Change Your Mindset About PAIN & SUFFERING And Use It To GROW | Jordan Peterson & Lewis Howes

Dr. Jordan Peterson 0:00 Having them bring you down is not helping the person who has the problem. It's the same with, with my daughter. It's like had my wife and I deteriorated as a consequence of her condition, A, that would have been horrible for her because then she would have had to bear the weight of watching her illness destroy her family, right? Which is-

Lewis Howes 0:17 And have that guilt and shame

Dr. Jordan Peterson 0:18 Oh, Christ, yes. I mean, that's one of the-

Lewis Howes 0:20 [clears throat]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 0:20 ... terrible things about having a, a very bad illness, is that not only does it do you in, but you can see it taking its toll on the people around you. I think that might even be worse. [upbeat music]

Lewis Howes 0:46 Welcome everyone back to The School of Greatness podcast. We've got the legendary Jordan Peterson in the house. Good to see you, sir.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 0:52 Good to see you.

Lewis Howes 0:52 Very excited about this. You've got a book out called 12 Rules for Life. Make sure you guys check this out. You probably already got it, but if you don't, I'm telling you, go pick it up right now. An Antidote to Chaos. What's been the biggest challenge in your life that you've had to overcome, or the biggest suffering that took you the longest to get beyond, to improve?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 1:11 Oh, I think that was probably, and I wrote about this in the last chapter of my book, which is called Pet a Cat When You Encounter One in the Street, and it's about-

Lewis Howes 1:19 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jordan Peterson 1:19 ... it's about dealing with... You know, you think, "What's the worst thing that can happen to you?" Well, I think the worst thing is that you do something really horrible, and you screw up your life and everyone's life around you. That's, that's bad.

Lewis Howes 1:29 And you have to live with it.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 1:30 Yes, yes.

Lewis Howes 1:31 [clears throat]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 1:31 And you have to live with knowing you did it. It's like, that's rough, man. That's-

Lewis Howes 1:34 See, it's worse than dying

Dr. Jordan Peterson 1:35 ... so to speak. Yes.

Lewis Howes 1:36 'Cause then you don't remember or-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 1:37 Mm-mm. Mm. Right, right

Lewis Howes 1:37 ... you know, we don't remember it

Dr. Jordan Peterson 1:38 There are worse things than dying.

Lewis Howes 1:40 Suffering's over. Yeah, there are.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 1:40 Yes, there are. [laughs] No.

Lewis Howes 1:41 [laughs]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 1:42 No, no, that's, that's a ba- a bad thing, man.

Lewis Howes 1:44 [laughs]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 1:45 But, but I think the, the hardest existential situation that I've been in is the situation with my daughter, because she was very, very ill.

Lewis Howes 1:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 1:54 And she had rheumatoid arthritis. She had arthritis, it wasn't rheumatoid type, and she had 40 affected joints. Now, that started to bother her when she was two.

Lewis Howes 2:03 Mm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 2:04 But it really manifested itself fully when she was six. And some of the medical treatment helped, but when she was 15, 14, 14 through 16, um, first her hip disintegrated-

Lewis Howes 2:17 Ugh

Dr. Jordan Peterson 2:17 ... and then her... And so she had that replaced after walking around on it for like a g-

Lewis Howes 2:22 Oh, man

Dr. Jordan Peterson 2:22 ... good year. And then her ankle disintegrated on her other foot, and she had to have it replaced. And so there were two years of absolutely brutal pain for her, like brutal, daily, excruciating pain. And, and we were really running around trying to figure out what to do about it, because the hip wasn't too hard to replace, you know, because surgeons are actually pretty good at hip replacements.

Lewis Howes 2:44 Mm. The ankle-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 2:44 But ankles are still-

Lewis Howes 2:46 So many bones and like-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 2:46 ... touch and go.

Lewis Howes 2:47 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 2:48 Yeah. And so, and just watching that and, and, and... Well, watching what it was doing to her because she was in enough pain, at, at one point it just about broke her, you know? And I mean, you know, you and I, you've probably-

Lewis Howes 3:00 Imagine emotionally

Dr. Jordan Peterson 3:00 ... been in a situation-

Lewis Howes 3:01 Yeah

Dr. Jordan Peterson 3:01 ... where you were in pain for a night and couldn't sleep. It's like, yeah, fine.

Lewis Howes 3:04 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 3:04 So multiply that by five and extend it over two years.

Lewis Howes 3:08 That's tough.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 3:08 You think, "Jesus Christ," yeah. And she was on, like, huge doses of opiates, and so that was sedating her-

Lewis Howes 3:13 Oh, man

Dr. Jordan Peterson 3:13 ... and so that made her look drunk in public. And she could only stay awake for about six hours a day, and she had to take Ritalin to stay awake because otherwise she was just sleeping all the time. And, and it was a very bad autoimmune condition, and so it wasn't only manifest in, in the joi- joint deterioration and the pain, because arthritis is also very painful, and 40 joints happens to be quite a lot.

Lewis Howes 3:32 Oh, gosh.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 3:33 So-

Lewis Howes 3:33 Just one joint

Dr. Jordan Peterson 3:34 ... it was bru-

Lewis Howes 3:34 Is pain.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 3:34 Yeah, right. No, it was absolutely brutal beyond belief. And so-

Lewis Howes 3:39 As a father or parent, how do you navigate that emotionally yourself?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 3:43 Yeah. Well, that's what that chapter's about. I mean, so, so what do you do when, when things are too much? Well, one of the answers is you narrow your timeframe. Another answer is you look for occasions of grace and beauty where you can get them.

Lewis Howes 4:00 Mm. So any moment.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 4:00 And she had a dog. That really helped.

Lewis Howes 4:02 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 4:03 You know? So that was something that was with her all the time, and we tried to put things in her life that, that she, she could care for. She had a whole raft of pets, although she was allergic to almost everything-

Lewis Howes 4:12 [laughs]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 4:12 ... so most of them were lizards. [laughs] Oh, yeah, I know. We'd get her a guinea pig-

Lewis Howes 4:15 She'd have a plumpy-pumpy

Dr. Jordan Peterson 4:16 ... "Here's a guinea pig."

Lewis Howes 4:17 [laughs]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 4:17 It's like, "Oh, I love this guinea pig. It's such a wonderful-"

Lewis Howes 4:19 I'm in pain. [laughs]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 4:20 And then, you know, three hours later she'd have a big rash-

Lewis Howes 4:22 Oh, no

Dr. Jordan Peterson 4:22 ... and we'd have to take the guinea pig b- uh-

Lewis Howes 4:23 Oh

Dr. Jordan Peterson 4:24 ... [laughs] back to the pet store.

Lewis Howes 4:25 Be like a hairless dog or something.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 4:26 Jesus Christ.

Lewis Howes 4:27 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 4:27 So the dog, luckily the dog she could tolerate-

Lewis Howes 4:29 Oh, my gosh

Dr. Jordan Peterson 4:29 ... and so we had the dog for her. And, but one of, one of the things you do when you're in a situation like that, and it's just a bloody ongoing nightmare, is that you, you shrink your timeframe. It's like, "Well, what are we gonna do in a year?" It's like, "Oh, God, we can't even think about that."

Lewis Howes 4:43 Think about tomorrow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 4:44 Six months, no.

Lewis Howes 4:45 Or a week.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 4:45 Three m-

Lewis Howes 4:45 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 4:46 Yeah. A week, tomorrow-

Lewis Howes 4:48 Wow

Dr. Jordan Peterson 4:48 ... today, the next hour. Yeah. So that's what you have to do.

Lewis Howes 4:52 You really shrink your time.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 4:52 You shrink, you, you shrink your timeframe till you can tolerate it.

Lewis Howes 4:55 So you're not planning out years-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 4:56 You can't

Lewis Howes 4:56 ... 'cause then you'll go crazy.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 4:57 Yeah, it's too much uncertainty.

Lewis Howes 4:58 I'm going, yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 4:59 You think, "Okay, how can I make the next hour the least amount of awful possible?" That's what you do at someone's deathbed.

Lewis Howes 5:04 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 5:04 You know, you shrink your timeframe, and that, and that's what you have to do.

Lewis Howes 5:07 How does that play into the, um, the self-authoring program, if you have this vision for yourself and you're mapping out a year, two, three, five years ahead-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 5:15 Yeah. Well, sometimes, you know, it's-

Lewis Howes 5:16 You have to renavigate

Dr. Jordan Peterson 5:17 ... [clears throat] Yeah, that's right. You have to renavigate. You have to say, "No."

Lewis Howes 5:20 And fit it into that time.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 5:20 Yeah, because even the best laid plans of mice and men go astray, you know? I mean, that's part of being alive. And so you have your map but, you know, if you get a flat tire along the way, you still have to stop and fix your car.

Lewis Howes 5:31 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 5:31 Maybe the bloody thing bursts into flames and you have to get a new car. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 5:34 [laughs] Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 5:35 You know, so I mean, your, your, your ascent towards your goals can be punctuated by unexpected catastrophe, and then, well, then hopefully you've made yourself into a resilient person at that point, and the catastrophe is no worse than it has to be, and you're not making it worse. I mean, one of the things we were fortunate about is that by the time she got really ill my, my relationship with my wife was pretty well put together, and my relationship with my son, my, who's younger than her, was also well put together, and so he was an absolute trooper, man.

Lewis Howes 6:07 Mm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 6:07 Because most of- For a lot of his teenage life in particular, there was a huge amount of focus on the suffering of his sister, and we were, like, right up to here with that. It was just, it was enough, and he conducted himself admirably.

Lewis Howes 6:21 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 6:21 He didn't... If he caused trouble, we didn't know about it. He kept it to himself, you know? And I don't mean he was hiding, I mean he dealt with it.

Lewis Howes 6:29 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 6:29 And he spent a lot of time at home, and he didn't do any unnecessarily stupid things, and he put up with his sister and his parents, who were on edge a lot, without adding additional catastrophe and misery and grief to it. And when she was a little bit crazy and was leaning on him too hard or bothering him, he was there to support her.

Lewis Howes 6:47 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 6:47 And it was massively helpful. And, you know, I wasn't any more... My wife and I weren't any more crazy towards each other than we had to be, and so there wasn't, like, any additional stress-

Lewis Howes 6:58 That's good

Dr. Jordan Peterson 6:58 ... during those periods of time-

Lewis Howes 6:59 Stressed enough

Dr. Jordan Peterson 7:00 ... that would have sunk us.

Lewis Howes 7:00 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 7:01 Yeah. So-

Lewis Howes 7:01 Any extra would have been like-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 7:03 Yeah, was just too-

Lewis Howes 7:03 ... I'm done. I quit.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 7:03 That's right. That's right.

Lewis Howes 7:05 How were you able to compartmentalize or just focus on your, your career at that time? You know, lecturing or writing or whatever it may be at that time.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 7:14 Well, that's also part of the vision of hell. It's like, well, what's the alternative? You let things go and you make them worse? It's like-

Lewis Howes 7:21 Not showing up and yeah, just-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 7:22 Mm-mm. Oh no

Lewis Howes 7:22 ... making it worse

Dr. Jordan Peterson 7:22 ... there's no excuse for that. It's like you can't-

Lewis Howes 7:24 So how did you, how did you say, was it a com- compartmentalizing of like, okay, it's 9:00 or 8:00 in the morning, I'm going to work?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 7:31 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 7:31 And then I have to deal with this-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 7:32 Yeah. Well, we made rules-

Lewis Howes 7:33 Yeah

Dr. Jordan Peterson 7:33 ... and we talked about some of them. Like, some of the rules were, uh, we didn't talk about my daughter, daughter's illness after 8:00 at night. That was the rule. It's like, no.

Lewis Howes 7:41 For your sanity. Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 7:42 Well, we... It's a, it's a war. You wear yourself out in a week, you're dead, and, and everyone suffers a lot. So, you gotta keep going through however long this is gonna be.

Lewis Howes 7:50 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 7:50 And so what do you, what do you have to do? Well, you have to sleep.

Lewis Howes 7:53 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 7:53 You have to sleep or things-

Lewis Howes 7:54 You have to stop talking-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 7:54 ... are gonna go bad. You, yep

Lewis Howes 7:55 ... and sleep.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 7:56 Yep. That's right.

Lewis Howes 7:56 Are you gonna be worse if-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 7:56 It's time to stop talking and go to sleep. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 7:59 That's it.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 7:59 So you have to-

Lewis Howes 8:00 You had a time cutoff.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 8:01 Yeah. Well, and I had learned some of that-

Lewis Howes 8:02 Right

Dr. Jordan Peterson 8:02 ... because I'd been a clinical psychologist for a long time.

Lewis Howes 8:05 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 8:05 And so I'd been dealing with people's problems, and you learn how to... You know, you think, "Well, how can you go home when, when you have all of those problems to contend with?" It's like, well, A, they're not your problems.

Lewis Howes 8:15 They're not going away right now.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 8:16 No, and they're not going away. And, and having them bring you down is not helping the person who has the problem. It's the same with, with my daughter. It's like, had my wife and I deteriorated as a consequence of her condition, A, that would have been horrible for her because then she would have had to bear the weight of watching her illness destroy her family.

Lewis Howes 8:35 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 8:35 Right? Which is-

Lewis Howes 8:36 And have that guilt and shame.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 8:37 Oh, Christ, yes. I mean, that's one of the-

Lewis Howes 8:39 [laughs]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 8:39 ... terrible things about having a, a very bad illness, is that not only does it do you in, but you can see it taking its toll on the people around you.

Lewis Howes 8:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 8:46 I think that might even be worse. I mean, this is gradations of hell, but still, that's... So you also can't allow th- that to happen. If you have a loved person around you and they're ill, you have a moral obligation not to let it tear you down, because then it's on them.

Lewis Howes 9:02 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 9:02 That's no good.

Lewis Howes 9:03 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 9:03 And you think, "Well, how can you remain healthy and strong in the face of the terrible suffering of someone who's close to you?" It's like, well-

Lewis Howes 9:09 Well, you want us both to suffer?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 9:10 Because the only... That-

Lewis Howes 9:10 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 9:10 Well, that's it. The alternative is worse.

Lewis Howes 9:13 You want me to get sick-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 9:13 So-

Lewis Howes 9:13 ... and get overweight-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 9:14 Mm

Lewis Howes 9:14 ... and not be able to take care of you or me?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 9:16 Right. And then we, and then we both-

Lewis Howes 9:17 Both suffer

Dr. Jordan Peterson 9:17 ... drown faster. Right. Not helpful. So-

Lewis Howes 9:20 What about, did she ever go through a place where, I guess, I guess some people do this where, you know, kids who have some type of autoimmune or some type of disease or whatever it may be, they didn't necessarily... You know, they were born with it or it happened-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 9:32 Yeah

Lewis Howes 9:33 ... somehow. It's not like they ate something themselves. They weren't necessarily responsible-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 9:38 Yeah

Lewis Howes 9:38 ... to say, right? I mean-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 9:39 Yeah

Lewis Howes 9:39 ... was she responsible for causing all these, you know, all the pain in her body? Or was it just something that happened?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 9:46 Well, that's what we told her, is just, "Well, it's life, kid."

Lewis Howes 9:48 Right. It's the life, right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 9:48 "It's, it's not you."

Lewis Howes 9:50 So-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 9:50 We also told her very, very, many, many times, and we were very careful about this-

Lewis Howes 9:54 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jordan Peterson 9:54 ... do not use your illness as an excuse.

Lewis Howes 9:57 Mm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 9:57 As soon as you do that, you can't tell the difference between the illness and your character. That's right. So, don't let it turn you into a victim.

Lewis Howes 10:05 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 10:05 Even though it's g- obviously it's a catastrophe. Like, we were very clear about that, and it wasn't her fault. You know, but that she still had to bear up under it as well as possible and to do everything she could and not use it as an excuse. And we talked to her about that a lot-

Lewis Howes 10:21 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jordan Peterson 10:21 ... and were clear about it. Because, and I've seen this, this is one of the things I really dislike about what the universities are doing with disability. It's like everybody gets a disability. It's like, well, and no wonder, because people have hard lives, you know? It's like, it's very rare to find someone who isn't, um, suffering under an undue load of some sort.

Lewis Howes 10:40 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 10:40 There's something wrong with them.

Lewis Howes 10:41 Depression, anxiety-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 10:42 Oh, yeah

Lewis Howes 10:42 ... whatever. It's like any type of-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 10:43 Oh. Or there's something wrong in their family that's serious, or they have terrible economic pressure. Like, there's something wrong. It's like, okay, we should make allowances for you. It's like, oh yeah? What allowances? What exactly does that entitle me to? Well, I tell you, man, that's a murky place you do not wanna go, because then you don't know anymore. It's like, well, what's my responsibility? I mean, I have this undue burden to bear. Well, how does that mitigate my responsibility? Well, the answer is as little as possible.

Lewis Howes 11:10 Mm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 11:10 You don't go there, 'cause you get confused. And you, and as soon as you get confused, well, then the illness has not only got you physiologically, it's got you psychologically, and then you're in deep trouble. And so we were also very, very care- And to her great credit-

Lewis Howes 11:23 Mm

Dr. Jordan Peterson 11:23 ... as far as I can tell, uh, like I wouldn't say she never used her illness-

Lewis Howes 11:29 Uh-huh

Dr. Jordan Peterson 11:29 ... as an excuse, 'cause never is a lot, you know?

Lewis Howes 11:32 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 11:32 Or never is an extreme.

Lewis Howes 11:34 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 11:34 But she certainly withstood the temptation to do it habitually-

Lewis Howes 11:40 Right

Dr. Jordan Peterson 11:40 ... and to warp her character as a consequence. And she did figure out what was wrong with her and fixed it, and so now she doesn't have any of these. She's healthy now.

Lewis Howes 11:48 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 11:49 Well, she still has some residual damage from, from everything that happened. Like, I just found out yesterday, she went to Chicago to have her ankle checked out 'cause it isn't working very well, and they told her that she had to have the old replacement taken out and a new one put in.

Lewis Howes 12:01 Mm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 12:01 So, but, but in her realm of catastrophe, that actually constitutes not, news that's not as bad as it could be.

Lewis Howes 12:09 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 12:09 So, strangely enough. So, it's not like-

Lewis Howes 12:12 So you-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 12:12 ... she's out of the woods, but-

Lewis Howes 12:13 So you, you taught her from an early age, then. Sorry to cut you off.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 12:15 Yep. No, no, no problem.

Lewis Howes 12:16 That even though she had a, you know, let's just- For the s- state of the, the conversation, a, a physical disability, right?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 12:24 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 12:24 She wasn't as able-bodied physically-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 12:26 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 12:26 ... as the majority of people.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 12:28 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 12:28 Is that clear to say? Um, that you told her, like, never allow that to give you special privileges.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 12:33 Yeah. Well, never allow that to be... Never, no, it wasn't that exactly.

Lewis Howes 12:36 Okay.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 12:36 It was never use that as an excuse to not do something you could do.

Lewis Howes 12:41 Even with the challenge.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 12:41 That's the thing.

Lewis Howes 12:42 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 12:42 Yes, because it's the, there's a deception element there.

Lewis Howes 12:45 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 12:45 It's like, "Well, I don't wanna do that, and I have this illness, and that gives me a conve-"

Lewis Howes 12:50 So I can get away with it.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 12:51 That's right.

Lewis Howes 12:51 Got it. Got it.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 12:51 Don't use your illness as a means of getting away with something-

Lewis Howes 12:54 Yeah

Dr. Jordan Peterson 12:55 ... because you'll blur the line. And so-

Lewis Howes 12:56 'Cause then you'll constantly use that for the rest of your life.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 12:58 Right, and if, if you do that 100 times, you'll be so confused about what's illness and what's-

Lewis Howes 13:03 Uh-huh

Dr. Jordan Peterson 13:03 ... and what's not, that you'll not know.

Lewis Howes 13:05 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 13:05 You won't know anymore, and maybe you won't be able to figure it out again, and then you're in a very bad place. You know, there were some things that she had to have done that were allowances. Like when she was doing exams-

Lewis Howes 13:16 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jordan Peterson 13:17 ... she had to type, 'cause she couldn't write.

Lewis Howes 13:19 As opposed to writing, yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 13:20 You know, and she couldn't sit on the floor clo- cross-legged, so she had to sit in a chair. Like, things that she actually couldn't do, but she couldn't do them.

Lewis Howes 13:25 But she still did the work.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 13:27 Yes, she did everything she could.

Lewis Howes 13:28 She still did the work. She just said, "Oh, I can't take the test."

Dr. Jordan Peterson 13:30 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 13:31 "I can't do the exam at all."

Dr. Jordan Peterson 13:32 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 13:32 But she was able to do it with different circumstances.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 13:35 Yes. Right.

Lewis Howes 13:35 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 13:35 Right, right.

Lewis Howes 13:36 Got it.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 13:36 And so, and, and the consequence of that was that once she, she figured out that most of what was causing her, what, what was bothering her, all of it by the looks of it, was a consequence of a, a set of extreme sensitivities to almost every sort of food.

Lewis Howes 13:49 [laughs]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 13:50 So she hardly eats anything now.

Lewis Howes 13:51 Oh my gosh.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 13:51 So the only thing she eats is beef. That's it. Beef, salt, water. That's it. Nothing else.

Lewis Howes 13:57 That's it?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 13:57 Yeah, that's it, and she's been eating that way for, well, mostly-

Lewis Howes 14:01 Oh my God

Dr. Jordan Peterson 14:01 ... for about three years, but almost completely for a year.

Lewis Howes 14:03 And she feels fine?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 14:05 She's 100%. She has no symptoms.

Lewis Howes 14:06 There's no vegetables, no supplements, no-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 14:08 No, that's it. Beef, salt. I'm serious.

Lewis Howes 14:11 That's the only-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 14:11 And she never cheats.

Lewis Howes 14:12 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 14:12 Never.

Lewis Howes 14:13 Well, 'cause she doesn't wanna feel pain and suffering.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 14:14 Yes. Well, it takes a... If she, if she eats the wrong thing, she has a terrible ri- re- a catastrophic emotional and physical reaction for a month.

Lewis Howes 14:22 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 14:23 Right.

Lewis Howes 14:23 Did she essentially eliminate all food and try one thing at a time until-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 14:26 Yes. Yes

Lewis Howes 14:26 ... "Okay, that didn't work. Let's try this"?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 14:27 Yes, and it took about three years to figure it out.

Lewis Howes 14:30 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 14:30 So yes, wow is right. I can't... It's absolutely beyond comprehension. It's a diet that I follow almost, almost entirely now as well.

Lewis Howes 14:37 Just beef, salt, and water?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 14:38 Yes. I've been eating that way for about three months, and I've been on an extremely low-carb diet for about two, two and a half years, something like that.

Lewis Howes 14:46 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 14:46 So, 'cause I... My, both my wife and I have autoimmune symptoms.

Lewis Howes 14:49 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 14:49 And she got all of them.

Lewis Howes 14:51 Your daughter, yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 14:52 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 14:52 So it's like the worst-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 14:52 So she got all of them

Lewis Howes 14:53 ... of worst.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 14:53 That's right.

Lewis Howes 14:53 Magnified by a, 1,000 or something.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 14:55 Yes, that's right. So and so, but when she sorted out what was wrong, she convinced me to also try what she was doing, and it's been extraordinarily helpful-

Lewis Howes 15:02 Really?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 15:02 ... for me, too. Yeah, yeah.

Lewis Howes 15:03 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 15:04 So, so, you know, who would, who would have guessed it? So anyway, so what you do when, when things are too much for you is you, you narrow your timeframe.

Lewis Howes 15:12 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 15:13 I also in, in, in rule, in chapter 12, you know, I, there's a, there's a fair bit of discussion in there about fragility and vulnerability, which is really what you confront when you have a sick kid. It's like, "Oh my God, how can the world be constituted so that a child can unfairly suffer in this manner?" It's like, okay, here's a way of thinking about it. All right, take away everything from your child that makes them vulnerable. Let's say you have a three-year-old. It's like, well, three-year-olds, they're kinda cute. They run around. They're, they're little and they're, and they're vulnerable, obviously.

Lewis Howes 15:43 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 15:43 But that makes them cute and attractive and, and, and, and lovable. All of the vulnerability that's built into that. So you think, well, you move, remove that one by one. Well, they're eight foot tall now, and they're made out of steel, and their parts are replaceable, and they have a artificially intelligent brain. Like, you replace them, obviously this is hypothetical-

Lewis Howes 16:00 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jordan Peterson 16:00 ... with a, with a superhuman robot that doesn't die. It's like, yeah, fine, but where's the three-year-old?

Lewis Howes 16:06 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 16:07 Right. So one of the things I thought about when I was writing this was, you know, when you love someone, especially, well, when you love someone, you love them not only despite their fragility but also because of it. And so then that's the price you pay for it. It's like, well, you wouldn't, they wouldn't be who they were if they weren't, they wouldn't be who they were if they weren't fragile and limited in their particular way. And the fact you like to have them around, you think, "Oh, well, then I mean, I guess you think that that fragility and vulnerability is justifiable."

Lewis Howes 16:38 Mm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 16:38 It's like, well, then you can't allow that, its re- its, its existence to make you bitter, 'cause you can't have it both ways. You can't have them being vulnerable and cute and, and interesting and, and small and, and, and needing care but striving to, to, to develop and grow. You can't have that without them also being prone to pain and destruction and vulnerability.

Lewis Howes 17:01 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 17:01 And so-

Lewis Howes 17:02 Yeah

Dr. Jordan Peterson 17:03 ... take your choice.

Lewis Howes 17:04 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 17:04 And then what do you do? You teach them to be strong. That's what you do. You don't get rid of the vulnerability. You teach them to be strong.

Lewis Howes 17:11 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 17:11 So, and that's, that, that's also a theme that runs through the book in, in many, many ways, is that's, you don't protect your children. In fact, you do, you do the opposite. You expose them to the world as much as you possibly can, and you make them strong. That's the best antidote to their vulnerability, not to protect them. There's no protecting people. We already established that. Life's a fatal game. There's no protecting people. But you can definitely make them strong, and maybe you can make them strong enough to transcend that.

Lewis Howes 17:39 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 17:39 That's the goal, man. So-

Lewis Howes 17:42 Is there anything that you wish you would've done differently with your daughter or your son that you didn't do?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 17:53 Not, not of any great, not of any great significance. I mean, I, I have, I have wishes, I suppose, from time to time that things could've been different.

Lewis Howes 18:02 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 18:03 I, I spent less time on the positive aspects of my son and my daughter because we were contending with catastrophe so frequently. And so, you know, my, both my kids have a variety of interesting talents, and it would've been better perhaps to have had the time to develop those more thoroughly. But, you know, and my son- Well, he, I wouldn't say he didn't get as much attention as he needed. He didn't get as much attention as I would've liked to have paid him.

Lewis Howes 18:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 18:37 But by the same token, it isn't obvious that it's been bad for him because it required him, from a very early age, to grow the hell up. And we relied on him right from the time he was a young kid to make intelligent decisions. We assumed he would make intelligent decisions.

Lewis Howes 18:51 Mm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 18:51 He was consulted with regards to decisions. And so, and it also made him into someone who is, who is very self-sufficient and capable of taking care of himself. So i- it might've been nicer for me, I suppose, to have spent more time with him.

Lewis Howes 19:07 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 19:07 Um, but, but he lives down the street from me now, and I spend time with him, and we have a great relationship.

Lewis Howes 19:13 That's great.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 19:13 And so it's just, it's, you know.

Lewis Howes 19:15 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 19:15 And his, he has a very good relationship with his sister. And, uh, so it turned out as well as it could've.

Lewis Howes 19:22 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 19:23 So, but that didn't mean that those years in there-

Lewis Howes 19:27 Mm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 19:27 They were brutal.

Lewis Howes 19:28 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 19:28 There were some brutal times, man. This, one night in particular, like she was in absolutely ag- absolute agony, and I couldn't get it under control. And I could see, well, 'cause I am a clinician, I could see. I thought, "Goddamn it. I'm gonna end or end up taking her to CAMH," that's the psychiatric hospital, "'cause it looks like it's gonna break her."

Lewis Howes 19:45 Wow. Really?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 19:45 I was like, "Goddamn it." I couldn't see a way to, to resolve it. But it pushed her right to the brink, but, but not over. So, and there was another episode after, after she had her hip removed, ha- hip, hip replaced. She was put in a rehab home hospital for a while, and she was the youngest person in it by like 60 years.

Lewis Howes 20:04 Oh, my gosh.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 20:05 And they treated her terribly. It was a terrible place. Mean, mean, blind nurses, and very, very badly run. And they traumatized her. The hospital was a worse experience than the damn surgery.

Lewis Howes 20:19 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 20:19 And so that, that was, that took her quite a while to recover from, but she did recover from it, so.

Lewis Howes 20:23 Do you ever think now, um, you know, since you're a clinical, clinical, clinical psychologist, and you've done all this research and work and studies, do you believe that your daughter was meant to experience this for you to kind of test your ability to be with her? And do you think she would've been able to grow in the way she is now as someone who didn't have the practice that you had?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 20:47 Well, I think it was fortunate for all of us that... Well, my wife too, like my wife had worked in palliative care as a volunteer, and she was a massage therapist for a long time.

Lewis Howes 20:56 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 20:57 And she's very good at... And my wife has a real, she's a really tough person, and if you don't need help and you want it, she'll cut you into ribbons. But if you need help-

Lewis Howes 21:07 [laughs]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 21:08 ... she will really help you.

Lewis Howes 21:09 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 21:09 So she's really good at differentiating-

Lewis Howes 21:11 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jordan Peterson 21:11 ... between people who actually need help, in which case she is right there.

Lewis Howes 21:15 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 21:15 And people who could stand up on their own. And if you can't stand up on your own, and you could, if you could stand up on your own and you aren't, you don't wanna be around her, 'cause she will, she will put you in your place.

Lewis Howes 21:27 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 21:27 And it was so funny because our ki- our, our kids used to bring their friends over all the time when they were teenagers, which we actually quite liked. And but we had a rule for the teenagers which was, "We're really happy you're here, but if you do something stupid and you never get to come back, that's actually okay with us."

Lewis Howes 21:42 [laughs]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 21:43 Right. And so they knew that.

Lewis Howes 21:44 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 21:44 And it was no joke, because we were happy they were there, and they were welcome, but we were perfectly happy to dispense with them if they misbehaved.

Lewis Howes 21:51 Forever. Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 21:52 And so, but what was really funny was that the kids would come over, the teenagers would come over, and they were pretty afraid of me to begin with. But after being around for a couple of weeks, they were way more afraid of my wife.

Lewis Howes 22:02 Really? [laughs]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 22:03 So, yes. So that was very funny.

Lewis Howes 22:04 Very.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 22:04 Yeah, because she's, you know, she's quite a pleasant person. And she's, she's not a, a, she's only 5'2", so she's... But although she's, you know, she's imposing enough, 'cause she's also in good physical shape. But it was... 'Cause I'm actually kind of soft-hearted.

Lewis Howes 22:17 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 22:17 And she's not soft-hearted. Although she can really take care of people who need to be taken care of.

Lewis Howes 22:21 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 22:22 So no, so I think, you know, Mikaela had a fortunate, fortunate circumstance in that sense.

Lewis Howes 22:28 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 22:28 Because both of us had a lot of experience dealing with catastrophe. And so when it came along, we weren't-

Lewis Howes 22:34 Mm. Yeah

Dr. Jordan Peterson 22:35 ... we were overwhelmed by it, what, but it wasn't because we didn't know what we were doing. We knew what we were doing. It was just even though we did know what we were doing as much as might be possible, that doesn't mean that we could deal with it, because it was-

Lewis Howes 22:49 Right

Dr. Jordan Peterson 22:49 ... well, it took us, it took us, what? It must have been seven or eight months to arrange the ankle surgery, and there was a waiting list in Canada at that point of, I think, three years. Actually, they wanted to fuse her foot-

Lewis Howes 23:00 Oh

Dr. Jordan Peterson 23:00 ... which is a really bad thing for-

Lewis Howes 23:01 Yeah

Dr. Jordan Peterson 23:01 ... for someone young. And so we, we looked in India, we looked in, oh, Christ, we looked all over the world for ankle surgery. Like, really everywhere. And finally, the government w- in Canada was actually quite helpful. We found a private, uh, clinic in, in Vancouver that did the surgery. And the-

Lewis Howes 23:16 Mm

Dr. Jordan Peterson 23:16 ... and, and, uh, the Ministry of Health, in, on Ontario was quite helpful to us at that point. But we were scrambling to, well, what, what should we do? Should we have her ankle replaced? But what sort of replacement?

Lewis Howes 23:27 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 23:27 Who do we talk to? Well, what about this waiting list? Three years? It's like, no. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 23:31 Right. You can't do this.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 23:32 She can't live, man. She can't live for three years like this.

Lewis Howes 23:33 You're not thinking a week out. Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 23:34 Oh, yeah.

Lewis Howes 23:35 Your time frame is a week.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 23:35 Oh, yeah. That's, uh, three years, that was just beyond.

Lewis Howes 23:38 Did you ever doubt yourself in terms of your ability and your research and your studies? Did you ever say to yourself like, "Man, if I can't, you know, figure this out, then all of my work is for nothing"?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 23:50 Well, no, I never thought it was for nothing. But I certainly, I certainly doubted whether or not we were going to be able to figure out, figure this out.

Lewis Howes 23:59 Really?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 23:59 Yeah. Well, because-

Lewis Howes 24:00 If you, if you thought it, it, you know, and at that time you were extremely, uh, educated.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 24:05 Mm.

Lewis Howes 24:05 Research. You know, you'd seen-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 24:06 Mm

Lewis Howes 24:07 ... a lot.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 24:07 Mm.

Lewis Howes 24:07 Did you, did that give you a fear of like, "Well, if I can't figure this out, then no one can"?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 24:11 Of course. Of course. Well, her, her prognosis-

Lewis Howes 24:14 Wow

Dr. Jordan Peterson 24:14 ... was multiple early joint replacements. And, and that was like, that was the good news, because the bad news is, well, how many? And, and how many can you stand?

Lewis Howes 24:23 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 24:23 And, and when does that kill you? Like, you know.

Lewis Howes 24:26 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 24:26 So her real prognosis was- Plenty of pain with an early death.

Lewis Howes 24:31 Oh, God.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 24:31 You know, because, uh, well even now, even now, you know, like the surgeon who talked to her yesterday said, "Well," because he talked to her about the risk of amputation in the future. It's like, well, this is the second joint revision. It's like maybe this will last 15 years. We don't know what the hell's going to happen then.

Lewis Howes 24:46 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 24:46 Well, so our response to that is, that's 15 years from now. It's like, who knows?

Lewis Howes 24:50 Deal with it then.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 24:51 Well, things are better now for how people understand how to replace an ankle than they were, I think it was 10 years ago that she had this one replaced, and it helped. It wasn't perfect. Her hip is perfect.

Lewis Howes 25:04 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 25:04 The ankle has always been trouble, but way less trouble than it was. And so, well, you, you, you struggle forward the best you can.

Lewis Howes 25:12 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 25:12 And so I suppose she could adapt to an amputation if that was necessary.

Lewis Howes 25:15 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 25:15 But at the moment it isn't necessary. But multiple amputations is not something to really be looking forward to when you're 16.

Lewis Howes 25:22 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 25:22 You know, and they were gonna put her on corticosteroids to control her-

Lewis Howes 25:24 Yeah

Dr. Jordan Peterson 25:25 ... her, her inflammation.

Lewis Howes 25:26 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 25:27 And that would have produced Cushing's disease, and so that makes your face all puffy and it makes you gain weight, and so it's very physically disfiguring. So we decided not to go down that route. And-

Lewis Howes 25:36 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 25:37 Yeah, well, but you know, it's, it's worked out.

Lewis Howes 25:41 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 25:41 Thank God. It's quite the miracle. And she had a baby a year ago.

Lewis Howes 25:43 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 25:43 And we were never sure that was going to happen, so.

Lewis Howes 25:45 Congrats.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 25:46 Thank you. Yes.

Lewis Howes 25:46 Congrats to you.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 25:47 Yes, that's for sure. So now we have this respite where she's healthy.

Lewis Howes 25:51 That's good.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 25:51 And the last time I saw her, she was looking great.

Lewis Howes 25:55 Amazing.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 25:55 Like she just, glowing. She's so healthy. I can't believe it. It's just-

Lewis Howes 25:59 That's amazing

Dr. Jordan Peterson 26:00 ... beyond belief.

Lewis Howes 26:01 Congrats on all the-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 26:02 Yeah

Lewis Howes 26:02 ... hard work you've, uh, done to make a, make it a possibility. You know, you spent a long time.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 26:08 Yeah, well, we avoided the worst excesses of hell during the catastrophe, so that's something.

Lewis Howes 26:12 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 26:12 And it did allow her the space to figure out... And my wife had always thought that diet had a relationship to it, and we investigated that.

Lewis Howes 26:20 Mm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 26:20 Like, there's a good literature that shows if you have arthritic symptoms and you stop eating, if you fast, they go away. So that's interesting. It's like, well, food must be causing it. It's yeah, but once you start to eat again-

Lewis Howes 26:32 To survive [laughs]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 26:33 ... no matter what you eat, it comes back.

Lewis Howes 26:35 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 26:35 It turns out no, not no matter what.

Lewis Howes 26:37 Mm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 26:38 Almost no matter what, 'cause she's sensitive to virtually everything.

Lewis Howes 26:42 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 26:42 But she isn't sensitive to meat. And so it turns out that if you eat meat, you can live.

Lewis Howes 26:47 There you go.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 26:48 So that's a big difference between-

Lewis Howes 26:49 Wow

Dr. Jordan Peterson 26:49 ... being sensitive to everything and not being sensitive to one thing.

Lewis Howes 26:53 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 26:54 And so, so it's, it's a harsh diet.

Lewis Howes 26:58 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 26:58 Um, it's made traveling difficult, although I can eat in restaurants because most restaurants can cook a steak with nothing on it.

Lewis Howes 27:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 27:05 And that's made things much easier while I'm traveling. But whatever, whatever. It's working.

Lewis Howes 27:12 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 27:12 And so thank God for that.

Lewis Howes 27:13 Amazing.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 27:14 Mm.

Lewis Howes 27:14 Do you believe, do you think, hypothetically, if your daughter was healthy and never had any of these complications-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 27:21 Yeah

Lewis Howes 27:21 ... that you would be the man you are, impacting people, that the success, the, you know, the attention you'd be getting, do you think you'd have as much impact?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 27:30 Well, I wouldn't have written the 12th chapter.

Lewis Howes 27:32 Right, right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 27:33 That's for sure.

Lewis Howes 27:33 Do you think in general you would still be able to have the ideals, the belief, the fortitude that you have to reach people and really impact people the way you have?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 27:42 Yeah, I th- I think so. But I, I know what you're, I know what you're saying.

Lewis Howes 27:45 No, no, no.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 27:45 You know, your, your question is, well, to what degree is adversity character building? And the answer to that is plenty. But I was already, like I said, and it was the same with my wife, we weren't naive people, you know? I-

Lewis Howes 27:56 Yeah

Dr. Jordan Peterson 27:56 ... because I had an extensive clinical practice, I was dealing with, with heavy level adversity always.

Lewis Howes 28:03 'Cause it wasn't your personal-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 28:04 You know, 25 hours a week

Lewis Howes 28:04 ... it wasn't your daughter necessarily.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 28:05 No, no.

Lewis Howes 28:06 It was lots of, yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 28:06 But there were, you know, there were other problems in my family-

Lewis Howes 28:08 Sure

Dr. Jordan Peterson 28:08 ... and so forth that I dealt with as well.

Lewis Howes 28:10 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 28:11 And so we were already, we'd already, I think, garnered most of what we could from confronting adverse situations, you know? Um, now did, did that add a different level to it? Uh, it's, it probably, it probably fire tested our relationship, our familial... It probably brought our family closer together-

Lewis Howes 28:40 Mm

Dr. Jordan Peterson 28:40 ... all things considered. I saw the same thing happen when my wife's mother die, died. Uh, she died of, uh, prefrontal dementia, and she, she developed it quite young, about, it started to really manifest itself in her early 50s, and she died when she was 70. And she fell apart over, you know, 18 years, and she was very physically healthy. Um, and her husband, who was quite the man about town when he was a young guy, real extrovert, he was a real character in our hometown, he took care of her so well, it was absolutely jaw-dropping.

Lewis Howes 29:10 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 29:10 Every time she slipped, he'd step up to the plate, and he, he took care of her until he couldn't lift her out of her chair anymore. And he was getting old, too, and so she wasn't in an old age home for very long. And then we were around when she died, um, you know, over the la- couple of days just before her death. And her family, her, her sister's a palliative care nurse, her other sister's a pharmacist, and Tammy's had the experiences that I already described, and then her father really stepped up to the plate. And so the whole family gathered around for that, and, um, they acted impeccably throughout it, I would say. They took care of their mother very carefully while she was dying, and they pulled together. And one of the consequences of that, which was so interesting, is that although their mother died, and that was a terrible loss, their bonds that connected them, all of them, strengthened to the point where I would say that was almost compensation for the loss of their mother.

Lewis Howes 30:03 Mm, wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 30:03 So that was really interesting to see what happens even in a dire circumstance if people do, do what they can. Now, I'm not saying that that's gonna work for every situation, 'cause I know people get cut off at the knees.

Lewis Howes 30:16 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 30:16 And sometimes you hit a tragedy that, well, it's fatal, you know, that, that you cannot rectify. It's a real catastrophe. But it was very interesting watching that because they were alert and awake around the death bed, and they weren't fighting with each other at all. There was no s- familial squabbling.

Lewis Howes 30:32 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 30:32 'Cause you can imagine-

Lewis Howes 30:33 Right

Dr. Jordan Peterson 30:33 ... that that would happen-

Lewis Howes 30:34 People are under stress, yeah

Dr. Jordan Peterson 30:35 ... 'cause everyone's stressed. And then you can just imagine how terrible that would make something that's already awful. There was none of that. They focused their attention on her. You know, they gave her water when she needed it, and they watched her.

Lewis Howes 30:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 30:46 And they made, they made this terrible thing the least amount of awful it could be.

Lewis Howes 30:50 That's amazing.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 30:51 And it definitely pulled them together.

Lewis Howes 30:52 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 30:52 Like their, that whole family, in- including me, is closer because of h- what they went through and also how they went through it. And it's probably the case, well, I would say it definitely advanced the maturity of my son.

Lewis Howes 31:10 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 31:10 Because he was cal- and I, I told him, "Look, kid, like you can't add anything to this. We're, we're, we're up to here."

Lewis Howes 31:18 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 31:18 "You have to conduct yourself properly."

Lewis Howes 31:20 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 31:20 "Because otherwise everything's gonna shake and fall. We can't have more of this. You can't bring any an- anything unnecessary into this." And it was-

Lewis Howes 31:29 The kid was an all-star

Dr. Jordan Peterson 31:30 ... it was a, it was a remarkable man.

Lewis Howes 31:31 A champion.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 31:32 And, and he-

Lewis Howes 31:33 Wow

Dr. Jordan Peterson 31:33 ... who was only in grade 10 when most, most of this happened, and your friends are pretty damn important when you're in grade 10, and he stuck around a lot-

Lewis Howes 31:39 Wow

Dr. Jordan Peterson 31:39 ... to be helpful. So yeah, it was really-

Lewis Howes 31:42 What a champion son

Dr. Jordan Peterson 31:43 ... good for him, man. Yeah. Well, he, yeah, he's a good character. He's, uh-

Lewis Howes 31:46 Amazing

Dr. Jordan Peterson 31:46 ... he's, he's quite, quite something.

Lewis Howes 31:48 That's amazing.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 31:49 And he was very helpful. He was very helpful to his sister.

Lewis Howes 31:51 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 31:51 They had their fights, obviously.

Lewis Howes 31:53 Of course.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 31:53 While she was often unreasonable, and no bloody wonder.

Lewis Howes 31:55 [laughs]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 31:56 You know-

Lewis Howes 31:56 Right, right

Dr. Jordan Peterson 31:56 ... well, when you're strung out and, and-

Lewis Howes 31:58 You can't feel anything but pain

Dr. Jordan Peterson 32:00 ... yeah. God, she went through so much. Like, even wa- watching her withdraw from the opiates, 'cause she was on them for-

Lewis Howes 32:05 Oh, my gosh

Dr. Jordan Peterson 32:05 ... about a year and a half

Lewis Howes 32:06 ... the pain.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 32:06 She just quit. Hey, well, as soon as she was done, her surgeon was like, "I'm not taking these anymore." And she had formication, which is the sensation of ants crawling under your skin.

Lewis Howes 32:14 Oh, my gosh.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 32:14 She had that for, like, a month, and ugh, God.

Lewis Howes 32:17 [laughs]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 32:18 Unbelievable. She was, she just, just sailed through it, like-

Lewis Howes 32:22 God

Dr. Jordan Peterson 32:22 ... "I'm done with these."

Lewis Howes 32:23 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 32:23 It's like, yeah, yeah.

Lewis Howes 32:25 You guys have been through a lot.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 32:26 Yeah, it was a lot.

Lewis Howes 32:27 What's your, what's your, what's your biggest fear now moving forward in your, in your own life?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 32:32 Oh, making a mistake at the moment. 'Cause like, I've been, I've been the subject of so much public attention-

Lewis Howes 32:38 A lot

Dr. Jordan Peterson 32:38 ... in the last two years. And like, I've been in a situation where, well, even things I didn't say have also almost been fatal because people take them out of context.

Lewis Howes 32:47 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 32:47 You know? And, um, but I'm, my biggest fear has been that I do something careless.

Lewis Howes 32:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 32:56 And, and that there are, like-

Lewis Howes 32:59 Big consequences

Dr. Jordan Peterson 33:00 ... serious cascading consequences to, yeah.

Lewis Howes 33:01 Do you feel like you've done something careless, or do you feel-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 33:04 Well, everyone's done something careless.

Lewis Howes 33:06 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 33:07 You know? But I've been pretty careful.

Lewis Howes 33:08 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 33:08 I mean, I was fortunate, so when this political scandal blew up around me in, in Canada when I opposed some legislation that I thought was reprehensibly constructed, um, you know, the, the, the radicals on the left in particular came after me hard. And, but I was fortunate because, you know, they called me every name under the book, um, and went after my character. And, you know, I suppose there was some degree of, of... That was understandable to some degree because if you stand up against something, if you stand up against the radical right, well, maybe you're a communist.

Lewis Howes 33:42 Mm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 33:43 Might n- probably not, 'cause you don't have to be a communist to not like the radical right. But if you stand up against the radical left, well, maybe you're a Nazi. Well, probably not, but you might be. And so it's certainly in the interest of the people who are proponents-

Lewis Howes 33:55 Mm

Dr. Jordan Peterson 33:55 ... of the philosophy of the radical left to assume that you're a Nazi, because then they don't have to deal with you. And so that's what happens. You throw yourself into the fray, people try to localize you, and they do that by saying, "Well, maybe you're this, maybe you're this, maybe you're this, maybe you're this." It's like, well, yeah, maybe not, too. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 34:11 [laughs]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 34:12 And, and, but I already had 250 hours of lectures up on YouTube at that point, so people could actually go and see what I had said, because virtually every word I'd ever said to students in a professional capacity, not, not every word because-

Lewis Howes 34:24 Right, right

Dr. Jordan Peterson 34:24 ... I didn't tape every lecture.

Lewis Howes 34:25 Sure.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 34:26 But I taped multiple years of lectures. And so people went over those with a fine-tooth comb, trying to find out if there's anything-

Lewis Howes 34:33 Anything

Dr. Jordan Peterson 34:34 ... I'd ever said that was, and they couldn't find anything.

Lewis Howes 34:36 Wow.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 34:36 And that was because I'd been very careful with what I say. Um-

Lewis Howes 34:40 Wow

Dr. Jordan Peterson 34:41 ... ever since I was about 25, I started paying attention to what I was saying, and not, and trying very hard not to say things that I would... Trying not, trying very hard not to say things that something in me objected to.

Lewis Howes 34:58 Mm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 34:58 So, and well, that seems to have been, provided me with a buffer. And so people came to my website because they were interested in... Well, before the political stuff blew up, I had a million views on YouTube, which is nothing. A million of anything is a lot. But then when the political scandal started to break-

Lewis Howes 35:18 Yeah

Dr. Jordan Peterson 35:18 ... yeah, then people came for them, but stayed for the content. And so, and that's been really useful.

Lewis Howes 35:23 It's all love.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 35:23 Yeah. Well, it's been-

Lewis Howes 35:24 It's all love.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 35:25 Well, and it's not that surprising. Well, you know because of what you do.

Lewis Howes 35:27 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 35:27 It's like peop- there's a great hunger for information that is practical and useful, and that helps people find meaning in their lives and orient themselves. There's a great hunger for that, and most of my lectures were derived from solid psychology, some of it experimental, some of it biological, some of it from, from, from the domains of neuroscience, a lot of it from great clinicians. It's not surprising that people find it helpful because-

Lewis Howes 35:56 Yeah

Dr. Jordan Peterson 35:56 ... well, great clinicians were great because they were really helpful. And so to distill that and to offer it to people in a digestible form, to have that have a good effect on them, well, that's, that's what you'd expect. That's what the whole discipline is about. And so that's been, that's been great.

Lewis Howes 36:11 Mm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 36:11 These, these public lectures that I've been doing, so I think I've done 50 of them-

Lewis Howes 36:16 Yeah

Dr. Jordan Peterson 36:16 ... in about 45 different cities now in about three months. And the average theater size is between 2,500 and 3,000 people.

Lewis Howes 36:24 Man.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 36:25 And they're unbelievably positive events-

Lewis Howes 36:27 Mm

Dr. Jordan Peterson 36:27 ... because people come there, and we talk mostly about the political spectrum and why there's room for voices on the left, and why there's room for voices-

Lewis Howes 36:36 Yeah

Dr. Jordan Peterson 36:36 ... on the right, and where the parameters of that should be. 'Cause both of those can descend into extremism, and that's not good. And the role of individual responsibility and individual sovereignty, and the necessity for people to develop a vision, the sorts of things that we already-

Lewis Howes 36:49 Yeah

Dr. Jordan Peterson 36:49 ... talked about. And virtually everyone that's coming there- They're not coming for political reasons, even though that's the story you hear-

Lewis Howes 36:57 Sure

Dr. Jordan Peterson 36:57 ... up from the more ideologically possessed journalist types, because they see the world that way. They can't imagine anything else could possibly be happening. But the people who are coming to these lectures are coming because they are doing everything they possibly can to make their lives better.

Lewis Howes 37:12 That's it.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 37:12 And so-

Lewis Howes 37:13 Amazing

Dr. Jordan Peterson 37:13 ... and it's lovely to talk to people like that, because-

Lewis Howes 37:15 It's amazing.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 37:15 It is.

Lewis Howes 37:16 It's what it's all about.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 37:17 It's great. It's literally great.

Lewis Howes 37:19 School of Greatness, baby.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 37:20 Right. Exactly.

Lewis Howes 37:21 [laughs]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 37:21 Exactly.

Lewis Howes 37:22 I've got six minutes, to be mindful of your time and your schedule, and I wanna ask you three final questions-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 37:27 Okay

Lewis Howes 37:27 ... if that's okay.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 37:28 Yeah, you bet.

Lewis Howes 37:29 So as l- as much as I would love for you to go on for another few hours on these answers, so I can get to the last question-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 37:35 I'll do my best to be brief

Lewis Howes 37:36 ... be as mindful... But I wish I could go on longer, so we'll have to have you come back next time you're in LA. Uh, the first one is, what is your purpose now moving forward?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 37:44 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 37:44 Through everything you've had in your life, what's your purpose moving forward?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 37:47 Well, I have s- I have specific... Huh, I'm, I'm, what's my purpose? What am I aiming at?

Lewis Howes 37:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 37:55 Well, I'm going to, I did a series of biblical lectures last year. I did 15 lectures on Genesis. I'm going to continue doing that, so in November I'm going to start with the Exodus stories, and what I'd like to do over the next 15 years is make my way through the whole corpus of Biblical writings. So that's one major goal. I wanna write another book. I, I've written-

Lewis Howes 38:14 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jordan Peterson 38:14 ... half of it already, which will be a follow-up to 12 Rules for Life, 'cause I actually had laid out, on a site called Quora, 40 rules. And so I'll do that.

Lewis Howes 38:22 Mm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 38:23 Um, and write an- an- another couple of books, I suspect, over the next few years. Um, I, the touring I'm going to continue. I have 10 cities coming up in Canada, and another 20 in the US, and then 12 in Europe, and I'm going to go to Australia in February, and then back to Europe, I think, in April. So there's lots of touring on the horizon, and it's, it's for the reasons I already described.

Lewis Howes 38:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 38:47 Which I'm having... I don't, the lectures differ every night, although there are themes that constantly emerge, and I'm using those as a opportunity to have a detailed and engaged discussion with the audience about how we might proceed forward individually and collectively so that we can make things consciously better.

Lewis Howes 39:06 Mm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 39:07 And why that's associated with necessary meaning, and why that's a moral obligation. So it's a dialogue about responsibilities and not rights, even though rights... Rights are only important insofar as they set up the space for you to shoulder your proper responsibility. And as a sovereign citizen, you have the responsibility for the integrity of the state resting on your shoulders, and it's something that if you don't take seriously, then the state shakes, and that's not good.

Lewis Howes 39:33 Mm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 39:33 And so I'm trying to convey that to people.

Lewis Howes 39:35 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 39:35 It's like you have, there's actually something that you need to do. You need to take care of yourself. You need to take care of your family. You need to take care of your community. And if you don't do that, then there'll be hell to pay, and it's on you, right? Each of us. And it's, it's hard for people to grasp that bec- well, they don't want to, first of all, maybe because they don't want the responsibility. But then they don't get any meaning, then they suffer, then they get bitter. That's not good. So it's like-

Lewis Howes 40:01 Yeah

Dr. Jordan Peterson 40:02 ... which of these are you gonna pick? But it's also salutary to people, because it's useful for everyone to know that if you don't live up to your potential, that you leave a hole in the fabric of being, and it's filled by something approximating hell, and unless that's what you want, then you shouldn't be doing that.

Lewis Howes 40:19 Mm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 40:20 And so and it's perfectly possible to have a serious discussion with 3,000 people about this, and they're right on board with it, all the way. And so that's really something amazing to behold.

Lewis Howes 40:32 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 40:32 And it, one of the things I've realized is, all of these new technologies, the technologies you're using-

Lewis Howes 40:37 Yeah

Dr. Jordan Peterson 40:37 ... enable these long form discussions. Turns out that people are smarter than we thought.

Lewis Howes 40:42 Right. Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 40:43 Right. TV narrowed it, right?

Lewis Howes 40:44 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 40:44 It's like, "30 seconds. Say your complicated thing in 30 seconds."

Lewis Howes 40:49 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 40:49 It's like, but can't.

Lewis Howes 40:50 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 40:50 And so we were viewing the, the population through this narrow window, and everyone looked kinda stupid. It's like now-

Lewis Howes 40:57 Yeah

Dr. Jordan Peterson 40:57 ... the window's fully open. It's like, oh, look at that. You people like 40-hour-

Lewis Howes 41:03 [laughs]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:03 ... Netflix specials that are incredibly complex.

Lewis Howes 41:07 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:07 Right? And you like three-hour Joe Rogan discussions-

Lewis Howes 41:10 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:10 ... that are complicated. You'll follow the whole thing. It's like, oh good, we're smarter than we thought. Thank God for that.

Lewis Howes 41:15 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:15 'Cause we better be. So-

Lewis Howes 41:17 Yeah

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:17 ... so that's, that's where I'm aiming in the future.

Lewis Howes 41:19 That's your purpose.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:19 Yep.

Lewis Howes 41:20 You got it. Love it.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:20 Yeah, yep.

Lewis Howes 41:21 Um, okay, question number two. This is called, you've got the 12 Rules for Life. Make sure you guys, again, go pick it up. Uh, get it right now. What's the link as well for-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:30 Oh, selfauthoring.com. And I put up a code, which is greatness.

Lewis Howes 41:34 Greatness, yes.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:35 You get 20%-

Lewis Howes 41:36 So-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:36 ... off the full suite

Lewis Howes 41:37 ... there you go

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:37 Two for one, so you can give the suite to your friends, too.

Lewis Howes 41:40 Self-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:40 Yeah

Lewis Howes 41:40 ... selfauthoring.com.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:41 Authoring.com, yep.

Lewis Howes 41:43 Not /greatness.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:44 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 41:44 Just the code is greatness.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:45 Just the code is greatness.

Lewis Howes 41:46 Gotcha.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:46 Yeah, and the thing, that, and I would say to everyone, if you're gonna try this exercise, which I would recommend, do it over a few days.

Lewis Howes 41:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:53 And don't do it perfectly. Just do it.

Lewis Howes 41:56 Complete.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:56 Get it done.

Lewis Howes 41:57 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:57 Do a bad first draft.

Lewis Howes 41:58 Right.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 41:58 Right? Which is an important principle in life.

Lewis Howes 42:00 It is.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 42:00 A bad first draft is a great thing to have.

Lewis Howes 42:03 That's good.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 42:03 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 42:03 And you're also on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 42:06 Yep, yep, yep.

Lewis Howes 42:07 Um, so we'll link all that stuff up as well.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 42:08 Okay, yep.

Lewis Howes 42:09 And your website, what's your main website?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 42:11 JordanBPeterson.com.

Lewis Howes 42:13 Perfect.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 42:13 Yep.

Lewis Howes 42:13 Okay, so make sure you guys get the book, subscribe to everything, get the Self Authoring, uh-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 42:18 The, the Future Authoring, for you university students out there, uh, the Future Authoring Program decreases your probability of dropout-

Lewis Howes 42:26 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jordan Peterson 42:26 ... if you're in a college program-

Lewis Howes 42:27 Yeah

Dr. Jordan Peterson 42:27 ... university program, by somewhere between 25 and 50%, especially if you're kinda aimless. It works better. If you, if you already got a plan and you're implementing it and you've got a good direction, then-

Lewis Howes 42:37 Mm

Dr. Jordan Peterson 42:37 ... you know, it's not as helpful, because you're already halfway there. But if you're kinda lost, and you do this, it'll help you not only establish your goals, but stick to them. It really helps. We've done three very detailed, published, peer-reviewed studies showing that-

Lewis Howes 42:51 Wow

Dr. Jordan Peterson 42:51 ... this really works.

Lewis Howes 42:52 Powerful.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 42:53 Yeah, yeah. And it doesn't hurt you, either. That's the other thing.

Lewis Howes 42:55 That's great.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 42:56 So.

Lewis Howes 42:56 That's great. Uh, you've got the 12 Rules for Life.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 42:58 Yep.

Lewis Howes 42:58 I've got something called the Three Truths. It's a question I ask everyone at the end.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 43:04 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 43:04 So we're gonna try to boil this down for three truths for you.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 43:06 Mm.

Lewis Howes 43:07 You know, imagine this is your last day. You get to choose the day for you when you die.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 43:11 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 43:11 It's as many years away as you want it to be, and you've achieved your purpose.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 43:15 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 43:15 Everything you set out, you aimed for, you hit the target.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 43:18 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 43:19 And then-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 43:20 Yeah

Lewis Howes 43:20 ... you, you pass away.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 43:21 Mm.

Lewis Howes 43:21 It's the last day. Everyone's there. It's a celebration.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 43:24 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 43:25 But for whatever reason, there's no more videos of you up online. There's no more lectures, no more podcasts, no more books. For whatever reason, you have to take them with you.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 43:32 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 43:33 So no one has access to your information.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 43:35 Mm.

Lewis Howes 43:36 But you get a piece of paper, and you get to write down three things you know to be true about your life-

Dr. Jordan Peterson 43:40 Mm

Lewis Howes 43:40 ... that you would pass on.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 43:41 Mm.

Lewis Howes 43:41 I like to call it the three truths.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 43:42 Don't say things that make you weak.

Lewis Howes 43:45 Number one.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 43:45 Mm, mm, mm. Lift your eyes above the horizon and aim at the highest star that you can contemplate. What's the third one? Put your family in order.

Lewis Howes 44:01 Mm.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 44:02 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 44:04 Powerful. Before I ask the final question, I wanna acknowledge you for a moment, Jordan, for your incredible wisdom and vulnerability with me. We just met, but I feel very connected to you and your mission and your purpose. And, uh, I just appreciate everything you've been through as a father and as a husband, uh, for your, for your daughter, for your son, and for your wife to continue to, to move on in your own dreams, in pursuit of bettering humanity, while going through all that you've gone through. So I really acknowledge everything you've been doing and what you stand for and, um, your ability to use your words carefully to make sure to try to make the best impact on people who are listening. So I wanna acknowledge you for all that. I hope we get to have you come back sometime when you're in LA, 'cause I think we can go for another hour or two.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 44:52 Mm.

Lewis Howes 44:52 Um, and the final question is: what's your definition of greatness?

Dr. Jordan Peterson 45:02 Well, greatness is what reveals itself when you, when you attempt to formulate, when you attempt to carefully articulate and live out what you believe to be true. It just happens, because there isn't anything more powerful than truth, right? That's the antidote to suffering, truth, right? So it's a strange thing, because you think, [laughs] "Well, yeah, it produces a lot of suffering, too."

Lewis Howes 45:29 [laughs]

Dr. Jordan Peterson 45:30 It's like, yeah, in the short term.

Lewis Howes 45:32 Yeah.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 45:33 So yeah.

Lewis Howes 45:34 Awesome. Jordan, thank you, sir. Appreciate it.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 45:36 You bet.

Lewis Howes 45:36 Appreciate it.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 45:36 Thanks for the invitation-

Lewis Howes 45:37 Thank you

Dr. Jordan Peterson 45:37 ... and the opportunity. Very nice to meet you.

Lewis Howes 45:39 Good meeting you.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 45:40 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 45:40 Thank you.

Dr. Jordan Peterson 45:41 All right.

Lewis Howes 45:41 O-