Qasar Younis: Why AI's real boom is farms, mines, and trucks

1. 0:00 – 4:01

   Introduction to Qasar and Applied Intuition

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky0:00

      You decided to join Twitter recently. You put out your first tweet. Marc Andreessen quote tweeted it and said, "This is the best AI CEO nobody knows."

   2. QYQasar Younis0:08

      Our best work is done alone and quietly. Every minute you're writing something for public consumption, you're not focusing your very limited time that you have on your customers and your product.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky0:16

      You're building a lot of the future that we're gonna be living in. What does the next couple years look like?

   4. QYQasar Younis0:21

      Us solving some of these impossible problems like cancer are directly gonna be related to this AI boom. Net suffering in humanity overall should go down significantly.

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky0:32

      A thread that has emerged on this podcast is that AI is coming just in time to save us.

   6. QYQasar Younis0:36

      The real impact of AI in the next five to 10 years really is gonna be in farming, mining, construction. These industries, they need autonomy, and it couldn't come soon enough. If you look at farmers, the average age of a farmer is in their late fifties. What does that mean in 10 years from now?

   7. LRLenny Rachitsky0:53

      There's a lot of anxiety about what AI is gonna do to the world.

   8. QYQasar Younis0:56

      The core root of fear is misunderstanding. If you at home are very anxious about AI, the best thing that you can do is spend time to understand, and you will quickly see the limitations. Get to know it, then actively make the technology be used for good.

   9. LRLenny Rachitsky1:14

      [instrumental music playing] Today my guest is Qasar Younis, co-founder and CEO of Applied Intuition. You've probably never heard of Qasar or Applied Intuition. This is the most important under-the-radar AI company and CEO that I've ever come across. It's a fifteen-billion-dollar company that has been growing quietly over the last decade. What they do is they add AI to vehicles like cars, tractors, planes, submarines, mining rigs, and a lot more. Eighteen out of the top twenty automakers are customers as well as the biggest global construction, mining, and trucking companies, also the Department of Defense. They're basically Waymo or Tesla, but without the hardware. Qasar himself was born on a farm in Pakistan, grew up in Detroit, started his career as an engineer at GM and then at Bosch. He then went on to start a couple companies before starting Applied Intuition. I love everything about this episode, and I am so excited to bring it to you. Don't forget to check out lennysproductpass.com for an incredible set of deals available exclusively to Lenny's Newsletter subscribers. Let's get into it after a short word from our wonderful sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Omni. Many product teams today are in the process of debating how to ship AI analytics. The hard part is obvious. Having an LLM guess at SQL in production is a huge mess and just a bad idea. Omni takes a different approach. They have a semantic layer built in so that when you embed their analytics, the AI actually knows your business definitions, not just your raw tables. You can test queries, validate the reasoning, and lock down permissions before anything hits production. If you want AI analytics in your product without building the whole stack from scratch, check out omni.co/lenny for a free three-week trial. Companies like Perplexity, DBT, and BuzzFeed use Omni to ship analytics their customers can trust. That's O-M-N-I dot C-O slash lenny. My podcast guests and I love talking about craft and taste and agency and product market fit. You know what we don't love talking about? SOC two. That's where Vanta comes in. Vanta helps companies of all sizes get compliant fast and stay that way with industry-leading AI, automation, and continuous monitoring. Whether you're a startup tackling your first SOC two or ISO twenty-seven oh-oh-one or an enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta's trust management platform makes it quicker, easier, and more scalable. Vanta also helps you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster so that you can win bigger deals sooner. The result, according to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers slashed over five hundred thousand dollars a year and are three times more productive. Establishing trust isn't optional. Vanta makes it automatic. Get one thousand dollars off at vanta.com/lenny.

2. 4:01 – 8:49

   The optimistic vision: How AI will create abundance

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky4:05

      [instrumental music playing] Qasar, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast.

   2. QYQasar Younis4:09

      Thanks for having me.

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky4:10

      You're basically building, uh, a lot of the future that we're gonna be living in, and people may not even realize this. And then kind of there's two sides to this. On the one side, let me ask you this question. If things go really well, what does the next couple years look like for people with the emergence of AI, with physical AI? What are, what are-- what's a vision of the future?

   4. QYQasar Younis4:28

      Let me take the broader AI point and then the, the, the micro, the more, uh, specific one on physical AI. M-macro, I, I think... Th-think about this like the Industrial Revolution, right? So if you're sitting, let's say in the late eighteen hundreds, there's a lot of... You know, we can focus on a lot of bad things that happened because of the Industrial Revolution, right? You have child labor, and you have monopolies emerging, and you have abuse of... You know, your, your wars end up happening. Uh, but there's also... It's an almost, almost unimaginable present without the v-values and wi-without the, without the kinda benefits we got out of the Industrial Revolution, which is broader access to healthcare like we've never seen before, bro-- like access to goods, material goods, things like we take for granted, like heating and cooling your home. There, there's this, uh, there, there's this great, um, YouTube kind of channel that focuses on POW letters from Germans who are seeing America in the early forties, and they're writing letters back to Germany about what they're seeing as they're basically, you know, prisoners of war. And they're kind of blown away that the towns that they roll by in these trains as they're going to [chuckles] their POW camps are all lit up or that there's cars everywhere. Eighty percent of German towns in World War II did not have electricity, and that's kind of a mind-bending kind of thing 'cause we just assume all this stuff, all this technology is, you know, uh, equally distributed. So the positive version is these things that we... Let's say folks who areUh, wealthy or folks who have access to technology, these things everybody has access to. The, the, the fact like simply having somebody who's a coach to you and having that coach very specifically to you, not a generic, you know, ChatGPT that's giving fairly generic answers, that's a very powerful thing. I think us solving some of these impossible problems like cancer are directly gonna be related to this AI boom. Uh, so I think net suffering in humanity, I think just like the Industrial Revolution overall should go down and should go down significantly. And I'm a fundamental optimist in that view that technology will bring that, that, that, uh, that, that positivity. In physical AI specifically, again, you know, when you, when you have things like your, uh, you have your own car and you have the ability, you have your limbs and you have your, your senses and you can drive, you take these kind of things for granted. You jump in your car and you go to the store. Uh, for somebody who maybe is disabled or somebody who doesn't have the money to afford a vehicle, access to mobility that's nearly free or is free is a big deal. And that like simple example of making self-driving cars free for everybody and how that would change the planet, you live in Rwanda and you are two hours from the nearest hospital, that matters as in, in a very, very true way. And so I think a l- a lot of, let's say, the negativity around AI comes from people who, frankly speaking, are living in a very, very good existence. And when you live on the other edge of society, yes, and I'm not like some naive person who thinks that there's no downsides of technology, w-we can discuss that, but I, I, I just see there's a l- a lot more positive. So when you ask that question, what's the next-- forget three to five years, what's the next twenty years? These things that we take for g- uh, for granted that are bad, uh, suddenly are not there. Uh, and I think, I think certain diseases, uh, certain in- a- a- accessibility to basic, uh, you know, uh, services suddenly start going away. Yeah. One last example that is you take just the fact that you can message people basically for free. You know, for people old enough [laughs] like this is not the norm. We came from Pakistan. We couldn't even communicate back to Pakistan because the long distance, you know, was so expensive, and so it was handwritten letters. Today, you can basically contact anybody on the planet basically for free. There's obvious downsides for that, but there, there's a lots of upsides for that, which is being in touch with people that you care about and you love basically for free. And so I think AI has the ability to bring this abundance to many, many more people, um, at a near free, uh, you know, f-

3. 8:49 – 12:58

   Why anxiety about AI comes from misunderstanding—and how to fight fear with knowledge

   1. QYQasar Younis8:49

      free cost.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky8:50

      On the flip side of this, as you pointed out, there's a lot of, there's a lot of anxiety about what AI is gonna do to the world, to jobs, uh, robots. There are like these videos coming out of China with these robots with nunchucks, uh, like the stock market is-

   3. QYQasar Younis9:04

      I, I feel-- You know what? I feel-

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky9:06

      Yeah

   5. QYQasar Younis9:06

      ... the Nunchuck Union is up at arms with that [laughs] .

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky9:09

      [laughs] How dare they? Yeah. But it's, you know, it's scary and the, you know, the market's reacting more and more to just like, oh, wow, these companies are maybe not gonna survive long term. Uh, again, being at the s- the center of this and, and building a lot of the s- the stuff that'll get us there, how do you, how do you envision the next couple years playing out? Like, are you optimistic? What keeps you optimistic? Any advice to people that, to help them kind of stay, you know, calm through this period?

   7. QYQasar Younis9:36

      Those are the two separate things, anxiety around a technical shift and then the, and public investors reacting-

   8. LRLenny Rachitsky9:43

      Yeah. Yeah

   9. QYQasar Younis9:43

      ... to specific stocks they've held. We have to separate those things.

   10. LRLenny Rachitsky9:46

       Yeah.

   11. QYQasar Younis9:46

       So let's talk about them separately. On the first one, you know, uh, the, the, the core root of fear is, is misunderstanding. And I think the, if you at home are very anxious about the impact of AI in some variant on your own job, the best thing that you can do is spend time to understand it, and you will quickly see the limitations. There are some great videos on, uh, YouTube, which are like, you know, trying to get Gemini to understand what a cup is by just holding it upside down, and it like really str- and then to do it with, you know, ChatGPT. So it's like if the, if the revolution is coming, you know, the AI overlords have to first understand like the top and bottom of a cup. And so you realize that you can see the video of nunchuck-wielding humanoids, which are pre-programmed and that cost fifteen million dollars to do that video. Um, yeah, that, that is true. It's not, it's not fake. I'm not, I'm not implying it's fake. But it's also not what your brain kind of fills in the gaps. You see nunchuck robots, and you just feel like, well, the gap, you know, these, these are sentient beings that are at their own volition going rather than it's a bunch of motors that have been programmed to do a certain thing. If you really wanna be impressed, you go to a car factory, and z- z- we've been doing that for twenty-five years. We have very, very advanced robots moving extremely fast to build things. And why are we don't-- we have anxiety about the car factory, but we have anxiety about the nunchuck robots, is because the human being doesn't-- like that gap, we understand the gap of a, you know, of a welding robot. You say, "Oh, okay, that's a robot. It's been programmed to make this weld." But we don't know the technol- we as in just as an individual human being living in, you know, in the world, you don't know how that robot was made to do that nunchuck thing, and so you substitute that with anxiety and fear. And so I would really implore you to, you know, kind of learn more about the technology, and you start seeing the edges. Now, does that take away from the most fundamental thing that you're getting at, the string that you're pulling at, which is, like is society going to be fundamentally harmed, um, and is this, you know, net, net bad for society? I think in any technical shift, the emergence of WhatsAppJust as a example, there are people who are damaged by that. Literally companies that go away, but also humans who are damaged by the advent of that technology. And so I think as members of society and as leaders in society, we can, we can kind of move that funnel in whichever way. A-a, you know, technology first. Remove the word AI. AI is such a, like, emotional word and because it, it's wrapped in these things you don't know. And so that fear then kind of deforms... So let's just say technology, you know. So the, it, the, so, so I think it's, it's up to us to recognize this technology can be used for good and technology can be used for bad. And I think that's where really the, the focus is. So get to know it and then actively make the technology be used for good, uh, as a participant, whether you're founder or all the way as, as a, as an individual, you know, employee or citizen of

4. 12:58 – 16:31

   The market sell-off explained

   1. QYQasar Younis12:58

      a large company. Then on the second part of the question about, you know, public investors and stuff, this is my-- I, I don't have any, you know, particular research on this, but this is what my guess is what's actually happened. Uh, be-beyond being an engineer, which is w-my, my core identity, for the lack of a better word, um, I was also... I did an MBA at Harvard, and so that was the first time that this, uh, let's say, d-you know, I didn't come from very, uh, you know, a [laughs] very, very kind of wealthy upbringing. This was the first time when I went to Harvard, I saw, like, you know, that world. That world of people having, like, private jets and stuff. It was a really eye-opening experience for me. But the real world I was exposed to was high finance and how high finance works. And you might think, as I did from far away, that folks in, at hedge funds or at large, you know, public equities funds are extremely nuanced and thoughtful, and they are like, you know, on whiteboards with, [laughs] you know, you know, uh, extremely deep and, and, oh, maybe even theoretical math to figure out should they buy or sell, you know, Figma. And that's not actually how it works. I mean, and really what these folks are is... In, in this specific case, I think what's happening is they are-- They buy and sell stock. They are smart people, and they do work hard. It's not to take, take that away, but they, they don't have a fundamental edge that you would assume that, uh, somebody who sits in a, you know, skyscraper in New York has. And by the way, that's why retail investors have, have, have become such a, a, active and, and, and, and kind of sig-significant part of the market. So those folks have gone to AI consultants and have gone to people who are literally developers, uh, at these firms, and they'll do something like, "Hey, why don't you build me this app in a week?" And then, you know, this, like, consultancy will come back with an app which kinda looks like maybe a Figma or another, you know, some, some, some web app. And to that hedge fund manager, they're like, "Well..." And then, you know, if, if the company was sitting there, they would say, "No, no, this is... This just looks like my app, but this is actually not my app. It's not as deep. It doesn't have all these things. It doesn't have the integrations with all these other, other systems." But for the in-- public investor buyer, they're like, "Yeah, but it only took, like, a few weeks or a month to build this. It took you five hundred engineers a couple of years. This AI thing could be real, and the things I'm reading on X about, like, just vibe coding your way to replace, you know, billion-dollar companies, that might be the case," and the market immediately prices in that risk, and that's where that sell-off comes from. That doesn't necessarily mean all of those... I mean, uh, just within the last twenty-four hours, I had a, uh, a, s- I, I would-- I, I can't say his name, but like a very, uh, let's say, a calibrated investor who said, "This is the time to buy because these companies are not actually going away." And it, and, and, so I think those are two... Anxiety within society and the sell-off are two very different things. They're motivated by different things. They're part of the larger AI narrative, but I wouldn't conflate those two things. It's not that the, the hedge fund investor is like, "I'm worried about society. Sell service now." [laughs] Like, it's, it's... There's the, the... It's, it's different than that, or at least that's my impression.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky16:09

      This is the alpha we've been talking about, time to buy. This is not investment advice. [laughs] Well, that's really good advice.

   3. QYQasar Younis16:15

      I think the real advice is to, to fight fear, and I feel that anxiety, especially when I go to Michigan and I, I, you know, outside of people in the Silicon Valley bubble. It's like, just, just try to learn a little bit, uh, about the technology that you're afraid of and, and you'll start seeing some

5. 16:31 – 20:22

   Self-driving cars: Why 30,000 annual deaths prove we need autonomy now

   1. QYQasar Younis16:31

      of the, the edges.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky16:32

      I love your point about how self-driving cars are essentially robots. We don't call them that, but they're robots. Uh-

   3. QYQasar Younis16:38

      Absolutely

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky16:38

      ... and you see an untruck wheeling robot. A self-driving car doing bad things is-- could be very dangerous already. Uh, and so that's a really good reframe, that if you just think of it as just another robot, and it's been really good for us.

   5. QYQasar Younis16:50

      And by the way, the self-driving thing, a-as an example, you know, whichever way you slice, uh, the statistics that are available from self-driving companies, they're supremely, supremely more safe than human drivers. And I, I do believe in twenty or thirty years, not that much longer, we'll look back and we'll kinda be like... It's kinda like we think about child labor. You know, in, in post-industrial revolution, that was a normal thing. You would send kids who are in middle school to go work. It happens in third-world countries today. It's, there isn't a lot of emotion behind it. It is not considered to be exploitative because you have no choice. You know, everyone's just... And I think we'll look back in twenty-five, thirty years and we're like, "People were just, like, tired, uh, under the influence, you know, aft- like extremely stressed, going through a traumatic life, you know, experience, and then they jump into [laughs] a car." Like that, that, that, that's, that... It's, it's, it is crazy. And, and just for everyone, everyone should really emotionally think about just in the United States, over thirty thousand people will die in the next year from these accidents. That like, yeah, the, the old Stalin line, it's like, uh-You know, a mill-- a, a one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic.

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky18:06

      Mm.

   7. QYQasar Younis18:07

      And we just let the statistic kind of go over our head like, "Oh, it's thirty thousand people." But if you ever b- have talked to a family of somebody who went through a tragedy like a car accident, it is an... it's unbelievable. And, and, and you know, you, you suddenly all the fear of AI robots goes away, and you really see the human impact, and you realize, like, actually us driving doesn't make sense, and it's not for any other reason than literally people die.

   8. LRLenny Rachitsky18:32

      I've become a, a huge, uh... I have a Tesla, and the self-- I just use self-driving all the time now. Just, like, a few months ago it got very good, and it's... It, it used to be nerve-wracking, and now it's like, "Wow, this is much better than I am."

   9. QYQasar Younis18:42

      And, and, and you're doing... You're, you're not using-- You're not doing driving as a job. Imagine if you're a commercial truck driver or you work in a mine-

   10. LRLenny Rachitsky18:51

       Mm

   11. QYQasar Younis18:51

       ... or you work, you know... Like, there, a little bit of intelligence, a helping hand in that very dangerous task, it's, it's in- it's, it's incredible. And I think there's something about the human brain where, you know, when you, when you bring up that, that reality of, like, self-driving trucks, the immediate people are like, "Well, what about the trucking jobs?" Now, needless to say that we don't have enough people who wanna do that job. [chuckles] So l-leave that fact to the side. I think the fact that you really focus on is the fact that people die from trucking accidents. Like, we, we, w-w... Like, we can't l- you know, throw out the baby with the bathwater. And so I think I implore everybody, you know, who thinks about AI broadly and physical AI specifically to always recognize that your monkey brain is programmed because of thousands of years [chuckles] of being in ca- you know, hundreds of thousands of years of living out in the wild and being in the cave, that when you hear the rustle in the bush, that is-- you think it's a snake because that's what our ancestors were programmed. So now when something new enters our f- psyche, y-your, your s- your view isn't, "Well, if, if mining... If, if mines became autonomous, well, wouldn't that lose jobs?" It's like those are awful jobs that people die in, and the best evidence is that people don't wanna work in them. Like, that's the best evidence. Like, no-nobody's clamoring to go work in a, in a mine in a remote area. And so intelligence can help make that, you

6. 20:22 – 28:00

   The spectrum of physical AI

   1. QYQasar Younis20:22

      know, make that reality much, much better.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky20:24

      People are seeing AI advance in all these different ways on the software side. You know, they see all these models being released. It, it's driving hundred percent of people's code now. What's really cool about you is you see the hardware side of this, and I think one of the biggest changes to our lives will probably be robots walking around doing things for us. Do you have a sense of just how close we are to just robots around us day to day?

   3. QYQasar Younis20:45

      So I would think about the, this, uh, the f- the framing here matters again. Yeah, of, on a spectrum. So there are robots around us like, uh, Zoombas, you know, like that, uh, c- uh, uh, clean your carpet while you're sleeping. Uh, there's robots around you when you make a coffee. There's-- That's an automated machine that is taking an input and doing a bunch of things based on your, you know, your, your, what y- what you need. So what you're really talking about is how fast can we go up that spectrum to where you have a robot that can take on lots of tasks with little guidance? And the way that I would think about this is, let's say we're sitting in-- This podcast is happening not in twenty twenty-six but two thousand six, and you're asking me the same question about mobile. And you say, "Well, mobile is coming." This is, remember, pre-iPhone, uh, which comes out in '07. Everyone has got those flip phones, so we have some-- We have mobile. It's not like a completely, you know... Uh, so we have some robots around us already. But, like, it's like, okay, so what, when are we gonna-- And you ask me in two thousand six, "When are we gonna get that Star Trek phone that can do everything?" And I think at that time I would say, because I don't even know the iPhone is coming a year later, I would say, "Well, Lenny, I don't, I don't know. Maybe it's one to five years." And if it's not five years later that Uber, WhatsApp, Instagram, Snapchat are all products, and they're being consumed by many, many, many millions of people. So what happens when you think about sitting in two thousand six, and why can't your brain s- figure out that Instagram is coming? Instagram is very hard to even conceive without phones that have an app store, have cameras on both sides, are available, generally available, that lots of people have it, and the fact that people are comfortable being on social networks. In two thousand six, it's still an early thing. This is pre-Twitter, and Facebook is not that big. And MySpace is, but it's not the same type of private k- k- kind of communica- And so, so the, the, the, the point I'm making is I think it can come pretty fast, but the way and the form factor it'll come is hard to pick, just like it's hard to figure out Instagram's gonna happen because the, the, the intelligence in that particular type of hardware which will be generally available, that's a key word, generally available, is really gonna impact the use cases. So I think, like, the most obvious use cases that will come early are going to be use cases where you get the most amount of bang for buck, and the bang for buck is a car that drives itself or a mining robot which is a mining vehicle which is now intelligent. And the reason is all that, you know, let's say engineering required to make this giant, you know, machine that moves dirt has already been done. It's been done over the last, you know, fifty, sixty years. So then you're just im- putting a little bit of intelligence into it and leveraging everything else that, that, that the, you know, companies and, and, and, and kind of people have developed. So I think, I mean, I... And I'm not just, you know, pitching my own book. I mean, we're a physical AI company. I, I, I continue to believe that we're-- I think our brain emotionally loves the humanoid concept because of we're monkeys [chuckles] and-- but actually, uh, just, like, more pragmatically, it's actually just putting intelligence into things that already exist all around us. And I think-- And then once that happens, the new applications will emergeWhich I think we'll talk about in five to seven years, uh, which will be- which we'll start seeing. So let's, let's just move forward five to seven years, and let's see what reality exists, and then maybe we can try to jump into the future from there. I think generally speaking, every, every single car company on the planet right now is working on a product that's like a Tesla FSD product. Every single car company there, without exception. Uh, many, many companies are working in versions of that that will become fully autonomous within a cheap sensor suite. So the, the fundamental difference, just to simplify it all, the Tesla approach versus the Waymo approach, just to really keep it simple, is the Waymo approach is lots of sensors and lots of compute and maps, and the Tesla version is very few sensors, no maps or, you know, no high-fidelity maps and just generalizing here, and, uh, cheaper compute, for the lack of a better word. And be- the Tesla version of a product, uh, this is in the industry is called an L2++ product j-- is gonna be available everywhere because it's literally cheaper and it doesn't require like HD maps. The Waymo product functions better in a geographically constrained area. So you fast-forward five years, both of these types of technologies will be much more ubiquitous. L2++ and L4 will be much more ubiquitous, not only in the Bay Area or in parts of China, but really globally. The-the-there are companies working on this globally. So now, do you... I don't know if you remember, but nav systems used to be a big deal in cars.

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky25:31

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   5. QYQasar Younis25:31

      You would pay thousands of dollars, and nav systems were kind of the thing that everybody wanted. We're at that moment for L2++ systems, where like people are willing to pay thousands of dollars for an, a semi-automated vehicle. It will not be a long time, you're already seeing this happen in China, where the downward pricing pressure for that autonomous product, for the lack of a better word, will become close to free. So now you fast-forward five to seven years and every car has some level of autonomy. So now you have to like mentally live in that reality, that everybody who's buying a car, they just get FSD with it. Now you start seeing a different world because now the a-average person isn't wondering is self-driving gonna come. They, they use it all the time. They don't wonder are nav sy- And so what you have in nav systems is a CarPlay emerges and Android Auto emerges, and it's very natural. People are like, "Oh, I have my phone. I just plug it in." And, and it wasn't a big revolution, but the CarPlay and Android Auto revolution is actually huge. It brings free navigation and free applications to your car, and it's fairly ubiquitous. And so I think the next thing hap- that happens in five to seven years is then full autonomy becomes the thing that everyone expects. And so I think a-and all of that, and you will see a clear decrease in injuries and death, uh, because of that, uh, because you have some intelligence helping you help, help drive. Now, again, I am using the consumer vehicle analogies just so people can understand it, but this is the same in construction, it's the same in mining, it's the same in defense. It's the s- it's in every one of these verticals. There's these big physical machines that humans are interacting with, that teaming up with that machine is the future. The productivity unlocked from just you looking at a machine, not like a sentient being, but, but, but almost like an, a physical agent of something you're trying to accomplish unlocks things that I think are very hard to think about. So I, I love, you know, you know, things like Malt Book, and I love o- the, let's say, OpenClaw revolution that's happening for the lack of a better word. But I think the big impact, that's still s- that's still such a small part of society. My, my, my, my barometer of impact is like you go to, you know, the, the Detroit Airport and you sit in a gate and you look around and you're like, "How many people here are using OpenClaw?" And it's like [laughs] it's like, like you might be the only person who knows what that is. And, uh, and whereas everybody, they're living their lives. They're... And, and so it's like to them, actually the f- the impact of AI is gonna be in this physical-

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky27:57

      Mm.

   7. QYQasar Younis27:57

      -physical world. I see you also have a-- You have s- yeah, there you

7. 28:00 – 33:26

   How AI is coming just in time

   1. QYQasar Younis28:00

      go. [laughs]

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky28:00

      Check it out. I'm a convert. OpenClaw.

   3. QYQasar Younis28:02

      There you go. Perfect. Perfect. [laughs]

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky28:04

      Peter's coming on the pod soon, so I got some, some lobster claws.

   5. QYQasar Younis28:07

      So I-- Yes, I think, I think the real impact of AI in the next five to ten years really is gonna be in farming, in mining, in construction, in self-driving trucks. That's where you're gonna ha-have a real impact. Though I think, I mean, I, I, I love the stuff that's happening on, on these platforms, but it's still segregated to like frankly developers and some, some, a small s- very, very small part of society.

   6. LRLenny Rachitsky28:33

      I wasn't planning to spend so much time here, but this is extremely interesting, and I think it's important for people to hear from folks like you about where things are heading because, as I said, everyone's just like, "What is happening? What is gonna be my future?" The jobs piece is really interesting, and you have a thread that has come, emerged on this podcast recently is that like people are afraid AI will take their jobs, but in reality, AI is coming just in time to save us because, uh, populations are declining, people are aging, and we need something to help us there. I know this is something you, and like this is something Mark talked about and you're really close with him. Help, help us feel better about just how AI isn't gonna take our jobs and actually gonna save, save us.

   7. QYQasar Younis29:13

      Yeah. I think, I think ho-honestly speaking, these industries, like they need autonomy. I mean, and, and, and, and, and it, and it couldn't come soon enough, uh, frankly speaking. Th-th-this is not like people are not fighting for those trucking jobs. Uh, if you look at farmers, the average age of a farmer is in their late fifties, fifty-eight or so. What, what does that mean in ten years from now? That means many of those farmers are going to be retiring if they're not already retired, and twenty years we have even a bigger, a bigger problem. That, by the way, is every vertical's like that. And I, you know, my hypothesis here, but u-unlike, you know, sometimes people say like, "Oh, you know, McDonald's can't hire," or like, you know, the, the mine, local quarry can't hire and where are all the people? Uh, the people are still here. I think they just, the trade-off is just not worth it anymore.In the 1980s and the 1990s, doing the long-haul trucking job was what the family has to sacrifice, the father not being there for, for days and weeks on end. And today, that same working-class family has-- can make that decision and say, "You know what? I will drive for Uber or DoorDash, and I'm willing to do that because I can turn that app off and pick up my kid, and I prioritize that." Th-th-the-- That is where I think this, you know, this, uh, this kind of intelligence kind of revolution in the real world is really, I think, is gonna fill those gaps in, um, rather than, like, an entire industry suddenly gone, and it's just automated. This is, this is, this is, this is-- I, I don't believe that future, mainly because the realities of actually, you know, uh, replacing an entire industry with robots is, is, is still-- that's too complex. One day it will happen, but it's not happening anytime soon. But the entire society will be different by that point. And I think, again, use the Industrial Revolution as, as a good version of that. I, I, uh, the, you know, the ear-the earlier question, if I'm somebody who is not in the AI ecosystem, and I have this anxiety, and, uh, how would I deal with it? Reading history books is a great way to really understand how society deals with this. And there are-- there's a lot of literature because Industrial Revolution doesn't happen like, you know, uh, in the dawn of Christianity where not many people are writing and not many people are reading. Lots of people are writing. Lots of people are reading in the, uh, in, in the last hundred and fifty years. And you can read both the people who are i-impacted by the Industrial Revolution, people who are benefiting from it, and writ large, it's a very positive experience. And that doesn't mean there, again, there, there are downsides. We should mitigate the downsides, but the thing that we can't do, and this is maybe specifically as America or society as, as the, the glo-global population as a whole, there's this impetus to say, like, "We gotta pump this brake on," again, don't say AI, say technology, "pump this brake on technology." The issue then is the American economy really ends up stuttering, and that impacts the lowest end of the label mark- labor market way more than anybody else. And so in the attempt to help the people who are the most marginalized, we actually hurt them the most. And, uh, the, the, you know, the, the s- the statistics between Europe and America are, you know, have been, have been, have been, are pretty explicit. But in the last decade, basically the American economy is, is now, you know, grown at a much higher pace, and that growth hasn't come from, you know, Detroit, Michigan. That growth has come from Mountain View, and it's come from Sunnyvale, it's come from the Bay Area, and which is another way of saying it's because of new frontier technologies. So putting brakes on frontier technologies because we're afraid of unintended consequences will actually have real intended consequences on people who we're trying to help the most. And the reality is very, very fundamental. In a future that does not take care of the average worker and the average person in America, we'll have much bigger problems. So we need a solution that takes that into account. But that solution isn't just pump the brakes, AI is bad, or frontier technology's bad, or technology's bad, or whatever, you know, whatever thing that you, you don't like. I think that, that'll have really, really bad

8. 33:26 – 39:12

   Why comparing Chinese AI companies to American AI companies is a category error

   1. QYQasar Younis33:26

      consequences.

   2. LRLenny Rachitsky33:27

      One of the reasons that we don't pump the brakes is just fear of China and competition with China, uh, the nunchuck robots, [chuckles] uh, being a recent example of like, "Oh, shit." Uh, and I know you have kind of a contrarian take on just how much of a threat China is and how they're approaching things.

   3. QYQasar Younis33:43

      The summary version of this is I think the way you-- we, we recently read as a company, we read this book, uh, House of Huawei, which is this really great, interesting book. And, uh, Huawei is a really amazing company, uh, for the reason that it makes great technology. But the couple hundred thousand people that work at Huawei, about a quarter of them are members of the Communist Party, and Huawei's goal is not to grow profits or shareholder. It's a private company. It's really a extension of the state. So it literally, the na-name Huawei means China's ambition. So imagine if you had a company called, you know, MAGA, and half of the company or a quarter of the company was a certain political party, and they said, "Our goal isn't to make profits or to v-- Our goal is just the, uh, expansion of..." It's not even a company anymore. It's, it's, it's something else, right? And so I think we incorrectly, when we, when we specifically speak of Americans, uh, we think about China, we impart our understanding of markets and companies onto China. So we think Huawei, s-since they make phones, they must be just like Apple. It's like, no, no, no, no, actually, they're not [chuckles] that's not like Apple at all. And so I think the first thing I would implore everybody who thinks about China, especially with anxiety in America, is you're not comparing companies to companies. This, this is not apples to apples. This is very, very different. And so imagine instead of thinking OpenAI is competing against, you know, DeepSeek, you say OpenAI is competing against the Chinese government. Instead of Apple competing against Huawei, Apple's competing against the Chinese government. And you can even remove the word Chinese go- government is the best word to, to define what this organization is. But it's not a for-profit, privately owned, independent group of people who are working on projects together to build, build products to, to market. So that's the first very important thing. You cannot treat China like another America or another Europe or another whatever. Number two is if your goal isn't to make profits, you can do incredible research, and it can be extremely compelling. But like we've seen, uh, if you're-- if the f- if the, if the system is not sustainable, that's also not a company. That's not sustainable. Let me give a very stark example of that.Chinese EVs are really lauded as being this exceptionally interesting product, right? And, uh, and you constantly get the stream of, I would say, fairly shallow analysis which says, "Look how good China is and look how bad Munich, Detroit, Tokyo, uh, Seoul are," the other, other epicenters for automotive, uh, globally. There is a Chinese EV-like company in America. It's called Rivian. Makes great products, uh, but they lose a lot of money making those products, and therefore the company is not very highly valued. I think if you said top 50 or top 100 companies in the Bay Area, I'm not sure Rivian would even make that list. And it's not that the products are bad or the people at Rivian are incompetent or they're not working hard, it's just the business is a tough business. The EV business and automotive is a tough business. So how can we hold these realities where we say, "Look how amazing these Chinese EV companies are and look how bad the home team is"? It's just because the home team is being assessed for being a business. It has to make profits. And because it doesn't, it gets hammered by public investors. The other thing is not even a company. Now, let's-- if we do it apples to apples, you just-- America just has, has to build great EVs. That means Tesla and everybody else combined, and we don't care about profits, I think America would field some very good products, and they would be wow products. So it's the, the comparisons are really, really off, and I think that's cr- creates an misunderstanding. I think, you know, then, then the little maybe the most philosophical question, can China succeed and does that mean America has to fail or vice versa? If you believe in open and free markets, you believe everybody can succeed in those markets, and that's been proven for over a hundred years. Uh, and I think what we're experiencing right now is how does China play in that ecosystem, because I said open and free markets, and those are not open and free markets. And so, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to have an antagonistic relationship. It certainly doesn't mean that China's incompetent, and it certainly doesn't mean that it's not-- doesn't warrant our attention and that i-i- our, our kind of, let's say, focus. But it's also not a one-to-one comparison. I think we should be very careful in implying it's a one-to-one comparison. And by the way, that like five-minute explanation is never gonna get to the average person sitting at an airport in Detroit, Michigan, waiting for their flight. They just... Th- all they consume is China bad [laughs] . Like it's like that's not... It's not like that. It's not that s- uh, it's not that simple. It's way more nuanced.

   4. LRLenny Rachitsky38:23

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9. 39:12 – 45:08

   Why Qasar finally joined Twitter after staying silent for a decade

   1. LRLenny Rachitsky39:14

      So you decided to join Twitter recently, put out your first tweet. Your first tweet was just like, "Hello, I'm gonna start tweeting." That tweet got like two million views. Uh, Elon replied to you. Marc Andreessen, uh, quote tweeted it and said, "This is the best AI CEO nobody knows. Follow for the-- for free alpha." Uh, Elad Gil, famed investor, describes you as the most successful, most quiet company in AI. And to me, this is really interesting because most founders are told, uh, "Build in public, build a following, be loud, get out there, talk all the time about what you're doing." You did the opposite. You're very under the radar, stayed quiet, build, build, build, and then decided later, "Okay, now time-- It's time to talk about our story." So I think this counter-narrative is really interesting, and I think will inspire a lot of founders to not feel like they have to do this. What was your just philosophy of just start-- staying quiet and then starting, yeah, to-

   2. QYQasar Younis40:06

      Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a great point. Um, so number one, it was intentional, and, and I think if it was up to me, it would-- we would do that forever. I think we're very much, um, inspired by folks more like a Berkshire Hathaway and less like, you know, let's say a Silicon Valley darling. And, um, the... I'll, I'll tell, tell why I changed the views and then just... But before some founders go and take that advice, uh, you know, [laughs] immediately without, without really thinking about it, I can do that because I'm known in the ecosystem. You know, I know these g- folks personally, and so I don't need to have a, uh, a brand out there that is getting Elad to, you know, remember me and think about me. And so if you're... You know, if I'm doing my first two companies, uh, were a lot less known. It was before I really, you know, became a YC. So, you know, a-all of our company values can be reduced to these two words of radical pragmatism. So before you take the advice, make sure it applies to your situation. One of the reasons... And Naval, who's one of our, uh, investors and, and a friend, uh, you know, says, you know, fame itself is like a tool and it's, and it's powerful. Now, if you don't have a network and you can get a following, that's a fantastic way to get, you know, to recruit people to your company, to recruit investors to your mission, and then of course, you know, uh, customers. And so, but for us, uh, and I think, I think that wasn't a hard requirement, you know, t- ten, ten-plus years ago. The other thing is I think Peter and I... Y- you know the, the old saying about life is kind of like you do things, and then you rationalize the thing that you do, right?

   3. LRLenny Rachitsky41:46

      Mm-hmm.

   4. QYQasar Younis41:47

      I think fundamentally, Peter and I, we don't get a lot of-- my co-founder, Peter Ludwig, we don't get a lot of emotional satisfaction out of doing very public things. And I think if I was really to play armchair psychologist and really try to get to the root of why, beyond the rational view, which is focus on your customers, focus on the product. Every minute you're doing a podcast, every minute you're doing an X post, every minute you're writing something for public consumption, you're not focusing your very limited time that you have on your customers and your product, and ultimately that's the only thing that's gonna produce and yield results. But the, but the, the, the, you know, the, the reality of the situation today of, you know, twenty twenty-six is even a company like us that's known or, or somebody like me is known in the ecosystem, you still wanna get that broader message out. And that's what I talk a little bit, a little bit about on, on, on X. So it's, uh, it's, uh, it is definitely contrarian, but it's not just contrarian for contrarian's sake.

   5. LRLenny Rachitsky42:45

      Mm.

   6. QYQasar Younis42:45

      It plays a little bit of our, of our own psychology. Uh, and then I would say just to, just to finish that thought there is, you know, I grew up... You know, I'm, I'm an immigrant. Uh, I, uh, uh, uh, I came to the US, uh, from Pakistan when I was a kid. Have a little bit of a weird name, and, uh, you feel like, you know anybody-- I grew up in, in, in Detroit, in Warren, Michigan, specifically for all those at, at home. And, uh, when you feel that you're a little bit on the edge of society or you're not maybe in the mainstream, and this is, you know, resonates with some people, that's not as re-- as resonate with everybody, you feel very skeptical of the mainstream because you're just on the outside for so long. And I think you can trace a bunch of founders' psychology to this feeling of being an outcast, actually. And so then you find yourself in a situation where you're like the YC-- you know, CEO, COO of YC, and the narrative of I'm an outsider is [laughs] like, like I don't know if there's anything more inside than being, you know, the YC COO, right? So I think, uh, that reconciliation, I think, over the, over my career also has, has, has had to happen, which is like maybe that's just kind of a weird, weird kind of thing. And so when I talk to, you know, Marc Andreessen, who, who's, who really pushed me to go, go online or Elad or whoever it is, uh, their view is leave your baggage and your trauma [laughs] you know, in the background, and really let's, let's think more pragmatically. And the pragmatic thing here is whether I like to do these types of things or not, fundamentally, it helps get the message out. And the message can be something very small and myopic, like what's happening in physical AI and machines become intelligent or much larger, which is what's, what's happening in society through this, you know, fundamental change that we're going through. I, I, I've had the rare privilege or the, uh, you know, experience of seeing the full economic spectrum. You know, I've, I've really seen the, the extreme ends of both sides and, and truly, I, I really mean that. And, uh, so somebody like Mark, uh, who's close to our, our, our, our company says, "Well, that's a... Those are some ideas that are worth getting out beyond just, you know, you're there promoting whatever some, you know, your company or something like that." And, and that I actually... I-- That I can get behind, which is like the debate and discussion about ideas and what's happening to our society because of these technical changes and, um, and so, you know, here I am. [laughs]

10. 45:08 – 50:40

    Why successful companies almost always show early signs of traction

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky45:08

       Amazing. Okay. So there's a few threads I wanna follow there. One is you were, as you said, COO at Y Combinator. You saw a lot of startups up close. You ha- you-- This is your third startup on your own. Something that I hear you talk about is that successful companies almost always show traction very early. A lot of founders here are like, "No, just keep trying, fighting, and may- maybe we'll be the next Figma, Notion four years in. We'll figure it out." What's your experience there, and what's your advice to founders who aren't seeing traction early?

    2. QYQasar Younis45:38

       Uh, uh, nuances. I mean, if I was starting another company, I'd call it Nuance, uh, right? [laughs] So, uh, the, the, the, uh, I think, uh, what you're saying is correct. I've-- I, I continue to believe that. I think good companies tend to be, tend to have traction fairly early and then just sustain it for a decade plus. To the founders that's toiling, let's say if you're listening and you're about two years into your company and, and you're maybe having a tough time building, getting money and building that first product that co- consumers or, or businesses really love, either through attention or dollars, two years is a very, is the difficult time. Uh, uh, the heuristic that I would use is if I'm not g- if the information I'm getting from the market is not informing me on a more and more specific path, I would consider resetting. And what I mean by reset is oftentimes, and this is wearing my YC hat, seeing, you know, hundreds and, and, and thousands of companies, is oftentimes it's like the co-founding, like literally the foundation upon which the house is built is not correct. And it's like imagine you built this house, and every time you put a cup of water and it slides off the table and it falls on the ground, and you're, you keep adjusting the table. It's like maybe the foundation is actually wrong. The whole house is off-kilter. And the foundation might not only be your co-founders, it could be the market that you're in, it could be the phase of life that you're in, and the amount of effort that you're willing to put into that thing in order to make it successful. So there's a bunch of reasons that a, a company can fail, uh, and you have to be able to somehow say, "I don't know what is the reason. I'm just gonna have to hard reset here." One thing I would tell founders, and I tell a lo- uh, Applied is creating a, a founder class in itself. People who've worked at Applied Intuition are now starting their own companies. Uh, you know, we have a thousand-plus engineers, and over time, they, they're, they're, they're starting their own, uh, firms. And I say to all of them is just imagine the first time you're gonna do a startup for the first three year, it's a zero. Just rid yourself of the expectation that it's gonna be successful and that you're really... You're, you're a craftsperson. If we were make-- If we were-- If this was a woodworking podcast and you said, you know, the first, uh, table that you built was, you know, w- was wobbly, you wouldn't say, "Well, go work at Crate & Barrel." You'd say, "Oh, that's the first table. We're gonna, we're gonna keep at it." A- a- being a founder is its own muscle.And you wanna exercise that muscle. But I think a lot of founders, especially early in their founding career, put such an incredible pressure on themselves to make it great out of the gate that they actually miss the thing that you're getting in that first round, which is learning and building that muscle in the second and third time. And I, I think it's not random that my third company is the most successful company. I think, I think that's-- I think in that you see that more often than not. There are funds which are almost exclusively focused on multi-time founders, right? For, for, for this reason.

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky48:26

       What I love about that advice is often the best ideas come from when you're-- you have low expectations, you're just playing around, you're just tinkering, you're not like, "I'm gonna build the next great," I don't know, uh, Google. Uh, it's just you having fun. And that, and that's like how I found this world that I'm in right now, this path, and OpenClaw is a good example of that.

    4. QYQasar Younis48:46

       I think what's still-- why that advice is so difficult is if you hear this and you're like, you know, you're in, you're in the, you're in the proverbial war, you're like, "What the hell are these people talking about having fun?" [laughs] It's like this, this is hard. And so you have to like hold these contra-- like contrasting kind of, or conflicting views in your head, which is like, it's deeply very, very important and you should give it your all, and it's also not that important. And, uh, that's a really hard thing to reconcile and keep, keep in balance.

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky49:16

       And the way that you approached this company where you stayed quiet, like that I think helps a lot, where you're not-

    6. QYQasar Younis49:21

       Absolutely.

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky49:22

       Yeah.

    8. QYQasar Younis49:22

       It's-- That, like, uh, y- uh, you know, even like, uh, uh, at YC of when I became, uh, COO, I, I told Sam, uh, Sam Altman was the president, and I told Sam, um, "Let's not announce this for like a year," because, you know, if the partners don't want me to be COO, it's not a successful thing. I, you know, I don't have the pressure of the public, of public scrutiny that, you know, why were you COO only for six months or something like that. And I think you have to be very honest with yourself as a founder and as a human being that those things matter. What people think about you matter and it impacts yourself and be- having the spotlight on you, you know, the, the-- I always say it's very easy to pivot before you raise money and before you have employees. No, nobody cares. The moment you raise money and, uh, more importantly, the moment you hire employees, employees join a very specific mission, and you go and you, you walk into the office and there's ten of them and you say, "Guys, turns out this isn't wrong. We're going on a different mission," imagine if this was war. It's like, "What the hell? We just-- We're attacking that hill, and now we just say that hill's not important. Like, how do you know the next hill is important?" And you as a lead, you lose a lot of credibility. But it's not only for the superficialness of being a credible leader. It's a practical nature of when you're very, very public, they become-- the, the startup becomes your identity. And then suddenly you're, you're having to reconcile that actually that thing

11. 50:40 – 56:00

    Applied Intuition’s core values

    1. QYQasar Younis50:40

       is not correct. So it's, it is e-- One of our, our, our, our, our... We have these core values in the company. And, and, and early in the company, you used to have this line which says, "Our best work is done alone and quietly." And I, I deeply believe that. And, and so founders, I would, I would think of it that way. Um, but it's for pragmatic reasons. It's not like some just because it's cool to be under the radar. It's, it's, it's just allows you to maybe work in a bit more peace.

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky51:09

       I love these core values you've shared so far. This la-- the last one, uh, the best work is done alone quietly. I'm so on board with that. Uh, radical pragmatism is the other one you shared earlier. Are there, are there a couple more there? These are, these are gems.

    3. QYQasar Younis51:20

       Yeah. We-- Those, those are like I would say the, the, the meta values. We, we have very specific, uh, uh, let's say, operating principles, and this is, this is real, as tactical as advice I can give to founders. So we c- so come up with your values when you're getting a little bit of traction. And the reason I say that is early enough where you... And the way you come up with the values is not like, "What values should we have, like, as philosophers?" No, no. You should figure out, "Why are we being successful?" Like, literally write down the five to ten things that are the reasons you are being successful, and those become your values, and you kind of re... And so we did that, and so our first one was, you know, speed above everything. Uh, and it was, like, us being fast. The second one is like, you know, uh, never disappoint the customer. Technical mastery, high output matters. Like, all the way down to, like, you know, ones that are not obvious, like laugh a lot. That's been our core value from at the beginning of the company's history. And it's like when you're working on intense things, if you don't have the ability to keep grounded, have perspective, laughter and humor also is a way to give subtle feedback and a slightly different taste than this sucks. You can say, "It's not the best." And, and that is slightly... And so you're, you're really creating the framework in which people are learning how to behave with each other within the company. And so today the values really serve us as almost like, uh, they're like guiding principles. And so I, you know, we do new team meetings that every week Peter and I, we meet all the, all the new team members, and we're almost always just talking about the values in, in some, some level of detail and depth. Yeah. Uh, a- another value, uh, half the work is follow-up. Like, just taking notes and following up. That is the business. It's not more complex than that.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky52:59

       Laugh a lot is my new favorite company value. Uh. [laughs]

    5. QYQasar Younis53:03

       [laughs] Yeah.

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky53:03

       Sounds like a wonderful place to work. And then on the, on the last piece there, there's this book that just came out by Stripe Press about maintenance and how valuable and underappreciated the maintenance part of work is.

    7. QYQasar Younis53:13

       Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I think, like, if there, if there's a takeaway that you get from, let's say, a bit of my philosophy on, on, uh, where we, you know, we started the conversation around, like, why f-p- you know, b-being promotional has all these negative connotations in it, but so I'm, uh, I'm careful using that word, but why not be promotional? It's because there's costs to everything. And so if you can focus on the craft and making the product really, really good and really listening to your customers, you have a much higher likelihood of success. And, uh, and then you can, you can always then go and, and, and scale that. A part of that is the thing that you're talking about.Maintenance or another version of in, in-- You know, like my, my roots are in automotive engineering, and automotive engineering is actually a exercise in quality. Uh, that's, that's really what it's-- You're, you're building these very complex machines at scale. You know, people talk about rockets being really, really complex. You only gotta send up a rocket even at the highest capa-- like once every couple of days. You're making a car every thirty seconds, and you have to make it extremely cheap, and it's globally competitive. So th-th-you really get into the nuance and minutiae of how a factory runs. And a factory is about safety and maintenance. It is not, there's not a lot of complex things. It's just, you know, it's like when you, when you break down what is being operationally, uh, you know, strong. Operationally strong is keeping an eye on a handful of things and making sure you're doing them really, really good. And I, I'm, I'm one of those believers that, you know, uh, there, there's this adage is, a, "A man who cannot command his, himself is not fit to command others." Um, and it's like that maintenance aspect is a part of that, right? It's like well, if you maintain yourself and your own work, you maintain the, your team, you maintain the company, the products are almost... They, they come out of all of that, that, that, that system. And I think a lot of founders don't think about their company as a system or almost as a machine. But I, I, I would implore you to do that because then you really focus on the craft of the machine and building the machine and making it more hygienic, uh, and, and, and, and, and making it more well-tuned. Just like, you know, you'll, you'll meet people who really love cars, and they, they really obsess about the maintenance of cars. You know, like, like they will, they will detail like underneath the driver's seat. As somebody who details my own cars, like nobody's gonna look at that, but it's under that same ethos of, of really caring a lot about the craft and being and, and being really-- And frankly, since you have a limited amount of time, it's hard to really care about X and also making your, making sure your company's hygienic. And, and there's different reasons at different points of your company that you should do different things, but that's kind of a little bit of the ethos.

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky55:56

       I love how I keep coming back to just staying quiet, working, just working on the thing and

12. 56:00 – 58:50

    Why the company cleans its own office—and never spent a dollar of raised capital

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky56:00

       not talking about it. Your point, last point there makes me think of that, um, the score takes care of itself, uh, classic.

    2. QYQasar Younis56:07

       Yeah. Yeah. So Joe Montana is actually one of our investors. In, in our Series D post, we, the post was, "The valuation takes care of itself."

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky56:13

       Mm.

    4. QYQasar Younis56:13

       Like very much we fall into that category.

    5. LRLenny Rachitsky56:16

       Right.

    6. QYQasar Younis56:16

       Um, and it's like, it's like, you know, sometimes people will come to our office, and, uh, they'll say, "Oh, like, it's like such a clean office. You guys must have like this giant cleaning staff." And it's like, actually, we clean our office. Uh, the-- just like in Japanese school, as I mentioned, I lived in Japan. Like the students clean their, clean their, uh, own schools. We have a cleaning zen every week, and everyone cleans the area around them. And I think it's important that, like there's something about this ethos of like, uh, also like not getting so wrapped up in your own narrative of like, "I'm a Stanford software engineer, and I do AI." It's like, clean up your desk [laughs] .

    7. LRLenny Rachitsky56:56

       [laughs]

    8. QYQasar Younis56:56

       So there's like some like basic things like that. Uh, and I don't know what that larger philosophy is, uh, but it is a philosophy that we, we, we kinda drive towards. And I think like, you know, our claim to fame, which is kind of a crazy, you know, reality, is we've never spent any money we've ever raised, you know, in the history of the company, which is kind of... It almost sounds like it's made up. The company's almost ten years old, you know, a thousand engineers plus. And so we're a functioning business without using capital that we've raised, and I think it's somehow connected to us cleaning the office. I don't [laughs] I don't know how, but it's like-

    9. LRLenny Rachitsky57:30

       But it's saving all these cleaning costs. It all makes sense now.

    10. QYQasar Younis57:32

        Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. We still have people cle- you know, go clean, but like we also are, uh, like our employees also are aware of their surroundings. And I think there's a direct line between like be quiet and alone and clean your desk and well-written software. And I don't know what that thing is, but it's all falls in the same arc.

    11. LRLenny Rachitsky57:52

        I know you also have a no shoe policy for that same reason, to keep things clean.

    12. QYQasar Younis57:55

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it also influenced by Japan. I think the, uh, the, you know, I, I w-w-worked there, and we, we had a similar office setup. The other, the other, other way to think about this maybe as, again, I'm just trying to impart everything I've known to founders because I feel like that's my, you know, that, that's who, that's who I'm... That, that information is so limited, and everyone's kind of trying to make it up, frankly speaking.

    13. LRLenny Rachitsky58:14

        This is the alpha.

    14. QYQasar Younis58:15

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Is I would implore you as a founder to really try to take the best of Japan and the best of Germany, the best of China, the best of Detroit, the best of Silicon Valley, and, and, you know, I think sometimes people take that Steve Jobs line, and they really like, you know, deform it where they say, like, "Great artists steal." What he's really talking about is like the less, the less magnanimous version of that is, uh, be humble and learn from everything around you and as a leader and be, be

13. 58:50 – 1:06:14

    Quasar’s reading philosophy

    1. QYQasar Younis58:50

       well-rounded. Uh, I think like reading is should be... You know, I, I, I-- There's a Charlie Munger line where he says, "I've never met anybody, uh, very, very successful who doesn't read all the time," and I like very much fall into that category as well. Um, and so if you like unpack why that is, like why does reading a physical book make you a better founder? Like just like ask that question in the most direct way is I'm not reading, you know, if you're-- Especially my, my ethos of reading is read old books. Don't read anything new. Read, read old books because time has filtered out a lot of the noise, so you get a lot of signal. And in your life, you, you're gonna... A thousand books maybe you'll read. Um, like in the best case scenario, you're gonna read probably fifty to a hundred books, which is kinda crazy for the average person. So you're just not gonna read many, so don't read low quality content. You read-- There are, there are true pillars of, of kind of, of human, uh, ideas out there. You consume those ideas, and then it's up to you to interpret how those ideas then reflect upon the business that you're leading or the technology that you're developing. I absolutely believe reading, uh, a, a, a book like Malcolm X's autobiographyWill make you you a better founder. And it's not-- And again, it's like the whole cleaning zen all the way to clean code. It's not directly one-to-one related. I think we always want these very simple if-then statements. Uh, but I think being a well-rounded founder where you understand society around you and history around you, that somehow makes you build a better product. [laughs] And I don't know how, uh, uh, how or why, but I think it's absolutely is true. I, I, I do see a, a connection there. And then people like Charlie Munger, who are not an AI founder, obviously also believe that, and I, I think so there's some, some pattern there.

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky1:00:37

       Like, it's interesting this is the same... It's a metaphor for LLMs. You feed all this data, somehow they become almost conscious. How does that happen? [laughs] No one, no one fully knows. Um, it's so interesting how similar you are to Marc Andreessen and your way of thinking and the way you consume content. Like, there's a-

    3. QYQasar Younis1:00:52

       We're both bald.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky1:00:52

       [laughs] There's a thread here of just here's how... here's, here's important ingredients to being really successful.

    5. QYQasar Younis1:00:59

       Yeah. I mean, Marc, I mean, uh, you know, we're, we're fortunate enough to choose, uh, you know, our investors and, and that's a true privilege. I didn't have that in my first company. We spent years, we didn't raise a dollar. [laughs] So I don't-- I, I certainly appreciate it. But, uh, you know, uh, if I've ever had like a, a mentor, uh, you know, Marc would fall into that category. And I've said, you know, before Applied and we, we debated and talked a lot, and, uh, I think Marc, uh, is also like that, right? He really consumes content actually outside of this little industry that we're in. And, uh, and then I think it makes him actually a better investor.

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky1:01:34

       Yeah. Your, uh-- We'll point people to your website. You have a list of the books that you recommend and love, and it's very long and very not what you often see. Uh, I can't help but just ask, are there a few books that have most influenced your thinking, most influenced your life?

    7. QYQasar Younis1:01:46

       Yeah. That list is like I've thoughtful- been thoughtful about, about that. And it-- Uh, the reason I, I, I use books like, uh, hi- the, you know, The Autobiography of Malcolm X as an example is I know that's not on the top of the list. Everyone's gonna... You know, if I say High Output Management-

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:00

       Yeah. That's right

    9. QYQasar Younis1:02:00

       ... classic Andy Grove.

    10. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:02

        That's right.

    11. QYQasar Younis1:02:02

        You know, you guys know that.

    12. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:03

        Yeah.

    13. QYQasar Younis1:02:03

        So it's partly is-

    14. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:04

        Number one most mentioned book here.

    15. QYQasar Younis1:02:05

        Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like partly the theatrics of also entertaining you, but also giving you new information as a, as a, as a listener. Um, I think like a good w- a lot-- I'm-- The books I'm currently reading is, and this is kind of a random-

    16. LRLenny Rachitsky1:02:18

        Yeah

    17. QYQasar Younis1:02:18

        ... you know, slot of books. Like, I'm reading the, the vibe coding book that came out that where our whole company's re-reading that, which is a new book, and it kinda goes against my grain of my heuristic. Um, but, uh, The Emperor of All Maladies, the, the cancer book, uh, fantastic book. I'm almost done with it. Like, I think it changes the way I think. Like you, you, you read that, and it changes the way... And I think that's the ultimate test when a piece of material changes your existing framing on life. This is, this is good. In the LLM use ca- This, this is somehow related in the sense of diverse data makes your understanding of the world more rich and nuanced, and therefore it's better. Uh, but yeah, so like I'm always in-inspired to give like more wacky kind of examples rather than, than the, uh, the obvious ones. But, uh, the obvious ones that if I really wasn't, wasn't, uh, you know, wasn't being theatrical, I think Sam Walton's book, Made in America, is a unbelievable book. It's very, very good. He wrote it on his deathbed. Uh, the, you know, My American Journey is also very good, Colin Powell's book. It's not, it's not on my website, but it's, it's, it's really good. You know, I, I'm a, I'm, I'm somebody who tries to connect some of these dots from, like, us being, you know, cave people to now, like, living in, you know, you know, uh, Silicon Valley, working as a venture-backed AI company founder. Uh, and so Guns, uh, b- uh, books like Guns, Germs, and Steel really are top of that list. A fantastic, fantastic book. Or Collapse, also same author. Um, so yeah. But my, my, my point to, to, to founders is read the stuff. You can still go to physical bookstores. Read the stuff that is both old and well-regarded and you know nothing about. I often, when I'm trying to find the next book to read-- Like, I remember, uh, the way I picked up SPQR, which is the book on, on Roman history, was like, I was like, "I don't actually know a lot about Roman history. I know the high-level stuff." So, like, think about all the ideas in the universe, from philosophy to history to, you know, Jainism to the rise of, uh, you know, Japan as a, uh, as a feudal state. Like, areas you don't really know, and then just find the best book in that space. And I think you, you just start filling in the blanks. And so often I, I, I-- that's kinda like the way that I grok the ecosystem is, like, what don't I know anything about, and let me go find the best piece of material in, in, in that. And yeah. And does it work well.

    18. LRLenny Rachitsky1:04:46

        I like that. Uh, so Marc's, Marc's philosophy is this barbell strategy of only today news, like X, and ten-years-ago books. I love that you're like j- no, ac- just like a upside-down T almost. [laughs] Just only-

    19. QYQasar Younis1:04:56

        Yeah, yeah. I mean, you, you know, Marc was a heavy influence in me getting on X. So, uh-

    20. LRLenny Rachitsky1:05:01

        All right. So not at the beginning

    21. QYQasar Younis1:05:02

        ... so, you know, he's, he's, he's, he's propagated that, that, that view. And I, I-- Uh, the, uh, the thing that I really do agree with him in is on as our company becomes a larger, more influential and impactful company to society, it is my responsibility as a co-founder of the company and the CEO of the company to at least propagate my ideas to our first AI founder community and then larger, the technology leadership, and then the, the world w-large. And so that's, that, that's part of it. I think in that way, Marc is-- Marc has really taken it... You know, you, you think about VCs. Not long ago, you would never even know who their names are.

    22. LRLenny Rachitsky1:05:42

        Yeah.

    23. QYQasar Younis1:05:43

        I mean, they were like this ano- They were like, you know, they're like PE guys or, or, or, or, you know, hedge fund managers. You can't even think of names. They're, they're like, they're just blobs of ominous-sounding, [laughs] you know, Obsidian Corporation or something like that. And it's only a16z and a couple of other folks, John Doerr, uh, who really kind of created the, "Hey, I'm gonna be the individual investor, and I'm gonna propagate a certain set of ideas," and that's gonna, uh, create gravity within Silicon Valley. It's gonna influence founders to then make certain types of companies, and then of course they

14. 1:06:14 – 1:12:53

    How to operationalize listening to naysayers

    1. QYQasar Younis1:06:14

       invest in those.

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky1:06:15

       On this thread about reading tooFind almost areas you disagree and, and don't, you know, haven't thought about. I know one of your approaches to management and one that may be of value is to encourage your leaders to listen to naysayers, to not create this positive reinforcement cycle. Talk about why that's so important, how you operationalize that.

    3. QYQasar Younis1:06:35

       So imagine, you know, I'm not the, the, the founder of the company, and Peter's not the co-founder of the-- it's just, just a generic company. The ideal that you-- the ideal situation with a generic company is one that you can put in lots of different com-competing ideas. The culture is one where you will shake those ideas out. There's not an emotion in it. Whoever brings the idea, the best, best idea wins. So why can't companies do that? Frankly speaking, a lot of times it's the founders, and the founders are told it, you know, by, you know, popular media and the way that human beings experience life and our tribal kind of outlook, that you have to have this hard view, and everyone has to-- if they're not following you, then maybe you're a weak leader or something like that. And I think we just don't believe that. We don't just believe in that philosophy. And I think we, we, we believe-- the-- what may be a more tactical way of saying that is we take inputs of the environment, our customers specifically, our employees, our competitors, of our investors, and we-- of what's happening in society writ large, and that impacts our strategy. And, uh, and I think it's one of the reasons we've been very, very successful. We're not, we're not so arrogant to think that we just have the answers because we had the ambition to start a company, and I think that permeates into a very specific culture. And I think the culture that we built is one-- it's also not being contrarian for contrarian's sake, right? I, I-- like if you-- one, one view I do have is emotions are generally not helpful in making rational decisions. They're almost like the opposite of it. And sometimes passion and, a, you know, leadership are supposed to be about, you know, they're supposed to be like, again, magnanimous or, or, or emotional. And I-- we just don't believe that. We-- and, and that's, I think, a bit more of our kind of Midwest, you know, um, you know, roots showing for Peter and I and, and, and... And so I think it's not that we say, "Hey, disagree with everything in the room." What we specifically say is, "Speak up. Speak up. Everyone has to speak up," because that one person with their one experience, because they worked at, you know, Zoox or Waymo or wherever, Tesla, or they worked at a Chinese company, whatever it is, that one idea they have in their head when the debate is happening about what we should do in, um, you know, uh, in space, like literally the space of space, uh, and, uh, and something maybe we don't know much about, that one person's one idea, h-- they have to feel comfortable sharing it, even if they're the most junior person or they feel that they didn't get their way in the last debate or they, they feel, you know, whatever, whatever anxiety that they might have. They have to share that opinion that, "Guys, this is actually the right idea," or, "This is the wrong idea." And if you can create that environment where the best idea wins-- You know, Gandhi has this line: "Truth is what stands the test of time." We're trying, you know-- And I think there's become a little bit of a meme in the Bay Area, like truth-seeking, you know, as a culture. But it kinda is like that. We're trying to find the best idea. Maybe truth is the wrong word, and maybe it's the best idea. Find the best idea, and then let's go full bore at, against the best idea. Let's maybe use a counterfactual. Why do companies fail when they s- have great talent, and they have, you know, seemingly all the same components that a, that, uh, an Applied Intuition have? It's because maybe the best ideas are not being surfaced, and certainly maybe they're not actually being adopted. Or more often than not, when I think about companies that have been very successful is they have momentum going in a specific direction, and that momentum over... That, that, that, that, that wa- that wall of sound overwhelms any new sound that's emerging, which is, "Hey, the market's changing. The market's changing." You just can't even hear that because there's all this momentum going in a particular direction. A, a, a good example, I had front row seats for this when I worked at Google, uh, it was the era where Facebook was emerging. And here was Google. And people don't remember Google in the late double O's and early teens. Google wasn't just a company. It was the apex predator of Silicon Valley. Apple was just, you know... The MacBook Air had just come out. Steve Jobs was-- had to-- had his-- getting in the right direction, but nothing like Apple is today. Amazon AWS was still a young thing. NVIDIA was teetering off of bankruptcy. Uh, I mean, all these giant companies that you think of. Microsoft was run by Ballmer. You know, Twitter was a small thing. And then you-- So it wasn't-- It was-- But Google was this already larger than life, number one company. Everybody wanted to work at Google. And there was-- there, there were not many companies with that stature. And then in the periphery, this little company, Facebook, starts emerging. And Google, who has the best engineers on the planet, is making a billion in cash flow a month, tries to fight this little company that-- And, and I remember Facebook at that time maybe had a thousand people, and Google was like, you know, fifteen x, twenty x the size with a lot of cash flow. And why couldn't Google fight Facebook? It's because Google is not Facebook. It's like that Confucian saying, like, "How does a gorilla learn how to fly? By not being a gorilla." The way that Google would have won the social media war is by being a social media company. It's, it's just fundamentally not. And so the large-- This happens in companies all the time, which is you're just going in one direction with momentum, consciously or unconsciously, because that's where all the employees are, that's what the culture is, that's what the-- what they work on, and then something changes in the market, and you just can't even, e-even, even move there. And I think that also can happen uncarr-- or surprisingly at really small companies. So where founders have a view, and it's like that view is the view it's gonna be. And actually, that can be just ten degrees off from what is the, was the correct path, and the whole company's kind of led astray. So they were in the right market. They might have even been solving the right problem, but they were just a little off. And so we're so scared of failing and so scared of losingThat I will humble myself and listen to other people, and they say, "Hey, we're five degrees off, off course here." And it's like, "Okay. L-let's, let's, let's, let's maybe fix the course." And then once that becomes your culture, then it's really hard to lose because everybody's not about fulfilling a preset path. They're just about finding the r- you know, to how to win.

15. 1:12:53 – 1:14:55

    The importance of decisiveness

    1. LRLenny Rachitsky1:12:53

       S- this is exactly what I wanted to ask about. Everyone listening to this either is like, "Oh yeah, we're very open-minded. We're, we're absolutely gonna listen to everyone's opinions and decide rationally the right path," uh, in practice-

    2. QYQasar Younis1:13:05

       Almost never happens.

    3. LRLenny Rachitsky1:13:06

       Right. Uh, or they're just like, uh, "We're just-- we know we're not good at this. We're just, like, too nice to each other." Um, how do you, how do you do this at a company that isn't good at this? Is it like, does it have to be the CEO top-down in your experience? Does it have to be part of the culture? How do you operationalize at a company that's not like you?

    4. QYQasar Younis1:13:24

       You know, the, the middle way is, is typically the right way. And, and it's, it's, it's hard to find the middle way because these are conflicting ideas. These are the, the, the, the, the guardrails or the flagpo- the p-posts you just set. One side is like, we're just gonna go, and the other side is we're too, you know, maybe like almost like unsure. And you have to somehow... Once you do make the-- have that debate, you have to then confidently walk down that path. And again, this is conflicting. I just said, be humble enough to listen to what's going on, but then once that decision is made, the decisive... Our-- in our values, that first value, uh, uh, you know, s-the speed value, which is specifically the wording is, uh, move fast, move safe. That's specifically the wording. We assess our managers on adherence to th-those values. Literally, we compensate and promote against those values, so they're not just like abstract values. So the behavior we're actually looking at under speed is decisiveness. So we're setting up a system that is looking at, you know, these conflicting ki-kind of things. One is like, be open, and the other one's make decisions quickly. And, and you have to hold a, ho-hold those intention. This is why you as the co-founder or founder of the company get paid the big bucks. You gotta do that. You gotta... You have to know when to, when to bluff and when to hold them and, uh, you know, uh, or when to fold them, as a, as they say. So you, you, you, you, you, at some point, and that point comes sometimes faster than you think, you will not get any more information, and you have to make a decision. So you're, you're, you're, you're walking this

16. 1:14:55 – 1:19:02

    Removing emotions from decisions

    1. QYQasar Younis1:14:55

       very, very thin line.

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky1:14:56

       Your point about emotions was extremely interesting, and I wanna make sure people don't take away the wrong takeaway here. Um, so what I actually found really helpful, which I think is aligned with what you're suggesting, is taking emotions out of it. The way I've used this in my work is, uh, when you have to make a d-- hard decision, pretend nobody's feelings would be hurt and emotions are not involved. What would you do if nobody cared, if they're like, "Totally, great." So what would you do, do in that world? And then that tells you, okay, that's actually the right thing to do. And then it's, okay, how do I help people feel okay about this? How do I deal with the downsides of this path?

    3. QYQasar Younis1:15:31

       Yeah, I think, I think th-that's the, that's the obvious version of it. I think maybe another version of thinking is it's an emotion is let's take another r- you as the leader or as the engineer, uh, who is getting, uh, direction, you already have some preset view that this is my idea. That's an emotional, you know, that's an emotional construct, and it's, it's, it's around ownership and feeling of ownership. So yeah, I'm-- I, I really fall into that category of like the more... So like even m-maybe most fundamentally, like what is an emotion? An emotion is like these set of reactions that have been-- that a framework that's been imparted in your brain through life experiences. And those life experiences might not actually make you optimi- have not been optimized for you to make a decision in a product review. And so the, the, the more you can pull that away, w-a good heuristic would be the same decision being made by multiple people in the company gets the same result. So you're removing a little bit of that almost like filter. You can almost think of that emotion as like a filter. So I like to have the raw image come through, the raw decision come through, so we can consistently classify it again and again. Not to get too abstract, but I, I don't know if that makes sense.

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky1:16:49

       Yeah, it makes sense. And, uh, I have one last question, but, uh, there's an interesting trend I've noticed with a-- people talking about AGI. The missing s-piece I've been hearing more and more is just emotions are what creates consciousness potentially. Michael Pollan has a new book out about consciousness, and his take is it's not just more intelligence, it's actually emotions that led to the consciousness.

    5. QYQasar Younis1:17:10

       I think it's, it's, it's, uh, uh, under-- let's say, um, undermining how complex human thought is to think that it's just the, let's say, the, you know, inputs and outputs of... Or let's say association, for the lack of a better word, of ideas, facts, words, letters. It's not just as associations and, uh, and creativity is k-kind of a little, a little bit, you know, of that as well. Like, like what the old, the old saying of like technical mastery is mastering the complex, and I think computers do that really well, and creativity is mastering the simple. I'm sure I'm gonna eat my words on this as like the best artist in like three years will be [laughs] --

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky1:17:53

       Oh, that's beautiful. That's beautiful.

    7. QYQasar Younis1:17:54

       Will be, will be. Yeah, yeah. And so I think, uh, and this again goes back to my philosophy of like, uh, consume broad, you know, broad inputs, but then try to remove that filter, see things as honestly as they possibly can, create a culture in the company that is also similar and doesn't put any weight on who the idea came from or where it came from. But then ultimately, as a leader, you decide, and by the way, you gotta be right.

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky1:18:23

       Mm.

    9. QYQasar Younis1:18:23

       Like that's the other thing I think a lot of founders, uh, just we're not-- we're we don't emphasize enough. Founders love to take credit for, for things. Uh, it's just human nature. Everybody does. But they-- the, the reality is-You have to be right. It's not enough to just start a company. It's not enough to, you know, have this vision of the world. You have to be right. And the, the evidence is, is the company a sustainable standalone business? 'Cause we're talking specifically about, you know, venture-backed AI companies in Silicon Valley. All of my-- But I should have said this at the beginning. All of my, you know, [chuckles] all of my advice is specifically for that narrow group, which is, which is founders of, of, of AI venture-backed companies in the Bay

17. 1:19:02 – 1:24:23

    Why most Silicon Valley CEOs don’t have great taste—and how to develop it

    1. QYQasar Younis1:19:02

       Area.

    2. LRLenny Rachitsky1:19:03

       Speaking of that, last question. I've been wanting to get to this because it's an interesting, spicy take that you have as a last question. I know you have to run after this. You have this view that a lot of CEOs in Silicon Valley don't actually have great taste. I'm excited to hear what your experience there and just what, what you think.

    3. QYQasar Younis1:19:18

       Yeah. I, I, I also wanna be careful to imply that I do. [laughs]

    4. LRLenny Rachitsky1:19:21

       [laughs] Okay. Okay.

    5. QYQasar Younis1:19:22

       I fall into that, into that group. Uh, I think, uh, you know, the-- it is true because a lot of ti-- the-- couple of reasons. Both, both taste in the most, let's say, um, you know, artistic sense and in the most speci- like, uh, running a company and, like, what should be the policy, like HR policy for, you know, point X. Uh, a lot of that is I think they're just not exposed to a lot of interesting good things. And, and that's been a theme in this whole conversation is, like, just, just get more and more exposure. I-- It's very unfortunate when I meet somebody who... And I'm not part- thinking of anyone in particular, so if this is you and you're one of my friends, I apologize. I don't-- [chuckles] I'm not talking about you. But it's like, you know, you grow up in Cupertino, you go to Berkeley, and you start-- and the first thing you do when you come out of school is you start a company, and then that's, that's all you do, you know, for twenty-- like, you've never even been an employee. And why I think that's so important, like, I spent over a decade working in large organizations and, like, truly large, like more, more than a hundred thousand employ- like a General Motors or like a Bosch. Uh, and when you're in the, you know, the, you know, the back alley of that organization, the bowels of those organizations, you learn how bad it is to be an employee. Like, the bureaucracy above you, leadership doesn't know what's going on, the industry, you know, your antiquated tools, all this stuff. Why that's so important to e-experience as an individual is then when you become a leader, you're making policies and you're creating culture, and you have to keep that in mind. And a bunch of founders, we just never had the, frankly, the fortune of being at the bottom of the totem pole. And, uh, and that's just one version of how to, you know, d- that, that doesn't obviously seem like, you know, uh, read, read, you know, uh, consume the photos of, uh, Brassard or, you know, Picasso or whoever it might be, um, but it's something similar. There's something similar about you, you can sometimes meet founders, and may, maybe a good heuristic here is, like, there's some founders that would be good at lots and lots of things, actually not just being a founder of an AI company in the Bay Area, and there's something about taste there. Because you're really, what you're talking about is, like, understanding humans and understanding life and then being able to discern with some judgment what is good and what's not good, because that's really what we're talking about. And, uh, and so if your, if your, if your, if your life experience is very narrow, you, you could still be good and, and you might, y-a-and, or have the ability to discern what's good and what's, what's, what's not good. But I think, like, there's something about, like, if you've backpacked for a few years around the world, I somehow believe that's gonna be a better founder. [chuckles] It's like, you know... I don't know how I can-- There's no peer-reviewed research that can [chuckles] that I can point to that, that says that. So I think you-- that's what I'm getting at. There, there is some developing of taste. Yeah.

    6. LRLenny Rachitsky1:22:14

       Well, uh, I feel like we have, uh, helped people build their taste, build, feed their, feed their model with more insights and different perspectives in this conversation. I feel like we could chat for hours, but I know you gotta run. Um-

    7. QYQasar Younis1:22:25

       Yeah, I'm not sure if, uh, there were any real takeaways other than [laughs]

    8. LRLenny Rachitsky1:22:28

       Okay, zero.

    9. QYQasar Younis1:22:29

       We really, we really went everywhere. I'm, uh, I'm sorry if you had a particular line of questions you wanted to go down.

    10. LRLenny Rachitsky1:22:34

        We went in all the perfect directions.

    11. QYQasar Younis1:22:36

        Okay, good, good, good.

    12. LRLenny Rachitsky1:22:37

        Uh, Qasar, thank you so much for doing this.

    13. QYQasar Younis1:22:39

        Thank-

    14. LRLenny Rachitsky1:22:39

        Thank you so much for being here. Um, final question, just where can folks find you online? How can listeners be useful to you?

    15. QYQasar Younis1:22:45

        Uh, that's a great question. I mean, uh, I love to hear what are books that I don't know. Um, so that's, that's always good. I've, I've, I've, uh, some of my favorite books have been just randomly kind of recommended to me, so, uh, I'd, I'll, I'll take that. Of course, um, I consume, you know, research as well, and so if there's something particularly novel that's going on, obviously all the mainstream stuff we as a company and me as an individual are gonna consume, but things that are a bit off the beaten path, we're always looking for that. Um, but yeah. Uh, and then if you, if you have a particular opinion about specifically our domain, physical AI, and how AI is gonna impact mines, farms, constr- you know, construction sites, uh, robotics, all of that stuff, I'm always interested to hear new, new opinions on that, or even old opinions maybe with a different viewpoint. So, uh, yeah, if you, if you see me, you can see me online. Of course, uh, I'm always around as well to-- I'm always, always open to that feedback.

    16. LRLenny Rachitsky1:23:42

        And you're on Twitter now. There we go.

    17. QYQasar Younis1:23:43

        Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Follow me there. So I, uh... Yeah, exactly. That, that's, that's the answer.

    18. LRLenny Rachitsky1:23:49

        That's the call to action. [laughs]

    19. QYQasar Younis1:23:50

        [laughs] Channeling my inner, inner Mark.

    20. LRLenny Rachitsky1:23:53

        There you go. Qasar, thank you so much for doing this.

    21. QYQasar Younis1:23:56

        Thank-

    22. LRLenny Rachitsky1:23:56

        Thank you for being here.

    23. QYQasar Younis1:23:57

        Yeah, thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun.

    24. LRLenny Rachitsky1:23:59

        Bye, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode.

Episode duration: 1:24:23