... And this is where I talk about this sort of operating system that needs to be rejiggered to start to make sense of, what if it did, and how might you know?

   14. LRLenny Rachitsky32:06

       The point you just made about how, um, you can realize that you can be successful in a lot of different ways and you don't have to be this one archetype of a leader s- really resonates with my experience. I actually had an executive coach for a few months, and that was probably the biggest unlock for me. Um, we did the strengths exercise, which a lot of people do. And the main thing that she helped me see is, like, you can do all the things that you wanna do through the lens of the strengths that you have and not have to force yourself to be good at these other things, because there's many ways to accomplish the same outcomes.

   15. KNKen Norton32:40

       It, that's exactly right. And then y- once you start to understand that, you start to, to develop a better way of finding the right place, the right environment, the right role. Um, you know, wh- when we talked, began the conversation and you asked me what brought me into executive coaching, you know, I would feel these, these sort of... I would, I would describe it as flying too close to the sun in my career, right? Where I would, I would have a team, I'd be managing a small team, I would love it, I would enjoy it, and then suddenly my team would grow, I'd become more senior than I felt comfortable being, and then I felt like I wasn't getting to do the quote/unquote real work anymore, and then I would be d- just completely disheveled and dissatisfied. And then I'd go try to go find a smaller team or even stop being a manager. And, and it was a very meandering, reactive path. It was like I was event- Every so often, I was catching a wave and I knew what it felt like to be on the wave, but I didn't know what the characteristics of the wave were. And then through coaching, I was like, "I love connecting with other people. I like helping people grow. I like helping challenge people. I like, I like helping," right? And then it, and then it was like, what are those parts? What if I unpack those? Oh, that's

9. 33:50 – 39:00

   Mindset and authenticity and their role within leadership

   1. KNKen Norton33:50

      why I loved managing that team of five, because I got to do a lot of it. That's why I hated managing that team of 35, 'cause there's no time for it. And then you start to say, "Okay, well, what if rather than, you know, just randomly meandering through my career, I actually elevated needing to connect, wanting to be helpful." You know, and then you're like, "What would it be like if I went into the helping professions," right? It's, it's a, just a reframing of, you know, move through your career in a way that seems externally to fit some definition of success and to start to define that internally, right? And that is the very definition of the reactive versus creative mindset. Reactive, allowing the world to, to, to set the expectations and try to, try to meet them, versus tap into what your real true sense of purpose and vision is, and then use that to navigate the world.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky34:43

      It's interesting that so much of this is just mindset. It's not like learning a new skill as a leader or product manager. It's, like, just seeing yourself and the world differently, and all of a sudden you kind of unlock your career. Is that, is that what you find?

   3. KNKen Norton34:56

      Absolutely. And, and that's why, you know, I think so much of the focus on the skills, the frameworks, you know, it, it, it can be limited as you, as you develop these, these capabilities, 'cause it's inner work, right? We're talk... What we're, what we're talking about is, this is, this is all on me. Um, now, that's empowering. Um, there's empowerment to be able to say, you know, "I, I want to change something, and it, and it doesn't involve a whole bunch of other people, convincing and persuading 'em, you know, getting into an executive role." This is all me. Uh, but it also, in some ways, makes it harder, because, 'cause it is all you. Um, and this is, you know, in coaching, it's all about you, right? It's all about that, "Who am I and what matters to me? What underlying belief systems, inner voices are, are challenging me in ways that I wanna be challenged? What is my unique, um, authen..." You know, I love the word authenticity. It's like, you know, we were just talking about, like, what is my authentic way to lead? And then how do I, I center that, rather than trying to fit in to someone else's definition of what leadership might be? And you may, you may recognize, "I can't be that authentic way of leader, leader at this place or in this place, type of company, but I know how to find it and I'm gonna go find it."

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky36:13

      Do you have any more e- examples of either, um, someone c- kind of uncovering this about themselves or another mindset shift that you could make in one of these other buckets, um, similar to kind of the idea of, "I'll think about people liking me over the long term versus immediately"?

   5. KNKen Norton36:31

      Yeah. You know, it- it- it really does vary. You- you- you start to pick up on that shift when it- it's less of, um, how- you know, the- the- the goals being defined externally and more- and more of the goals being defined internally, right? So, you know, you'll have a conversation with somebody who's new to coaching and they'll s- and you'll say, "Well, what do you want?" You know? And they'll be like, "Well I wanna- I wanna get promoted to VP." "Okay. Why?" "Because I wanna- 'cause I wanna be a VP," right? It's like, "Well, what's important about being a VP?" "Well, because..." And eventually the answer is, "Well, 'cause it's there," right? "And that's the- the thing that I'm supposed to do." And then you start to notice the shift and it starts to become more of, you know, "Well, because really what I love is..." You know, "What's important to me is creativity and, you know, when I- when I want- I want more creativity in my life and I- I want more," um, you know, "ability to, uh, challenge other people." Right? And so you start to kind of ????? from in than from out, and that's where that shift is. And, you know, the journey is- is different for- for everyone, um, and I think ultimately this is part of why, quite frankly, coaching may not be right for everyone. Right? It- it may be, um... You know, if we go back to that video game analogy, if you're looking for someone to just teach you the tutorial so you can learn how to play the video game and there's, you know, this jackass like me sitting next to you and saying, "What's important to you about playing (laughs) this video game?" You're gonna be like, "Just how- can you tell me how to hold the controller? Can you stop?" Um, so it's not always right. It's a place where I think oftentimes people recognize that, you know, they've gotten all the advice, all the frameworks, all the rules, all the tricks, all the tips. They've learned that, they've mastered it, they've tweaked it, they've optimized it, they've recognized the shortcomings, they've customized it, and the emergence that's required for them to get to the next level is just gonna come just as much from inside them as it is from outside, if not more.

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky38:29

      And that's-

   7. KNKen Norton38:30

      That's when that shift is made.

   8. LRLenny Rachitsky38:31

      And that's called mentorship, right, I think, um, for people that are just looking for actual concrete advice on how to do a thing. Is that right? Versus coaching.

   9. KNKen Norton38:39

      I think so. And- and, you know, this is where the words are squishy because I- I... There are a lot of people who are mentoring who are also stepping into a coach role occasionally. Um, you know, there are plenty of, you know, managers who are great at coaching, you know, as necessary. So it- the sort of skills run the gamut, but it's a question of how much are you looking for someone

10. 39:00 – 42:05

    What you can do if you can’t spend a lot on coaching

    1. KNKen Norton39:00

       to tell you the right way, um, versus how much do you believe that there even is no right way (laughs) ? It's ultimately gonna have to be your way. Um, and that's a different place, a different point in your career, different- different levels of journey. It's part of why I tend to work with probably more senior executives, um, because they don't- they're not looking to me to tell them how to do the job. They've already learned how to do the job. There's just something deeper that's gonna need to break through from that.

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky39:26

       This episode is brought to you by Unit. What do Gusto, Uber, Shopify, and AngelList all have in common? They've all decided to build banking into their product. According to AngelList head of product, "Banking makes every single feature more interesting. With it, our platform functions as financial mission control for our customers. Without it, we're just another software tool in a big, messy stack." Embedding banking into your product not only adds differentiation, but also helps you acquire, retain, and monetize your customers. Unit is the market leader in banking-as-a-service, combining multiple bank partners with a developer-friendly API to empower companies of all sizes to launch accounts, cards, payments, and lending in just a few weeks. Unit is trusted by leading brands such as AngelList, HighBeam, Invoice2Go, and Roofstock. To hear more about how Unit enables companies like yours to build banking, visit unit.co/lenny to request a demo or to try their free sandbox. That's unit.co/lenny. For someone that wants to do this sort of work but can't find a coach, doesn't- can't afford a coach, uh, is there something people can do on their own that you'd recommend to help them kind of shift their mindset and do a lot of these things that you've been describing?

    3. KNKen Norton40:42

       Yeah. It's a great question. I think, you know, he- here's- here's the secret about the coaching industry. Anyone can call themselves a coach. Like, there's no... It's- it's very democratized. It's great. Like, there's no gatekeepers and barriers, and there's no, like, 500 licenses you have to go through. Um, and- and there are tons of great coaches who, um, are at various different price levels and different levels of accessibility. Um, and so, you know, I would... If you say, "I can't afford a coach," I might sort of challenge that a little bit and say, you know, "Have you looked?" Um, the other thing is that you don't need a coach who's done the job before. And- and that's another... I mean, obviously I've done the job before, so I'm sort of undermining part of my own selling point here, but, um, coaches are trained to coach people in any topic. So when I went through coach training, I can- I can coach you on anything. People can coach you on anything. And sometimes even there might be power in having a coach that's never done a product management job because there won't be any- any sort of, um, cheating of, like, starting to kind of move into a more of advisor role or maybe as the coachee there- there may be no, "Well, you tell me what should- I should do," and the person will be like, "I don't know. I've never done this job. Let's go back to what you want." Um, so there- there could be some benefit from that. And again, um, you don't have to have done that. Um, so I would say coaching is- is incredibly powerful. I wish I'd had a coach

11. 42:05 – 44:22

    Resources Ken recommends (linked in notes)

    1. KNKen Norton42:05

       much, much earlier in my career. Um, and so, you know, the answer, maybe coaching is more accessible than you thought. Um, if not, I think, you know, the- the things that we're talking about here are internal understanding of what matters to you, your sense of purpose, the sort of inner curiosity, um, and- and that can harnessed at any age. So just sort of wondering about yourself at any point in your career, like, wondering what's important to you.... you know, I love doing values work. Like, what are your values? Like, okay, no, what are you really are your values, right? Like, that's something you can do yourself. That's something you can kind of question, you can read about, you can start to understand. Um, mentors can be great, especially mentors who are less about trying to tell you the right way and get you to follow directly their path, but are more they're sort of applying some curiosity, asking questions, challenging you in certain ways. Being a- a way that you can id- bounce ideas off of. Um, great managers, I think, especially the best product lead- leaders, um, n- understand how to put the coach hat on and when it's appropriate to put the coach hat on, um, and are explicit about that, and are sort of like, "Okay, let me- let me take off my manager hat now and put the coach hat on. You know, what do you- what do you really want to do, Lenny? Like, what's important to you? What- what- what's your career?" Um, and so I think you can get coaching for every work. Um, there's a lot of self-coaching you can do. Um, there's a lot of... This is honestly one of the benefits for me having gone through tons of training and coaching is, like, starting to coach myself, like, being, like, feeling an emotion and asking myself coach questions. Really powerful. That's something you can learn, you can do when you've had a coach. You can do it when you don't have a coach. You can explore it. So, I think this is really all about really being curious and wanting to understand who you really are at the core and what's important to you and what matters, and that's something that can be done, you know, with or without a coach.

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky43:57

       Are there any resources that, um, you love for even- either the values work or kind of learning these questions to ask yourself? We can put them in the show notes if nothing comes to mind immediately, but is there something you r- recommend people check out?

    3. KNKen Norton44:08

       Um, yeah, there's some great books. May- maybe I'll- I'll use this opportunity to- to throw out a couple suggestions.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky44:14

       Let's do it.

    5. KNKen Norton44:15

       And we can... I guess, we- we can look into the show notes. Um, Brené Brown's, uh, Dare to Lead is a good book, and she actually even

12. 44:22 – 48:10

    Biggest blindspots people have

    1. KNKen Norton44:22

       has a whole section in there around values, sort of confronting your values. I like her approach. There's some free resources on her website. Um, I love Conscious Leadership Group's work here. The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership book is fantastic. There's a... And- and you don't even need to- to- to buy the book. There's a ton of stuff on their website. Jim Dettmer, um, Diana Chapman, and, um, Kaylee, uh, Warner Clemp are- are the authors of that book. And that's all about a lot of the stuff we've been talking about. And- and there's, they- they're the ones that- that have the sort of above the line versus below the line that fits into this sort of creative versus reactive, um, standpoint. Um, those are all fantastic. Um, if you want to go deeper into more of the- the- the management science behind it, if you're like me and really curious about the psychology and the ma- and the management science, um, Bob Anderson and Bill Adams' book, Mastering Leadership, creates the sort of, um, uh, the entire sort of system, integrated system, around creative versus reactive. Um, and- and sort of as a teaser, they- they identify five levels of leadership of which reactive is the second, creative is the third. Um, so beyond that, you get into integral and unitive. So, if you're looking to l- unlock the advanced (laughs) um, stages beyond creative, uh, there's a lot of great stuff in there. And that's where all the research comes in as well. Um, from an adult development standpoint, um, Robert Kegan is- is sort of the- the- the godfather of the s- adult stage development work and the sort of meaning making that- that underlines a lot of this. Um, he has a great book called Immunity To Change if you're- if you're curious about that.

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky46:07

       Awesome. We will link to all those in the description of this podcast so folks don't have to Google around. I have a couple more coaching questions before we move on to a few other topics. Um, one is just what are you finding are the most common blind spots for product people in general? Like, how are- how are people shooting themselves in the foot most?

    3. KNKen Norton46:28

       Oh, that's a great question. Um, you know, I think it- it... The- the- probably the number one category, I'm not sure it's necessarily a problem, but maybe category of problems is, you know, and- and this is, I think, great lesson for people earlier in their career, is the how much all of the challenges that senior executives are dealing with come down to people versus, you know, product, right? So, it's like, you know, it's fun to think about designing products, optimizing, doing user discovery and, you know, w- what testing, what... But it's like you sit down with an executive and it's all (laughs) about people, right? That's the hard part. It's about persuading people, getting groups of people that want to work together, um, uh, h- trying to figure out how to deal with difficult personalities, figuring out how to set a vision and articulate a vision, create an environment where people can collaborate and play. Um, and so I think there's, you know, this sort of category of blind spot often is people being confronted with that without having been intentional about thinking of it as a skill or an area that they needed to work on, needed to improve. Um, and part of what I think is pretty exciting about product- product management is you are a leader from day one in product management, right? And- and, you know, there's leadership all over the place, but that's sort of your job. You're a leader. You don't- you don't have any formal authority, um, but you're a leader. You're expected to lead. And- and guess what? The hardest part about being a leader i- is when- when you don't get to just rely on

13. 48:10 – 49:20

    Why doing the hard thing, may be the best thing

    1. KNKen Norton48:10

       the formal authority. So, you're getting to practice all the hard parts about leadership from day one, um, 'cause you're nobody's boss, right? And you get to- to, you know, sharpen those skills, develop those intuitions, get better and better at that, so that when you do someday, if this is right for you, become someone else's boss, you've already been able to lean into that. And so the people side of this is- is-... is such an incredible aspect of what product management is. And what I find and, you know, and this may be a sort of a category of blind spots, is people realizing that when they're put in a position where they're expected to, to have impact and, and realizing that they haven't developed the skills, they haven't de- developed the capability to, to actually be able to, to manage and work through all these people issues.

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky49:02

       How do you actually get better at that or develop those skills? I know it's maybe, uh, too big a question, but what do you... what can people do to realize, like, now that they know this is maybe a big blind spot-

    3. KNKen Norton49:11

       (laughs)

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky49:11

       ... what should they do?

    5. KNKen Norton49:13

       Yeah, I just think of recognizing it's part of the job and it's important. And, and you know, this is... Maybe I came up at a certain time where

14. 49:20 – 58:40

    What to do with imposter syndrome

    1. KNKen Norton49:20

       it was often dis- dismissed as soft skills, right? It's just like, you know, uh, uh, soft skills are helpful, but, like, they're not actually something you're gonna work on. They're not something you train, not something you... And, um, you know, they're... This is just as important, right? This is the equal... You know, I, I, I wrote a piece recently about the art versus the science. The art is communication, collaboration, the more sort of fuzzy, softer skills, people stuff. Um, and it's an elevation of that being just as important, if not more important over time as all the sort of skills, techniques, tactics, you know, managing a backlog, all that kind of stuff, right, that you have to do. And you should invest in that the same way you invest in those other skills. So if you, you go off to a training, um, to learn a technique for doing, you know, uh, I don't know, some sort of technical, uh, you know, dashboard analysis, um, why don't you go to training to learn how to have difficult conversations?

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky50:21

       (laughs)

    3. KNKen Norton50:21

       Um, 'cause there's some great training about there, about having difficult conversations. Um, or do some training about storytelling, right? These are all really, really important factors that start to come into play. And what I, what I would recommend is just appreciating that these are gonna really, really matter and practicing and then valuing them and not thinking of them as something that either will matter later or a distraction or not really part of the job.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky50:47

       I think the reason people don't do that work is because it's so hard (laughs) . It's, uh, l- have... Difficult conversations are difficult and-

    5. KNKen Norton50:55

       Yeah.

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky50:55

       ... we talked about this with Shreyas, but, uh, just, like, it's like a sh- a rule of thumb, the thing that is hard is probably the thing you should be doing. It's like a compass pointing you to the thing you should do.

    7. KNKen Norton51:05

       Absolutely. And, and that is, you know, we are all about doing hard stuff, product managers. That's what we're all about, right? And so, you know, when something seems hard and it seems squishy and it seems like it's difficult to put a three-step rule around or, you know, chances are it's really gonna matter and it, and it kind of goes back to this, this mindset shift, right? That means that there's an opportunity for you, you know, to readjust your inner, um, complexity management system to adapt to that area of complexity that you're now seeing, um, because this stuff really feels squishy, right? Um, and so that's even more of a reason why you wanna get your hands around it and grab onto it and value it and learn and grow from it.

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky51:50

       Speaking of difficult and squishy, uh, I'm guessing that-

    9. KNKen Norton51:53

       (laughs)

    10. LRLenny Rachitsky51:54

        ... one of the biggest challenges that people you work with face and one of those recurring themes is imposter syndrome, people having imposter syndrome.

    11. KNKen Norton52:00

        Mm-hmm.

    12. LRLenny Rachitsky52:01

        Something definitely I went through and it comes up a lot on this podcast. What do you usually advise your clients, uh, to, to do when they're feeling imposter syndrome?

    13. KNKen Norton52:11

        Yeah, it's a great question. Um, I, I always get corrected to say imposter phenomenon by people in the psychology community 'cause I guess it's not a dysfunction. I don't... And so I've, I've, I've learned to, to, to (laughs) use their terms, but, um, yeah, everyone... I think ev- just about everyone experiences it at some point, and research shows it, that, that definitely is borne out. Um, you know, it's, it's really a, uh, well, moments when you're doubting your abilities or you feel like a fraud or you feel like you don't belong. Um, it's funny 'cause I'm, as I'm interrogating my, my own inner emotional state right now, I'm feeling it a little bit because you're asking. I'm like, there's a part of me right now it's just like, "You're not a trained psychologist. What are you..." You know, when I said that whole thing, "Well, it's technically a phenomenon," it's like there was a voice that was like, "What are you talking about? (laughs) You don't know what you're talking about."

    14. LRLenny Rachitsky53:00

        (laughs) We'll put- we'll put a disclaimer-

    15. KNKen Norton53:01

        Who are you to weigh in on this?

    16. LRLenny Rachitsky53:02

        ... on the episode.

    17. KNKen Norton53:02

        Yeah. I'm not a psychologist. So, so look, we all feel it. And, and, you know, there's a part of me right now is like, "I'm gonna say the wrong thing and embarrass myself." Um, I, I think your point around squishy, exactly right, like, product managers, product leaders maybe more so because the role is so cross-functional and ill-defined, and there's always gonna be an edge of the job that you, you aren't as qualified as whoever you're interacting with. That's sort of the nature of it. Look, we're never gonna be as good an engineer, as good a designer, as good... You know, so there's all these sort of opportunities for that. And I find, certainly from client work, that there is a little bit of a softening and solidarity just knowing that, right? Just like, "Oh, you have that too?" "Oh, I have that. Yeah, there's so- there's some, some value to that." Um, I do think though it's in- you know, it's, it's probably worth... I think it's important to pause here and say that there is the risk of dismissing or, you know, even maybe weaponizing imposter phenomenon against particular populations, particularly women, um, people of color, of all genders, w- women of color especially, right, um, who are facing real external feedback and doubt about their abilities, right? The, the, the environment is reinforcing and sort of the source of a lot of this stuff, microaggressions, bias, real aggressions. And so I think we, we always have to be careful in the helping professions to not dismiss it as, you know, a problem that just shifts the obligation to the, to the person, right? So it's like, "Oh, that's just your imposter syndrome, deal with it," while it's really easy to overlook all these sort of systemic issues that are leading to that imposter syndrome. So the leaders I work with, I think we have a special obligation.... both to, sort of, confront our own inner, inner dynamic, but also to recognize what our role is in the environ- the broader environment, um, that might be contributing to some of this stuff. And if you're a leader, you know, you have a special obligation to dismantle those, um, not when you're meeting with your people being like, "Ah, it's just your imposter syndrome. You can work through it. Hire a coach." But to recognize, "Okay, wait. What signals are you getting? What, what issues are contributing to this? What's our role in needing to change that?" Um, so that's, I think that's worth, worth pointing out. Um, there's, there's, um... Oh, and by the way, there's a great article, um, in Harvard Business Review from a couple years ago that I think its title was literally Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome. And the two authors of that were Ruchika Tulshyan and Jody Ann Beery, if, if you're curious and want to go into more depth on that. You know, as coaches, there, there's all sorts of ways we're trained to work with this. Um, oftentimes, there's an inner critic, an inner voice. We all have voices, saboteurs. Um, they are often trying to help us. They have good intentions, but they're- they're sort of, um, developed to try to protect us in certain ways. So become, gaining awareness of those, right? Just sort of like, "Oh, that is an inner critic. That's what it's trying to do." Um, there's a self-distancing that's valuable to that and sort of really kind of... I like to think of it a little bit as you've got a board- you've got an inner board of directors, and there's some, you know, noisy, chatty voices that every so often sort of sit in the chairman's, chairperson's seat and start taking over. And if you start to recognize, "Wait, no, I'm the chairperson. I don't want to hear from you right now. We'll hear from you later," it starts to create some power, and you start to notice when it's happening. Um, you know, we will- will bypass inner critic sometimes as a v- sort of classic coaching technique. It's like, "Okay, um, sounding like that's your inner critic is saying that. What if we just ask it to maybe step aside and let's keep talking here?" Um, you can befriend it. There's a lot of, um, practices and works that's actually trying to understand what its motivations are if you think of it as a board, you know. Give this board member a new job, put it on a new committee, reassign it. Um, there's oftentimes underlying belief systems. You know, we talked before about my impression of what a real leader was and sort of who they had to be. And so, hey, when all those second-guessing of me not being a real leader and me not being qualified came from some of those underlying assumptions that that was the only type of leader that was effective was somebody that was, like, slamming their fist down on the table. Okay, so, w- what, what, what if we redefine that, right? Um, I'm too kind to be a leader. I'm not dominating and commanding enough. You know, when you hear a client say that as a coach, you, you recognize, okay, there's a connection being made here between what effective leadership is and isn't. Let's, let's interrogate that connection. Is that connection actually true? Um, you know, the- the, um, you know, again sort of get backs to this question of you're often responding to other styles, approaches you've seen. You're comparing yourself to others, right? So this is the- the reactive mindset of I'm always comparing myself to that person, to that way, that being, and seeing myself as lesser than. And so the inner work of sort of starting to see who I really am truly inside and less comparing myself to others. Um, but yeah, imposter phenomenon, syndrome, whatever you want to call it, very, very, very common and very, very popular, I suppose. Although, when I say popular, it's like popular like a plague (laughs) .

    18. LRLenny Rachitsky58:08

        (laughs) Another inner critic, uh, tactic I've heard that I kind of used for a bit that was helpful is to give your inner critic a name, like Jim. And you'd be like, "Jim, not right now. I don't need you right now." (laughs)

    19. KNKen Norton58:19

        Yeah.

    20. LRLenny Rachitsky58:19

        That kind of helps.

    21. KNKen Norton58:21

        Yeah, there is a whole school of, uh, coaching that, that, um, I've worked with that it's called parts work or, um, internal family systems. It, it comes from a psychologist named Richard Schwartz who determined this. And, and it can be really, really powerful. Like, uh, with my clients, we will, we will give them names. We will imagine

15. 58:40 – 1:01:03

    Ways to find a coach

    1. KNKen Norton58:40

       what they look like. They will interview these parts. Um, have you seen the Pixar movie, Inside Out?

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky58:45

       Mm-hmm.

    3. KNKen Norton58:45

       I have this notion that, like, hey, all these different parts show up in different ways. And I'm gonna put myself, you know, the real me, the real self into the- the chairperson's seat. And when I hear these voices, I'm gonna appreciate them for what they are and who they are. They're not me. They're parts of me. And, and there's something really powerful in that, right? There's a sense of like, you know... Because otherwise, they're all me, right? So I don't... I just hear this voice telling me I'm an idiot and I'm a clown and I'm not qualified to be in this room. And then when you can start to go, "Oh, yeah, there, there it is. That's, you know, that's- that's Larry the Loser, my- my big, you know, angry, irritating judge, who's, of course... Wow, yeah. You know, Larry always shows up every time I do something new 'cause Larry doesn't want me to challenge myself. So of course Larry's gonna pipe in. I've heard from Larry. I'm gonna ask Larry to step aside. Let's go." Yeah. It can be very powerful.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky59:39

       I love that. One last question about coaching. For folks that want to find a coach, do you have any advice of just, like, how to find a coach and then what questions can you... What are, like, a couple questions you can ask to evaluate if they're a good fit for you?

    5. KNKen Norton59:52

       Yeah. Great question. So I think like any helping profession, you know, uh, f- like finding a therapist or really anyone who you're gonna have a- a deep and sort of lasting, um, relationship with, uh, this, or trust and authenticity is really important. And, and, and I think we all, all us coaches recognize and we feel this as well with clients is that there either has to be a fit or, or it, or not. And sometimes it's hard to put your finger on it. Sometimes you just, you meet with someone and you're like, "Yeah, it clicks. This feels right." Sometimes you're like, "Eh, it doesn't." And, and that's okay. Um, and so all coaches worth their salt will offer a free session to- to- to- to understand that and gauge that. And, um, and I always tell everyone in that session, you know, "I- if- if you don't decide to work with me or I decide, we- we don't need a reason," right? (laughs) It's fine if it- they're just not a fit, um, and that's okay. You don't need to come up with a, you know, bullet-point reasons to let me down. Just, it's part of how it goes.Um, you might prefer certain people, certain genders, certain backgrounds. You may feel more comfortable with, less com- comfortable with. Maybe you want an old guy like me, maybe (laughs) you- you don't want an old guy like me. Uh, and that's fine. It sort of has to feel right. Um, I would, um, ask

16. 1:01:03 – 1:05:35

    10x vs 10%

    1. KNKen Norton1:01:03

       them to talk to you about what coaching is to them, um, 'cause again, it- it might combine some of these more mentory things, it might be more tactical. Some coaches are more sort of structured and we're gonna, week one, we're gonna do this, week two, we're gonna do this. Week... Others are more sort of p- pure coaches like me where, you know, look, you know, within the first five minutes, I'm gonna ask you what I wanna talk about today 'cause you're bringing the agenda. So figure that out, figure out what works for you. And then I think there's a lot of great places to go, actually, specifically like where to go. The International Coaching Federation is our governing body, so those of us that are credentialed coaches you'll find there. Again, you don't have to be a credentialed, but that'll be a great place to f- to find people who are. There are some matchmaking services, BetterUp, Torch are some of the more accessible ones. There's one called Prismatico is a little bit more higher end for- for more senior execs. Scale just put out a list of- of top coaches who work with product managers and product leaders, all sorts of great coaches. I'm gonna include that link. Uh, Lenny, I think you're in- you're involved.

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:04

       Yeah. Congrats on winning, uh, one of their categories for best coach of, uh, which category was that?

    3. KNKen Norton1:02:10

       Uh, product, yeah, product leaders. So it was just a setup for you to say that.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:13

       (laughs)

    5. KNKen Norton1:02:14

       (laughs) But thank you. But there's- there's tons of great coaches, and different styles, different stages of careers, and I think all those folks have- have worked- worked with or have worked with product, uh, product folks. And so, you know, again, just talk to a few, right? Reach out to a few, ask them. If you're looking for more names, ask people who you admire, whose leadership styles y- you like and want to emulate, who they recommend. Um, 'cause oftentimes there's certain, you know, they have a better understanding of, hey, this is the type of coach that may wanna work with more of the emotional work, or this is the type of coach who actually maybe has a more compatible vision of what you're looking for. 'Cause look, there's- I'm a, all coaches are different. Like I'm a, you can tell I'm a touchy feely, like heart kind of coach. There are coaches who are, sometimes people want a coach who are just like, you know, "You grab that brass ring. We're gonna pound the table and I'm gonna chou- push you, I'm gonna challenge you, I'm gonna beat you up, I'm gonna..." and be more of like a drill sergeant. That's a different style of coach that works with other people that may be more what you're looking for. So, I would just talk to a bunch, do some free sessions, get an opportunity to explore it. I coach people in the free session, so it's not just like we're talking. I'm gonna, we're gonna- we're gonna talk about something. I'm gonna coach you. You're gonna get see- a sense of what this looks like. And then come away and just ask yourself what are your goals and where was there a fit? Um, and if- if there's not, you know, just keep looking.

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky1:03:32

       Amazing. That was very tactically helpful and I really appreciate all those resources and we'll definitely link to all that in the description. I have just a couple questions I wanted to ask you outside of coaching around some of your posts that you've written before we get to our exciting lightning round. Wha-

    7. KNKen Norton1:03:46

       Uh-oh. (laughs)

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky1:03:48

       (laughs) One is around this idea of 10X versus 10%. So you wrote this post-

    9. KNKen Norton1:03:52

       Yeah.

    10. LRLenny Rachitsky1:03:52

        ... about the importance of thinking 10X versus 10% and truthfully I was, I actually had a post started, um, 10X versus 10% and I was like, "Oh, this is gonna be great." And then I Googled, oh shit, Ken's already written about this. (laughs) So I'm glad that-

    11. KNKen Norton1:04:04

        (laughs)

    12. LRLenny Rachitsky1:04:04

        ... you have written about it and written about it so well. Uh, and s-

    13. KNKen Norton1:04:07

        Great minds think alike, as they say. (laughs)

    14. LRLenny Rachitsky1:04:10

        Now I don't have to write it. And I'd love to just hear a general, your kind of general take on what this idea is and how to think about 10X versus 10% bets.

    15. KNKen Norton1:04:19

        Yeah. And again, this is, I'm a great synthesizer of ideas. This isn't my idea, this is a lot of, um, you know, came from- from some thinking at Google and some push. And- and I think it's really this sense that we think too small sometimes and you'll see that as a theme for some of the other things I've written too. And- and there- there needs to be a push, right? If you really want to have huge breakthrough innovation, like you need to be able to try, you need to be able to fail, you need to be able to shoot for the moon, right? It's where this 10X comes from. And a lot of it is mindset, but a lot of it is also cultural, right? Sort of creating environments where, um, and I had the great privilege of working at Google for 14 years and I felt like this was, it was definitely an environment that I got to play in of being willing to take big swings that might fail. And this doesn't mean bet the company, we could all be out of business tomorrow, but it's- it's like if you have a choice between trying something that could have a massive breakthrough, a massive change, and- and playing small ball where you're gonna get a bunch of 10% improvements. You are, over time, if you're willing to try, if you're willing to fail, if you're willing to push yourself, if you're willing to think bigger, if you're willing to create environments where great ideas come from th- come from places that are unexpected, you'll achieve massive, massive breakthrough. And you can find the piece on my website 'cause I use examples from- from history, but it is a little bit of being brave and

17. 1:05:35 – 1:13:00

    Ken’s One Piece Of Advice For Hiring A Product Manager

    1. KNKen Norton1:05:35

       trying big things. If you look at all the great technology, the huge breakthrough innovations that we've had, the- the coronavirus vaccine, right? Like just this, man, do you... There is no small ball in that, right? There was, that was a big, big swing that there was no guarantee of success, but we were willing to try it and we were willing to fail knowing that, um, failure was probably the more likely outcome in the chance that we would achieve something that would really have that level of breakthrough. Um, and so I think it is, what I always sort of challenge leaders to do is create the environment where people can step in and- and- and bring those types of ideas and not play it safe or not be like, "Ugh, boy, that seems like a big one. If we bring that to the CEO, there's no way they'll take a chance, so let's- let's ramp down our expectations. Let's bring this little idea in that is a little bit more guaranteed to work." And so it is sort of an obligation on leaders to create that environment for people to be able to innovate because the ideas are out there, right? There's not... You know, I use that, the example of Kodak. Um, Kodak invented the digital camera, right? It wasn't like, oh, at Kodak, people at Kodak were dumb, they didn't know digital was coming. No, they- they literally invented the digital camera. There just wasn't an environment created where the people who had that idea, who saw that potential, who saw that possibility could step up to the plate.... and try.

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky1:06:57

       Do you have any rules of thumb of like, how many of your ideas slash resources should go into these big ideas versus incremental 10% bets? Or is the general advice just like, people aren't thinking big enough often enough, so you should always think a little bit bigger than you naturally will?

    3. KNKen Norton1:07:12

       I think it depends. I mean, it depends on the company. Like if you're, if you work in R&D, you know, in labs, then may be all, maybe everything is, is in that category, and you, you build a prof- you know, portfolio. Right? I mean, this is, you know, if you're a venture capital seed investor or if you're working at, um, a research lab, it's like you're building a huge portfolio of these bets, and you're just assuming that, you know, maybe all, 99 of them will fail but one'll, one'll succeed and it'll make it all worthwhile. Um, you know, most of us aren't in those environments. We're in places where we're, we have real customers buying our products, wanting our products, using our products, and we're like, "Let's bet the entire company on 50 things that may not work out." It may not be right for you. Um, so I think it is a little bit of a, of approach. Um, at the... I think it needs to be thought of at, in a s- in a sort of, um, a fractal way though, right? 'Cause maybe at the company level, they're sort of thinking, you know, um, Google once upon a time had a 70/20/10 thing, where it was like, "70% is our core business," which at the time was search and ads, "20% a sort of adjacent business, and then 10% on crazy bets that may not be anything." But I think that's at the company level. At the individual level, at your team level, you might, you might have your own way of thinking, right? You're just like, "Okay, we've got, I've got 12 engineers on the team. You know, we're working on, at any time, a bunch of stuff that we know we have to do. This is a bunch of stuff that we hope is like 10%. And then we're gonna create some space for, for some innovation," right? Maybe it's just like, one engineer every sprint, or it's like, you know, couple times a year we... You know, you create that type of space in your own little air bubble that isn't necessarily at the sort of portfolio level, um, to try things that may, that may not work. But if they do, the payoff will be so substantial that it'll make the whole thing worthwhile.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky1:08:55

       Awesome. Very helpful. Next question is around, I think, your most popular post that you've ever written, and maybe the thing that kind of put you on the radar of writing, uh, is around how to hire a product manager. And maybe this is where you mentioned donuts the first time. Is that right? Or, or no?

    5. KNKen Norton1:09:13

       I don't... You know, it's funny. I think that was later.

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky1:09:14

       (laughs) Okay.

    7. KNKen Norton1:09:15

       Uh, 'cause I... Yeah, yeah, I, I think that was a, a talk that came after that.

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky1:09:19

       Okay, cool.

    9. KNKen Norton1:09:19

       But yeah, that was definitely the big one for me.

    10. LRLenny Rachitsky1:09:21

        So here's the question, just to keep it simple. Like, what's like, one piece of advice that you would give people trying to hire a product manager? What's like the thing that-

    11. KNKen Norton1:09:30

        Hmm.

    12. LRLenny Rachitsky1:09:30

        ... you think is most maybe missed or useful?

    13. KNKen Norton1:09:34

        Um, yeah. I think the intangibles, right? There's, this is... When I wrote that, um... So basically, I wrote that as, originally as an email that it was like a copy-pasta kind of thing for me, where people kept coming to me and being like, "Hey, I think we're gonna try to hire a product manager at our company. Can you send over a sample job description?" And I'd be like, "Yeah. You know, before we write the job description, let's talk about what the job is, 'cause I'm not sure we all mean the same thing." And so then I wrote that. It was in 2005, so this goes back, um, to try to define like what the role actually is. And, um, and I actually feel like maybe the pendulum's shifted way too far now, where it's like, the interview process is so structured that, you know, e- everyone's doing all these mock... They know exactly what questions they're gonna get and it's SAT prep, right? Everyone's like ready. But we've missed out with, can they do the job? 'Cause it's like, they can pass the interview, but can they do the job? And so, I think you have to be careful. This is particularly the case if you are a smaller company, right? You don't have a huge apparatus of like Google and Meta, where you've got sort of interviewing, you know, monolith of, of getting, um, sort of persuaded into... You know, maybe this goes back a little bit to the science and the art. Like, you know, they passed all the sort of technical questions. They do all this, they do all that, they do all that. But then you neglect to find out, can this person show up and work (laughs) with these engineers, these designers? Can they inspire them? Is this somebody that they wanna follow, or do they have the right mindset for what this job entails? Do we even have agreement on what their job is gonna be, right? The number of people you see, you know, early in their career be like, "Well, I thought I was hiring for this, but turns out it's not even product management." Or it's like, "I thought I was gonna do this, but all they want me to do is build V." It's like, how did, how did that not come out in the interview process? It's like, well, I know how it didn't come out, because they answered a whole bunch of structured questions around te- you know, they did a programming exercise and they did a presentation, and nobody stopped to ask. Um, so I think that's really the big thing from a, from a interviewer perspective. And I think same thing goes for the candidate's perspective, right? You are interviewing a potential employer. You're interviewing a boss. You're interviewing coworkers. Um, what do you want? What do you care about? What is the type of place you want, you want to be in? What do you not want to be in? How are you evaluating that? How are you asking those questions? Yeah. You know, salary matters, title, all that kind of stuff matters, but like, you know, you're interviewing a place to plop yourself into. How, how are you approaching that to make sure you're making the right decision?

    14. LRLenny Rachitsky1:12:10

        Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round, where-

    15. KNKen Norton1:12:14

        (laughs)

    16. LRLenny Rachitsky1:12:14

        ... I'm gonna ask you a few questions and, uh, whatever comes to mind, just give me an answer. And, uh, that's it. Very simple. Does that sound good?

    17. KNKen Norton1:12:24

        Yeah. Inner critic is raging right now. (laughs)

    18. LRLenny Rachitsky1:12:26

        (laughs) Oh, no. Real-time imposter syndrome.

    19. KNKen Norton1:12:29

        Here we go.

    20. LRLenny Rachitsky1:12:29

        Watch it like this.

    21. KNKen Norton1:12:30

        Yep.

    22. LRLenny Rachitsky1:12:31

        Okay. So question one, what are, what are two or three books that you recommend most to other people?

    23. KNKen Norton1:12:37

        Uh, well, 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, definitely on that book. Um, and just to sort of add books I've never recommended before, uh, probably Innovator's Dilemma. That's probably my number one favorite book for, for product managers and product leaders.

    24. LRLenny Rachitsky1:12:52

        Amazing. What's a, a recent movie or TV show that you've liked and loved?

    25. KNKen Norton1:12:58

        Uh...... I love

18. 1:13:00 – 1:15:24

    How to find Ken

    1. KNKen Norton1:13:00

       Ms. Marvel and, and I just ... My whole family, we're really enjoying it. I love all the MCU stuff. We just eat it up. But Ms. Marvel has been an- amazing. Um, and then, uh, we're also watching Barry, which is crazy, sort of like nothing else, I think, ever on TV. And then of the last year, probably Severance. It's my favorite, uh, favorite program of the last ... I'd say the last year.

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky1:13:23

       Wow. Yeah. That is a trippy show. I've watched it all. Uh, we might be severed people. We don't even know.

    3. KNKen Norton1:13:29

       (laughs) You won't even know, yeah.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky1:13:31

       Shit. Okay. What is a favorite interview question that you like to ask folks when you interview them?

    5. KNKen Norton1:13:38

       Um ... Well, actually, let me flip it because I just talked about interviewing as the, as the i- interviewer. Maybe I'll ask a favorite question for people who are being interviewed to ask the employer. Is that fair? Or is that like turn the tables too much?

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky1:13:51

       I love it. Yes. Why-

    7. KNKen Norton1:13:53

       I, I think a great question ... Actually, maybe I have a couple. I think one question that I love is how does the company define a product team?

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky1:14:03

       Mm-hmm.

    9. KNKen Norton1:14:03

       Um, because it answers so much, right? It says so much about culture, collaboration, decision-making, the role of product management. It's sort of like if there's one question you could figure out what is this culture like, it would be asking that. Um, I think another great question for candidates is to ask them to pick an example of something they've shipped recently and just talk about how it came to be, right? How did a bill become a law? Um, was it, you know, somebody in sales yelled and, you know, it got added to the backlog and we ... It was just the next thing? Is it, you know, a group of people together understanding customer user needs through discovery and sort of ideating and trying some things and testing it? You know, it says a lot about what it lo- what it would be like to work there, particularly when it comes to empowerment and product culture. Um, so those are probably two, two good questions.

    10. LRLenny Rachitsky1:14:54

        Those are really good questions. I'm gonna steal them.

    11. KNKen Norton1:14:56

        (laughs)

    12. LRLenny Rachitsky1:14:56

        Final question. Who else in the industry do you respect as a thought leader? Imagine this list is very long, but what comes to mind?

    13. KNKen Norton1:15:03

        Uh, well, this, this list is all of my fellow podcast guests on your podcast, Lenny, which is ... Speaking of imposter phenomenon, you just ... An incredible group of all the folks that I, I love and admire. Um, I think though because ... Maybe I'll sort of answer it a little bit outside of product 'cause I, I would, I would worry that I would leave out too many great names.

Episode duration: 1:18:08