Lenny's PodcastMaking time for what matters | Jake Knapp and John Zeratsky (Authors of Make Time, Character VC)
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
155 min read · 30,683 words- 0:00 – 4:10
About Jake and John
- JKJake Knapp
... so it's not really about productivity. It's not about time management. It's really just about, look, in any given day, we're lucky if we can have one great moment where we have our peak attention and we use it well. And when, it's not gonna happen every day, but if we have some intention around it, it can happen more often than not. The notion with the highlight is, imagine it's the end of the day. If someone asks you, "What was the highlight of your day?" What would you say? That's the anchor of everything. That's the core, that's the foundation. Things can sometimes be a mess outside of that, and you still feel really good about your day as you still feel really good about the way you're spending your energy.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
(instrumental music) Today, I've got two guests, Jake Knapp and John Zeratsky. Jake and John are authors of two incredible books, Sprint and Make Time. With Sprint, they've helped more than 300 teams design new products and bring them to market, including teams at YouTube, Slack, Gusto, and One Medical. Previously, John and Jake worked at Google Ventures, and before that at Google, where John was a leader on Google Ads and YouTube, and Jake helped build Gmail and co-founded Google Meet. Today, they run a venture capital firm called Character, and they actually just opened up applications for their accelerator program called Character Labs, which you can learn more about at character.bc/labs. In our conversation, we focus on their more recent book, Make Time, which a guest of this podcast, Ben Williams, recommended in the lightning round, and I absolutely loved and wanted to make sure more people learned about it and the advice within it, especially product leaders and founders who are constantly looking for ways to be more productive. I want to get you right to the meat of the conversation, so let me just say that we get into a ton of very practical pieces of advice for how you can be more productive in your day. And if you listen to this episode, I guarantee you'll find at least three things that you'll want to start doing differently starting tomorrow. With that, I bring you Jake Knapp and John Zeratsky after a short word from our sponsors. Let me tell you about a product called Sidebar. The best way to level up your career is to surround yourself with extraordinary peers. This gives you more than a leg up, it gives you a leap forward. This worked really well for me in my career, and this is the Sidebar ethos. When you have a trusted group of peers, you can discuss challenges you're having, get career advice, and just gut check how you're thinking about your work, your career, and your life. This was a big trajectory changer for me, but it's hard to build this trusted group of peers. Sidebar is a private, highly-vetted leadership program where senior leaders are matched with peer groups to lean on for unbiased opinions, diverse perspectives, and raw feedback. Guided by world-class programming and facilitation, Sidebar enables you to get focused, tactical feedback at every step of your career journey. If you're a listener of this podcast, you're already committed to growth. Sidebar is the missing piece to catalyze your career. 93% of members say Sidebar helped them achieve a significant positive change in their career. Why spend a decade finding your people when you can meet them at Sidebar today? Join thousands of top senior leaders who have taken the first step to career growth from companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Meta by visiting sidebar.com/lenny. That's sidebar.com/lenny. This episode is brought to you by Whimsical, the iterative product workspace. Whimsical helps product managers build clarity and shared understanding faster with tools designed for solving product challenges. With Whimsical, you can easily explore new concepts using drag-and-drop wireframe and diagram components, create rich product briefs that show and sell your thinking, and keep your team aligned with one source of truth for all of your build requirements. Whimsical also has a library of easy-to-use templates from product leaders like myself, including a project proposal one-pager and a go-to-market worksheet. Give them a try and see how fast and easy it is to build clarity with Whimsical. Sign up at whimsical.com/lenny for 20% off a Whimsical pro plan. That's whimsical.com/lenny.
- 4:10 – 6:06
Recording the audiobook for Make Time
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Jake and John, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
- JKJake Knapp
Thanks for having us. We're so stoked to be here.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
I was just re-listening to the audiobook of Make Time to prep for this conversation, and I feel like I kind of know you guys from listening to your voice for so long in the car.
- JKJake Knapp
(laughs)
- LRLenny Rachitsky
And it's, uh, it's a little surreal to be talking to you guys.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
That was really fun to record, and w- while we were doing it, we, we kept saying to each other, it was like we were recording, like, the world's longest podcast.
- JKJake Knapp
(laughs)
- JZJohn Zeratsky
That's what it felt like.
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
I actually on that, I was going to ask you, how long did it take, how long does it take to record an audiobook? I've always been curious. How much time does it take?
- JKJake Knapp
Well, it takes twice as long as it should have because my stomach kept growling-
- JZJohn Zeratsky
(laughs) Oh, that's right.
- JKJake Knapp
... and (laughs) the microphone would pick it up, and so John would do, you know, like, a perfect take, and we're both sitting in the little, you know, room together, and the, the engineer would, was in the other room, and he'd be like, "You got to do it again. You got to do it again. That guy's-"
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Wow.
- JKJake Knapp
"... stomach keeps growling."
- JZJohn Zeratsky
I think it took two days, right?
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah, I think it was two days. Yeah, yeah, and I think actually they, they thought it would take two days, so I don't think my, my stomach slowed us down too much.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
That is not as long as I thought. I thought it was like a, a month of recording and such a painful experience. Sounds like not so bad.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
No, it was, honestly, it was really fun. I mean, it's-
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
... it's weird, but it's just like, uh, I don't know, you can get into this very intense zone where you're, you're, there, you're singularly focused, right? There's nothing else that you, you need to do or should do, so it's just like, read, drink tea, read, break for lunch, read, drink tea. It's just like, you know, it's, it's this really satisfying, like, flow.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
That sounds like a great, a great few days.
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah, I think it was really fun doing it together too.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Yeah.
- JKJake Knapp
I think it would have been harder to do, I mean, but obviously people do it and I think they like doing it on their own, but like-
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Right.
- JKJake Knapp
... uh, we've, we've been working together for so long. It was just like, it's always more enjoyable when we get to do something together, so that was, that made it cool.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Amazing. Sounds like I, I want to do an audiobook now. That sounds like a lot of fun.
- 6:06 – 11:24
What people often get wrong when trying to become more productive
- LRLenny Rachitsky
(laughs)
- JKJake Knapp
(laughs)
- LRLenny Rachitsky
So to kind of start diving into our conversation, so you guys wrote this very, uh, seminal book called Sprint, which we're gonna talk about. But you also wrote this other book that I have right here, called Make Time, that to me was even more powerful, and I think it might be even more powerful in people's lives than Sprint. And I think it's one of the most interesting and most fun productivity books out there. I have a, my wife actually grabbed the book from my desk the past week as I've been prepping for this, and just started highlighting it. Like, you can see all these highlights in here. She's just going through-
- JKJake Knapp
Oh, that's so cool.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
... going through it and being like, "I want to be more productive." Also, a guest on the podcast introduced me to the book. At the end of the podcast, I'll ask you this too, but I ask people what book do they recommend most to other people, and you mentioned this book. And so that's how I uncovered it, so it all comes-
- JKJake Knapp
That's so cool.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
... full circle. So, I thought we'd start with Make Time, and then get to Sprint in the second half of the conversation.
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
First question is just, what do most people get wrong when they're trying to become more productive?
- JKJake Knapp
To kind of set the answer up, the, I'll give you like a kind of a super brief history of Make Time. And we've, for over a decade John and I have been kind of like, in quotes, like "designing time," uh, as, as part of our work with startups. You know, helping them find or expand product market fit. And so we, we developed the design sprint at Google Ventures, which the Sprint book is about, and, um, now we run this venture fund of our own called Character. And we run these highly structured sprints with companies, and when we're doing that, we get to control how everything happens. Like, we get to change the defaults of the way the workday happens, of what happens sort of hour to hour, minute to minute. How people are using technology, how people are interacting with each other. All those things are sort of under our control because we're trying to achieve these big goals in a really short period of time, everybody focused. So, as this stuff was going on, John and I started applying some of the, the lessons, the things that we found were working really well in those structured sprints. We started experimenting with applying those in our own day-to-day lives, and we found that some of those things were super effective, and they were a bit counter to the way we'd sort of heard or learned about productivity. There's like all kinds of habit books and productivity hacks out there, and I think John and I have, you know, probably tried most of them, if not all of them. But it seems like 99% of the people who follow those things are still feeling overwhelmed, they're still stressed out all the time anyway. So, even though we are not productivity gurus, this hasn't been like this thing we were doing forever, it's not our full-time job, but we thought like, "We want to share this framework." So Make Time, the book, and the, the blog that preceded it was just kind of this side project to share what we learned. And, um, yeah. It seems like it's, it's resonated with a bunch of people. Like there's this, uh, you know, kind of steady stream of, of interest in looking at these things a different way.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Mm-hmm. I love it. I love that it emerged out of the Sprint concept. I know you talked about that in the book but I forgot that, and that these are all very related. I also love that a lot of the, a lot of the best stuff comes from people actually doing the thing. Like this came from, "I just, I discovered all these little things and I'm just gonna share it." Not just like, "I need to write a productivity book."
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah. I think, like Jake said, we both had always sort of been dissatisfied with the, the state of the, the productivity art, you know? And, and we had big things we wanted to do. I mean, when you work in, uh, in any kind of job, I mean we, we both, uh, spent our early careers as designers, and the job is really all about like doing big projects. It's all about like being able to focus, being able to spend time on the things that matter. And that's to say nothing of like what we want outside of work, you know? Like, things that we want to learn how to do personally. You know, people we want to spend time with, you know? And everybody... It's interesting, like we found that, that when we talk to people about Make Time, they, they always know. Like they always know what they want to make time for, right? Like, the problem is not like, "What should my goal be?" Or, "What should, you know, how should I figure out what to do with my life?" It's like, you, you know, they, they usually know, um, but it's very hard to, to actually make time for those things. And I think the problem is that most productivity advice focuses on getting better and faster, uh, about doing the things that are already in front of you. So the, the messages that are in your inbox, the, the meetings that are on your calendar. A lot of focus on efficiency. Like, crank through that stuff. Our perspective is basically that those are the defaults. You know, just like our, our, you know, software that we use, apps that we use have defaults. Those are the defaults of, of life. Of like, the, the companies that we work in, the culture that we live in. And so th- the solution is actually to, to change those defaults, and to really flip this way of thinking on its head. So it's not about, "How do I go faster? How do I get more efficient?" It's about, "How do I put the thing that is the most important first in my day or in my life," and, and, and, and then build everything else around that. And, and accept that you're gonna need to do a bunch of those little things. You're gonna need to answer those messages and go to those meetings. But, but really start with the idea of what's most, what's most important to you. What do you actually want to make
- 11:24 – 15:22
The busy bandwagon and infinity pools
- JKJake Knapp
time for?
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Along these same lines, we're gonna talk about this kind of four part strategy that you recommend. But a couple things before we get into there. One is, along the lines you just talked about, is this insight that you had of just like willpower is never gonna be enough to get you to make time for the things you want to do. And you had these two concepts of a busy bandwagon and infinity pools. So maybe just talk about those two briefly.
- JKJake Knapp
The idea of the busy bandwagon is just this like expectation that, you know, um, everybody's busy. And in the United States, there's kind of this...... this thing that I think of wh- when you, you know, you, if you travel abroad and, like, talk to people for a while then you come back, y- you'll notice, which is like if you ask someone, "Hey," like, w- "H- how's it going? What are you up to?" And they'll be like, "Oh, man, I'm busy." You know, it's like kind of the default answer, "I'm busy." Things are busy. And it means usually... I mean, it can mean like a variety of things, but usually it's good. Like, oh, it's busy, so business is booming, or it's busy, I'm overwhelmed, or like whatever, but like busy... It's kind of the expectation that like everybody's busy. And we are. I mean, we are busy, but like we call it the busy bandwagon 'cause it feels like you should be busy, and it's this inner feeling caused by what we see or perceive other people are doing that drives a lot of the stress. And, uh, and I don't mean to sound like I'm, like, above it all and have like figured it all out. It still drives my stress. It's this inner feeling that like other people haven't figured out, other people are expecting fast reactions from me, all this. That's the busy bandwagon, this sort of feeling that I should be busy, that everyone else is busy. And what that does inside of us is really the, the core of what we have to, we have to change and figure out. This, this, you know, sort of getting out of a reaction mode. The other thing that happens to us are the infinity pools. And Jon, do you want to describe what infinity pools are in our context?
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Yeah. We came up with this name because we were trying to think of like, uh, endlessly replenishing, uh, you know, uh, fount of, of content, right? So like, y- you know, basically if you can pull to refresh or if it streams, like it's an infinity pool. So this is like-
- JKJake Knapp
(laughs)
- JZJohn Zeratsky
... pure entertainment stuff. This is stuff that people say, like, "Oh, I spent, you know, I spend so much time on Instagram," but it's also like stuff that's important and necessary and productive. Like email is a huge infinity pool, and it's probably like the single hardest thing for the two of us to, like, sort of control and, and, and avoid getting sucked into. And, you know, like anybody listening to this is gonna, I, I think understand how, um, how powerful those, those pools are and how effectively designed and engineered those products are to, you know, to be really compelling and to be friction-free and to just make it easy for us to dive back into that pool. And so when you put these two things together, the b- the busy bandwagon and the infinity pool, you kind of have this like, you know, it's like a flywheel, but, but bad, you know? (laughs) It's like this... Y- y- you feel like y- y- you really need to be busy, you really need to be on top of everything, and then you've got this, this whole collection of apps and services and products there that are sort of ready to, to pounce on that. They're ready to take advantage of that set of defaults, that cultural and, and internal, you know, set of defaults that you have about what you should be doing. And for a lot of people, it just sort of spins out of control. So, so our view is like if you can name those two things, if you can understand those two things, then you can start to deliberately change some of the defaults around them so that you can put your most important projects, people, work first, like, like we talked about.
- JKJake Knapp
I'm guilty of both these things. I feel like these k- the reason I do some of these chats, this one in particular, is I... It's like consulting, like one-on-one coaching almost.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Yeah. (laughs)
- JKJake Knapp
Like this is gonna help me, uh, stick to some of the things you teach. And I've already actually implemented a number of the things you recommend, but this is reinforcing it. And then obviously also helping all the listeners get better at these things.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Yeah.
- 15:22 – 20:10
Real talk: Jake and John’s productivity levels
- JZJohn Zeratsky
- JKJake Knapp
Before we get into it, one last question. Just like real talk, how, how's your guys' productivity? Like you wrote this book, it sounds amazing. There's 87, I think, pieces of advice. How is it going for you guys? I wanna h- as we go through, I want to hear like what you're actually using, but just broadly, like how's your productivity? At the, at the top of the interview, when you asked what do people... What do most people get wrong about, uh, you know, when they think about this productivity, time management, whatever. And I'll, I'll frame my answer in, in those terms. So most people, I think they, they try to get better and faster at doing like what's right in front of them. You know, we don't change the defaults in our environment so we can focus and spend time on these different, more important things. And if you think of that, that sort of what do I want to do? What's my goal? What do I want to spend time on that Jon referred to as like project A? Generally, the, the things we want to do, these project A things, they're, they're big. They're not easy to start. They're slow to create dopamine hits. They're non-urgent, like if a boss is not asking for them, if you have a boss. And generally, the tasks and activities that stand in our way that keep us from doing project A, they're small. They're medium-sized. It's obvious how to start 'em. They create dopamine right away. They're supposedly urgent. Email meetings, TikTok, Instagram, news, what's on your OKRs, all these things are like... And I know what's on your OKRs may not sound like it's a peer of those others, but in a way, like it really can be. So these big things, they're like at odds with, with these, these little things that get in the way that the busy bandwagon expects us to do, these things that have infinity pools built in. And so for me right now, it's a constant battle between the, (laughs) Jake and the busy bandwagon and my inner feeling of like, eh, how, how can I live up to people's expectations of me and respond in the way that I should and react in the way that I should? And then how can I do the project A stuff, the big important stuff? A lot has changed in my life since we wrote the book. The summary is, every few months I need a few new experiments. I have found in what has been some, you know, some trying times that the tactics and the framework that we use, 'cause it's kind of simple and it, it sort of fits with these experiences that I've had for many years doing sprints, that it works and that if I can go back to that, if I can create space for it, if I can think about this as, you know, it's a series of experiments, if I can look at myself with curiosity and say, "Why am I not... Why are things not working out?" And then-... try to experiment my way out of it that, um, that I'm able to. But yeah, so at any given point and time, you know, I probably give myself a, a B to, you know, B minus. And sometimes it's a C, and sometimes it's a D, and sometimes it's an A, and I'm really, you know, plugging away. But, uh, it's y- it's, it's an ongoing, it's totally an ongoing challenge. So I'm not gonna sit here and say like, "Yeah, just do... Just, just follow me with a drone for, you know-"
- JZJohn Zeratsky
(laughs)
- JKJake Knapp
"... 48 hours and you'll think that's exactly how you should do things." But, uh, but part of our philosophy, I think, that part of the way I look at it is, it can be a mess, and, and yet if you can create the space for those project A moments, for, like, your highlights, that can sort of shape everything else in terms... Like, if you just have those moments, things can sometimes be a mess outside of that, and you still feel really good about your day as you still feel really good about the way you're spending your energy.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Yeah. And having a framework for it gives you a path back, you know? If, if you're just stuck and you're looking, you're sort of grasping for hacks, you know, you're sort of like, "Oh, I read a, read this really, you know, this blog post about this thing, I'll try it." That might have some short term effect, but ultimately you're probably not gonna stick to it, you're probably gonna fall back into that place of overwhelm and disappointment and burnout. But we find that if you have a, a system, then you, you can use the system and you can return to it and continue to build on it and experiment, that you can make more, more sustainable progress on these things. I think a really important takeaway from these two stories you guys just shared is, you don't have to do all of these things. You don't even have to do, like, most of them. If you just do, like, one or two, if you find one or two things that can make you a little bit more productive every day, that makes a huge dent. And so, I think it's okay to feel like, "Oh, I tried this stuff, it didn't work." I think as long as you take a couple things away today that might be useful to you and then just try them again in the future if they end up not working out, like you delete an app and then you reinstall it, I think that's okay. So I think that's an important takeaway from this, is don't feel like you're failing if you're not doing all of the things that we're talking about today.
- 20:10 – 25:15
The four-part framework for getting more done: Highlight, Laser, Energize, Reflect
- JZJohn Zeratsky
But let's get into it. There's this kind of four-part framework for how to help yourself be more productive. Basically, if you could just give an overview, and then we'll just talk about each of these steps one by one. So the four parts are, create a highlight, laser, energize, and reflect. So I'll turn it over to you guys just broadly, and then let's go through each of these one by one.
- JKJake Knapp
It all starts with this notion of a highlight. And the highlight is, I hate to say this, it's the most powerful, best part, I think, of the whole process.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
I agree.
- JKJake Knapp
And I hate to say that 'cause John came up with it, it wasn't unique.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
(laughs)
- JKJake Knapp
But I have to admit, it's really good, and I think for, as, as folks have read the book and, and shared it, that's the thing we hear back from people, this is the one thing. If you could just do one thing from this book and try this out, it's a big deal. The notion with the highlight is start your day out, and you imagine it's the end of the day, you're looking back on the day. If someone asks you, "What was the highlight of your day?" what would you say? What do you want to say at the end of today was the highlight of today? And you start there, just like, "Okay, what would I, what would I like to say the highlight of the day was?" And we think, you know, you, you might think about what's, um, what's urgent. Sometimes the highlight is this thing that really has to happen today, today is the day. There's a big meeting, or there's this thing I absolutely have to get done for work for tomorrow. That could be your highlight, and getting that done well, having good attention to that will be very satisfying. But a lot of times, the highlight comes from joy or, you know, satisfaction, projects that wouldn't otherwise get attention. And it also doesn't have to just be something at work. It could be people in your life that you wanna spend time with, a hobby that you wanna spend time on, you know? If you wanna get better at Mario Kart, I think having a good session of Mario Kart, whatever might be the highlight of your day. The notion is just, in the morning to think, what is it, and what is that highlight gonna be? And then, you know, try to find a block that's 60 to 90 minutes, that's just usually, like, the rough time we think it takes to really get in the zone on something, do a really excellent job, be totally focused on it. So that highlight is the, that's the, that's the anchor of everything, that's the core, that's the foundation. And you start that way, you're now trying to shape your time around that highlight, and making sure that you have your peak energy, your peak attention when the time for that highlight comes around. So laser is about the tactics you might need to, to actually focus on that thing. So in highlight, we have a set of tactics for how to create and think about and frame that highlight. Laser, we have a set of tactics for how do you pay attention when that time comes. And then for energize, it's about having the right amount of energy to do the thing to pay attention, you know? Uh, my highlight for today is trying to be coherent in this podcast, so I, this morning I need to think about what's the best way for me to have peak energy when the podcast starts.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
That's my highlight too, actually. I have it
- JKJake Knapp
Oh yeah, right on. Okay. (laughs)
- JZJohn Zeratsky
... listed here. Record a great podcast episode.
- JKJake Knapp
(laughs) Excellent, excellent. Okay, yeah. And if you're not watching on video, Lenny had a sticky note that said... he wrote down.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
That's right.
- JKJake Knapp
So that's actually, like, literally what the best way to do this is write it down on a sticky note, put it somewhere where you can see it. And so, you've got highlight, laser during the time of the highlight, energize, make sure you have the energy you need when the time comes, and these are just tactics about sleep and food and exercise and, you know, just things that help with your mental energy, not crazy stuff. And then the final thing is reflect. And this is where we think about this as, like, the scientific method. Like, did it work? Did what I tried today work out? And if not, just being curious about it, what didn't, and adjusting and trying to think, "Okay, maybe there's another tactic I can try." So the book is like, what are there, like 87 tactics in the book? There's a lot of different approaches, but the expectation is not you're gonna use all of 'em. And the expectation is not that all of them will work for each person. I use different tactics than John does, and some of his don't work for me and vice versa. But that, that idea of, of, you know, centering on a thing-
- JZJohn Zeratsky
... focusing on it, having tactics for that fo- having tactics for energy, and then having some tactics to reflect and, and reframe and be curious. That taken together we find is just like, can reframe the way it feels. It's not really about productivity, it's not about time management. It's really just about, uh, loo- in any given day, we're lucky if we can have one great moment where we have our peak attention and we use it well. And we're n- it's not gonna happen every day, but if we have some intention around it, it can happen more often than not.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
I think that last point is so important and why the highlight works so well for me is, usually there's, like you don't get anything amazingly done in a day often. And like usually you're just distracted by all these things and you're doing all the easy stuff. We talked about this idea of project A, like here's the thing I really want to get done, but the dopamine hit is so far in the future and it's so hard. And so if you, like the reason I think the highlight is so powerful is you get one thing done you're proud of, that is a great day. And it may sound crazy that that's true, but it's so true.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Yeah.
- 25:15 – 28:08
Step 1: Highlight
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Yeah, totally.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
So I want to talk more in depth about each of these four things, and maybe spend the most time on the highlight and the LASER 'cause I think that's where most of the impact comes from. So with the highlight, do you have any advice? You shared a couple of examples of how to come up with like, here's the thing to pick for the day. There's a few questions that you recommend, and I think you shared a couple of them. And then are there any examples of highlights from your guys', I don't know, past couple of weeks that would be good for people to hear an example? And then also there's this calendar component, which maybe fits into the LASER, but I guess that feels like a really important element of this. So if you just talk about that.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
For me, and again, and this is where the, the framework is intentionally flexible, um, eh different people have different highlights. But for me, I am, I'm very project oriented. I'm very like work oriented. And for me, most days, you know, a really good day comes from having made progress on something that i- is really important to me, you know. So, so my highlights are usually kind of focus work, creative work related. And this has become even more important since we started our own VC firm three years ago. And before that I was sort of, um, I guess more or less like a writer, you know, full-time, like, you know, writing and, and, and speaking at events and doing some consulting. And before that I, I was a partner at, at Google Ventures, at GV, and before that I was a product designer. So like I've been through different modes and contexts in my career, but you know, if you know any VCs, uh, (laughs) you know, if you're listening to this and you know any VCs, like they're probably like the busiest, like most frazzled people that you know, who are like constantly on email, like constantly in Zoom calls and meetings and on airplanes all the time. And so the, the natural environment of, of that work is, is the busy bandwagon, and it's to have a lot of infinity pools that, that you need to care about. And so in, in that context, in order for us to make progress on projects, in order for us to move the ball on like a, a launch related to, uh, th- this program character labs that we run with, with pre-seed founders that's coming up, or, um, we're, we're writing a new book and, you know, that's a big, a big project. Or working with one of our portfolio companies and running a sprint with them, or writing a newsletter that goes out to our LPs. Those things are all really important, and I feel like they give us like a, a unique edge as, as a VC firm. You know, if, if we accept the premise I said before that most VCs are just sort of, you know, frantically running around, like if we can do these, if we can take these, these bigger swings at things, then theoretically they should really help us be successful.
- 28:08 – 30:52
Designing your day with a calendar
- JZJohn Zeratsky
So, so most of the time, you know, it's all a very long way (laughs) of saying that most of the time my highlights are like, what do I want to accomplish at work? Like, what is, you know, the, the thing that I want to get done today? And so what I do then is I, I structure my calendar around making time for that. Um, there's a tactic in the book called Design Your Day that is really about kind of drawing out your, your day and using your calendar as a canvas where you can design how you want to spend your time rather than using your calendar as like a, a thing that, that is done to you, right? (laughs) A thing that like tells you what you have to do, um, sort of re- reclaim control over that. And so I, I, I, you know, most days, the first half of the day, you know, before lunch is my, my focus time, and I protect that very, very, uh, intensely, and, uh, and, and then use that time to work on whatever my highlight is.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
We had a previous guest on here also talking about productivity, and he had actually this, the same advice of just using your calendar as your to-do list basically 'cause that's where your time is gonna go, what your calendar's telling you to do. So I think there's like a pattern here that I think people need to pay attention to.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
(laughs) Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and we- we, I mean, we take it even further and we have sort of a calendar template that we use as a team. So we have-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Mm.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
... certain times of the week, and it's not exactly the same for all of us on the team, but there are certain times of the week where it's like, yeah, this is when we do these kinds of things. This is when we have these kinds of meetings. And not to say those, that those are all like standing meetings, although we have some of those as well, but that these are kind of like the, the content buckets in the, in the template that we can fill with a specific type of activity. But then other parts of the template are sort of reserved for, for focus work, reserved for individual, you know, solo time to, to work on things that we need to get done. So yeah, I think the calendar is like at an individual level, and, and especially at a team level, is this really powerful tool that most people have just kind of like-... uh, not only do they not use it as, as like a tool, they just sort of hate it. They're sort of like, "Ugh, my calendar." It's like, "It's a mess," you know. Like, want to make it like, "If I could live without a calendar," or like that would be, "that would be the dream." But, but I think if you, if you can use some of these tactics or use other approaches to, to, uh, you know, reclaim it and use it like proactively as a tool for yourself, it can, it can really help you, you know, structure your time around the things you care about.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Yeah. The way I've been starting to use my calendar is this way exactly, is I try to like, here's prepare for like work on next week's newsletter post for like an hour and a half, then prep for the podcast coming up in a few weeks.
- 30:52 – 35:10
The Groundhog Day mentality
- LRLenny Rachitsky
So it's like very specific and broken up. Along those lines, like I don't know often, I often don't do these things as I planned. And one of your principles, something around Groundhog Day, like it's okay to repeat it if you didn't do it. Like if your highlight you didn't do, just like repeat it again and again until you do it, right?
- JKJake Knapp
I think that what's so cool about this notion of Groundhog Day, I don't know if you've seen the movie. Well, if you haven't seen the movie, see the movie first.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
(laughs)
- JKJake Knapp
What a great movie. But-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
It's a good movie.
- JKJake Knapp
... if you, if you ha- (laughs) if you've seen the movie, you know, it's like he, uh, not to give it away, but like he, eh, he gets better and better at doing the day. And you know, that's, that's like, that's kind of this, this core philosophy that we take on it. I think a lot of the time when in the past I have thought about, "How can I be effective with my time? How can I be productive?" It's, it's a, you know, beating myself up. It's like, it's not, it doesn't, it's not a good feeling to be in that headspace of like, "I'm screwing up. Like, what can I fix," you know? And this notion that it's like you're gonna have another chance, then you're gonna have another chance. It's okay if just try again, just be curious about what happened is a big deal. And starting with the calendar, using the calendar as a framework for saying like, "Okay, here's what actually happens. Here's what I th- I think is gonna happen." That's what you're saying when you, you know, do this design your day tactic. And like I did this exercise, uh, earlier this week. I was switching to new calendar thing and trying to some new, uh, features with... We invest in this company called Reclaim and they-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Oh, I'm an investor-
- JKJake Knapp
... do this kind of-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
... in Reclaim also.
- JKJake Knapp
Oh, oh well. Well.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
How about that?
- JKJake Knapp
(laughs) And-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Did not, not plan this promotion.
- JKJake Knapp
It's great. Yeah, yeah. A little, little, little nuk- yeah. Go ahead, sorry.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
It sounds like we, it sounds like that was a, a, you know, like we knew that, but we actually didn't know that. I didn't know you-
- JKJake Knapp
We did not know that. Yeah, it was a-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
How about that?
- JKJake Knapp
That was, that was just discovered. So anyway, I was just looking at my calendar and I did. I was like, "You know what? I'm gonna do what John does. I'm gonna schedule when I wake up. I'm gonna schedule when I exercise, when I eat breakfast. I'm gonna schedule when I, you know, take a shower, like everything, and block it all out. When I walk and feed the dogs, like everything's gonna be on there so that then I, you know, I can have this idea and when, you know, the day starts I kind of know, okay, there's slots for all those things." And then I found this week that like what I thought happened, how long I thought those things take was not how long they take. And, and so this, you know, it's just set that thing to repeat every day and look at it, and then I'm like, "Oh, okay. Interesting. That's not what happened." Okay, so I can adjust it. I can adjust the template and be a bit more kind to myself about this part, be a bit more kind to myself about that part. Um, gosh, that, the morning time wasn't a good focus time for me. Oh, well, see if I can... Is there a way I can make that block happen in the afternoon? You know, just it, it's just helpful, just a helpful way to kind of track stuff and see it. Just especially I think a lot of people are, uh, are visual learners, you know, or you know, like we can benefit from seeing things. It's not everybody, but a lot of us are in that camp and, and when you put it on the calendar, you can see it and that helps a lot.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
And also keep someone else from booking that time. Double win.
- JKJake Knapp
(laughs) Right. Not to be undervalued.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Yeah.
- JKJake Knapp
Keep someone else from booking that time. Right. Yeah. And they look and they see, "Oh, okay. Lenny's already got stuff going on and figured out." I'd, "Okay. I'm like, I better, I better be cautious before I ask for something," and that default to be helpful to other people and say yes when they put something on a free spot on your calendar defeats a lot of our, our inner purposes. And one core idea I don't think we've mentioned yet is that we strongly believe in people's intuition about how they should spend their time if they have the chance, what really is important. And that is true, you know, we're talking about, you know, running this VC fund or like writing books, which are obviously very like, well, we're in charge of those things. But like this is also true, we've been employees in big organizations. I also believe it's true that the, if you have a boss and a, and a boss's boss's boss, that you have great insight about what, if you had a window of time, would be the highest leverage thing for you to do and it might not show up on your OKRs, it might not be on your boss's radar, your boss's boss's boss's boss's radar. You have great intuition and we want to create space for you to do that thing because you're going to feel better about it, you're going to be more satisfied, and also good things are going to happen.
- 35:10 – 39:30
Tactical advice for implementing the highlight method
- JKJake Knapp
- LRLenny Rachitsky
We're spending a lot of time on this highlight, but I think it's because it's so powerful. It's such a simple idea, but so effective. So just to kind of give people tactical advice for how to actually implement this, just a couple things that I'll sh- I'll summarize. One is you had these, to pick the highlight, you had a couple questions I have here for how to help you pick one out for the day. So you either ask which highlight will bring me the most satisfaction or when I reflect on today, what will bring me the most joy? Maybe that's the same question, but I don't know.
- JKJake Knapp
Slightly different. Slightly different, right?
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Slightly different. Ech-
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Okay, okay, okay, good.
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
And then-
- JKJake Knapp
Satisfaction could be like, "I know this thing has to get done."
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Yeah, okay.
- JKJake Knapp
"Got it done."
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Okay, great. Good point.
- JKJake Knapp
You know? And joy could be like, "Man, that was great." You know and th- and those are like, they're in the same family, but they're, they're cousins, you know?
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Great point. Great point.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Yeah. And I mentioned like a lot of my highlights personally are, are very much in the like urgency or satisfaction camp. They're like these big chunky like projects. I got it done. I finished that deck. I finished writing that thing. But I also try to stay attuned to when I need something else in my day, you know when I need like I need some joy, I need some, some fun, some play, I need to like...
- JKJake Knapp
... prioritize, you know, going for a run, or going for a walk, or, like, cooking a big dinner. And so, like, I, I, I trust my gut on those things, and I say like, "Okay, I, I, n- like, what's most important to me today is not to be productive, but to do something else." And, and, uh, sometimes, y- y- you know, the, that's the best highlight for me. For other people, maybe that's their highlight every single day, right?
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Mm-hmm.
- JKJake Knapp
Like, maybe they work as a ... I don't know. I've talked to a lot of people who work in healthcare settings about this. Like, they're, they're a, a, you know, a nurse or a doctor, and it's like, when they're at work, they're at work, right? Like, they're not bouncing around between meetings and emails and ev- and Zooms. Like, they're, they're on their feet. Like, there's no time to do anything else. So like, their highlight is probably like something they w- need to do at the end of the day to like unwind or like take care of themselves. So you have these kind of, these three different sort of strategies that we talk about, urgency, satisfaction and joy as being three different places you can look for the right highlight for you each day. But ultimately, I think it comes down to, like, just trusting your gut and sort of asking yourself, like you said, like, "Wh- what do I want to look back on and, and have said like, 'Yeah, I'm glad I made time for that'?"
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Awesome. So then, yeah. So you touched on the third. So it's basically, what would give you the most satisfaction? So at the, in the morning, you essentially ask the ... Or even the night before. I think one of you, I forget, 'cause when I was listening to the audiobook, I don't know who's talking. But one of you is like, "I like to do it the day before." Is that right?
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah. That's-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Yeah. ... that's me. Okay. Okay. (laughs) That's Jon. That's Jon talking. Okay, so the questions you ask either the night before or in the morning are, "What would give me the m- the most satisfaction today?" What would ... Or the next day. "What would give me the most joy?" Or, "What's the most pressing thing that I need to get done?" So you do that, and then the advice is either write it on a Post-it ... I actually bought these tiny little Post-its by accident. I was trying to buy regular Post-its ... (laughs)
- JKJake Knapp
(laughs)
- LRLenny Rachitsky
... and they're actually really great for this specific use case. So ...
- JKJake Knapp
It's perfect. It's perfect.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
So write your highlights. Stick it on the monitor. Uh, so that's one way of doing it. The other is stick it in your calendar, where you have, like, focus time every ... In theory, it's like every day, here's my focus time, once, when you know where you have the most energy. Is that the general advice?
- JKJake Knapp
Generally, although I think that that's probably more important for, um, a certain, a certain kind of h- highlight, you know. Like-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Mm-hmm.
- JKJake Knapp
You know, I have focus time m- most mornings, um, t- to be like really specific and nerdy about it, like Monday, Wednesday and Thursday mornings, I have focus time. Tuesday and Friday mornings, I have meetings. But like, you know, on a Thursday night, like my highlight might actually be to have friends over and cook dinner, and like, you know, that's not my, that's not the same as focus time, but it's this like pressure release valve where I'm like, that's the thing that I want to make sure ... Like, I want to make sure I, I wrap up, like, email at 5:00 so that I, like, have time to, like, get everything ready. But it's not necessarily sort of that peak, you know, energy moment in the, in the, the way that we might think about, you know, being productive or, or, or, or getting things done or sort of, um, getting into that flow state.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Awesome. So there's a lot of ways to do it. So maybe just a takeaway if you're listening to this is, just think about what could be your highlight for today or tomorrow.
- 39:30 – 48:08
An example of a failed highlight
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah. And I would s- say, e- go, go one step further and, and make sure to write it down. Like, don't just think about it, because there's something really special that happens when you write things down, like even if it's on a sticky, like even if it's in your, your notebook, your journal, like even if it's a note on your phone. Like, m- make, like take that step as well.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Even if you don't see it again-
- JKJake Knapp
(laughs)
- LRLenny Rachitsky
... it just, writing it down is a big deal.
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
That's a really good point.
- JKJake Knapp
I can give you concrete example of-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Yeah.
- JKJake Knapp
... a highlight and, uh, and ... a failed highlight-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Great.
- JKJake Knapp
... uh, from, from yesterday actually. And so, most days, these days, my highlight is around making progress on the book. Jon alluded to working on a book, and so that's obviously, it's a huge project. I've heard it said that, you know, if you are writing books, it's like having homework forever. Like, you always feel like there's always more to do. And so, that's mostly been my highlight. But yesterday, I wanted to prepare for this podcast. I knew that was going to be satisfying to be, to feel like I was ready. We don't think about talking about make time all the time, you know? Like we said, it's sort of like a side project for us. So, wanted to be ready and somewhat coherent. And I also, so it was, you know, I knew I'd be satisfied, but I also knew it was urgent. Like, we're going to be doing the recording today. So I, that was my highlight. Write, write that down. Get ready for podcast. And I had two focus blocks, one in the morning, one in the afternoon, should be easy. Focus block number one, kind of just didn't do a good job. I was distracted. I was, I was in my email. I was, you know, doing everything that I would say you shouldn't do, I was doing. F- felt, feeling down on myself, "Oh, I've become a loser. I didn't get anything done." Okay. Second focus block. Whew, man. Now the pressure's on. I really, I got to do it. And so I finally, I get into the zone, you know, and I ... My wife thinks I have, like, a pretty serious case of undiagnosed ADHD. So a lot of it is just like, if I really do have a deadline, then I really will, like, click in. So now I have a deadline, I'm doing it, and I'm making notes and getting there. But I feel like there's still a ways to go. And my son, my 12-year-old son, like bursts into the room. And it's, "Oh, God. You're invading me, like, right when I'm at peak focus." And he's like, "Hey. I'm going to do one more trip outside to, uh, to sled in the snow. Do you want to come?" And I'm like, w- God, you know, first reaction, "No. Absolutely not. I can get this thing done. It's my highlight. This is the one thing I need to do today. I can do it max, uh, level of quality if I can just stay in this precious zone of focus." But then, I was like, "Wait a second. What's really going to be the highlight of my day? What's really going to be the highlight, the thing that I might actually remember in the future?" We rarely get snow here. I live on this island in Washington state. We don't ... We maybe get, like, significant snowfall once every two years. We've only lived here for a few years. He's 12. He loves snow more than anything in the world. He loves snow. But we ... He grew up in California, so he's, hasn't had many days. He's 12. He's like on the cusp of being like a teenager. There's not maybe any more days in his life that he's going to want me to get on the sled with him and wrap my arms around him and go down the hill. I was like, "I got to get out there." So-... okay, pause this. R- ran outside, we did it and, like, man, it was magical. And, like, w- w- I didn't know we were going to get one more in because the snow was supposed to be melting already. We went down the hill, we went down the hill, we went... It got dark, we had to stop. But it was, like, so magic and remember, like, the very last end of the sled run and it's, like, the last one. And, you know, he's like, "Man..." He's like, "That was a great last sled run. So glad we did it." And I was like, "Yeah, I'm so glad we did it. It was great." Come back inside, you know, 15 minutes, I try to hustle and get this done. And so I was like, you know, if I... Maybe it was like 80% or 75% to where I wanted to be on this. I couldn't check off that highlight as being the, you know, the most important thing. But because of the framing of, like, it might be wrong, like, what am I gonna remember? All this stuff, like, it just felt natural to me to switch modes and say, "Oh my God, that actually is a highlight. That's the thing that's going to be really, really precious." That's where the, the joy and the satisfaction are most for today. And I still... Because I had written down the other thing, I still did it instead of churning on email the entire day. But, like, I screwed up twice, but, like, it still turned out pretty good. So anyway, that's, that's kind of what it can look like at its best. And a lot of the times, it doesn't make that much sense and a lot of the times I miss the special moments or I miss the key work moment or the key, you know, time when I could have gotten the most done. But I just feel better about it, which is a lot of what this is about. I just feel, like, better about it 'cause... You know, feel more intentional.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Well, thank you for sharing the real talk. I think you made the right choice. I feel bad for having you have to decide between your kid and this podcast. (laughs)
- JKJake Knapp
(laughs) You didn't have anything to... No, no, no. I just wanted to... This... It's selfish for me to want to be prepared. I just want to look good, you know?
- LRLenny Rachitsky
(laughs)
- JKJake Knapp
I just want to sound like I know what I'm talking about.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Well, it's working out.
- JKJake Knapp
(laughs)
- LRLenny Rachitsky
It all worked out. Uh, that's a great story. It reminds me, in your book at some point, I forget who it was of you that had to... You had this like, "Here's my priorities in my life right now." And it was like, family, writing Make Time, something else. And then you're like, "Okay, actually Make Time is more important right now than my family."
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah. (laughs)
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Because you just had, you have to get this done and I wonder if this is a counter to that.
- JKJake Knapp
Well, the... Yeah. That's... I mean, and I think that part of what people have found useful about Make Time is that John and I come at this from different perspectives. And I have, I have kids. I have a 12-year-old and a 20-year-old, sons, and, like, dealing with being a dad is a big part of how I try to figure out how to make sense of what to do. And, and, uh, and, and, and John doesn't have kids. And so, like, he has, he has it easy, you know? He's... No, he doesn't. But, um, but, but that's just a different... It's a different f- frame of mind. And I think sometimes, I read something that people without kids wrote and I think, like, "Well yeah, sure, like, I'm sure that's wonderful for you, but what about X, Y, Z?" And, uh, although I'm sure a lot of people who have, like, more kids or when they have young kids would... You know? But, you know, like, that's a, that's a real part of it. And when you have... Whether it's your, your family, your significant other, like, anything that's going on in your life that's not part of your work, there are times when you, on a day or in a moment, you do have to... You have to shift those priorities. And it can help to just be... This idea of, like, stack ranking things and being clear about it can help you just come to terms with it. "I'm making that decision right now. It makes sense to make right now." Or at least, "I can see that I did it and if it seems like I screwed it up, I flip it back. I, I know where it happened." A lot of this is just, like, if you were designing a product or writing code or whatever, like, you can see that's where the bug (laughs) happened. Mm-hmm.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
I'll just try to fix that line.
- JKJake Knapp
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, uh, I love how real you're getting and also it reminds me of, uh, I... We just had a kid. He's seven months old, so I'm going through a lot with kid-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Oh, congratulations.
- JKJake Knapp
(laughs) Thank you.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
That's busy times. Seven months old.
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
It's busy times.
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah, that's great. People always told, uh, me, told us when we had kids, when were babies, they're always like, "Oh, just you wait." I just feel like this is, like, a thing that people want to tell other parents, like, "Just you wait until this happens." And then one person said, "You know what? Generally speaking, it gets easier and easier and easier." Like, every month, every week, generally speaking, it's, like, gets easier. And I think that is true, so just keep that in mind if you're ever feeling like it's overwhelming, people are-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
No, I think that is true.
- 48:08 – 51:12
Step 2: Laser
- LRLenny Rachitsky
I want to talk about the next bucket that you call LASER. You could also think of it as just, like, how to focus better, and this is where, like, most of the very tactical tips for how to avoid getting distracted are. So, what I think might be helpful here is let's just do, like, a rapid fire through as... Your favorite tactical tips to help people stay focused and the more, uh, the ones that you actually do and find most helpful, I, I think it's, like, six years later now since you published the book, the better. So let's, let's go through some stuff here.
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah. The basic principle with LASER is that you're...
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Willpower is never going to win. Like, will... And there's, like, there's great research on this, like, but for now, just trust me, like, will... You're, you're not going to, you're not going to white-knuckle your way through, like, not looking at Twitter when you're trying to work. So it's all about, like, making it hard, like creating barriers to getting distracted. So few things for me, like I, I'm, I'm not on Instagram and I'm not on Facebook. Like, I was on both of those things, and I, I left both of them. Like, I, I disabled my accounts. I, I am on Twitter and LinkedIn, but I don't have either of those apps installed on my phone. I stay logged out of those sites on my computer, except for when I want to use them for some specific purpose. LinkedIn, I kind of need to use, like, all the time 'cause I'm a VC and I have to, like, look people up and stuff. So I found this Chrome plug-in, or a Chrome extension I guess is the right word, that disables the feed in LinkedIn. So when I go to linkedin.com, it's like the search bar at the top, but there's no feed-
- JKJake Knapp
Mm-hmm.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
... um, which is amazing, uh, because I can use LinkedIn as, like, the phone book and, um, and then, you know, not get distracted. So those are, those are like some of the very, very concrete specific things that, that I do. All, again, with, with the goal of, of putting a speed bump between me and that thing so that if I, I go, and I don't do this much anymore, but, like, I used to like literally my, my, my hands on the keyboard would just be like T-W-I, like twitter.com (laughs) and like-
- JKJake Knapp
Mm-hmm.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
... and then you see that login screen instead of, like, you know, my juicy feed and I'm like, "Oh yeah, right. Okay, I did that on purpose." Like great. Like I, I, I broke that, that like feedback loop a little bit.
- JKJake Knapp
I did a similar thing with Twitter/X, where I deleted the app and I just used the mobile website. I think this point of logging out is really powerful. I think people haven't heard that idea as much because... It's not like you can't log in really easily, just click a couple of things and you're back, but to your point, it's reminds you like, "Okay, I see. I really shouldn't have done this."
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Well, I also signed up for two-factor authentication for, for everything, not because I care about somebody hacking my account, but because it's another speed bump. Like it's, um... Because that way even if you've s-... Like even if your, your browser remembers your password or like... I use 1Password, so like even if it, like, you know, the, the browser extension is gonna, like, fill it in for me, there's still another step. (laughs) So it's like-
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
It's, it's sort of like, um, reverse engineering my own distractibility.
- JKJake Knapp
That feature that everyone's always talking about that Apple built of, like, the code being automatically there in the keyboard, like that's counter to this friction that-
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Yeah.
- JKJake Knapp
... you've created. Um-
- 51:12 – 57:28
Creating intentional friction to avoid distractions
- JKJake Knapp
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Yeah, yeah. That's true. Yeah.
- JKJake Knapp
Okay. So what's interesting is I had this and then I just like, "Goddamn it, I really just want to be on Twitter." And so I just re-... I installed it again recently, and I don't know how to... I need to, like, fight that again.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Well, you know, I, I go through cycles like that too, and I, I go through that a lot with email. So-
- JKJake Knapp
Mm-hmm.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
... um, Jake, you still don't have email on your phone, is that right?
- JKJake Knapp
No. That would... (laughs) No, I would just be on the floor, uh, checking email right now.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Yeah, and so-
- JKJake Knapp
And so I'll just call if I did it on the floor. (laughs)
- JZJohn Zeratsky
I, I used to do that. Like Jake, Jake inspired me, like, a long time ago to, to, like, remove email from my phone, and so, like, for years and years that's been my default. But I, uh, more recently I've, like, had more reasons to install it, mostly related to travel. If I'm, like, on the go-
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah, yeah.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
... and I just, like, want to stay on top of things. And, and, like, something that Jake and I have talked about a lot is, like, you kind of go through these different cycles of like, "Hey, I need this thing," or, "I want this thing," and then, like, part of the, the, the reflect step, like part of paying attention and reflecting on how it's going is to, like, recognize, like, "Oh, wow, I've actually been spending a lot of time, like, on email on my phone or a lot of time on Twitter. Like, maybe I'll just uninstall it for a while." You know? "Maybe I'll just, like, reset, you know, and, and do that for a while." And then there will be some other thing that happens that causes you to re-install it, and like that's totally fine because you're being deliberate about it and you're paying attention, um, rather than saying, like, "It has to always be this way forever," and it's set in stone.
- JKJake Knapp
That's a great tip of just, like, coming back to not feeling like you're defeated. It's like, "All right, let's try this again." Yeah, I think a big part of it is if you can experience the feeling of not having it on your phone. It's like th-... Like I'm old enough to have lived in a world building products where there were no smartphones. And, like, we got a lot done back then. Like, it still... Things happened. I mean, for God's sake, like, they designed the first iPhone without being able to use iPhones while they did it. Like, you can do a lot. So this, you know, this idea that we have to have it or it's... Everything's gonna fall apart, that's just not true for 99.99999% of everyone. It's interesting to see what it feels like if you delete all of the infinity pools off of your phone. And this is something I did out of rage at myself in 2012, and I was... It was another situation where I was li-... I was with my kids, were much younger at the time, and I was, you know, f- spending time with them. We're playing wooden trains. And all of a sudden my son's like, "Dad, Dad, Dad, Dad, Dad." And I'm like, "God, what?" And I didn't even realize it, but I was on my phone. And I don't even remember what I was doing, e- email or something, but I, I think I told him, like, uh... He's like, "Well, what's on your ph- what's on your phone?" You know? 'Cause to him he was like, "We're doing something really fun, so if you're on your phone it must be something really cool. Maybe it would be a cool thing to share." Like, 'cause this is great, so it must be another great thing. He wasn't trying to, you know, shame me or anything. And I was like all defensive. I'm like, "Well, I need to do this for work," which was, I think, my internal monologue of why I was doing this thing that actually was just a really low friction dopamine hit. And, uh, and then I thought like, "What the... God, this is not what I wanted. This is not why I worked so hard today, so I would get done with my work so I could be home in time to do this before my kids go to bed." And I was like, "S- screw this." So I just started deleting things on my phone, and I deleted email, and I deleted Facebook, and I deleted just everything that had an infinity pool, everything that had an infinite amount of content. News is like this. You know, there's like... Anything str- streaming, right? And like when we wrote this book,... and when it, like, came out in 2018. And- and we- I think we said, like, it's gonna ... We thought it was gonna get worse and it has, but like, you know, at that point in time there was really, like, Netflix and now there's all these streaming services, right? A- at that point in time there was Instagram and Facebook, but now there's TikTok, like the best part of every video available instantly right here. Like, this stuff, it only gets harder to resist. When you clear all that stuff off of your phone, it's painful, right? The idea of, like, deleting all this stuff and each time the phone's gonna ask you, "This is gonna delete all the data and settings. Are you sure you want to do that?" You know?
- JZJohn Zeratsky
(laughs)
- JKJake Knapp
Like, it doesn't want you to. And- and when you do that though, just what does that feel like? And it's, you know, usually a feeling of discomfort but also relief that like, I don't have to check this. This thing, I don't have to check it. I don't ... I don't have to. And if you've ever felt like your phone was like in the Lord of the Rings, like, how Bilbo, or I guess ... Yeah, Lord of the Rings. They, like, they, like, they want to put their hand in their pocket and touch the ring.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
(laughs)
- JKJake Knapp
And they're like ... Or like, or put the ring on without even knowing it. Like, Frodo's like, "Oh, I don't even realize I did it." That's what this thing is like. And when you take those off, just that feeling of relief is to me so powerful. That having done this for a decade now, and yeah, there's exceptions, like I'm traveling, God, I have to check my email to ... for x reason and I install it and I check it. And then it automati- I over ... Like, because I'm aware of it I'll just feel this static, this ... There's this notion of attention residue and I think the researcher who coined this term is, uh, Sophie Leroy from the University of Washington. Anyway, you can look that up. I think I learned about that from Cal Newport. But this idea so it makes a lot of sense that you pay attention to some things and they just stick in your head and they create this static.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Mm-hmm.
- JKJake Knapp
Those apps just create this static. The idea of email being on my phone and accessible at any time creates a s- a discomfort, a disquiet that I ... It ... Like, now that I've seen it and felt what it's like to not have it, I could not imagine experiencing it. You do give some things up. You're not gonna be as responsive. John and I don't have as many Twitter followers as we have if we used Twitter, right? Like, um, there are ... There are these things that, like, you look at other people and I just saw a post on LinkedIn 'cause I haven't used John's plugin yet. But, like, I looked on this post and it was like, uh, a colleague that I used to have and she was saying like, "Yeah, s- you know, I posted a few tweets last year and, uh, a couple of them went viral and I gained 30,000 followers." And I was like, "Man, all I have is 30,000 followers." And I ... That- that was from, you know, years and years ago and, like, I thought I was a pretty big deal with thir- ... Oh, jeez, I should ... Maybe I should ... And then I was like, oh God, like, don't do it-
- JZJohn Zeratsky
(laughs)
- JKJake Knapp
... 'cause I know when I'm doing it then I'll be thinking about it all the time and the attention residue will, like, spoil my life.
- 57:28 – 1:07:58
Curating a distraction-free phone
- JKJake Knapp
So yeah, anyways, sorry, that's just like a rant. But like, I just ... Y- y- you should try it. The distraction free phone thing is just worth trying. Take off ... If you can, take off everything. If not, just try taking off the thing that's your kryptonite. What's the thing that y- you know is the hardest for you to resist? Sucks your attention the most? Makes you feel not good? Take it off for ... Try it for a day or try it for two hours just to feel that feeling. And then once you've felt the feeling, you'll always know, like, I could release that and then I think that's powerful.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
And I think when you delete, it's important to know it's not actually ... Nothing's being deleted when you're deleting the app. Like, you can reinstall it, you log in, it's all the same.
- JKJake Knapp
It's all the same. That's an important point. They make it sound like, oh my God, this is a big deal. It's not. Like, this-
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Yeah. Just have to remember your password or Google auth or whatever you're using. Uh, this metaphor of (laughs) the Lord of the Rings and the ring is so good for how it feels to just like, "I'm just gonna check Twitter. I'm just ... What's the problem? I'm just gonna check it again. I'll just check it, check it again."
- JKJake Knapp
(laughs)
- JZJohn Zeratsky
That's so good. And then, th- in Lord of the Rings, the way they f- resist the ring is they hide it, they put it somewhere else, they give it to Frodo to take it, right? That's like the same solution is just like-
- JKJake Knapp
(laughs)
- JZJohn Zeratsky
... I can't get access to it. It's over there.
- JKJake Knapp
Right. Right.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Frodo's like-
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah. Like, you gotta be like Gandalf, like, you know, even if that ring would do great things for you, you gotta give it to Frodo for a while, you know-
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Wow.
- JKJake Knapp
... maybe show up at the end with an eagle.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Those two eary- Yeah, yeah, the eagle.
- JKJake Knapp
Scoop him up.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Yeah. Oh, man. So the key tips here are finding the apps that are sucking your attention, could be Twitter, could be LinkedIn, could be your email, and delete them and/or log out of them. What else? Th- there's a few tactics that Jake and I both use that are related to, like, TV, um, like watching TV and like-
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
... a really simple one which is also, like, kind of a, kind of a luxury one, but- but I think there are ways to do it that are, like, pretty universal is just, like, not having a TV in your main, like, living space. Like, again, not having the default be like, "I'm- I'm home, the TV is on." Like, "What are we watching?" And so, like, you know, f- for- for me and- and- and my wife, that's- that's always been like the TV is just, like, in a different room. Um, and like, Jake, y- you guys, do you use a, like a projector like where you ... Like, if you wanna watch something, you have to, like, get it out, set it up and, like, make a decision-
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
... to watch something?
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah. So it's like a, it's like a bit of a project.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Mm-hmm.
- JKJake Knapp
And it's like, it doesn't take that long, but you definitely are not just like click. Like, it's- it's, uh ... And you don't see it when it's not set up. So we have, like, a- a projection screen that's all kind of folded up and, you know, in the corner and, uh, and the projector's like in a cabinet. So you gotta get it out and get a chair and put it on there and, like, if you're motivated enough, you know, you can do it. But it's ... It takes a few minutes.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
You need, like, an old-timey camera that you have to, like, wind with like the, you know-
- JKJake Knapp
(laughs) Yeah. Right. Yeah.
- JZJohn Zeratsky
Someone has to sit there.
- JKJake Knapp
Here's another one that- that- that-
- JZJohn Zeratsky
A piano in the back. (laughs)
- JKJake Knapp
Yeah. (laughs) Right. Another one that's, uh, really helpful for me that actually it sort of, uh, bridges, like, the laser, uh, section and the energized section because it relates to sleep is, um, like, I don't keep my phone in my ... in the bedroom. Like, the phone doesn't come in the bedroom. Um, and not only that, like, I h- ... The place where it charges, like, the- the MagSafe, like, little, like, charging place for it is- isn't, uh, like, downstairs. It's, like, on a different floor. It's in the kitchen. So it's like, when I put that there at, like, the end of the night and, like, I go, like, upstairs, like, I might still be awake for, like, an hour. Like, I might, you know, might read, I might, like, get ready for bed, like, all, you know, all those things. Like-
- JZJohn Zeratsky
... but, like, the phone is a way to make sure that I- that the- the last thing I do each day is not, like, on my phone. That- that's super helpful to me, and that's, I think there's a bunch of ways, whether it's in a drawer or in a cabinet, like, there's a bunch of ways you can implement that- that tactic that, uh, I think could make a big difference.
- 1:07:58 – 1:14:51
Resetting expectations and slowing your inbox
- LRLenny Rachitsky
yeah, let's hear a couple more tactics, and then let's touch on the other two parts of this framework.
- JKJake Knapp
Well, first a pairing, and then one more. The pairing is reset expectations and slow your inbox. So these are two, two tactics related to, um, mostly to email and messaging. But so resetting expectations is just about having, uh, you know, m- maybe a conversation with people you work with, but it can be as simple as a, a signature in your email. And so, uh, the, one, one great example of this is a signature that says, "I'm checking email, um, two times a day as an experiment to improve my focus." Or, "I'm checking email, you know, on- once or twice a day," you decide how spicy you wanna get with this option, um, "Because I'm working on an important project." And just a simple line that people will see passively as you send emails that will reset their expectations of how quickly you'll respond. And, uh, you know, if, if you like, you can say, "I'm checking email once a day because I'm working on a big project. You can text me if it's urgent. Feel free to text me if it's urgent." You can invite people to do so. Uh, but that very act of just, like, putting it in there, you can also do it as an out-of-office autoresponder. So just like, "Hey," like instead of, "I'm actually out of the office," like, "Hey, I'm gonna be slower, slow to respond to email because I'm working on an important project." That because is really important, and we talk in the book about this in a funny study about the power of because and this case where people would s- sort of make up bogus excuses, but they'd say because, like, to cut a line. It's an old study. They were making photocopies, uh, but they would cut the line and say, "I need to cut the line because I need to make copies." And just saying because, like, dr- dramatically boosted (laughs) the percentage of the time that person would let them cut the line. We're suckers for, uh, explanations, all of us. If you say because, people will feel better, and you can feel better about saying it. But this, this idea that you're just gonna, like, have, you know, put up a placard basically that says, like, "Hey, I'm, I'm slow to respond because I'm working on a project," and maybe give people an escalation path or don't, that's a huge deal.
Episode duration: 1:35:38
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