Lenny's Podcast

Ivan Zhao: Why Notion hides no-code Lego inside productivity

Through sugar-coated broccoli framing and a willingness to reset: Notion threw away its developer tool to find PMF as productivity software.

LRLenny RachitskyhostIZIvan Zhaoguest

Mar 6, 2025·1h 12m·Watch on YouTube ↗

📖 CHAPTERS

1. 1
   0:00 – 4:41

   Introduction to Ivan Zhao

2. 2
   4:41 – 7:46

   Ivan’s early life and education

3. 3
   7:46 – 10:49

   Discovering the vision for Notion

4. 4
   10:49 – 13:56

   The lost years of Notion

5. 5
   13:56 – 17:14

   Rebuilding and perseverance

6. 6
   17:14 – 18:53

   Layoffs and company morale

7. 7
   18:53 – 25:08

   Advice for startup founders

8. 8
   25:08 – 29:56

   Product-market fit

9. 9
   29:56 – 34:27

   Staying lean and efficient

10. 10
    34:27 – 37:20

    Creating a unique office culture

11. 11
    37:20 – 38:44

    Craft and values: the foundation of Notion’s philosophy

12. 12
    38:44 – 41:24

    Navigating tradeoffs in product and business building

13. 13
    41:24 – 49:11

    Leadership and personal growth

14. 14
    49:11 – 51:08

    Challenges and crises: lessons from Notion’s journey

15. 15
    51:08 – 1:02:40

    Building horizontal software: joys and pains

16. 16
    1:02:40 – 1:06:17

    Philosophy of tools and human potential

17. 17
    1:06:17 – 1:12:17

    Lightning round and final thoughts