Camille Fournier: Why PMs lose engineers to credit hoarding

ℹ️ EPISODE INFO

Released

September 15, 2024

Duration

1h 23m

Channel

Lenny's Podcast

Watch on YouTube

▶ Open ↗

📝 EPISODE DESCRIPTION

Camille Fournier is the author of The Manager’s Path, which many consider the definitive guide for navigating one’s career path in tech. Camille was previously the CTO of Rent the Runway, VP of Technology at Goldman Sachs, Head of Platform Engineering at Two Sigma, and Global Head of Engineering and Architecture at JPMorgan Chase. She is about to release new newest book, Platform Engineering: A Guide for Technical, Product, and People Leaders. In our conversation, we discuss:

• What product managers do that annoys engineers
• Why major rewrites are a trap
• Why you should have fewer one-on-ones
• Strategies for organizing and working with platform teams
• Tips for new managers
• Advice for transitioning from individual contributor to manager
• Much more

— Brought to you by:

• DX—A platform for measuring and improving developer productivity: https://getdx.com/lenny
• CommandBar—AI-powered user assistance for modern products and impatient users: https://www.commandbar.com/lenny
• Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace: https://coda.io/lenny

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/engineering-leadership-camille-fournier Where to find Camille Fournier:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/camille-fournier-9011812/
• Website: https://skamille.medium.com/

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Camille’s background (02:17) Common annoyances between PMs and engineers (07:09) Avoiding the telephone game (08:05) Hoarding ideas and over-engineering (09:55) The importance of involving engineers in ideation (11:37) The middle-person dilemma (14:21) Rewriting systems: a big trap? (20:40) Engineering leadership lessons (36:02) Moving from IC to management (40:32) One-on-one meetings (45:10) Pushing beyond comfort zones (45:27) Building a balanced work culture (48:01) Effective time management strategies (54:15) Advice for platform team success (01:02:42) Platform team responsibilities (01:04:43) When to form a platform team (01:07:02) Thriving on a platform team (01:12:48) AI corner (01:17:03) Lightning round and final thoughts Referenced:

• Platform Engineering: A Guide for Technical, Product, and People Leaders: https://www.amazon.com/Platform-Engineering-Technical-Product-Leaders/dp/1098153642/
• The Manager’s Path: A Guide for Tech Leaders Navigating Growth and Change: https://www.amazon.com/Managers-Path-Leaders-Navigating-Growth/dp/1491973897
• 97 Things Every Engineering Manager Should Know: Collective Wisdom from the Experts: https://www.amazon.com/Things-Every-Engineering-Manager-Should/dp/1492050903
• Avoiding the Rewrite Trap: https://skamille.medium.com/avoiding-the-rewrite-trap-b1283b8dd39e
• Levelsio on X: https://x.com/levelsio
• Pieter Levels on the Lex Fridman Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtjKbXKqbg
• GraphQL: https://graphql.org/
• New Blue Sun by André 3000 on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/33Ek6daAL3oXyQIV1uoItD
• Musk’s 5 Steps to Cut Internal Bureaucracy at Tesla and SpaceX: https://icecreates.com/insight/musk-s-5-steps-to-cut-internal-bureaucracy-at-tesla-and-spacex-you-may-say-it-s-his-algorithm/
• Ian Nowland on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/inowland/
• Studio Pulls ‘Megalopolis’ Trailer Using Fake Quotes from Famed Movie Critics: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/studio-pulls-megalopolis-trailer-using-fake-quotes-from-famed-movie-critics_n_66c74046e4b0f1ca469413c7
• Claude 2: https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-2
• What Got You Here Won’t Get You There: How Successful People Become Even More Successful: https://www.amazon.com/What-Got-Here-Wont-There/dp/1401301304
• When Things Fall Apart: Heart Advice for Difficult Times: https://www.amazon.com/When-Things-Fall-Apart-Difficult/dp/1611803438
• Alien: Romulus: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt18412256/
• Whoop: https://www.whoop.com

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

🎤 SPEAKERS

• Lenny Rachitsky

  host

• Camille Fournier

  guest

🧾 EPISODE SUMMARY

In this episode of Lenny's Podcast, featuring Lenny Rachitsky and Camille Fournier, Camille Fournier: Why PMs lose engineers to credit hoarding explores engineers Reveal What They Need Most From Product Managers, Leaders Camille Fournier shares what most frustrates engineers about product managers—credit hoarding, dismissing technical details, playing communication “telephone,” and shutting engineers out of product ideation—and offers concrete fixes. She explains why full system rewrites are usually a costly trap and suggests evolutionary, staged technical change instead. The conversation then moves into engineering leadership: when to move into management, how to stay credibly technical, how to use (fewer) one-on-ones well, and how to create a high-output culture without overwork. In the latter part, she unpacks how to build and work with platform teams, emphasizing that platforms are products, need PMs, and succeed only when they measurably improve developer and business outcomes.

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