Conversation Techniques That Make You Magnetic | Jefferson Fisher

Jefferson Fisher 0:00 Understand that arguments aren't always meant to be won. So there's a, a trap of thinking that there can only be one on top of the mountain, and if that is true, then that's a very lonely place to be. And arguments, in my view, are an opportunity to create understanding.

Lewis Howes 0:15 I think you gotta have a dream.

Speaker 0:16 The School of Greatness.

Lewis Howes 0:17 Really? [laughs] Yeah.

Speaker 0:19 Please welcome Lewis Howes.

Lewis Howes 0:21 You are a, a board-certified Texas trial lawyer that has gone viral-

Jefferson Fisher 0:27 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 0:27 ... on social media with your daily messages of inspiration, building confidence, how to deal with touchy situations and conversations, arguments, how to deal with unpleasant human beings-

Jefferson Fisher 0:43 Yeah

Lewis Howes 0:44 ... and how to stay calm and peaceful and create amazing outcomes in conversations.

Jefferson Fisher 0:50 That's right.

Lewis Howes 0:50 And I'm curious, with all of your experience as a trial lawyer, where was the time that you were the most in the stickiest situation in a trial where you thought, "There's no way I'm gonna get out of this," or, "We're not gonna win this case because I'm just... I don't have the skillset," or, "It's not going our way?"

Jefferson Fisher 1:10 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:10 And what did that teach you about how to be more prepared-

Jefferson Fisher 1:14 Yeah, just-

Lewis Howes 1:14 ... for future cases?

Jefferson Fisher 1:15 Hmm. As... So one of my first trials that I had, it was the first one by, by myself. Often in the legal world, you have, like, an associate, you have a partner, you have somebody who's with you, and that was the first one by myself, and this was a larger case. Um, and when you get there, there's this perception, especially when you're young, you know, y- y- you're, th- the, the, the ink on your signature card isn't, on your bar card isn't dry yet.

Lewis Howes 1:41 Uh-huh.

Jefferson Fisher 1:41 They, they can smell the green on you.

Lewis Howes 1:43 Yeah. You have no clue what you're doing. Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:45 No, a- and you, you can feel that pressure because most of the time, even when you're, I don't know, I am 26, 28, I'm younger than my client. And so there's just, like... A- a- but that just happens. You can just-

Lewis Howes 1:57 He doesn't have confidence in you. Yeah. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:58 R- right, right. It's just so there's that, that level of trust. They... I mean, I know I'm gonna be doing it. And it was a full panel. You have different juries depending on what court it's in. There's, like, county courts that are six, different constitutional courts. You had a, a court of 12. That's a typical panel, what you see on TV. And-

Lewis Howes 2:16 So this was panel of 12?

Jefferson Fisher 2:17 Yeah, panel of 12, and it was a, a larger case. The other side had two attorneys on it from a bigger firm, and they were the ones that were, like, suit and tie, looked clean. They were... You could... It was... It ended up working out for me that way. But I got in this sit- sitchy, sticky situation when I was talking with a witness and I was crossing this witness and I started to get, like, really defensive. I started to let what they were saying get after me. You have these difficult witnesses who-

Lewis Howes 2:49 This wasn't your witness. This was the other-

Jefferson Fisher 2:51 This was not my witness.

Lewis Howes 2:51 Yeah, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 2:51 This was an expert-

Lewis Howes 2:52 Uh-huh

Jefferson Fisher 2:53 ... on the other side.

Lewis Howes 2:53 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 2:54 So these are people who are paid obscene amounts of money from the other side to testify on an expert opinion, but this guy was, he's a veteran. I mean, he-

Lewis Howes 3:03 Oh, he knew what to say

Jefferson Fisher 3:03 ... and he knew... Oh, he, he, he just, he chewed me up like the finest-

Lewis Howes 3:07 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 3:08 ... piece of steak, man. I mean, he was, he, he, he got me good. But what I took away from that, that was just day one, was-

Lewis Howes 3:15 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 3:15 That was just day one. I, I ended up winning the trial.

Lewis Howes 3:18 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 3:18 But it was, because I didn't allow myself... So we did a second day. That's the second time for him to go on the stand.

Lewis Howes 3:28 Oh, wow.

Jefferson Fisher 3:29 And the next day, I did something different. I aligned my thoughts of how I wanted to approach the situation before I even got in it. I didn't do that the first day.

Lewis Howes 3:41 Give me an example. What does that mean?

Jefferson Fisher 3:42 Yeah, so typically, at what we doing every day, we're just going by the seat of our pants, or you, you're just in it. You, it's easy to get overwhelmed. It's easy to get in that moment, and all of a sudden you're just kinda surviving in the conversation. So you're looking for different ways to maybe hurt somebody, to have a zinger, to-

Lewis Howes 3:58 To defend yourself.

Jefferson Fisher 3:59 You got it.

Lewis Howes 4:00 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 4:00 Yeah, very much so. And I remember getting in my car going, "I can't do that again. I can't do that again." And I started coming up with different phrases that I would tell myself to help align me in the moment.

Lewis Howes 4:15 When he does this again, when I get defensive again-

Jefferson Fisher 4:17 You got it

Lewis Howes 4:18 ... when I get triggered and he says something that I know isn't cool-

Jefferson Fisher 4:21 Yeah

Lewis Howes 4:21 ... but he's trying to get under my skin, how am I going to respond?

Jefferson Fisher 4:24 Y- you got it. You got it. And so there was this need for me, being on my own, there was no... I, I didn't have any other people from the firm with me, of trying to prove myself, and sometimes when we have that pressure on, there's that need to overpromise, overdo, and you end up, you know, uh, what you say, trying to look cute [laughs] you know?

Lewis Howes 4:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 4:47 And you, you overextend yourself.

Lewis Howes 4:49 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 4:49 And this time I, I wasn't gonna do that. So I started to write things on the top of my yellow notepad to kinda just, like, make sure I, I sunk these things into my brain. I'd say, uh, one that was just like, "Just be Jefferson." Don't worry about trying to be some, you know, macho court attorney on TV that they... Just, just be you. Just be... And, and who Jefferson is is a guy that I hear somebody get defensive, I go, "Okay."

Lewis Howes 5:17 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 5:18 You know? Just like, "Oh, all right," and I just, I just water off a duck's back. And so it was that first step that now all of a sudden his snarkiness, when I got defensive, justified him getting more snarky.

Lewis Howes 5:35 Oh, right.

Jefferson Fisher 5:36 Yeah. He just ratcheted up.

Lewis Howes 5:37 It's like, "I got you."

Jefferson Fisher 5:38 Every time.

Lewis Howes 5:39 Let me dig at me deeper.

Jefferson Fisher 5:39 You got it. But me just going, "Well, okay," like, all- a- allowing him to have his moment, it made him look worse.

Lewis Howes 5:50 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 5:50 So it, yeah, because now he looked like the jerk. Now he started to lose credibility, and now the, the scales begin to tip. And when the other side begins to object more, it looks like they're trying to hide something more. And so I took the strategy of here I am fighting for my client, just me- And here he is. They're the ones in the suits. They're the ones with money. They're the ones that are objecting. What does that say?

Lewis Howes 6:16 Wow, that's smart.

Jefferson Fisher 6:17 Yeah, so it, and, and so what they would do is they would have, they would bring in their paralegals, like their team, and bring in all these boxes, and they wouldn't do it themselves.

Lewis Howes 6:26 Papers and everything else.

Jefferson Fisher 6:27 Yeah, yeah. They had these banker boxes, Redwells, and they wouldn't do it themselves. The attorneys wouldn't. They would have their staff do it. I wasn't gonna do that, so I made sure the jury, I would keep my box in the hallway until the jury got there. And so I would have two boxes and let the jury see me carry my two heavy boxes in and put them down myself.

Lewis Howes 6:47 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 6:47 And so I just wanted them to always think that which one's, looks more credible, which one looks more authentic to, you know, their practice.

Lewis Howes 6:55 Who cares about the case, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 6:57 Exactly. And all of a sudden, because these j- jurors are just looking at us. I mean, they don't have anything else better to do in the day. I mean, they're given their civic duty, that's amazing, but when they sit in that chair, it's, it's, you're the show for them.

Lewis Howes 7:12 And you've gotta present a compelling case, and you've got to-

Jefferson Fisher 7:16 Yeah

Lewis Howes 7:17 ... persuade, influence, and enroll people in a story of your truth.

Jefferson Fisher 7:25 Right. You, I, it is my job to tell my client's truth, m- tell my client's story, and it's just an odd profession because I, Lewis, I get hired to handle other people's problems-

Lewis Howes 7:38 Right

Jefferson Fisher 7:38 ... with people that I don't have a problem with. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 7:41 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 7:41 Okay? I, n- I don't have any problem with them, but I guess I do now. And then to make it worse, the other side hires an attorney whose sole job is to make me look bad, the, solely just to, uh, make me lose, and you have a judge that just decides the rest.

Lewis Howes 7:56 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 7:57 And there's, I mean, every call that you have with opposing counsel, every time you're talking to a judge, you're having to cross-examine a witness, it is, you can see why the profession is very well suited for people that are good at dealing with communication.

Lewis Howes 8:15 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 8:15 Yeah, 'cause if, if you can't, it's, it's not the one for you.

Lewis Howes 8:18 What I'm hearing you say is the, is now when you go into a case, you have an intention.

Jefferson Fisher 8:22 Yes.

Lewis Howes 8:23 When the worst-case scenario happens, how am I gonna respond? I'm gonna just be Jefferson, or I'm gonna have these other-

Jefferson Fisher 8:31 Right

Lewis Howes 8:31 ... mantras or whatever you wanna call them, intentions to remind myself to lean into that. Is that what I'm hearing you say?

Jefferson Fisher 8:36 You got it, and I translate that with my clients. So I have, just like I do it, I have to train them in going in the hot seat.

Lewis Howes 8:43 Not to get defensive, not to get active.

Jefferson Fisher 8:45 You got it. Correct.

Lewis Howes 8:45 They're gonna do this. They're gonna get under your skin.

Jefferson Fisher 8:47 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 8:47 They're gonna call you a liar.

Jefferson Fisher 8:49 You got it. And, and because your case might depend solely on how you behave.

Lewis Howes 8:54 Isn't that interesting?

Jefferson Fisher 8:55 It, it-

Lewis Howes 8:55 It doesn't matter if, if you were actually right or wrong. It's how you behave-

Jefferson Fisher 9:00 You got it

Lewis Howes 9:00 ... and your energy being presented to a jury.

Jefferson Fisher 9:03 A- absolutely.

Lewis Howes 9:04 And that is happening in real life in everyday conversations-

Jefferson Fisher 9:07 Yes

Lewis Howes 9:07 ... in your career-

Jefferson Fisher 9:08 You got it

Lewis Howes 9:09 ... your relationships, other opportunities in life, is how you present yourself.

Jefferson Fisher 9:15 And, uh, 1000%.

Lewis Howes 9:16 It doesn't matter if you actually have the skills, the credibility-

Jefferson Fisher 9:20 Yes

Lewis Howes 9:20 ... the credentials-

Jefferson Fisher 9:21 Right

Lewis Howes 9:22 ... to get the great opportunities. It's how you present the skills, credentials, and credibilities to the person or people in front of you.

Jefferson Fisher 9:29 Right, and my client could have all the facts in their favor, but if they're a jerk, your case is over.

Lewis Howes 9:35 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 9:35 It's not gonna happen.

Lewis Howes 9:36 It doesn't matter if you broke the law or you didn't break the law.

Jefferson Fisher 9:39 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 9:40 It's how you present your situation.

Jefferson Fisher 9:43 It, well, there's some aspect of it that an appellate court might come back and say, "Ah, well, yeah, the, the, the law is..."

Lewis Howes 9:48 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 9:48 But when it comes to jury trials-

Lewis Howes 9:49 Right, right, right

Jefferson Fisher 9:49 ... when it comes to jury trials, especially civil, s- criminal law is different, but on the civil side of things, they can dump your case if they just don't like you.

Lewis Howes 9:58 They just don't like you. We don't want this person to win.

Jefferson Fisher 10:00 Yeah, be- because if somebody who, uh, here's, here's an example. So I had a, a case I was on the defense of, and lady had been hurt in a accident, and I knew very much that she was, she acted like she was A-okay, and that's okay 'cause you, you can be hurt in an accident and turn out to be fine later. That's, there's nothing wrong with that. But what she had done was overextended herself by saying that the accident kept her from holding her grandkids.

Lewis Howes 10:26 Oh, come on.

Jefferson Fisher 10:27 The accident kept her from being able to go hike-

Lewis Howes 10:29 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 10:29 ... and enjoy all these things.

Lewis Howes 10:31 Yeah, she milked it.

Jefferson Fisher 10:32 She milked it bad. And so when that kinda happens, it's, uh, what I do is just lean back, like, okay, now, now she's saying something. Now she's giving me something aside from her facts-

Lewis Howes 10:43 Oh

Jefferson Fisher 10:44 ... that I can, I can use. And what she didn't even think about was she had posted all these pictures-

Lewis Howes 10:53 Photos on Instagram

Jefferson Fisher 10:53 ... publicly-

Lewis Howes 10:54 Yeah, yeah

Jefferson Fisher 10:54 ... publicly of holding grand babies. They had gone on, like, three vacations to Hawaii, like all these-

Lewis Howes 11:01 Her on top of a mountain [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 11:02 That's, exactly. It's exactly what it was. Next to, like, some, like, Mount Summit, okay? And the next day I come in, and it's my turn to cross-examine, and I said, "Miss So-and-So, I heard you say something the other day that, well, almost broke my heart. You said that life's just not worth living. That, did I read that right?" And she says, "Yes, that's correct." Water works start coming up again.

Lewis Howes 11:23 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 11:23 All right? She cried both times. Which there's nothing wrong with crying, that's not what I'm saying, but she, she manufactured those very quickly. I said, "There's some things I want us to look," and-

Lewis Howes 11:33 Take the photos out. Muted out the photos

Jefferson Fisher 11:35 ... photos, case gone.

Lewis Howes 11:36 Oh, my gosh.

Jefferson Fisher 11:37 Gone in a, in a matter of seconds, and it was my client who caused the accident, but her case was, it should've-

Lewis Howes 11:42 Oh, man.

Jefferson Fisher 11:43 Yeah, but it was, it was not a m- a major accident, but the issue was once you lose your credibility, you cannot, in, in that sense, you cannot get it back.

Lewis Howes 11:52 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 11:53 And so if she had just stayed true to who she was and been honest of, "No, we've been able to go on vacations and do some things, but this accident really caused me some pain back then. Now I'm just looking for a way to try and do X, Y, and Z." But she, she got out of that. She got out by lying.

Lewis Howes 12:07 Wow. That's funny, man. That's crazy.

Jefferson Fisher 12:09 It's fun. It's fun stuff.

Lewis Howes 12:10 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 12:12 Now, when you're thinking about- Questioning or examining someone, um, what is the psychology that you think about before you ask the first question to set someone up, whether they're on your team or someone you're going against, I guess, in court, to set them up for the outcome you wanna create? What's the psychology you think about in order to get the result in any conversation?

Jefferson Fisher 12:42 So I'm gonna answer that in two f- two spots is, one, if s- if it's somebody I am against, all right, versus somebody who's with me. The one against is more fun. So I know that when I sit down and I'm gonna depose a witness, meaning I'm asking them questions prior to trial-

Lewis Howes 13:02 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 13:02 ... they're not going to like me. They know that. They, they think I'm the, the bad guy 'cause they don't know, they just know what they hear on TV. And I know right away that the person that I see is not the person that I'm talking to. What we're about to exchange in that moment is they're gonna reveal to me conflict that is just gonna be a window into the struggle that they're feeling in that moment, that there are things that they carried into that room that they were carrying days, months, hours before they even saw me. And that is probably one of the number one keys of when you deal with these very difficult conversations is the, the issue they put up is rarely the real issue. It's, it's, it's not that. It's... I mean, you can say something at, even at home, you know, you get in an argument with, with a spouse or a girlfriend, and you're going, "Where's this coming from?" Well, it turns out, you know, at eight, 8:00 that morning somebody had cut them off in traffic, and they had a bad email, and they... and there it goes.

Lewis Howes 14:06 They're just frustrated.

Jefferson Fisher 14:07 Their mom said something, and you just happen to be the outlet. So y- y- that's the ability to recognize that and use that as a place to connect rather than a place to continue to, to, um, you know, flare up.

Lewis Howes 14:20 How do you use that, whether it's someone personal in your life or someone that you're working with in court-

Jefferson Fisher 14:26 Yeah

Lewis Howes 14:27 ... when you know it's not who they are, it's the baggage they're carrying to that conversation or the portrayal of the baggage or whatever, how do you use it to your advantage as opposed to get defensive and guarded?

Jefferson Fisher 14:42 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 14:43 Whether it's your wife-

Jefferson Fisher 14:44 Right, right

Lewis Howes 14:44 ... a friend, or someone in a trial.

Jefferson Fisher 14:47 Sometimes you have to take them outside, like, of, of, of their, their, their head. So if you and I are in talking in here, and say we get in an argument, we're just here in this room, and we take o- a step outside, and then, then you get some perspective.

Lewis Howes 15:02 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 15:02 Then you have some clarity. What do we say when we get overwhelmed? "I, I need some space. I need to, I need to go take a walk." It's the same way when we're having a conversation. You know, I, I can have... If I sense something that in that moment I can do one of two things. I can either react, meaning I can get defensive, or I can respond. Responding is a way that says, "I'm trying to understand you." Reaction says, "I have no say in it. I... You have the cause. I... This is the effect." And that has no accountability in that. Responding says, "I'm taking full accountability for my feelings that only I can touch."

Lewis Howes 15:46 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 15:47 That's, that's the big difference.

Lewis Howes 15:48 Wow. How do you not get triggered emotionally, though, in life? Like, personally, if someone's coming at you or attacking you or making you wrong, how do you keep your cool and not get defensive and take things personally, or do you?

Jefferson Fisher 16:03 It's very natural to take things personally, but what I say before I want to take things personally is I'll say, I'll say, "Put it down, Jefferson." I'll say, "Put it down." Most of the time when we're taking something personally, we're picking something up that nobody asked us to carry, and we're just choosing to hold onto it, choosing to say, "This was meant for me," and that's not always the case. And too many times we get... Somebody says, "Why are you taking this so personally?" And they turn around and we're holding it all. Like, "Well, why are you holding that? I didn't ask you to hold any of that." So you, you, you get in a position to where the how personal you take something is a direct reflection of how much grace you give other people. And if I start to take things too personally, "Oh, well, somebody's just going slow in front of me on purpose. Uh, they're showing up late 'cause they wanna show a sign to me," it's just all these different ways of treating things negatively. For the most part we take it personally when the, that's... You just drop it, drop that thought because you're not giving them enough grace.

Lewis Howes 17:10 Where did you learn to let things go and put things down? Did you have this calm about you as a kid, or did something over time help you realize, "Oh, hell, I don't need to hold onto this baggage or stress"?

Jefferson Fisher 17:25 Right. It, it's just been a, as if it's a, just blacksmith hitting on a piece of hot metal. Man, it just, my whole life has been that from-

Lewis Howes 17:36 Really?

Jefferson Fisher 17:37 Yeah, from my upbringing, a lot of attorneys in the family. I'm the oldest of four. I loved being the big brother. That meant I did do a lot of mediating with siblings, a lot of... I, I was the kid in the corner who just got to hear all the courtroom stories, and so they would teach you how to project and how to present and how to persuade and how that had pace, and I mean, it was, it was awesome. And that just kinda translated with what, what I like. Some people are really good at math or economics or accounting. Not me.

Lewis Howes 18:09 Yeah. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 18:10 This, this, this is my thing.

Lewis Howes 18:11 Sure, sure.

Jefferson Fisher 18:12 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 18:13 I think a lot of people in today's world want to be great at winning arguments What would you say if you wanted to win an argument would be the three keys to set yourself up for success?

Jefferson Fisher 18:31 Number one would be understand that arguments aren't always meant to be won. So there's a, a trap of thinking that y- there can only be one on top of the mountain, and if that is true, then that's a very lonely place to be. And arguments, in my view, are an opportunity to create understanding. It's okay to have conflict. Uh, you and I can argue about something, but when it gets negative, that's when it's bad. You and I could argue of who's the best baseball team, and, you know, that's a disagreement. That ratchets up a little bit more and becomes an argument. Maybe we get a little bit more passioned.

Lewis Howes 19:08 Sure.

Jefferson Fisher 19:09 But number one is that don't get into the trap of thinking that you have to win it, because when you do, it just... it's only gonna breed contempt, because it comes at a cost. And maybe you made fun of them, maybe you said something that was, you know, too final, too close to the, to the vest. So number two is know what the end goal is. Oftentimes we get into this argument, and then what happens, we're, like, 10 minutes into it, and we go, "How did we start this? How did we even get here? What, what were we arguing for in the first place?"

Lewis Howes 19:41 Right, right, right, right.

Jefferson Fisher 19:42 And that meant that it wasn't real. Most of the time when that happens, it means that the true issue you were arguing about was just a red herring. That's just the surface. So it's, it, you have to know where you're gonna go in the argument, so what, what the final outcome is, and number two, how are you gonna heal it? Because if it's an issue of especially emotion, if you don't heal it in a way that is going to continue to create that, that positive understanding and interaction, you, you will, you will lose every time.

Lewis Howes 20:18 How to heal the argument or how to heal the disagreement or whatever is happening-

Jefferson Fisher 20:22 Yes

Lewis Howes 20:22 ... between you and the other person.

Jefferson Fisher 20:23 Right. Right, which involves taking accountability for what your behavior has done.

Lewis Howes 20:28 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 20:29 It... One of the worst ways to do that is say, "Well, I would've done it had you not done," right? If, to say, "Well, I would've... I wouldn't have said this had you not said that."

Lewis Howes 20:37 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 20:37 No. No, you don't need to... Once you start tallying who did what, you're, you're already in a losing situation. The, the, the correct response is, "I'm sorry that I said this. I could've done better," and that ack- ex- that acknowledgement of, "I shouldn't have said that. I didn't mean that. I'm gonna do better"-

Lewis Howes 21:01 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 21:02 ... just that little promise says, "I'm, I'm wanting to heal this," rather than, uh, go, go-

Lewis Howes 21:09 Go kick rocks

Jefferson Fisher 21:10 ... kick rocks.

Lewis Howes 21:11 Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 21:11 Yeah. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 21:12 I'm curious. You know, it sounds like something that... That type of language sounds like something that would work really well in an intimate relationship, a partner, uh, s- y- you know, in a marriage if people spoke like that.

Jefferson Fisher 21:27 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 21:27 "Hey, I didn't mean it like that. I'm really sorry. I'm sorry if that hurt you."

Jefferson Fisher 21:31 Right.

Lewis Howes 21:31 "That's not what I really meant."

Jefferson Fisher 21:32 Yes.

Lewis Howes 21:32 I'm sure that would help heal and mend arguments and disagreements in a beautiful, loving way.

Jefferson Fisher 21:39 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 21:39 I'm curious from your experience, been married 11 years now, is that correct?

Jefferson Fisher 21:43 11, yeah.

Lewis Howes 21:44 You've been doing trial law for how long?

Jefferson Fisher 21:47 Eight.

Lewis Howes 21:47 Eight years, okay, so-

Jefferson Fisher 21:49 Uh, yeah, about 10, 10 years, yeah.

Lewis Howes 21:51 Roughly around the same time.

Jefferson Fisher 21:52 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 21:53 What is the number one skill you bring to trial law that you aren't as good in marriage and relationships, and what is the number one thing you do well in your marriage that you wish you did better in trial law?

Jefferson Fisher 22:09 Mm. In the first scenario of what do I do well at court that I don't do well at home-

Lewis Howes 22:15 Or not as well

Jefferson Fisher 22:15 ... yeah, not as well, manage my emotions.

Lewis Howes 22:19 You manage emotions really well at court?

Jefferson Fisher 22:21 Yes. You have to. I can't, I can't be, I can't be acting a fool.

Lewis Howes 22:26 Right. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 22:26 You know? You know what I'm saying? Like, there, there's too, there's too much, there's too much a- at stake and, and you're, you're... As a profession, that's, that's not a place to be doing that. And versus at home, yeah, I get mad about, I mean, all kinds of things.

Lewis Howes 22:40 Really?

Jefferson Fisher 22:40 Yeah. I mean, we, we... I- I'm human. I mean, but of course, I'm not somebody who lashes out. I'm not, I'm not a big emotionally reactive, uh, person. I'm, I'm pretty much like this.

Lewis Howes 22:51 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 22:52 But that doesn't mean that the fifth time I, you know, my son's asked me to, uh, for a popsicle that it's, "No, man, it's after bedtime. We've already eaten one today. It's, it's time to go to bed."

Lewis Howes 23:05 I've already said no.

Jefferson Fisher 23:06 Yeah, yeah. We've al- I've already said no, and like, you just... It's easy to-

Lewis Howes 23:09 Ugh

Jefferson Fisher 23:10 ... try and get that. So dealing with those emotions. And I, I also think a lot of that is home is a safe place to express and feel your emotions-

Lewis Howes 23:18 Right

Jefferson Fisher 23:19 ... versus in the workplace, not so much.

Lewis Howes 23:22 You may not succeed as well-

Jefferson Fisher 23:23 You got it

Lewis Howes 23:23 ... in your career or accelerate your career.

Jefferson Fisher 23:25 Not mine.

Lewis Howes 23:25 Yeah, exactly.

Jefferson Fisher 23:26 Yeah, yeah, if, if you are, because if you're always emotionally reactive in my profession, you're just seen as a hothead and somebody that nobody can work with.

Lewis Howes 23:33 Not credible.

Jefferson Fisher 23:34 No.

Lewis Howes 23:34 No.

Jefferson Fisher 23:34 Not, not credible. On the flip side of it, what do I do well at home that I don't do nearly as well in the, in the workplace? Man, that's, that's hard. I feel like what we do really well at home is sometimes have, like, very direct, fast arguments. My wife's also an attorney.

Lewis Howes 23:55 Oh, man. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 23:55 Yeah. Yeah. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 23:56 So you both got your case.

Jefferson Fisher 23:57 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lewis Howes 23:58 You're both-

Jefferson Fisher 23:58 So, but our arguments are extremely efficient. Like, they... I, I can't, I can count on one hand the amount of times they've actually been, like, long.

Lewis Howes 24:07 Really?

Jefferson Fisher 24:07 Yeah. Uh, it's typically pretty, pretty quick.

Lewis Howes 24:11 How do you, how do you create quick arguments? How do you end arguments quickly?

Jefferson Fisher 24:16 Quick apologies.

Lewis Howes 24:17 Really? You both apologize fast?

Jefferson Fisher 24:19 Yes, but, mm, but we will kind of package it. We- It's not like we have a formula or like, "Let's go to the book."

Lewis Howes 24:26 Right. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 24:26 No, there's no... This is, this is what we've, like, developed over time. ... is, uh, when I heard you say this, it made me think this. I didn't mean that. Okay, well, I'll, I will... Next time I will try to ask you this before I go there.

Lewis Howes 24:40 I won't make an assumption.

Jefferson Fisher 24:41 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 24:42 I won't get upset right away without asking you further-

Jefferson Fisher 24:44 Yeah

Lewis Howes 24:45 ... interrogations. Yeah. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 24:46 Yeah, yeah. You got it. Oh, yeah. I, I can't tell you how many times I'll hear, like, "Stop cross-examining."

Lewis Howes 24:51 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 24:51 Like, she, she can pick it up immediately, and I don't mean to do it.

Lewis Howes 24:54 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 24:54 It's just happening. But-

Lewis Howes 24:55 Sure

Jefferson Fisher 24:56 ... yeah.

Lewis Howes 24:56 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 24:57 She, she quickly shuts that down.

Lewis Howes 24:58 What is a, a top strategy or technique that you've learned ethically to get what you want from people, to persuade, influence, and enroll others, strangers or people you know very well, in getting something you want?

Jefferson Fisher 25:17 You have to give them a reason to wanna give it to you, and it needs to come from a place of making them happy to do so. And when it becomes a, a place of rather a negotiation, which makes them feel like they've lost something, you couch it and frame it in a way that feels like they've gained something. And so if you and I are across the table in a negotiation, whatever you give, you've lost. But if I can say, "You know what, Lewis? Man, and you've just been doing so well. Uh, you hit 3 million on, on YouTube now. I mean, your stuff's just going off the charts. You know what you could be really good at and I'd love to see is X, Y, and Z." And all of a sudden it's like a shift of you're sitting on the same t- side of the table as me, and now I'm trying to help you inspire other thoughts that are also aligned with what I want. And that's a much... Now you're gonna say, "Well, that's sounds sneaky." Uh, no, it's, it's not. It's actually getting what you, you need sometimes-

Lewis Howes 26:24 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 26:24 ... in a way that is also benefiting the other person.

Lewis Howes 26:27 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 26:27 I'd much rather that way than say, "I don't like you. You don't like me. We're just gonna have a bloodbath, and have at it."

Lewis Howes 26:34 Sure.

Jefferson Fisher 26:34 May the, may the best guy win.

Lewis Howes 26:36 Right, right. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 26:36 You know? So just don't ask for a pay, uh, arm wrestle right now. You, you're gonna win that one. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 26:41 [laughs] When you go into a negotiation and you know you're about to negotiate something-

Jefferson Fisher 26:48 Yeah

Lewis Howes 26:48 ... what is the best intention you should have going into it so that you can create the best outcome for you, and the other person still feels like they didn't lose?

Jefferson Fisher 27:00 The... So Chris Voss' book is fantastic, Never Split the Difference, and one of his, his things about tactical empathy is making the other person feel like you're, you want the best for them, that you're, that you're in their camp, and you're not going to get emotionally reactive in the, in the answer. You're, you, you're already addressing the issues that you're expecting them to, to think of. So like he'll say, "You're probably thinking that X, Y, and Z." You're, it sounds to me like he's already kind of given these hints of what he's already picking up on, and when you say what already they are thinking in their mind, you pull it out on the table really quickly, and then, and then, and then that's it. What I will do a lot of the times is somebody gives some kind of objection, not like in a legal sense in a courtroom, but I'll say, "Aside from that, aside from what you just said, anything else that I should know about?" They say, "No." Great. And then I'll typically give it, like, a two-path thing, so I will, I will ask more questions, say, "Typically, when I hear that, some- it means that n- they really don't wanna talk to me, and that's, that's okay if you're not ready to right now." If there's some they actually do wanna talk about, they're not sure what they wanna say. Is it really one or two for you? And then you, you be able to kind of delve for that. But it's inviting them into a way that it's gonna get you what you want at the end.

Lewis Howes 28:20 Right. Right. That's interesting.

Jefferson Fisher 28:21 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 28:22 And how do you build confidence in conversations with people that are difficult, that are smarter than you, potentially, uh, that are older than you? How do you create confidence in challenging conversations to make sure that you're on the same playing field with the other person and you get the results you want in the conversation, whether it's just a conversation or a negotiation?

Jefferson Fisher 28:50 One would be to do not let defensiveness be your first step. Soon as you take that step, you've lost. The better way to do it is let your breath be the first word that you say. So if you think of your breath as a word, it's, it kinda changes your mind of, "Okay, now I can address this." Because what, what we'll do is we'll hold our breath like that, and then, I mean, y- you know, this thing kicks in, our nerves. Then, then, then comes in the adrenaline.

Lewis Howes 29:20 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 29:20 Then comes in the defensiveness, and you realized, "I haven't even breathed yet."

Lewis Howes 29:25 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 29:26 You know? And, um, and when it comes to, to, to confidence, of course we can say it's the way you project. It's the way you smile. It's the way you pace your conversation, keeping your voice low, keeping your words slow. It's all these kinda things. It's the perception that I don't have to say anything more than what I need to say, because oftentimes more words says less. You need to eliminate that.

Lewis Howes 29:54 Right. Right. Less words says more sometimes.

Jefferson Fisher 29:56 Yeah. Uh, uh, yeah, every time.

Lewis Howes 29:58 What's it been like over the last year? You were a trial lawyer for seven, eight years, you know, small town, Texas.

Jefferson Fisher 30:07 Yeah, Texas.

Lewis Howes 30:08 And, uh, you know, living your life, kids, married, and then all of a sudden you say, "You know what? I think I'm gonna share some of these things on-

Jefferson Fisher 30:15 Yeah

Lewis Howes 30:15 ... social media," you know, essentially a year, year and a half ago. And, um, you know, the last year and a half it's gone from a couple videos here and there to over five million followers.

Jefferson Fisher 30:25 Right.

Lewis Howes 30:26 And people really coming to you for wisdom and advice and, you know, now your business growing. ... the law firm growing and opportunities coming to you.

Jefferson Fisher 30:35 Right.

Lewis Howes 30:35 What has that experience done for you in your confidence and also your personal life? And do you feel more stressed or overwhelmed or a sense of pressure now that you have this larger following and people looking to you for advice?

Jefferson Fisher 30:52 Yes, it has helped my law firm in a big way, because I don't tell people what I do, but they're interested in it, and so they go and find me. Now, sometimes I'll just get calls from people who just wanna talk-

Lewis Howes 31:02 Sure

Jefferson Fisher 31:03 ... or people who will act like they're a client just so, just so they can talk. But by and large, it's, it's been very helpful for, for my business, and it's always helpful for my trials. I have, I have several trial settings this, this fall. There's not a judge who hasn't seen the videos. There's not an-

Lewis Howes 31:19 Really?

Jefferson Fisher 31:19 ... opposing counsel who hasn't seen the videos. And so that's, it's good and bad because it makes me very hyper-aware of my interactions with them because as soon as I say one thing that's off, then, "Oh, Jefferson's not who he-

Lewis Howes 31:34 Oh

Jefferson Fisher 31:34 ... who he is," which is just not true. But I would say absolutely it's built a lot more pressure.

Lewis Howes 31:40 Really?

Jefferson Fisher 31:41 Yeah. Yeah. That's the, I think it was one of the sources of the, when I had, uh, my first panic attack at beginning of this year. Uh, because even though you have more followers, it's also very isolating in a way because I know law very well, and when I had that, I had a lot of people at my table, so to speak. I had mentors, I had friends, I had other people who, w- I mean, other lawyers. I had my, my family. I had studied it. I knew, I'd read all the things, and it started out awesome. The social media thing was, I d- I, I just going in my car for a little bit and make, making a video of what was off the top of my head, and now it's gotten much more serious. And with that, there's a pressure of not wanting to give bad advice. I'm certainly never gonna act like I know everything. I can, of course I can give bad advi- I, I mean, it's, it's inevitable. So you have that kind of feeling, and it's a lot of eyes on you. So with anybody, it's kind of that imposter syndrome, like do I really know what I'm saying? You know, is, do I really, do I really know it or I'm just fooling everybody?

Lewis Howes 32:47 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 32:48 And so you kind of have to, to battle that in your head and go, "No, nope, I, I've done this. I've done this." Like, when I say done, like I've lived this, I've lived that, all the, this has been my life.

Lewis Howes 32:58 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 32:59 And as long as I share my life and I'm authentic to who I am, I'm never gonna be an imposter.

Lewis Howes 33:04 Right. 'Cause you started opening up recently and did some different videos about the, you know, kind of mental health, uh, panic attacks-

Jefferson Fisher 33:11 Yeah

Lewis Howes 33:11 ... that you've experienced. When did you have the first panic attack? How did that make you feel, and how have you been able to manage that feeling of overwhelm or, you know, panic?

Jefferson Fisher 33:24 It was in February where all of a sudden I had a whole bunch of videos that were taken off, videos that I had posted like two weeks prior.

Lewis Howes 33:31 Going viral.

Jefferson Fisher 33:32 You got it. Yeah, like four of them all in a row. And it was me going, "I don't know what's happening. Somebody at Instagram messed up." Like I, you know, like the, like this, this can't be. And as it continued to grow, then I started seeing more people with... I didn't have a blue check. All these more people with a blue check following me, um, and that was before you could buy it. And then I'm seeing, you know, um, other celebrities, and I'm going, "Hold up here. Uh, what, what's happening?" And then I knew I needed to get, like build a website, because I didn't have a website, so I'm staying up super late, like working on some sketchy-

Lewis Howes 34:18 Put something together. Yeah, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 34:19 Yeah, just anything. Any- anything. There's no team. There's just, it's just this guy. And it was a little after midnight. Wife, kids were asleep, and Lewis, it felt like somebody had gotten that little piece of paper and just wafted it in front of my face, like a very cool just rush. And I said out loud in the kitchen, I said, "What was that?" Because I was like, "Did just a ghost just, you know, jump over me?" And just like that it was ka-ka, ka-ka, ka-ka, ka-ka. I just, all of a sudden I could hear it in my ears, tightness in my chest, and my whole system just started to, like, freak.

Lewis Howes 34:54 Really?

Jefferson Fisher 34:54 I was convinced, I was convinced that was a heart attack and I was dying.

Lewis Howes 34:58 Holy cow.

Jefferson Fisher 34:59 Because I knew it could not have been anxiety.

Lewis Howes 35:03 Really? Why?

Jefferson Fisher 35:04 Y- y- you know what I m- like, I was like I, I, I eat stress-

Lewis Howes 35:07 I'm cool

Jefferson Fisher 35:07 ... for breakfast.

Lewis Howes 35:08 Yeah, I'm chill, I'm cool.

Jefferson Fisher 35:09 You, you know how many trials I've had, you know how many s- stressful situations and money on the line and all this stuff? I, I, I eat stress. We can do this. I, I was... It, it was such an ignorant mindset. Uh, but at the moment I was like-

Lewis Howes 35:24 You thought you were having a heart attack.

Jefferson Fisher 35:25 I thought I was having a heart attack because there could be no other explanation in my mind because I don't have anxiety. I don't have panic attacks. The, that's for people who don't have their life together. That was the, that was the very wrong mindset that I had.

Lewis Howes 35:39 And what happened during that night, and how did you get through it?

Jefferson Fisher 35:42 Oh, well, I went to the ER because I thought I was dying.

Lewis Howes 35:45 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 35:45 And-

Lewis Howes 35:46 Did you drive yourself? Did your wife drive you? Did you call 911?

Jefferson Fisher 35:49 I called 911, yeah.

Lewis Howes 35:50 They, ambulance came-

Jefferson Fisher 35:51 Ambulance came

Lewis Howes 35:51 ... and picked you up-

Jefferson Fisher 35:52 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 35:52 ... the whole thing.

Jefferson Fisher 35:53 All the-

Lewis Howes 35:53 Lights, sirens, the-

Jefferson Fisher 35:53 All the, all the thing they-

Lewis Howes 35:55 They bring out the-

Jefferson Fisher 35:56 Oh, yeah

Lewis Howes 35:56 ... the whole-

Jefferson Fisher 35:56 I was, I was shaking so badly, like uncontrollable shaking. I didn't, I, I didn't know. I didn't know what was going on. All I knew was like, all I could tell my wife is, "Something is not right." Like, that's all I could get out of my mouth: "Something is not right." It's true. Something was not right.

Lewis Howes 36:11 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 36:11 My body's like, "No, I'm not-"

Lewis Howes 36:12 Your body was convulsing essentially.

Jefferson Fisher 36:13 Yeah, yeah, my body was like, "Yeah, you're not right right now."

Lewis Howes 36:15 It was, like, shutting down.

Jefferson Fisher 36:16 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 36:16 The system powered down and-

Jefferson Fisher 36:18 Yeah, all of that.

Lewis Howes 36:19 Holy cow.

Jefferson Fisher 36:19 And it was, yeah, at, at 34 is the first time I ever had that kind of experience. It was very real. I mean, as physical and tangible as, as heart-

Lewis Howes 36:28 Heart pounding

Jefferson Fisher 36:28 Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so-

Lewis Howes 36:30 Sweating-

Jefferson Fisher 36:30 Oh

Lewis Howes 36:30 ... dizziness, all of it.

Jefferson Fisher 36:32 Uh, I couldn't tell if I was gonna throw up. I like, I was, I was like, "Lord, I-" Anytime, please. Because I hated the, the whole thing, it just felt like it was days while you're just shaking. So I get down to the hospital, they run my blood work. By that time I'm having, like, what you would call, I guess, aftershocks. Like, I'd, I'd be good and then I'd have another just, like, onset. And then it'd go-

Lewis Howes 36:54 Like kind of intense heart palpitations or-

Jefferson Fisher 36:55 Yeah. And then it would go flat, and then I'd just, like, everything in my body would, like, clench up. It just... And that happened for, uh, I don't know, two hours.

Lewis Howes 37:03 Geez.

Jefferson Fisher 37:03 And then they just said, "Well, you just... No heart attack. Your heart's good."

Lewis Howes 37:07 Yeah. Your blood work's fine.

Jefferson Fisher 37:08 "Your blood's fine."

Lewis Howes 37:08 Everything was fine.

Jefferson Fisher 37:09 "Healthy, healthy as can be, but you just, you had a, had a panic attack." And I was like, "Excuse me, what?" They're like, "You had a panic attack." I was like, "Uh..."

Lewis Howes 37:16 No, I'm for sure my heart had a-

Jefferson Fisher 37:18 Yeah, yeah

Lewis Howes 37:18 ... attack. Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 37:18 Yeah. I was like, I was like, "Are you sure? You just... It's okay. I'll get a heart monitor. It's okay." Uh, but yeah, so that-

Lewis Howes 37:24 Panic attack

Jefferson Fisher 37:25 ... panic attack.

Lewis Howes 37:25 And when they said that, how did that make you feel?

Jefferson Fisher 37:27 It made me feel very normal and l- and, and messed up. It made me feel like I was, something was wrong with me. Like, it made me feel like, uh, oh, no, I am, now I'm one of them. Like, now I'm, now I'm somebody who can't control my thoughts. Now I'm somebody who, like, now I am going... And then, like, the panic of the thoughts. So some of those thoughts in my mind-

Lewis Howes 37:49 The panic of the panic attack.

Jefferson Fisher 37:50 You got it. Yeah. And, and, and because in that moment, yeah, I can tell myself, "Of course, no, you're, you're perfectly normal. Yes, you're supposed to have... Your body is... This is all natural." I can say that now. In that moment, it was, "Well, what, what's, what's, what's happening? And is my brain just falling apart?" Because you would have these rapid thoughts that would come, these crazy thoughts that I could not stop. Like, um-

Lewis Howes 38:14 Like what thoughts?

Jefferson Fisher 38:16 Oh, you, uh, uh, for whatever reason they would revolve around, like, f- for whatever reason, death was a trigger. Like, any thought of dying or the topic of it would just, like, send m- my whole body into a, a fritz, and that's so bizarre coming from never in my life has this happened.

Lewis Howes 38:35 Ever.

Jefferson Fisher 38:36 And here I am, the guy who is, at the time, is going... It was the night that my following hit a million is when it happened.

Lewis Howes 38:43 Wow. The night you hit a million.

Jefferson Fisher 38:44 The night, the night hit a million. And but it was the thought of here's this guy who gives all this communication advice about, you know, blah, blah, and I'm just rippling and I'm just melting. I had another panic attack for the next eight days.

Lewis Howes 38:58 Every day?

Jefferson Fisher 38:58 Every day.

Lewis Howes 38:59 Did you call the ER every time or no?

Jefferson Fisher 39:00 No, no, no, I-

Lewis Howes 39:01 You knew this was happening.

Jefferson Fisher 39:01 Yeah. The second time, the second time was at the office, and I was like, "Oh, no." I said, I was like, "Oh, no." But at that point I knew I wasn't dying, and that's a, that's a very big relief.

Lewis Howes 39:11 How long did the second one last?

Jefferson Fisher 39:13 Uh, just as long. Just as long.

Lewis Howes 39:15 A couple hours.

Jefferson Fisher 39:15 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Lewis Howes 39:16 So you're sitting in the office for a couple hours, like laying down on the couch or on the floor.

Jefferson Fisher 39:19 Breathing. I'm, I'm straight just, like, d- pulling out the Headspace app. I'm working-

Lewis Howes 39:23 Holy

Jefferson Fisher 39:23 ... on my breathing. I'm like, yeah. And so I-

Lewis Howes 39:26 And the next days after that it was the same-

Jefferson Fisher 39:28 They got a little bit shorter, but it would happen at terrible times.

Lewis Howes 39:32 Wow, man.

Jefferson Fisher 39:33 Yeah. It was terrible. It was a horrible time. And then, um, I was like, man, I gotta see what this is, I gotta see what this is about. So I spent, like, a full day marked off my calendar of, like, I am researching everything I wanna know about this topic, 'cause never in my life had I been on my radar.

Lewis Howes 39:50 What'd you find out about? What'd you, what'd you discover?

Jefferson Fisher 39:53 So I discovered s- several things. One was part of that response that your body is going through, your body is telling you things, that something is not right. You're... Because I, I have a great mental game, and I can tell myself just about anything, like, "No, I'm not nervous. I'm excited. I, I'm, I'm very happy to be here." Or-

Lewis Howes 40:12 I'm prepared.

Jefferson Fisher 40:12 You got-

Lewis Howes 40:13 I'm there someday. Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 40:13 ... you got, yeah. I have to have this mindset of calm, cool, and collected when I walk in that door. When I walk through those courtroom doors, they need to, I need to look like I, I've already won. I just need to show them why. And, and here in this mindset was me saying, "Actually, uh, your body knows better than you do." Uh-

Lewis Howes 40:37 You can't out-think this.

Jefferson Fisher 40:38 You gotta... Yeah. Cannot think this.

Lewis Howes 40:39 You gotta feel it-

Jefferson Fisher 40:40 Yeah

Lewis Howes 40:41 ... and move through it.

Jefferson Fisher 40:42 Yeah. There's that book, I can't remember the author. Body Keeps the Score.

Lewis Howes 40:45 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 40:45 And-

Lewis Howes 40:45 Incredible book

Jefferson Fisher 40:46 ... yeah, so I, I ordered that book, like, right away.

Lewis Howes 40:48 What did you learn about your- yourself, your body-

Jefferson Fisher 40:51 Yeah

Lewis Howes 40:51 ... and your memories of the past-

Jefferson Fisher 40:53 No, no

Lewis Howes 40:54 ... that were causing this?

Jefferson Fisher 40:56 There was a sense of, and this is gonna, it's gonna sound weird, but it ju- it was a sense of immediate isolation. Okay? I have the million on my phone. Between me and you, it's just a digit from a number on my phone. That's it. No different than if I just pressed one on a keypad on my calculator on my phone. But that number meant much more significance. And of course, there are a lot of creators that have way more than that. But for somebody who's just been in this car, who doesn't see any of these people-

Lewis Howes 41:31 Right

Jefferson Fisher 41:32 ... I'm in a small town. I'm a f- I'm growing a law firm. I'm just doing all I can. And then all of a sudden I felt like a lot of eyes were on me, and I had nobody to help. Like, there was nobody. I couldn't, if I called my best friend, he'd be like, "Yeah, man."

Lewis Howes 41:47 He doesn't understand.

Jefferson Fisher 41:47 Yeah, yeah. He's like, "Oh, that's-"

Lewis Howes 41:48 Right

Jefferson Fisher 41:49 ... "that's a, that's a bummer." You know? I, I just, they couldn't, they couldn't... I could tell, "Hey, what do you, what do you think?" "I don't know."

Lewis Howes 41:56 I'm glad I reached out to you then.

Jefferson Fisher 41:57 Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Lewis Howes 41:57 Good timing [laughs] .

Jefferson Fisher 41:58 It really was. I'm telling you, I, that's why I, I thank you immensely because that, that was, just to have that, that presence-

Lewis Howes 42:05 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 42:05 ... is, um, to know that I, if I need to, I can call or somebody who's kind of been through-

Lewis Howes 42:12 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 42:12 ... that, that change. And so now-

Lewis Howes 42:14 There's probably only four, maybe five people that I can ha- share everything with-

Jefferson Fisher 42:20 Yeah

Lewis Howes 42:21 ... that will actually not judge me, that will relate to it in some way, that maybe has already had some type of experience like that, that will, you know, have compassion for me. Where if I said these things to other people or publicly or whatever it might be- People just wanna understand or wanna get it. And I'm not saying that-

Jefferson Fisher 42:41 Or take it wrong

Lewis Howes 42:42 Or they might take it wrong. And I'm not saying that I have, like, some unique experience that's greater or better than others.

Jefferson Fisher 42:47 Yeah

Lewis Howes 42:47 It's just a different unique experience-

Jefferson Fisher 42:49 Right

Lewis Howes 42:49 ... from a different position-

Jefferson Fisher 42:52 Yeah

Lewis Howes 42:52 ... of life, and it's not a better, worse than, good, bad. It's just a different perspective.

Jefferson Fisher 42:58 That's right. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 42:59 And it's, um... Yeah, there's, there's only a few people that I can really fully just let loose with.

Jefferson Fisher 43:07 Yeah. But that's, that's, that's smart. I mean, that's biblical. The, the keep your friends very close and few, and the- your, your true ones-

Lewis Howes 43:13 Right, right, right

Jefferson Fisher 43:13 ... that, that will love you, love you no, no matter what.

Lewis Howes 43:15 Yeah. I mean, where I can say all the stuff, the-

Jefferson Fisher 43:17 You got it

Lewis Howes 43:18 ... the messy, the nasty, the-

Jefferson Fisher 43:19 The unfiltered

Lewis Howes 43:20 ... the unfiltered stuff.

Jefferson Fisher 43:21 The hurt, the raw-

Lewis Howes 43:22 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 43:22 ... the all, yeah, all of that. It was-

Lewis Howes 43:23 And, and it's... It w- Human beings need that at every stage of life.

Jefferson Fisher 43:27 Yeah

Lewis Howes 43:28 You know, whether you're 14 and-

Jefferson Fisher 43:30 Right

Lewis Howes 43:30 ... dealing with stuff in your mind or some weird stuff, or you're 40.

Jefferson Fisher 43:34 Yeah, yeah.

Lewis Howes 43:34 You know, we all need those people that we can have those conversations with.

Jefferson Fisher 43:37 Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, um, every, at every stage, at every level, if, if you don't have that outlet, your, your body's gonna carry it for you-

Lewis Howes 43:47 Absolutely

Jefferson Fisher 43:47 ... until it, till it can't anymore.

Lewis Howes 43:49 Until it, it's gonna release in some way.

Jefferson Fisher 43:50 Yeah, un- until it can't. And, and that's, that's what happened with me, was just that, that feeling of big time isolation. I'd been... There were more brands and dif- and like, you know, like people email you and call you and, uh, you need to go with this.

Lewis Howes 44:03 Want something from you or-

Jefferson Fisher 44:04 Yes. And, "Oh, we see this, and you ought to do..." And so you're going, "Wait, man. Look, I just, I gotta get chicken nuggets in the oven right now."

Lewis Howes 44:11 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 44:12 You know what I mean? Like, "Can, can you please..."

Lewis Howes 44:14 Yeah. My-

Jefferson Fisher 44:14 Yeah

Lewis Howes 44:14 ... my kid's crying over here.

Jefferson Fisher 44:14 Right, right.

Lewis Howes 44:15 Let me just deal with this.

Jefferson Fisher 44:15 Like, yeah. Like I get home, it's, it's mayhem, it's bath time. It's, you know, you just... Yeah, there's no, there's no team of anything beyond the guy in the car yet. But it was definitely that feeling of I felt like my life was just, like, starting to just expand in a, in a very surreal way that my body felt despite what my brain was telling it.

Lewis Howes 44:43 What did you realize about yourself from those eight days of panic attacks that you were holding onto, that you were resisting, or that you were not ready for yet?

Jefferson Fisher 44:54 It was a sense of, "Don't let them down." Like, that was a-

Lewis Howes 44:58 What, the number?

Jefferson Fisher 44:59 Uh, yeah.

Lewis Howes 44:59 The number of people watching or following.

Jefferson Fisher 45:01 Yeah. Look, 'cause they'll comment, they message. They, they say incredibly nice, heart felt things. I still get to read them, and they're just the kindest-

Lewis Howes 45:10 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 45:10 ... kindest things that you go, "I do not deserve to read what I just..."

Lewis Howes 45:14 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 45:14 It's like... Yeah, I mean, you just, you just feel like a immediate sense of, uh, humility and-

Lewis Howes 45:20 Feel like an imposter or something?

Jefferson Fisher 45:22 N- not so much imposter of a, "Don't let these people down," because they really do depend on that, that advice for whatever reason. They cho-

Lewis Howes 45:30 That daily message you give them

Jefferson Fisher 45:31 ... they've chosen the guy in the car s- in the driver's seat. They wanna hear what his thoughts are on, on X, Y, and Z, which I love. I truly do love it, and I hope I do it for the rest of my life. But it is, in that moment, in the very first beginning of me saying, "Okay, this is happening. Like, this is, this, I guess this is happening," that was a immediate sense of settling into that ex- that expectation. I also learned that I was getting a bad habit of holding my breath when I was working or doing things.

Lewis Howes 46:08 So you weren't breathing, so your body was like-

Jefferson Fisher 46:10 Yeah, yeah. And so I was-

Lewis Howes 46:11 I know that feeling, man

Jefferson Fisher 46:12 ... yeah, so I was reading, and that part of that panic attack is the same sensation you get when your body's drowning, is because I, I'm l- I'm holding my breath, depriving myself of oxygen, and my body is, like, kicking in.

Lewis Howes 46:27 It's like [gasps] .

Jefferson Fisher 46:28 Yeah, you got it.

Lewis Howes 46:28 It needs more oxygen.

Jefferson Fisher 46:29 You got it. And so without me just thinking in the day, I was catching myself more and more holding my breath.

Lewis Howes 46:35 Or shallow breathing or very-

Jefferson Fisher 46:37 Yes. That's what I'm saying, yeah

Lewis Howes 46:38 ... barely breathing.

Jefferson Fisher 46:39 Like, of course I'm alive, but it's like I'm holding it more than I'm letting it out, and I'm not fully utilizing my body, which tells me that there's that tension, that, like, tightness. Yeah, so once I realized that I was holding my breath, that's what taught me of, I, okay, well, let's, let's fix that.

Lewis Howes 46:57 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 46:58 Because once I started fixing that-

Lewis Howes 47:01 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 47:01 ... much, much, much better.

Lewis Howes 47:02 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 47:03 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 47:03 There's something I've learned over the years about... And I'm curious how you approach this. And I, I don't always get it right, and I don't always, it doesn't always work for me, but a psychological strategy. When someone is, quote-unquote, attacking me or saying nasty things about me that I don't believe are true, or maybe it's just I don't like their way, way they're saying it, and I don't want it to penetrate-

Jefferson Fisher 47:28 Yeah

Lewis Howes 47:28 ... my heart and my soul-

Jefferson Fisher 47:30 Yeah

Lewis Howes 47:30 ... and be reactive and defensive-

Jefferson Fisher 47:32 Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah

Lewis Howes 47:33 ... and ugh, rigid and frustrated and d- all these things.

Jefferson Fisher 47:35 When the, when the, when the brow goes like this.

Lewis Howes 47:37 Yeah, exactly. One of the psychological or therapeutic, uh, strategies that I've learned is to imagine either a, a field, an energetic field around me that I can see it, but then it bounces off-

Jefferson Fisher 47:55 Okay

Lewis Howes 47:56 ... the words-

Jefferson Fisher 47:57 Yeah

Lewis Howes 47:57 ... the intention-

Jefferson Fisher 47:57 Yeah

Lewis Howes 47:57 ... the energy. It comes and then boink, it just goes around me and-

Jefferson Fisher 48:01 Right

Lewis Howes 48:01 ... like water off a duck.

Jefferson Fisher 48:02 I feel like there's a Star Wars reference, but yes.

Lewis Howes 48:04 Yeah, exactly.

Jefferson Fisher 48:04 That's exactly right. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 48:06 Or what I'll do is I will separate the ego from the self, and I'll have the ego over here next to me psychologically.

Jefferson Fisher 48:17 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 48:17 And an image of it, the ego of me here.

Jefferson Fisher 48:19 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 48:20 And it's like, oh, they're just speaking to the ego.

Jefferson Fisher 48:22 Yeah, the detachment.

Lewis Howes 48:23 They're just, "Oh, they're speaking over here."

Jefferson Fisher 48:25 Right.

Lewis Howes 48:25 "They're not actually speaking to me."

Jefferson Fisher 48:26 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 48:26 "They might be looking at me, but it's just, whoop-

Jefferson Fisher 48:28 Right

Lewis Howes 48:28 ... redirecting right here."

Jefferson Fisher 48:30 Right.

Lewis Howes 48:30 And, oh, this doesn't affect me.

Jefferson Fisher 48:32 Yeah. They're talking to that guy.

Lewis Howes 48:33 It just... Yeah. And I saw, um, I think I saw, I think it was Salma Hayek one time talk about this- Um, she was giving an example somewhere online about how, you know, if someone spoke to you really poorly in Spanish and you don't speak Spanish, you're not gonna get defensive.

Jefferson Fisher 48:51 Right.

Lewis Howes 48:51 You're just going to be like, "Well, okay. I have no clue-

Jefferson Fisher 48:54 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 48:54 ... what this crazy person's saying to me."

Jefferson Fisher 48:56 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 48:57 Um, okay, so just act like it's a different language.

Jefferson Fisher 48:59 Right.

Lewis Howes 49:00 You know, there's just different ways of, like, separating yourself from the hurt-

Jefferson Fisher 49:03 Yeah, I like that, too

Lewis Howes 49:04 ... or the, the potential pain.

Jefferson Fisher 49:06 Yes.

Lewis Howes 49:07 What have you learned to support yourself psychologically and emotionally and spiritually-

Jefferson Fisher 49:13 Yeah

Lewis Howes 49:13 ... when this feeling of panic or stress comes your way, or when potential attacks come your way emotionally?

Jefferson Fisher 49:22 So very similar to yours, I... In my mind, I visually have a trash can next to me.

Lewis Howes 49:28 Oh, okay.

Jefferson Fisher 49:28 All right? And I can see it. It's one of those big, huge gallon ones.

Lewis Howes 49:32 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 49:32 Just the black.

Lewis Howes 49:33 Sure.

Jefferson Fisher 49:33 Shiny. It's... Yeah.

Lewis Howes 49:34 We'll put it out there.

Jefferson Fisher 49:35 You got it. Yeah. And I see what they're, they're saying it's just a chute. So I can see the words coming, and I'm sifting.

Lewis Howes 49:44 Uh.

Jefferson Fisher 49:45 Because the issue they're telling me is not the real issue. And so if I hear something that's, uh, offensive, that's not nice, I just, "Okay, that's trash." Let me just... I'm just... I- In my mind, I grab it with my right hand, lift up, and throw it.

Lewis Howes 50:00 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 50:00 Like, that's-

Lewis Howes 50:01 That's cool

Jefferson Fisher 50:01 ... that's what I'll do with my, with my thoughts. And I'm sifting to where if they might have led with something that was snarky, which our inclination is to grab onto that-

Lewis Howes 50:14 Yeah, it's frustrating

Jefferson Fisher 50:14 ... and send it back to them.

Lewis Howes 50:15 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 50:15 Yeah, send it back and be, "Oh, I just... I got a good one coming."

Lewis Howes 50:18 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 50:18 Instead-

Lewis Howes 50:19 Then... Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 50:19 Yeah, you got it. Instead, if I throw that one away, if I just trash it, and then I found the one word that they said at the very end, towards the end, and that was, that was the one word, and then if I focus on that word, then it all starts to kinda crumble. But that's... I just imagine a trash can.

Lewis Howes 50:39 Wow, that's interesting. Now, how do you not... How do you communicate your worth when someone is being offensive or adding a little digs underneath their language? Maybe they're trying to get a message across, um, and they're frustrated, so they're saying a few things that would be offensive to you potentially or maybe hurt you or maybe kind of put you beneath.

Jefferson Fisher 51:04 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 51:04 How do you create a boundary consciously with them so that they don't keep doing that in the future, where it's letting them know, "Hey, this, this type of communication doesn't really work for me. It's not okay," and, and owning your worth-

Jefferson Fisher 51:18 Yeah

Lewis Howes 51:19 ... while also being able to throw it away at the same time and not let it get to you? Like, how do you navigate that so that they don't... that doesn't continue to happen in friendships or-

Jefferson Fisher 51:30 Yeah

Lewis Howes 51:30 ... in relationships or in career-

Jefferson Fisher 51:32 Right

Lewis Howes 51:32 ... where that doesn't continue? Like, I understand we can do it once or twice-

Jefferson Fisher 51:37 Yeah

Lewis Howes 51:37 ... or three times, but if someone's always doing that to us-

Jefferson Fisher 51:39 Right

Lewis Howes 51:40 ... how do we create, create that boundary and, and consciously communicate our worth?

Jefferson Fisher 51:44 Depending on the context of, like, who that person is, you know, who, who they are in your life. So some people you just can't get away from, I mean, or family members, what have you, but it's a balance of your value and then what, what we're gonna just call as what I'm interested in. So if somebody were gonna say something that's offensive in a way and they're, they are pushing me, it's a much more powerful move and very dominant, assertive move to say, "I'm not interested in returning what you just gave."

Lewis Howes 52:16 Oh, wow. That's a, that's a power move.

Jefferson Fisher 52:18 Yeah. Oh, yeah. And see, it's... And-

Lewis Howes 52:21 So if I say, "Jefferson, you know, it was pretty idiotic what you did the other day to me, and I, I just didn't... You know."

Jefferson Fisher 52:29 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 52:29 "You just looked like an idiot, but I... What I really wanna do is, is I want... Moving forward, I want us to go and do this thing instead."

Jefferson Fisher 52:35 Right.

Lewis Howes 52:35 Or whatever. I'm just saying something.

Jefferson Fisher 52:36 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm with you. Yeah, I'm with you.

Lewis Howes 52:38 How would you respond to something like, like that?

Jefferson Fisher 52:41 So if somebody... Well, what you kinda did was you, you, like, hit it into something else that they did. So what I f- I would first do is call that out.

Lewis Howes 52:53 Uh.

Jefferson Fisher 52:53 Say, "Now, well, I, well, I hear two points."

Lewis Howes 52:55 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 52:57 Yeah. And so I'm like, "I'm not gonna skip that." So I'm gonna say-

Lewis Howes 53:00 Okay. So you wanna, you wanna just throw the trash away right away.

Jefferson Fisher 53:02 You got it. Well-

Lewis Howes 53:02 You wanna address it

Jefferson Fisher 53:03 ... well, because they're trying to hide the trash in the good.

Lewis Howes 53:06 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 53:07 And so I... my response is, "Well, I see two different things." So that first point, I don't have an interest in responding to whatever, or I'm gonna say, "Well, maybe I did look like an idiot, but I'm not gonna be, I'm not gonna be holding on to whatever message you're trying to-

Lewis Howes 53:24 Right

Jefferson Fisher 53:24 ... to send to me." But it, it's a, it's a much more dominant move to say, "I have no interest in returning what you're sending."

Lewis Howes 53:32 Right. "I have no interest in calling you what I saw yesterday you do," or something like that. I don't know.

Jefferson Fisher 53:38 You got it. It... But if you use the phrase, "I have no interest," "I have no interest in, in talking about your opinion of my performance."

Lewis Howes 53:47 Oh, interesting.

Jefferson Fisher 53:48 You know what I mean? Like, it's... I- obviously that's not something you wanna start off with 'cause that could sound, that could sound defensive. That can sound issues, but the point of it is when you say, "I have no interest," you're letting them know, like, "I don't have an i-" Uh, it's like you're saying that as you're doing the trash can thing, "I really don't have an interest in... You know, this, this kind of food, it's not great for me. Doesn't really settle well with me. But what does taste good of what you said, you know, about X, Y, and Z." And so you kinda imagine those words as part of... Let's say it's kind of, you know, your diet. "Sorry, I'm a little lactose intolerant, but-

Lewis Howes 54:22 Right

Jefferson Fisher 54:22 ... so let's, let's skip the milk and talk about something else."

Lewis Howes 54:25 What are the three power moves in conversations that really set you up for success in any conversation?

Jefferson Fisher 54:37 Number one is silence, just nothing. So if somebody were to say something that's snarky The, the best move is to say nothing. You just kinda sit back and you look around, you look up, you look off. I'm telling you, 9 times out of 10, they can't take it.

Lewis Howes 54:55 Really?

Jefferson Fisher 54:56 They can't take that silence because then, then it's spread out. You've just exposed... Instead of you covering it up with something else that says, "Excuse me, did, what did you say?" You're just leaving it open.

Lewis Howes 55:10 Oh.

Jefferson Fisher 55:10 Kinda you're like, "That, that really was... That the best foot you're gonna-

Lewis Howes 55:13 Wow

Jefferson Fisher 55:14 ... put out right now?"

Lewis Howes 55:14 You got it.

Jefferson Fisher 55:15 "That one? You go, that the one you, we're gonna choose?" And if you just let that silence sit there, oftentimes sh- and you s- probably heard this, they go, "I shouldn't have said that." You, you gotta give them that chance.

Lewis Howes 55:28 That's number one.

Jefferson Fisher 55:29 Yeah. Number one is you got, you gotta give them the chance of, of that silence. Number two, acknowledge that it could be, without acknowledging that it is. And you say-

Lewis Howes 55:38 Give me an example

Jefferson Fisher 55:38 ... of saying, "Well, maybe so. Maybe you're right."

Lewis Howes 55:43 And not say you're right.

Jefferson Fisher 55:44 No.

Lewis Howes 55:45 But maybe you are.

Jefferson Fisher 55:45 Maybe, maybe you're right. But it's that piece of humility that says, "Yep, well, maybe you're right."

Lewis Howes 55:51 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 55:52 Had a guy once who said, uh, I was deposing him, and you know, all these, "All you lawyers, worst thing that ever happened to America," kind of talk. And I said, "Well, maybe you're right. But today's just gonna be a conversation between us."

Lewis Howes 56:07 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 56:07 "Is it okay if you're just talking to Jefferson?" And he said, "Yeah, I can do that."

Lewis Howes 56:11 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 56:12 And so it's that ability to just say, "Well, maybe so," but I could've, I could've gotten really defensive with him. I could've, I could've chosen to taken that personally instead. I just dropped it. Uh, the other power, other power move is to hold off on the timing. So when you are mad, that's generally not the best time to do it. When, like, when, when you know you've done something wrong and you want somebody to be mad at you, they're like, "Fight me, please." Like, I know I've done something wrong. I, let's, let's have this out. We'll talk about this. Can you, uh, he, uh, you wanna talk about this at noon?"

Lewis Howes 56:49 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 56:50 "Let's talk about it-"

Lewis Howes 56:50 Let's, let's put it in the calendar for tomorrow.

Jefferson Fisher 56:52 You got it.

Lewis Howes 56:52 Let's-

Jefferson Fisher 56:53 Let's, oh. Oh, well, I'm... Okay. And it's, well, I'm, I'm, I'm glad, I'm glad you said that. Well, then, you know, I don't really have my thoughts together on that, but-

Lewis Howes 57:02 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 57:03 ... why don't we call on you to talk about that at, at noon tomorrow? What, what do you think?" Now they're like, "Oh my God," like-

Lewis Howes 57:07 Yeah, yeah

Jefferson Fisher 57:08 ... "I just, I just said something that I shouldn't have said." [laughs] But that's, that's a much better way of, of, uh, of handling it because at, at that point, you have not lost any confidence.

Lewis Howes 57:17 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 57:18 You have not lost your credibility, and you just, you, you've maintained that you're the one in control at all times. And I'm telling you, the key is just starting with your breath-

Lewis Howes 57:28 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 57:28 ... and choosing to be quiet.

Lewis Howes 57:30 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 57:31 And if you were to, if you were to say something to me and I responded right away, like, if you were to say, um, I don't know, "Do you, do you, um, do you enjoy matcha tea?" and I go, "No," versus me thinking, "No." Like, there's just a different connotation to it-

Lewis Howes 57:51 Sure

Jefferson Fisher 57:51 ... when you, when you think about it.

Lewis Howes 57:52 Yeah. Um, about 14 years ago, um, someone gave me a, a line that became one of the most powerful uses of language over the last 14 years to help me get almost anything I want or more of what I already have, and I use it all the time. When I go, uh, order a coffee, I use it. When I go to a hotel and try to get an upgrade, I use it. When I'm working with, uh, partners and collaborators, I use it. And the line is, "What's the chance?" What's the chance you give me a discount on this? What's the chance you can give me an upgrade in this hotel room?

Jefferson Fisher 58:42 Yeah, love it.

Lewis Howes 58:43 What's the chance you can give me in first class?

Jefferson Fisher 58:44 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 58:45 What's the chance we can collaborate in a bigger way?

Jefferson Fisher 58:48 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 58:48 What's the chance you can go a little more on this? And I've used that over and over again because it continues to work, and I almost use it as a game daily.

Jefferson Fisher 58:59 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 58:59 Like, any store I go into, I'm just like, "What's the chance you got 10% off on this?"

Jefferson Fisher 59:04 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 59:04 Just to see-

Jefferson Fisher 59:05 What they say

Lewis Howes 59:06 ... if you can make something happen.

Jefferson Fisher 59:07 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 59:07 'Cause if you don't ask, you're not gonna get it.

Jefferson Fisher 59:10 Right.

Lewis Howes 59:10 And, um, it's just, like, a way to be playful. It's a way to, like, see can I enroll someone in something that I, maybe I shouldn't be getting-

Jefferson Fisher 59:18 I like that

Lewis Howes 59:18 ... but I'm gonna get.

Jefferson Fisher 59:19 Yes.

Lewis Howes 59:20 And it often works, where the unexpected happens. Is there another line of communication that you use, maybe even unknowingly-

Jefferson Fisher 59:32 Yeah

Lewis Howes 59:32 ... that you use consistently that seems to just help you enroll people in more of what you want?

Jefferson Fisher 59:39 So I do, I absolutely use the what's the chance.

Lewis Howes 59:43 Really?

Jefferson Fisher 59:43 Yeah. So I, I will use that when it feels like a-

Lewis Howes 59:46 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 59:47 ... like a stalemate between-

Lewis Howes 59:48 Oh, yeah

Jefferson Fisher 59:48 ... the other attorney, and, "Now, look, what's the chance that your client's gonna be able to do X, Y, and Z?" Also, I will try to separate the attorney from the client, same way I do with, like, the reception clerk versus the hotel. I, I, I make sure that I acknowledge them as the person 'cause I acknowledge their struggle of what they're going through.

Lewis Howes 1:00:15 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:16 And so if I talk to the attorney of, "Look, I can only imagine, you know, all the updates you're, you're having to do or all the work you're putting through. I, I know that this is how, you're doing the best thing you can for your client. But, I mean, between me and you, what, what, what's the chance that we can do X, Y, and Z? Or if I were to do, or if I were to say, or if my client were... If I were to encourage my client to do this, is that something that I should do?" And it gives them a, something to think about.

Lewis Howes 1:00:46 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:46 The same way, like, at a, let's say, at a hotel or something like that- I, I can only imagine you just been... How, how long's your shift?

Lewis Howes 1:00:53 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:53 Yeah, seven hours? Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's gonna be... And so you just, yeah, you kind of create that connection with them that says, "I'm talking to you individually as a person rather than seeing you as the whole," then because that's who they are.

Lewis Howes 1:01:04 Yeah, exactly. That's powerful. I wanted to go back to the, uh, the panic attacks for a moment. Um, 'cause it sounds like you, you really studied and researched a lot on how you could manage and, and, and have a better relationship with the anxiety or the stress that you were having for those eight days. Have you had more panic attacks since that moment?

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:26 They've gotten less and less and less.

Lewis Howes 1:01:28 Less and less.

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:28 Uh, because-

Lewis Howes 1:01:29 Maybe like 5, 10 minutes at a time or something.

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:30 Yeah, so, uh, well, I haven't had, I probably haven't had a panic attack. I, I've gotten very close probably in the last, like, three weeks, but what it is is, like, a s- sense of boiling water. Like, I can feel the water boil, and then I m- and I can feel it in my body. Like, I can feel it in my fingers of-

Lewis Howes 1:01:48 Like tingly, like a-

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:49 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I'm typically never somebody to shake my leg, but if all of a sudden my leg is shaking, then I'm like, "Okay, something's up." And that al- like, that'll tell me right away of, all right, what, what, what are we doing? What's going on? Be able to kind of check in with myself and, and how that's been, but it's, it's progress-

Lewis Howes 1:02:09 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:09 ... much better.

Lewis Howes 1:02:09 Getting better.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:10 Yeah. It, it, it really has. Therapy helps.

Lewis Howes 1:02:12 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:13 And, uh, in the... That was really the source, was not feeling alone in this kind of ecosystem-

Lewis Howes 1:02:21 There

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:22 ... that I didn't ask for. Like, that, this was never my goal of, like, if I can only get so many-

Lewis Howes 1:02:27 Followers. Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:27 ... yeah. It was like, uh, let's just go, I don't know, I got a few minutes. Like, let's talk to my phone.

Lewis Howes 1:02:32 Yeah. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:33 Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:02:34 What is the... What has the relationship been like with your wife and your kids since experiencing the rise of your audience, but also the stress and, and panic that you've experienced over the last six months? How has your wife shown up for you and, and how has it made you relate to your family differently?

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:58 Well, having kids has ma- made me much more just empathetic as a, as a person, and I'll tell you that it's, it is a way that we relate to each other is when I see them start to get really emotional, I can see myself in it. Uh, my son looks a lot like me, and so, like, I can... It's very much this kind of weird inner child, like, dialogue.

Lewis Howes 1:03:21 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:22 Like I'm telling him things that I wish I could've-

Lewis Howes 1:03:25 Oh, man

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:25 ... I, I would've been told, uh, you know, "Hey, man, it's okay to cry."

Lewis Howes 1:03:29 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:29 "Just let it out. Let it out." And I, I was never told that, but I wanna- I'm not gonna make that mistake. And so my son is extremely water works all the time, and I love it. I mean, he's emotional in movies. I love it. You know, I was... And so I, to, to see that where I go, "No, no, no," I've, I've, I've had that mistake of trying to put on this-

Lewis Howes 1:03:54 Jefferson's got it all together

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:55 ... this mask. Yeah, yeah, this I got it all, I got it all together. It's, it's, you are... Just let it out, man.

Lewis Howes 1:04:01 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:01 It's, it's all good. It's all good. And he will. He'll just cry and say, "I can't help it." And I'll say, "You don't need to."

Lewis Howes 1:04:06 You're good, man.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:07 "You're good." He's, he's very... Both of my kids are, are extremely, um, empathetic with, with movies.

Lewis Howes 1:04:15 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:15 Um, I, I shared something before of... This was, like, not that long ago, and my son says, "How your day was, Dad?" "Th- it was good, buddy. We, it was, it was, it was good." And he was like, "What'd, what'd you do?" I was like, "Well, it was, it was just good. It was a good day. It was fine." Truthfully, it was not good.

Lewis Howes 1:04:38 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:39 Like, it was, it was a really horrible... It was a rough day.

Lewis Howes 1:04:42 Yeah, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:42 It was a rough day. I was tired. And later on that evening, he came up to me again and he said, "So why'd you tell me your day was good when it wasn't?"

Lewis Howes 1:04:51 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:51 I said, "What?" He said, "You didn't... You said you said it was good, but it didn't, you didn't say it like it was good." I was like, "How did you, how did you know?" He's like, "You said it like it wasn't good."

Lewis Howes 1:05:01 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:01 "You said it like it was bad," or whatever.

Lewis Howes 1:05:02 They feel everything.

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:03 Yes. And I was like, "How are you this young?" And, like, he could already sense that, uh, he told me he was good, he wasn't.

Lewis Howes 1:05:11 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:12 And so that, that kind of aspect of it. When you say how has my wife shown up for me, she's allowed me to have the time to kind of explore, "Hey, you need to make sure you're taking care of yourself." And she's awesome at s- supporting anything that I'm after, and we support both of our careers. She has a full-time career as her doing her thing in, in, in school and school law, and I have my, my legal career. And in terms of the social media stuff, it doesn't affect anything. Like, it, it can... You could call it Finstagram.

Lewis Howes 1:05:44 Right, right.

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:44 Like, nobody at my house... It doesn't exist at my house. It's just, uh, your dad, mom, kids-

Lewis Howes 1:05:50 Right

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:51 ... me, him.

Lewis Howes 1:05:52 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:52 That's all, that's all it is. Now she's very supportive of it, and they know that every once in a while Dad'll make a video.

Lewis Howes 1:05:59 Sure.

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:00 So because they wanna make videos.

Lewis Howes 1:06:01 I'm curious. With your upbringing, which sounds like you had a great upbringing, but also things that maybe you wish you would've had or experienced in certain ways from parents or life, and with what you're experiencing now from, you know, building your career, getting married at a young age-

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:18 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:06:19 ... in today's society and, and now having this kind of following and presence, what are three lessons, if you could only teach three lessons to your kids right now, what would those three lessons be that you wish you would've known growing up or that you did know and you want them to know?

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:39 One would be always be authentic to who you are personally. Don't ever try to be anybody else than, than who you are. I can tell you that any time I've felt like I've needed to be somebody else, it was the wrong call every time that I tried to be either more or less than just exactly who I am. You know, I, I see it as just a floor in an elevator. Doesn't mean it's a better floor or not, it just, you need to be exactly where you're, you're meant to be.

Lewis Howes 1:07:05 Sure.

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:06 Two is, it's okay to, to feel like there are... It's okay to make mistakes. I grew up in a house where it was very... It was a lot of it, I'll admit, let's put it on myself, expectations of being the best at everything you could-

Lewis Howes 1:07:28 Sure, sure

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:28 ... you could be at, at whatever it was. I just enjoyed it. And, but the understanding that they don't have to put that pressure on, on, on themselves. And, and number three is, be kind to everybody. Kindness, kindness never, it, it never changes. People value it now. They, they always, they always have.

Lewis Howes 1:07:50 We could talk for hours, man, but I wanna wrap things up here in a few minutes. Um, Jefferson_Fisher on Instagram.

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:58 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:07:58 Uh, als- all over social media you can find you. I'll have everything linked up there.

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:03 Oh, cool. Thank you.

Lewis Howes 1:08:03 You've got a, you got a book you're working on that we'll probably have you back on in the future when that comes out, but I want people to follow you on Instagram-

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:09 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:08:10 ... TikTok, Facebook, all the places. Hopefully we'll get you on YouTube soon.

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:13 [laughs] Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:08:15 And, um, you do a daily video, man. You're vid- I mean, almost every day it seems like. It's like every day you're-

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:21 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:08:21 ... giving wisdom, you're giving inspiration from daily lessons, and law, and your experience, and life, and-

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:27 Right

Lewis Howes 1:08:28 ... it's really inspiring to see you create from a place of generosity, from a place of service. So I wanna acknowledge you for the consistency, and I also wanna acknowledge you for opening up about the panics that you've expressed.

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:42 Yeah. That was hard.

Lewis Howes 1:08:43 And, and being vulnerable with your community and saying, "Hey, listen guys, this is something I've never experienced. And, you know, I love having this community, but also I feel this sense of pressure and this overwhelm that I've never experienced in my life." And, and I think it's powerful to be talking about it, because what we keep hidden-

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:00 Right

Lewis Howes 1:09:00 ... and we hide continues to manifest and hurt us.

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:04 You got it.

Lewis Howes 1:09:04 And stress us. So the fact that you're talking about it is probably allowing you to release some.

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:09 It really is.

Lewis Howes 1:09:10 And relax some.

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:11 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:09:11 And I'm not saying it's gonna solve every issue you have mentally or emotionally-

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:15 Right

Lewis Howes 1:09:15 ... but it's allowing you to set yourself free. So I acknowledge you for not having it all put together, not saying the perfect thing every time, and allowing yourself to express how you feel, which sounds like is what your body needs.

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:29 Yeah. Thank you very much. That, that's very well put.

Lewis Howes 1:09:31 Yeah. So I acknowledge you for that. Um, it's interesting, this, a question I ask a lot of people... I've got two final questions for you, but before I ask those, there's a question I ask a lot of people on here who rise to success or audience growth quickly within a period of time, of seeming overnight or months or a year, right? Where they get this big audience. And I ask this question, and I'm just curious, 'cause I want people to listen and hear the response. So if you could go back before you posted your first Instagram video a year and a half ago or whenever it was, or when you did it and you didn't have that many followers.

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:15 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:10:15 If you could go back and ask yourself, on a scale of one to 10, how much inner peace and self-love you had for yourself, 10 being a very high level in a humble way, one being zero peace, all chaos and stress inside of you.

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:36 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:10:37 Where were you on a scale of one to 10 before the rise of social media success? 10 being very peaceful internally and calm and confident and less stress, and one being chaos.

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:51 I would probably say I was a, I was a solid eight. There was a sense of, "You sure you wanna put yourself on the phone in, in your car? You know friends are gonna see this, right?"

Lewis Howes 1:11:00 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:01 You know, like, I'm not worried about strangers.

Lewis Howes 1:11:02 Sure.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:02 You worry about your friends.

Lewis Howes 1:11:03 Sure.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:04 You know, it's, it's easy... You could have all these followers, but who you really care about, sometimes they, "Wait, my, my friends saw this and they didn't-

Lewis Howes 1:11:11 They don't like it. Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:12 ... they didn't like it."

Lewis Howes 1:11:12 What do they think about me? Yeah, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:13 You, you... Then it's much easier to get in your head about the people-

Lewis Howes 1:11:16 Sure

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:16 ... that are in your circle-

Lewis Howes 1:11:17 Sure

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:17 ... than the people that are outside.

Lewis Howes 1:11:19 So you're a solid eight-

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:20 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:11:20 ... before you started doing all this.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:22 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:11:22 And then where would you say you currently are on, you know, for the last few months consistently?

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:27 Yeah. How, how I've been, I, I would say I'm a nine right now.

Lewis Howes 1:11:32 So you have more peace-

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:33 I have more peace

Lewis Howes 1:11:33 ... and more self-love. Really?

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:34 Yeah. Well, it, had it not been for what I went through at the beginning of this year-

Lewis Howes 1:11:40 Okay

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:40 ... with the anxiety.

Lewis Howes 1:11:40 Interesting.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:41 Because it's made me, it's really made me hug myself in a way.

Lewis Howes 1:11:45 Oh, interesting.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:46 And, and to... Because I would, I would get myself in a place of... I, I've always been pretty good at, "Oh, okay, I'll do a video, and they'll either like it or they won't, I guess." You know? You just go into the house and you live life. But it is a different aspect here of, I very much feel that, that I am cultivating a community of like-minded people that... I mean, when I posted that video of explaining about my anxiety, that was a very difficult video for me to even get out. It's a very difficult video for me to even watch.

Lewis Howes 1:12:24 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:25 But the, like, outpouring of love that came from that was just... Now it feels like I have a lot more... I, it's weird, I feel more connected to them-

Lewis Howes 1:12:34 Interesting. Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:34 ... in a way than, than I did before.

Lewis Howes 1:12:36 Well, vulnerability breeds connection. So-

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:39 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:12:39 ... you were opening-

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:39 That's, that's true

Lewis Howes 1:12:40 ... in a different way.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:41 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:12:41 Where were you on that scale, you know, at the beginning of the year when you were experiencing that month of panic?

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:48 I, I was a two maybe.

Lewis Howes 1:12:49 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:49 Yeah, it was not, it was not good. From, from when it first started-

Lewis Howes 1:12:53 Sure

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:53 ... to w- about the time right before the panic attack.

Lewis Howes 1:12:56 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:56 Yeah, it wa- I, I had fallen far

Lewis Howes 1:12:58 This is, you know, and this is what I want people to, to understand, because a lot of people that wanna have more success, more followers-

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:05 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:13:05 ... more financial opportunities, more things coming their way. And I don't know anyone, maybe one person, was happier and more peaceful a year or two after the, the big success came-

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:20 Yes

Lewis Howes 1:13:20 ... quickly.

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:21 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:13:21 They were always a couple below what they were right before the press came, the opportunities-

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:27 You got it

Lewis Howes 1:13:27 ... came, as they hadn't learned yet how to manage and navigate it.

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:31 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:13:31 It sounds like you're learning now how to navigate it, where you feel peaceful-

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:35 Right

Lewis Howes 1:13:35 ... confident, calm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:36 But had I not, I'd be right there with them.

Lewis Howes 1:13:38 And just trying to s- keep your head above water.

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:41 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:13:41 Right? And it, and it always shocks me, I guess it shouldn't shock me anymore now, but most of us are not prepared emotionally or psychologically for audience growth that quickly, for financial growth that quickly. Although we think we want certain things-

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:58 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:13:59 ... but we may not be emotionally, mentally, physically ready-

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:03 Right

Lewis Howes 1:14:03 ... for the psychological pressure, which is what it sounds like you had. This pressure of this, "Now I have this audience, I have to make sure I deliver and don't, don't-

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:12 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:14:12 ... give them the wrong information. What if, what if I, what if I let them down?

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:15 Right. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:14:15 This pressure which you can't really get away from unless you stop posting.

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:20 Yeah, unless you just stop. Yeah. I, I, this was not something I sought out to do. It was like, "I'm gonna be an influencer, doggone." No, it was like a I, I'm just gonna make a video and let's see how it went.

Lewis Howes 1:14:29 Try to help a few people.

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:30 Yeah, yeah. Let's, let's try. What do I like talking about? And that was the thing, was I did it because I like talking about it, and if they like listening, I guess they'll listen. And then I asked people to follow me at the end of it, turns out they did. And then it was just like a whole different, uh, whole different ballgame, where all of a sudden you look around and go, "Wait." And if I com- if I compare this to the, the size of my current city and my town that I'm in-

Lewis Howes 1:14:54 [laughs] This is like 50 times-

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:56 You know?

Lewis Howes 1:14:56 ... the size of that, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:56 Yeah, yeah. Oh, it's not even... Yeah, not even close.

Lewis Howes 1:14:58 Right, right.

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:59 So it's, it's, uh... That becomes... And then I had a buddy of mine who was like, "Oh, you know, you have X amount of followers, that's like X amount of sta- like Dallas Cowboy Stadium or something." And I was like, "Why would you tell me that?"

Lewis Howes 1:15:14 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:14 [laughs] It was the first thing that kinda came to mind.

Lewis Howes 1:15:16 Sure, sure.

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:17 But it's like you said, absolutely, you... I was not emotionally prepared on, on that level for that amount of eyes, that amount of pressure. And it wasn't until that my body literally shut down-

Lewis Howes 1:15:32 Wow

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:33 ... that said, "Now, we gotta, we gotta wake up and make sure you're taking care of yourself," because that, that two you were at was quickly starting to go into the negative.

Lewis Howes 1:15:42 Exactly. And that's where real bad stuff happens.

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:45 Big time. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:15:46 If you don't address it. So I acknowledge you, man, for, for doing the work and for continually doing it, because it's... Healing's a journey.

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:52 Yeah, very much.

Lewis Howes 1:15:53 And so I'm, I'm glad you're on that journey, and feel free to reach out anytime you want some support-

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:57 I-

Lewis Howes 1:15:57 ... or just to chat.

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:57 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. No, it, it's meant so much that you've, that you've been here.

Lewis Howes 1:16:01 For sure, man.

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:01 That, that, that means a lot to me.

Lewis Howes 1:16:03 For sure, man. This is a question I ask everyone towards the end called the three truths. So imagine you get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day on earth. You get to accomplish all the dreams and experiences you wanna have. But for whatever reason, all of your material, your content, your videos, the books you make, all these things, they have to go to the next place with you or they're no longer in this world.

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:25 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:16:26 This conversation is gone. But it's your last day on earth, and you get to leave behind three truths, three lessons you would share with the world, and this is all we have to remember your wisdom by. What would be those three truths or lessons for you?

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:42 Number one is the best pie- piece of advice I received from my grandfather, who was an old East Texas attorney. He said, "Boy, you can't look back and plow a straight row." That's always stuck with me, meaning encouraging people to, to be in the moment, in the present. If you look at what you're doing rather than looking for the next worry, your, your head's always gonna be in the, the, the right, the right place. Number two is you treat people how you wanna be treated. Just that, that very basic golden rule that we've all heard. But sometimes it's the things we've heard the most that we really have soaked up the least, and too many times the, uh, I've... you know, we skip over it. And number three would be that at any time that you can, show person kindness, because you, you'll never regret it. There's so many things that I feel like generation- generationally in, in our existence that we just got wrong. It wasn't our fault, we just weren't ready. Like, we thought medicine was something different versus what we think medicine is now, or you look at how we handled punishment or entertainment, I mean, versus now. But, like, kindness is... It's not affected from inflation or recession or-

Lewis Howes 1:18:04 Right

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:04 ... it doesn't depreciate. A kindness, a little kindness can... invaluable.

Lewis Howes 1:18:09 I love it. Those are great truths, man. Final question, Jefferson, what's your definition of greatness?

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:14 Greatness is being able to show up for who you are in every level and every stage that you, that you're meant to be in a way that spreads joy to everybody that you touch.

Speaker 1:18:23 Curiosity is an anti-fragile characteristic.

Lewis Howes 1:18:25 Mm.

Speaker 1:18:26 And curiosity is a highly positive frame of mind. Curiosity is highly positive. There's cur- every- everybody, all these different places talk about curiosity as an avenue to success for a variety of reasons. You pick up more, you're interested, you pay attention. The other person feels very connected with-