"FOLLOW This Life Advice To CHANGE Your Future In 2023!" | Jordan Peterson

1. 0:00 – 1:47

   Why an aim is necessary: meaning vs. bitterness and cruelty

   1. JPJordan Peterson0:00

      Now you've got your thing to aim at. Think, "Well, I'm motivated, 'cause I got my thing t- thing to aim at."

   2. LHLewis Howes0:04

      Yeah.

   3. JPJordan Peterson0:04

      It's like you're not as motivated as you could be, 'cause you don't yet have your thing to run away from. 'Cause if you really wanna be motivated, you wanna be... If you don't have a noble aim and, and, and if that isn't imbuing your life with sustainable meaning, then you fall prey to all the catastrophe, the, the pain and the anxiety and the anger that that suffering generates, and that makes you bitter.

   4. LHLewis Howes0:27

      Because what I'm hearing you say is that, and correct me if I'm wrong, we must have an aim in our life no matter what stage of life we're in.

   5. JPJordan Peterson0:37

      Mm-hmm.

   6. LHLewis Howes0:37

      And if we don't have some type of aim, even if for a few months of an aim of going somewhere-

   7. JPJordan Peterson0:41

      Mm

   8. LHLewis Howes0:41

      ... a direction-

   9. JPJordan Peterson0:43

      Mm

   10. LHLewis Howes0:43

       ... we're gonna, the suffering's gonna be even more suffering.

   11. JPJordan Peterson0:45

       Mm. Mm. Pointless.

   12. LHLewis Howes0:46

       Because, because we're already gonna face the greatest challenges in life.

   13. JPJordan Peterson0:49

       That's right. You're stuck with it.

   14. LHLewis Howes0:50

       We're already struggling.

   15. JPJordan Peterson0:51

       That's right. There's no way out of it.

   16. LHLewis Howes0:53

       Adversity is coming no matter what.

   17. JPJordan Peterson0:54

       That's right.

   18. LHLewis Howes0:55

       If we have big goals or-

   19. JPJordan Peterson0:56

       Mm

   20. LHLewis Howes0:56

       ... small little goal or whatever it may be.

   21. JPJordan Peterson0:58

       Mm.

   22. LHLewis Howes0:59

       But it's gonna be less suffering if we-

   23. JPJordan Peterson1:02

       Mm-hmm

   24. LHLewis Howes1:02

       ... have an aim.

   25. JPJordan Peterson1:03

       Yeah. Well, and, and n- not only that, it's worse than that even, because-

   26. LHLewis Howes1:07

       [laughs]

   27. JPJordan Peterson1:07

       ... the suffering is pain.

   28. LHLewis Howes1:08

       'Cause there's zero meaning.

   29. JPJordan Peterson1:09

       W- well, the suffering is pain, and the suffering is anxiety and uncertainty, and the suffering is hopelessness, but the consequence of all that is that you get bitter.

   30. LHLewis Howes1:17

       Mm.
2. 1:47 – 2:55

   Mapping your past to orient your future: the Past Authoring Program

   1. JPJordan Peterson1:47

      That's for sure. So then the question is, what should your aim be? Now, we have a program.

   2. LHLewis Howes1:52

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JPJordan Peterson1:52

      It's one of the things I wanted to talk to you about today.

   4. LHLewis Howes1:54

      Yeah.

   5. JPJordan Peterson1:54

      I, I have this website called selfauthoring.com, and that program helps people write about their life. And so there's a Past Authoring Program. To, to, to establish your aim, you have to know where you are. It's like you're trying to orient yourself on a map. You can't orient yourself on a map unless you know where you are.

   6. LHLewis Howes2:12

      Yeah.

   7. JPJordan Peterson2:12

      You also have to know where you're going, right? So those are the two relevant things. The Past Authoring Program helps people write about their lives, so it's a guided autobiography. We ask people to break their life up into six epochs, six sections, and then to write about the emotionally important events in those s- in those epochs and to detail out why, why the positive things happened and why more of that could conceivably happen in the future, and to detail out why the negative things happened, and to try to understand why, with an aim to not replicating them in the future. Because the purpose of memory isn't to remember the past. The purpose of memory is so that you, you figure out what went wrong when something went wrong so you don't duplicate it in the future.

   8. LHLewis Howes2:55

      Mm. Yeah.

3. 2:55 – 4:13

   Why painful memories persist and how writing helps you ‘fix it’

   1. JPJordan Peterson2:55

      So that's the purpose of memory. And the Past Authoring Program can help people catch up, and you know you have to catch up if you have memories that are older than about a year and a half that still cause you emotional pain when you think about them.

   2. LHLewis Howes3:07

      Mm.

   3. JPJordan Peterson3:07

      Or if you dwell on them, they come spontaneously back to mind. Means you haven't, it means that there's part of your life that you haven't mapped out properly, and it still has emotional valence that's gripping you, and you wanna sh-

   4. LHLewis Howes3:17

      You're still holding onto that story.

   5. JPJordan Peterson3:19

      Or it's still holding onto you.

   6. LHLewis Howes3:20

      Hmm, interesting.

   7. JPJordan Peterson3:21

      Right, right.

   8. LHLewis Howes3:21

      You haven't let it go.

   9. JPJordan Peterson3:22

      Yeah, yeah. Well, you haven't been able to navigate your way through it. You, there's a pitfall there that you fell in, and you don't know how to avoid similar pitfalls in the future, and that's why your brain-

   10. LHLewis Howes3:31

       So you repeat it

   11. JPJordan Peterson3:32

       ... won't let it go.

   12. LHLewis Howes3:33

       Oh.

   13. JPJordan Peterson3:33

       'Cause it's saying, that's what the anxiety systems do. It's like, "This happened to you. It wasn't good. This happened to you. It wasn't good. This happened to you. It wasn't good. Fix it, fix it, fix it, fix it. That will never go away unless you fix it."

   14. LHLewis Howes3:43

       How do you fix it?

   15. JPJordan Peterson3:44

       Well, you have to figure out why it happened, right? That's the first thing is, like, how did you, how was it that that situation arose to pull you down?

   16. LHLewis Howes3:52

       Mm.

   17. JPJordan Peterson3:52

       And that's not simple. That's why, well, that's why we have the writing program.

   18. LHLewis Howes3:55

       Right.

   19. JPJordan Peterson3:55

       'Cause it's complicated to think it through.

   20. LHLewis Howes3:57

       [clears throat]

   21. JPJordan Peterson3:57

       But you, but if you face it, and you, and you meditate on it, let's say, and, so and you do this voluntarily, there's a h- pretty high probability that you'll be able to decrease the probability that it will be repeated in the future. So, and-

   22. LHLewis Howes4:11

       And this-

   23. JPJordan Peterson4:11

       [clears throat]

   24. LHLewis Howes4:12

       Go ahead. I don't wanna cut you off.

4. 4:13 – 6:20

   Present vs. Future Authoring: strengths, weaknesses, and building a workable plan

   1. JPJordan Peterson4:13

      Oh, well, well, we, the, the second part of the program helps people do an analysis of their virtues and their faults.

   2. LHLewis Howes4:20

      Mm.

   3. JPJordan Peterson4:20

      Same sort of idea. What's good about you that you could capitalize on? What's weak about you that you need to fix so that it doesn't bring you down, right? And that's the Present Authoring. But the Future Authoring Program is probably most relevant to-

   4. LHLewis Howes4:32

      Mm

   5. JPJordan Peterson4:32

      ... you and your listeners, because you're interested in helping people establish aims. And so we already talked about the fact that you need an aim in life, or, or that's where you derive your meaning, and without that, things go to hell, and, and as literally as that can be taken. And so, but it's not easy t- to ask people to say... Well, it's easy to ask them, "What do you want in your life?" It's a very hard question to answer, 'cause it's too vague-

   6. LHLewis Howes4:57

      Right, right, right, right

   7. JPJordan Peterson4:58

      ... and grand, eh? So we help, in the Future Authoring Program, we help people break that down. So, okay, so here, here's the situation. So you put yourself in the right frame of mind. So what's the right frame of mind? It's like rule two in this book. Treat yourself like you're someone responsible for helping. You're someone that you are responsible for helping. So what that means is you have to start from the presupposition that despite all your flaws and insufficiencies, that it's worth having you around and that it would be okay if things were better for you. So you need to take care of yourself, like you're taking care of someone you care for. So there's a bit of a detachment in that. And then the next thing is, okay, so now look three to five years down the road.

   8. LHLewis Howes5:37

      Mm.

   9. JPJordan Peterson5:37

      Okay, you get to have what you need and want, assuming you're being reasonable-

   10. LHLewis Howes5:40

       Mm

   11. JPJordan Peterson5:40

       ... and that you actually want it, which means you're willing to make the sacrifices that would, that would make it possible.

   12. LHLewis Howes5:45

       What do you mean by reasonable?

   13. JPJordan Peterson5:47

       Well, that, that's, that's the next thing. Well, within your grasp, that would be something. You know-

   14. LHLewis Howes5:52

       What if something is out of your grasp, but- You still push hard enough to potentially get it

   15. JPJordan Peterson5:58

       Well, then you need, then you need an incremental plan, right?

   16. LHLewis Howes6:00

       Got it. Yeah, yeah, of course.

   17. JPJordan Peterson6:00

       You need to break that goal down into steps that you-

   18. LHLewis Howes6:02

       Not some crazy goal within a year that's like-

   19. JPJordan Peterson6:04

       Yeah

   20. LHLewis Howes6:04

       ... you haven't even done the work to master a skill yet. Yeah, I got it.

   21. JPJordan Peterson6:07

       Yeah. Well, that's it, and you can have a high-end goal-

   22. LHLewis Howes6:09

       Right

   23. JPJordan Peterson6:09

       ... and more power to you if you do-

   24. LHLewis Howes6:10

       But the timeframe

   25. JPJordan Peterson6:10

       ... but you need it. Yeah. Well, you need a pathway to it.

   26. LHLewis Howes6:13

       Yeah, absolutely.

   27. JPJordan Peterson6:13

       You know, if you're, if it's 10 stories up above you, you need a staircase to get there, right?

   28. LHLewis Howes6:17

       Right.

   29. JPJordan Peterson6:17

       And so you have to build the staircase, too.

   30. LHLewis Howes6:19

       Right. Right.

5. 6:20 – 10:35

   Designing your life domains and how aims reshape perception

   1. JPJordan Peterson6:20

      And so in the Future Authoring program, so you're asked, first of all, okay, here's, you get to have what you want and need. That's the proposition, but you have to aim at it. You have to define it and aim at it. So he- so then the first thing is, okay, um, if you could put your family together the way you wanted it to be-

   2. LHLewis Howes6:36

      Mm-hmm

   3. JPJordan Peterson6:36

      ... what would that look like? And so that might be your siblings and your parents, but that also might be, you know, your wife or your husband and your kids, assuming that you're at that point in your life. If you could have the family you wanted, what would that look like, right? Okay. Career, same thing. You get to have the career or the job that, that is within your grasp, necessary, and, and suitable for, for you-

   4. LHLewis Howes6:58

      Mm-hmm

   5. JPJordan Peterson6:58

      ... if you were taking care of yourself. How are you gonna educate yourself? 'Cause you're not as smart as you should be. There's a lot more things you need to know, so you gotta keep learning and moving forward.

   6. LHLewis Howes7:07

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JPJordan Peterson7:07

      So you need to plan for that. How are you gonna take care of yourself mentally and physically, right? So, um, how are you going to avoid the, the, the catastrophic temptations, for example, of drugs and alcohol? Because that pulls a lot of people down, and you need a plan for that. You gonna be a social drinker? How much are you gonna drink? How much is too much? What about your drug use?

   8. LHLewis Howes7:25

      Mm.

   9. JPJordan Peterson7:25

      You gotta regulate that so it isn't a pitfall. How are you gonna use your time meaningful and productively outside of work? 'Cause you need a plan for that. So that's, um... and there's one other that, that I'm, that's stuck in my mind-

   10. LHLewis Howes7:36

       There's six of them you said, right?

   11. JPJordan Peterson7:36

       ... at the moment. Yeah, I think there's seven initial questions, and I don't, I don't remember the last one. Um, oh, intimate relationship, of course.

   12. LHLewis Howes7:43

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JPJordan Peterson7:43

       So you have, you, do you want a, do you want a long-term, stable, intimate relationship? And if you do, then how would you like that to lay itself out? You gotta have a vision for that because if you don't have a vision, you're not gonna aim at it.

   14. LHLewis Howes7:55

       Absolutely.

   15. JPJordan Peterson7:55

       And if you don't aim at it, then you won't even see the opportunities when they arise. That's the thing that's so cool. I wrote about this in chapter 10, which is Be Precise In Your Speech. It's a chapter about the fact that aims structure your perceptions. So for example, once you aim at something, your brain, literally, the perceptual structures in your brain, in your visual cortex, reorient themselves to calculate a pathway to the aim. And then what they show you in the world is obstacles to that path and-

   16. LHLewis Howes8:23

       Mm-hmm

   17. JPJordan Peterson8:23

       ... and open pathways to the path. That's actually how the world reveals itself. Just like, just like when you're driving in a car and you have a map, and you, or you aim at a particular place, then all the things that are-

   18. LHLewis Howes8:35

       Right

   19. JPJordan Peterson8:35

       ... related to that place show up in the world. It's exactly the same thing.

   20. LHLewis Howes8:38

       Yeah.

   21. JPJordan Peterson8:38

       'Cause you are traveling through time and space, right? And you need a map. And so, so after you answer these seven questions, and you're encouraged to do it badly-

   22. LHLewis Howes8:48

       Mm-hmm

   23. JPJordan Peterson8:48

       ... because you don't have to get-

   24. LHLewis Howes8:49

       Just complete it

   25. JPJordan Peterson8:49

       ... perfectionistic.

   26. LHLewis Howes8:50

       Yeah.

   27. JPJordan Peterson8:50

       Just complete it, right.

   28. LHLewis Howes8:51

       [laughs]

   29. JPJordan Peterson8:51

       Because a bad plan is better than no plan. Gives you something to improve.

   30. LHLewis Howes8:55

       Mm-hmm.
6. 10:35 – 14:12

   Motivation needs both a destination and a ‘hell’ to avoid

   1. JPJordan Peterson10:35

      Write it out. Okay, so then that's the first part. The second part of the exercise, so now you've got your thing to aim at. You think, "Well, I'm motivated, 'cause I got my thing to, thing to aim at."

   2. LHLewis Howes10:43

      Yeah.

   3. JPJordan Peterson10:43

      It's like you're not as motivated as you could be, 'cause you don't yet have your thing to run away from. 'Cause if you really wanna be motivated, you wanna be going somewhere, and you wanna be not going somewhere else.

   4. LHLewis Howes10:54

      Which typically is a pain, right?

   5. JPJordan Peterson10:56

      Mm-hmm. Yes, pain or anxiety.

   6. LHLewis Howes10:57

      Or a suffering or s-

   7. JPJordan Peterson10:58

      Yeah. Some, some domain of suffering and guilt, let's say.

   8. LHLewis Howes11:00

      Yeah. I don't wanna feel this anymore.

   9. JPJordan Peterson11:02

      Yes, exactly. Exactly.

   10. LHLewis Howes11:04

       Yeah.

   11. JPJordan Peterson11:04

       So, so the other thing we ask people is, okay, now take stock of your weaknesses and imagine that you let them multiply, you got hopeless-

   12. LHLewis Howes11:12

       Mm-hmm

   13. JPJordan Peterson11:12

       ... and you augered in and things were as bad for you as they could be in three to five years.

   14. LHLewis Howes11:16

       What are some examples of weaknesses that people might have?

   15. JPJordan Peterson11:20

       They lie.

   16. LHLewis Howes11:21

       Uh-huh.

   17. JPJordan Peterson11:21

       They procrastinate.

   18. LHLewis Howes11:22

       Yeah.

   19. JPJordan Peterson11:22

       They avoid. They're grandiose. They're narcissistic. They're undisciplined. Uh, they're nihilistic, they're aimless, all of those things.

   20. LHLewis Howes11:31

       Got it, yeah.

   21. JPJordan Peterson11:31

       Right? Um, they-

   22. LHLewis Howes11:32

       Victim mentality, yeah

   23. JPJordan Peterson11:32

       ... victim mentality. They take the sh- they take the, the, the quick way out.

   24. LHLewis Howes11:36

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JPJordan Peterson11:36

       They pursue impulsive pleasures. They sacrifice meaning for expediency. They don't take care of their basic responsibilities. They fight stupidly with their parents. They don't, they don't negotiate properly with their spouse. They're bitter at work because they haven't said what they have to say.

   26. LHLewis Howes11:50

       Mm.

   27. JPJordan Peterson11:51

       They haven't thought through what they're doing tomorrow. They drink too much. They smoke too much. They take too many drugs. They don't regulate their, their-

   28. LHLewis Howes11:57

       Don't work out, yeah. [laughs]

   29. JPJordan Peterson11:58

       Yeah, so there's like-

   30. LHLewis Howes11:59

       Got it. So those are the weaknesses
7. 14:12 – 17:48

   Discipline, exercise, and the long-term cost of avoiding pain

   1. LHLewis Howes14:12

      And that's why I think that you mentioned at one point is, like, putting ourselves in, um, structured pain, like structured sense of feeling pain throughout the day.

   2. JPJordan Peterson14:22

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LHLewis Howes14:22

      Whether it be the tough conversation.

   4. JPJordan Peterson14:24

      Mm-hmm.

   5. LHLewis Howes14:24

      I don't wanna do that. It's painful, but I'm going to because I know afterwards-

   6. JPJordan Peterson14:28

      Mm

   7. LHLewis Howes14:28

      ... it's gonna probably feel better.

   8. JPJordan Peterson14:30

      Mm.

   9. LHLewis Howes14:30

      There'll be some clarity.

   10. JPJordan Peterson14:31

       It's a bit of a sacrifice, right?

   11. LHLewis Howes14:31

       Yeah. As opposed, yeah.

   12. JPJordan Peterson14:32

       So you sacrifice stability in the present for a gain in the future. That's the big discovery of human beings-

   13. LHLewis Howes14:37

       And, and were you a big-

   14. JPJordan Peterson14:37

       ... is that sacrifice works.

   15. LHLewis Howes14:38

       Exactly. And were you a big athlete growing up?

   16. JPJordan Peterson14:40

       No.

   17. LHLewis Howes14:40

       No? But as a-

   18. JPJordan Peterson14:41

       No, well, I was a lo- a small kid, and I skipped a grade.

   19. LHLewis Howes14:44

       Right, right. Yeah.

   20. JPJordan Peterson14:44

       Although I skied, and I went cross-country skiing and that.

   21. LHLewis Howes14:46

       That's good.

   22. JPJordan Peterson14:46

       But it's individual sports things-

   23. LHLewis Howes14:48

       Yeah

   24. JPJordan Peterson14:48

       ... mostly with my dad.

   25. LHLewis Howes14:49

       You understand, then, in order to improve as an athlete or in any sport-

   26. JPJordan Peterson14:52

       Mm

   27. LHLewis Howes14:52

       ... you have to put yourself through daily pain.

   28. JPJordan Peterson14:54

       Yeah, right.

   29. LHLewis Howes14:55

       If you wanna achieve that model of excellence that you watch someone playing basketball-

   30. JPJordan Peterson14:59

       Mm
8. 17:48 – 29:15

   Turning vision into goals: steps, calibration, and a compelling rationale

   1. JPJordan Peterson17:48

      Yes, yes. And so as you plan, you get better at planning, which is the crucial thing. So, so then we say to people, "Take your positive vision and make it into eight stateable goals," right? So and then rate them in a hierarchy because you need to know what-

   2. LHLewis Howes18:02

      Like a top goal-

   3. JPJordan Peterson18:03

      Yeah, yeah

   4. LHLewis Howes18:04

      ... and then incremental goals.

   5. JPJordan Peterson18:04

      Yeah. And, and, and that, well, that's the other thing, is break the goals into incremental goals so that you have a reasonable probability of succeeding. So, 'cause what you wanna do, this is also what you wanna do with a kid. You don't tell your kid, "Here's an impossible thing. Why don't you go out and fail?" You say, "Here's something worth going after. Here's a step you could take that would push you beyond where you are, but that you also have a reasonably high probability of succeeding at."

   6. LHLewis Howes18:31

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JPJordan Peterson18:31

      Right? They call that-

   8. LHLewis Howes18:32

      Within a timeframe, yeah

   9. JPJordan Peterson18:33

      ... mm, within some timeframe. That's the other thing. You have to parameterize it with regards to timeframe. That's right. And that puts you in the zone of proximal development, and that's a, that's a concept that was generated by a guy named Vygotsky. He was a Russian developmental psychologist, and a smart one. It's where the idea of the zone comes from-

   10. LHLewis Howes18:49

       Mm

   11. JPJordan Peterson18:49

       ... to be in the zone.

   12. LHLewis Howes18:50

       Yeah.

   13. JPJordan Peterson18:50

       And when you're in the zone, you're expanding your skills at, in a manner that's intrinsically rewarding because you're succeeding. And so you wanna set, if you're good to yourself, you think, "Okay, I need to set a goal, but I need to set a goal that someone as stupid and useless as me could probably attain if they put some effort into it."

   14. LHLewis Howes19:10

       Right.

   15. JPJordan Peterson19:10

       And then you got, then you've got it perfectly, because it's not so high that it's grandiose or impossible that you fail necessarily and then justify your bitterness. It's like, well, I couldn't do-

   16. LHLewis Howes19:20

       [laughs]

   17. JPJordan Peterson19:20

       Well, that, 'cause that happens to people.

   18. LHLewis Howes19:21

       Happens all the time.

   19. JPJordan Peterson19:22

       Yeah. It's like-

   20. LHLewis Howes19:23

       See this all the time

   21. JPJordan Peterson19:23

       ... you know, it's like, it's yes, exactly. "Well, I set a goal and I didn't attain it, so I'm not gonna set any more goals."

   22. LHLewis Howes19:29

       Right.

   23. JPJordan Peterson19:29

       It's like, no, you set a goal that was inappropriate. You-

   24. LHLewis Howes19:32

       For the timeframe.

   25. JPJordan Peterson19:33

       Mm-hmm.

   26. LHLewis Howes19:33

       Yeah.

   27. JPJordan Peterson19:33

       That's right. You didn't calibrate it properly.

   28. LHLewis Howes19:35

       Yeah.

   29. JPJordan Peterson19:35

       And, and you're playing a trick on yourself because you wanted to fail so that you could justify not having to try. That's why.

   30. LHLewis Howes19:40

       And being a victim.
9. 29:15 – 55:56

   Ethics, self-doubt, and living so you can ‘speak of what you do’

   1. LHLewis Howes29:15

      When, you know, I hear a lot of people say, "Don't let the opinions of other people hold you back from taking action on your goals." Because I think a lot of people will listen to other people's opinions, and they feel scared to do something based on someone saying, "I told you so," or, "You couldn't do this," or, "You're not good enough." How do we overcome that, those opinions? That keep us playing small, that hold us from putting our creation into the world or going after what we want

   2. JPJordan Peterson29:44

      Well, generally someone else's comment is unlikely to bring you to a halt unless you value that comment. It... So imagine you're going to pursue a goal, but you're full of doubts.

   3. LHLewis Howes30:00

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JPJordan Peterson30:01

      And so 40% of you is doubts and 60% of you is pursuing the goal. And then five or six people object, and they object using the doubts.

   5. LHLewis Howes30:11

      Mm.

   6. JPJordan Peterson30:12

      Well, you're, you're, it's, that's gonna be really hard on you.

   7. LHLewis Howes30:17

      So how do we overcome self-doubt?

   8. JPJordan Peterson30:19

      But partly, well, partly what that means is you, you probably haven't thought it through completely. Like, what are you doing and why?

   9. LHLewis Howes30:28

      Mm.

   10. JPJordan Peterson30:29

       And if you have a bunch of doubts and they haven't been addressed, then you're vulnerable at that point. And it may be that your goal is not everything it could be, and it may be that your strategy isn't fully fleshed out.

   11. LHLewis Howes30:46

       Mm.

   12. JPJordan Peterson30:46

       And so you have to have a conversation with your doubts and take them seriously and see if you can construct a goal that's, that you're on board with.

   13. LHLewis Howes31:00

       Right.

   14. JPJordan Peterson31:00

       And then, then a doubt pops up because someone criticizes you. It triggers a doubt, and you look at the doubt and you think, "Okay, here's the doubt, and this is why what I'm doing, you know, maybe won't work." But then you think, "But I, but this, I've thought this through and I've thought this through and I've thought this through, and that all works. And so no, that, uh, that isn't going to stop me." You know? So I look and I think, "Well, I'm, I'm, I'm writing something. Why? Well, I wanna figure out this problem. I wanna think about this problem. Why? Well, it's an engaging problem, but it's a problem that many people seem to have. So that discussing it and figuring it out seems to be useful. Why? Well, because the more of us who take problems seriously and try to address them and communicate about them, the fewer problems we might have and the less suffering there'll be. And suffering doesn't seem to be a good thing, unnecessary suffering. Maybe we could work towards it, and maybe that's what I should be doing. And that seems to be what's ethical and, and that's it." Like-

   15. LHLewis Howes32:08

       Right

   16. JPJordan Peterson32:08

       ... and you might say, you might say, "Well, what if you doubt that doing what's ethical is right?" Um, well, it's not that easy to construct an argument that supports the idea that having more unnecessary suffering in the world is good.

   17. LHLewis Howes32:31

       Mm-hmm. Right. [laughs] Right.

   18. JPJordan Peterson32:34

       So I would say, you know, you wanna put yourself on firm moral foundations, and people talk about morality all the time. "This is what you should do, or you're a bad person." It's arbitrary.

   19. LHLewis Howes32:44

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JPJordan Peterson32:45

       You know? It's, it's got this ring of patriarchal tyranny, but that, that's based on a misapprehension of what morality is. It's like, do you wanna be tortured by your conscience? Like, how... I mean, how pleasant do you find it to be tortured by your conscience?

   21. LHLewis Howes33:04

       It's horrible.

   22. JPJordan Peterson33:05

       How horrible? Like, is there anything worse?

   23. LHLewis Howes33:07

       It's excruciating, yeah. I don't, I don't know if there's anything worse. I mean-

   24. JPJordan Peterson33:12

       It's up there

   25. LHLewis Howes33:13

       ... you gotta live with it, yeah, for as long as you have it.

   26. JPJordan Peterson33:17

       Yeah. Well, I think that's a universal experience or near universal experience. So you, you live ethically when you're not violating your conscience.

   27. LHLewis Howes33:25

       Right.

   28. JPJordan Peterson33:26

       Well, there isn't anything better than that. That might not be good enough. It might not even be good. Like, let's say you manage it.

   29. LHLewis Howes33:33

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JPJordan Peterson33:34

       Things can still come along and, and take you out sideways, but, but the purpose of living ethically is so that, so that you have some peace.
10. 55:56 – 1:19:44

    Catastrophe close to home: his daughter’s illness, narrowing timeframes, and resilience

    1. JPJordan Peterson55:56

       But, but I think the, the hardest existential situation that I've been in is the situation with my daughter because she was very, very ill.

    2. LHLewis Howes56:04

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JPJordan Peterson56:05

       And she had rheumatoid arthritis. She had arthritis. It wasn't rheumatoid type, and she had 40 affected joints. Now, that started to bother her when she was two.

    4. LHLewis Howes56:14

       Hmm.

    5. JPJordan Peterson56:15

       But really manifested itself fully when she was six. And some of the medical treatment helped, but when she was 15, 14, 14 through 16, um, first her hip disintegrated.

    6. LHLewis Howes56:28

       Ugh.

    7. JPJordan Peterson56:28

       And then her... And so she had that replaced after walking around on it for, like, a g-

    8. LHLewis Howes56:33

       Oh, man

    9. JPJordan Peterson56:33

       ... good year, and then her ankle disintegrated on her other foot, and she had to have it replaced. And so there were two years of absolutely brutal pain for her, like brutal, daily, excruciating pain. And, and we were really running around trying to figure out what to do about it because the hip wasn't too hard to replace, you know, 'cause surgeons are actually pretty good at hip replacements.

    10. LHLewis Howes56:55

        Yeah. The ankle-

    11. JPJordan Peterson56:55

        But ankles are still-

    12. LHLewis Howes56:57

        So many bones and like-

    13. JPJordan Peterson56:58

        ... touch and go.

    14. LHLewis Howes56:58

        Yeah.

    15. JPJordan Peterson56:59

        Yeah, and so, and just watching that and, and, and... Well, watching what it was doing to her because she was in enough pain. At, at one point it just about broke her, you know? And I mean, you know, you and I, you've probably-

    16. LHLewis Howes57:11

        That's an emotional, yeah

    17. JPJordan Peterson57:11

        ... been in a situation where you were in pain for a night and couldn't sleep. It's like yeah, fine.

    18. LHLewis Howes57:15

        Mm-hmm.

    19. JPJordan Peterson57:15

        So multiply that by five and extend it over two years.

    20. LHLewis Howes57:19

        That's tough.

    21. JPJordan Peterson57:19

        You think, "Jesus Christ," yeah. And she was on, like, huge doses of opiates, and so that was sedating her.

    22. LHLewis Howes57:24

        Oh, man.

    23. JPJordan Peterson57:24

        And so that made her look drunk in public. And she could only stay awake for about six hours a day, and she had to take Ritalin to stay awake because otherwise she was just sleeping all the time. And, and it was a very bad autoimmune condition, and so it wasn't only manifest in, in the j- joint deterioration and the pain, because arthritis is also very painful, and 40 joints happens to be quite a lot.

    24. LHLewis Howes57:43

        Oh, gosh.

    25. JPJordan Peterson57:44

        So-

    26. LHLewis Howes57:44

        Just one joint-

    27. JPJordan Peterson57:45

        It was bru-

    28. LHLewis Howes57:45

        ... would be-

    29. JPJordan Peterson57:45

        Yeah, right. No, it was absolutely brutal beyond belief. And so-

    30. LHLewis Howes57:50

        As a father or parent, how do you navigate that emotionally yourself?
11. 1:19:44 – 1:43:14

    Public visibility, reputation risk, and the demand to be careful with words

    1. LHLewis Howes1:19:44

       What have you found to be the best practices of managing, uh, mass attention, whether you wanna call it fame, mass attention, mass audience, uh, people being fanatical about your message, your work, you as an individual, uh, you know-

    2. JPJordan Peterson1:20:01

       Luckily, that, that hasn't happened too much, the fanatical side of things. You know, I've had the odd ru- the odd brush with people who were a little more persistent than was probably good. And, you know, I could see lurking signs of mental health issues behind that and-

    3. LHLewis Howes1:20:20

       Mm-hmm

    4. JPJordan Peterson1:20:20

       ... but fortunately, very little of that has happened. And, um, that's certainly all for the good. Um-

    5. LHLewis Howes1:20:27

       It's 'cause you're not, you're not living in LA. That's probably why. [laughs]

    6. JPJordan Peterson1:20:30

       Well, could be. Could be. But it, well, for whatever reason, I've been pretty fortunate about that.

    7. LHLewis Howes1:20:35

       Yeah.

    8. JPJordan Peterson1:20:36

       Um, I talk over what I'm doing with the people around me all the time, and try to keep it on the proper pathway to the degree that I'm able to do that, and, and to see if what I'm doing is justifiable and ethical. And we're all terrified of this, you know, to a degree that is very difficult to communicate. You know, we, we live in a time where if you make a mistake, you can be shredded. And the, I would say to some degree, the more visible you are, the more thorough the shredding.

    9. LHLewis Howes1:21:10

       Oh, right. Yeah.

    10. JPJordan Peterson1:21:11

        And so the cost of an error, an ethical error, is unbelievably high. The cost of the appearance of an ethical error is e- extremely high, much less the cost of an actual ethical error. And so we're very careful-

    11. LHLewis Howes1:21:28

        Mm

    12. JPJordan Peterson1:21:28

        ... to tr- to act ethically in every manner possible, appearance and reality.

    13. LHLewis Howes1:21:37

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JPJordan Peterson1:21:38

        You know, I mean-

    15. LHLewis Howes1:21:38

        'Cause everything's being watched, yeah

    16. JPJordan Peterson1:21:39

        ... well, and I, I, I mean, I can, I... I have no idea how any of this looks from the outside, but my reputation has been on the line publicly many, many times.

    17. LHLewis Howes1:21:57

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JPJordan Peterson1:21:58

        And partly sometimes outright accusations, sometimes as a consequence of things I hypothetically said, um, sometimes as a consequence of newspaper articles that, you know, have taken a particular twist, and God only knows how many times a consequence of my own inadequacies and errors. But every time that rises up as an issue, there's a two-week period where no one in my family knows if this is the time that it's just going to go to hell.

    19. LHLewis Howes1:22:33

        Really? Where it's all crumbles.

    20. JPJordan Peterson1:22:34

        Oh, absolutely. Sure.

    21. LHLewis Howes1:22:36

        How, how-

    22. JPJordan Peterson1:22:36

        Well, look at how many people it happens to. It ha-

    23. LHLewis Howes1:22:38

        I know

    24. JPJordan Peterson1:22:38

        ... and look how people respond, Ben. You know, it doesn't take a very big Twitter mob to chase anyone back into their hole.

    25. LHLewis Howes1:22:47

        How do we, how do-

    26. JPJordan Peterson1:22:48

        Chase a company, for that matter-

    27. LHLewis Howes1:22:50

        I know

    28. JPJordan Peterson1:22:50

        ... back into its, on its heels. I mean, uh, isn't that, doesn't, uh, does that, is that how it looks to you? I mean, what do, what do you think about this?

    29. LHLewis Howes1:22:58

        Absolutely. Yeah. I'm just curious, you know, as people, individuals, whether it be me, you, or anyone, wants to build something, wants to have a goal and aim, as you talk about, and go after this thing that they care about, and share their opinion, share their voice, have good intentions, maybe someone doesn't like those intentions but have good intentions, is how do we as human beings think about reputation? And does reputation even matter anymore if anyone can try to tear your reputation down? Should we be focused on having a good reputation-

    30. JPJordan Peterson1:23:34

        Yes
12. 1:43:14 – 2:20:34

    Money, marketplace discipline, and the danger of casual contempt

    1. JPJordan Peterson1:43:14

       I'd never made any bones about being an evil capitalist. But well, I'll give you an example. So I, I built this, I told you about this software that, that online program that helps-

    2. LHLewis Howes1:43:25

       Mm

    3. JPJordan Peterson1:43:25

       ... people write out their past and their present and the goals, goals for their future. And we tested the, the future part of that to see if it worked, and it worked quite well. Um, it was effective. Um, and I sell it. Why don't I give it away? Well, because that's not the right price.

    4. LHLewis Howes1:43:45

       Mm.

    5. JPJordan Peterson1:43:45

       Like pricing decisions, money is very, very complicated, and pricing is very complicated. Pricing is value.

    6. LHLewis Howes1:43:51

       Mm.

    7. JPJordan Peterson1:43:52

       It's like, well, is the right price for something zero? Well, probably not, first of all, because it doesn't take zero to make it-

    8. LHLewis Howes1:44:00

       Right

    9. JPJordan Peterson1:44:00

       ... or sustain it. Like there's an infrastructure, customer service infrastructure. There are people working on it constantly who could be making new things. If you can't sell it, what makes you think it's worth anything? If you can't sell it, what makes you think you've got your communication right? Like you can use price as an indication of whether what you're doing works. If no one'll pay for it, maybe it's no good, or maybe you're not talking about it properly. So I wanted to make things that would work, that would work in the marketplace.

    10. LHLewis Howes1:44:34

        Mm.

    11. JPJordan Peterson1:44:35

        It was a challenge. There's the challenge aspect of it, too. So I never had contempt for money. Um, and money for me was always, while it was a challenge, that's one thing, and for many people who are motivated by money, money actually serves as a challenge. It's like-

    12. LHLewis Howes1:44:52

        Mm

    13. JPJordan Peterson1:44:52

        ... can I, can I make more of this? It's, it's a competition in some sense-

    14. LHLewis Howes1:44:57

        Right

    15. JPJordan Peterson1:44:57

        ... like a game. Um, 'cause you might think, "Well, they want all the things." It's like, yeah, sort of no. You kinda, if you're sensible, you sort of max out on things pretty rapidly.

    16. LHLewis Howes1:45:12

        Right. [laughs] Right. You can only buy so much and use it so much.

    17. JPJordan Peterson1:45:14

        Well, and it, it, yes. And I'm not hedonistic in a manner that money would aid in, in some sense.

    18. LHLewis Howes1:45:25

        Of course.

    19. JPJordan Peterson1:45:26

        Um, partly 'cause I'm not 16.

    20. LHLewis Howes1:45:29

        Mm.

    21. JPJordan Peterson1:45:29

        You know, I'm 60. So what am I gonna do with it? Um, and I've also learned be careful what you buy because it's not clear who owns who when you buy something. Like I knew this very rich couple, and they had like six houses.

    22. LHLewis Howes1:45:43

        Mm.

    23. JPJordan Peterson1:45:44

        Well, the poor woman, the, the female member of the couple, all she did was worry about the houses. [laughs] Like one house is bad enough 'cause it's always falling apart.

    24. LHLewis Howes1:45:53

        [laughs]

    25. JPJordan Peterson1:45:53

        Six big houses fall apart all the time.

    26. LHLewis Howes1:45:56

        Oh, man.

    27. JPJordan Peterson1:45:57

        So, you know, and you think, "Well, poor her. She had six houses." It's like, yeah, yeah, I know, the problems of the rich, right? Don't we wish ev- don't we all wish we had those? Yeah, fair enough, but, but there's still a point to be made there.

    28. LHLewis Howes1:46:11

        Yeah.

    29. JPJordan Peterson1:46:11

        Um, I put together a financial team. I also had to abandon my supervision of my m- my financial affairs because I couldn't manage them.

    30. LHLewis Howes1:46:21

        Mm.
13. 2:20:34 – 2:48:46

    Marriage practices: truth, conflict resolution, negotiation, and maintaining romance

    1. LHLewis Howes2:20:34

       That's great. What would you say would be the, the keys to your success of 50 years of loving each other and being in a, what seems to be a healthy, functional relationship when in society today, there doesn't seem like many of those?

    2. JPJordan Peterson2:20:49

       Well, we, we really do our best not to lie to each other about anything. And we also have fights when they're necessary. We don't let things, we don't hide things in the fog. That's the title of chapter three of my new book, Don't Hide Things in the Fog. And we work through our issues. Our, if we're, if we have a dispute, we do our level best to get to the bottom of it, to find out what in the world's causing it, whose needs to change and why and how and when, and then how we can progress forward into the future without having that issue dog us or drag behind us or interfere with us at all. And that means a fair bit of confrontation, I would say, but in less so over the years as we've settled more and more things. But everything's out in the open. Everything that we can get is out of, out in the open. You, you can't have a relationship without trust.

    3. LHLewis Howes2:21:57

       Mm.

    4. JPJordan Peterson2:21:58

       And y- you trust your partner courageously if you're not naive, knowing that you can be hurt and that you can be deceived, and that you can also do both of those things. So you offer your partner your trust as an invitation to them to be honest and forthcoming and, and well, and then issues come up and you delve into them and straighten them out. And we also attend to the relationship, um, in... I'm not going to refer back to this new book continually, but it's relevant-

    5. LHLewis Howes2:22:31

       [laughs]

    6. JPJordan Peterson2:22:31

       ... in this context. Um, it's chapter 10, Plan and Work Diligently to Maintain the Romance in Your Relationship, and we do that as well. And it is effortful.

    7. LHLewis Howes2:22:44

       Mm.

    8. JPJordan Peterson2:22:44

       I mean, we t- we try to have, throughout our relationship, we've tried to have romantic dates one to three times a week, and they require preparation and cooperation and the will to do it, and the will to put yourself on the line, and the, the desire to make that a priority even when other things are more pressing. Um, w- we both want it to work. That's another thing. We're committed to it-

    9. LHLewis Howes2:23:14

       Mm-hmm

    10. JPJordan Peterson2:23:14

        ... um, and not interested in finding another relationship. S- and so far we've been fortunate and that's worked. Um, we have fun together. We love our kids. We have had joint projects of all sorts together, renovating houses, traveling, raising our children, now our grandchildren. Um, but of all of that is, the, the most important thing as far as I'm concerned, is to not to lie to your partner.

    11. LHLewis Howes2:23:43

        You mentioned you don't have a relationship if you don't have trust or if there's not trust in the relationship. How does someone, um, if someone is not trusting the other partner, how do you cultivate trust? If you're 100% honest with that person, if you are transparent about every action you make in your life, if you're, you know, they have access to whatever they wanna see and you're, you're constantly creating trust, but for whatever reason, they still might be jealous or insecure or not believing you. How does someone get someone to trust them? Or is it not about them at that stage and it's about the other person and their insecurities?

    12. JPJordan Peterson2:24:27

        Well, it, it depends very much on the particulars of the situation. Um, you know, so I don't know if there's a generic answer to that. I think that you can establish the ground rules explicitly, you know, and have a discussion about it. Are we gonna lie to each other or not? Are we gonna tell each other the truth to the degree that we can to make that an actual goal, and to talk through the consequences of doing that and not doing it? And then I would also say whenever a hiccup occurs in the relationship, maybe you don't call it out at each hiccup, you know, because you have to have a certain amount of silent tolerance in any relationship to let small infractions go. But if they repeat, my rule is three times.

    13. LHLewis Howes2:25:18

        Mm.

    14. JPJordan Peterson2:25:18

        And it's the rule that we, I share with my wife. I- if something happens three times that is causing emotional u- upset, anger, jealousy, disappointment, resentment, frustration, any of those things, anything that you don't want to experience- And that you especially don't want to experience repeatedly, then you can call it out. And y- and if you, if you have three examples, your case is much better made than if you just have one. And I would also say that when you call it out, you know, you could say, "Look, uh, we were at a party the other night, and you were... It looked to me, I felt as if you were paying too much intense intent- attention to, um, Dave."

    15. LHLewis Howes2:26:03

        Mm-hmm. [laughs]

    16. JPJordan Peterson2:26:03

        "There was flirting going on there. That's what it looked like to me. There was some flirting going on there. And you know, I, that made me uncomfortable." Well, y- you don't say, "Well, you were flirting. Stop doing it." You say, "Well, this is how it looked, this is what it looked like to me, and here was my response." And then you wanna think, "And maybe I'm a damn fool, and blind, and jealous, and stupid, and I'm misinterpreting. Or maybe it was a harmless flirtation of the sort that people engage in because it adds a little bit of spice to a social interaction." You wanna find out. Like, it- it's really convenient if it's the other person's fault, except then you're laden with living with that person-

    17. LHLewis Howes2:26:45

        [laughs]

    18. JPJordan Peterson2:26:45

        ... so it really doesn't help you anyways. But it's convenient, because then they have to change. But-

    19. LHLewis Howes2:26:49

        Mm-hmm

    20. JPJordan Peterson2:26:50

        ... you've got to think about this over the long run. You're gonna be interacting with this person on a minute-by-minute basis for decades. Um, if you're the idiot, and that's causing trouble, then you should find out. So you wanna say, "Well look, this is what I saw. What's your explanation of what's going on?"

    21. LHLewis Howes2:27:12

        Mm.

    22. JPJordan Peterson2:27:12

        And then they'll offer you their viewpoint, and hopefully they'll do the same thing. They'll think, "Well, this is my intent," and maybe they have to go think about it, but, "This is my intent and this is what I saw, and I think you're being oversensitive, um, in that situation." And you peel back the explanations layer by layer until you both agree on what happened and, more importantly, on what you're going to do about it in the future. And that's really hard and especially if there is something going on that's not straight.

    23. LHLewis Howes2:27:46

        Mm-hmm.

    24. JPJordan Peterson2:27:46

        Because that will require quite a bit of digging. It'll probably result in anger and tears, and a fight. And that's very unpleasant. It's e- it's easier in the short term to avoid that. But hopefully the consequence of that is you don't have to have that fight again.

    25. LHLewis Howes2:28:02

        Right.

    26. JPJordan Peterson2:28:05

        You have to come to a negotiated agreement about, about that situation. And you have to pay attention to your own uncomfortable negative emotions in order to manage that, and not, and not pretend that everything's all right, or that you're nicer than you are, or that you're less jealous than you are, or, or, or less blind, or... See, one of the things I learned from Carl Jung, the psychoanalyst, about marriage, was that there is a reason marriage was a vow. Like, the vow is that you stick together. Okay, so now imagine that's a vow, okay? You do not get to leave, period.

    27. LHLewis Howes2:28:46

        [laughs] Right.

    28. JPJordan Peterson2:28:48

        Okay, so what does that mean? Well, on the upside it means that you don't have to be alone. It means that your family will have continuity over decades. It means that the narrative of your life won't be fragmented and broken by divorce or sequential divorce. It means that your children can grow up and maybe have their children within a continuing family. Um, it means that your children will be able to maintain relationships with the grandparents on both sides, and the cousins. Like, it's a big deal to maintain that. There's huge advantages in it. It means that you'll have someone there when you're not well, and so will your partner. Um, and it'll means that you have someone to share all of the positive things of life with. So there's huge advantages to it. Okay, so why does it have to be a vow? Well, I don't think you can tell the truth to someone who can run away.

    29. LHLewis Howes2:29:47

        Mm.

    30. JPJordan Peterson2:29:47

        Because if you tell the truth to someone and they can run away, then they'll run away.

Episode duration: 3:05:56