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What sets great teams apart | Lane Shackleton (CPO of Coda)

Lane Shackleton is CPO of Coda, where he’s been leading the product and design team for over eight years. Lane started his career as an Alaskan climbing guide and then as a manual reviewer of AdWords ads before becoming a product specialist at Google and later a Group PM at YouTube. He also writes a weekly newsletter with insights and rituals for PMs, product teams, and startups. In today’s conversation, we discuss: • Principles that set great PMs apart • Rituals of great product teams • The fine line between OKRs and strategy, and why it matters • “Two-way write-up” • The story of how skippable YouTube ads were born and lessons learned • How to gauge personal career growth • “Tim Ferriss Day” and its impact on Coda’s history • How Lane bootstrapped his way to CPO from the bottom of the tech ladder — Brought to you by Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments: https://www.geteppo.com/ | Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security: https://vanta.com/lenny | Ezra—The leading full-body cancer screening company: https://www.ezra.com/lenny Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/what-sets-great-teams-apart-lane-shackleton-cpo-of-coda/ Where to find Lane Shackleton: • X: https://twitter.com/lshackleton • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laneshackleton • Substack: https://lane.substack.com/ Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Lane’s background (04:03) Working as a guide in Alaska (07:32) Parallels between guiding and building software (09:12) Why Lane started studying and writing about product teams (12:49) How Lane came up with the career ladder and guiding principles (14:10) The five levels Coda’s career ladder (16:30) Principles of great product managers (21:06) The beginner’s-mind ritual at Coda (24:05) Two rituals: “cathedrals not bricks” and “proactive not reactive” (27:46) How to develop your own guiding principles (31:17) Learning from your “oh shit” moments (36:03) Rituals from great product teams: HubSpot’s FlashTags (42:15) Rituals from great product teams: Coda’s Catalyst (47:01) Implementing rituals from other companies (49:48) How to navigate changing vs. sticking with current rituals (53:02) “Tag up” and why one-on-one meetings are harmful  (55:27) Lane’s handbook on strategy and rituals (57:10) How skippable ads came about on YouTube    (1:01:46) Lane’s path to CPO (1:07:02) Advice for aspiring PMs (1:10:53) Tim Ferriss Day at Coda (1:13:24) Using two-way write-ups  (1:19:30) The fine line between OKRs and strategy, and why it matters (1:21:41) Lightning round Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Lane ShackletonguestLenny Rachitskyhost
Sep 30, 20231h 29mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Lane Shackleton Reveals Principles and Rituals Behind Exceptional Product Teams

  1. Lane Shackleton, CPO of Coda and former YouTube PM, shares the principles and operating rituals he believes set great product managers and product teams apart. He frames the core PM job as turning ambiguity into clarity, then walks through concrete principles like focusing on systems over goals, building cathedrals not bricks, learning by making, and actively seeking “oh-shit” stretch moments.
  2. Lane also details how Coda structures career ladders, compensation, and review rituals (like Catalyst, tag-ups, and two-way write-ups) to keep teams aligned, fast, and customer-centric while minimizing politics. He draws heavily on lessons from outside tech—mountain guiding, sports, storytelling, and Stoicism—and from his early career in support and ad review at Google.
  3. Throughout, he emphasizes practical, repeatable behaviors: default-on customer contact, lightweight but robust planning, clear decision-making frameworks, and deliberate calibration of feedback and involvement. The conversation becomes a playbook for anyone wanting to design better product cultures, accelerate their growth, and run more effective teams.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

The core PM job is turning ambiguity into clarity, not just shipping features.

Lane defines product work as constantly spotting ambiguous questions (role, problem, customer, solution) and systematically making them clear, then uses principles and rituals to make this a repeatable team habit.

Focus on systems, not just goals, to build durable product instincts.

Rather than sporadic OKRs like “talk to 10 customers this quarter,” great teams create default-on systems (e.g., weekly customer sessions) so learning compounds and instincts strengthen without constant willpower.

Teams need a vivid cathedral, not just a task list of bricks.

Performance and motivation improve when people see the bigger arc of their work—Lane advocates over-communicating vision through narratives, metrics, mocks, and artifacts so everyone can see their own facet of the cathedral.

You grow fastest by seeking “oh-shit” stretch moments and running toward obstacles.

Lane suggests tracking how many times in the last 6–24 months you felt underqualified or uncomfortable; if it’s been a while, you may be stagnating and should pursue harder challenges or different roles.

Learn by making, not talking—prototype and test extremes instead of debating endlessly.

The YouTube skippable ads story shows that directional experiments (e.g., huge vs tiny skip buttons) quickly resolved massive internal uncertainty that could have stalled for months in meetings.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

The core job of a product person is to turn ambiguity into clarity.

— Lane Shackleton

Instead of being obsessed with the goal, be obsessed with the system that gets you there.

— Lane Shackleton

You want your teams to feel like they’re building a cathedral, not laying bricks.

— Lane Shackleton

Moments that stretch you or make you think ‘oh shit, I shouldn’t be here’—those are the moments you should be seeking out.

— Lane Shackleton

Stop talking about it and go make something—run an experiment, build a prototype, write a doc.

— Lane Shackleton

Core principles of great product managers (systems, cathedrals, proactivity, learning by making)Coda’s approach to career ladders, levels, and compensation for product teamsTeam rituals that increase velocity and clarity (Catalyst, tag-ups, Dory, two-way write-ups)Calibrating feedback and decisions (HubSpot’s flash tags, $100 voting, brain trusts)Personal growth frameworks, including “oh-shit” moments and running toward obstaclesLessons from non-tech domains: mountain guiding, sports, storytelling, Stoicism, mindfulnessEarly career paths into product management and the value of deep customer-facing experience

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