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Lenny's PodcastShaun Clowes: Why AI products win on data, not on the model
What if great AI product work is really data management work; Confluent's leader grounds PMs outside the building, where customer insight differentiates.
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Episode Details
EPISODE INFO
- Released
- December 29, 2024
- Duration
- 1h 21m
- Channel
- Lenny's Podcast
- Watch on YouTube
- ▶ Open ↗
EPISODE DESCRIPTION
Shaun Clowes is the chief product officer at Confluent and former CPO at Salesforce’s MuleSoft and at Metromile. He was also the first head of growth at Atlassian, where he led product for Jira Agile and built the first-ever B2B growth team. In our conversation, we discuss:
- Why most PMs are bad, and how to fix this
- Why great AI products are all about the data
- Why he changed his mind about being data-driven
- How to build your B2B growth team
- How to choose your next career stop
- Much more
— Brought to you by:
- Enterpret—Transform customer feedback into product growth: https://enterpret.com/lenny
- BuildBetter—AI for product teams: https://buildbetter.ai/lenny
- Wix Studio—The web creation platform built for agencies: https://www.wix.com/studio
Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-great-ai-products-are-all-about-the-data-shaun-clowes Where to find Shaun Clowes:
- X: https://x.com/ShaunMClowes
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shaun-clowes-80795014/
- Website: https://shaunclowes.com/about-shaun
- Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/profiles/shaun-clowes
Where to find Lenny:
- Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
- X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Shaun’s background (05:08) The state of product management (09:33) Becoming a 10x product manager (13:23) Specific ways to leverage AI in product management (17:15) Feedback rivers (19:20) AI's impact on data management (24:35) The future of enterprise businesses with AI (35:41) Data-driven decision-making (45:50) Building effective growth teams (50:18) The evolution of product-led growth (56:16) Career insights and decision-making (01:07:45) Failure corner (01:12:32) Final thoughts and lightning round Referenced:
- Steve Blank’s website: https://steveblank.com/
- Getting Out of the Building. 2 Minutes to See Why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbMgWr1YVfs
- OpenAI: https://openai.com/
- Claude: https://claude.ai/
- Sachin Rekhi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sachinrekhi/
- Video: Building Your Product Intuition with Feedback Rivers: https://www.sachinrekhi.com/video-building-your-product-intuition-with-feedback-rivers
- Confluent: https://www.confluent.io
- Workday: https://www.workday.com/
- Lenny and Friends Summit: https://lennyssummit.com/
- A conversation with OpenAI’s CPO Kevin Weil, Anthropic’s CPO Mike Krieger, and Sarah Guo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxkvVZua28k
- Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com/
- Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/
- Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/
- Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira
- Ashby: https://www.ashbyhq.com/
- Occam’s razor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor
- Breaking the rules of growth: Why Shopify bans KPIs, optimizes for churn, prioritizes intuition, and builds toward a 100-year vision | Archie Abrams (VP Product, Head of Growth at Shopify): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/shopifys-growth-archie-abrams
- Charlie Munger quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/11903426-show-me-the-incentive-and-i-ll-show-you-the-outcome
- Elena Verna on how B2B growth is changing, product-led growth, product-led sales, why you should go freemium not trial, what features to make free, and much more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/elena-verna-on-why-every-company
- The ultimate guide to product-led sales | Elena Verna: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-led
- Metromile: https://www.metromile.com/
- Tom Kennedy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-kennedy-37356b2b/
- Building Wiz: the fastest-growing startup in history | Raaz Herzberg (CMO and VP Product Strategy): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-wiz-raaz-herzberg
- Wiz: https://www.wiz.io
- Colin Powell’s 40-70 rule: https://www.42courses.com/blog/home/2019/12/10/colin-powells-40-70-rule
- Detroiters on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80165019
- Glean: https://www.glean.com/
- Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Kick-Ass-Without-Humanity/dp/1250103509
- Listen: Five Simple Tools to Meet Your Everyday Parenting Challenges: https://www.amazon.com/Listen-Simple-Everyday-Parenting-Challenges/dp/0997459301
- Empress Falls Canyon and abseiling: https://bmac.com.au/blue-mountains-canyoning/empress-falls-canyon-and-abseiling
Recommended books:
- The Lean Startup: How Today’s Entrepreneurs Use Continuous Innovation to Create Radically Successful Businesses: https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Startup-Entrepreneurs-Continuous-Innovation/dp/0307887898
- Inspired: How to Create Products Customers Love: https://www.amazon.com/Inspired-Create-Products-Customers-Love/dp/0981690408
Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
SPEAKERS
Lenny Rachitsky
hostShaun Clowes
guestNarrator
otherNarrator
other
EPISODE SUMMARY
In this episode of Lenny's Podcast, featuring Lenny Rachitsky and Shaun Clowes, Shaun Clowes: Why AI products win on data, not on the model explores Product, Data, And AI: Why Most PMs Still Miss The Point Shaun Clowes, CPO at Confluent, argues that product management remains an underdeveloped discipline where outcomes and PM quality are highly variable, largely because most PMs focus too much inside the building and not enough on customers, markets, and data.
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