A Day In The Life Of A MINIMALIST (Rich Life With Less Stuff)| Joshua Fields Millburn & Lewis howes

Lewis Howes 0:00 [upbeat music]

Lewis Howes 0:04 Welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness Podcast. We've got Joshua Fields Millburn in the house. Good to see you, man.

Joshua Fields Millburn 0:10 Good to be here.

Lewis Howes 0:10 If we were, if this table wasn't between us, we'd be hugging right now.

Joshua Fields Millburn 0:12 That's right.

Lewis Howes 0:13 'Cause we're both huggers.

Joshua Fields Millburn 0:13 Definitely huggers.

Lewis Howes 0:14 We're both from Ohio.

Joshua Fields Millburn 0:16 Amen.

Lewis Howes 0:16 You're from Dayton, I'm from Delaware.

Joshua Fields Millburn 0:18 Yes. Yes, indeed.

Lewis Howes 0:19 So very similar. About an hour and 10 minutes away, I think-

Joshua Fields Millburn 0:21 Yeah

Lewis Howes 0:22 ... they, they are.

Joshua Fields Millburn 0:22 Indeed.

Lewis Howes 0:23 Have you ever been to Delaware?

Joshua Fields Millburn 0:23 I have not been through Delaware, no. I've spent a lot of time in Columbus, though.

Lewis Howes 0:27 Yeah, so it's about 20 miles north of Columbus.

Joshua Fields Millburn 0:29 Okay.

Lewis Howes 0:29 So.

Joshua Fields Millburn 0:29 Okay.

Lewis Howes 0:30 And I lived in Columbus for a little bit. And, um, you are a writer and a minimalist.

Joshua Fields Millburn 0:34 Yes.

Lewis Howes 0:34 And you've got The Minimalists blog-

Joshua Fields Millburn 0:36 Uh-huh

Lewis Howes 0:36 ... with, uh, your partner, your writing partner. And, um, you guys have created a movement, man. You guys get almost five million unique visitors a year.

Joshua Fields Millburn 0:45 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 0:45 You've got many bestselling books. Whenever you travel the country or the world, you get hundreds if not thousands of people to show up to hear you guys speak and talk about minimalism. And, um, why did you get into it? 'Cause I read your story about your mom going through a challenging experience.

Joshua Fields Millburn 1:03 Mm.

Lewis Howes 1:03 And your marriage going through a challenging experience.

Joshua Fields Millburn 1:05 Sure.

Lewis Howes 1:06 Can you tell us why you got into minimalism?

Joshua Fields Millburn 1:08 I'm 35 years old now, and, uh, about seven years ago, if we do the math there, I was 28, um, I had achieved everything I ever wanted: the six-figure salary back in Dayton. The-

Lewis Howes 1:20 It's a pretty big deal in Dayton, too

Joshua Fields Millburn 1:21 ... in Dayton, Ohio.

Lewis Howes 1:21 No one's really doing that.

Joshua Fields Millburn 1:22 [laughs] I know, right?

Lewis Howes 1:23 [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 1:24 Uh, and so I had the six-figure salary. I had the big suburban house with, with more toilets than people.

Lewis Howes 1:29 Mm-hmm.

Joshua Fields Millburn 1:29 A- and I, I had, uh, the closets full of expensive clothes, the, the luxury cars, plural. You know, all, all the stuff that was supposed to make me happy. And I didn't necessarily feel fulfilled, but I just kept... I knew I was always one promotion, one paycheck, one purchase away from achieving happiness someday in some hypothetical future that was just around the corner. And if I could get this, then I would be happy. A- and that started well, well before that. I mean, I, I grew up really poor, uh, in Dayton on, on welfare and food stamps.

Lewis Howes 2:07 Mm.

Joshua Fields Millburn 2:07 And we didn't have a lot of money, and there was a lot of drugs and alcohol i- in the house. And it was, you know, a dysfunctional household-

Lewis Howes 2:15 Right

Joshua Fields Millburn 2:15 ... before that word dysfunctional was cool. And, and so-

Lewis Howes 2:19 [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 2:20 So, so we, we grew up really poor, and I said, "I don't, I don't wanna live this life," right? And so by age 18, I, I, I circumvented the whole college path and just went and got a sales job. And I realized-

Lewis Howes 2:33 Didn't go to school.

Joshua Fields Millburn 2:33 No. No.

Lewis Howes 2:34 Okay.

Joshua Fields Millburn 2:34 Yeah. I, I just reali- I almost dropped out of high school. And I realized that, that I, if I worked six or seven days a week, 60, 70, 80 hours a week, you could make good money.

Lewis Howes 2:47 Absolutely.

Joshua Fields Millburn 2:48 Even as a 19-year-old, right? You're, you're, you're in sales, and I was making $50,000 a year by age 19 in Dayton, Ohio. And you're like, "Okay." But then I was, noticed that I was spending $65,000 a year.

Lewis Howes 3:02 [laughs] Right, right.

Joshua Fields Millburn 3:03 And I had my first experience with debt at, at, at age 19. And I said, "Oh, okay. Well, I thought $50,000 a year would make me happy."

Lewis Howes 3:10 But not, not student loan debt, a different type of debt.

Joshua Fields Millburn 3:12 Right. Right.

Lewis Howes 3:13 [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 3:13 Yeah. It was, it was credit card debt.

Lewis Howes 3:15 Yes.

Joshua Fields Millburn 3:15 It was just consumer debt, right? You know, there's, uh, there's $12 trillion in, in consumer debt in our country right now.

Lewis Howes 3:21 Wow.

Joshua Fields Millburn 3:21 12 trillion. I-

Lewis Howes 3:22 That's not including student loans.

Joshua Fields Millburn 3:25 No, that, that, part of that is student loans. So, so, so student loans, mortgages, cars, credit cards. You know, the, the average American has, uh, uh, four credit cards in his or her wallet.

Lewis Howes 3:36 My gosh.

Joshua Fields Millburn 3:37 The, the, uh, one in 10 Americans has 10 or more active credit cards in his or her wallet.

Lewis Howes 3:44 One in 10 Americans has-

Joshua Fields Millburn 3:45 Has 10 or more

Lewis Howes 3:46 ... 10 or more.

Joshua Fields Millburn 3:46 Yeah. I had 14. And, and so, so I continued to climb that corporate ladder because I, I realized that, that, you know what? $50,000, I thought it was gonna make me happy, but it's not. I'm spending 65. Maybe I need to adjust for inflation, right?

Lewis Howes 4:01 Sure. Sure.

Joshua Fields Millburn 4:01 So and, yeah, I s- and when I started making 65,000, of course I-

Lewis Howes 4:05 That's not-

Joshua Fields Millburn 4:05 ... was spending 80,000.

Lewis Howes 4:06 That's not enough.

Joshua Fields Millburn 4:07 And it's, it's never enough, right? And so by the time I was making six figures, I was spending even better than that. So I had massive amounts of debt. I had six figures worth of debt, not counting my mortgage. If you add my mortgage in there, it was about, about half a million dollars in debt. And, and I felt overwhelmed. And so I kept trying to pacify myself wi- the same way many Americans do, with stuff, the accumulation o- of stuff to try to fill this void that I felt inside. But of course, that didn't fill the void. It, it basically widened the void. And so I felt more discontent and stress and overwhelm. And so I was working more, and I forsook the things that were, that were most important to me, right? Now, I said that certain things were important to me. I said my health was important, right? But I, I weighed-

Lewis Howes 4:51 When did you work out, right? [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 4:52 Right. I weighed 80 pounds more than I weigh now.

Lewis Howes 4:54 Wow.

Joshua Fields Millburn 4:55 Uh, and I said my relationships were, were important to me. But really, I was spending most of my time with those tertiary relationships, the, the, the, the networking buddies, the executives, the coworkers.

Lewis Howes 5:06 Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 5:07 And, and there's nothing wrong with those people. I mean, many of them were great people, but they didn't share the same values, uh, that I shared. And, and because of that, I wasn't allocating time for the people closest to me, my, my wife or, uh, to my family or my closest friends, because I figured, "Oh, they'll understand," right? I'm off being successful. By age 27, I was the youngest director in my company's 140-year history. I had 150 retail stores that I was responsible for.

Lewis Howes 5:36 Wow.

Joshua Fields Millburn 5:37 Uh, I know that's really ironic with the whole minimalism thing now-

Lewis Howes 5:39 Sure

Joshua Fields Millburn 5:39 ... the, the 150 retail stores. But I was on this, this-

Lewis Howes 5:43 Which company was this?

Joshua Fields Millburn 5:44 It was a telecom company in the Midwest.

Lewis Howes 5:46 Cool.

Joshua Fields Millburn 5:46 Yeah. And, uh, so I was, I was going through, I, I, I was just going through the motions of continuing to climb the ladder. And I, there were these guys who I really aspired to be like, and I had this whole plan laid out for myself, right? I was gonna be a, a vice president by age 32, a senior vice president-

Lewis Howes 6:01 Wow

Joshua Fields Millburn 6:02 ... by age 35, a C-level executive by age 40, and then you're set, right? But as I climbed this ladder, I got closer to these guys and realized that many of them were kinda miserable. ... they were on their third marriage. I, I, I, my boss had his second heart attack. I worked with a guy who was 30 years old, he was three years older than me, who had his first heart attack at age 30.

Lewis Howes 6:26 What?

Joshua Fields Millburn 6:26 And, and so of course what I tell myself, "Well, I'll be different," right? "I'm not gonna be like those guys." But if you follow the same recipe, you're going to get the, the same pie that-

Lewis Howes 6:38 Exactly

Joshua Fields Millburn 6:39 ... uh, uh, that, that they've baked.

Joshua Fields Millburn 6:41 And so-

Lewis Howes 6:41 [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 6:41 ... I realized, you know what? I, I need to make some changes, but I don't know what. And then in 2009, when I was 28, my, my mother died-

Lewis Howes 6:50 Mm

Joshua Fields Millburn 6:50 ... and my marriage ended, both in the same month.

Lewis Howes 6:54 Holy cow.

Joshua Fields Millburn 6:55 And, and these two events forced me to look around and start to question what had become my life's focus. And I realized I, I was so focused on so-called success and achievement, and especially on the accumulation of stuff, the trophies of, of success. Like, look at me, I have, you know, two Lexuses, and I have this-

Lewis Howes 7:14 Right

Joshua Fields Millburn 7:14 ... I have that, I have the bigger house. And, and, and-

Lewis Howes 7:17 The golf membership or whatever, you know?

Joshua Fields Millburn 7:18 Yeah, yeah, the racket club membership, actually.

Lewis Howes 7:20 There you go. [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 7:21 Yeah. And, a- and so I ha- I had these, these things. And here's, here's the thing I wanna get across, though. There's nothing inherently wrong with stuff. We, we all need some stuff. The problem isn't consumption. The problem is this compulsory consumption, buying things because that's what we think we're supposed to do. We, we've been sold this meme of the American dream. If you get this, then you will be happy, as if there is a template for happiness. And in fact, I think that's one of the, the bigger problems is, is we are chasing happiness. A- for the longest time, that's what I did. I chased happiness when... And that forced me to, to, to really forsake what was important. In fact, I was at a point in my life when I was very narrowly successful, right? Like, I had the job title.

Lewis Howes 8:12 Right.

Joshua Fields Millburn 8:13 But I wasn't, I wasn't broadly successful, and it's because I, there wasn't a lot of meaning in what I was doing. We all have to earn a living. I, I understand that. But, but I was so focused on, on just accumulating more money a- and status and identity, my whole life was wrapped up in that identity. I mean, when, when, when you meet someone, what's one of the first questions they ask you?

Lewis Howes 8:37 Well, they ask you, "What do you do?"

Joshua Fields Millburn 8:38 Yes.

Lewis Howes 8:39 I don't ask that question. [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 8:40 Exactly. Right? It, well, and, and so when I was, you know... And I had, the, the, the bigger problem for me is I had this i- impressive job title, right? 'Cause when you think about that question, like, what, what does it mean? Like, it's, it's such a broad question. What do you do? Well, I drink water. I walk down the street.

Lewis Howes 8:55 [laughs] Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 8:55 I go to concerts. I read books. Oh, you're asking me, where do you work? How much money do you earn? What's your job title, so I can compare you to me on the socioeconomic ladder?

Lewis Howes 9:06 Yes.

Joshua Fields Millburn 9:06 Now, now we don't posit the question that way, because i- if we did, we'd, we'd sound like a real jerk. If I, if I, if I said, "Well, uh, how much money do you make and where do you work?" you'd be like, "Well, wait a minute. Like, that's, that's a weird question. Why are you asking me?" So instead, we just say, "What do you do?" And then we're supposed to recite our job title and then spend 15 minutes talking about something we may or may not be passionate about.

Lewis Howes 9:26 Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 9:27 And so I, I, I did an experiment when I was back in the corporate world and wh- when I said, "Okay, people keep asking me, like, 'What do you do?' And I need to untether from this identity, and the only way for me to untether from this identity is to let go of that answer." And so when, wh- I did this for a year, and when people said, um, "What do you do?" I'd say, "I'm really passionate about writing." See, for, for the past decade, I had written fiction, and that was really the thing I was passionate about, I really enjoyed doing. Now, notice I didn't say, "I'm a writer," because then you start getting the accusatory questions, right? You get the, "Oh, really? Um, you're a writer. Uh, who's your publisher? Who's your agent?"

Lewis Howes 10:06 Right, right.

Joshua Fields Millburn 10:06 "Have you written anything I would've read?"

Lewis Howes 10:08 Or, or you, "Oh, so you're saying you don't have a job?" [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 10:11 [laughs] Right. Right. And, and so I would just in, instead of talking about the, the noun, I'm a writer, I would talk about the verb, what I'm actually passionate about doing, the, the creating. A- a- and for me, that was writing. And I'd flip the question around. Instead of saying, "What do you do?" I'd say, "What are you passionate about?"

Lewis Howes 10:27 Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 10:27 And that would change the whole trajectory of our, of our conversation. Someone would say, "Oh, well, I'm passionate b- about snowboarding." They might be an accountant-

Lewis Howes 10:33 Right

Joshua Fields Millburn 10:33 ... but they're passionate about snowboarding, or they're passionate about playing basketball, or whatever it may be.

Lewis Howes 10:37 The conversation is much richer at that point.

Joshua Fields Millburn 10:39 Yes. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 10:40 You guys can connect and relate in different areas.

Joshua Fields Millburn 10:42 Yes.

Lewis Howes 10:42 I always ask, "What are you excited about?"

Joshua Fields Millburn 10:44 Yes.

Lewis Howes 10:44 "Right now in your life, what are you most excited about in your life?"

Joshua Fields Millburn 10:47 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 10:47 And that brings up the same thing, usually about what they're passionate about.

Joshua Fields Millburn 10:50 Yes.

Lewis Howes 10:50 "Oh, I'm excited about this passion project of mine."

Joshua Fields Millburn 10:52 Uh-huh. Something I, something I'm working on-

Lewis Howes 10:54 Yeah

Joshua Fields Millburn 10:54 ... or, or, you know, something that my family's going through, my kids are doing, whatever. It's something that I'm excited about. And sometimes it can be your vocation. That's okay.

Lewis Howes 11:03 Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 11:03 Uh, I, I just talked about an accountant earlier. Uh, our accountant back in Missoula, Montana, he is passionate about accounting.

Lewis Howes 11:09 Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 11:09 Now, I don't know how someone could personally be passionate... I could not be-

Lewis Howes 11:12 People love numbers. They love, like, figuring out the solutions, you know, solving the problems.

Joshua Fields Millburn 11:16 Now, uh, uh, my guess is, knowing you, y- you, it'd be very difficult for you to be passionate about accounting, right?

Lewis Howes 11:22 I would not love it.

Joshua Fields Millburn 11:23 Yeah. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 11:23 No.

Joshua Fields Millburn 11:23 And, and same for me. I, it'd be hard for me to be passionate about accounting. Now, there are other people who are passionate about horseback riding, right? I couldn't see myself being passionate about horseback riding either.

Lewis Howes 11:33 No.

Joshua Fields Millburn 11:33 And that's okay. The, the, the key is that, like, there isn't one thing that we were born to do with our lives, right?

Lewis Howes 11:40 Right.

Joshua Fields Millburn 11:40 Uh, you, you weren't born to be an astronaut or a yoga teacher or an accountant.

Lewis Howes 11:44 Right, right.

Joshua Fields Millburn 11:44 Uh, the, the truth for me was that what I was doing as a vocation didn't necessarily align with my values, with my beliefs, with my interests, with my desires. And, and as I started to figure out what my values were, I realized that what I was doing with my time didn't align with the person I wanted to become-

Lewis Howes 12:06 Sure

Joshua Fields Millburn 12:06 ... the person I aspired to be.

Joshua Fields Millburn 12:08 And so after those two events happened with me, my, my mother died and my, my marriage ended, I, I stumbled across this thing called minimalism. And it started with, with a guy named Colin Wright. Uh, we were talking before. He, he's a guy who, who moves to a new country every four months, and everything he owns fits in his backpack. And I admired that, but that's not something I wanna do. I don't wanna be the peripatetic writer who travels everywhere and that was really cool. But what I admired about it is he said this thing called minimalism allowed him to focus on what he was passionate about. For him, that was travel, and so he writes about his travel experiences. And, and that was really cool, but I didn't want to just be this traveling guy that-

Lewis Howes 12:49 Little ad that just goes around. Yeah

Joshua Fields Millburn 12:50 ... Yeah. And so maybe that's what minimalism was, I thought at first. But then I, I stumbled across guys like, like Leo Babauta and his wife, Eva, and their six kids.

Lewis Howes 12:58 Right.

Joshua Fields Millburn 12:59 And I said, "Oh, there's minimalist families. Wait a minute. They're-"

Lewis Howes 13:02 They live in society.

Joshua Fields Millburn 13:03 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 13:03 They're not just, like-

Joshua Fields Millburn 13:04 Right

Lewis Howes 13:04 ... wandering around. Yeah. [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 13:05 Yeah. The, the, a- and the, you know, they're not off the grid or anything. They actually-

Lewis Howes 13:08 Yeah

Joshua Fields Millburn 13:08 ... live in, in the city, right?

Lewis Howes 13:10 They have a laptop. They have a cellphone.

Joshua Fields Millburn 13:11 Yes.

Lewis Howes 13:11 Right? [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 13:12 Yeah. And, and, um, although they don't have to. The, the, the question is, like, what actually adds value to your life? And I realized that, that I owned a lot of stuff. Did, did you know the average American household has 300,000 items in it?

Lewis Howes 13:25 No way.

Joshua Fields Millburn 13:26 300,000. But I, I think most of us aren't hoarders. Uh, we, we just, we hold on to a lot of stuff. We hold on to all these supposed memories, right? And I know that's what I was doing. That's what my mom did when I went to deal with her stuff. And, and I realized that, you know what? Um, some of this stuff actually adds value to my life, but I don't know what. And so I, I started small, because I had attachment to so many things in my life. I'd given so much meaning to my stuff.

Lewis Howes 13:53 Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 13:53 And I said, "I need to try to get rid of some of this." Like, some of it's in the way. I don't know why, what's actually adding value. And so, uh, over the course of, of 30 days, I just started let-- I said, "I'm gonna let go of one thing a day, one item a day each day for 30 days. And what, what would happen if that, if, if I did that?" Well, of course, you're not gonna put a big dent in 300,000 items.

Lewis Howes 14:12 [laughs] Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 14:13 Now, I-

Lewis Howes 14:13 299. [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 14:14 I, yeah, I, I, I probably still had, I, I had 300,000 items, but I was a very well-organized hoarder.

Lewis Howes 14:21 [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 14:21 So, like, it wasn't, I wasn't a candidate for the TV show, necessarily.

Lewis Howes 14:24 Sure, it was detailed, in boxes-

Joshua Fields Millburn 14:26 Yeah

Lewis Howes 14:26 ... and labeled and-

Joshua Fields Millburn 14:27 Yeah, there was an ordinal system of bins and, and-

Lewis Howes 14:29 [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 14:29 A- and, and so yes, there was a lot of stuff that was very well-hidden, basically. It was organized hoarding. And so I said, "I'm gonna get rid of an item a day for 30 days." Well, of course, once you get momentum, I, I got rid of way more than 30 items-

Lewis Howes 14:43 Sure, sure

Joshua Fields Millburn 14:43 ... in the first 30 days.

Lewis Howes 14:44 I don't know if I'd do that, 'cause I would, I'd just wanna get rid of all of it at once.

Joshua Fields Millburn 14:47 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 14:47 I'd be like, "Let's just purge it all-"

Joshua Fields Millburn 14:50 Uh, yeah, so-

Lewis Howes 14:50 "... and go through this room-"

Joshua Fields Millburn 14:51 No-

Lewis Howes 14:51 "... you know, right now."

Joshua Fields Millburn 14:52 Well, well, that, that's actually great, because, so I spent about eight months getting rid of, so from that beginning, it took me about eight months to radically simplify my life.

Lewis Howes 15:00 Wow.

Joshua Fields Millburn 15:00 And I, over those eight months, I got rid of about 90% of my possessions.

Lewis Howes 15:04 Still 50,000, however, whatever, you know. [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 15:05 Yeah, right. It's like, I don't, I don't know what's left. It's certainly not like Colin, who owns, you know, 52 items, and they all fit in his backpack or whatever. Uh, for me, it was like, you could come to my house today, and you're gonna be like, "Oh, the, this guy's really tidy." You're not gonna say, "Oh my God-

Lewis Howes 15:17 I got it

Joshua Fields Millburn 15:17 "... this guy's a minimalist," right?

Lewis Howes 15:18 Yeah, yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 15:19 And, and what adds value to my life today may, may be different five years from now or whatever. Like, when I first em- embraced minimalism, I was 28 years old. Seven years later, I, I have a three-year-old. I have a partner. You know, our needs are appreciably different from when I was, you know, a single guy sort of out living on, on my own. Although, it's not, my values aren't different.

Lewis Howes 15:38 Yes.

Joshua Fields Millburn 15:38 A- and I th- I think that's what's important, is identifying, what is important in my life, and what is going to, what items, what material possessions are going to augment that experience a- and not get in the way?

Lewis Howes 15:50 Yes.

Joshua Fields Millburn 15:51 A- and, and so letting go allowed me to figure out the paradox of, of minimalism, is I get far more value from the material items I own now th- than by watering them down with hundreds of thousands of items.

Lewis Howes 16:03 Right. It's kind of like you were the original Magic Guide of Tidying Up.

Joshua Fields Millburn 16:07 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 16:07 Right? Like, that book came out, like, a year ago, didn't

Lewis Howes 16:09 it?

Joshua Fields Millburn 16:09 Yeah, yeah. It ca- well, we, when Ryan and I were, we were on a book tour for our second book, um, uh, Everything That Remains, and I think it came out right around that same time, and-

Lewis Howes 16:18 That thing blew up, man

Joshua Fields Millburn 16:19 ... it, it really did. And I think a lot of the professional organizers really get it, the, th- that scene of i- I always say the easiest way to organize your stuff is to get rid of most of it.

Lewis Howes 16:28 Yes. [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 16:28 And I th- I, I think professional organizers understand that. I think the problem that we run into with us amateurs, and me being an amateur organizer, uh, uh, w- what I, what I've r- realized is that most people just try to cover up the problem w- by organizing. The, and this is what I did. I, I'd go to the container store and buy all these containers and have this whole system for hiding stuff in my basement.

Lewis Howes 16:51 But you didn't need the stuff in the first place.

Joshua Fields Millburn 16:52 Exactly, right? And so, so, uh, when I, when I simplified my life, people at work started coming up to me and saying, "You know what? You, you seem less stressed. You, you seem so much calmer." And I didn't tell, I didn't jump up and say, "Look at me, I'm becoming a minimalist, and all of you need to too." I, I wasn't out proselytizing.

Lewis Howes 17:09 [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 17:09 Like, I'm, I wasn't out trying to convert anyone to minimalism.

Lewis Howes 17:12 Right.

Joshua Fields Millburn 17:13 I- in fact, I, I, I'm still not trying to convert anyone to minimalism. I just wanna share a recipe that's worked really well for me, in hopes that some people can tweeze out a few ingredients and, and apply it to their own life in, in some way.

Lewis Howes 17:24 That's cool.

Joshua Fields Millburn 17:25 And so, so after I let go, you know, my best friend of 20-something years, a, a guy named Ryan Nicodemus, uh, we worked together. We climbed the corporate ladder together. We knew each other since we were fat little fifth graders. A- and he came to me one day, and he said, "Why the hell are you so happy?" And, and I said, "Let me talk to you about this thing called minimalism." And I explained how I'd let go and, and sort of purged 90% of my possessions over the last eight months. And he's like, he was like you. He, 'cause he was like, "You spent eight months getting rid of your stuff? Like, that sounds really awesome. I wanna do it now."

Lewis Howes 17:58 Yeah, right. [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 17:58 And, and I'm like, "Okay." He's like, "How can I become a minimalist, like-"

Lewis Howes 18:02 In a week.

Joshua Fields Millburn 18:02 Yeah, it-

Lewis Howes 18:03 In a weekend

Joshua Fields Millburn 18:03 ... pretty much. And, and so he c- he came up with this idea called a packing party Um, where the easiest way to start, start to deal with your stuff, and you know this, whenever you move, you, you, you, you realize, like, "Oh, I've got a lot of stuff to move," right? So he, he boxed up everything in his 2,000 square foot condo in Dayton, Ohio. A- and I mean, literally everything. Three, he had three bedrooms, two bathrooms, two living rooms. A single guy with a cat and two living rooms, and he's like, "Why do I have all this stuff?" So he boxed up everything as if he were moving, put it all in his second l- second living room, stacked halfway to his 12-foot ceiling, and, and said, "Okay, over the next three weeks, I'm going to unpack only the items I truly need. And I don't know what's in all these boxes for sure, but..." You know, so that first night he's unpacking a toothbrush and some toothpaste, and then clothes for work the next day, a bed and bed sheets. He even packed up his furniture, like-

Lewis Howes 18:54 Wow

Joshua Fields Millburn 18:54 ... everything as if he were moving. And over the course of, of, of about three weeks, he, uh, had unpacked about 20% of his stuff, but 80% of his stuff was still in boxes.

Lewis Howes 19:04 My gosh.

Joshua Fields Millburn 19:04 And he looked at this mountain of stuff. I remember going over to, to his condo, and he's like, "Josh, I don't even remember what's in most of these boxes. All, all of these things that I worked so hard for over the last, uh, decade, it's supposed to make me happy, but it's not doing its job." And so he donated or sold all of it. A- and about a month later, he came to me and he said, "I think some other people would find value in, in, in this message. You know, and Josh, you've, you've written for a while. Uh, do you think you could write some nonfiction stuff?" And so we started a website. We didn't even know it was called a blog at the time. Uh, you know, I, I was-

Lewis Howes 19:40 This is your partner now.

Joshua Fields Millburn 19:41 Yeah, yeah.

Lewis Howes 19:41 Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 19:41 So, so Ryan, uh, R- Ryan said, "Yeah, I think we could share this." And so we, we started theminimalists.com, and, and that was, that was about six years ago. And, uh, and I think the cool thing is people started to find value in, in that message. We were still working in the corporate world at the time and, and still letting go, and realizing that you could start to, you could live a, a regular life without, without, uh, you know, being a, a hermit or a nomad-

Lewis Howes 20:09 Sure, sure

Joshua Fields Millburn 20:10 ... or an ascetic or a monk or something like that.

Lewis Howes 20:12 A backpacker, yeah, yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 20:12 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 20:13 Why do you think humans are, are so wired to be dissatisfied?

Joshua Fields Millburn 20:20 I think... Uh, so, so they did an experiment with some, some chimpanzees a few years ago, and, and it's interesting because if you look at, uh, give, if you give a chimpanzee a banana, it's going to eat a banana, right? I mean, it's just, it's wired to do that. Um, we're all wired to eat, right?

Lewis Howes 20:38 Right.

Joshua Fields Millburn 20:39 A- and if you give it enough bananas to eat and share, it will eat and share the bananas. If you give it a hoard of bananas, it will try to kill other chi- chimpanzees that try to take it. And I think we're wired-

Lewis Howes 20:54 If you give, like, a chest of them, like a ton of them.

Joshua Fields Millburn 20:56 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like, like if you fill this room here with, with bananas, it will try to fight off and kill other chimpanzees.

Lewis Howes 21:02 That wanna take one.

Joshua Fields Millburn 21:03 Yeah, yeah.

Lewis Howes 21:04 Why?

Joshua Fields Millburn 21:05 Uh, uh, we don't know why e- exactly, but, but we, but we know that, that there's something about this overabundance, uh, of, of stuff, uh, that, that this scarcity, this idea of scarcity comes, starts to come into play. A- and, and we, you know, literally will hoard, and I think it's the same psychology with, with material possessions. And I think-

Lewis Howes 21:30 People do that with money, too, and other things, yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 21:32 Uh, yeah, and, and there's nothing wrong with money. I mean, I'm certainly not allergic to money.

Lewis Howes 21:36 For sure. Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 21:36 Um, uh, uh, but, but it's no longer the primary driver for doing what I do. A- a- and I no longer worry about money the same way I used to because I'm much more intentional with the decisions that I make with my money. And, and I mean, I think we all have to pay the bills, and, and so sometimes that requires a nine to five-

Lewis Howes 21:56 Right

Joshua Fields Millburn 21:56 ... or starting a business or, or, or doing something that may not be your a- ultimate passion project. But for me, anything I do to earn money, it has to align with my values. A- and i- if it doesn't, then I have to be willing to walk away from that and find, find something else.

Lewis Howes 22:14 Sure, sure. Why do you think we keep buying stuff even though we know it's not gonna fill the holes?

Joshua Fields Millburn 22:19 I think advertising does a very good job of making us desire things and making us, uh-

Lewis Howes 22:26 Feel not good enough unless we have it or not

Joshua Fields Millburn 22:29 ... hungry for a food we didn't know existed.

Lewis Howes 22:31 Hm.

Joshua Fields Millburn 22:32 And, and, and so we, the average person sees 5,000 advertisements a day.

Lewis Howes 22:37 Oh.

Joshua Fields Millburn 22:37 So that's what? A million or so a year. A- and, and we, we are indoctrinated by these things. A- and, and so I don't think advertisements are inherently bad, but I think seeing that many messages, the, the, that many discrete bits of input every single day is inherently problematic. And so the, the, the question is, how, how can I turn the volume down on that-

Lewis Howes 23:01 Mm-hmm

Joshua Fields Millburn 23:02 ... s- so that I can make more deliberate decisions with my attention? 'Cause it's not just money we're spending. It's time, it's attention. These are other resources that are-

Lewis Howes 23:11 Yes

Joshua Fields Millburn 23:11 ... even more important than money.

Lewis Howes 23:13 Right. What about the internet? How do you think the internet's increased consumerism?

Joshua Fields Millburn 23:18 I, I, I think, well, technology, it, it's weird because it seems a bit quixotic to think that we can fix our, our problem of, of consumption with a different type of consumption.

Lewis Howes 23:30 [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 23:30 Right? A- and so, um, uh, a friend of mine named Cal Newport, are you familiar with, with Cal?

Lewis Howes 23:36 Sounds familiar.

Joshua Fields Millburn 23:36 He, he wrote a book called So Good They Can't Ignore You.

Lewis Howes 23:39 I've heard of it.

Joshua Fields Millburn 23:39 Um, and he wrote a book recently called Deep Work. Uh, he just had a TEDx talk come out this past month called Quit Social Media.

Lewis Howes 23:46 Hm.

Joshua Fields Millburn 23:47 And he advocates for just quitting, getting off social media altogether. Now, I, uh, full disclosure, I'm on social media. Um-

Lewis Howes 23:53 Mm.

Joshua Fields Millburn 23:53 But, but he talks about how, how they've aggregated our attention. Uh, uh, social media is, is, is engineered to aggregate our attention, to give us these, these ephemeral bursts of pleasure, these likes and retweets and shares and whatever else, to, to keep coming back for more. It's tantamount to having a, a slot machine.

Lewis Howes 24:16 Mm-hmm.

Joshua Fields Millburn 24:17 Uh, uh, because you're constantly pulling to see if you've won. The problem is, though, it's now we're carrying around the slot machine in our pocket all day. And, and constantly pulling that lever to see if I've, I've won more attention. And so I don't think that's inherently bad either, but I think it can be problematic if that is the purpose that we use it for. I, I, I'm not as, uh, uh, as strict as someone like Cal would be. Uh, I find value in social media. I use it as a, as a platform to disseminate information-

Lewis Howes 24:45 Yeah

Joshua Fields Millburn 24:45 ... a- and to communicate with others. But I, I, I can see how it would be problematic for many people, including myself.

Lewis Howes 24:52 Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 24:52 I, I've done some pretty interesting experiments over the last six years.

Lewis Howes 24:55 Uh-huh. What are the experiments you've done? You've gone without a phone for a few months, right? You-

Joshua Fields Millburn 24:58 I, I did. I, so, so when I first, uh, I first became a minimalist, I said, "Okay, I'm gonna work hard on paying down my debt." So I moved to this tiny $500 a month apartment in Dayton.

Lewis Howes 25:09 Wow.

Joshua Fields Millburn 25:09 Um, and I just started going crazy on paying off all my debt, right?

Lewis Howes 25:13 Right.

Joshua Fields Millburn 25:13 So I said, "I don't wanna be tied to this lifestyle anymore. In order to be, to not be tied to this career, I need to be able to pay off this debt." And so, yeah, I went on the, the ramen noodle diet.

Lewis Howes 25:23 Wow.

Joshua Fields Millburn 25:23 Not, not, not literally-

Lewis Howes 25:24 Sure, sure

Joshua Fields Millburn 25:24 ... but, but, but-

Lewis Howes 25:25 The $1,000 a month-

Joshua Fields Millburn 25:27 Yeah, yeah

Lewis Howes 25:27 ... lifestyle.

Joshua Fields Millburn 25:28 Yes. Yeah, uh, uh, spent as l- as little as I could so, so that I could get out of debt and no longer be tied to the same obligations, right? And, and so, uh, w- when I moved into that apartment, I didn't hook up internet for the first few days 'cause it was like a weekend or whatever. And I'm like, "Huh, I wonder if I could go h- 30 days without internet at home. 30 days without internet." I said, "I, I'm gonna try it. It'll give me something to write about," right?

Lewis Howes 25:51 Sure, sure.

Joshua Fields Millburn 25:52 Um, that was, it was five years ago, and I have not had internet at home since. And, and I run a online business.

Lewis Howes 25:58 Holy cow.

Joshua Fields Millburn 25:59 A- and so, so I could tell you the reason I don't have internet is-

Lewis Howes 26:03 What about your phone? You've got internet there.

Joshua Fields Millburn 26:04 Uh, sort of. Sort of. But, but I, I found a way around that too, 'cause I wanted to be, I, I wanted to be able to write about that.

Lewis Howes 26:09 Wow.

Joshua Fields Millburn 26:10 Uh, so, so it was the most productive month of my life-

Lewis Howes 26:13 Wow

Joshua Fields Millburn 26:13 ... when, a- and those 30 days. And I'm like, "Okay, I'm not gonna get it back next month either." And so it just sort of continued from there. And it's not to say that I won't ever have it again someday. I, I, we have an office in, in Missoula, Montana, so I, I drive to the office and, and it's a place where I can schedule it.

Lewis Howes 26:27 You work there.

Joshua Fields Millburn 26:27 Yeah, I can work there. And, and I have an office at home too, and, uh, but there's no internet there. But that, that, that's a place for me to create.

Lewis Howes 26:34 But you're probably so focused when you're at home writing.

Joshua Fields Millburn 26:37 It, it's deep work. It, it, it's full concentration, so-

Lewis Howes 26:39 You're in the flow.

Joshua Fields Millburn 26:40 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 26:40 Not distracted by social media likes and-

Joshua Fields Millburn 26:42 Yes

Lewis Howes 26:43 ... who left a comment here and-

Joshua Fields Millburn 26:44 Exactly. And so, so yes, I do have a phone at home, but I keep it o- as soon as I get home, first thing I do is put it on its charging stand. And in fact, I, I, I do, I go out of my way to, like, keep it away from my person. You, you, you were asking me if I had a picture of something earlier. I had to, like, go into my bag and dig my phone out because I, I try to be as present as I can.

Lewis Howes 27:03 Mm.

Joshua Fields Millburn 27:03 And I, I'm constantly failing at that, and that's okay. Like I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm not anyone's Yoda.

Lewis Howes 27:09 Sure, sure.

Joshua Fields Millburn 27:09 I, I, I, I fail at it all the time, but I learn so much from it. So when I got rid of, uh, internet, it was, uh, maybe six months earlier, I'd got rid of TV at home, and, and-

Lewis Howes 27:20 That's right

Joshua Fields Millburn 27:20 ... and realized that, you know, that wasn't adding as much value as I thought it was at the time.

Lewis Howes 27:23 It was disconnecting you from your partner or your-

Joshua Fields Millburn 27:25 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 27:26 ... your children or whatever.

Joshua Fields Millburn 27:27 Yeah, yeah. And, and so I, I was so, uh-

Lewis Howes 27:29 So no TV.

Joshua Fields Millburn 27:30 I had no TV, and then I did no internet. And then for two months, I got rid of my cell phone. And you learn about a special kind of loneliness. Like once- [laughs]

Lewis Howes 27:38 [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 27:40 'Cause I mean, think about this. You've removed all your pacifiers, right? 'Cause it was my first-

Lewis Howes 27:44 You have to be with your thoughts.

Joshua Fields Millburn 27:45 Y- yeah, you have to be with your thoughts. But, but then, and you have to be with, you know, people, and you have to make plans in a different way. And also, here was the interesting thing. You learn a lot about your friends too because, because if you're gonna meet someone for lunch and, and-

Lewis Howes 27:57 Yeah, I'm running a few minutes behind.

Joshua Fields Millburn 27:58 Yes.

Lewis Howes 27:58 I know you text everybody quick. Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 27:59 Right. I couldn't do it anymore.

Lewis Howes 28:00 You were just there and you're on time. You're waiting. Oh.

Joshua Fields Millburn 28:02 Yeah, and you learn how-

Lewis Howes 28:03 What's happening?

Joshua Fields Millburn 28:03 There aren't, aren't any payphones anymore. I mean, there, there was one in Dayton-

Lewis Howes 28:07 Not that

Joshua Fields Millburn 28:07 ... where I lived. I had to, you know, walk in the rain four or five blocks to get there.

Lewis Howes 28:10 And you don't even have quarters anymore-

Joshua Fields Millburn 28:11 No. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 28:11 ... so you're like, "How do I play?"

Joshua Fields Millburn 28:12 What do I do? Yeah, and so-

Lewis Howes 28:14 You're not remembering the numbers anymore-

Joshua Fields Millburn 28:16 No

Lewis Howes 28:16 ... 'cause they're all plugged into our phone.

Joshua Fields Millburn 28:17 Absolutely.

Lewis Howes 28:17 I used to remember every number.

Joshua Fields Millburn 28:18 Yeah, yeah.

Lewis Howes 28:19 Growing up, you know, like your five friends-

Joshua Fields Millburn 28:21 Uh-huh

Lewis Howes 28:21 ... your home phone, you know.

Joshua Fields Millburn 28:22 Yeah. There's a great John Mayer lyric. He, he talks about the shape of calling. Like I no longer remember the shape of calling home. A- and-

Lewis Howes 28:29 The shape of calling home, huh?

Joshua Fields Millburn 28:30 Yeah, 'cause you've got, you know, you remember-

Lewis Howes 28:31 Yeah, yeah

Joshua Fields Millburn 28:31 ... you used to remember these numbers, like on, on the keypad there.

Lewis Howes 28:34 Yeah, but the, or the, the f- the little dial ringer. You remember those back then?

Joshua Fields Millburn 28:36 Oh, yes. Yeah, the, the rotary phone.

Lewis Howes 28:38 Yes.

Joshua Fields Millburn 28:39 Yes.

Lewis Howes 28:39 That was me, like age six or seven.

Joshua Fields Millburn 28:41 [laughs] Yeah, totally. I grew up with one of those.

Lewis Howes 28:43 Yep.

Joshua Fields Millburn 28:43 Uh, so, so yeah, I, I realized that, that once I remove all these pacifiers, that I had to f- I had to fill the void with something else that was more, maybe more meaningful. And so I'd rediscovered these things called books. They're amazing, let me tell you.

Lewis Howes 28:59 Right, but you're so minimalist you didn't have books.

Joshua Fields Millburn 29:01 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 29:02 So you rented them from the library.

Joshua Fields Millburn 29:04 Yeah. No, I wrote them. And then I wrote-

Lewis Howes 29:06 You wrote, then you wrote them.

Joshua Fields Millburn 29:06 [laughs] No, I, I mean, so I, I rediscovered time to, to create more. I rediscovered time. And then the cool thing is minimalism isn't about deprivation for me. Like I'm not trying to deprive myself of these things. I'm not an ascetic. I don't wanna go live in a cave somewhere. I do wanna live in our society. I just wanna do so deliberately.

Lewis Howes 29:23 Mm.

Joshua Fields Millburn 29:23 And so I decided to bring a phone back into my life. And when I did, I, I used it more deliberately. No longer do I have Facebook on my phone. No longer do I, uh, have email on my phone. I, um, uh, I use-

Lewis Howes 29:35 It's a phone.

Joshua Fields Millburn 29:35 Yeah, I use it to make phone calls.

Lewis Howes 29:37 [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 29:37 I send text messages. GPS, that's how I got here today-

Lewis Howes 29:39 Yeah, sure

Joshua Fields Millburn 29:39 ... was GPS. Uber, I, I took an Uber to get here.

Lewis Howes 29:42 Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 29:42 And so, so the technology is there and, and I allow it to, to add value to my life. But when it starts getting in the way, I, I try to check myself because the phone isn't the problem. I'm the problem. A- and once I realized that, I knew I c- ch- I could change that by just being more deliberate with, with how I use it.

Lewis Howes 30:00 Mm.

Joshua Fields Millburn 30:01 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 30:01 It's powerful, man. Um, wow. So wh- when did you move then? So you moved to Montana a few years ago?

Joshua Fields Millburn 30:10 Yeah, so, so Ryan and I started theminimalists.com, uh, December of 2010. Um, I left the corporate world in 2011, and, uh, at the end of that year, so a year after we started the website, we published our first book, which is called Minimalism: Live a Meaningful Life. And it was sort of about the five higher order values, health, relationships, passion, growth, and contribution. You know, the, the, the ability to, to focus on, I mean, not just our, our, our basic needs, food and shelter and, and all these other things, which is important, but going beyond that. Minimalism wasn't just about the stuff for me, right? It, it, that was the initial bite at the apple that changed everything. But I think we get so caught up in just the stuff, we th- we, we think decluttering is just the point. I think anyone watching or listening to this could go rent a dumpster, throw all their crap in it, and be utterly miserable.

Lewis Howes 31:04 Mm-hmm.

Joshua Fields Millburn 31:04 Be- because you've just removed the pacifiers. The, the point isn't just getting rid of the stuff and coming home to an empty house and sulking.

Lewis Howes 31:11 [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 31:11 That, that, no one wants that.

Lewis Howes 31:13 Right.

Joshua Fields Millburn 31:13 I don't wanna tell anyone to get rid of your book collection or, or whatever. Like, whatever adds value to your life, I encourage you to hold onto. But question what adds value to your life. W- what is adding value? And so, so when I had let go of the stuff and started writing about it, people found value in it, and people started asking about s- about writing a book. And so we, we did, and, uh, wrote that book, Minimalism, and we went out on the small book tour. Over the course of about a year, we did 33 cities. So we'd go out for a week, and then we'd come back. And, um, we were in our tour bus, which was Ryan's 2004 Toyota Corolla.

Lewis Howes 31:43 Nice.

Joshua Fields Millburn 31:43 And, um, we, we'd hit the road and we'd go out-

Lewis Howes 31:45 Just you two, or you bring a-

Joshua Fields Millburn 31:47 Yeah. Yeah, it was j- it was just us two. And we'd go to these bookstores and, and, um, yeah, we'd have these little events. And that was back in the day when y- we were lucky if, if eight people showed up, it was a big event, right? And, and that was so great. I mean, it was almost m- it was more like a listening tour. I remember our fourth tour stop, we were in Knoxville, Tennessee, uh, and there was no one there.

Lewis Howes 32:08 [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 32:08 There was literally no one there. We're sitting there at this, at this bookstore.

Lewis Howes 32:12 [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 32:13 And we're like, "Okay, I guess this is it." It was like a little coffee shop there. And like, "All right, I'm gonna get a coffee to go. We're driving back to Dayton tonight."

Lewis Howes 32:19 No way.

Joshua Fields Millburn 32:20 Yeah, and as we're leaving, this, this guy who, and, and his girlfriend go, "Hey, you're the minimalists." And I'm like, "Yes, we are." And-

Lewis Howes 32:28 [laughs] We were just setting up.

Joshua Fields Millburn 32:29 Yeah. [laughs] He's like, he's like, "Hey, I've, uh, we drove like three hours to come see you."

Lewis Howes 32:33 Wow.

Joshua Fields Millburn 32:34 And it ended up being this awesome one-on-one session. Uh, this guy who had a lot of sort of issues in his life. And it was a perfect opportunity to have this, this almost like one-on-one coaching with this guy that we wouldn't have b- been able to have other, uh, otherwise if, you know, if dozens of people had shown up, or hundreds or thousands of people had shown up. And we learned a lot from that, that tour.

Lewis Howes 32:53 Mm-hmm.

Joshua Fields Millburn 32:53 And, and just going out on the road and listening to people, and hearing their stories, and, and telling our stories to figure out what stories resonated, which ones didn't. And that's actually how we wrote our, our second book. So at the end of, of that, that tour, uh, we finished in, in Vancouver, BC. We were driving back to Dayton, Ohio, and we had to drive through Missoula, Montana. And, and, like, driving through the state of Montana, it's like a 10-hour drive. I mean, it's this massive state. We woke up in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. It was gorgeous, and it just got more gorgeous throughout the day. And Ryan looked over at t- at me, and he goes, "Hey, man, we've gotta come back out here to write the next book." So we, we rented a cabin in the middle of nowhere, Montana, near Butte. And, and on the side of a mountain for, you know, it was like 800 bucks a month to be in the middle of this, you know, gorgeous wilderness. And we wrote that second book, or the first draft of it. And, uh, y- we'd wake up every day, and it's negative 28 degrees outside. And it's a conducive environment for writing. I'll just say that. You can-

Lewis Howes 33:50 Yes, stay in and write.

Joshua Fields Millburn 33:51 Yeah, you can do push-ups and write, and that's about it, right?

Lewis Howes 33:53 [laughs] That's super.

Joshua Fields Millburn 33:54 Yeah, yeah. And so, so, uh, we moved out to Montana, and I found, we found ourselves sort of gravitating toward, um, Missoula, Montana, which is, uh, the city there. A- and, uh, when we were writing that book, it w- it really came from all the, the stories that resonated with the people from that last tour. Like, okay.

Lewis Howes 34:10 Mm-hmm.

Joshua Fields Millburn 34:10 This story really resonated, and we're talking about the packing party, or we'd, we'd talk about, you know, my mom's death and me going through her, her material possessions and trying to let go of sentimental items. And, and so we learned what resonated, what didn't. The things I thought were very profound, they landed on deaf ears. And the other things that w- the packing party was sort of an afterthought, and people, that really resonated with people.

Lewis Howes 34:33 Wow.

Joshua Fields Millburn 34:33 And so w- what we learned was that, that here are the things that, that people find value in. Let's, let's share more of that. And so, yeah, we, we ended up in Montana about four years ago. And, uh, yeah, we've been there ever since.

Lewis Howes 34:46 What do you think brings you the most fulfillment today?

Joshua Fields Millburn 34:50 I always look back to those five values. A- and, and so if my health is, is lacking, then I need to repair that. If-

Lewis Howes 34:59 That's the first thing.

Joshua Fields Millburn 35:00 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 35:01 Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 35:01 Yeah, and I, I think they're all, they're all tied, though. If my relationships are, are lacking, it means... If I'm not giving to them, or if I'm not getting what I need from those relationships, then I have to question why, right? A- and so if I'm not creating, you know, if I'm not passionate about-

Lewis Howes 35:16 Yeah

Joshua Fields Millburn 35:16 ... this, this creativity or this craft, then, then I'm lacking. If I feel like I'm not growing or if I'm not, you know, giving to the world in, in a meaningful way, th- then any of those areas, if any of those areas are empty, right, that, that's the weak link, and I, I need to go back and fix that.

Lewis Howes 35:31 Sure, sure.

Joshua Fields Millburn 35:32 A- and, you know, it- it's constant. Every day I'm, I'm, I'm trying to look at how do I serve these values in my life? And if, if I'm not serving them, then I need to be honest with myself and find a way to fix that.

Lewis Howes 35:43 How does someone... Is there, like, a minimalist assessment test that people can take-

Joshua Fields Millburn 35:47 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 35:47 ... where you can ask a number of questions to yourself and, uh, you know, where your stuff is owning you as opposed to you are owning your stuff-

Joshua Fields Millburn 35:55 Sure

Lewis Howes 35:55 ... and you're in control of your life? Is there, like, an, a few questions you could ask people listening that's like-

Joshua Fields Millburn 35:59 Yeah. There's one question in particular-

Lewis Howes 36:01 Okay

Joshua Fields Millburn 36:01 ... that I would ask. How might your life be better with less? It's a counterintuitive question at first, right? Because we're always thinking about more. How do I get this? How do I bring this into my life? How do I achieve that? How do I take on this new responsibility, this new project? How do I get this promotion? Um, but how might my life be better with less? That's a different question. And for me, at first, it was less commitment, less financial obligation. You know, for me, I've had the, all that debt. And so the first benefit for me was regaining control of my finances.

Lewis Howes 36:41 Mm-hmm.

Joshua Fields Millburn 36:41 And, and developing a plan to deal with that. And, and to do that, I had to be less focused on, on the stuff. I had to sell a lot of stuff. I had to, to stop a- accumulating and buying things, because the price tag is one cost, but then there's all these other costs as well. You have to have the space to store it or to clean it or to take care of it or to charge it or, or, or to whatever. Put gas in it. You know, all of the, these things. A- and so, so by asking that question, "How might your life be better with less?" you identify what the benefits are for you. And they're, they're different for everyone.

Lewis Howes 37:12 Mm-hmm.

Joshua Fields Millburn 37:13 I, I had a, a 93-year-old come to our last event in San Diego, and she came up to... at the, in the hug line afterward, and she goes, "I just want you to know that..." Uh, she brought, uh, three generations of daughters, so her, her, her daughter, her granddaughter, and her great-granddaughter with her. And she goes, "I just want you to know that I'm 93 years old, and I am finally simplifying my life for the first time."

Lewis Howes 37:36 Wow.

Joshua Fields Millburn 37:36 Uh, we had a 13-year-old show up in Omaha, Nebraska, and I'm like, "Hey, buddy, did, did your mom drag you out here? I see your mom, you're with your mom here." He's like, "Are you kidding me? I dragged her out here."

Lewis Howes 37:47 [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 37:47 "Because I thought maybe my parents could find some, some value, some benefits in this minimalist message."

Lewis Howes 37:52 That's cool.

Joshua Fields Millburn 37:53 And what I learned is the benefits are gonna be different for everyone. But we're all asking the same question. It's, how do I live a more meaningful life? And, and part of that has to do with r- just changing our focus to-

Lewis Howes 38:04 Yeah

Joshua Fields Millburn 38:04 ... figuring out what's important.

Lewis Howes 38:05 Yeah. Yeah, I would say, I mean, I bet if you came into my place right now, and you looked around, you wouldn't think I'm a minimalist, but I really don't accumulate a lot of things.

Joshua Fields Millburn 38:13 I would think you're intentional.

Lewis Howes 38:14 Yeah, I'm very intentional.

Joshua Fields Millburn 38:15 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 38:15 Like, it's all... You know, I don't wanna have a blank room in here-

Joshua Fields Millburn 38:18 Sure

Lewis Howes 38:18 ... so I have some stuff on the, you know, it's intentional things.

Joshua Fields Millburn 38:20 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 38:21 But this is, like, pretty much it. When I moved to LA, I had two bags-

Joshua Fields Millburn 38:25 Uh-huh

Lewis Howes 38:25 ... a laptop, and a guitar.

Joshua Fields Millburn 38:26 Minimalist. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 38:27 I didn't have anything else. I, in Ohio, I got rid of all my stuff, moved to New York City, and I had two bags when I came here to LA. And I really don't need much.

Joshua Fields Millburn 38:35 Mm.

Lewis Howes 38:35 You know, I've got an, uh, an older car. It's a $4,000 car that I bought.

Joshua Fields Millburn 38:39 Sure.

Lewis Howes 38:40 But I'm not looking to buy new things.

Joshua Fields Millburn 38:42 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 38:43 I would say I'm looking to have impactful things-

Joshua Fields Millburn 38:46 Yeah

Lewis Howes 38:46 ... and, and updated equipment that I can use to produce better quality content.

Joshua Fields Millburn 38:50 They're tools though, right?

Lewis Howes 38:51 Yes, tools. Exactly, right.

Joshua Fields Millburn 38:52 Yeah, and I think, I think that's how a lot of the s- the things are

Lewis Howes 38:54 And, and this is my home and my office.

Joshua Fields Millburn 38:55 Yes, yeah.

Lewis Howes 38:56 So it's like I'm maximizing my space.

Joshua Fields Millburn 38:58 For sure.

Lewis Howes 38:58 And I, you'll talk to my assistant, I purge probably every few months, 'cause I get a bunch of, like, just packages and bags, like, constantly. Like, gear from people always sending me stuff.

Joshua Fields Millburn 39:09 Right.

Lewis Howes 39:09 And I'm, I'm just trying to purge it as often as I can-

Joshua Fields Millburn 39:11 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 39:11 ... to make my closet simple and clean and organized.

Joshua Fields Millburn 39:14 Mm.

Lewis Howes 39:14 Just is minimal, but not to the extreme. You know what I mean?

Joshua Fields Millburn 39:18 Yeah, and I, for me, minimalism isn't a radical lifestyle. It's a practical lifestyle, and, and my version of minimalism is going to look different from your version.

Lewis Howes 39:26 Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 39:26 It's gonna look different from Leo's version, who has six kids. H- his will necessarily-

Lewis Howes 39:31 Yeah

Joshua Fields Millburn 39:31 ... look different. I'll tell you this, Leo is the ultimate minimalist. He washes his shirts in the sink still.

Lewis Howes 39:36 No way.

Joshua Fields Millburn 39:36 Now, he doesn't make his family do that, but he does it as a ritual a- a- and to, to show that he can. He doesn't have to have this attachment to the, to these things. And I find-

Lewis Howes 39:45 Hey, I like the washer and dryer. I'm not-

Joshua Fields Millburn 39:47 Amen. [laughs] No, I, I-

Lewis Howes 39:48 I like simplicity

Joshua Fields Millburn 39:48 ... I have a washer and dryer. I do too, but he finds value in that ritual.

Lewis Howes 39:52 Sure, sure.

Joshua Fields Millburn 39:52 And, and so that, that's different for him. And, and what I've realized is that as a minimalist, everything I own serves a purpose or brings me joy. So, so whether it's i- serving a purpose like the equipment that you have here.

Lewis Howes 40:05 Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 40:05 That all, those are all tools. Or, or they bring you joy, like aesthetic joy. Like, you have, you know, these photos and artwork and things on, on, on the walls and, and on hangers and things like that. That, that serves an aesthetic purpose as well.

Lewis Howes 40:17 Yes.

Joshua Fields Millburn 40:17 And, and so it brings you joy in some way. And, and so I think that's great. I don't want people to deprive themselves or think that's necessary. Now, you can temporarily deprive yourself. I think sometimes that's, that's helpful. If you remove something from your life for a temporary period of time, like I did with the cell phone, to figure out, when I bring it back in, does this actually add value? And if so, how can it add the most value to my life?

Lewis Howes 40:37 Mm-hmm. Yeah. What do you think someone could, what do you think people listening could do to get started? Whether they wanna say, "I wanna get rid of some things," or, "I wanna be more minimalist or more intentional."

Joshua Fields Millburn 40:46 Sure.

Lewis Howes 40:46 Is there one post that we could refer them to?

Joshua Fields Millburn 40:49 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 40:49 Is there-

Joshua Fields Millburn 40:50 Yeah

Lewis Howes 40:51 ... a s- a set of three things they can start with? What's something they can do?

Joshua Fields Millburn 40:53 Yeah. So start with, start with that question.

Lewis Howes 40:54 Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 40:54 And that one's so important s- because you need to identify what the benefits are for you. We all know instinctually how to declutter your closet, right?

Lewis Howes 41:01 Right.

Joshua Fields Millburn 41:01 The, so you're never gonna see me and Ryan write about, "Here are the 67 ways-"

Lewis Howes 41:04 Sure, sure, sure

Joshua Fields Millburn 41:04 ... "for you to declutter your closet."

Lewis Howes 41:05 Go get The Magic Guide of Tidying Up.

Joshua Fields Millburn 41:07 R- right, yeah. Well, I'm not, I'm not-

Lewis Howes 41:08 It is that

Joshua Fields Millburn 41:08 ... opposed to that, but it's just not, it's just not my thing. We don't write the how to stuff. We write the why to stuff. A- and, and so it's important for me to understand the why to. But from, some tips f- for how to, I mean, I'll, I'll give you s- three things really quickly. Number one i- is 30-day minimalism game. You can find that at theminimalists.com/game. Uh, here's how it works really quick.

Lewis Howes 41:28 We'll, we'll have it linked up too for you guys. Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 41:30 Yeah, great, if you wanna throw it in, in the show notes, that'd be awesome. Um, but basically, I think decluttering personally, just for me, is kind of boring. Uh, and so we found a way to make it a little more fun with some friendly competition. So at the beginning of a month, you partner up with someone.

Lewis Howes 41:43 Mm-hmm.

Joshua Fields Millburn 41:43 A friend, a family member, a coworker, your arch nemesis, whoever it may be.

Lewis Howes 41:47 [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 41:48 And you decide to let go of some stuff over the course of the month. Now, on the first day of the month, it's real easy. You each get rid of one item. Second day of the month, two items. Third day of the month, three items. So you get that momentum you need. It starts off real easy, but by mid-month, it's much more difficult. 15th day of the month, I have to get rid of 15 items.

Lewis Howes 42:03 15.

Joshua Fields Millburn 42:04 20th day of the month, 20 items. And whoever goes the longest wins. So you can wager whatever you want. Uh, you can bet a dollar, bet a l- uh, you know, a, a lunch or whatever you wanna bet. Um- If you both make it to the end of the month, you both won though, because you've both gotten rid of 500 items, and it's a really good start.

Lewis Howes 42:19 All right.

Joshua Fields Millburn 42:20 And, and I find that we've had tens of thousands of listeners share stuff on, on social media now. So if you go to that post, you can find a link and see a bunch of pictures of people sharing-

Lewis Howes 42:28 That's cool

Joshua Fields Millburn 42:28 ... online as well. So having that other person there to help keep you accountable, and you keep them accountable, makes it more enjoyable, but also sustains the process a lot longer.

Lewis Howes 42:37 How does someone go through this, say you get rid of 100,000 things or whatever, 'cause you think it's a cool idea.

Joshua Fields Millburn 42:42 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 42:42 But how do you do it so you don't re-accumulate those things?

Joshua Fields Millburn 42:46 Sure.

Lewis Howes 42:46 So there's a deeper why that keeps you maintaining it.

Joshua Fields Millburn 42:50 Yes. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 42:50 How does someone-

Joshua Fields Millburn 42:51 So, so-

Lewis Howes 42:52 ... do that?

Joshua Fields Millburn 42:52 Well, I, I did a few things. So the, the question that was really important to me early on was, does this add value to my life, when I was letting go of stuff. But then, uh, as an experiment, uh, the beginning of 2011, so this is, uh, about a month after we had started our, our website, I needed something to write about. And so I decided, well, we're the minimalists, I'm going to be the authority on this, so I need something to write about. I'm not gonna buy anything this year as a New Year's resolution, except for food and hygiene products, right? And so I'm not gonna buy any new material possessions for a year.

Lewis Howes 43:23 No clothes.

Joshua Fields Millburn 43:24 Yeah, no clothes, no electronics, no-

Lewis Howes 43:26 No new gear, no new tools for your business.

Joshua Fields Millburn 43:27 Yeah, nothing. Nothing.

Lewis Howes 43:29 Not even for your business.

Joshua Fields Millburn 43:29 Yeah, not even for the business, right? Uh, I'm just gonna do this for a year to see what happens.

Lewis Howes 43:34 Food and toiletries.

Joshua Fields Millburn 43:36 Yes. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 43:36 Okay.

Joshua Fields Millburn 43:37 Man, was that way more difficult [laughs] than I thought. Oh, my goodness. Especially with, you know, Amazon at your fingertips and everything else. It, it, it becomes nearly impossible. But what I did, it took about four months to really retrain myself. 'Cause I'd be at a store and I'd see, you know, I really wanna buy this glass and I think it's beautiful. I'm gonna buy this. Oh, wait, I can't buy the... I'm, I'm doing this experiment. And then, you know, I'd w- be at the store a week later getting some, you know, deodorant or whatever. And I, I'm, "Oh, I really wanna... Oh, that's right, I can't." And, oh, and about, at about the four-month mark, I started-

Lewis Howes 44:09 Oh, I want to get this gift for someone.

Joshua Fields Millburn 44:11 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 44:11 Oh, I can't.

Joshua Fields Millburn 44:11 I can't, yeah.

Lewis Howes 44:12 Go write them a letter instead or-

Joshua Fields Millburn 44:13 Yeah, yeah

Lewis Howes 44:14 ... or make them a gift or-

Joshua Fields Millburn 44:15 Or buy an experience. You know, concert tickets or-

Lewis Howes 44:18 Oh, yeah

Joshua Fields Millburn 44:18 ... or spend time with someone. So, so I, I still spent money on experiences, but not on material possessions. And so, but by the end of four months, I would walk by this glass and say, "Oh, that's a really nice glass. I really like that." And that was it.

Lewis Howes 44:31 Mm.

Joshua Fields Millburn 44:31 I didn't feel the urge to continue to consume. And so when I w- that, that feeling has stuck around for the last five years. I would encourage anyone who is eager to, to try to limit the things they're bringing into their life to set up some sort of rule like that. Now, you don't have to be as extreme as that. But even now, f- for me, with any big purchase that's over $250, I have to wait at least a month i- in order to, to make that purchase.

Lewis Howes 44:54 Think about it, and then a month later, then you-

Joshua Fields Millburn 44:56 Yeah

Lewis Howes 44:56 ... purchase it if you still want it.

Joshua Fields Millburn 44:57 Yeah, if I still want it, if I still need it, if I still think it's going to add value to my life.

Lewis Howes 45:01 Wow.

Joshua Fields Millburn 45:01 And that forces me to continue to contemplate that. Um, a- a- and so I'm asking that question, I've asked that question so much, does this add value to my life, that it's no longer an intellectual exercise, it's an emotional one. Is this gonna add value to my... I'm going to know.

Lewis Howes 45:14 You know in a moment.

Joshua Fields Millburn 45:15 Yeah. And you have to be honest with yourself. But also holding onto the thing. Just because I get value from this today doesn't mean I'll get value from it six months from now.

Lewis Howes 45:23 It's like a tattoo. Maybe it's a nice idea right now.

Joshua Fields Millburn 45:25 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 45:25 But in a year or two, are you gonna be glad you had it?

Joshua Fields Millburn 45:28 Who, who is Jenny? [laughs]

Lewis Howes 45:29 Oh, my gosh.

Joshua Fields Millburn 45:31 Yeah. No, it's, uh, but i- I think it's, uh, it, it's the same thing, like i- is this going to continue to add value? And if not, I have to be willing to let go.

Lewis Howes 45:38 Sure.

Lewis Howes 45:39 What, um, you have a new documentary that you guys put together over the last couple years, right?

Joshua Fields Millburn 45:44 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 45:44 And it just came out. Can you share a little bit about it?

Joshua Fields Millburn 45:46 Yeah. It, it came out in theaters, uh, at the end of May. And, uh, basically, you know, for the last six years it's been the Josh and Ryan show, and that's been great. We've been able to share our recipe a- a- and millions of people have found value in that, and, and people have liked our books and, and our blog posts and now the podcast.

Lewis Howes 46:03 Yes.

Joshua Fields Millburn 46:03 And, and, and so that's been great. And so what I've learned over the last five, six years is, uh, I started off just wanting to be an author. Initially it was a literary fiction author, and then I started writing nonfiction and really enjoyed writing the memoir and, and, and went through that whole process. I've become much more vehicle agnostic over the last six years. And I, I don't know if you know the stat, but, but 55% of adults in the United States read less than one book a year. So if you write, if you just write books-

Lewis Howes 46:35 Mm

Joshua Fields Millburn 46:35 ... it doesn't matter how awesome your book is, half of the, uh, the adult audience is, uh-

Lewis Howes 46:40 Won't even read one of those books

Joshua Fields Millburn 46:41 ... uh, adult popula- yeah, and your, your book doesn't have any, any chance. So the, the people who read, you know, 10 or more books is a very slim percentage. But many people will, will, uh, use other mediums to consume different bits of content.

Lewis Howes 46:55 Mm-hmm.

Joshua Fields Millburn 46:55 And so it, whether that's the, the... We've, we've done two TEDx talks. Uh, we've done, you know, the blog or the books. We wanted to find ways to, to communicate and reach people, and show people that it wasn't the, this, this radical lifestyle. So we went out and we interviewed minimalists from all walks of life. Minimalist entrepreneurs a- and minimalist families, tiny house enthusiasts. Uh, uh, do you know Graham Hill?

Lewis Howes 47:18 Mm-mm.

Joshua Fields Millburn 47:18 Uh, he's, uh, from New York. He, he, so he does this, um, uh, he, he runs a website called Life Edited, but he has this, this 420 square foot apartment that we have in, in the documentary. And it sleeps seven. You can have dinner for 12.

Lewis Howes 47:34 What? [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 47:34 It has a, an office in it, and it's because it's all modular. So, like, this table comes through the floor.

Lewis Howes 47:40 Right.

Joshua Fields Millburn 47:40 These beds fl- I mean, and it's unbelievable. And he utilizes-

Lewis Howes 47:44 Every-

Joshua Fields Millburn 47:44 ... this 400, every square inch. I mean, it's unbelievable. And so, so, uh, and that, that may not be appealing to everyone.

Lewis Howes 47:51 Right.

Joshua Fields Millburn 47:51 I- in fact, the, we, we have one lady, Tammy Strobel, who-

Lewis Howes 47:54 It's only got one bathroom. That's a challenge. [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 47:55 Yes, it does. Yeah, that, that is definitely a challenge.

Lewis Howes 47:57 12 for one bath, yeah. [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 47:58 And so, um, w- w- we had Tammy in there. She had her 183 square foot tiny house. I don't wanna live in a tiny house personally, but I admire people who-

Lewis Howes 48:07 Yes

Joshua Fields Millburn 48:08 ... want to live in that and then find a way to execute it. And so we interviewed those people. I interviewed a, a minimalist architect in Tucson, Arizona, who had this really cool- ... plot of land with three houses on it, but they were all, they weren't tiny houses, but they were appropriate. And he kept using this word appropriate, in fact. And I felt like that was the perfect word for minimalism because h- h- he said when he builds a house for someone, he doesn't just go, go to, to their, uh, uh, he doesn't just show them a blueprint of your typical house. You know, he doesn't ask, "Do you want a living room and do you want a dining room?" 'Cause people say yes. He asks, "How are you going to live your life?" And he tries to build a house around that life instead of trying to cram a life into a home. And, and I really admired that because he said, "Everything I bring into my l- my home, everything that I bring into my life is appropriate for my life." And, and that's what we wanted to show people. So we got that side of it, but then we also wanted to be more data-driven and, and we wanted to, to show the, the other side of min- The, the, the, we want- we didn't want it to just be like this, oh, look at these people and this template for living. That, that was interesting. So we, we went out and we got neuroscientists, and neuropsychologists, and, and a bunch of different people, e- economists, a, a former Wall Street broker, and, and all of these people who were using this idea of simplifying and living more intentionally, but able to quantify it in a way-

Lewis Howes 49:35 Yeah

Joshua Fields Millburn 49:35 ... that, that really highlighted the stories of, uh, of these other people who were living this more meaningful, more deliberate life with less stuff.

Lewis Howes 49:43 Sure. That's pretty cool. So where can people watch it right now?

Joshua Fields Millburn 49:45 Uh, you can go to minimalismfilm.com and you can find it there. Uh, Vimeo, and iTunes, Amazon, and, uh, several other places as well.

Lewis Howes 49:53 And what's the main blog, your main site?

Joshua Fields Millburn 49:55 Theminimalists.com.

Lewis Howes 49:57 Theminimalists.com.

Joshua Fields Millburn 49:57 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 49:58 Gotcha. And you can get all your books there. You, there's also information there for the documentary, I'm assuming.

Joshua Fields Millburn 50:03 Absolutely.

Lewis Howes 50:04 And, uh, your next tours and all those things.

Joshua Fields Millburn 50:06 Yeah, for sure.

Lewis Howes 50:07 Everything you guys are doing. Um, couple final questions for you.

Lewis Howes 50:10 What are you most proud of that most people don't know about?

Joshua Fields Millburn 50:18 I'm proud of my short-term actions align with my long-term values, and that wasn't always the case for me. I was always living for someday. I'll get to that someday, in some nonexistent hypothetical future. I'll do this pass- passion project. I'll focus on my health. I'll focus on my relationships. Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll give to charity someday. But of course, someday is, is never, uh, ne- never comes. And so, you know, I, I turned someday in- into today and, and I'm, I'm much more deliberate with the decisions I make today because I realize it impacts not just myself and others, but impacts the future self and others as well.

Lewis Howes 51:02 Hmm. That's cool, man.

Joshua Fields Millburn 51:03 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 51:04 If you had a... Do you have any tattoos?

Joshua Fields Millburn 51:05 No.

Lewis Howes 51:06 If you had to get a tattoo on your forehead in reverse-

Joshua Fields Millburn 51:10 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 51:11 ... that only you could see in a mirror-

Joshua Fields Millburn 51:12 Yeah

Lewis Howes 51:12 ... when you're looking at yourself right here, what would that be?

Joshua Fields Millburn 51:16 Hmm.

Lewis Howes 51:17 A word or a symbol or something.

Joshua Fields Millburn 51:22 Just a minus sign.

Lewis Howes 51:23 A minus sign?

Joshua Fields Millburn 51:25 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 51:25 Oh, that's cool. I like that.

Joshua Fields Millburn 51:27 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 51:29 All right. [laughs] What are you most grateful for in your life recently?

Joshua Fields Millburn 51:32 My partner, Becca. She's amazing. I mean, I, I, I am truly in love and, uh, man, isn't that what it's all about?

Lewis Howes 51:41 Absolutely, man.

Joshua Fields Millburn 51:42 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 51:43 How long you guys been together?

Joshua Fields Millburn 51:45 About a year and a half.

Lewis Howes 51:46 Wow.

Joshua Fields Millburn 51:46 Yeah, she has a three-year-old, so I've become a, a parent in the last, uh, in, in the last couple years, and that has been, uh, uh, the biggest challenge of my life probably. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 51:58 Turning into a parent without-

Joshua Fields Millburn 51:59 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 52:00 Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 52:00 Learn, uh, you know, learning that, you know? It, it wasn't something I anticipated, but, uh, it's been well worth it.

Lewis Howes 52:05 That's cool, man.

Joshua Fields Millburn 52:06 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 52:06 Congrats.

Joshua Fields Millburn 52:07 Thank you.

Lewis Howes 52:08 That's awesome.

Joshua Fields Millburn 52:08 Thanks.

Lewis Howes 52:09 Um, this is a question I ask everyone at the end of the podcast. It's called the three truths.

Joshua Fields Millburn 52:14 Okay.

Lewis Howes 52:14 So if this was your last day many, many years from now-

Joshua Fields Millburn 52:17 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 52:17 ... and you've achieved everything you wanted to, you've lived the minimalist lifestyle, you have the relationships you want, uh, and you got to write down three things you know to be true about everything you've learned that you would pass on to the world.

Joshua Fields Millburn 52:28 Hmm.

Lewis Howes 52:29 And this would be all that they would be able to remember you by are these three truths.

Joshua Fields Millburn 52:32 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 52:33 What would you say are yours?

Joshua Fields Millburn 52:36 Number one, let it go. It's just stuff. Number two, you can't change the people around you, but you can change the people around you. And number three, love people and use things, because the opposite never works.

Lewis Howes 53:06 Hmm. That might be s- one of the best three truths I've heard in a long time, so those are good. Thanks, man.

Joshua Fields Millburn 53:12 Thanks, bro.

Lewis Howes 53:12 Appreciate those, yeah. Um,

Lewis Howes 53:14 before I ask the final question, I wanna make sure where can we connect with you on social media, even though you're never on there?

Joshua Fields Millburn 53:19 [laughs] No, we're on there occasionally.

Lewis Howes 53:21 [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 53:21 I, I think, I, actually that's the best place to interact with us. Uh, although we still get snail mail, so if you ever wanna like write us-

Lewis Howes 53:26 Yeah

Joshua Fields Millburn 53:26 ... we generally don't do email, but you can, you can, uh, you know, send us a, a nice postcard or something.

Lewis Howes 53:32 Got your email. You email me.

Joshua Fields Millburn 53:33 Yeah, yeah. We know, we, we, we just-

Lewis Howes 53:34 [laughs]

Joshua Fields Millburn 53:34 We, we don't have a private e- or we, we have private email addresses-

Lewis Howes 53:37 Gotcha, gotcha

Joshua Fields Millburn 53:37 ... but, but yeah, like, uh, I just found that that barrier of entry and-

Lewis Howes 53:40 Mm-hmm

Joshua Fields Millburn 53:40 ... so I get far more meaningful things from people now-

Lewis Howes 53:43 Absolutely

Joshua Fields Millburn 53:43 ... and these, these, these, you know, beautiful packages and handwritten letters and, uh, i- in the mail than, uh, than via email.

Lewis Howes 53:50 It's, it's a good idea.

Joshua Fields Millburn 53:51 Yeah, but if you wanna find us on social media, it's pretty simple. @theminimalists on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.

Lewis Howes 53:56 Very cool. We'll have that all linked up. Uh, before I ask the final question, I wanna take a moment to acknowledge you-

Joshua Fields Millburn 54:01 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 54:03 ... for transforming your life and teaching all of us how to do the same.

Joshua Fields Millburn 54:06 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 54:06 I mean, to see that you go from such a challenging 20s where you thought you were on the right track and then became awakened to what actually was and wasn't serving you, and committing to make a shift even though it was really challenging, hard, and you constantly do challenges for yourself. It's really admirable to see that you've transformed your health, your relationships, your lifestyle, and the impact it's made in your life and the impact you're able to make on other people's lives. And I think that's what, for me, is meaningful, is when we can set up our life so that it impacts others positively as opposed to negatively. So I wanna acknowledge you for all that you do, man.

Joshua Fields Millburn 54:43 I appreciate that.

Lewis Howes 54:44 Yeah.

Joshua Fields Millburn 54:44 And I'd like to say the same for you, man.

Lewis Howes 54:45 Thank you.

Joshua Fields Millburn 54:46 You, you're doing great work here. Thank you.

Lewis Howes 54:47 Thank you. Of course, yeah. Final question is, what's your definition of greatness?

Joshua Fields Millburn 54:52 So I just spent, um, the last few days at a Rob Bell event. So we have a mutual friend.

Lewis Howes 54:58 Yes.

Joshua Fields Millburn 54:58 Rob Bell. And, um, he, he said something interesting while I was there. It was one of the, the big takeaway. I remember writing this down. He said, "Greatness isn't self-conscious." And I just... There was something that I loved about that, that, that when you are, when you're doing something that is great, when you feel the best, the most excited, the most engaged, the most focused, you're not self-conscious about it.

Lewis Howes 55:31 Mm.

Joshua Fields Millburn 55:32 When I'm in a flow state, generally it's, it's when I'm, when I'm writing. When I feel like something is truly great, it doesn't matter what other people think about it. It doesn't even really matter what I think about it. It's just I feel that it's great. And so maybe, maybe it's just that greatness isn't self-conscious.

Lewis Howes 55:51 There you go.

Joshua Fields Millburn 55:51 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 55:52 Josh, thanks for coming on.

Joshua Fields Millburn 55:53 Thanks, brother.

Lewis Howes 55:54 Appreciate it, man.

Joshua Fields Millburn 55:54 Appreciate you.

Lewis Howes 55:55 Thanks so much for watching this video. I really appreciate it, and if you enjoyed this video, then make sure to subscribe to my YouTube channel. You can do that by clicking right here to subscribe, 'cause each week we come out with awesome, epic, and inspiring interviews and messages and videos just for you. So click subscribe right here to get notified of new videos every week. Also, if you enjoyed this specific interview, we've got a lot of great interviews like this that are uplifting and inspiring. So click right here to watch the previous interviews, because the people I've had on are pretty cool and epic as well. So click here to watch previous interviews. Click here to subscribe. I love you guys, and I'll see you very soon