Phyl Terry: How to run a job search like a product launch

Through Job Search Councils, listening tours, and Menukin two-pagers; candidate-market fit replaces spray-and-pray, and job missions anchor each negotiation.

Phyl TerryguestLenny Rachitskyhost

Sep 12, 20241h 51mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

155 min read · 31,078 words

0:00 – 1:58
Phyl’s background
1. PTPhyl Terry
  (instrumental music plays) When you're looking for a job, you need a spirit and not an app. What happens when we're building a product? Same thing, right? We want this product to be for everyone. But we've learned with product-market fit, that doesn't work. We need a narrow, clear focus.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  How did you realize this is a really powerful method versus the way people normally look for jobs?
3. PTPhyl Terry
  While it's hard to figure out your candidate-market fit, it's also a relief to know it's not about you. So what I ask people to do is I ask them to think about what they want and what they don't want. Now, you might not think that that's a (laughs) radical step, Lenny, but most people don't do that. When they get laid off, they spray and pray.
4. LRLenny Rachitsky
  This is very much like a product person thinks about new product.
5. PTPhyl Terry
  There's no I in team. Well, there is an I in village, (laughs) and the I in village is that when you start to interview and negotiate, you've got to be in charge. I want you to play to win, not not to lose.
6. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Is there anything else that you think might be helpful to people looking for a job?
7. PTPhyl Terry
  If someone did this, it would blow my mind. I would hire them on the spot.
8. LRLenny Rachitsky
  (instrumental music plays) Today, my guest is Phil Terry. Phil is the author of Never Search Alone, which I've seen so many people reference as the most impactful thing they read for helping them find a job. Once you listen to this episode, you'll see why. Prior to this book, Phil was on the founding team of the first company that Amazon acquired back in the '90s, and then was CEO of the pioneering product and customer experience consulting firm Creative Good for over 15 years, where Phil and the team had companies like Apple, Facebook, Microsoft, and hundreds of other companies as customers. Phil also co-authored Customers Included, has written articles for the Harvard Business Review, and has delivered more than 500 keynotes to companies like Apple and Microsoft. This episode is for anyone struggling to find a job or unhappy in the job that they are in. I promise you, the time you put into listening to this episode will help you find a job that you love. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and helps the podcast tremendously. With that, I bring you Phil
1:58 – 4:27
The concept of job search councils
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Terry. Phil, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
2. PTPhyl Terry
  Oh, what a pleasure. I'm such a fan of yours, Lenny. I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you.
3. LRLenny Rachitsky
  I'm a huge fan of yours, and I think, uh, by the end of this, I'll be an even bigger fan of yours. What I'm hoping that we can do in our chat today is to help people who are struggling to find a job, and especially struggling to find a job they love, actually find that job with actual tips that they can use today and this week. How does that, how does that feel to you?
4. PTPhyl Terry
  That's great. We have some practical, time-tested stuff that I've developed over the last 25 years with leaders in Silicon Valley, especially in the product community. We've really brought a product lens to reinventing the job search, Lenny.
5. LRLenny Rachitsky
  This is a perfect Venn diagram of, of topics then.
6. PTPhyl Terry
  Yes.
7. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Um, there's a lotta ways I can approach this. I wanna start with a question about something that you run, something that you created, something that has had a lot of impact on a lotta people, Job Search Councils. What is a Job Search Council?
8. PTPhyl Terry
  It's a support group of six to eight seek, seekers, right? So product people, and it, but it, it's not just for product people, but the product community really owns this. It comes out of the product community. And what they do is they commit to being with each other, to supporting each other, go through the process of looking for a job, and figuring out some of the... And, and I lay out a methodology, how to figure out your candidate-market fit, one of the big concepts in the book, as well as how to play to win, not not to lose. You know what I mean? People are scared in the job search. The, here, here's the thing, Lenny, that people really have a hard time, really have a hard time believing. Everyone, I mean everyone... And, you know, I work with some of the most senior people in Silicon Valley. I'm talking about CEOs of public companies. I'm talking about chief product officers, VPs of product at great brands. Everyone, no matter who they are, Lenny, feels insecure and anxious in the job search. And if you do it alone, it magnifies that. So with Job Search Councils, there, there's this great hack. I didn't invent this. It's baked into human psychology. (laughs) If you put anxious people together and ask them to be open and vulnerable and to ask for help, and we'll come back to asking for help, it actually flips the anxiety and the fear into hope, into motivation, into accountability and confidence. It's like, "What?" (laughs) You know? It's fantastic.
9. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
10. PTPhyl Terry
  My mother taught me this. We can talk about her at some point. But it's, you know, it's really
4:27 – 8:55
The power of community in job searching
1. PTPhyl Terry
  powerful.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  That's amazing. And your whole book is called Never Search Alone, so the whole premise of how you recommend people look for jobs is to look for jobs with other people. You mentioned maybe it's your mom, maybe something else. How did you, how did you realize this is a really powerful method versus-
3. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah.
4. LRLenny Rachitsky
  ... the way people normally look for jobs?
5. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah. So there's, you know, I've, I've worked... Uh, I, I set up my first council more than 40 years ago. I set up the first CEO council for internet CEOs in the mid '90s, and then I've run product and CEO council since. But it goes all the way back to my mom.
6. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Hmm.
7. PTPhyl Terry
  1960, Lenny. 1960, right? So we're talking e- you know, what is that, 64 years ago? In the San Fernando Valley, my mom was a newly minted elementary school teacher, and she put together a council of teachers. That group met for 50 years, 5-0, until the year she died, and they worked together to ask for help and support each other in their careers. And you know, Lenny, people say to me, like, "Does this, does this Never Search Alone method work in a tough job market?" And I'll tell you, it's, it comes out of tough job markets (laughs) , absolutely, yes, starting with my mom. So in 1974, my dad... In 1976, he left, and it was just me and my mom and my sister. He had insisted that she stop teaching, so she lost her tenure and everything. Her candidate-market fit was terrible, but she had her council. And, and it was the mid '70s, and Lenny, you probably can't imagine how hard it was for a single middle-aged woman with kids-... looking for a job in Los Angeles in the mid-'70s.
8. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
9. PTPhyl Terry
  It was terrible, but she had her support group and they held her hand. And to the job she could get, guess what? She had to be an entry level teacher again, after having been a senior teacher, coaching and advising. It was really tough. So that, that had a big impact on me.
10. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
11. PTPhyl Terry
  And then when the dot-com bubble burst, I was running Creative Good and suddenly there was a depression. And suddenly I'm helping hundreds of people try to figure out their job search. So it's, it's, it's, it's been going for a number of years, you know, but it goes back to my mom. I dedicate the book to her and the community we've built.
12. LRLenny Rachitsky
  That's beautiful. Let me tell you about a product called Sidebar. The most successful people that I know surround themselves with incredible peers. When you have a trusted group of peers, you can discuss challenges you're having, get career advice, and just gut check how you're thinking about your work, your career, and your life. This gives you more than a leg up, it gives you a leap forward. Having a group of trusted and amazing peers was key to my career growth, and this is the Sidebar ethos, but it's hard to build this trusted group of peers on your own. Sidebar is a platform for senior tech professionals, director to C-level, to advance in their career. Members are matched into peer groups to lean on for unbiased opinions, diverse perspectives, and raw feedback. Guided by world-class programming and facilitation, all running on Sidebar's technology, Sidebar enables you to get focused, tactical feedback at every step of your career journey. If you're a listener of this podcast, you're already committed to growth. Sidebar is the missing piece to catalyze your career. 93% of members say Sidebar helped them achieve a significant positive change in their career. Check them out at sidebar.com/lenny. This episode is brought to you by Sprig. What if product teams knew exactly what to build to reach their goals? From increasing conversion to boosting engagement, these challenges require a deep understanding of your users, something that you can't get from product analytics alone. Meet Sprig, a product experience platform that generates AI-powered opportunities to continuously improve your product at scale. First, Sprig captures your product experience in real time through heat maps, replays, surveys, and feedback studies. Then Sprig's industry-leading AI instantly analyzes all of your product experience data to generate real-time insights. Sprig AI goes even further with actionable product recommendations to drive revenue, retention, and user satisfaction. Join product teams at Figma and at Notion by uncovering AI-powered product opportunities at scale. Visit sprig.com/lenny to book a demo and get a $75 gift card. That's S-P-R-I-G.com/lenny.
8:55 – 12:27
The scale and structure of job search councils
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
  There's a lot of elements that you mentioned that we're gonna dig into, so product, uh, job candidate fit, playing to win. You touched on a little bit the idea of this, of settling, figuring out what to settle for. Your mom kind of took a job that's below what she was doing before.
2. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah.
3. LRLenny Rachitsky
  So I want to chat about all these things-
4. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah.
5. LRLenny Rachitsky
  ... a little bit more on these councils. What's the scale of these? So I, I think it's gonna blow people's minds just how-
6. PTPhyl Terry
  (laughs)
7. LRLenny Rachitsky
  ... many of these are happening and-
8. PTPhyl Terry
  We have launched more than 2,000 of these, Lenny. 2,000. And they're completely free.
9. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Hm.
10. PTPhyl Terry
  Completely, 100% free. It's volunteer driven. We have hundreds of pages of tools. We've got a Slack community. We have a free matching program. You can sign up and we'll match you and put you in a council. Then we'll give you training, live training. But it's just, there's so many volunteers. We have 20,000 hours of volunteer work that's already been put into this, Lenny.
11. LRLenny Rachitsky
  And you said that it's free. I know these things aren't free to run.
12. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah.
13. LRLenny Rachitsky
  I saw somewhere that you had mentioned that basically all your book sales and also just money, (laughs) your own money you've spent-
14. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah.
15. LRLenny Rachitsky
  ... on running these councils. Talk about that for a little bit.
16. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah, all of the books, actually two times the book sales are going into running this.
17. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
18. PTPhyl Terry
  Right? So we have 20,000 hours of volunteer time, but you also have to pay for technology and you have to pay for certain kinds of support. You know, later, you know, we'll talk about this, and we're always looking for more volunteers. And, you know, we, I have a process for people to apply if they're interested in being a part of the team. But yeah, I've, I have, I have dedicated this to my mom and, and I'm giving everything to it.
19. LRLenny Rachitsky
  What's the general structure? If someone's trying to think about how these things work, if they want to join these as we go through it, how do they work?
20. PTPhyl Terry
  Okay, so you apply at phyll.org. P-H-Y-L, fyll with a Y. (laughs) And it, again, it's free, and we match you behind the scenes. Now when you apply, we ask, first of all, "Are you in a job and looking or are you out of work?" Because we separate those two, because they have different cadences. If you're in a job and looking, we call you a slow seeker, 'cause you have a full-time job and you can't work as quickly. If you're out of work and looking, we call you a fast seeker and we put you in different groups, okay? Fast seeker or slow seeker. We also ask, though, "Are you willing to be a moderator?" Every council needs a moderator, and every moderator is a job seeker who volunteers to do that. And if you, and if you volunteer to moderate, first of all, you get matched faster. And secondly, you get more training and support. It's no- it's a little bit more work for a lot more benefit. And we've, you know, we've gotten 2,000 moderators, Lenny. (laughs) It's amazing. And we feel like we're just beginning. Okay, so that's, so you apply, you get matched, and then you go through an orientation program that we run live where we answer, we tell you how this works and what to expect in your first meeting. And then there's a whole set of agendas and materials and everything in the book, as well as we have a, everyone gets a free workbook, 100-page workbook after they join the community with all of the templates and guides and questions. And then you have your first, the moderator pulls you together. You work on Zoom or whatever technology. It's, it's remote typically, and you do what first meeting, we call it meeting zero, where you, where you, where you're open and vulnerable. People share stories about their lives and who they are.... builds trust and get a sense of who people are, and then you move into the process. You meet twice a week typically if you're in a fast seeker council, and every two weeks if you're in a slow seeker. So that, that's the start of the answer. Does that-
21. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Yeah.
22. PTPhyl Terry
  ... help, you think?
23. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Yeah, really helpful. And then you basically are in this council until you find a job, I imagine.
24. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah.
25. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Awesome.
12:27 – 20:19
The impact of job search councils
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
2. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah.
3. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Is there anything you can share on the impact you've seen? Like, the reason I reached out to you to come on this podcast is I just started seeing people mentioning that they found a job, and one of the... and maybe the thing that helped them most was your book and being on one of these councils. And I imagine there's a lot of stories you hear and a lot of numbers you see of just people succeeding going through. So what can you share about just the impact you've seen?
4. PTPhyl Terry
  Well, I, I posted on LinkedIn today that I was gonna be on your podcast.
5. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Yeah.
6. PTPhyl Terry
  And I asked people if they wanted, you know, to share stories with me. And I got... Over email and LinkedIn, I've been flooded with stories from people who are in the process or people who did it. And I can sh- If you like, I can pull up and share a few of those if that would be helpful.
7. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Yeah. If there's a few you have there, that'd be, that'd be really sweet.
8. PTPhyl Terry
  Okay, yeah. So, uh, Justin Meets is a chief product officer who's gone through the process, and he posted on LinkedIn today. He, he said, "As a product leader, I love how it has you apply the product process to your career."
9. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
10. PTPhyl Terry
  Right? So that this comes out of the product world, it's a product lens on the job search, and it's for everyone, but it really makes sense for product people. And he says, "Not only does your JSC help bounce ideas and help your job search, they also help you keep going and accountable when you're low on emotional energy." And I, I talk about this in the book, Lenny. I say, look, most people think, like, what's the most important thing to manage during your job search? They think, well, maybe it's their resume or LinkedIn profile, or their ability to network, you know, or candidate market fit, a concept I introduce I think is really important. All those things are really important. But the most important thing to manage is your emotional balance. I talk about your emotional balance sheet. And for many job seekers, they have more liabilities (laughs) than assets on their ow- own balance sheets. They have more fear and anxiety. They feel demoralized. They have a hard time going. That's why these things are so important.
11. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
12. PTPhyl Terry
  He also says, "Hey, it's a journey, and the more you embrace it, the more you learn about yourself." And he says... And this is important, Lenny, and th- it... This is not... You know, I don't have a magic wand that, especially in a down market today, that magically gets a job. It's hard. The job search and, and... When you talk s- it can be hard and humiliating at times. I know. This is why I wanna create this community, why we're doing this. We wanna give you a place where you can, you know, really get the support when it's hard and humiliating. But the process will ultimately set you up for success if you follow it. You know, there's one woman who just started. She's a senior product leader in a major financial institution. And, and she said, you know, it just from... Uh, she couldn't believe the level of support and openness and vulnerability.
13. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
14. PTPhyl Terry
  And, uh, you know, we really emphasize people being open and vulnerable, and I've learned a lot about how to create that environment. And it ties back to asking for help, which I know we'll talk about more at some point. But, you know, when you create that, it's amazing what people can do together, Lenny. Amazing.
15. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Just to reinforce this point, people listening may be like, "I don't... Like, I'm just gonna keep looking for a job. I'll use all this advice. I don't need a group." What's your best pitch, again, to help people see the value of doing this in a group and joining a council or starting in council?
16. PTPhyl Terry
  I, I acknowledge that that's a reaction that some people have. You know? That's totally valid. And this is unusual what we're doing here. You know? This is not how people look for a job. We're trying to disrupt the job search process. We had this great... Lenny, I, I... This is my quick story. We had a great interview with a, a couple. Two of them were product leaders. Both they had met at Amazon, and then they gone on to have great careers. They both got laid off. The woman joined a job search council right away. She loved it. She raved about it. Her husband, who, who was also an engineer, he was a little more introverted. He's like, "Uh, you know, this isn't for me." And she said, "No, listen, you, I, you, you, you won't..." H- h- and finally he read the book. He said, "I..." He's like, you know... 'Cause the book is. It's kind of... It's... It, it works for the product mind and for the engineering mind. You know? "Oh, it makes sense." He said, "I'll join a council, but I... I... It's not gonna... I'm not gonna be feeling connected to people. I... It'll just... But I'll do this 'cause you asked me to." (laughs) And then he says in the interview, i- it's... We have it up on the site. He's like, "Oh my God, I couldn't believe it." You know, the level of trust we created right off the bat I've never experienced in my life. And it, it's really true. The accountability, the motivation, the ability to, to hang in there. And so I say to people, "Look, try it." And, and, you know, we have all these videos on our website with all these people talking. Go look at it, you know, if you wanna read the book first and see if you think this makes sense. Um, but try it. You... It, it... You will be shocked in a positive way. (laughs)
17. LRLenny Rachitsky
  (laughs)
18. PTPhyl Terry
  You, you... You will discover how delightful it is and how, how we h- You know, we live in a world where there's increasing loneliness, Lenny. There's so much research about this, you know? The surgeon general's book, everybody talking about it. And, and it's more detrimental to our health than smoking cigarettes. You know, Bowling Alone famously came out 25 years ago. We live in a world where people have, have not experienced community in, in a, in, in, in a powerful way. I don't mean message boards. I mean real community. And I think you have a sense of this 'cause you, you, you do real community. And that's, and that's what we're talking about here. It's, it's real community, but with some practical tools and techniques, which we'll talk about in a moment. What do you think? Is that a good-
19. LRLenny Rachitsky
  It's great. I'm sold.
20. PTPhyl Terry
  (laughing) Is that a good response? 'Cause I-
21. LRLenny Rachitsky
  I'm sold. I don't, I don't need a job, but I, I wanna join one.
22. PTPhyl Terry
  (laughs)
23. LRLenny Rachitsky
  You also just had a really beautiful way of describing these programs as a, as a safety net for people.
24. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah.
25. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Does that ring a bell?
26. PTPhyl Terry
  If we kind of go up to the 30,000-foot level, like what are we doing here? What's our mission? We're building a private safety net for all those who've been laid off or let go. Look, the gover- we're not gonna do what the government does with, you know, unemployment insurance. We're never gonna be able to do something like that, but the government's never gonna be able to innovate around how to actually look for a job. That's where we come in, right? We are trying to build this, and, you know, we talked about this earlier, Lenny. Creative destruction is this economic concept that sits at the heart of capitalism. It's... Creative destruction basically says under capitalism, it's dynamic. New products and services displace or disrupt old products and services, companies and methods. This, this is... It's why our economy has grown six-fold over the last 100 years. It's remarkable. It's why we have this amazing multi-trillion dollar economy. But it comes with some negative unintended consequences, which is that people both in jobs and out of jobs, they're, they're anxious and fearful and they... There's no program that addresses that. That's what we're going after here. We're trying to be the solve for the unintended consequences of the thing that is so positive in many ways. The... A- and that we as product people love because we get to build new products and displace old products. And, and I'll just say one more thing. The reason you know this creative destruction works so well is if you compare our economy to the late Soviet Union's economy. They were a planned economy with no creative destruction, so there was no innovation and it eventually, it just failed. It just collapsed. It's remarkable. This is a huge country with a massive military and nuclear weapons, but they couldn't make their economy work. Why? Because they didn't have this element. So it's something to celebrate, but as we celebrate it, we need, we need to have something that addresses the negative unintended consequences. And I think it's our... All of those, all of us who benefited from this, I think it's our duty to do something about it.
27. LRLenny Rachitsky
  That is beautiful. You're very good at this.
20:19 – 22:50
The concept of candidate-market fit
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Let's shift to talking about tactics. Let's talk about some of the things that you've shared. So you've mentioned things like candidate market fit, playing to win, uh, go wherever you want to go. Let's pick a few and then dive in.
2. PTPhyl Terry
  Candidate market fit is probably the most important job search tactic in the book, aside from the job search council. And it may be the thing I'm known for (laughs) you know, when I die. "They coined candidate market fit," you know? (laughs) So here's the thing, and this is why this is so important in a down market. You know, when you're looking for a job, you're in a marketplace with supply and demand, you know, characteristics. So if there's a lot of supply, which there is right now in the tech world because there's been a lot of layoffs. You know, the e- the overall economy, there's been net job additions, Lenny, but those have been primarily in healthcare and government. There have been net job losses in tech. And we can talk about why that is, but that's the world that we're in. So if, let's say you're a director of product. Two years ago when the economy was great in tech and the job market was great in tech, you could probably get a VP of product role. Okay? What about today? Well, today your candidate market fit's been pushed out 'cause there's a bunch of VPs of product who are gonna take a director role. Guess what? That means you might not be able to get the director role. You might need to get a senior manager role or whatever. Now, the important thing about this is it's not a personal statement about you. It's the marketplace, and that's what so many people i- i- today in their notes to me said that it was like such a relief for them. While it's hard to figure out your candidate market fit, it's also a relief to know it's not about you. So what I ask people to do is I ask them to first... And I... The first radical step I ask them to take is to think about what they want and what they don't want. Now, you might not think that that's a radical step, Lenny.
3. LRLenny Rachitsky
  (laughs)
4. PTPhyl Terry
  But most people don't do that. When they get laid off, they spray and pray. That's the typical, let me just brrr, you know. You know, wait a minute, just take a moment there. Like, "Oh, don't slow me down." I'm like, "I'm gonna slow you down to go fast." In fact, what our data shows is that the average job search in a job search council, you know, from beginning to end is three months. If you look at the national data for job search, it's three to six months. So we are at the very low end of the national average. So you know, this is not a slow down, you know, uh, take two years, whatever. No, no. M- most people need to put food on the plate, right? So it's a slowdown at first,
22:50 – 24:37
Writing a Mnookin two-pager
1. PTPhyl Terry
  and we as product people should understand this. You want to think about your strategy. You wanna understand the marketplace, you know, customer, the product market fit. You're not gonna just go brrr, you know. You're gonna iterate. First step, what do you want and what don't you want? That's the Menukin two-pager named after Alison Menukin, who was a member of one of our product councils. So we run product councils and general management CEO councils for people in jobs. That's a paid program that companies pay for. It's out of that program helping those people that I developed this methodology that we're now as a community giving to the world, right? So Alison, she was the GM at, uh, Intuit, and then she spun out a division and ran it as CEO and she's now a professor at the Harvard Business School. And about 15 years ago, she was in transition and we talked and she created and we created this, this thing we call now the Menukin two-pager. (laughs) I told her, "Alison, I'm gonna make your name famous." That's my job. I love it.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  That's great news.
3. PTPhyl Terry
  She's wonderful. And, um, it's just a simple thing. What do you like? What don't you like? And you share it, you create it, and then you share it in your council. And here's something cool, Lenny. Like, let's say you and I are in a job search council. You share yours and I share mine. Now, you say a few things about what you don't like. I'm like, "Hot damn, I also don't like those. I forgot. I gotta add that." Or you say a thing about what you like and like, "Oh, wow, no, that's really important to me and I left that out." You know, so that's part of the shared learning environment. I'm asking you to do these but with others who are you're walking it through. Now, once you have done that Menukin two-pager, and it's a draft. You don't have to get it fine.Just an ini- and not everyone knows exactly what they want, by the way. This is important, especially younger people, but sometimes mid-career people too. They're like, "Oh, I'm not..." So I don't, I'm not asking you to make a final decision. No, no. Th- this, we're gonna iterate, okay? We're product people.
24:37 – 30:12
Conducting listening tours
1. PTPhyl Terry
  We're gonna iterate. So we're gonna take this Manookin two-pager, this draft that we shared with our counsel, and we're gonna go out and do a listening tour, because guess what? In the job search, we're the product. We're our skills and experience. That's the product that we're bringing to market, so we have to go see what the market wants. We don't... Now, we have a sense of what we want, but what does the market want, and what are some of our trusted friends, what do they think about what I want and what I'm a fit for? And what do they think I'm a fit for now, given the market conditions that we have? Right? Now, I will tell you, people are terrified to do the listening tour. They're like, "I don't know, what am I gonna hear from people?" 'Cause I ask them to ask the golden question, you know, "Well, if you were in my shoes, how would you approach this?" I call that the golden question. It's such a creative question. It really opens the conversation. But they think, oh no, people are gonna tell me all this stuff. You know, most of the people will tell you this. Once in a while, you get a helpful piece of critique. Oh, you're... You- you make everything a priority, in which case nothing is, you know, and, and you can work on that. Super helpful to know. We all have stuff to work on. But I will tell you, once people do the listening tour, they're blown away. The love... I mean, the people who are in jobs, they love, they love helping others if it's done well, because guess what? They're also anxious themselves and they wanna give back. They wanna feel like, you know, they're supporting people. And the... You actually end up, and we're not talking about this, but when you ask someone for help well, you've done your homework, you're thoughtful, they wanna help you even more.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Hmm.
3. PTPhyl Terry
  They become invested in you. So the secret about the listening tour is that not only are you getting sort of market research, customer feedback on your fit, you're also creating a whole group of listening posts, people who are invested in your success.
4. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Just to clarify on that specific point to this listening tour, you write this Manookin, Manookin two-pager, which basically describes, uh, what you want, what you don't want, goals you have, what you hate, uh, and the listening tour is find, uh, colleagues, friends, people that are other, say, product managers and get their feedback on what you want, what you don't want, what you hate, what your goals aren't.
5. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah, and what, and what they're seeing in the market, what they think you're a fit for.
6. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Ah, I see. Got it. So it's like-
7. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah.
8. LRLenny Rachitsky
  ... "Oh, this is unrealistic. You're not gonna get this job."
9. PTPhyl Terry
  That's right.
10. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Like, looking for that ?
11. PTPhyl Terry
  And we see both things, Lenny.
12. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
13. PTPhyl Terry
  So some people underestimate, you know, their fit. Others overestimate it, or don't recognize that changed market condition, right? The uh, the other thing I'll say is that in the book, I have three different kinds of structured listening tour conversations. One, I call reverse exit interviews. This is with people you used to work with before, right? Go ask them, "Hey, what, what did I do well? What do you think my strengths are? What do you think I'm a fit for? Here's what I'm thinking. Do you think I accurately am projecting myself?" The second is your broader network, you know, and that's where I ask you to do the golden question, "If you were in my shoes..." And then third is recruiters. Now, here, here, this is, this is an important hack. Recruiters don't like being barraged with, "Get me a job." They do like someone saying, "Hey, I'm... What do you think I'm a fit for?" Asking their advice. And this is especially true if you've pre-built a relationship with a recruiter. So anyone listening to your podcast right now, if you're in a job, I have a really important message for you. When that recruiter calls, pick up the phone, even if you don't want the job. Help them, uh, network with them, tell, you know, introduce them to other people and build that relationship, because whether you're, you lose a job or whether you decide to start looking when you're in work, you want that relationship.
14. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Hmm.
15. PTPhyl Terry
  Now, Lenny, there's a problem. Many people haven't done that, okay? So part of what we're doing with the Never Search Alone community is we're building a recruiter network. We're finding recruiters who are willing to, in a protected way, do a couple of conversations a month helping people think about their candidate market fit. And if anyone listening to the show is a recruiter, please come join us and, and volunteer. We need more recruiters. I know many of you want to give back and you don't know how. You tell me this. Here's a way to give it back.
16. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm. Love that. Okay, and so the, the i- intent of this is that you're trying to figure out, uh, one, what does the market want?
17. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah.
18. LRLenny Rachitsky
  And how do I be honest about what it wants? Because it may not be... What you want may not exist right now. And then two, help you refine your pitch and how you're approaching it and who you're talking to. Is there anything else that comes out of doing this exercise? 'Cause I think people might be hearing this like, "Ah, so much work. I have enough work to do, all these interviews. Gotta reach out to people. I got, uh, kids and family. Like, I have to write this two-pager now, and listening tour." What other benefits do you get out of this, doing this exercise?
19. PTPhyl Terry
  You build those relationships. So you, you now, you turn people on as listening posts. So you light up your network in a way that you... You know, if you just put, if you just, if you send an email saying, "I want a job," or if you just go, uh, "Hey, do you have a job for me?" people don't know what to say. But if you say, "Hey, if you were in my shoes, how would you approach this? And what do you think, you know, if you were me, you, you know, I should be looking for, and what are you seeing in the market?" Ah, they love that, and now they're really thinking about it.
20. LRLenny Rachitsky
  And if they see a job that might be a fit, they tell you about it.
21. PTPhyl Terry
  They tell you about it, yeah.
22. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Yeah.
23. PTPhyl Terry
  And that, and that gets to candidate mark- 'cause at the end of this, we're gonna,
30:12 – 36:20
Creating a focused candidate-market fit
1. PTPhyl Terry
  we're gonna create a very simple narrow focus candidate market fit statement at the end of the listening tour.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Awesome.
3. PTPhyl Terry
  So once you've now done this listening tour, now you need to create a focus candidate market fit, and this is tough.And this is... Look, again, this is why you need a job search counsel. You need them to be there with you during the listening tour. Not every listening tour conversation will be a home run. Once in a while it'll be a dud. I talk about this in the book. Like warning, there are some curves ahead. Like you could have a conversation... You know, I, I, I... A number of women that I have worked with over the years have gone and done conversations, and they've gotten like, uh, frankly sexist feedback that was not helpful. You know, "You're too poised," or, "You're not poised enough." You know, it's just like this strange set of stuff. So you need your, your counsel to sort of help you parse out and interpret what people are telling you. And at the end of this listening tour, and you never... It never really ends, but once you've done 10 or 15 and you're ready to say, "Okay, I'm gonna take a stab at my candidate market fit," now you need your job search counsel, 'cause you're gon- you're gonna want... Every bone in your body is gonna want that to be expansive, to want it to be broad. Remember, we're product people, at least those of us in the Lenny's Podcast community. What happens when we're building a product? Same thing, right? We want... We can... Ah, we want this product to be for everyone, but we've learned with product market fit that doesn't work, right? We need a narrow, clear focus. Same thing with candidate market fit. So I say to people, and we have this whole grid that we give them, Lenny. You know, "I am a- I'm looking for a director of product role in a healthcare series B startup in San Francisco." You know, like bing, bing, bing. And people say, "Oh, if it's so narrow, I, I, I'm gonna lose out." And, and here's the thing, right? When you're looking for a job, you need a spear and not a net. With a net, everything slips through. Now, part two to this, people are expansive but not reductive. "What are you talking about, Phil?" Here's what I mean. If you give them a specific... If I say to you, "Lenny, I'm looking for a director of product role at a healthcare startup that's a series B in San Francisco." Well, if you see a- another, like financial ser- a fintech startup that's a- in a heavily regulated industry looking for a director of product that's a series B, you're gonna be like, "You know what? Phil is looking for that, but I bet Phil could do that." You can be expansive, but if I told you, "Hey Lenny, I'll take any product job I can," you are never gonna think of me. You're never gonna remember me. You're not gonna be reductive from a broad statement, but you will be expansive from a narrow one. And I'll tell you, Lenny, this is so hard for people, you know? And this is why, again, you need that counsel and you need that broader community. And every week we, every two weeks we do a LinkedIn Live where we address... You know, we, we go over these questions again and again because it goes... If I, if I were in the job search, I'd feel the same way. Even with all the darn research I've done, (laughs) it's really hard.
4. LRLenny Rachitsky
  You, you've been using this metaphor of approaching this like a product person, and this is very much like a product person thinks about new products is there should be a very narrow audience to start with, kind of a wedge or an ICP. When someone's building this, what is a sign they've narrowed it enough? Are there like a certain number of attributes? What tells you that like, cool, this is small now?
5. PTPhyl Terry
  So it's, it's, it's typically three to four attributes. Now, you know, and we give people a whole grid in a set of examples. So we had a woman who was a designer. She was a product designer, right? And what her product market fit was, she was looking for companies that either did not have a design team or needed to reboot one. And so she wasn't talking about stage of business or even industry, but that really plants an image in your mind. You know exactly if you hear about a company looking for... That doesn't have design or looking to reboot design, you're gonna think of her immediately, because after you've done your listening tour and you've created your candidate market fit and your counsel signs off on it, Lenny, this is important, right? Then you go back out to your listening tour and you tell all those people, "Here's now based... Thank you for your help. Here's the candidate market fit I've come up with." Right? And you also post it on LinkedIn. You like tell the whole world, right? Now, will that candidate market fit change over time? Yeah, we're iterative, right? So if you go and go and, and the market is changing, like what was true three months ago may not be true now. Is it getting bet- Like two weeks ago, the mar- the stock market was convinced we're going into a recession and everything crashed. Two weeks later we're like, "Oh no, we're not going into a recession." You know? And that, that affects the psychology of hiring managers and companies, not just psychology, their willingness to open up recs and everything else. So things are changing, so you need to be flexible and adaptive to that, which is also why you need this counsel and why you need to have a good, uh, network around you that you've asked for help from and that are invested in you and can be there for you as you try to keep navigating this.
6. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Just to follow this thread a little bit more, when someone is... If they're, if someone's thinking right now like, "Okay, what is my, what are my attributes?" What are the, what's on that grid roughly? Their stage of company? I imagine there's like-
7. PTPhyl Terry
  Stage of company, industry, level of role and function, of course, and, uh, culture.
8. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Is there like a set of options you have of type of culture? (laughs)
9. PTPhyl Terry
  Basically everyone wants a good culture. (laughs)
10. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Yeah, yeah, exactly. (laughs)
11. PTPhyl Terry
  And-
12. LRLenny Rachitsky
  So-and-so culture.
13. PTPhyl Terry
  I mean it, you know, sometimes, sometimes it can be very specific. Like I need a company that has a, a particular kind of policy for kids or, you know, whatever, you know, remote or hybrid or whatever, you know, that kind of element, right? But I, I tell people, you know, make it three, make it simple. This should not be paragraphs and paragraphs. It should be a one sentence statement. You can do a, a longer thing that you can then share with people when you're getting in a conversation, but you want something simple that people go, "Oh, Lenny, yeah, looking for a chief product officer role," you know?
14. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Yeah, it's exactly like you want your product to feel too.
15. PTPhyl Terry
  Exactly.
16. LRLenny Rachitsky
  I need a, a SOC 2 compliance, how I'm gonna think about
17. NANarrator
  That's
18. PTPhyl Terry
  what I'm talking about! (laughs)
19. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Yeah, exactly. (laughs)
36:20 – 40:37
Advice on finding the right stage of company for you
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Um... Okay, so I'm thinking through this list here.
2. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah.
3. LRLenny Rachitsky
  So I think s- s- level and role, I imagine people kind of get a pretty good sense of where they want to be. Stage. Any advice for someone to decide what stage?... is right for them.
4. PTPhyl Terry
  I mean, if I were coaching someone, which, as you know, I do, we would, we would talk a lot about this. But when I'm ... In the book and in the community, I say to figure out stage, again, I want you to rely on your job search counsel, and your network, and your own experience, right? And it becomes pretty ... People usually have a pretty good sense. Like, who was I talking to recently? Like, you know, "I just, I need, I need a big company," you know? Whereas maybe like, "I don't want that, I want a startup." Okay. And what I will tell you is that one thing to keep in mind right now is that there are more jobs in the startup world than there are in the established company world, okay? In the tech world, for product people. That's where new job creation has been happening. It's slower than it was before, but it's mo- ... The big companies, they've just been shedding people, they've just been, you know, throwing them off, right? Whereas the smaller companies, there's more opportunity there. Now, that doesn't mean that if, that you ca- ... If you can't stand working at a startup, you sh- ... I'm not telling you, you should go there, necessarily. But I will say this, and again, if you need to put food on the table, right? Like, so we were talking to someone recently, they were, they, they had moved to a new city and then were laid off the next day. They moved for the company, and then they were laid off the next day. Okay? And they're like, "Okay, I need to get a job." I said, "Okay. Yeah, sure." You know, "Just know that it," you know, if, if you're gonna get a, any job, just to have while you still look for a long, uh, uh, the job you really want, there's just know that that's a hard, that's a hard path.
5. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
6. PTPhyl Terry
  I understand it, and I support it, and it makes sense, and it's hard. It's harder than you realize. And you absolutely have to keep your (laughs) job search counsel, you know? 'Cause otherwise, you're gonna, you're gonna get lost.
7. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Interesting.
8. PTPhyl Terry
  Can I share one story about candidate market fit-
9. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Ooh, please.
10. PTPhyl Terry
  ... that might be helpful to people? I was coaching, he was an EVP at a traditional media company, but on the digital side, running their streaming business. But it was very much an old, you know, you know, economy, old media company. It was not, you know, this was not a A player in the streaming space. And they smartly recognized that if they stayed there, they were gonna end up in a pretty bad cul-de-sac. And, and, and by the way, that company's had layoffs, and like they, they would've ... So they decided they wanted to go work for a company like Netflix or Apple TV, right? But ... And this someone who ran hundreds of people, corner office, limo, first class, you know what I mean? In the airplane. What was their candidate market fit? They went out and did this, their candidate market fit, if they were gonna join a top streamer, was as an individual contributor, Lenny. That was the ... 'Cause those guys, like, they didn't respect much of what they brought from traditional media. And if he had done this search alone, he would not have done that. But to his credit, he decided to take that, and it transformed his career. He's now someone who had a lot of management experience, but also tied now with one of the top streamers. He's just, he's just done incredibly well. But that-
11. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
12. PTPhyl Terry
  ... is really hard to do.
13. LRLenny Rachitsky
  So in this example, when you talk about candidate market fit, it's, uh, a big part of it is what the market wants from you.
14. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah.
15. LRLenny Rachitsky
  It's not like he's like, "I'm gonna go IC." He just realized as he was going through the process-
16. PTPhyl Terry
  That's right.
17. LRLenny Rachitsky
  ... this is where I'm actually gonna succeed.
18. PTPhyl Terry
  And he talked to people, and I helped him network with people in Silicon Valley. They were just-
19. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
20. PTPhyl Terry
  ... honest with him.
21. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
22. PTPhyl Terry
  You know, and that's what Justin was talking about. This can be hard and humiliating at times to figure out. You know, we had, we had another person who was a chief product officer in a startup. And she was great. She helped me with the book, she was an early reader. She's a mar- member of your community, Lenny. And she realized that she wasn't getting the right product training. She was the only product person, and she didn't really know (laughs) what she was doing. Well, what was her candidate market fit? It was an IC. It was an IC role, individual contributor role, at a larger, you know, tech company. And to her credit, she realized that was the right path for her learning, you know? And she did this before the shoot (laughs) really hit the fan in the tech world, fortunately. (laughs) Just to not swear. So this is,
40:37 – 45:30
Identifying your unique path
1. PTPhyl Terry
  you know, I talk about this in the book, like sometimes you need a two-step strategy. Like, let's say you wanna be a VP of product at a, at a top streaming company, or at whatever it is, you know? But you are not a fit for that today. So the question is, how do you step there? I tell a story in the book about guy who'd been a VP of product. He wanted a COO role. He was not a fit. He was not a fit, Lenny. And it was very clear the market was telling him. He did the listening tour, but he came back to me and said, "I don't care. I want a COO role." So he interviewed for 50 companies, right? 50. Can you imagine? It took him a year and a half. The 50th company hired him. 10 days later, they're a public company, massive fraud, and they went bankrupt. I said, "Okay, like, you are n- ... Uh, the market is clear. The only COO role (laughs) you're a fit for is a company that's about to go bankrupt." Like, and he's like, "Okay." And he went back to VP of product role. I said, "If you wanna become the COO from that role where you are today, one of the great paths is do it from that job inside a company," okay? And that's what he ended up doing. It was a two-step strategy. He couldn't go straight there. I'm not talking about people's innate worth, Lenny. I believe every human is a worthwhile person. And I, I deeply believe in belonging and giving people support, you know, and spreading love and creating community. But I also believe in being practical and realistic. And like, I, I didn't create this situation. I'm just trying to report to you what the situation is and how you can manage it so that you don't get stuck. I can't ... How many people have you seen, Lenny, who get stuck? They, you know, they get stuck in a bad job, they're not learning, and then they can't go from there. They get into their 40s and 50s, and it is tough. A number of people in the job search community who are in their 50s, 60s, whatever, they're dealing with ageism, they're dealing with they're not close enough to the technology frontier. You know? You've gotta get closer to the technology frontier, even if that means you're gonna go from the EVP to an IC role.That's how creative destruction works. The closer you are to the technology frontier, the more new jobs and opportunities there are.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Yeah.
3. PTPhyl Terry
  The further you are from the technology frontier, the worse you're gonna be over the long run. You might be able to get a better sounding job in the short term, but you're gonna, you're gonna find yourself stuck.
4. LRLenny Rachitsky
  I love your, uh, Venn diagram of just, like, warmth and support and belonging, and also just, like, straight real talk, "Here's the reality."
5. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah.
6. LRLenny Rachitsky
  What a, what a combo.
7. PTPhyl Terry
  Oh, thank you.
8. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Uh, this is such powerful advice and I think people might be feeling like, "Yeah, I get it, but man, I don't wanna be a IC a- again. I've been a director, I've been a VP." That sounds really not great. Is there anything else you can share to help people get past that of like, "Okay, maybe I really should be looking for an IC role again"?
9. PTPhyl Terry
  Again, if you're, if you're in a job search council and also you're in our Slack community, what you're gonna find is that you're not alone. So that's a big thing. It's not just, it's not you, there's not something wrong with you. This is the market that we're in. And by the way, the more relationships you build, the better you do your listening tour. One of the things I tell, one of the tactics, Lenny, I tell people is you gotta send out an update note every month to all of your network that you've talked to. And it might be, "I don't have a job yet," or, "I don't even have any news, but I just wanted to let you know I'm still going and I appreciate everything you've done for me and I'm still looking for X." That could be it. You know, and Justin, in his note, I re- referenced him earlier as a chief product officer. In his note on LinkedIn today he said, you know, "Phill told me to keep people updated and I didn't do it enough." And don't make that mistake. You gotta do that. Lenny, I, I, I, I, I met with a group of, of about 50 job seekers recently who've been in the Never Search Alone community for more than a year. Okay? They're struggling. You know, again, I don't have a magic wand, but I, as I talked to them, what was happening, they stopped networking. They left their job search council. You know? They weren't updating their candidate market fit to the changing market condition. I'm like, "You have to do everything. You can't get passive." One of the concepts, Lenny, I talk about is you've gotta be the I in village. Be like, there's no I in team. Well, there is an I in village. Okay? (laughs) And the I in village is that when I'm saying you've gotta ask for help, you gotta be part of job search council committee, you have to be independent and accountable and responsible. I'm not saying you're, you're not gonna become passive independent. Uh, no. This is how you become more independent. This is how you stand up and be more accountable and responsible. This is how you can do the best search possible in the market conditions that we have.
10. LRLenny Rachitsky
  So the advice here is if you're struggling finding a job, this is a solution. Join a council, bring people on board with you, update people on your progress. Like, these are the things that'll break you out of that funk that you're probably in.
11. PTPhyl Terry
  And it will still be hard.
12. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Hmm.
13. PTPhyl Terry
  It will still be hard. I, I, I wish that weren't true, Lenny.
45:30 – 49:07
Navigating tough job markets
1. PTPhyl Terry
  Now this will, uh, now I will tell you that, look, what's the difference between now and the dot-com depression of 2000, 2001, and 2? The difference is that we were a much smaller industry then. And people had been in web jobs only for a couple years. Where now we've got people who are in jobs for 10, 15 or more years in tech who have never seen a downturn, have never seen a market like this. We've never seen a tech market like this. It will improve at some point, but right now it's tough. And I can't change that. But I can provide tools, I can provide community, I can provide heart and smarts so that you can get the best job you can get right now.
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Speaking of advice, is there anything else along the lines of candidate market fit before we move on to more tactics?
3. PTPhyl Terry
  Just that it, you know, you're, uh, again, that you're gonna, you're gonna resist the narrowness of it.
4. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
5. PTPhyl Terry
  I- in every bone in your body, just know that that's what everyone is feeling. But go watch, I have this great, um, video online of, uh, he was a VP of product. He, he, uh, he was initially masked, but VP of product at Nike. I met him through Marty and Chris at, at Silicon Valley Product Group. He joined one of our product councils, and then he decided to leave. And he was like, "Phill, I love you, but this candidate market fits stuff, no. Uh, you're wrong." (laughs) "It needs to be broad." And so he went out and he actually spoke to a bunch of VCs and like, "We don't have any idea what to do with you. You have to tell us something really specific." He was like, "Oh, man." So he went, he is like, "Phill, you..." (laughs) So he redid it. Bam, bam, bam.
6. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
7. PTPhyl Terry
  I tell another story in the book about Didi. She was a chief data officer. She... Of a large company. She want- uh, in tech, wanted to become a CTO. She had a technology and engineering background as well as data. She spent a year spinning her wheels alone. I said, "Join a job search council." She figured out her candidate market fit. Well, it turns out she was a great fit for a mid-size regional bank CTO, right? And within three weeks, she had three offers. A year, nothing. Within three weeks, three offers. So I can't, I can't guarantee that you're gonna get three offers within three weeks, right? I'm not saying that. Some of you, it might take you six months or a year. And the more senior you are, Lenny, the longer it is.
8. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
9. PTPhyl Terry
  If you're a CEO, it's gonna take you a long time unless you happen to be the CEO of Chipotle. (laughs)
10. LRLenny Rachitsky
  (laughs)
11. PTPhyl Terry
  Who just became the CEO of Starbucks. (laughs)
12. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Yeah.
13. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah.
14. LRLenny Rachitsky
  I know you're creating a, a page that we're gonna link people to, which is, I think, or is it Phill.org/Lenny?
15. PTPhyl Terry
  Yes.
16. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Okay. Cool. And is it gonna have this template to help you work out your kind of market fit?
17. PTPhyl Terry
  Uh, there'll be a link to where you can download not only that template, but all the templates.
18. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Okay.
19. PTPhyl Terry
  You don't, you don't even have to join a job search council to get all this stuff. I, I, you know, I hope you do. You know, again, it's free. (laughs)
20. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Hmm.
21. PTPhyl Terry
  And people are like, I, I will say early on, people were like, "What, what's the trick here? You, you know, this is free and you're gonna charge me." No. No. This is free. I feel very... I've dedicated... Why am I making it free? Because one, I can, which is cool. Second, this is in honor of my mom. And third-I wanna create a private safety net for, for the ravages of creative destruction. It's great, a lot of positive consequences, but there's negative ones. And I just don't love the idea of charging people.
22. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
23. PTPhyl Terry
  For this. I charge people for other things, but not for this.
24. LRLenny Rachitsky
  And we'll link, we'll link people to the things you charge for so they can support you and benefit you in other ways. Or benefit themselves in other ways.
25. PTPhyl Terry
  Benefit them and me, that'd be awesome. (laughs)
49:07 – 53:36
Playing to win
1. PTPhyl Terry
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  (laughs) Let's talk about some other tactics. You mentioned this idea of playing to win, and I think within that there's this kind of OKR and mission tactic. Let's talk about that.
3. PTPhyl Terry
  50%, Lenny, of the people who read my book, join a job search council, and follow everything I've described, like the people that don't do what I'm about to tell you, okay? It is the biggest mistake and miss, and I'm really sorry about this. And I'm on the, you know, I'm on a campaign, right? So here's the thing. When you start to interview and negotiate, you've got to be in charge. People think when I'm s- I, I talk, this is collaborative coaching, I want you to play to win, not, not to lose. Now when people hear me say that, they translate it in their brains into, "Oh, Phil is saying that I've gotta be a ruthless negotiator." Uh, if anyone who knows me know (laughs) like ruthless is just not how I am, you know?
4. LRLenny Rachitsky
  (laughs)
5. PTPhyl Terry
  (laughs) Uh, at least in this sense. Um, and no, no, I'm like, "What I want you to do," and this is, it's, it's, it's gr- it's a great tactic that we stumbled upon, and it's one of the best tactics in the book, and I really hope we can get the other half of the people who are in, in the community to, to do this and, and your listeners who aren't involved who decide to join also do this. When you start interviewing, I want you to create your own version of the job description. I want you to go privately, Lenny, and I want you to create what I call a job mission with OKRs. Now most job descriptions, they suck, Lenny. The company doesn't know what the F they're doing. They don't know exactly what they're looking for. And so, but I'm not telling you to say that to them, just to be clear. I'm telling you, I want you to create your own job mission with OKRs. This is key. It needs to be with OKRs. Now your audience knows what an OKR is, objectives and key results. I assume I don't need to explain that. It needs to be something where you I- are saying, "Here's what I think I'm gonna be accountable for. Here's what I'm going to actually, the outcomes I'm going to deliver." Right?
6. LRLenny Rachitsky
  At the company that you join?
7. PTPhyl Terry
  At the company you join.
8. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
9. PTPhyl Terry
  Now you keep it private at first because drafting it, this thing has multiple benefits. The first is drafting it will help you understand and develop great interview questions to ask them to clarify, what is this job? And they'll be impressed by that. Okay? The second thing is once you've had a couple of interviews and it's a draft now, it's not a full final thing, I, and this is so important. I want you to pull the hiring manager aside and say, "Hey Lenny," you're the hiring manager, "I've thought about what the role is. I wanna make sure I'm understanding it correctly. Can I share something with you?" I don't want you to email it. I want you to do a phone call, Zoom, or coffee or whatever. And Lenny, can you imagine how hiring managers feel when they get this job mission with OKRs? I was talking to a senior guy at Amazon who's hired more than 2,000 product leaders and others. He said, "Phil, no one in..." And this was a, he's part of our product count. He said, "No one in my life has ever done this. If someone did this, it would blow my mind. I would hire them on the spot." And that, that's the message I want these folks to understand. But we talk about silver medals, Lenny. In, in the job search, the silver medal sucks. At the Olympics, hey, it's pretty good, you get to be on the podium. But guess what? Silver medal is, it's almost worse than, and 'cause you were almost there. And we have a number of videos and other things where we talk about the difference in many cases between getting the silver and gold has been doing the job mission with OKRs. Companies say, "This is what distinguished you. This is what let..." We were like, "Uh, w- who, who is this person?" They're already, you know, thinking about what they're accountable and the outcomes and, and naturally they're thinking about it better than I am, which is fantastic, right? So it, it raises the odds, but it also does something if you present it, again, Lenny, you're the hiring manager, I show you my job mission OKRs. And you, and you're like, "Oh, this is fantastic." But you also say, "Oh, you know, this thing you have here, this OKR, this isn't part of the role." Like, "Oh, that's helpful to understand." But this thing over, that you don't have listed is. "Oh, really?" Lenny, how many times we're gonna, I'm gonna ask people in the audience to raise their hands. How many times have you taken a job A that turned out to be job B?
10. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Hm.
11. PTPhyl Terry
  Everybody just raised their hands, Lenny. (laughs) You know? So this helps to address that. Right?
12. LRLenny Rachitsky
  You bet.
13. PTPhyl Terry
  So and then
53:36 – 1:05:12
Negotiation tactics for job offers
1. PTPhyl Terry
  if you get the offer, and again, this raises the odds of getting the offer, it then sets you up to negotiate what I call the four legs of the negotiations tool. This is not hard negotiation. This is something the company loves. I actually say, "You know, you get an offer and it's like, whatever, $250,000 base with a 30% bonus." You know, this may be a director or whatever, or a senior manager. Um, if, you know, maybe it's an 800 base if, you know, if you're more senior, whatever it might be. I want you to go and talk to the hiring manager if possible. Not the, hopefully not the recruiter, that we'll talk about that. And I want you to say, "This is great. I wanna talk about money, but before we do, I wanna think about some of the things that will set me up to su- succeed in this role." Like, you know, I've thought about like, I think there's like $10 million of tech debt here. Does that sound right to you? And are we on board that we're gonna, like that'll be priority one to eliminate the d- the first day I start the job? We had two CPOs both interviewing at private equity firms about, uh, private equity owned companies about the same size, SaaS companies.One had tech debt of 20 million, one had tech debt of 10. I told them both, "You got to get that, you know, talk about that in the..." So one talked about it in the negotiation and the company was like, "Oh, that's great." They wrote a check on day one. Six months later, the tech debt was relieved, they, you know, updated the systems, they were able to get into innovation. A year later, they got promoted to a GM role in addition to their CPO role, and then a year after that, they were being interviewed for the CEO role. The other person, where there was 10 million of tech debt, was kind of shy about asking, sort of mentioned it, they were like, "Oh, we'll talk about it when you get here," but they, they didn't really commit and they never addressed it. One month, six months, 12 months, 18 months later, he's looking for a job. This is the opportunity cost of not being set up for success. Now again, don't hear this as antagonistic. We're not antagonistic here. We're trying to say what's going to help me succeed. So one CPO recently was negotiating like, "I'm not just talking about budget and, um, uh, for tech debt or whatever." Like, if you're a senior person, like, do you think that team needs more training? Do you need to send them over to Marty's workshops, over to my product councils, right? Get them into Lenny's community. Like he, the company was like, "You're negotiating the training budget of the team that you don't even run yet, while we're talking about your salary? Who are you? What? We love you! We're going to pay you even more. We're going to pay you any-"
2. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
3. PTPhyl Terry
  They're like, companies love this and even if you're a junior person, you're not going to negotiate budget, but you can talk about, like, mentorship, professional development, what kinds of, you know, will you be able to attend conferences or training? Again, and this is like ... And we're not hard, we're not hard negotiating this. We're saying, "Here's what I think I'm going to need to accomplish the OKRs that we've already agreed upon."
4. LRLenny Rachitsky
  This is really cool advice. I want to make sure people super understand it. So an example of tech debt, so this person asked, "I need $10 million budget in order to address this tech debt."
5. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah.
6. LRLenny Rachitsky
  I see. So it's not like, "I believe we will save $10 million if we spend on time." It's like, "Here's how much this team will need and I will need to be successful."
7. PTPhyl Terry
  I'm going to need a check for $10 million on day one.
8. LRLenny Rachitsky
  (laughs)
9. PTPhyl Terry
  Okay?
10. LRLenny Rachitsky
  I can see why someone would (laughs) would be shy asking for that. Or that was, that was 20 million actually. That was the one that asked for it, right?
11. PTPhyl Terry
  That was the 20 million, that was right.
12. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Yeah.
13. PTPhyl Terry
  And, and again, it was not ... Yes, people feel really shy about this. They're like ... But the company was like, loved that they understood what it was going to take.
14. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
15. PTPhyl Terry
  'Cause I will tell you what, if the company doesn't like this, it's a huge red flag.
16. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
17. PTPhyl Terry
  Huge red flag. It means they're not serious, right? But if, if you're talking to them, "Hey, I think we're going to need ... I'm going to need to, you know, train the team, I'm going to need, I'm going to need to hire three more ICs," or you know, the, the design function is weak or you know, whatever it might be. You know, do you ... And, and you're saying, "Do you agree? Do you see it this way?" You know, and, and they're like, "Yeah, that's right." Good, you know. Wow, you're already like bang, bang, bang. We haven't even finished negotiating your salary.
18. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Hm.
19. PTPhyl Terry
  And th- this is so counterintuitive, Lenny. You know, I'm sort of, I'm sort of the queen of counterintuitive stuff. candidate market fit is counterintuitive, right? (laughs)
20. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
21. PTPhyl Terry
  But this is as well. People think, people think they're going to lose the opportunity when it actually wins them. Now, a tr- of course if they marched in and said, "Damn it, I, you have to do X and Y or I..." That's not what I'm talking about. Like, "Hey, here's how I see it. This is the OKRs. I think we're going to need this. Does that make sense to you?" But you know, and you're having a collaborative conversation about how you need to be set up for success. And by the way, if they say, if they say, "No, I hear you, I believe you, but no," then you make a judgment decision. Like, I'm not always saying you turn that away. It's like, "Well, especially if you need a job, right?" But you're now going in eyes wide open, okay? You, you're not going to be able to relieve that tech debt initially.
22. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
23. PTPhyl Terry
  You're going to have to work within that constraint.
24. LRLenny Rachitsky
  So I love that we're getting into negotiation advice, by the way, 'cause I was hoping we'd get there. So the advice here is identify something that you'll need to be successful and your fi- your finding is that when you ask for, and it seems like a financial investment as a part of you joining ends up leading to a better, uh, comp for you.
25. PTPhyl Terry
  Yes. And I will say that there's less negotiating room today than there was two years ago because of the market that we're in. And the data all bears that out and we see that. But, but I, but here's, here's the other piece of data. So I want you to ask for things that tie back to the OKRs that you've already agreed on with the hiring managers. This is th- this is, this is how this thing connects together, right? It's like LEGOs. And then, (laughs) and then we come to the money and you've had this lovely conversation. You've shown them how much you're invested in succeeding. That's what you're ... See, Lenny, the problem that every hiring manager has is distinguishing be someone between someone who is a good talker and someone who can actually make things happen. You know this, right? And this is true every, from, you know, individual contributor to CEO. By doing the job mission with OKRs and by showing them that draft, you are showing them, not telling them, showing them that you take initiative, that you're accountable, that you can make things happen. And then in the job nego- and the salary negotiation, by talking to them about what you need to succeed, you're showing them that you really want to succeed. And guess who that benefits? That benefits the company, obviously.
26. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
27. PTPhyl Terry
  So I want you to do that first and then, okay, so then let's talk money. Now, 87% of the time, Lenny, when you ask for more money, you get it. Now that's a, that's a long s- uh, longitudinal statistic, meaning over many years. It, it's going to be lower in a moment like this. But you can still ask. And i- uh, people are afraid to ask. A- again, don't ask in some shark way like some of my friends in business might do, some, you know, M&A negotiators, whatever. No, ask like, you know, "Are you open?" Unless it's a deal breaker. You know, l- if it's a deal breaker, just be open about that. But if it's not, like let's say they offered you whatever it is, 400 base-... with, you know, up to 100% whatever and some RS user options, blah, blah. And you really wanted 450. Lenny, you can say, "Hey, are you open to 450? That I... That was really what I was hoping for when I think, you know, I'm worth. Are you open to that? Is that something we can talk about?" And most of the time they say yes. You... And they may not even get you... They might not get you to 450 but they'll be like, "You know what? Yes. Thank you. We could... Let- let me get back to you." You know? Or, "No, we could go to 420. Does that work?" You know? Great.
28. LRLenny Rachitsky
  You make it sound very easy. Uh, I could do that.
29. PTPhyl Terry
  Here, here's the thing-
30. LRLenny Rachitsky
  I hate negotiating. Yeah, yeah.
1:05:12 – 1:10:48
The gratitude house exercise
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
  While we're on this topic of negotiation and comp, is there anything else there that you might wanna share that might be helpful to people?
2. PTPhyl Terry
  In the book, before you do the listening tour, I ask people to do what I call the gratitude house exercise, which is to think about who are all the people in your life who have helped you get to where you are today. I mean, you could talk about your third grade teacher, you know what I mean? Like, e- I'm just talking... I'm... I just want you to do that. And I want you to do that because everyone has this idea that they're alone. We have all received enormous help to do what we're doing, what- whoever we are. You know, even, even the hermit in the desert was born to a mother, okay? (laughs) You know? And they did not make it themselves for their first several years of their lives, right? We all are born of mothers. We all are born of families and communities, some better or worse. I had a pretty tough childhood, but you know, there was love. And, and I want you to do that gratitude house exercise and then it can sometimes surface people that you'll go talk to in the listening tour. Might not talk to your third grade teacher, but you'll go talk to some people. Now, when you're going in to interview, I, I, I ask people to take a moment and re- reflect- reread the gratitude house exercise, remind themselves of everyone they're carrying with them, to imagine that they're on your shoulders. All of those people, including your job search counsel of course, and everyone you've talked to in your listening tour. You're not walking in with 50 people, Lenny. Okay? Even people who tell me, "I don't know anyone." No, that is not true. You know, you might not know as many people as I do, okay? That's understandable.My job is to know people, okay? But everyone knows some people, and you bring them with you, even metaphorically, so that you feel not alone when you're going into that interview. The other thing I say with the interview and the negotiations is you've got to go do a debrief right afterwards, Lenny. Because we all have these cockamamie ideas about what happened. We think we did terribly, when we did well, we think... You know. And we need to talk it through with someone else who can help us, like, parse exactly what happened and really where we're at, you know. I had a woman who was a director of product, she was interviewing for a VP of product role. She texted me after the interview, "Oh, I screwed it up," this and that, this and that. "But they really liked me and we're going to go to the next round." I'm like, "Wait a minute, wait a minute." (laughs) Something is not true here. (laughs) Like, this is just your own imposter syndrome and inner critic. That's another exercise we ask people to do, by the way, is what we call the inner critic exercise. Name the critic, you know. Mine is Tub Tor. I was, I was overweight when I was a kid and my dad called me Tub Tor.
3. LRLenny Rachitsky
  I learned that tactic from, uh, Julie Cameron, from, uh, The Artist's Way. She recommends that-
4. PTPhyl Terry
  Yes.
5. LRLenny Rachitsky
  ... as well, if you've seen that.
6. PTPhyl Terry
  She's great. Love that book. By the way, it's on my bookshelf back there.
7. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Oh.
8. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah.
9. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Love that. I think, think I called mine Jim.
10. PTPhyl Terry
  (laughs)
11. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Totally. Yeah. Uh, we had a really good episode, I don't know if you saw, with Joe Hudson, and he has a whole, uh-
12. PTPhyl Terry
  Really?
13. LRLenny Rachitsky
  ... series of advice on, on your inner critic. And his point, and I will point to it, is your inner critic is always lying to you.
14. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah.
15. LRLenny Rachitsky
  And-
16. PTPhyl Terry
  I did see that episode.
17. LRLenny Rachitsky
  ... and telling you bullsh- Yeah, yeah.
18. PTPhyl Terry
  I love it. We, and we all have it. Like people think... Oh, yeah. Like everyone. And, and that's what I love about this moment we're in too, Lenny. You know, I started in therapy in the 1980s. In the 1980s, you did not share that you were in therapy, okay?
19. LRLenny Rachitsky
  (laughs)
20. PTPhyl Terry
  Today, we have tennis stars talking about their emotional wellbeing and their therapy and how they're doing. Like, we have prof- You know, pe- It's beginning to normalize in some really important ways, that, you know, emotions are, are... They're not bad, and they're actually really important to the decision-making system. But they can also, they can go off in certain ways that, that can, uh, that can really hurt us.
21. LRLenny Rachitsky
  And it feels like these councils are like a light therapy for people.
22. PTPhyl Terry
  Yes. I wouldn't say that... I would never want to say the word therapy, because of course, that implies-
23. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm.
24. PTPhyl Terry
  ... certification and training. But there's a, a therapeutic aspect to it.
25. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
26. PTPhyl Terry
  I feel comfortable saying that, yeah.
27. LRLenny Rachitsky
  (laughs) Okay, um, so on this gratitude house, just coming back there real quick.
28. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah.
29. LRLenny Rachitsky
  The reason that is powerful is that gives you confidence to ask for stuff, to believe in yourself, you're worth something when you're asking.
30. PTPhyl Terry
  Gives you confidence to walk in there as who you are, Lenny.
1:10:48 – 1:19:18
The power of asking for help
1. LRLenny Rachitsky
  So we're on this topic of playing to win, and-
2. PTPhyl Terry
  Yeah.
3. LRLenny Rachitsky
  ... what you just said is kind of along those same lines, is just remember, you're playing to win. You're not trying to lose, you're not trying to-
4. PTPhyl Terry
  Not lose.
5. LRLenny Rachitsky
  ... need to win, right?
6. PTPhyl Terry
  Just be really... "I just, I just can't say anything, I, I just can't rock the boat." I'm not asking you to rock the boat.
7. LRLenny Rachitsky
  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
8. PTPhyl Terry
  I'm asking you to take charge and demonstrate the power of who you are, your... These companies will love it.
9. LRLenny Rachitsky
  So when I asked a lot of people what to ask you, what you're amazing at, uh, one of the most common themes is, uh, really good at just asking for help and teaching people how to ask for help, which is actually an, a topic for a recent newsletter post by one of my newsletter fellows, Natalie. So let's talk about it. Talk about why this is so important, why, why you spend so much thought and time on this topic.
10. PTPhyl Terry
  First, I want to shout out my mom again. So my mom's name, her nickname was Chic, C-H-I-C. Her, her friends and family, and I dedicate the book to Chic. And she started that first council in 1960, and she asked for help. Of course, she taught me to ask for help and to start councils. And o- of course, when I was very young, uh, I didn't want to do what my mother said, right? (laughs) "You're not..." But, um, I ended up in a, I ended up in a bad situation, and she's like, "You've got to ask for help," and I asked my high school teachers for help. I was, I was an alcoholic at the age of 12, Lenny, and thing- things were really spir- spiraling downwards, and I was no longer living with my mom. There's a whole long story about that. And, um, I was in a pretty unsupportive position, and, uh, she's like, "You've got to ask for help," and so I did. And OMG, Lenny. I mean, it just... Uh, you know, I, I was carried by these teachers. And I also have to give a shout-out, and I'm going to cry now, to my girlfriend in high school, Karen Kavanaugh, whose family had very few resources. They were struggling, but they, they made a home for me, and I couldn't have done it without them and some of my other friends and my teachers. Like, you know, I was, I, I was... You know, I worked a full-time job by the age of 16.And I was going through high school, and I was in a tough situation, and it was, uh, I mean, it was transformative, Lenny. It was transformative. And did I feel like asking for help was a weakness? I did. You know? Did I think people were gonna think less of me? Absolutely. I thought all the things that people think. And, it is not what happens. Now, there, there is a warning here. If you ask for help poorly, and I'm gonna define that, it does end up leading to bad consequences. What do I mean by asking for help poorly? I mean, if you don't do your homework, if you're asking for someone to do it for you rather than advise and support and give you perspective, we all know that. Right? Like, I get, I get these emails, Lenny, so when I started the, the Product Councils, Marissa Mayer was a founding member, right? Marissa Mayer at Google and Maryam Mohi did Amazon. And as Marissa's reputation grew, suddenly everybody wanted to talk to Marissa. So, I got all these random emails from people I've never met, "Oh, I've got software. Would you please introduce me to Marissa? I think she'd want to, you know, uh, license it or, you know, buy it, uh, at Google." You know, I'm like, "Who are you? What?" That is the dumbest... Of course I'm never gonna answer that, right? If they had reached out to me and said, "I know you don't know me. I have this small software company. I'm not well-connected, but I, I would love your advice on how to grow this business, and what you would do if you were in my shoes." Which I have never received, Lenny, even though I've written about it and said about... I would have done that phone call. You know, and then if they had said, "Well, can I talk to Marissa?" I'm like, "You have not earned that yet." I, th- that- that's not, that's not a, uh, statement about your worth. It's just you're not ready for that conversation. So, you can do it poorly, but if you do it well, if you've done your homework, you know, and you're open, oh my gosh. There's four counterintuitive rules here. Asking for help is not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of confidence. It both requires confidence and strengthens it, Lenny. That's number one. Two, it's not a taking activity, it's a giving activity. If you do it well, you're actually being giving to the people you ask. This is really counterintuitive, Lenny. This is what I teach in my Product Councils, right? I'm like, "You have to ask for help." They're like, "Ugh." I'm like, "If you ask for help, and you're open and vulnerable, you're a smart person." So, at one point, Marissa came in and said, "Listen, I'm developing a new product. I wanna present it to the board. But I'd like your feedback on it first, and think, you know, what do you guys think? Am I approaching this in the right way?" People were like, "What?" You know, Google was already a public company at this point. Like, wow, that, they were like, it, they were just blown away. They were so happy to help, right? So if you, if you've done your homework, and you ask someone who has some expertise in the area that you have, and you, you know, do it in this way, "I'd love your perspective and thoughts on how would you approach it," people feel given to. They feel given to. And here's the thought experiment that'll prove it. Imagine that somebody that you respect comes to you for help on an area that you have expertise, and they ask you in this way. How are you going to feel, Lenny? How do you feel?

Episode duration: 1:51:29

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Phyl’s background

The concept of job search councils

The power of community in job searching

The scale and structure of job search councils

The impact of job search councils

The concept of candidate-market fit

Writing a Mnookin two-pager

Conducting listening tours

Creating a focused candidate-market fit

Advice on finding the right stage of company for you

Identifying your unique path

Navigating tough job markets

Playing to win

Negotiation tactics for job offers

The gratitude house exercise

The power of asking for help

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