#1 LOVE Therapist: This Relationship Mistake Is HURTING Your Intimacy & Sex Life | Esther Perel

Esther Perel 0:00 We have never expected more from romantic love than we do today. Seriously, we want literally one person to give us what usually an entire village used to provide. We've never been more free, and we've never been more alone.

Lewis Howes 0:13 She has been called the goddess of love and connection. With two books and her wildly popular podcast, Where Should We Begin? The one, the only psychotherapist and best-selling author.

Esther Perel 0:23 Her name is Esther Perel. Sex is just a coded language for our deepest emotional needs, because tell me how you were loved, and I will know a lot about how you make love.

Lewis Howes 0:35 Interesting.

Esther Perel 0:36 This kind of modern definition of intimacy, into me see, because I come to you, and I don't just want you to give me advice, I want you to look at me in the eyes.

Lewis Howes 0:45 Understand me fully.

Esther Perel 0:46 I want you to respect me, value me, validate me, and I want you to help me transcend my existential alone-

Lewis Howes 0:53 Oh my God

Esther Perel 0:53 ... so that I never feel alone anymore.

Lewis Howes 0:55 Wow.

Esther Perel 0:56 Honey, can you deliver?

Lewis Howes 0:57 [laughs] What would you say are three tools that people who are single should start to work on so that they can enter a healthy relationship, or if someone's in a healthy relationship, how they can keep it thriving and not fading?

Esther Perel 1:11 Okay.

Lewis Howes 1:16 Welcome to Esther Perel, The Summit of Greatness. Very excited.

Esther Perel 1:20 How many years, how many years are we doing this?

Lewis Howes 1:22 Oh, man. Well, you, we first met, what, I think it was at Summit, Summit Series-

Esther Perel 1:27 Yes

Lewis Howes 1:27 ... I think it was, like 10 years ago or something, right? I think I saw you give a presentation, and, uh, we were on a cruise ship. Was it the cruise ship?

Esther Perel 1:35 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:35 I can't remember. Okay.

Esther Perel 1:36 2016, '17, but the main thing is not only how many years, it's we two have a relationship.

Lewis Howes 1:41 Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:41 That we have just supported each other-

Lewis Howes 1:43 Yes

Esther Perel 1:44 ... back and forth-

Lewis Howes 1:45 Yes

Esther Perel 1:45 ... and I've, there's not many people that are always there for me the way you are. I just wanna acknowledge that before I talk.

Lewis Howes 1:54 I first heard you speak, again, years ago, and I was just like, "I need to meet this person. She's incredible. I need to have her on my show. I need to support her and elevate her," because what you were saying, I was like, everyone is struggling with this. Everyone was struggling with what you were talking about back then, and it seems like now more than ever, people are struggling in relationships, especially after COVID. It's like either everyone got together during COVID or everyone broke up during COVID.

Lewis Howes 2:21 The political season happening now, people are realizing, oh, we don't have the same political views. Can we make this work? People want intimacy-

Esther Perel 2:29 Yeah

Lewis Howes 2:29 ... and connection more than ever, but they're more connected to their phones, and they're less present and willing to be vulnerable and loving and courageous and open-minded. Why, do you feel like it's harder than ever to be in a healthy, loving, committed relationship? Or are you seeing, with all the work that you're doing, the touring you're doing, the community you have, that people are just happy and they have no relationship problems?

Esther Perel 2:52 [laughs] Who is just happy?

Lewis Howes 2:54 [laughs]

Esther Perel 2:56 I think that both things are happening. I mean, look, what did you begin to say? I spent four years really digging into myself because I knew that I have to change my relationship to myself to be able to be available for others. And it, and I thought as I was listening, I said, the question is never... No, let me put it this way. Everybody has relationship issues they need to address. Everybody, me included, everybody. The only thing is not if you're gonna do it, but with whom. Who is the person with whom you're going to say, "I'm ready to do, to do this work"? So we have never expected more from romantic love than we do today. Seriously, we want literally one person to give us what usually an entire village used to provide. Here are all the things I want with you, companionship, economic support, family life, social status, the stuff that our parents and grandparents had, but then I want you to be my best friend and my trusted confidant and my intellectual equal and my efficient co-parent and my fitness buddy and my professional coach and my spiritual personal development guru-

Lewis Howes 4:07 [laughs]

Esther Perel 4:07 ... and last but not least, my passionate lover.

Lewis Howes 4:10 Oh, man. Wow.

Esther Perel 4:16 So this is my list [laughs] of what I want to find, and this is happening at a time when we have the complete under-resourced relationships with the loss of the traditional structures. No social hierarchies, no community, no, for many of us in the West, no religious guidance, and so everything is negotiated. Everything is negotiated, and that means that we need to have very good communication skills, but we don't have the communication skills because nobody's talking to each other.

Lewis Howes 4:51 Yeah.

Esther Perel 4:53 So there's a bit of a

Esther Perel 4:54 contradiction happening.

Lewis Howes 4:55 Yes.

Esther Perel 4:55 We want a lot. We can have more than we've ever had. We have the, a possibilities for so many choices that my grandmother couldn't dream about.

Lewis Howes 5:05 Yeah.

Esther Perel 5:05 But we don't have the tools to actually give us the possibility to establish.

Lewis Howes 5:10 What would you say are, are three tools that people who are single should start to work on so that they can enter a healthy relationship, or three tools, if someone's in a healthy relationship, how they can keep it thriving and not fading?

Esther Perel 5:26 Okay, I'll start with the second first. I don't know if it's tools or con- you know, ways of thinking. The first thing is that not only did I describe this enormous list of what, of what we look for in a partner, but on top of it, we wanna do it without a community. A couple lives in an ecosystem. A couple is never just a relationship of two. It's all the people that are in the bed with you that you're not even aware of, but it's also a, you know, who is there to support you? And I think the loss of community is really A major piece of what makes it challenging to be healthy because it means that, you know, if I can't talk to you, I can go talk to a girlfriend about certain things. There's some things that I should just not expect from you. And rather than, you know, Moses and the rock, I'll beat, I'll beat, I'll beat, and maybe water will flow. No, sometimes the water doesn't flow.

Lewis Howes 6:24 [laughs]

Esther Perel 6:24 You know, so, A is the community-

Lewis Howes 6:26 So we're expecting, we're expecting our partner to listen to us about everything all the time, as opposed to-

Esther Perel 6:32 Your partner cannot give you what the whole village or community should provide. Get the community, number one.

Lewis Howes 6:38 The community is a great tool. Sorry.

Esther Perel 6:39 Community is huge. Huge.

Lewis Howes 6:40 [clears throat]

Esther Perel 6:41 You need other people who think about you, who care about you, who pay attention to you, who compliment you, you know, the whole thing, who seduce you, the whole thing. But, uh, the, it, it needs more than one.

Lewis Howes 6:53 Before you go onto the next one, I just wanna add to that something that the reason I feel safe in my relationship with Martha is because she has incredible community. She doesn't bring me her problems first all the time.

Esther Perel 7:05 Right.

Lewis Howes 7:06 First, she talks to her mom, then her sister, then her girlfriends, then her cousins, then her aunts.

Speaker 7:10 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 7:11 Then [laughs]

Esther Perel 7:12 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 7:13 Which is amazing.

Esther Perel 7:13 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 7:14 Then it's kind of tired her out. She's like, "Okay, I don't need to talk about this anymore," right?

Speaker 7:18 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 7:19 Then-

Esther Perel 7:19 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 7:20 ... if she still needs to talk about it, she can talk to me, but I'm not-

Esther Perel 7:23 And then you say, "What did your mother, your aunt, your girlfriend-"

Lewis Howes 7:25 Exactly. I say, "What did they say?"

Esther Perel 7:26 [laughs] Say to you.

Lewis Howes 7:27 "What advice, what advice did they give you?"

Esther Perel 7:29 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 7:29 "Okay. Cool. I like that. Okay. Yeah, here's what we can do."

Esther Perel 7:31 [sighs]

Lewis Howes 7:31 But it's not, it's not coming to me first all ... Sometimes she comes to me right away with something-

Esther Perel 7:35 Right

Lewis Howes 7:35 ... and that's great, but it's not every time there's a breakdown, "I need to talk to you about this, it's like urgent," or, "I'm feeling overwhelmed and stressed."

Esther Perel 7:43 It's extremely important to diversify your relationships in

Esther Perel 7:47 your life. It just holds you. You cannot burden one person to, that, on, you know, and on top of this, this whole list that I make, this kind of m- modern definition of intimacy, right? Into me see, because I come to you, and I don't just want you to give me advice, I want you to look at me in the eyes.

Lewis Howes 8:07 Understand me fully.

Speaker 8:08 [laughs]

Esther Perel 8:08 I want you to respect me, value me, validate me, reflect back to me, and I want you to help me transcend my existential alone-

Lewis Howes 8:16 Oh, my gosh

Esther Perel 8:16 ... so that I never feel alone anymore.

Lewis Howes 8:18 Wow.

Esther Perel 8:19 Honey, can you deliver?

Lewis Howes 8:20 [laughs]

Speaker 8:21 [laughs]

Esther Perel 8:21 You know. So it's that thing. That's why I say community first because you, you, your relationship will be stronger when it doesn't stand alone.

Lewis Howes 8:31 Mm.

Esther Perel 8:32 The second thing is your relationship will be stronger when you don't treat it like a cactus. This means that you give, you bring the best of yourselves to work, and you take it to every other place, and then when you come home, you put your feet up-

Lewis Howes 8:44 Mm

Esther Perel 8:44 ... and you feel like you can take your nice clothes off, and you don't have to make an effort anymore. And here is the thing, and then we wonder why people are not having sex.

Speaker 8:53 [laughs]

Esther Perel 8:55 Modern intimacy. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 8:57 Modern intimacy.

Esther Perel 8:58 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 8:58 I'm curious, you mentioned something, we haven't gotten to tool number two yet, but we, you mentioned something about the West, and today, and, you know, uh, cell phones, and social media, and things like that, but you also mentioned, I think you mentioned religion and God at one point.

Esther Perel 9:12 Yep.

Lewis Howes 9:13 How important, you know, do you feel is religion or having God in the middle of a relationship for the Western society to thrive? Is it ... Do you see relationships that have that thrive better than a lack of God, or religion, or some type of spiritual practice?

Esther Perel 9:33 In traditional societies, but they may be right here, this is not just like you have to travel far for that, religion is a central hierarchy that tells you how to believe,

Esther Perel 9:48 how to act, how to react. It gives you the steps. Relationships in that culture are usually organized around duty and obligation. Religion doesn't ask you, "What do you feel like doing, honey?" You know, religion tells you what to do. And religion then helps you with three most important pieces. One is, how do you make sense of the unintelligible?

Lewis Howes 10:16 Mm.

Esther Perel 10:16 Every religion deals with that. The second thing is peop- religion helps you deal with suffering, not that you won't suffer, but how to bear it. And the third thing that religion helps you with is evil. Why, why, why do people act in ways that are so harmful to others? Every religion does this, and so does every social structure.

Lewis Howes 10:37 Mm.

Esther Perel 10:38 It may have a god in the midst of it or it may not. But this thing about the soulmate on an app, when you think about what is it that people mean by the one and only, that's the soulmate, is that today, and you tell me if that's not religious, I want to experience with you wholeness-

Lewis Howes 10:54 Uh-huh

Esther Perel 10:55 ... transcendence, belonging, meaning, and ecstasy, everything that we used to look for in the realm of the divine. So we still are no less religious.

Lewis Howes 11:07 Mm.

Esther Perel 11:07 We just don't call it like this, and we don't look for it in the same place. But psychedelics and everything else included, we may call it spirituality, but fundamentally, these are basic human needs, and we will look for them either here or there, but the needs won't change.

Lewis Howes 11:25 Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 11:25 [cheers]

Esther Perel 11:28 Make sense?

Lewis Howes 11:29 Makes sense. You have, uh, a lot of your work around eroticism lately has been inspiring a lot of people. I'm curious, uh, are people having less sex and are being less intimate with their sexual connection as well, and less eroticism in general?

Esther Perel 11:44 [clears throat]

Lewis Howes 11:45 And if so, is that just because they're so addicted to phones, and they're tired and exhausted, or not present?

Esther Perel 11:51 In most theaters I go, there's a lot of bad sex.

Lewis Howes 11:55 Uh-huh.

Speaker 11:55 [laughs]

Esther Perel 11:56 Which means the, the, the issue about having sex doesn't mean it's a good experience.

Lewis Howes 12:02 Mm.

Esther Perel 12:03 You can have plenty of sex and feel nothing, and you can do very little and feel a ton. So I don't wanna answer the question with are people having less sex?

Lewis Howes 12:14 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 12:14 Because people have done sex for centuries and had miserable experiences.

Lewis Howes 12:19 Yes.

Esther Perel 12:19 Women know that. Okay. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 12:25 [laughs]

Speaker 12:29 [cheers]

Esther Perel 12:30 Men have it too, but they don't always know it.

Lewis Howes 12:33 Ah.

Esther Perel 12:33 That's the only thing.

Speaker 12:34 [laughs]

Esther Perel 12:35 'Cause they've been pumped to take whatever they can get.

Speaker 12:37 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 12:42 So [laughs] ...

Esther Perel 12:45 All right, back to your question. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 12:46 Yes.

Esther Perel 12:48 So I think when I start like this, I say, "Okay, so then what's the next thought?"

Esther Perel 12:54 The next thought is my invitation for us not to think about sex as something that we do-

Lewis Howes 13:00 Mm

Esther Perel 13:00 ... but to think about sex as an experience. To not think about performance and outcome, but to think about sex as a place you go. It's a trip you take. You take it inside yourself, with another, with others. And so then the question is where do you go? What do you want to experience there? What parts of yourself do you connect with? Is it to be naughty? Is it to be, to have fun? Is it to have a spiritual union, transcendence, to be taken care of, to be d- to be, to surrender safely? Where do you go? And when you say it like that, then the next piece is sex is just a coded language for our deepest emotional needs. So because I think the... And the m- and, and this is the key for me, is that we think we're talking about sex because it speaks sex, but what it says, even if it's just hit-and-run sex, has emotional meaning.

Speaker 13:57 [laughs]

Esther Perel 13:58 You know?

Lewis Howes 13:58 What, what type of meaning does it have?

Esther Perel 13:59 Meaning, um, what you were talking about. I was afraid. I cannot imagine that your being less afraid did not translate in how you make love today.

Lewis Howes 14:11 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 14:11 Because tell me how you were loved and I will know a lot about how you make love.

Lewis Howes 14:17 Interesting.

Esther Perel 14:17 And if you say, "I was afraid to be with you. I was afraid not to be with you. I was afraid to leave you. I was afraid to reveal myself to you," well, then your sexuality took care of all of those fears.

Lewis Howes 14:28 Wow.

Esther Perel 14:29 Because our emotional history is inscribed in the physicality of sex. Now, I just took six months to create courses on sexuality because I thought how do I explain then the difference between sex and eroticism? Yeah? Because eroticism is sexuality transformed by our imagination. It's everything that gives sex meaning. Otherwise, we are animals. Animals have sex and people have an erotic mind, and in that erotic mind, they imagine a ton of stuff, bizarre stuff.

Lewis Howes 15:03 [laughs]

Speaker 15:03 [laughs]

Esther Perel 15:05 Stuff that is irrational, stuff that makes no sense, stuff that they would f- fight against during the days, completely turning them on at night. I mean, that erotic mind is the most fascinating organ that exists

Esther Perel 15:18 in us.

Lewis Howes 15:18 Why, why do humans do that so much?

Esther Perel 15:20 Ah, but we don't know, and why is it that the thing that gets you completely excited is the biggest disgust for the other?

Lewis Howes 15:27 Mm.

Speaker 15:27 [laughs]

Esther Perel 15:27 I mean, how do... It's, it's one of the b- I mean, there's a reason you become a sexologist. It's fascinating.

Lewis Howes 15:33 [laughs]

Esther Perel 15:33 Right? To figure that out, to understand how, how play, how the power of our imagination takes cares of our fear, our inhibitions, our wounds, our longings, and turns them into a coded language like dream, you know? And to which you can g- it's like when children play, you, they, you, you, you, you pretend. I mean, are you the policeman? No, you're not the policeman, but you're gonna talk to me for 20 minutes like you're the policeman.

Lewis Howes 16:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 16:04 [laughs]

Esther Perel 16:05 Or the fireman or the [laughs] you know. I'm talking about the kid now. I didn't mean to say-

Lewis Howes 16:11 There you go

Esther Perel 16:11 ... it's a sexual fantasy. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 16:13 [laughs]

Speaker 16:15 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 16:17 Oh, man, I know what your fantasy is.

Esther Perel 16:18 You know.

Lewis Howes 16:18 We're gonna go to Vegas, hit the strip and tails.

Esther Perel 16:21 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 16:21 Let's go, you know?

Esther Perel 16:22 So the goal is how do you help people not have more sex, but feel more in sex, be more present, be more engaged, experience fun, feel loved, feel desired, feel wanted? This is the idea, and all of those things, be more curious and not to have a foregone conclusion. That is training people-

Lewis Howes 16:44 Wow

Esther Perel 16:44 ... to feel alive, vibrant, vital. That's the erotic. I think that our society has spent a tremendous amount of attention to how you get people to get it done.

Lewis Howes 16:55 Mm.

Esther Perel 16:56 And they have found somewhat of a solution for the dudes.

Lewis Howes 16:58 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 16:59 And they are on a quest to find that little pill for the women, but female sexuality is defying any pill for the moment, and they can't get her to d- get the female Viagra so that she will just get it done.

Lewis Howes 17:11 Ah.

Esther Perel 17:11 And I would love to invite you to never embrace industrial policies for the erotic.

Lewis Howes 17:16 There you go. Good.

Speaker 17:17 [cheers]

Lewis Howes 17:23 [laughs] Uh, I've shared many times on my podcast, uh, I think I've shared with you in our, in our interviews as well, that I experienced sexual abuse when I was a kid.

Esther Perel 17:31 I know.

Lewis Howes 17:32 And I f- I felt like it definitely imprinted something in me that it took years to heal.

Esther Perel 17:39 Absolutely.

Lewis Howes 17:40 Um, I, you know, one in four women have some type of sexual abuse.

Esther Perel 17:46 And one in six boys.

Lewis Howes 17:46 One in six boys and men, and so, you know, 4,000 people in the room, I can imagine there was some foul play to some extent for a number of people here at some age, whether they remember it or not. And there are some who are, who are adults who just had bad sexual

Lewis Howes 18:05 experiences. Maybe it was consensual, but it was just like you said, it wasn't enjoyable. For anyone in here who's experienced any type of sexual wounds- How can they start to heal so that they can feel free in a relationship? That they can open up even more and feel safe in that intimacy and that eroticism and not feel shameful or not feel wounded or not feel guarded or, how can people start to heal sexually?

Esther Perel 18:37 There are three, this is gonna be a short answer to a question that deserves a book.

Lewis Howes 18:42 Yes.

Esther Perel 18:44 But there are three main pieces, and that I draw from the work of Holly Richmond about the recovery. One is when you are able to reclaim control, but the control is not about saying no. The control is actually about saying yes. When you, there is no greater freedom than voluntarily giving yourself over. That's the thing that is robbed from us-

Lewis Howes 19:11 Mm

Esther Perel 19:11 ... when we are coerced.

Lewis Howes 19:13 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 19:14 So it's that first piece is control. But I'm gonna repeat it. The control is often misunderstood as I have the power to say no. No, that's not, that's piece of it, that's a given. It's I have the power, I have the choice to say yes. Control. The second one is connection.

Lewis Howes 19:32 What, before you go there-

Esther Perel 19:33 Yeah

Lewis Howes 19:33 ... what does the choice to say yes mean? Yes to what?

Esther Perel 19:37 To giving myself to you. To, to l- to being with you, to trusting you, to, and to giving myself the permission to enjoy. There is no greater vengeance-

Lewis Howes 19:47 Mm

Esther Perel 19:47 ... for anyone who has experienced abuse than to reclaim control, connection, and pleasure. [audience cheering] It's, you know, it's, it's, and I like the word there is no greater vengeance because it says you didn't get the best of me. You don't get to rule the rest of my life.

Lewis Howes 20:09 Mm.

Esther Perel 20:09 You ruled those months, those years, those nights, but I reclaimed it.

Lewis Howes 20:14 Yes.

Esther Perel 20:15 And... Huh?

Lewis Howes 20:16 So let's go. [audience cheering]

Esther Perel 20:17 Great.

Lewis Howes 20:18 So let's go. [laughs]

Esther Perel 20:19 You know, so the, the choice of the, of, of the giving is that you basically allow yourself to slowly, the word is slow, you take, you stop, you breathe, you say, "Hold on," and you have someone who is completely there for you. The healing is in that you don't have, for a moment, afterwards it shifts, to negotiate making sure that I'm pleasing you-

Lewis Howes 20:46 Yes

Esther Perel 20:46 ... while I'm taking care of me.

Lewis Howes 20:48 Right.

Esther Perel 20:48 It's okay. That's the healing thing.

Lewis Howes 20:50 Okay.

Esther Perel 20:50 And then the second part is the connection, is that I don't have to dissociate from myself or from you while I'm lying there or standing there, whatever. It's that I actually know that I am here, and that I don't have to,

Esther Perel 21:04 that I am actually proud of being here, that I deserve it, that I'm entitled to it, that I'm worthy of it. All those fundamental things that are the off- offset of shame. And then the third one is that I have pleasure.

Lewis Howes 21:20 Mm.

Esther Perel 21:20 I'm not just getting it done, I'm doing it, I mean, I'm experiencing the way I enjoy, the way you enjoy. It's pleasurable. It's, it is in, filled with imagination, playfulness, curiosity, serendipity, you know? And that concept of pleasure, for me, is the greatest vengeance.

Lewis Howes 21:39 Oh, there you go. That's good. [audience cheering] I'm curious, [clears throat] show of hands if you're in a relationship currently. Show of hands if you're in a relationship currently. For the people in a relationship, what's a great question that someone, if someone desires to have deeper intimacy, eroticism, you know, deeper levels of sexual play, but they feel afraid that their partner isn't willing to express that, uh, same sentiment. W- how can they shape that conversation?

Esther Perel 22:11 Mm.

Lewis Howes 22:12 What's a question they can ask? How could they start it where they, you know, to make sure that they're bringing their partner with them on the journey without feeling bad?

Esther Perel 22:19 There's a bunch of them in here, by the way.

Lewis Howes 22:20 Uh-huh.

Esther Perel 22:20 In case you, you... Le- [clears throat] there are many. It can go, it depends first of all if we're having the conversation while we're sitting at the kitchen table-

Lewis Howes 22:29 Uh-huh

Esther Perel 22:29 ... or if we're having the conversation while we're-

Lewis Howes 22:31 In bed

Esther Perel 22:32 ... in bed.

Lewis Howes 22:32 Yeah.

Esther Perel 22:32 Or, or, you know, it, it's, I think that many conversations that are challenging are better not in bed. Leave the bed for the good experiences, you know? [audience laughs] So, um-

Lewis Howes 22:45 Before you go on, that's an agreement that me and Martha made early on, because we were, you know... I think when you're getting in a relationship, you're learning-

Esther Perel 22:52 Yeah

Lewis Howes 22:53 ... about each other, you're connecting. Oh, what's that thing that kinda made me feel weird, or I wanna know about this thing, can you explain more? And we would have conversations like at, you know, 10, 11, 12:00 at night, and I remember just saying, [sighs] "I wanna be here for you, I wanna be present, I wanna give to you, I wanna listen to you, but my brain is falling asleep right now."

Esther Perel 23:12 Right.

Lewis Howes 23:12 "It's so hard for me to, like, sit up and, like, get present and really be, like, intimate with you and, like, listen to you." And I think maybe it's more her natural way of being of just like, ah, she wants to share whenever she wanted to share, but I needed to speak up and say, "Listen, I love you, and because

Lewis Howes 23:26 I love you, I wanna give you my best-

Esther Perel 23:27 Yes, I wanna be here and I wanna give you-

Lewis Howes 23:28 ... before 10:00 at night."

Esther Perel 23:29 Yes. Yes. [audience laughs]

Lewis Howes 23:31 But after 10:00 at night, let's just be peaceful and have, like, simple conversations.

Esther Perel 23:36 Yeah. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 23:36 You know? Let's talk about what we're grateful for and, you know. [audience laughs] And, but by having the courage to speak up and create that agreement, we have alignment and we have harmony now.

Esther Perel 23:44 Right.

Lewis Howes 23:44 And I think a lot of people lack that courage.

Esther Perel 23:46 So I want to hear what you have to say. I really wanna be there, and I can't do this now. I think that what this highlights is that the person who doesn't wanna talk, there's two parts to this, whenever it is, in bed or 10:00 or... The person who doesn't wanna talk has the permission to just say, "I don't want to talk right now-

Lewis Howes 24:10 Mm

Esther Perel 24:10 ... because I won't be giving you the attention that you d- and I deserve." And the second part is whoever says, "Not now," is the one who is responsive to come back when

Lewis Howes 24:24 Ooh. [audience applauding] Yes.

Esther Perel 24:27 Do you understand?

Lewis Howes 24:28 So I can't speak right now, but let's do it tomorrow afternoon.

Esther Perel 24:32 Or, or you don't say when. You come back the next day-

Lewis Howes 24:34 Uh-huh

Esther Perel 24:34 ... and you say, "You know that conversation? I would love for us to have it." But because what happens if you don't come back-

Lewis Howes 24:40 Mm

Esther Perel 24:40 ... then the other person starts, [sniffs] "When is it gonna happen? When i- "

Lewis Howes 24:44 [laughs]

Esther Perel 24:44 And now, now I'm following you around the house, you know?

Lewis Howes 24:47 [laughs]

Esther Perel 24:48 Is this, eh, are we ever gonna talk about this stuff?

Lewis Howes 24:50 Yeah.

Esther Perel 24:50 The avoidant person, and then it becomes a whole... You, we, I think it's very important that whoever says, "I can't do it now," has the right to do it.

Lewis Howes 24:59 Yeah.

Esther Perel 25:00 Just know that if you are the one who then reengages, it builds tremendous trust.

Lewis Howes 25:07 Yes. They appreciate it.

Esther Perel 25:09 Yes. [audience applauding] So.

Lewis Howes 25:12 So-

Esther Perel 25:13 Questions to ask about sex.

Lewis Howes 25:15 Yes.

Esther Perel 25:15 What's, what's the biggest fallacy about sex that you grew up with? What's the biggest piece of [censored] people told you, you know?

Lewis Howes 25:24 [laughs]

Esther Perel 25:24 The biggest myth. What's, what, what's something that changed for you, uh, around your sexuality? Um, what's a risk that you took sexually? Um, when you love, how does it feel? And when you desire, how is it different?

Lewis Howes 25:39 What if someone doesn't like hearing about someone's sexual past?

Esther Perel 25:43 Lots of people don't. Lots of people don't. It's, uh, it sometimes can be narcissistically challenging. There was somebody else before me, and was that person better, and did you enjoy it more, and, uh, all of that. Some people love it. Some people get turned on to it. It covers the range, and it's not always one thing. Sometimes it depends about whom.

Lewis Howes 26:01 Wow.

Esther Perel 26:02 You know, on this one, I can listen, that one I don't. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 26:05 Ah. [laughs]

Esther Perel 26:07 You know, because that one came just before me, or that one, whatever. It's like, it's not a black and white, like, I'm the one who can never hear. I sometimes am the one who can never hear when you talk about those kind of stories. You respect it. Go tell your friends.

Lewis Howes 26:22 Mm.

Esther Perel 26:22 I mean, you don't pump p- p- p-, you know, inject stuff into a person who, who's not gonna, he, they are not going to do anything good with it.

Lewis Howes 26:32 Yeah.

Esther Perel 26:32 It's like, keep your stories. They're yours. They're your life. You know, monogamy no longer exists in reality, in the sense

Esther Perel 26:42 that by the ti- it used to mean one person for life. Now, monogamy is one person at a time.

Lewis Howes 26:48 [laughs]

Esther Perel 26:50 And if you used to marry in order to have sex for the first time, now you marry and you stop having sex with others.

Lewis Howes 26:56 Ooh.

Esther Perel 26:56 For many of us, anyway. So m- m- so this thing, monogamy, it only exists in, in, in fa- in fantasy in some way, you know, but not in our reality. We've had multiple partners. This is a new thing for us to deal with, new meaning about 60 years. So that doesn't mean it didn't exist before, but it was clandestine, so you didn't have to worry about the question of what about the partner who doesn't wanna hear, 'cause you would never tell it.

Lewis Howes 27:23 [laughs] Right.

Esther Perel 27:24 That's kind of what changed. Now, you know, i- if, if you're with someone, I think it's interesting to find out what threatens you. What's scary about it? Why, why not? I mean, I actually would love to hear. I, I don't wanna tell you, you know, but I do wanna hear. Yeah, but I don't-

Lewis Howes 27:41 What threatens you about what? Like-

Esther Perel 27:42 About knowing that I've had-

Lewis Howes 27:44 ... or is something, oh

Esther Perel 27:44 ... other people, that I've been with others, traveled with others, slept with others, sucked others, done everything.

Lewis Howes 27:49 [laughs]

Esther Perel 27:51 You know? That it's not you, that I, that you're not the first one, and that not everything rides on you, and that you're not gonna be the one who deflowered. And, and this is-

Lewis Howes 28:00 Right

Esther Perel 28:00 ... in a hetero context, you know? It's like, no, you're not the one that we... So it really says, this is what it threatens. It says, we are replaceable.

Lewis Howes 28:12 Mm.

Esther Perel 28:12 We are not indispensable, and we are not unique.

Lewis Howes 28:16 Wow.

Esther Perel 28:16 And in our culture of individualism, that's a slap in the face.

Lewis Howes 28:20 Yes. Wow. [audience cheering] Wow.

Esther Perel 28:24 [laughs] You know, it's that. It says, yes, there was before, and

Esther Perel 28:30 there could even be after.

Lewis Howes 28:31 Mm.

Esther Perel 28:31 We live with that. Once you, you, you were in love relationships or marriages where you got put together or you chose, and then there was a triple lock at the door and you could never leave. Mar- you know, you basically, you married once for a lifetime, and that's what it was. And if you didn't like it, people, you could always hope for an early death of your partner.

Lewis Howes 28:51 Wow. Oh, man. [laughs] Oh, man.

Esther Perel 28:53 But that was it. Once you have no longer tight knots but loose threads, you fall in love, you j- you break up, you fall in love with someone else. Most of us in the West today will have two or three marriages or adult relationships in our lifetime.

Lewis Howes 29:09 Wow.

Esther Perel 29:09 Some of us will do it with the same person, but we know that we are not the only one, and yet the whole romantic ideal is about the soulmate and the one and only, and that's the clash. Inside of us, we know it, but we pretend and we want you to promise me that I am that person and there will never be, and yet maybe there won't be after me, but there certainly was before me. And that says we are replaceable.

Lewis Howes 29:37 Wow.

Esther Perel 29:37 That's existentially... We grieve, we mourn, and we love again. Lucky for us. [laughs] But that's the threat.

Lewis Howes 29:48 What, what... You work, you work all over the world. You work with, you know, the biggest celebrities and billionaires and people that are unknown and p- and going through normal day challenges. You work with, uh, people who have been together for a long time, who have had, had affairs and have gotten back together. You work with people for a long time on these topics. Where do you feel like people have the happiest relationships in the world that you've experienced, or at least they say they do, and what do they have in common in those places where they're the, the, not that everything's gonna be perfect, but where are they the happiest?

Esther Perel 30:26 So that's a very interesting question, and by the way, I didn't answer the question about people dating who wanna be in a relationship.

Lewis Howes 30:32 We can get back to that, yes.

Esther Perel 30:34 We can come back to that. Um, yes.

Lewis Howes 30:34 Don't, don't leave us out.

Speaker 30:35 [laughs]

Esther Perel 30:35 [laughs] Didn't forget you. I, um, I don't know that it's geographic.

Lewis Howes 30:40 Okay.

Esther Perel 30:40 All right. In places where the community is really strong, which a lot of people come here from countries where you, you know, at the heart of the, of your life is this community, extended family, and all of that, you get support, you get a lot of clarity, but you often get very little freedom, which is why so many people come to America-

Lewis Howes 31:03 Mm

Speaker 31:03 [laughs]

Esther Perel 31:04 ... you know, and to New York to get that freedom. In places like in New York [laughs] where, or in pl- in very individualistic places, where at the heart of the relationship is not the community but the individual

Esther Perel 31:20 in search of a community-

Lewis Howes 31:21 Uh-huh

Esther Perel 31:21 ... you have unprecedented freedom. We've never been more free, and we've never been more alone. So I don't know a place on the planet where we are more happy. The places where people have v- have a lot of togetherness, people often yearn for separateness, for freedom, for autonomy.

Lewis Howes 31:39 It's interesting.

Esther Perel 31:39 The places where people have a lot of individuality and freedom, they yearn for more connection. They yearn to not feel modern loneliness-

Lewis Howes 31:48 Wow

Esther Perel 31:48 ... which kind of masks itself as hyperconnectivity. You can have 1,000 virtual friends and no one to feed your cat, no one to pick up a prescription at the pharmacy.

Speaker 31:58 [laughs]

Esther Perel 31:58 That's what we risk, understood in the pandemic. God forbid somebody to pick you up at the airport. Friends and friendship is not the same. So-

Lewis Howes 32:07 Yeah

Esther Perel 32:07 ... I don't know places where people are more happy geographically. What makes people more happy is to feel that they matter-

Lewis Howes 32:14 Uh-huh

Esther Perel 32:15 ... that people care about them even when they don't see them, that they take them with them inside of them, that there's, that their relationships are meaningful, nurturing, that they don't judge them, and that they also don't ignore them. So it's this kind of nice flexibility between, you know, you're there for me, but you're not, but not on the condition that I do what you want.

Lewis Howes 32:40 Right.

Esther Perel 32:41 And I have the freedom, but not that you can cancel an hour before dinner, because these days, who cares, which happens a lot-

Lewis Howes 32:50 Mm

Esther Perel 32:50 ... in this town, case in point.

Lewis Howes 32:52 Of course, yeah.

Esther Perel 32:52 You know? So this is freedom, too, like the freedom to think, "Do I have better? Is there a better deal for me tonight?"

Lewis Howes 32:59 Uh-huh.

Esther Perel 32:59 You know? The, is there... So, and this is also freedom, is that I'm so important that I no longer think about how this is gonna affect you, that you may have cooked a whole meal and I just at 7:00 tell you that I won't show up at 8:00. That makes people feel [censored] .

Lewis Howes 33:17 Yeah.

Esther Perel 33:18 So-

Lewis Howes 33:18 Lack of respect

Esther Perel 33:19 ... what makes us happy is meaning, creativity, flexibility-

Lewis Howes 33:24 Mm

Esther Perel 33:25 ... and good laughter.

Lewis Howes 33:26 Good laughter?

Esther Perel 33:27 Yes.

Lewis Howes 33:28 Yeah.

Speaker 33:28 [applause]

Lewis Howes 33:29 So it's, so it's having, having the community with flexibility-

Esther Perel 33:34 Yes

Lewis Howes 33:34 ... where it's not like you have to do what I tell you to do or otherwise we're not gonna

Lewis Howes 33:38 love each other.

Esther Perel 33:38 Yes. Which is why people have family of choice.

Lewis Howes 33:40 Mm.

Esther Perel 33:40 People create today new communities. Pe- per- people pursue polyamory as a form of community building. I mean, there's a lot of iterations of how to build community.

Lewis Howes 33:50 Yes.

Esther Perel 33:51 But it doesn't have to be always the people that you grew up with-

Lewis Howes 33:55 Right

Esther Perel 33:55 ... 'cause they're not always your best community either.

Lewis Howes 33:57 Sure. And what about the single people who have maybe struggled in previous relationships-

Esther Perel 34:03 Yeah

Lewis Howes 34:03 ... or who maybe took time for themselves, but now they want to attract and create a healthy relationship? How can they do the work for themselves so that they can really see when a person is in front of them that, oh, this is a healthy human being, let me explore this, and not just get into old similar patterns?

Esther Perel 34:21 Right. Right. [clears throat] I tend to not like, first of all, the concept of single and coupled, because today you're single and tomorrow you're not, and today you're coupled and tomorrow you're single. There's a lot much, much more fluidity these days, but what I do know is this. If I... We live with belief systems. Relationships are stories. Everyone here has a story about your relationship, and we sometimes hold on to our stories so tightly that we confuse them with the truth. If I say, "There are no good men out there," if I say, "All people are out to get you," if I say, "I'm a pathological pleaser," if I say, "People have never cared about me properly," I, these stories become belief systems that become a part of my confirmation bias.

Lewis Howes 35:14 Mm.

Esther Perel 35:15 And when we have confirmation bias, it means that I'm now going to look at you and see to what extent this is gonna reinforce my belief, and then I'm gonna disregard evidence of the rest. So check your assumptions. That's the first thing on your, on the, on the changing. What are your fundamental beliefs with which you enter relationships, and to what extent do you find yourself busy proving that they're true, which doesn't serve you much?

Lewis Howes 35:43 Right. Right.

Speaker 35:44 [applause]

Esther Perel 35:44 Number one. Number two, um, when you go out on a date, don't turn them into job interviews.

Lewis Howes 35:52 [laughs]

Speaker 35:52 [laughs]

Esther Perel 35:54 They've never seen something less interesting in their... I mean, people ask questions, and then they look to see if they have butterflies. Now, how can that work?

Lewis Howes 36:01 Oh.

Speaker 36:01 [laughs]

Esther Perel 36:03 It's mo- it's the most dull, dull ki- of encounter. This weird thing that I see has happened, but you go out to date, as this is if you get a date-

Speaker 36:13 [laughs]

Esther Perel 36:14 ... you know, because there, there are that other experiences, and then you have to come back to your life to tell them if you won the lottery or not, and you come back with your shame or with your emptiness. I, it's dreadful.

Lewis Howes 36:26 Wow.

Esther Perel 36:26 You know, there was something useful in the other model, the old model. You date- You meet somebody, you bring them to your life.

Lewis Howes 36:34 Mm.

Esther Perel 36:35 You meet them with your friends.

Lewis Howes 36:36 Yeah.

Esther Perel 36:36 You'll have a thousand data points, far more interesting than sitting in some noisy bar and trying to ask questions. And this integration, if the date doesn't work, the date is gone, and the friends are still here, and you continue your life.

Lewis Howes 36:49 Wow.

Esther Perel 36:50 So this is, is not about the building of the relationship, but it's about the, the dating itself. The next thing is that we are, we have a thing when in relationships that's very interesting. It's called fundamental attribution error. It means-

Lewis Howes 37:03 Fund- fundamental what?

Esther Perel 37:04 Attribution error.

Lewis Howes 37:06 Fundamental attribution error.

Esther Perel 37:07 Yeah. Goes like this: I am complicated and complex. You are simple.

Speaker 37:13 [laughs]

Esther Perel 37:14 When you come late, it's because you don't care.

Lewis Howes 37:18 Aha.

Esther Perel 37:19 When I come late, it's because there were circumstances in my life-

Lewis Howes 37:23 Ah

Esther Perel 37:23 ... to explain-

Speaker 37:24 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 37:25 Uh-huh

Esther Perel 37:25 ... why I am late.

Lewis Howes 37:26 Uh-huh.

Esther Perel 37:27 Mine is circumstantial.

Lewis Howes 37:29 Yeah, yeah.

Esther Perel 37:29 Yours is characterological.

Lewis Howes 37:31 You don't care about me. Yeah, yeah.

Esther Perel 37:32 You're just a slob.

Lewis Howes 37:33 Yeah.

Esther Perel 37:33 You're just a this, you're just a that.

Lewis Howes 37:35 Mm.

Esther Perel 37:35 You know?

Lewis Howes 37:36 Yeah.

Esther Perel 37:36 It's a fantastic way we have to organize the world. So that is one of those nasty things that really make relationships not thrive.

Lewis Howes 37:44 Wow.

Esther Perel 37:46 You know? Name-calling the other person, the whole thing. And then I'll ask you one other one that I think is really crucial. When you fight, because fighting is an, a major piece of relationship, it's intrinsic. Conflict is part of love and relationships, all relationships. But don't think that what matters is what you're fighting about, but always ask yourself, "What is it that I'm fighting for?"

Lewis Howes 38:10 Oh.

Esther Perel 38:12 What people fight for when they fight is usually three things. You fight for care and closeness, you fight for respect and recognition, and you fight for power and control. Who makes the decisions? Whose priorities matter more?

Lewis Howes 38:31 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 38:31 Care and co- power and control. Care and closeness, do you have my back? Can I trust you?

Lewis Howes 38:37 Wow.

Esther Perel 38:37 And respect and recognition, can you value me? Most fights you will find are about one of those

Esther Perel 38:44 three things, but that's not what we say. What we say is, "Why did you leave your shoes once again?" You know, in my, in my, in my tour, I, I have this, this couple, and they talk, they fight, they fight about the cat closet, the litter, the cat box, the, you know. And I'm thinking, "Seriously? We're gonna talk here about cat litter?"

Lewis Howes 39:05 [laughs]

Speaker 39:05 [laughs]

Esther Perel 39:05 I mean, this is an, an important session. And then I understand that when she says, "Why didn't you close the closet?" it has nothing to do with the closet. It has to do with his father, who told him all the time what to do, who stood with his foot on his neck, who never let him breathe, and this guy grew up saying, "Nobody's gonna be the boss of me." This is what he's saying when he says, "Why shall I close the closet?"

Speaker 39:26 [laughs]

Esther Perel 39:27 That's power and control.

Lewis Howes 39:29 Uh-huh.

Esther Perel 39:29 And then she grew up all alone, taking care of the whole family, really miserable situation. And when he says, "Why shall I close the closet?" "You close the closet," what does she hear? "I'm gonna be alone for the rest of my life. I've always had to do it for everybody. I took care of everyone, and this is gonna continue? No." You know, this is po- this is the underlying thing.

Lewis Howes 39:51 Wow.

Esther Perel 39:51 But people will get so caught in the closet and the cat litter, it's phenomenal.

Speaker 39:55 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 39:58 This-

Speaker 39:58 [laughs] [applause]

Lewis Howes 40:03 This is why, uh...

Esther Perel 40:06 Do you get, this is the, what are you fighting for?

Lewis Howes 40:09 Uh-huh.

Esther Perel 40:10 Ask yourself that. It will shorten your therapy hours by many.

Lewis Howes 40:14 That's beautiful.

Speaker 40:15 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 40:16 This is why, uh, me and Martha have one of the e- electronic robo, uh, cat cleaning litters.

Esther Perel 40:22 [laughs]

Speaker 40:23 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 40:23 So no one has to clean the litter, yeah. It c- it self-cleans. It's amazing.

Esther Perel 40:28 Yes, yes. These days we trust our robots-

Lewis Howes 40:30 I know, right?

Esther Perel 40:31 ... more than our partners.

Lewis Howes 40:31 It's amazing.

Esther Perel 40:31 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 40:32 The cat robot, you guys know what I'm talking about. You guys got one? Yeah, those are good, right? No one's gotta clean it. It's self-cleaning.

Esther Perel 40:37 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 40:39 They don't have that for dogs. That's, you s- gotta walk them still, you know? So, um, I wanna ask you a, a per- we got a few minutes left with Esther, and I wanna ask you a personal question. I always like to do this with you. We'll see if you wanna receive it or not, but, um, you've done a lot of work coaching others for a long time, and you've got amazing podcasts. Uh, your, your, your podcast, Where Should We Begin? is incredible. I don't know if anyone's ever heard this. Where Should We Begin?

Lewis Howes 41:05 is incredible.

Speaker 41:05 [cheers] [applause]

Lewis Howes 41:06 Uh, you've got amazing books, which we have your books out in the bookstore if people haven't gotten them yet. We've got your books here. You've got this, uh, this game that'll help you, Where Should We Begin? Anyone have this yet? This-

Speaker 41:18 [applause]

Lewis Howes 41:19 Where Should We Begin? This is an amazing game, uh, of stories by Esther Perel, where you can really connect with your partner on ideas and things like that. You've got an eroticism course as well.

Esther Perel 41:29 Coming out this week.

Lewis Howes 41:29 We'll have a link for you guys. We'll show you that in a second. Um, for, for anyone that wants to be more sexually connected in that, uh, playful way, you'll be able to tap into that. But I'm curious, with all the research and all the work you've done to help others, what in the last five years have you received for yourself or had to overcome personally in intimacy, relationships?

Esther Perel 41:54 [clears throat]

Lewis Howes 41:55 Again, you help and serve so many people, but sometimes as the coach, uh, uh, you don't get the opportunity to always self-reflect and get coached and, and work through things personally. I'm curious, is there anything in the last five years-

Esther Perel 42:07 Yes

Lewis Howes 42:07 ... that you've seen a breakthrough personally with your life?

Esther Perel 42:11 Yes, yes, it's... And I'm, half of me was so excited I have an answer, and half of me wished I didn't have to have an answer.

Lewis Howes 42:18 [laughs]

Speaker 42:18 [laughs]

Esther Perel 42:19 [clears throat] But you'll hear why. So basically, two year, uh, about when did we go to Australia? Two years ago, two and a half years ago, I came to LA on November 1st- I was with my husband and we were on our way to New Zealand. I was starting a whole tour. My kids were already waiting for us there, and basically we entered the doctor's office and the doctor said, "You ain't going on any ply- plane. You're not flying. You have 10% kidney function left."

Lewis Howes 42:51 Wow. For you?

Esther Perel 42:53 For him.

Lewis Howes 42:53 For him, wow.

Esther Perel 42:54 For him. And we knew he had kidney issues, but not that bad. Not that bad. That meant... And you know, in the United States, there are no organs because the system is set up that if you wanna be a donor, you have to specify it on your driver's license. In Belgium, where I'm from, everybody's a donor unless you specify on your driver's license that you don't wanna be a donor. So think about that, because it really, it saves lives. But now I needed to find a kidney.

Lewis Howes 43:27 Wow.

Esther Perel 43:28 And that meant I needed to let people help me, and I was at the mercy. So I began to talk to small groups of friends, just grew the circle every time a little bit. Who would like to donate a kidney? I'm not a match, my son is not a match, my other son was not gonna be able to do, and it's an amazingly humble ex- you know, experience to, to... I was, I d- had no problem asking, I have to say. I, I, I yes, I generally have no problem asking for help. I, I'm not the person who helps others but can't ask for myself. I am a help [censored] .

Lewis Howes 44:08 [laughs]

Esther Perel 44:08 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 44:09 You're not a, you don't, you don't gingerly do the eroticism-

Esther Perel 44:12 No, no

Lewis Howes 44:12 ... with asking for help. Yeah, you're not play-

Esther Perel 44:14 I, exactly. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 44:14 You're like, "Give me the help. Let's go"

Esther Perel 44:16 It's like, and I got a point where we had 10 people, 10 people who were willing to

Esther Perel 44:22 donate, but one match.

Lewis Howes 44:24 Wow.

Esther Perel 44:25 And anyway, with the match came through, it was our friend, we brought her over from Europe. Um, we created this whole ritual with friends in my house where we t- the night before they went in, where we, we, instead of it just being an organ donation, we turned it into a sacred gift.

Lewis Howes 44:41 Holy moly.

Esther Perel 44:42 We sat in a circle and talked about what is our experience in life about giving and receiving. We brought them together the next day, and then for the next months while they were recovering, basically I had all our friends, this one took them to the hospital every morning at 7:00, this one cooked, this one this, this one that. And here's the important thing. I live with a expert on community resilience. His work, his lifelong work, is about collective trauma and community resilience, but he had never experienced it himself in action.

Lewis Howes 45:14 Wow.

Esther Perel 45:16 So this is my story.

Lewis Howes 45:18 Oh, my goodness.

Esther Perel 45:19 [audience applauding]

Lewis Howes 45:21 Oh, my gosh.

Esther Perel 45:21 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 45:23 That's beautiful.

Esther Perel 45:23 I have not yet told this in public. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 45:26 Wow, that's beautiful.

Esther Perel 45:27 This is my first time.

Lewis Howes 45:28 And, and what has been the, what has been the breakthrough or the lesson for you two and a half years later now?

Esther Perel 45:33 So here's the interesting thing. There is a moment that is a lesson. At one point early on, I said, "I talked to so and so, and they said we should go see the doctor so and so," which we're going to see now in LA. And he said, "Why do you talk about this with people? I'm entitled to my privacy." Any of you who are in this room who are that person? And I said, "But come on, it's because I talk to these people that I got this name, that I now have this appointment, that this is how it

Esther Perel 46:02 works, community. I mean, what do you think, we're just gonna sit here and find a doctor who's gonna see us in less than six months?"

Lewis Howes 46:08 Mm.

Esther Perel 46:09 That's what I meant by I talk. And it's about overcoming your shame and thinking that privacy is really nice, but you will die in privacy.

Lewis Howes 46:16 Mm.

Esther Perel 46:17 [laughs] And, you know, and that you, y- if you don't wanna do it, that's okay, but let the people around you do it for you.

Lewis Howes 46:24 Wow. That's beautiful. That's amazing.

Esther Perel 46:26 [audience applauding]

Lewis Howes 46:28 And how, how's he doing now?

Esther Perel 46:30 He's great.

Lewis Howes 46:31 He's great.

Esther Perel 46:31 It's, it's like, you know, a new life. It's, uh, it's, it's, it's impressive. I mean, you know, most surgeries take things out, this one just put something in. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 46:42 Wow, that's incredible.

Esther Perel 46:43 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 46:43 And what was the biggest lesson for the, the donor?

Esther Perel 46:47 I mean, the donor, it's, uh, what's your experience is you feel like you've given life to someone.

Lewis Howes 46:52 Wow.

Esther Perel 46:52 And by the way, you live perfectly well with one kidney. So it's really when the most important moment about the donor is that at Mount, at Mount Sinai, they have every year a gathering of the donors.

Lewis Howes 47:05 Wow.

Esther Perel 47:05 Liver donors, kidney donors, and you're in a room with these people. We happen to know ours, but all of the other people, sometimes it's strangers-

Lewis Howes 47:13 Wow

Esther Perel 47:13 ... who just one day appear like angels. And you watch these people, these unsung heroes, and you just shut the [censored] up because, you know- [laughs] I don't know if I would do it.

Lewis Howes 47:25 Wow.

Esther Perel 47:25 This is the thing. Would I have done this? I, have I known people? Have I heard and I never responded? Like, it's so easy, you know, to think uh, but no, no. And you, I watch these people and I just bawled.

Lewis Howes 47:40 Wow. That's a beautiful experience. I'm so glad you shared that. Thank you-

Esther Perel 47:44 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 47:44 ... for sharing that. Um, we have a-

Esther Perel 47:46 I have a question for you.

Lewis Howes 47:47 Yeah. Uh-oh.

Esther Perel 47:48 [laughs] [clears throat] [laughs] No, because-

Lewis Howes 47:52 I'm pretty open. I mean-

Esther Perel 47:53 Because the last time you, we met, you were just, um, in the engagement, going to therapy-

Lewis Howes 48:00 Uh-huh

Esther Perel 48:00 ... working on the, and, and here you are, you know, um, what's the, y- you know, you said, "I worked on myself," or, "We have worked together," but, um, what's the part of yourself that you discovered that you didn't know existed? I have another one afterwards. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 48:28 Hmm.

Esther Perel 48:31 You can do it. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 48:34 Part of me, I've-

Esther Perel 48:34 Is that Marta whispering to you? [laughs]

Lewis Howes 48:36 All right. A part of me, I'm just trying to be present with the whole experience. Part of me I've discovered that, the part of me I've discovered that I knew it didn't ex-

Esther Perel 48:45 That I didn't know existed. The thing that has come out of me that surprises even me.

Lewis Howes 48:58 I think, um, that, uh, that I am deserving of incredible love. That's the thing I discovered about me. Yeah. [audience cheering]

Lewis Howes 49:20 Yeah. Yeah. So.

Esther Perel 49:22 Thank you.

Lewis Howes 49:23 And I think it's been a journey, uh, of, of receiving it, you know? [audience cheering]

Speaker 49:30 We love you!

Lewis Howes 49:30 Thank you.

Speaker 49:33 We love you.

Esther Perel 49:33 Shh.

Lewis Howes 49:33 But I feel like, you know, for most of my life, and I don't know if anyone can relate, it was about... I felt l- I felt loved by people at, uh, but I also, I think the traumas outweighed the memories of the love. So the traumas were bigger memories of fear, anxiety, and pain, and, like, you know, "Dan, you're safe. You're loved. You're free." And it's not like there was one person or people, it was just a, a series of events of over, over time of all the different s- series of events. You know, my, you know, sexual, sexual abuse is one of the first memories I have as a human being. And again, that kinda imprints you until you reprogram it, until you create new meaning with it and allow it to, and res- and say, "How can I use this for good," right? And, "How can I-

Esther Perel 50:25 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 50:25 ... this doesn't define me. It's a-

Esther Perel 50:26 Right

Lewis Howes 50:26 ... a thing that happened, and, and I feel at peace about it. But as a child, you know, that was there. Uh, you know, my, my parents had their, their struggles. They just really struggled. My dad was a difficult human being. As much as I loved him, he was very difficult and emotionally up and down. So there was not emotional stability from him, so therefore, there was challenge with them. And my brother was in prison for four and a half years when I was eight years old. So there was just shame and trauma within the family dynamic that, oh, my older brother, who's my hero, is in prison. I love him. Is he a bad guy? Is he a good guy? I feel he's a good guy. Why is he here? Every weekend, we would go for hours in the visiting room and be around 20, 30 convicts and their families, every week for four and a half years. And so there's traumas there. It's just, with the, the picking on, the bullying, the being dyslexic, not being able to read, unable to speak in front of an audience without being terrified, just all the series of events, I focused more on the traumas than the love. There was a lot of love, but I didn't, I couldn't feel them. And so learning how to, uh, regulate my nervous system and my

Lewis Howes 51:39 heart and my body and, and learn how to breathe with all of it, the chaos of the world, relationship challenges from the past, and learning how to say, "Oh, I am safe no matter what's happening around me. Whether I'm going through a disagreement, it doesn't mean my life is at risk. Whether someone doesn't like me, it doesn't mean I have to give in to what they're requesting. Um, you know, if I don't feel good right now, that's okay. I know I can transform it and feel good tomorrow." So learning the skills, learning the tools, and doing the deeper healing work has allowed me to feel loved. And really, I think one of the biggest fears was I lacked the courage to end relationships, so I would stay for way longer than I knew intuitively I shouldn't be in this. But I was afraid to be alone. I, I, I, I didn't know how to fully be alone and love myself alone. And I really learned how to do that, to where I don't feel like I have to give in to anyone. I'm like, "I love myself if I'm alone, and I know that God will provide me in the right direction with what I need. It's not what I want, but I know I'll be provided that." [audience applauding] And having that, having that clarity and that inner peace of, "I'm gonna be okay no matter what happens," lets me be free to be me and feel loved. And I can give myself love, and I can receive it from others also. Even if I'm not getting it from others in a moment, if I need it, I know how to give it to me in a, you know, in a spiritual way, not like a selfish, "Oh, I'm loving myself" way. And so I think learning that process while healing and creating meaning from all these memories of the past, it just gives me a lot of peace and freedom, and I never had that until really the last four years. So.

Esther Perel 53:36 Thank you.

Lewis Howes 53:36 Yeah, of course. Thank you. [audience cheering]

Esther Perel 53:43 Thank you.

Lewis Howes 53:44 Yeah.

Esther Perel 53:44 I, I think that everything you just said is part of your question, uh, it's part of the answer to the question, you know, how does one prepare oneself to be in a relationship? You know, there's often a pull in a relationship between two polarities, the fear of losing the other and the fear of losing oneself.

Lewis Howes 54:05 Yes. Yes.

Esther Perel 54:07 Fear of abandonment and the fear of suffocation.

Lewis Howes 54:09 Yes.

Esther Perel 54:10 I will leave, I will not leave you, but I will lose myself-

Lewis Howes 54:15 Uh-huh

Esther Perel 54:15 ...

Esther Perel 54:16 in order not to be alone.

Lewis Howes 54:17 Wow.

Esther Perel 54:19 Or the reverse is, I leave you all the time. I don't stick around anywhere because I'm afraid that if I hang one more day, I'm gonna get trapped. So the fear of alone and the fear of entrapment is, uh, sorry, is really at the heart of, it's one way of understanding, you know, a lot of what you're talking-

Lewis Howes 54:39 Yeah, yeah

Esther Perel 54:39 ... talking about. But knowing yourself as well as you do now, what do you think make you un- unbearable?

Lewis Howes 54:45 What makes me unbearable?

Esther Perel 54:47 Yeah, hard to live with on occasion.

Lewis Howes 54:50 [laughs] I'd have to ask Martha that. Um, I think I'm a, you know-

Esther Perel 54:56 It's a question I ask in most first sessions, by the way.

Lewis Howes 54:58 You would... Yeah, that's good. What makes me unbearable?

Esther Perel 55:00 I'm unbearably strong. What makes it hard-

Lewis Howes 55:02 Yeah. [laughs]

Esther Perel 55:03 ... to live with you?

Lewis Howes 55:05 That's interesting. I would, I mean, you would have to ask Martha, I guess, that probably, but I would think, I would say-

Esther Perel 55:08 No, the whole point is-

Lewis Howes 55:10 I know

Esther Perel 55:10 ... do you have the self-awareness? [laughs]

Speaker 55:14 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 55:15 Man.

Esther Perel 55:16 I would ask her the same question.

Lewis Howes 55:17 I would say, here's what I would say. I mean, I don't know if, I, man, I'm, this is, you can't say there's nothing unbearable about me, but it's like-

Esther Perel 55:25 No, no, leave, leave unbearable. Hard to live with.

Lewis Howes 55:27 Hard to live with.

Esther Perel 55:28 Like-

Lewis Howes 55:28 Probably, I mean, so, see, I f- here's what I'm, I'm gonna say something. I gotta do it.

Esther Perel 55:33 [laughs]

Speaker 55:33 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 55:34 I feel like I've chosen the most incredible person for me-

Esther Perel 55:37 [clears throat]

Lewis Howes 55:38 ... who accepts what most people would think is unbearable. So-

Esther Perel 55:42 No, I, I'm not talking about her.

Speaker 55:44 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 55:44 I understand. But I don't, I don't, I don't think I'm unbearable for her because-

Esther Perel 55:48 For people to work with you.

Lewis Howes 55:49 Right.

Esther Perel 55:49 For people to be your friend.

Lewis Howes 55:50 I think I have a high standard.

Esther Perel 55:52 Uh-huh.

Lewis Howes 55:52 I think I have a very high standard, um, you know, and I've learned how to, like even during our conversation, I don't know if you've noticed this, but there's been people talking and noises in the background, like for the first 30 minutes, that was driving me nuts.

Speaker 56:07 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 56:08 And the old me lit- literally would've stopped you, 'cause there was like walkie-talkies and people running around and things slamming. No one probably heard it out here, but for me, I'm like, it's not a standard that we have s- prepared for. Um-

Speaker 56:21 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 56:22 And so for me, if this was the old me, I probably would've stopped you and said, "What the F is going on?" And said, "Hey, guys, can we stop talking back there 'cause I wanna make sure we're having a great experience." And so I calm myself because I didn't go back to the old me. I remembered the future me, the vision of me-

Speaker 56:39 [cheers] [applause]

Lewis Howes 56:42 And, yeah.

Esther Perel 56:42 [clears throat]

Lewis Howes 56:43 You know,

Lewis Howes 56:45 the old me, we, we made a mistake. We, we, through the intro video, you c- no, you, no one, no one came out, right? Uh, we told you a different time, and we made a mistake, and I'm over there thinking you're about to walk out, and Matt's like, "No." Matt's like screaming at me, "She's not ready," when I'm sitting over there.

Esther Perel 57:02 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 57:02 And I was like, the old me would've been frantic. The old me would've been frantic and like, "I made a mistake. Like, oh, she's gonna be, like, mad at me that we introduced her, but she was-

Esther Perel 57:13 [clears throat]

Lewis Howes 57:14 ... we told her the wrong time. Oh, I've ruined the relationship with Esther." The old me would've been like apologizing to you for like weeks, how can I make it up to you?

Speaker 57:22 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 57:23 And-

Esther Perel 57:23 When I used to make a mistake in a session sometimes-

Lewis Howes 57:27 Uh-huh

Esther Perel 57:27 ... three weeks I'd be ruminating.

Lewis Howes 57:29 Really? Yeah.

Esther Perel 57:29 Oh, nya, nya, nya, nya, nya, nya, nya, nya, nya, nya. You know, now it's three days.

Lewis Howes 57:33 That's good. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 57:34 [laughs]

Esther Perel 57:34 I'm aiming for three hours.

Lewis Howes 57:35 That's good. That's good.

Esther Perel 57:36 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 57:37 No, but I mean, you know-

Esther Perel 57:39 I know the standard story.

Lewis Howes 57:40 Exactly. No, but I mean, right afterwards I was like, you know, this is a show. Things are gonna happen, and it's like no one's perfect. So I had think I have a high standard, but I've learned how to let things roll better. And so probably my team, you know, they would probably say the same thing. Like, "Oh, he expects so much, and he's always wanting more from us, or expects a certain level-

Esther Perel 57:58 Yeah

Lewis Howes 57:58 ... of detail." And, and, but I've learned to just be a little more casual on things.

Esther Perel 58:03 I have one more.

Lewis Howes 58:03 Yes, tell me.

Esther Perel 58:04 Because it's for everybody here too.

Lewis Howes 58:05 Yes.

Esther Perel 58:06 What makes, this is the question on eroticism, right? What makes you feel alive?

Lewis Howes 58:12 I mean, am, sexually-

Esther Perel 58:12 You can all see

Lewis Howes 58:13 ... or you mean like in life?

Esther Perel 58:14 No.

Speaker 58:15 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 58:16 I don't know. You said erotic, so I'm, I'm not gonna go there. I'm gonna keep that right there.

Esther Perel 58:20 No, alive.

Speaker 58:21 [laughs]

Esther Perel 58:21 But that, that, it, the, it, they live side by side, but it's alive.

Lewis Howes 58:25 I-

Esther Perel 58:25 You know? I don't need your sexual description.

Lewis Howes 58:26 I spoke about th- yeah, right.

Speaker 58:27 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 58:28 I spoke about this yesterday, and I truly mean this. When I am able to have a big dream on my heart-

Esther Perel 58:34 Yeah

Lewis Howes 58:34 ... that calls me, pulls me, that inspires me to, to activate and go after, when I have something that I'm like, man, I wanna create this-

Esther Perel 58:44 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 58:44 ... I wanna do this, I wanna-

Esther Perel 58:45 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 58:45 ... for whatever reason, and when I'm able to do it in serving or inspiring a lot of people in that journey, that really, like inspires me.

Esther Perel 58:52 All right.

Lewis Howes 58:53 Yeah.

Esther Perel 58:53 So that is eroticism.

Lewis Howes 58:54 Yes.

Esther Perel 58:55 You used the word creative, inspiring, dream-

Lewis Howes 58:58 Uh-huh

Esther Perel 58:58 ... imagination, energy, aliveness. That is the erotic experience, and I hope that that's what you experienced with us. Stop constantly looking at people as a product, where you evaluate them,

Esther Perel 59:12 and you evaluate yourself. You know, in our market economy, everything has become a product, we included. And so love seems to have become the moment that the evaluation of the product stops.