Lenny's PodcastWhen to invest in new acquisition channels | Adam Grenier (Uber, MasterClass)
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
145 min read · 28,635 words- 0:00 – 5:34
Adam’s background
- AGAdam Grenier
One of the biggest pieces of advice I'm giving to people that are like, "How should we adjust our marketing with the economic changes?" And things like that, I was like, "Start by assuming you no longer have product-market fit." (laughs) Because you had product-market fit in a different market. It's a different market now, so you have to start over, and, and then hopefully you do, or it's pretty close to it, and you just have to adjust a couple of things, and you could be right back on track. But, like, if you just assume, like, you need to launch a new channel to fix this problem, like, you're gonna be wrong. Because, like, your entire customer base changed, not just the next 10% of customers that you're looking for. (instrumental music)
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Welcome to Lenny's Podcast. I'm Lenny, and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products. I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won experiences building and scaling today's most successful companies. Today, my guest is Adam Grenier. Adam was head of growth marketing and innovation at Uber, where he basically built their growth marketing infrastructure and the team from the ground up. Then he went on to VP of product and marketing at Lambda School, and most recently, he was VP of marketing at MasterClass. These days, Adam advises companies large and small on growth and marketing strategy. In our conversation, we cover how to decide when to try new and emerging acquisition channels like TikTok, VR, newsletter ads, and how to go about testing them out. We get into the growth CMO role, which is an emerging role that Adam has helped pioneer, and we get into some real talk about burnout and depression and mental health issues that often come with working in tech. This was a really powerful and insightful conversation, and I learned a lot from Adam, both as an operator and as a human. I can't wait for you to hear this episode. And so with that, I bring you Adam Grenier. This episode is brought to you by Whimsical. When I asked product managers and designers on Twitter what software they use most, Whimsical is always one of the most mentioned products, and the users are fanatical. Whimsical is built for collaborative thinking, combining visual, text, and data canvases into one fluid medium. Distributed teams use Whimsical for workshops, white boarding, wire frames, user flows, and even feature specs, and it includes thousands of built-in icons and a rich library of templates. See why product teams at leading companies call Whimsical a game changer. Visit whimsical.com/lenny to have my own templates added to your account when you sign up. That's whimsical.com/lenny. This episode is brought to you by Coda. Coda's an all-in-one doc that combines the best of documents, spreadsheets, and apps in one place. I actually use Coda every single day. It's my home base for organizing my newsletter writing. It's where I plan my content calendar, capture my research, and write the first drafts of each and every post. It's also where I curate my private knowledge repository for paid newsletter subscribers, and it's also how I manage the workflow for this very podcast. Over the years, I've seen Coda evolve from being a tool that makes teams more productive to one that also helps bring the best practices across the tech industry to life with an incredibly rich collection of templates and guides in the Coda Doc Gallery, including resources from many guests on this podcast, including 3OS, Gokul, and Shishir, the CEO of Coda. Some of the best teams out there, like Pinterest, Spotify, Square, and Uber, use Coda to run effectively and have published their templates for anyone to use. If you're ping-ponging between lots of documents and spreadsheets, make your life better and start using Coda. You can take advantage of a special limited time offer just for our startups. Head over to coda.io/lenny to sign up and get $1,000 credit on your first statement. That's coda.io/lenny to sign up and get $1,000 in credit on your account. Adam, welcome to the podcast.
- AGAdam Grenier
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
It's my pleasure. I'm really excited to chat. So I'm gonna give a very brief overview of your very impressive career, and just let me know if I missed anything.
- AGAdam Grenier
All right.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Sound good?
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Okay, so you were, uh, most recently VP of marketing at MasterClass, which I'm actually a happy subscriber of, and have watched many-
- AGAdam Grenier
Great.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
... many a video.
- AGAdam Grenier
(laughs)
- LRLenny Rachitsky
(laughs) Before that, you were VP of product and marketing at Lambda School. I don't know if that's right before, but that was something you did. (laughs) Al- also you were head of growth and marketing at, uh, marketing and innovation at Uber, which is a really cool title. And I think you spent four years there, and you basically built their growth marketing infrastructure and, and the team.
- AGAdam Grenier
Mm-hmm.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
And currently you're doing a bunch of advising and kind of exploring to see what you kinda wanna do next. Is that about right?
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah, yeah. You, you hit most of th- Most of the key points. I think pre, pre-Uber, the first kinda chunk of my career was on the advertising side, so worked in, like, agency world. So I kinda think of, uh, this as phase three of my life. Ad- ad ads world was phase one, kinda startup and growth world phase two, and now really just spending time helping, uh, helping entrepreneurs and founders and, and build companies and that type of stuff, so yeah.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
What's been your favorite phase so far?
- AGAdam Grenier
I mean, kind of all of them. I'm, I'm, like, I just embrace what gets thrown at me and, and allow it to, to organically happen, so, uh, uh, each kinda phase has had its, its pros and cons and ups and downs, and so I think they, they've all fit pretty well into where I was in my career.
- 5:34 – 13:09
How improv can improve creativity and collaboration
- AGAdam Grenier
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Speaking of, uh, moving and adjusting and, and iterating, I know you're big into improv, and-
- AGAdam Grenier
Yep.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
How- h- like how serious are you about improv?
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah, good question. Serious in the sense that I've, like, done it for a very long time and I- and I still do it, and I try to do it regularly. Serious as in, like, am I aiming to, you know, make money off of it and, like, have a career out of it? Un- unfortunately not. There was a point in my life that that is what I wanted to do. I lived in Chicago, did Second City Improv Olympic, a variety of different places, did quite a bit of performing, but also got into, you know, corporate paychecks, uh, (laughs) early as well, and so kind of built a lifestyle that made doing improv full time probably not the best path for me at the time. And so made a pretty conscious choice early on that it was more of a hobby, and if something ever came of it, cool, but if not, that's okay. It's still, uh, it's something I keep coming back to 'cause it's very grounding and, like, fulfilling in ways that, you know, work and family life and things like that don't quite hit for me.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Actually, at Airbnb we had an improv teacher come-
- AGAdam Grenier
Mm-hmm.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
... and work with the PM team. It was, like, for months. We did, like, improv games every once a week-
- AGAdam Grenier
Nice.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
... and played all these fun things. And I'm curious what- what you've taken away from improv that has helped you become better at your work.
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah, so I think, like, generally the whole suite of skills that you develop in improv are- are pretty applicable, right? 'Cause you're getting comfortable on your feet with change, with teamwork, building off of each other, experimenting, trying new things, like, a little bit of everything. I think a couple of the- the key, like, rules or themes of improv that I- I, like, really try to hammer home with people are, like, obviously the yes-and side of improv, which everyone's probably heard, which is, you know, uh, in a scene, the worst thing you could do is deny somebody because you're actually just, like, stopping progress and you're not building off of anything. So the- the appropriate approach is to say, like, "Yes, that is true, and," and add to it. So if someone's like, "Hey, you have a chicken on your head," like not saying, "No, I don't," just kind of ruins that scene versus saying like, "Yes, I do, and it's, uh, name is Sally. Like, what's your chicken's name?" Like, builds on that and, like, gives it more opportunity. And so, like, I- I think that in- in growth in business is super important to be able to say, like, "Yes, I do see, you know, your idea," or, "Yes, we did accomplish this and, like, this is what we wanna do next and this is how it's going to build on it," I think is- is super important. The other one that I- I think is less known, um, or talked about is- is the gift of details. And so in- in a scene, if you give somebody, like, really specific details about something, like, it gives, like, so much more meat to be able to work off of in terms of, like, what's coming next. So if, uh, if someone's starting a scene and they're clearly, like, watching television and, like, clicking through the channels and I walk up and just say, like, "Oh, you're watching TV? Cool." Like, that's a yes statement. I'm not denying what they did. But if I come up and say, like, "Oh, cool, you're watching TV. Oh, is that an- an ALF episode? Oh, I haven't seen ALF since I was a kid. It reminds me of this one time I actually ate my own cat." Like, (laughs) just giving those specific details of ALF and me as a kid and, "I ate a cat," like, the- which if- if people don't know ALF, like, he ate cats. The, uh-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Oh, wow.
- AGAdam Grenier
(laughs) So-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
I don't remember that.
- AGAdam Grenier
(laughs)
- LRLenny Rachitsky
I remember ALF, but I don't remember he ate cats.
- AGAdam Grenier
He- he was always trying to get the- the family cat. Um, d- so those kinds of details, like, add a- a ton of value, and you take that into the business world, and so use MasterClass, for instance. If I say, like, "Yeah, MasterClass, we've got this way to build content that is both entertainment and education." Like, that's interesting, right? But if I say, "We- we create content that is both education and entertainment to solve people's, like, deep curiosities in the way that maybe a biography would." Like, that just, like, opens up, like, the exact problem that you're trying to solve. Like, what are other alternatives to that problem? Like, how are people consuming that? So I think the- the gift of details in, like, good improv and learning those skills is something that I- I really value and- and look for kind of in every aspect of my business life as well.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
It sounds like it's really helpful, one, in, like, marketing creativity and positioning, things like that you just described. Have you found it also to be helpful in collaboration, like this yes-and piece? I'm curious, is there an example or story where you, like, yes-anded someone? Do you actually say "yes and" in a meeting? How do you actually-
- AGAdam Grenier
(laughs)
- LRLenny Rachitsky
... find that you use this skill?
- AGAdam Grenier
I k- I hear it every now and then. I don't usually literally say it. I think one of the areas that I've found it to be valuable is when you've got, like, cross functional work. So obviously, like, at Uber, we dealt with city teams a lot, and so a lot of the times the way that the central team would scope a problem versus a- a local team would scope a problem would almost feel at odds with each other. And if you approach it with that yes-and, it's often still true, right? It's like, oh, both of these things can be true at once. You could have a different goal than I have, or you have a- a system problem local to you that is important to you, and it's not important to me. Like, that's okay. That's- that- the both things can exist. So now that we accept both and can work off of each other, like, we're more likely to build both a better rapport and energy am- among ourselves because we're not just saying, like, "No, no, no, no, you're wrong." Like- like, "That's not true. That's not important to the business. Why are you doing that?" Like, that type of energy when cross functional work, like, it just kills the scene, right? It kills that progress, and then you just... You- you don't build relationships, you don't build the right solutions, all that type of stuff.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
That sounds really good. Like, everyone, in theory, wants to be really good at this, and I imagine just doing a bunch of improv is a really good way to get better at, like, not getting defensive and being like, "Yes, and how do we make this idea better?" Is there something you can advise folks to work on this skill? Or is it just, like, do a bunch of improv classes and it'll kind of help-
- AGAdam Grenier
(laughs)
- LRLenny Rachitsky
... build and change the way you think?
- AGAdam Grenier
I mean, that's one. I- I would say that, like... I'll- I'll say that all the time to people. Like, "Do some improv classes." And I get a lot of people who are like, "No, I d- I'm not funny," or, "I- I don't wanna do improv." And I- I think it's still a really great class to take even if you have zero interest in doing improv or public speaking or any of that kind of stuff because again, like, Improv 101...... is taught everywhere. Like, every city has it somewhere. And it's rarely ever, like, people that are trying to do improv professionally, right? It's just, like, it's all games, like you said. Like the, the classes that you all did at Airbnb is what Improv 101 is, right? It's just like, "Hey, let's just have fun. Let's just get out of our skin," and things like that. So I- I do think everybody should take improv classes. I think it's also something, uh, with a lot of goals or skills that you wanna develop, I think being really public and open about you wanting to develop that. So if you're managing a team and you wanna sharpen the skills, like make it a team goal or, you know, have accountability and just say like, "Hey, guys, I- I know that I've been pushing back on things lately. I wanna really try to embrace and grow off of ideas better. Hold me accountable. Like call me out and be like, 'Adam, yes, and this, please.'" Or, you know, like we can, like, you know, giving people permission to push back on that when it doesn't happen, I think also just opens the door for more, like, productive conversations with people and the ability to, like, hold yourself accountable and, and keep trying it.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
I love that, and such a good team bonding activity. There's like all these reasons to do this as a team.
- AGAdam Grenier
Mm-hmm.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
My wife, actually, she's a designer, artist, writer, illustrator kind of person, and she's been taking a lot of these sorts of classes to help kind of inspire her creativity. She just never wants to be an improv person. She didn't like standup classes and it just-
- AGAdam Grenier
That's awesome.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Yeah, as you said, it just helps you kind of like get the juices flowing along these lines.
- 13:09 – 13:52
What we’ll cover in this episode
- AGAdam Grenier
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Okay, so we're not gonna talk about improv the whole time. There's kind of-
- AGAdam Grenier
(laughs) We could, if you want to.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
We could or just (both laugh) ... go, "Throw me your words, let's- let's (laughs) let's go."
- AGAdam Grenier
(laughs)
- LRLenny Rachitsky
No, we don't wanna do that. So there's basically three things I really wanted to chat about with you. One is how to decide when to invest in an emerging acquisition channel, like TikTok, VR, Clubhouse was a big thing. You have some really interesting thoughts on how to decide and approach this thing.
- AGAdam Grenier
Mm-hmm.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Two, the growth CMR role, which is kind of this, I think, emerging role, something you're- you're really good at and I just wanna get your thoughts on what's happening there. And then three, some real talk on burnout and depression that often comes with working in tech and stuff that we go through. Does that-
- AGAdam Grenier
Perfect.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
... sound good?
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Okay,
- 13:52 – 25:38
Determining when an acquisition channel is a good match
- LRLenny Rachitsky
great. So to start with, in the first topic, if you think about just every company essentially goes through this kind of S-curve of growth. They start slow, they find something that's kinda working, then hopefully it works out and things start to grow, grow, grow, and then eventually it kind of flattens out, and you kind of see this S-curve that happens. And every company is always trying to find the next S-curve to add this layer on the cake that keeps overall growth up while this first growth channel slows. And so people are always looking for, like, "What's the next thing?" They're, "Oh man, Clubhouse is coming out. We should get on Clubhouse. Oh, TikTok's so hot, we gotta run some TikTok ads." And there's all these- there's always something new, like newsletter ads, I don't know, podcast ads, if that's new. And you have a really interesting framework for how to think about this and make decisions and experiments, so, um, I'd love to hear your insights there.
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah, so, um, the, uh, like exploring emerging channels framework that I'll take either my teams or companies that I'm advising through has kind of core- three core ingredients that I like to spend time with. So the first is really understanding if there is a- an overlap between what the customer's need is, what your company's goals are, and what the channel actually does, like, really well. So, uh, the example I've used in the past is, you know, Spotify in the moment of, like, things like Clubhouse and Paparazzi and stuff like that becoming really popular. Well, for Spotify, you know, they are, uh, you know, they're- they're trying to get more people to consume music and be entertained by music and things like that, and it's all audio-driven, right? And- And so their- their growth goals are probably around new customers or- or deeper engagement with- with audio. The- The customers' needs are, you know, like- like discovery and, you know, more ways to maybe have deeper relationships with their music. If- If you're a jazz fan, like- like can you learn new- new jazz artists or more about the artists that you love? Things like that. And then take those two channels, if you take something like Clubhouse, it's audio first. It's almost like live podcast radio type feel to it. You can get into these rooms with just, like, people with really amazing esoteric knowledge about something, and so its strengths have, like a really clean overlap to me with the goals of Spotify, the- the needs of the customer, and the- the strengths of that. And so that to me is, like, great. That is probably a- a green light in terms of, is it even worth our time, right? Versus like Paparazzi is, like, very photo-driven and, like, nothing really to do with music or anything like that, and so it's like, yeah, even though Paparazzi might have, like, become the best, biggest channel ever, like, is that the thing you should be putting your time into? It- It would be like a yellow light for me, at best, right, for-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
And how would you- how would you describe that again? That's like the medium matches?
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah, so the medium, like the- the strengths of the medium, right? So let's take like Influencer right now. Actually, like two of the channels that a lot of people are talking about right now are, like, streaming TV or OTT and influencer marketing, right? And so to me, like one of the strengths of influencer marketing is hyper-targeted contextual marketing, right? And so I can go find the five influencers that are, like, hardcore ALF fans, right? (laughs) And like, and if I'm, you know, marketing ALF something, like great, I can go find that specific thing. Whereas OTT is a lot- lot harder to get, like, that specific. OTT's strength is, like, broad reach and video storytelling and that type of stuff, right? So it's like, okay, well, maybe my medium is, if I'm Masterclass and I have a ton of video content and storytelling and things like that, like, that channel actually, like, makes a ton of sense probably, right? So it's kind of like, what are the strengths of that channel is something that I- that is actually probably the piece I see people ignore the most, which is they just wanna know if a channel is hot or not. And i- and (laughs) this gets especially hairy, like, uh, in this world of a lot of B2B doing, like-... more consumer-esque marketing. And, like, bo- like, there's so many B2B companies that, like, just don't apply to emerging channels, right? Emerging consumer channels, right? And it's just like, "Please, just stop. I don't, you know, I, I, I don't need a, a Notion Clubhouse channel this week."
- LRLenny Rachitsky
(laughs)
- AGAdam Grenier
Like, there just isn't, like, the... And maybe there is, maybe there's a world to, to do that. But I think that's, that's kinda number one, is making sure that there's, like, even a reason (laughs) that you should be there to put it on your radar right now.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Awesome. What-
- AGAdam Grenier
Um-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
What does OTP stand for, by the way?
- AGAdam Grenier
Oh my gosh, you're putting me on the spot.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Or just-
- AGAdam Grenier
And I don't-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
No, no, it's all good.
- AGAdam Grenier
... I'm drawing a blank on it. Uh-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
But essentially, it's streaming, streaming platform.
- AGAdam Grenier
Above the (laughs) , o- over the top, over the top.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Oh, I see.
- AGAdam Grenier
So it's instead of it being-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Not cable.
- AGAdam Grenier
... like cable TV, it's, sorry, it's coming from a box or... So it's primarily, if you think of, like, ads on Amazon or Hulu or, or even if you go to, like, cnn.com and you start streaming and you get an ad first-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Got it.
- AGAdam Grenier
... it's basically like video ads. Um, but a lot of them now are happening on televisions and on streaming services rather than just on, on websites.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Got it. Okay, cool. So the first is kinda the strength of the channel. You should look at that.
- AGAdam Grenier
Yep, yep. And, and how that overlaps with your customer and your business needs. The, the second is the channel DNA. And so, um, this is looking at things like where, you know, where are they in their, their trajectory? So Clubhouse is actually a perfect example because in a weird way... So Clubhouse got hot before Facebook got cold, and I was pretty amazed how many more people were trying to crack Clubhouse than TikTok. Like, 'cause TikTok hadn't really released their ads solution yet, but neither had Clubhouse (laughs) . But everybody was talking about Clubhouse, and, like, TikTok is very clearly, like, not going away anytime soon, where Clubhouse hopefully won't. Like, this is an amazing product. I really enjoyed it and loved it. But it was, like, clearly, like, very early, very quickly at that point of hotness where everyone was just kind of like, "That's the reason I should be there." And part of this reason is to accept, like, the risks of going into that channel, right? So if I go and dedicate two quarters to, of work to Clubhouse, I need to accept that, like, they are so early in this curve that there's a good chance this is like a once in a lifetime opportunity and it'll be over next... I- it's not a repeatable action. It also is important because, m- if you get something to work on a channel that's earlier in their growth curve, the likelihood that they will change is very high. You're going to need to commit a lot of cycles to keep it going, right? Because it's like, okay, well the, their product is going to evolve drastically very quickly over the next two years. And so the thing that's working right now... And so a really good example is, like, Facebook early comp- I, I was at Zoosk. And so, like, Zoosk and companies like Zynga got tons of their early growth because of notifications on Facebook, which was one of their early, like, features which allowed basically anybody that took any action on Zynga, it would post on everybody else's page that, like, you got 10 carats. And that was, like, a huge growth lever, right? But then Facebook just pulled the plug on that. And so it's like, well, if you put all of your energy into that and that's it. Like, it was pretty clear that that was still an area that's like, "This may not last forever," right? The last thing on the channel DNA that I like to look at that's a little bit more... I don't know if it's, if odd or unusual is the right term, is I, I like to spend a lot of time thinking about how they monetize. Like, what is the monetization strategy of the channel? And the reason is because if you, as a business, can match or support their monetization strategy, it actually gives you, like, a really interesting leg up with that channel. Because the likelihood of you being able to, like, call them up and, like, go do custom stuff with them or partner with them, or that your solutions will actually, like, stick around for a while, go up pretty drastically. And so this is... Like, my key example of this was with when Facebook started exploring mobile ads. HotelTonight, we were one of the, like, alpha testers of, of mobile ads 'cause I'd been sitting here buying, you know, ad inventory on networks for, you know, th- the last five or six years and just waiting for Facebook to work, 'cause it just wasn't really working for mobile installs. And it's like, I know this is a huge channel 'cause I can use it on my, like, online marketing, like, my, my web marketing. But as a mobile acquisition, it's nowhere near as efficient as a lot of these other networks. And so as soon as they were doing that, I was able to basically position and say like, "Look, uh, you wanna work with us." (laughs) Like, "Let me into your alpha because I have five years of experience, like, already buying mobile ads. I know the space. I know it'll work." And if you get us to work, we're a killer case study because we are a non-game. And, like, a lot of money is spent on gaming, but there's these wh- whole other major categories that you're gonna need other than gaming, like examples within that, that group. So, like, you're gonna be able to use me as a case study in, like, a lot of different scenarios than the gaming players. And so I was spending a lot less than the gaming players, but because of that, understanding that, like, your goal at Facebook is to make ads work for all of travel and for all of leisure and all, you know, those kinds of things, like, that's the value of working with me. So that's another piece of the, kinda the channel DNA I like people to, to focus on.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Awesome. That's such a good one. Because to your point, if your goals are aligned, they're gonna be like, "Yes, we want, let's make this happen." And they're always-
- AGAdam Grenier
Yep, exactly.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
It always feels like it's this behemoth that doesn't wanna talk to any new startups. But if you can make the case of this is gonna help you and the way you laid it out is so clear, it's such a good idea.
- AGAdam Grenier
And especially with emerging channels, right?
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grenier
'Cause their whole thing is that, like-
- 25:38 – 30:11
Advice for how long to test a new channel
- AGAdam Grenier
into new channels.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
What advice do you have or can you give to founders, teams that are trying to test one of these in terms of just, like, how to, how to run these tests? Like, how much time should they spend, would you say? What do they look for? I know that that's a hard question, it's super dependent on the situation, but any advice there?
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah, so I think the going through those three ingredients should help shape that answer, right? 'Cause if you're like, "Okay, well the first one is super strong. The channel DNA is maybe, like, really early, and I've got a, um, small to mid-sized team and maybe only one channel working," then it may be like, great, put, like, half of one person into this because it's maybe interesting. But, like, don't put any more than that into it, right? Versus if it's like, "Man, this is a killer fit. The channel's, like, a little further along. It seems pretty sp- and I have a 20-person team, so I'm gonna put, like, three dedicated people to this because we are in prime position to be the leaders in this new channel and, like, really push it." So I think it, it really... it's figuring those pieces out because it is a very, like, it-depends answer, but rarely ever is it like, "Hey, this should be your entire team's focus for the next, (laughs) like s- three sprints or five sprints." Like, I think that, you know, if you've got that half person working on it for a while and there starts to be some magic happening, sure, put a sprint or two against it, like, as a whole team. But generally speaking, I think keeping it minimum at first is my, like, typical recommendation.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
I had another guest, Yuri, who I think you know, from, uh-
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
... former Grammarly, and he made a really good point that it's often better not to try something than to do it badly and then take away the wrong lessons. I guess, like, in your experience, what's, like, a timeframe you think people should put into this stuff? Like is it, you said two sprints, maybe, like, a couple weeks? Like, I don't know, what's, like, the range of just, like, maybe don't spend more than X months on something new if it's not, like, clearly working just based on your experience?
- AGAdam Grenier
Generally, like, I wouldn't let anything bleed past a quarter. Like, you can probably get some good signal in a month or less, like, like what I would call fishing. Like, it wouldn't be like you're just, you know, putting bait in the water to figure out where the fish are, not necessarily getting statistically significant repeatable solutions. The big variables that can change that timing, so like, you know, if I'm exploring a new video channel, like, the content I need to create is if I'm gonna have to create something that takes three weeks to produce and $20,000 to make, I may wanna give it a little more time 'cause I gave it a more of an upfront investment, right? Versus if it's like, "Oh, I wanna put text ads in podcasts, like listings or something like that." It's like, great, I can, like, I can do that by myself, you know, (laughs) like at midnight and it's not distracting anybody or anything. And if it doesn't work in three weeks, let's move on. But yeah, generally, like, I'm... I- ideally what you're working through, and, and we'll talk a- you can touch a little bit more on this with like the growth CMO is that like, this should all be part of a roadmap, right? Like, it shouldn't just be, like, randomly chosen and thrown at is this should be part of your, like, sprint process and you should have a backlog of other things that you wanna try. And so you're actually weighing that decision of how long based on, like, what other opportunities you're missing out on by investing in that. But I, I would say, like, most channels, especially new ones, are gonna take more than a couple cycles to kind of suss out 'cause there's no rules. There's no, there's no playbooks yet on how to do them well. So give it a little bit of time. But yeah, if you're going over a quarter and you don't feel like directionally it's getting better or it's interesting, like, I, I would, you know, put it back on ice for a while.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Cool. And to your point, you're not gonna see any, like, statistically significant answers. Is the thing you look for just, like... is it, like, you know it when you see it, like, oh wow, qualitatively feels like it's working kind of thing? Is that what you kinda look for?
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah, and I think the- I, I define that going into it, like, what am I looking for for this?
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grenier
So something like Clubhouse, I'm probably not gonna see clicks, right? It's, it's more about like, okay, are we able to start a room and increase the size of that room by 10% every time that we run it? Okay, great, that means that we're at least getting better at this and there's more reach, like, available to us. But if we're getting 20 people every time we start a room and then it goes down to 15, then like, we're either not doing this well, the channel's not doing well, or like, there's just not enough reach for us to actually, like, expand. Versus like TikTok, you might be able to say like, great, this is all about, like, I can actually track clicks and conversions so let's look at it the way we would any other channel.
- 30:11 – 36:53
Emerging platforms that are worth exploring
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Got it. So, kinda look for momentum and that you're getting better and that it's moving somewhere. Awesome.
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah, yep.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Cool. So, a question that I'm sure is on many people's minds that they would wanna ask is, Adam, what are emerging platforms that are interesting right now that we should experiment with? What have-
- AGAdam Grenier
(laughs)
- LRLenny Rachitsky
... what have you, what do you feel?
- AGAdam Grenier
Um, yeah. So I mean, I mentioned, uh, OTT or, like, uh, basically the key thing with OTT is that it's way more trackable than traditional television, but it has similar value that traditional TV does in terms of the ability to do more long-form storytelling-type content. And a lot of it's not skippable if you buy it, right? And so-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
I would hate that.
- AGAdam Grenier
... you can actually, like-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Oh my god. That's freaking out.
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah. And so, so those are reasons to be exploring that right now. It's hard for me to call that an emerging channel 'cause it's been around forever. It's just, there's more of it and there's the tools and s- services around it are way better now than they were four years ago. And so I think the, the sophistication and ability to scale OTT is much higher now than ever before. Influencer is probably the one that I'm most intrigued by because similar to OTT, like the, the scale and services and the ability to go do it is still there. It's also got that hyper-granularity that, like, when I get into influencer tools, it feels to me like early Facebook when I used to go be able to target Lenny (laughs) , right? Or 10 people that have exactly the same likes as Lenny, right? And that type of stuff. Whereas, like, you can get so specific and, like, find exactly who you need. It's incredibly tedious and manual and it's a lot of, like, like, relationship management. So I'm also, I- I'm also keeping an eye on, like, the technology being built around influencer 'cause I think that's a huge area of, of opportunity for entrepreneurs right now. But generally speaking, like, the scope and a- opportunity there is huge and it's not going away, but it's very... It feels very new and different right now. And the ability, an- and it supplements the ability to do some hyper-level targeting that you've not been able to do, like, that Facebook and Google are getting less open about at the same time. I think VR is really interesting in the way that mobile was interesting before, like, iPhone 3, right? Where it was like, if you've got a VR app, like, it's a really interesting space. But if you don't, I- I... It's not that interesting to me yet. Any that have come up for you that you're like-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
No, these are great.
- AGAdam Grenier
... "Oh, we need thoughts on this channel." (laughs)
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Like, all I can think of Tik- TikTok <|agent|><|en|>
- AGAdam Grenier
I feel like TikTok's across the chasm, whereas they actually have a formalized ad platform now. People are finding scale. There's still a ton to do there and it, you know, influencers is also weird because it crosses all of these other worlds as well. But I- I think TikTok is actually hyper-interneting and everyone should be doing that, like, th- but I think of that less as you should be doing it as this, like, should I do it, should I not? And it's more sh- I need to figure out how to do Facebook if I'm at least mildly appropriately should be there. The, like, podcast ads I think are great. I think that I- I bought podcast ads, like, 15 years ago. So it's not, it doesn't feel like an emerging channel to me.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Right.
- AGAdam Grenier
I think there's way more volume now than there's ever been before. The, one of the guys that was on my team at Uber has a, a company that's doing, like, programmatic buying and that type of stuff. And so, I think there's more opportunities on podcasts. I think podcasts, people wanna treat it like Facebook ads or, like, like direct response ads, like immediate response ads. And actually, what I keep seeing as the effective, like, strategy with podcast ads is treating it more like radio, where it's more about getting on the right program, making it personal and feel like it should be part of that program, and then repeating over and over and over again. And so, yeah. So, I think podcasts is super interesting. I think it's just hard to scale. Like, it's- it's likely not gonna get people at the same volumes as the Googles and Facebooks of the world.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
QR mid-roll ad. (Instrumental music) I'm excited to chat with my friend John Cutler from podcast sponsor Amplitude. Hey, John.
- NANarrator
Hey, Lenny. Excited to be here.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
John, give us a behind-the-scenes at Amplitude. When most people think of Amplitude, they think of product analytics, but now you're getting into experimentation and even just launched a CDP. What's the thought process there?
- NANarrator
Well, we've always thought of Amplitude as being about supporting the full product loop. Think collect data, inform bets, ship experiments, and learn. That's the heart of growth to us. So the big ah-ha was seeing how many customers were using Amplitude to analyze experiments, use segments for outreach, and send data to other destinations. Experiment and CDP came out of listening to and observing our customers.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
And supporting growth and learning has always been Amplitude's core focus, right?
- NANarrator
Yeah. So Amplitude tries to meet customers where they are. We just launched starter templates and have a great scholarship program for startups. There's never been a more important time for growth.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Absolutely agree. Thanks for joining us, John. And head to amplitude.com to get started.
- AGAdam Grenier
I also come from a very consumer perspective. I- I would... I'm actually stronger on, like, B2B companies using podcasting because it has that exact same value I just described, but each one of their customers is substantially more valuable, so they don't need the scale that a consumer, like, application or product would need.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Yep. That's exactly who I work with usually.
- AGAdam Grenier
Per-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
One last question on this topic.
- AGAdam Grenier
Yep.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
What percentage of the time do you find that an emerging channel kinda works? Is it, like, 20% of the time, 10%, 5%? Like, what's kind of, like, what should people estimate of, like, "Okay, it's probably not gonna work, but when it does, it's gonna be game-changing"?
- AGAdam Grenier
I like 5% of the time.
- 36:53 – 37:55
Influencer marketing tools
- LRLenny Rachitsky
the launch. One question I wanted to come back to, are there tools that you recommend for influencer marketing that you wanna plug or, or point out? Or is there nothing that-
- AGAdam Grenier
We were using Grin at a master class. We onboarded them. I, I looked, so there's probably like half a dozen companies in that same zone where they're, they're, they're building tools that allow you to do the discovery of influencers, the CRM of those influencers, and also often like the, like the measurement and payments and all that kind of... So it's like an all-in-one type of management platform. That being said though, it, like I said, it's still super manual. Like it's nice to be able to go and like find this list of like 50 influencers that are the exact right influencer for this class launch or whatever it might be, but it's still then I have to go, like wait till they all respond to me and that there's still a lot of manual back and forth. So that's probably one of, um, yeah, I'm trying to think of the... There, there's a few other in that same category that are competitive with Grin that are, they all seem equally pretty good. I can't even remember the reason we chose Grin over some of the other ones.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
It's a good name.
- AGAdam Grenier
Like it was all pretty close. Yep.
- 37:55 – 41:22
When to broaden your audience
- AGAdam Grenier
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Sweet. Okay. If any other comes to mind, we'll throw it in the show notes.
- AGAdam Grenier
Yep.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Before we get to the growth CMO discussion, there's kind of this tangential area that I wanted to spend a little time on, which is this idea of, as a startup, you initially should and often do start with a very narrow audience, kind of your like early adopters, I call. I, I wrote a post about call- your super specific who.
- AGAdam Grenier
Mm-hmm.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
And eventually you wanna cross the chasm and go broader. And you have some interesting insights on how to think about that, when to do that. Can you talk about that?
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah, so I think the book Cross the Chasm is like a great place to start in terms of like thinking about the broader topic of that. Um, what I see missed a lot of the time that I like to spend time with people on is to really understand that those early adapters are actually like, or adopters, are, are often just drastically different than the, the broad audience. And spending time to actually like figure that out and like, and, and map out like what you need to see with those early adopters to have confidence that the product is actually gonna have product-market fit beyond them. Yeah, so that, that's... I don't have anything like hyper-specific to add to that necessarily or, or happy to dig in deeper to it, but it, it's, it's probably the, the biggest challenge that I've seen with a lot of companies that I've worked with. And then as I do more investing and things like that, like it's, it's probably the biggest flag that I see with a lot of companies that claim to have product-market fit, which is like you've g- you have very... Your TAM and your product-market fit are not using the same definition, right? Like, (laughs) like, and, and that problem, I think, is, is often a, yeah, just a red flag for a lot of companies that I meet.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Got it. So essentially, you often underestimate how challenging it'll be to grow from your initial kind of early adopter crowd.
- AGAdam Grenier
Yep.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Do you have any... Is there like an example of that happening where a company just like got screwed 'cause they didn't think about that enough? Or is there something someone can do early on? Is it like test a little bit more broadly early? What do you recommend there?
- AGAdam Grenier
I mean, Clubhouse might have been, might be a good example in the sense that they-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grenier
... leaned into the broader audience maybe quicker than they should have, right? Like, if they'd given it more time to really understand like the, like their product-market fit seemed to fit the moment in time, and like, uh, could they have built some experiments or tools or features that maybe stress test, "Will this work like in an ongoing fashion?" That's, you know, they were on such tear, that's pretty hard-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Right.
- AGAdam Grenier
... decision to make, I'm sure.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
So, so hard and so easy in hindsight.
- AGAdam Grenier
Um, that product... I, I think that's another piece of it is that like the, the audience changes like aren't always just like literal people, right? Like, like even right now, like one of the biggest pieces of advice I'm giving to people that are like, "How should we adjust our marketing with the economic changes and things like that?"
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grenier
I was like, "Start by assuming you no longer have product-market fit." (laughs) Because you had product-market fit in a different market. It's a different market now, so you have to start over, and, and then hopefully you do or it's pretty close to it, and you just have to adjust a couple things, and you could be right back on track. But like if you just assume like you need to launch a new channel to fix this problem, like you're gonna be wrong because like your entire customer base changed, not just the next 10% of customers that you're looking for. (laughs)
- LRLenny Rachitsky
It's just a reminder of how frigging hard startups are, man. Man, we have more-
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah, right?
- LRLenny Rachitsky
... product-market fit and... Okay, we've done, we're done. Let's move on.
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah, not anymore. Just kidding.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Not anymore.
- 41:22 – 49:36
What is a Growth CMO?
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Oh, man. Okay, sweet. So onto this next topic around the growth CMO. So you're this really interesting combination of marketing brain and also like very analytical growth person. And I think you refer to this as kind of this growth CMO, which I don't actually hear the term much, so I'm curious. What is a growth CMO, how do you define it, and, and why is it important?
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah, so it's something I've just spent a lot of the last few years thinking about, specifically because now I've been at a handful of companies where we've brought in CMOs that in all ways are like absolute world-class CMOs, and they don't last, they don't fit, and like they don't succeed, right? And so I've spent a lot of time figuring like, well, why not? Some of it coming because I'm spending time with those people being like, "Why are you doing it this way? That's not how..."... a, a company at our stage operates. (laughs) Trying to do it the way that, like, a traditional CMO would have done, you know, marketing for a company, et cetera. Like, one of the key examples I like to use is brand, in that, like, everybody, w- when they think about brand, they think about it as an action, not as, like, a, a consistent ongoing investment, or they think about it as, like, campaigns and things like that. And from, like, from planning to execution to learnings, a traditional CMO, like, will drive learnings and identify learnings. In, in my mind, I think a growth CMO is looking at each brand investment as, how do you then immediately follow that up with the next one? Like, how, how do you shift to this kind of, like, fast product iteration mindset with even things like brand? It's very possible, but it's so, like, counter to a lot of traditional marketing DNA that it, to me, means that we have a lot of mismatch marketing leadership and that quickly eliminates trust with the marketing organization. It means that we rename everything marketing to product-led growth or growth or (laughs) like, referral programs and, like, like, everything that it, it... To me, it actually, like, dilutes the value of, like, marketing should be playing in the company. I, I, and it doesn't mean that, like, the traditional marketing CMO isn't a good fit for some companies. Like, I think d- like, direct consumer products are still, like, very well-suited to have a more traditional CMO. But I think product-driven companies, product-led companies, if your CMO and your product leader aren't married at the hip, you're just missing out on just tons of opportunity and the likelihood of things actually working, like, very well, consistently, and, like, compounding on each other.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
So what other attributes of this person of c- of what you call a growth CMO sounds like partly it's being much more performance-driven, sounds like a big part of it is being very product, understanding product and not kind of creating these silos.
- AGAdam Grenier
Mm-hmm.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
We're gonna market the thing. You guys go build this thing. What else as a person that's a growth CMO, what else do you look for?
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah, so I, I would say, so data-driven, generally. Like, it doesn't have to be, like, uh, to me, performance is, like, a very loaded word in our world because people m- think, especially in marketing, think that means not brand. But they're very data-driven, and so when we take things like, like retention and, and even brand and, like, the consideration funnel and y- yes, you can't, you can't measure those exactly like you can measure landing page clicks and sales, but you absolutely can measure them. And, like, making that part of the DNA of everything that's happening, like, data being part of that, I think, is, is pretty quintessential of being a growth-driven CMO. The, the second, I think, is the iteration process, is not thinking about things and, like, "Hey, we need to plan for the next 24 months." But, like, you can still do that and you can still have a vision and everything. But having that more of, like, a, a agile-type approach to everything, whether, like... A- and again, this could be, like, the storytelling that your salespeople are doing to, you know, what are your landing pages look like to, like, what is the design of your logo to the brand itself. Like, all of those things, like, being more open to everything being, like, possibly iterated on on a regular basis, using data to, like, validate that and, like, challenge what has worked for you a week. You're like, we live in such a real-time world now, especially with product-driven companies, that things change so quickly. If you, as a marketing leader, aren't being iterative and thoughtful about things with it, then you'll get eaten alive. And then I think experimentation is just a, a huge piece of it, and something that I see a lot of more traditional marketing leaders, um, like, that it's just, it's the idea of experimentation is, like, try a new channel. It's not, like, how do we experiment with our brand? How do we experiment with our, like, the funnel, like, every, like, the whole picture, not just the top of the funnel or the external elements of it. The, one of the things that I've, I haven't quite figured out the right, like, language to put against this, but, you know, the, the traditional model of marketing is the, the four Ps, product, placement, promotion, pricing. And in my mind, like, the world that we live in now, like, like, product is no longer a part of marketing, but it's actually, like, they're married at the hip. It's act- they're all, they're one and the same, and most companies aren't operating that way. They're still operating as if they're two wildly different things. Even if they say they're working together, it's still like, like, there's not. And to me, it's just like, no, no, no. Like, the product i- is, like, the company now and the marketing, like, is integrated with literally every single piece of it. And it's not just a, like... A, a lot of traditional marketing got established in, like, the 1920s and the 1950s around, like, products that took, you know, years to develop or try or thing. And like, or, like, a product team was, like, a science group trying new flavors of cereal, not necessarily... And, like, so the marketing team owned the box, the, like, where it went on the shelf and, you know, like, what the price was and, like, all of those kinds of things was marketing, right? Because product was such a wildly different part of the organization. And I, I think still there's just, like, a lot of fundamental things that marketers think about that are stuck in that world because most haven't had to grow through the, like, true growth of, of a business that's just being established today.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
And m- the assumption is every software company should be hiring, uh, a, a CMO that is of this sort of a growth CMO, right?
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah, and I would, I would say that, like, my sense is that there's very few marketing leaders that can't be a growth CMO. So I don't think you have to have come up as, like, a, a performance-driven experimentation. It's, it's more about, like, adapting and growing and, like, like, again, like, the fundamentals are all the same, right? Like, uh, one of my, like...... like, pet projects that I haven't done anything with yet, is that every time, like, something new comes out in the growth world, I go back in history as far as I can to try to find, like, the earliest example of that. Just to be able to say, like, "Oh, look, this isn't new." But we can learn from the way that, like, like, Coca-Cola invented the coupon. Like, the first known coupon was Coca-Cola giving away Coke for free. But it was actually a marketplace, because what they would do is they would actually give, like, f- they would go to a town and they would go to, like, the soda fountain, and they would give, like, a, like, free Coke, like, syrup, to that side of the market, and they would give coupons to the other side of the market to, like, spark it, to, like, get it going. And then it's like, "Well, now all the customers want Coke. Now you need to supply it. You'll pay for it." And that, to me, is just like, like learning that and understanding that is, like, really cool. And it's just interesting to me because I'm a huge nerd. But that, to me, is like, all of the things that great marketing leaders have learned are right. It's the operating aspect of those insights and those skills and understanding your customer and their psychology. Like, all of those things s- have stayed the same. It's the operating of it in the way a growth, like, organization, like a product-driven growth organization operates is very fundamentally different than the way a traditional marketing-run organization
- 49:36 – 51:32
Why marketing leaders should learn product development
- AGAdam Grenier
had run.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
I was gonna ask you what a marketing leader can do to evolve into this, where you think things are going. And your point about y- y- you're capable of it, you can iterate and adapt, is really great and empowering. Is there anything specific they can do to learn how to do this better other than... Is it like mentorship? Is there classes, courses, or just do the job, figure it out? Is there anything you can suggest there? So folks listening in, they're like, "Oh shit."
- AGAdam Grenier
Um.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
"I'm in trouble."
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah. I, I, honestly, I think, like, g- learn product development, right? Like go learn Agile product development. And there's, there's actually a book called ha- uh, Hacking Marketing, I think? I'll, I'll confirm. Th- but it's essentially, like, how to run a marketing team on Agile. That, to me, is just like, again, any great marketing leader should be able to go and consume how to do product development, how to run a product, like, like, sprints and those types of things. And their mind, if they're a great marketing CMO, or, uh, CMO, like, will be like, "Oh my gosh, I could do this with this big, like, event that we want to host. I could do this with, you know, everything." Like, there's nothing off the table when, when you actually, like, learn those fundamentals. But y- you know as well as I know, like, smart people can learn that stuff. Like, there's lots of resources out there. Reforge has some classes on it. There's a bunch of new product-led growth classes out in the wild. Like, Maven I think has a couple. And yeah, there, there's a variety of those types of things that just going and doing it. You don't have to go and, like, operate it yourself, like, you don't have to go become a product manager. But understanding those skills and those systems will, one, I think make you think differently about how to run your marketing team, and two, make you exponentially better at working with your product organization.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Awesome. I'm actually hearing from folks, uh, listening to this podcast, not live right now, but broadly, that this is a good way to learn how product works and how product leaders think. So that's interesting. So if you're listening to this, good job.
- 51:32 – 55:33
Red flags that your CMO isn’t a good fit
- LRLenny Rachitsky
- AGAdam Grenier
(laughs)
- LRLenny Rachitsky
You also mentioned that a lot of marketing leaders don't work out at a company. They join, they leave, things go wrong. As a hiring founder or leader, what, what do you look for to kind of tell you this person's probably not what we need and not what you'd call a growth CMO? Like, what are flags that are like, "Hmm, they're probably not gonna adapt and evolve to the way we wanna operate"?
- AGAdam Grenier
So I think first and foremost, uh, obviously depends on the stage. Anything like, let's say, C or below, like comfortable with chaos and willingness to go do something they have not done for probably 15 years, are like two huge signals for me. Because like, the... Every company I've been part of at every scale now, (laughs) which is all of them basically, is that's the thing that a lot of people coming from more traditional marketing environments into startup worlds, they, they're like, it's a, it's like a pace and the, just the, the unpredictability and change and those kinds of things are just at such a higher rate than they've seen for a long time that it can be really jarring for people. And I think that's totally reasonable. (laughs) Like, it's crazy, right? If anybody that's had the exposure on both sides. And then the, the willingness to go do the work is just that like, you know, like people are churning constantly and the challenges are different every week and those types of things. And so it's like every now and then you gotta go write an email or you gotta go like, you know, open up Facebook and get into the weeds with it, with your team, like into the data of it and that type of stuff. And that's stuff that like, I don't wanna do, personally, me. I'm past the point where I should be in Facebook. But like, man, when I need to, I'm willing to, and I'll go get in the weeds with it and I'll, like, I'll use my time to just be like, "Look, we have to figure this out now." And like, "I'm gonna go do the things that I thought I was (laughs) done with in my career." So those are, those are pretty big ones. I think then, generally speaking, one of the exercises I like to take founders through when they're hiring a marketing leader is, you know, every marketer is gonna have a, a T-shaped career, right? Everybody came from, like, something they probably became awesome at, and then over time just expanded their purview. And so like for me it was, you know, mobile. My, like I got into mobile, my first client ever was Sun Microsystems i- like early 2000s, uh, getting Java developers to make a- apps for flip phones. So I just like knew m- digital mobile world, like-... really, really well before a lot of people did. But then eventually, I'm like, "Great. Now I'm running an entire digital marketing team, now I'm running an entire marketing team, now I'm getting into growth, now I wanna learn product." And, like, I've expanded. And so typically, it's, like, going through that exercise of, like, find out their TEA, like find out their strength, and then spend time figuring out how they make up for those other things, right? So for me, I've r- uh, at Lambda School, I ran our PR team for a while. I am not a PR person, but I'm, like, my- I make it a goal in my life to get to the, like- the- the valley of despair of Dunning-Kruger effect to be like, "Great. I just need to know how bad I am at PR before, like..." (laughs) 'Cause if I still think I'm good at it, that's not a good place for me to be. But once I know how bad it is, I now know I need to go hire the right person to come in and I'm gonna listen to them. I'm not gonna assume that I'm smarter than them and those types of things. And so, like, uh, I think same thing with, like, product questions and data questions and experimentation questions for this- this concept of a growth CMO is like, well, if somebody's coming from a- a world where they've not had to work really closely with the product team, spend time with them to figure out how they plan on adapting to that. My guess is most won't have thought of that. The good ones will be able to figure it out together with you in that interview or afterwards or whatever it might be.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Awesome. Maybe one day we'll do a follow-up chat just to t- dive into hiring a marketing person. I know that's like a whole-
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah?
- LRLenny Rachitsky
... a whole deep topic.
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah, lots of thoughts.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Okay. Oh, man. Okay, we gotta
- 55:33 – 1:03:00
Dealing with depression and burnout
- LRLenny Rachitsky
book that. But, okay, so you mentioned the valley of despair, and that's a good segue to our next topic.
- AGAdam Grenier
(laughs)
- LRLenny Rachitsky
(laughs) So I found this old tweet of yours where you talk about burnout and depression, and you kinda make this point that a lot of times you feel like it's burnout and it's actually depression. And just broadly, mental health is just this topic that's not really spoken a lot about in tech and in business, and so I'd love to just spend a little time on this. I know you're very-
- AGAdam Grenier
Yep.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
... you're a big proponent of talking about these sorts of things. So I'm curious. I know you've been through both these things, and I'm curious just to hear your journey, what that's been like, what you've learned about how to get through it.
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah, so I, um... Kinda the two biggest inputs for me in terms of, like, really taking the time to understand my- my mental health, like, one is my wife, who's been a- a very strong proponent of, like, mental health resources for everybody, like, since I met her. And so, like, b- uh, just being able to learn from her and, you know, get exposure to, like, "Well, why is this important? Like, what are the values of it?" And seeing it pretty regularly of, like, you know, family members or coworkers where it's like, "Oh, man." Like, "I bet there's something deeper here (laughs) that, like, maybe is important for them to figure out." And, um-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Is that just something she's good at or is she, like, trained in this stuff?
- AGAdam Grenier
No, she's good at it and she's, you know, she's had therapy and stuff like that.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grenier
And- and just I- she's, like, one of the most, like, uh, empathetic, passionate people I've ever met in my life. And so she just feels, like, poor people so much that I think it's- it's something, like, really important to her.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Okay.
- AGAdam Grenier
And then at Uber, I got, like, to a spot where I was in- like, incredibly exhausted and tired and just down, not excited about work, and things like that. And so I started going to therapy, and with this assumption that I was just working too hard, right? That- that was kinda my, like, "Man, I need to go to therapy to figure out the tools that I need to deal with me working too hard." (laughs) And I just uncovered so many interesting things that I wouldn't have expected. So, like, you know, one was that, like, I'm the youngest child in my family and I did something pretty different than a lot of my, like, relatives and things like that. So, like, recognition is something I- I long for (laughs) and it turns out I get that at work, and I just hadn't gotten that, like, in other parts of my life. And so this thing that I'm like, "This is my problem," was actually, like, a solution to my real problem. And knowing that just helped me, like, totally just change my perspective of how hard I work, and it made me less, like... Like, I was, uh, I was getting judgmental about myself around, like, "Man, I'm working too hard. I shouldn't be doing this, but I have to." And then I got in this spot where I'm like, "Oh, I'm working hard because I love it, because I like it. I'm- I'm having an impact and I- I'm working with people I like and people respect the work that I do." And that helped me identify that, like, "Oh, I can work just as hard, but I can work smarter. I can work more on the things I have impact on. I can work more with people that actually respect the type of work that I'm doing." And that actually just, like, co- like, started to, like, relax me, right? And get me into this spot of like, "Oh, okay, that..." Like, I- I still had some burnout in there, and, like, that's part of the innovation. Part of my- my title was that I got to a spot where I'm like, I- I was traveling constantly, I had teams all over the world, and I was... The- the structure of Uber was working where every city had a GM, and I was, like, the person they called when their spend was too high. (laughs) And so 500 GMs, uh-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Uber GMs especially.
- AGAdam Grenier
... dealing with... So, yeah, e- exactly.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
(laughs)
- AGAdam Grenier
And so I- I was working in a world where I was dealing with a lot of politics and a lot of... And I love mentoring people and I had this massive team of, like, 150 people that, I'm like, "I barely know any of them, and so I'm not mentoring people either anymore." And I just got to this point where I'm like, "I'm working so hard on things that I actually don't enjoy." And so I'm like, "I'm gonna go work on flying cars and (laughs) ," uh, which is a whole other podcast too.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Okay. (laughs)
- AGAdam Grenier
So that was kind of my, like... Okay, there was burnout in there. I- I know that was a fact, but, like, some of those feelings are things that I felt my entire life that I uncovered that I thought was just burnout. I was like, "Oh, actually, like, that- this point in my life, this point in my life, and this point in my life, I felt this way too, and at those points I wasn't burnt out. And so I actually have deeper work to do here and deeper understanding of myself so that I can actually, like, maximize my life and enjoy it," right? "And because I'm gonna keep working to some degree this hard, and, um, yeah, I wanna just, like, make the most of that."
- LRLenny Rachitsky
I don't know if you mentioned this, but it-I imagine parts of those points were depression, not burnout.
- AGAdam Grenier
Mm-hmm.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
What's- what have you found to be that line of just like, "Oh, wow, this is a lot more serious than I'm just working w- way too hard"?
- AGAdam Grenier
For me, it's almost the like... It's kinda- it's hard to (laughs) describe. But like, I- I- I personally now can pretty cleanly, like, tell the difference between exhaustion and depression, and it tends to tie to my- my broader motivations, not just my motivation to work, right? So like, the- like when I'm exhausted, I will- I'll still show up to work, I'll still execute, I'll still do those types of things, but like, I'm gonna go and like if I- if I c- take an improv class, it's gonna be a blast, I'm gonna enjoy it and I'm gonna love it, right? If I'm depressed, I won't go to that improv class. Like, I'll just like n- cancel it, you know? I won't go to it. I won't... Or if I go to it, I'll go home immediately. Like one of the things I love about actual improv classes is the like- is the community, right? Is the like, "Hey, let's all go grab a drink now," and this is like a totally different group of people. It's not my family, it's not my, you know, it's not my work people, it's just me, right? And I wouldn't do that, right? And so it's kinda noticing like where else is this impacting, and to what degree and why, like can help me understand like, oh, there's- like what's going on in my life? Because, uh, more often than not, I can then take those feelings and it'll be like, "Oh, I've felt this way for like three weeks now, I should think about this and like dissect it a little bit." And so again, I'll spend time with my therapist and like w- work with my... Uh, one of the- one of the tools that my therapist has given me is to like open up with my friends and have these conversations with my friends. And so now I went from five, six years ago really just having my therapist or my wife to talk about this kind of stuff to, I don't know, I have five or six different friends that we're m- massively transparent with each other about this stuff. Because the second I shared any of this with them, they shared it with me, and now we've become like safe places to have those conversations where I can be like, "Hey, there's this thing going on," you know, like, my- my dad has ALS and so like, he's been really sick and, you know, I've got three kids and I've got jobs and work and money and the market crash and like, there's so many different things. It's just like, okay, let me actually figure out which one of these things is causing this energy right now? And having many years of therapy now and those resources can help me get to that solution, to get to that answer so that I can figure out, okay, what do I need to do right now? Is it, do I need to actually like take time for myself and dig deeper into these personal things? Do I actually need to change something with the shape of my career? Like those types of things.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Awesome. And it sounds like the things that have been most helpful, and I'm curious what else you'd recommend to folks that are maybe feeling some of this. So it sounds like therapy is really powerful. Your partner and being open to your partner, finding a group of friends where you could be transparent about these sorts
- 1:03:00 – 1:05:20
Tools to help you through difficult times
- LRLenny Rachitsky
of things. Is there anything else-
- AGAdam Grenier
Yep.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
... you suggest folks look into?
- AGAdam Grenier
Um, yeah, so I think the- like meditation's a good one, like the wh- startup people love to talk about-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grenier
... meditation and so you can find lots of- of ways to do that. It's kind of evolved for me, so there is the... It's in that tweet thread and I can't remember it now. There- there was a meditation thing that w- was the first... It- it almost felt like Noom for me, for meditation-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Oh, Waking Up.
- AGAdam Grenier
... where it wasn't just-
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Sam Harris'.
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah, Waking Up, right? Where it's like, oh, I'm actually learning about meditation, not just learning how to meditate, and that's how my brain likes to do things. I'm a- like a lifetime learner, I love digging into things. And so that was the first time I actually like... I- I'd learned bre- breathing techniques and things like that but going through that program of Waking Up was the first time I actually like really appreciated when and how and where to do it. I'm still not a everyday meditate person. I now use, uh... I'm an investor so I'm biased, but Aura, A-U-R-A, um, which is like a marketplace app for... It's like some of the other meditation apps, but it's a marketplace so it's actually like coaches and stuff adding content. So I use that now as needed, which I really enjoy. The, um, like exercise and diet and those types of things definitely tie to it. It's like, like eating is like a pretty clean signal for me (laughs) or snacking is a really clean signal, at least for me, of like, okay, this is, like I'm snacking more than I should be, and like eating healthy can both like help me identify that I'm in those spots but also just like make me feel better. One thing I would say is that like the therapist that I found, I found through a service that we had at Uber, and I think I was surprised how much stuff is covered by companies in terms of the ability to get- find a therapist, pay for a therapist, or other tools. And so that's one thing is I would suggest, like go look through your- your benefits, your- your healthcare provider offers a lot of that stuff too. Yeah, so those are a handful. Listen to- to Lenny's podcast (laughs) .
- LRLenny Rachitsky
I- I hope- I hope that to be true, I don't know if that's anywhere near as powerful as these other things. Uh, one thing I'll mention is on the meditation front, there's this amazing book that kind of does exactly what you also describe, where it teaches you why this works. It's called... It's got like a bad title, it's called Why Buddhism is True, and it's not-
- AGAdam Grenier
Mm-hmm.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
... trying to convince you to be a Buddhist, but it has a lot of incredible insights on why meditation is so powerful
- 1:05:20 – 1:07:15
Signs you’re facing burnout
- LRLenny Rachitsky
and- and how to think about it. So I'll put that in the show notes, too.
- AGAdam Grenier
Awesome.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grenier
I'm gonna check it out.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
I- I wanted to come back to the burnout piece. I imagine some folks are listening to this and they're like, "Am I burnt out? I don't know." What are- what are signs that you're burnt out versus just like working a lot and tired?
- AGAdam Grenier
The one that I see the most is- is a- like adaptability goes down really fast. And this is more me noticing... Like I- I manage a lot of people and coach a lot of people and so like, when I see that from people that I'm working with, I- like I usually immediately bring up, I'm like, "Look, like your openness to change in the business or trying new things or going back and trying things that maybe we tried before and didn't work, like..."... Has shifted from, "Oh, here are the flags that we should be aware of, but let's give it a shot," to, "Why are we wasting our time? Let's not do this." Like, l- like, there's just, like, energy around, like, "Let's just do the thing we're supposed to do." It's... That to me is just a... And, and I think that's maybe specifically applicable to our environment, to, like, high growth and marketing and product where it's just, like, that's just a key ingredient to doing this job well, is adaptability and flexibility and, you know, exploration. And if you're losing that, it's probably not because you've gotten bad at it, right? It's probably because you're just over it (laughs) , right? Like, where you're like, "I just don't wanna deal with the BS around this. I wanna go do the thing that makes my job easier," which, again, most of the people that have chosen this career path w- want their jobs to be harder, 'cause it's more fun, it's more interesting, it's more rewarding. And so when you're looking for ways to, like, minimize the challenge or the opportunity, I think that's, like, a pretty good signal that, like, there may be more burnout than just exhaustion. 'Cause, if, if anything, I see the opposite for people that are exhausted, where, like, they get re-motivated by new stuff, by opportunities to go do something different and that kind of
- 1:07:15 – 1:09:50
What’s next for Adam
- AGAdam Grenier
stuff.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Wow. Really good insight. Second-to-last question, I know you have to run. Where are you on this journey today, and then just what's next for Adam Grenier?
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah. Thank you. Good question. I'm constantly optimizing this matrix of, like, what am I good at versus what do I love doing. And so what I've found is that I just... I really love, like, entrepreneurs and working really closely with entrepreneurs and helping them, you know, figure out all of these, like, funky things that I've been able to see over the last 20 years, and maneuver a- and, and I've, I've worked at a lot of places, and so I'm, I'm really good at context changing and, and helping connect the dots for people. And, and so a couple of ways I've found to be able to do that is advising companies, so working with founders and growth leaders and things like that, and investing. And so I'm actually right now... I've been investing now for, kind of, six, seven years. I've recently joined Andreessen's Scout Fund, so I'm doing a bit more volume now. But, uh, I, I would say if I had to make a bet right now, I think a full-time or closer-to-full-time investing world is what I'd like to lean more towards. But I'm very much a let's-just-open-up-opportunities, and once the right one is in front of me, I'm gonna tackle it. And so who knows? I may go back full time somewhere or whatnot. But right now, like, the advising-investing-coaching kind of hybrid is the, uh, the, the term... I think it was Behzad at Reforge used, was, "Me as a service..." (laughs) "... is my, my current world." But I, I'd be shocked if I eventually don't gravitate toward some kind of foundation, 'cause I, I thrive when I've got a little bit of an anchor.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Amazing. MASS, Me As A Service.
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Okay. W- for folks that may wanna reach out to you about invest- taking your money in their startup or asking whatever questions-
- AGAdam Grenier
(laughs)
- LRLenny Rachitsky
... maybe advising questions, where can folks reach you and, and learn more?
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah. Just, uh, Twitter @akgrenier and LinkedIn as well is akgrenier. So, yeah. Look me up. Connect. I'm, I'm always open to connecting and chatting with people and just love digging into problems, so happy to, happy to abide.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
Amazing. Adam, this was such an action-packed chat. So many levels and layers. I can't wait for folks to listen to this. Thank you so much for joining me and being here.
- AGAdam Grenier
Yeah. Thanks for having me.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
My pleasure. Thanks, man.
- AGAdam Grenier
Good stuff. Take care.
- LRLenny Rachitsky
(music) Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode.
Episode duration: 1:09:50
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