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The ultimate guide to JTBD | Bob Moesta (co-creator of the framework)

Bob Moesta is the co-creator of the Jobs To Be Done (JTBD) framework, a close collaborator of Clay Christensen, and CEO and founder of The Re-Wired Group. He has helped launch more than 3,500 new products, services, and businesses and built and sold several startups himself. He is also a fellow at the Clayton Christensen Institute and a guest lecturer at the Harvard Business School, MIT Sloan School of Entrepreneurship, and Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management. In this episode, we discuss: • What Snickers and Milky Way can teach us about JTBD • The various flavors of the JTBD framework • Best practices for implementing the framework • Advice on conducting interviews for B2B vs. B2C customers • Common mistakes people make when implementing JTBD • When not to use it — Brought to you by Sidebar—Catalyze your career with a Personal Board of Directors: https://www.sidebar.com/?utm_source=lennys&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=waitlist_launch | Merge—A single API to add hundreds of integrations into your app: https://merge.dev/sponsorships/lennys-podcast?utm_campaign=Lennys_Podcast | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments: https://www.geteppo.com/ Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-jtbd-bob-moesta Where to find Bob Moesta: • Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/bmoesta • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobmoesta/ • Website: http://www.therewiredgroup.com/ • Podcast: https://pca.st/gg6goo1n Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Bob’s background (04:04) What is the Jobs To Be Done framework (07:29) Struggling moments and demand (11:14) Reducing friction in the sales process (14:46) How Autobooks improved their buying process and 4x’ed conversion (16:52) The six phases of the buying process (18:30) The JTBD interview process (21:55) How Bob’s TBI affected his reading/writing (22:02) Why people switch companies (27:18) JTBD interviewing (30:07) Discussion guides (32:48) The danger of looking at the customer through the product (33:53) First steps in applying the JTBD framework (36:25) Signs people are ready for a change (37:43) Bob’s “layers of language” (40:15) Examples of companies with broad adoption of JTBD (43:59) The different flavors of JTBD (48:19) Bob’s work with Clay Christensen on JTBD theory (51:05) When not to use JTBD (53:40) Common misconceptions about the framework (55:55) What compelled Bob to spend so much of his life on JTBD (58:07) Takeaways (59:07) Lightning round Referenced: • Jason Fried on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-fried/ • Des Traynor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/destraynor • Southern New Hampshire University: https://degrees.snhu.edu/ • Paul LeBlanc on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-j-leblanc-6a17749/ • Demand-Side Sales 101: Stop Selling and Help Your Customers Make Progress: https://www.amazon.com/Demand-Side-Sales-101-Customers-Progress/dp/1544509987 • Autobooks: https://www.autobooks.co/ • Intercom: https://www.intercom.com/ • Zendesk: https://www.zendesk.com/ • HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com/ • The Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University: https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/ • Y Combinator: https://www.ycombinator.com/ • Michael Horn on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelbhorn/ • Ethan Bernstein on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ethanbernstein/ • Never Split the Difference: Negotiating as If Your Life Depended on It: https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-Depended/dp/0062407805 • William Edwards Deming on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming • Basecamp: https://basecamp.com/ • Sriram and Aarthi on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/hot-takes-and-techno-optimism-from-techs-top-power-couple-sriram-and-aarthi/ • Genichi Taguchi: https://www.qualitygurus.com/genichi-taguchi/ • Tony Ulwick on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonyulwick/ • The Clayton Christensen Institute on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/clayton-christensen-institute/ • Shape Up: https://basecamp.com/shapeup • The End of Average: Unlocking Our Potential by Embracing What Makes Us Different: https://www.amazon.com/End-Average-Unlocking-Potential-Embracing/dp/0062358375 • The Big Bang Theory on TBS: https://www.tbs.com/shows/the-big-bang-theory/watch-now • Oppenheimer: https://www.oppenheimermovie.com/ • Kyota massage chairs at Costco: https://www.costco.com/massage-chairs-cushions.html?brand=Kyota&refine=%7C%7CBrand_attr-Kyota • Paul Adams on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pauladams/ • Matt Hodges on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattnhodges/ Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

Bob MoestaguestLenny Rachitskyhost
Aug 23, 20231h 9mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Bob Moesta Redefines Jobs To Be Done Around Context And Change

  1. Bob Moesta, co-creator of the Jobs to Be Done (JTBD) framework, explains that JTBD is fundamentally about understanding the *context* and *desired outcome* behind why people “hire” products to make progress, not just solving generic pain points.
  2. He introduces a causal model of behavior change—pushes, pulls, anxieties, and habits—to explain when and why people actually switch from one solution to another, and how this should drive product, sales, and innovation decisions.
  3. Moesta details a qualitative, interview-driven approach to uncovering real jobs, emphasizing studying recent switchers (including churned customers), small sample sizes, and deep story-based interrogation rather than survey-driven wish lists.
  4. He also clarifies common misconceptions about JTBD, contrasts his method with other variants, and shares applications across domains—from SaaS (Intercom, Autobooks) and marketplaces (e.g., Facebook Marketplace–like products) to housing, education, and even career moves.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Jobs to Be Done is about context and outcome, not abstract pain/gain.

Moesta argues that demand is created by specific situations (context) plus desired progress (outcome). Without understanding when and why someone is in a particular situation, you misidentify competitors and design the wrong product.

Behavior change is driven by four forces—push, pull, anxiety, and habit.

People switch when the push of their current struggles and the pull of a better future (F1 + F2) outweigh the anxiety of the new and the habit of the present (F3 + F4). You can grow by increasing push/pull or by reducing anxiety/habit friction—often without adding features.

Study struggling moments, not feature requests or hypothetical desires.

Innovation starts from real “struggling moments” when people actually attempt to change. Interview only people who have already tried to make progress (recent buyers and churned users), and unpack the real story of what led them to say, “Today is the day I’m doing something different.”

Deep qualitative interviews beat large surveys for discovering real jobs.

Moesta recommends 8–12 story-based interviews per round, with no rigid discussion guide, probing for specifics (timeline, trade-offs, anxieties, social and emotional factors) and clustering stories into distinct “pathways” instead of segmenting by demographics or surface features.

Design sales and onboarding around how customers buy, not how you sell.

Map the buying timeline—first thought, passive looking, active looking, deciding, first use, ongoing use—and adapt your touchpoints (e.g., different demos for different stages) to meet people where they are, which can shorten sales cycles and dramatically improve conversion.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

People hire products; they don’t buy them. They hire them to make progress in their life.

Bob Moesta

Bitchin’ ain’t switchin’. Just because people complain doesn’t mean they’re going to do anything about it.

Bob Moesta

A kickass half is better than a half-assed whole.

Bob Moesta (referencing Jason Fried)

One of the biggest misconceptions around Jobs to Be Done is this notion that it’s pain and gain as opposed to context and outcome.

Bob Moesta

Innovation happens when people change. Most people are studying the momentum of where people are; we study what causes them to change direction.

Bob Moesta

Definition and core principles of Jobs to Be Done (context + outcome, not just pain/gain)The four forces of behavior change: push, pull, anxiety, and habitHow to conduct effective JTBD interviews and derive jobs from real customer storiesUsing struggling moments as the source of roadmaps, innovation, and sales strategyPractical case studies: Intercom, Basecamp, Autobooks, Southern New Hampshire University, housing/condosMisconceptions, variants, and misuses of JTBD (including ‘conference-room jobs’)Limits of JTBD and when other approaches or lenses are more appropriate

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