How to Fix a Broken Heart with Guy Winch and Lewis Howes

Dr. Guy Winch 0:00 When that loss happens, we tend to idealize the person we lost. So we don't look back and-

Lewis Howes 0:06 It's like the greatest ever

Dr. Guy Winch 0:07 ... ever.

Lewis Howes 0:07 Everything was perfect.

Dr. Guy Winch 0:09 Everything. And it's certainly not gonna help you recover.

Lewis Howes 0:11 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 0:12 So it's important to balance. It's important to say, "Yes, this was great about them, and this was great about the relationship, but let's also focus on what was not." [upbeat music]

Lewis Howes 0:37 Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness podcast. We have the legendary Guy Winch in the house. Good to see you, my friend.

Dr. Guy Winch 0:43 Great to be here.

Lewis Howes 0:44 You were on episode number 42 back in December 2013. And it was such a profound and powerful episode we did on emotional first aid. So many people loved that when it was just a baby podcast, but everyone was talking about it because I think most of us don't know how to move through our emotions when we feel pain or any type of thing we're going through. And so that was very powerful then for me to go through that at that time, and a lot of our audience. But now you've got a new book out called How to Fix a Broken Heart, that you guys can get it. It's out right now. Check it out, Amazon and everywhere else, in the stores. How to Fix a Broken Heart. And this is really something that's not talked about. We were talking about this before we started. People don't really talk about how to fix your heart when it's broken, and how to connect with someone who's got a broken heart without making them feel wrong, without making them feel embarrassed or like it's a silly thing, right? Because we have some friends sometimes who go through a heartbreak in a relationship, or they lose a pet, and sometimes we don't know how to communicate with them. So what would you say first is how do we communicate with our friends or loved ones who are going through a broken heart? What's the first kind of approach to create a space for them, would you say?

Dr. Guy Winch 2:00 So I think the biggest problem in doing that is that our perception of heartbreak in general is that it's something that the young go through, the teenagers.

Lewis Howes 2:08 Ah.

Dr. Guy Winch 2:09 You know, when, when your 14-year-old comes home and they're, they're heartbroken, you go, "Ah, you know, they're 14, so that's why this is so painful for them because they're only 14, so they don't know how to deal with it." But heartbreak is as painful at 44 and 64 and 84 as it is at 14, except we forget that because we're not heartbroken. We remember it pretty quick when we are. But before-

Lewis Howes 2:32 Why, why are we heartbroken?

Dr. Guy Winch 2:34 So the kind of heartbreaks that I speak about in the book, there are two specific kinds, romantic heartbreak, and I'm not talking about divorce, because divorce is something established. "Oh, you're going through a divorce. You poor thing." People acknowledge and recognize that's a-

Lewis Howes 2:47 Mm-hmm

Dr. Guy Winch 2:47 ... difficult life shift. Um, but heartbreak short of divorce, your, uh, significant other you're not married to, it's a boyfriend, it's a girlfriend, what have you, um, that is considered, "Ah, that's not really that important. It should be something you can get over." So I speak about romantic heartbreak.

Lewis Howes 3:04 Someone breaking up with you-

Dr. Guy Winch 3:05 Yes

Lewis Howes 3:05 ... or someone passing that you're in love with.

Dr. Guy Winch 3:07 Um-

Lewis Howes 3:07 Is that a heartbreak or no?

Dr. Guy Winch 3:09 Uh, yes, if, if, um-

Lewis Howes 3:10 Different

Dr. Guy Winch 3:11 ... they're not... if it's not a spouse. In other words, the idea-

Lewis Howes 3:13 Yes

Dr. Guy Winch 3:13 ... is that marriage, um, conveys this legitimacy of a relationship in many ways, but emotionally as well. And so we feel-

Lewis Howes 3:21 Mm

Dr. Guy Winch 3:21 ... it's valid emotionally to be very upset if your spouse-

Lewis Howes 3:25 Yes

Dr. Guy Winch 3:25 ... uh, left you or passed away. But if they're not your spouse or your, let's say, fiancé, if they're just... you might have been living with them for 15 years and be spouse in every way except the marriage license, that's considered different.

Lewis Howes 3:39 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 3:39 So that's one of the heartbreaks I talk about. The other is about losing a pet, and I'm not talking about goldfish.

Lewis Howes 3:46 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 3:46 Or maybe some people are very attached to their goldfish.

Lewis Howes 3:48 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 3:48 I, I don't want to criticize the goldfish-

Lewis Howes 3:49 Or a lizard or... Yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 3:50 ... pet. Yes, I'm sure there's some adorable lizards. But-

Lewis Howes 3:52 [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 3:53 ... mostly mammals, and I'm joking.

Lewis Howes 3:56 Yes.

Dr. Guy Winch 3:56 But, but cats, dogs, maybe other kinds of animals we can be-

Lewis Howes 3:59 Yes

Dr. Guy Winch 3:59 ... horses, you know, uh-

Lewis Howes 4:00 Pigs, cows

Dr. Guy Winch 4:00 ... perhaps.

Lewis Howes 4:01 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 4:01 We can be very, very attached to, and can... they can serve a huge function, uh, in our lives. And when we lose them, we can feel extremely bereft. We can go through a significant grieving process. But if you're a 40-year-old executive who just lost his cherished cat who had been with him for 22 years, ever since, you know, his mother died when he was 18, and he is bereft because the cat died, he is not gonna go into work and say to his boss, "I need a week off. My cat died."

Lewis Howes 4:30 "My cat died." Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 4:30 Because that wouldn't be good for his career.

Lewis Howes 4:32 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 4:32 And yet-

Lewis Howes 4:33 Or his image and... [laughs] Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Guy Winch 4:35 Exactly that. But the grief he's going through, um, can be as significant as losing a first degree relative, yet it's not sanctioned. It's not something we acknowledge, we think is serious enough. So I wrote this book because I want to talk about these are very important emotional, psychological, and life events.

Lewis Howes 4:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 4:56 There are things we need to know about how to handle them ourselves and how to handle people in our sphere who are going through them. And if we don't know them, we don't talk about it. So that, that was the main reason I-

Lewis Howes 5:07 Yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 5:07 ... covered those two topics.

Lewis Howes 5:09 What happens to us emotionally if we don't process these heartbreaks in an effective way? If we're... our cat dies, but it's our, you know, uh, our companion for 20 years, if a cat lives that long.

Dr. Guy Winch 5:24 They do.

Lewis Howes 5:25 Yeah. And it... and it's there th- with us for all the heartache that we've gone through, and it passes, and we don't process it, we don't share these things with our friends, or we don't talk about it, or we don't take a few days off or however many days off we need, what happens long term? to us if we don't process it?

Dr. Guy Winch 5:42 So it, that depends on who you are, your psychological makeup, your support systems, a lot of things about your own psychology. But to some of us, um, there is a, a concept called complicated grief, and this is true of pet loss, of romantic heartbreak, and of any kind of grieving, even grieving relatives and friends, et cetera.

Lewis Howes 6:02 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 6:02 If we don't go through the grieving process in a adaptive way, in a way that literally takes us through it, and think of recovery as any kind of recovery. You, you know, if you have broken bones, you have a heart attack and you're recovering from it, you need to recover, build your strength, set the bones, et cetera, et cetera. If you don't go through the recovery correctly, you can end up with a phenomenon called complicated grief. And in complicated grief, it means you don't quite recover, that the wounds don't quite heal, and then there are all kinds of vulnerabilities, um, that are there-

Lewis Howes 6:37 Mm

Dr. Guy Winch 6:37 ... in terms of your mood, in terms of, um, you know, your, how you respond to certain things.

Lewis Howes 6:41 Your energy, your attitude.

Dr. Guy Winch 6:42 Yes. In other words, if you lose, you know, a, a, a romantic partner or a cherished animal, and five years from then, if somebody talks about it, it should, it, it can give you an ache. It will, you know, elicit that kind of sadness for a moment, but it shouldn't take you right back, and in complicated grief, it can take you right back.

Lewis Howes 7:04 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 7:04 You can literally start bawling your eyes out 10 years later-

Lewis Howes 7:07 Wow

Dr. Guy Winch 7:07 ... because you never quite processed it in a way that got you through it. You're still somewhere stuck in there.

Lewis Howes 7:15 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 7:15 And so it's very important to actually process grief in a, in the correct way, all kinds of grief.

Lewis Howes 7:21 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 7:21 It's especially difficult to do when you feel embarrassed, weird about the fact that you're grieving in the first place.

Lewis Howes 7:29 Right. So we shouldn't feel embarrassed for grieving is what you're saying.

Dr. Guy Winch 7:33 We shouldn't feel embarrassed for having any feeling we have, truly, because those are not-

Lewis Howes 7:37 Yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 7:38 ... we don't, we never summon the feeling, right? I mean, we, the feeling happens. It's a, we're not in control of it. We are in control of how we respond to the feeling and what we do with it, whether we indulge it, whether we wallow in it, whether we try and manage it in some kind of way.

Lewis Howes 7:55 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 7:56 How we respond to the feeling we're responsible for, but not for having it. We, it's not in our control.

Lewis Howes 8:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 8:01 So we shouldn't feel embarrassed for any feeling we're having. Any strong feeling we're having, we're having. The question is, what do you do with it when you are having it?

Lewis Howes 8:08 Yeah. Do you ever feel like you have any embarrassing feelings or stupid feelings yourself?

Dr. Guy Winch 8:12 I have many stupid feelings.

Lewis Howes 8:14 Really? [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 8:14 Because we all do.

Lewis Howes 8:15 I-

Dr. Guy Winch 8:15 I have many stu- Look, I'll just give you a very trite example. Um, the Super Bowl's coming up. There'll be, uh, you know, it's coming up now. It'll already have happened, but there are gonna be these Super Bowl commercials. There's going to be one, because there always is every year, in which I start to do this.

Lewis Howes 8:31 [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 8:32 And I start to feel emotional because it's a really good commercial-

Lewis Howes 8:35 Yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 8:35 ... and it made me emotional, and I usually feel like really, it's Kleenex. I don't know why I'm feeling so-

Lewis Howes 8:41 Right

Dr. Guy Winch 8:41 ... moved. I know this is a-

Lewis Howes 8:42 It's Dove soap or something. Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 8:43 But it's well done. It triggered something in me. I had the emotion. I know it's silly, quote, unquote.

Lewis Howes 8:48 Uh-huh.

Dr. Guy Winch 8:48 Um, so we all have these responses. You know, we all have our soft spots where we see something and it just really touches us or infuriates us. You know, we have our stuff.

Lewis Howes 8:56 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 8:56 And so the, the buttons that get triggered, we all have them, and those are emotions that if we know our buttons, we can go, "Yeah, that's just how I respond to this thing, and it's silly, but I can also get over it." I'm, I get over the, uh-

Lewis Howes 9:09 Yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 9:09 ... Kleenex commercial rather quickly.

Lewis Howes 9:11 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 9:11 Um, so yeah, we all have silly feelings. Um, but I'm, but the, but that's an example of a silly feeling.

Lewis Howes 9:17 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 9:17 When we're actually responding emotionally to stuff that happens in our life, it's not silly. It's just how we respond. It's important information.

Lewis Howes 9:24 Yeah. But you said how we respond is what matters, not having the feeling is like-

Dr. Guy Winch 9:28 Right

Lewis Howes 9:28 ... having the feeling's okay.

Dr. Guy Winch 9:29 What we do with the feeling.

Lewis Howes 9:30 What we do with the feeling. So what are examples of some things that people do with feelings that are okay, or maybe that they shouldn't be doing?

Dr. Guy Winch 9:38 So look, it's interesting because I think there's a significant, uh, portion of the population that doesn't believe in doing something with a feeling. In other words, my feelings are my feelings. I don't have to do anything with them. Um, and those are people that, you know, just behave very, very angry when they're angry-

Lewis Howes 9:55 Ah

Dr. Guy Winch 9:55 ... because, well, I'm angry, so I'll behave angry.

Lewis Howes 9:56 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 9:57 You might be angry, but the question is, are you imposing that on someone else? How is that affecting the people-

Lewis Howes 10:02 Mm-hmm

Dr. Guy Winch 10:03 ... around you? How is it affecting your ability to be productive and to be, uh, you know, happy in your own life? So we, we need to, um, think about our feelings and how we respond to them, um, as something over which we have a certain level of control.

Lewis Howes 10:18 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 10:19 Except this is psychology. This is not hard science, you know, in the sense of put A in, multiply by B, C comes out. It's not exactly that way because we all have a different black box there. So put A in, do B, some will get C, some will get D, some will get E. You need to know your stuff. You need to know what your emotional responses-

Lewis Howes 10:39 Mm

Dr. Guy Winch 10:39 ... tend to be and how you manage emotions best. For example, some people are great with denial, and I don't mean that in a sarcastic way. I mean that when something comes up that's distressing, they can actually compartmentalize, put it aside, and get on with things.

Lewis Howes 10:54 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 10:55 Some people can only do okay if they then call 12 to 15 people to talk about the feeling, and on- only once they've spoken about it to that many people-

Lewis Howes 11:03 Then they're okay

Dr. Guy Winch 11:04 ... and delved into it, and dived into it, and mashed it to pieces, then they can put it aside. There's no right or wrong. It, what works for you. My point is everyone should actually be thinking about that and be asking themselves, what does work for me? What does help me move on more quickly? What does help me, um, get back to my baseline and get back to functioning? What does help me, um, you know, process the important things but not have it interfere with my life?

Lewis Howes 11:36 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 11:36 That is a trial and error, um, uh, process we're all in-

Lewis Howes 11:40 Yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 11:40 ... in life.

Lewis Howes 11:41 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 11:41 Except we need to be aware that that's a question we have to ask ourselves.

Lewis Howes 11:44 Yeah. Do you think there's a timeframe where- Someone should be able to get back to normal life after a heartbreak. Like, it shouldn't take you more than six months where you have to talk about the person or the, the pet you lost or the relationship you lost or the person who broke up with you or whatever. Okay, Sally, it's been six months. We've been hearing your story every single day. Like, get off the couch, it's time to do something. Do you think there's a, a good timeline or are we all different?

Dr. Guy Winch 12:12 We're all different, but I do think... I mean, you threw out six months. It's actually a good marker, um, because if after six months you are in a very similar emotional place than you were, let's say, a, a month out, uh, two months out, you're not moving.

Lewis Howes 12:28 You're not progressing.

Dr. Guy Winch 12:28 You're not.

Lewis Howes 12:29 [clears throat]

Dr. Guy Winch 12:29 And so you are stuck, and people do get stuck. They are, and the friends do know it. Wow, I've heard this story six months now.

Lewis Howes 12:36 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 12:36 And it's the same story, and it's the same, you know... And that's somebody who's stuck, who's not actually moving, moving past it. It depends on the relationship.

Lewis Howes 12:45 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 12:45 It depends on the quality of the, of the loss. It depends on the circumstances of your life. Like, somebody can, um... What's disproportionate is it might take somebody six months to get over a two-year relationship, it might take somebody six months to get over a 10-year relationship, and it might take somebody six months to get over a two-week relationship.

Lewis Howes 13:04 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 13:04 Because for them, they were, you know-

Lewis Howes 13:07 They imagined something in the future that, yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 13:07 ... single for so long. It was just not happening for so long, and then it really seemed like it did, and they, every-

Lewis Howes 13:12 It was gone

Dr. Guy Winch 13:12 ... and they were so hopeful, and their expectations were such, and suddenly... And they live in some kind of island where they don't meet people that often, what have you.

Lewis Howes 13:19 [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 13:19 I'm saying an island can be-

Lewis Howes 13:20 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 13:20 ... you know, a city.

Lewis Howes 13:21 [clears throat]

Dr. Guy Winch 13:22 But the idea is it depends. So it, it can really... It depends on the meaning for you.

Lewis Howes 13:26 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 13:26 And it depends, again, on how you process it. If, for example, you're s- you're saying to yourself, "I'll never meet somebody again. I'll just... This is it. I'll..." That's not gonna help you move forward because that makes it so big, and, A, you don't know that, so it's a very demoralizing thought. So you have to... Even if you think it, is it valuable to dwell on that thought? Is it valuable to really buy it?

Lewis Howes 13:48 What are the thoughts we should be having after heartbreaks?

Dr. Guy Winch 13:51 Um, that if I met one, I can meet another. That if there's one person that I felt really works for me, there's gotta be another that really works for me. People aren't that unique, you know?

Lewis Howes 14:03 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 14:03 You should be able to find somebody who's in that realm.

Lewis Howes 14:05 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 14:06 Um, so our thought should be, "Boy, that sucks losing that. Boy, that's painful. That's really, really difficult," but let's actually look at what it is we lost. Because one of the things that happens is that in romantic love, for example-

Lewis Howes 14:22 Mm-hmm

Dr. Guy Winch 14:23 ... um, when that loss happens, we tend to idealize the person we lost. So we don't look back and-

Lewis Howes 14:30 It's like the greatest ever

Dr. Guy Winch 14:31 ... ever.

Lewis Howes 14:31 Everything was perfect.

Dr. Guy Winch 14:33 Everything.

Lewis Howes 14:34 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 14:34 And, and you look through the pictures in which they were smiling and look through the pictures in which you were holding hands. You do have pictures of them looking terrible or picking their nose. You're not gonna look at those, right?

Lewis Howes 14:44 Right. [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 14:44 You're gonna look only at the ones that, oh, this is... It was so amazing.

Lewis Howes 14:48 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 14:48 It was so amazing.

Lewis Howes 14:49 It was perfect.

Dr. Guy Winch 14:49 What I lost... It's, A, inaccurate, and it's certainly not gonna help you recover. And so it's terribly tempting, because your mind will bring up those images. Your mind will remind you of, oh, that restaurant, we had such a great-

Lewis Howes 15:03 Yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 15:03 ... time in that restaurant. You also had a really bad date-

Lewis Howes 15:07 Mm

Dr. Guy Winch 15:07 ... in that restaurant. You got i- into a wicked fight two weeks after the great one. You're not thinking of that.

Lewis Howes 15:13 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 15:13 So it's important to balance. It's important to say, yes, this was great about them and this was great about the relationship. Let's also focus on what was not.

Lewis Howes 15:22 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 15:23 And literally do that, not in the sense of like, yeah, let's, let's, like, think badly of them, but no, let's think realistically of them.

Lewis Howes 15:29 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 15:29 These were all the ways in which they were not great. These were all the ways in which the relationship-

Lewis Howes 15:34 Didn't work

Dr. Guy Winch 15:34 ... was not great for me.

Lewis Howes 15:35 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 15:36 These were all the compromises I made, which I was okay in making, but they were compromises.

Lewis Howes 15:41 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 15:41 These are all the friends I lost touch with because I didn't get along, or the activities I didn't do because they weren't into them, et cetera.

Lewis Howes 15:47 Yeah. And if it's, like, a three-month romantic experience where everything was perfect seeming, then do you just say, "Well, there's gotta be other people like that out there as well?"

Dr. Guy Winch 15:59 But that's a question I have, right? So let's say a three-month romantic relationship where everything seemed perfect. Really, then why did the person leave?

Lewis Howes 16:06 What if they died?

Dr. Guy Winch 16:07 I'll give you the death, but how...

Lewis Howes 16:10 [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 16:10 That's the much rarer-

Lewis Howes 16:11 That's... Yeah, yeah. Gotcha

Dr. Guy Winch 16:12 ... situation.

Lewis Howes 16:12 Gotcha.

Dr. Guy Winch 16:13 That three months into a ro- into a romance-

Lewis Howes 16:15 Right

Dr. Guy Winch 16:15 ... somebody gets hit by a car. It happens.

Lewis Howes 16:17 Yes.

Dr. Guy Winch 16:17 But those are rare.

Lewis Howes 16:18 Very rare.

Dr. Guy Winch 16:18 Really.

Lewis Howes 16:19 But if someone leaves, then you're like, "Okay, well, why did they leave?"

Dr. Guy Winch 16:21 Well, right.

Lewis Howes 16:22 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 16:22 Then how perfect was it?

Lewis Howes 16:23 Right. Right. If they were willing to let it go...

Dr. Guy Winch 16:25 If they left, A, how perfect was it if they were thinking of leaving and I didn't even realize it? So there was some-

Lewis Howes 16:30 Disconnect or, yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 16:30 ... disconnect-

Lewis Howes 16:31 Yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 16:32 ... or there was some ways in which I wasn't paying attention. So you really have to question the perfect three-month relationship-

Lewis Howes 16:38 Mm-hmm

Dr. Guy Winch 16:38 ... that ended suddenly. It could not have been that perfect.

Lewis Howes 16:41 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 16:41 And then you need to figure out, you know what? Here's how I was... Here's what I was not looking at. Here's actually... Yeah, I see all these things now, but I didn't pay attention at the time.

Lewis Howes 16:50 Mm-hmm. Yeah. So what's the process, then? When a breakup happens, do you try to connect with the person who left you or broke up with you, and talk to them and ask them questions? And... Or do you just go on your own way and process it a different way? Like, what is the best... Do you reach out to friends and family? Do you hire you as a therapist and, like, connect on these things? Like, what does someone do?

Dr. Guy Winch 17:16 Other than reading the book, no.

Lewis Howes 17:17 Yes.

Dr. Guy Winch 17:17 Uh, the, the... Here's the thing. Um, you, um, first need to acknowledge that this is really painful, and that it's okay that it's painful. There's nothing wrong with it being, uh, painful. But you have to acknowledge that you just sustained a big emotional wound, and you now need to heal. And then your question needs to be, what are the steps I need to take to heal?

Lewis Howes 17:41 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 17:41 And what are the things that are not gonna be helpful for me-

Lewis Howes 17:44 Right

Dr. Guy Winch 17:44 ... to heal?

Lewis Howes 17:45 Looking at them on Instagram or looking at photos or reminiscing constantly and...

Dr. Guy Winch 17:49 Not gonna help.

Lewis Howes 17:50 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 17:51 Um, now, for example- It is helpful to have a clear understanding of why the breakup happened. There's research that shows that if we have a clear understanding of why the breakup happened, it's a little bit easier to move on.

Lewis Howes 18:03 Mm. Yes.

Dr. Guy Winch 18:04 Not many of us get that chance. Not many of us get the chance to sit across from the person and go, "So tell me honestly why you're breaking up with me," and have the person say, "To be honest, you snored at night, I didn't like your habits this way, you didn't like my mother, and I didn't..." You're not gonna get that.

Lewis Howes 18:20 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 18:21 It's very... Some people are like, "I'll tell you."

Lewis Howes 18:23 Right, right, right.

Dr. Guy Winch 18:23 But not common.

Lewis Howes 18:25 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 18:25 And usually the ones that say, "I'll tell you," you don't feel great after they do.

Lewis Howes 18:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 18:28 Um, so the thing is, you don't need a ironclad, um, explanation. Mostly if they broke up with you, then something about that chemistry, connection didn't work for them. Something about the match wasn't, uh, perfect. Um, now it could be that this is the wrong time in their life. Their ex came back and their old feelings got reactivated.

Lewis Howes 18:54 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 18:55 Um, they really weren't emotionally available. Although they said they were really interested in a serious relationship, given their history and their age, it's possible, no, they would like to be, but they're not. Um, there are all these reasons that you can assume without getting information from the other person to conclude that here's the thing: it wasn't the right time, they weren't ready, et cetera. Um, the thing you should not do is look at all your faults, uh, or your perceived faults and say, "I just wasn't tall enough. I wasn't blonde enough. You know, my body wasn't this enough."

Lewis Howes 19:29 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 19:29 "I didn't make enough money." In other words, if they were with you for three months, your height is not an issue.

Lewis Howes 19:35 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 19:36 Because that's something that's... That's a threshold thing. In other words, if you were good enough for three months, it's not, "You know what? But after three months-

Lewis Howes 19:44 Yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 19:44 ... I realized they are too short." It, it doesn't happen that way.

Lewis Howes 19:47 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 19:47 So it's, it's very painful to start looking at all your deficiencies and going, "I just wasn't adequate. I wasn't good enough." It's not useful, it's not accurate, and it will be very demoralizing and make you hurt more.

Lewis Howes 20:01 Yeah. Eat you up inside. Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 20:03 And that's the thing most people do.

Lewis Howes 20:05 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 20:06 They literally lament, "I wasn't this enough. I just know if I was prettier, they would still be with me." Mm.

Lewis Howes 20:13 Probably not.

Dr. Guy Winch 20:13 No.

Lewis Howes 20:14 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 20:14 Because they were with you already, so once they were, you know, it's something else.

Lewis Howes 20:19 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 20:19 And so... And then it's just about the mix, you know, about the match, the chemistry. So it's much better to just assume a likely explanation and then put it aside.

Lewis Howes 20:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 20:29 And not wrestle with the question, why, why? That why question gets people on the hook for months and years on end for no good reason, because even if you, you know, the heavens open and somebody told you the why, you're still broken up.

Lewis Howes 20:43 Right. You're still hurting.

Dr. Guy Winch 20:44 So what does it matter?

Lewis Howes 20:45 Yeah. So you might as well make up your own why.

Dr. Guy Winch 20:48 Yeah. And move on from the why.

Lewis Howes 20:49 And move on from the why.

Dr. Guy Winch 20:49 Not useful.

Lewis Howes 20:50 And then still you're gonna have to heal, right? You still need time to heal-

Dr. Guy Winch 20:53 Oh, yeah. That's just one thing

Lewis Howes 20:54 ... the wound. But first, come up with a conclusion for yourself of why.

Dr. Guy Winch 20:59 Yes.

Lewis Howes 20:59 So you have something and you can put it to the side.

Dr. Guy Winch 21:02 Right.

Lewis Howes 21:02 Then you're still gonna need to process the feelings, the emotions.

Dr. Guy Winch 21:05 Right.

Lewis Howes 21:05 Correct?

Dr. Guy Winch 21:05 Right.

Lewis Howes 21:06 What's the best approach to doing that? Telling all your friends constantly and nagging them to come over and cry with you and have pizza and wine?

Dr. Guy Winch 21:14 Uh, first week, yes.

Lewis Howes 21:16 Yes. [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 21:17 No, I mean, I'm, I'm-

Lewis Howes 21:17 Yeah, of course

Dr. Guy Winch 21:18 ... I'm, I'm all for, you know-

Lewis Howes 21:19 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 21:19 ... food and alcohol as a, as a-

Lewis Howes 21:21 Yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 21:21 ... you know, emotional numbing vice, uh, device.

Lewis Howes 21:24 [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 21:24 But, but, uh, you, you need to... Yeah, so s- social support-

Lewis Howes 21:30 Uh-huh

Dr. Guy Winch 21:30 ... is a very important ingredient. People who have more social support are gonna recover more quickly.

Lewis Howes 21:34 Really?

Dr. Guy Winch 21:35 Yes.

Lewis Howes 21:35 So if you're isolating yourself, you're not gonna recover as fast.

Dr. Guy Winch 21:38 Except there are some people who do better... Remember I said there's some people-

Lewis Howes 21:42 Isolating, yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 21:42 ... who can compartmentalize and put it aside, and that works better for them. There are some people whose approach to emotional pain is, "I don't wanna talk about it," and that works for them. That is different from people who like, "I would love to talk about it, but I'll bet none of my friends want to hear it."

Lewis Howes 21:57 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 21:57 And then they don't call their friends because they're afraid their friends won't wanna hear it, yet they do have the need. That's not healthy for them.

Lewis Howes 22:04 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 22:04 If they have the need for social support, reach out, get it.

Lewis Howes 22:08 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 22:08 Um, but there are some people who are like, "I don't wanna talk about it. Talking about it makes me feel worse. I'd rather just move on." And they can, but if that's your approach, and again, four months later you haven't moved on, maybe you need to rethink your approach.

Lewis Howes 22:22 Sure.

Dr. Guy Winch 22:22 But this is the thing about there's no right answer. This is the, the... And this is the, the importance of this book. This book says to you, um, you have to monitor how you're doing, right? In other words, if you have an injury, a sports injury, which I know you've had-

Lewis Howes 22:35 Yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 22:35 ... I've had, and you go to physical therapy, you'll sometimes find within three months of physical therapy, this is much better, and sometimes it's not. And then the physical therapy clearly isn't helping, you need to try something else.

Lewis Howes 22:45 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 22:46 So you monitor a sports injury. You gauge week to week how you're doing, whether you're getting stronger-

Lewis Howes 22:51 Mm-hmm

Dr. Guy Winch 22:51 ... whether you can do more things, sensation, function is returning, what have you. You need to be monitoring your emotional recovery in the same way. Is this working? Is this not working? That made me feel worse. That just set me back three days, you know, stalking their Instagram account. Maybe that's not a good thing for me to do.

Lewis Howes 23:07 Right. Right. What do you think is more harder to recover from, an emotional injury or a physical injury?

Dr. Guy Winch 23:14 When I ask most people, "Which would you rather have, emotional pain... If you had the choice, some- here's physical pain, here's emotional pain, what are you choosing?"

Lewis Howes 23:23 I'm gonna choose physical.

Dr. Guy Winch 23:24 Everyone chooses the physical.

Lewis Howes 23:24 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 23:24 Everyone chooses the physical because when you... You know, 'cause when something hap- when you break a leg, right?

Lewis Howes 23:30 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 23:30 It is a very painful moment, a few moments thereafter, but two weeks into the leg healing, it's not that painful.

Lewis Howes 23:38 Start to get better. Yeah, the, the shock of the pain only happens for an hour maybe.

Dr. Guy Winch 23:42 Right. Emotional pain lasts and lasts and lasts. It is longer.

Lewis Howes 23:47 It's heartbreaking.

Dr. Guy Winch 23:48 Sharper. And, um-

Lewis Howes 23:49 Deeper.

Dr. Guy Winch 23:50 Yes.

Lewis Howes 23:51 Into the soul. Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 23:52 So, it... Most people would say, "I'll get... I'll take the physical."

Lewis Howes 23:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 23:56 And for example, there are people, and this is completely off-topic, but I'll just mention it.

Lewis Howes 24:00 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 24:00 There are people who do the cutting, right? Where they cut themselves with a knife, you know?

Lewis Howes 24:04 Yes.

Dr. Guy Winch 24:04 Are you familiar with that?

Lewis Howes 24:04 Yes, yes.

Dr. Guy Winch 24:05 You know, teenagers-

Lewis Howes 24:05 Yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 24:05 ... sometimes adults.

Lewis Howes 24:06 On the wrist or wherever.

Dr. Guy Winch 24:07 Yeah, the side. But what they're doing is they are feeling such emotional distress, they are distracting themselves from the emotional pain with a physical pain.

Lewis Howes 24:15 Crazy.

Dr. Guy Winch 24:16 They are choosing that as a distraction over the emotional pain.

Lewis Howes 24:20 Wow. Crazy. Um, so we should be monitoring over the following months for emotional heartbreak.

Dr. Guy Winch 24:28 Yeah, when you're recovering from anything, you should be monitoring what you're doing.

Lewis Howes 24:31 Monitor, uh, ask yourself what's working-

Dr. Guy Winch 24:32 Yeah

Lewis Howes 24:32 ... what's not working, what gave me a couple hours of relief or allowed me to move forward, and then what took me back, maybe like stalking something on social media, or are you waiting to see if they're gonna show up at a restaurant or-

Dr. Guy Winch 24:44 Right

Lewis Howes 24:44 ... seeing who they're liking or whatever on, on their life.

Dr. Guy Winch 24:46 So here's a silly example of that. So somebody will say to me, "Well, my friends called and said, 'Let's go out.' And I was like, 'Nah, I'm not in the mood.'" Now, um, you should go out.

Lewis Howes 24:57 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 24:58 And then they'll go out, and then they'll say, "Yeah, I had a fine time, but then I came back and I was, um, sad again."

Lewis Howes 25:04 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 25:04 Except that if you did- don't go out-

Lewis Howes 25:06 You're sad the whole time

Dr. Guy Winch 25:07 ... those three hou-

Lewis Howes 25:07 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 25:07 Those three hours that you were distracted and felt better and felt more connected-

Lewis Howes 25:11 Right

Dr. Guy Winch 25:11 ... um, you won't have, number one. Number two, the going out, um, with your friends is reminding you of something very important, of your life without that person. You can still go out. You still have friends. You still have a social life. You still have you.

Lewis Howes 25:28 People... Guys still flirt with you, or girls flirt with you, or you have a-

Dr. Guy Winch 25:30 That can happen certainly-

Lewis Howes 25:31 You see other opportunities

Dr. Guy Winch 25:31 ... and is less likely to happen if you're sitting at home in the dark.

Lewis Howes 25:33 [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 25:34 Um, so, so yeah, so there's a lot of value in pushing yourself to do things-

Lewis Howes 25:39 So you should go out, yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 25:39 ... even if you're not feeling great. Yes, you should go out. You should try and restore the life you had before or reinvent the life you had before. Sometimes after a 10-year relationship, you don't wanna go back-

Lewis Howes 25:50 Yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 25:50 ... to the life you had before. But you, you want to reestablish what the new single life then is. And a lot of people have the thought that, "I don't wanna reestablish what it's like to be single. I just wanna find the next person, um, and not have to have the single part." But that is... You know, like, you as a person, your sense of identity, your sense of who you are, your sense of what your life is about, what you stand for, yes, you do have to recapture that. That's part of ego and self-esteem, ego in the positive sense of it, of, of self-esteem, of feeling, uh, connected and tethered and, and know who you are and what you stand for. And, and those are important things. So reestablishing your sense of self, um, is an important step that you should not-

Lewis Howes 26:33 Yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 26:33 ... try and just skip over until you find the next person.

Lewis Howes 26:35 Right. Reestablishing those healthy habits for yourself, seeing who you are, what your identity is single, not just being-

Dr. Guy Winch 26:42 Right

Lewis Howes 26:42 ... in another relationship right away.

Dr. Guy Winch 26:43 Reminding yourself that, "Yeah, I can have a good life being single, even if I-

Lewis Howes 26:46 Right

Dr. Guy Winch 26:46 ... don't wanna be single."

Lewis Howes 26:47 Yeah. How can friends connect to someone who's gone through a heartbreak the best way? Should we be reaching out to our friends consistently? And if they're constantly complaining month after month, how do we support them then?

Dr. Guy Winch 27:03 So the general guideline is, let's say this person lost a, a first-degree relative. You would reach out to them.

Lewis Howes 27:10 Of course.

Dr. Guy Winch 27:10 You would check in on them, and you wouldn't do it for a week. You would do it for a while.

Lewis Howes 27:14 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 27:14 Um, what you would also do is you would be sensitive to what clues they're giving you about how they want to talk about it.

Lewis Howes 27:23 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 27:23 Some people will like, "Yes, I wanna talk about the loss. I wanna talk about the missing the person. I wanna talk about those things." And some people will, you will say, "How are you doing?" "I'm okay," and they'll start talking about other things. And you get the sense that they really appreciate the connection, but it'll be more helpful to them if you just connect and talk about other things-

Lewis Howes 27:41 Other stuff

Dr. Guy Winch 27:41 ... rather than about that. So that's in regular kind of grief. Same with this. In other words, reach out, ask, but also be aware that, you know, if they don't want to talk about it-

Lewis Howes 27:52 Don't push them, pressure, yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 27:53 ... don't push, but show them you are there in case-

Lewis Howes 27:56 Mm-hmm

Dr. Guy Winch 27:56 ... they do-

Lewis Howes 27:57 Mm-hmm

Dr. Guy Winch 27:57 ... want to talk about it. So-

Lewis Howes 27:58 This the ro- romantic breakup as well?

Dr. Guy Winch 28:00 For all, yeah-

Lewis Howes 28:01 Yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 28:01 ... for pet loss, romantic breakups, with one caveat, 'cause you asked two questions essentially.

Lewis Howes 28:05 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 28:05 A, how are you there for someone? And the other question you asked really was, what do you do when you see somebody floundering?

Lewis Howes 28:11 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 28:12 You see somebody not recovering, you see somebody stuck. Do you say something? You know, "It's been five months and you're still talking about it the same way." How do you approach them? How do you let them know that you think they need to deal-

Lewis Howes 28:23 Mm-hmm

Dr. Guy Winch 28:23 ... um, slightly differently? And I would just do it in a very matter-of-fact but compassionate way of saying, "Look, um, I'm happy to talk to you about this whenever you want. So I wanna be super clear that I am your friend. I'm happy to talk to you whenever you want. I do wanna point something out to you. You sound the same now as you did five months ago, so I'm not sure you are recovering as well as, as speedily, as, uh, efficiently as you could be. You are still so sad. And I'm not saying the loss wasn't significant. It was. But you sh- it should be getting better, and I'm worried that it's not. And so I'm gonna suggest you think about approaching your recovery in a different way-

Lewis Howes 29:10 Mm

Dr. Guy Winch 29:10 ... doing something different, taking some different steps, because you feel stuck."

Lewis Howes 29:15 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 29:15 Now, they might come and they go, "What are you talking about? I don't feel stuck at all." And you're like, "All right, you said it." As a friend, that's your duty.

Lewis Howes 29:24 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 29:24 Say it. Put the idea in their head.

Lewis Howes 29:26 Right. Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 29:27 But you can't force them.

Lewis Howes 29:28 Right. Did you ever have a, a challenging heartbreak, either romantically or with a pet, that took you a long time to overcome, even though this is stuff you study and you work with people as a psychologist all the time and-

Dr. Guy Winch 29:39 Yeah. Amazingly, that doesn't make you immune to anything, you know?

Lewis Howes 29:42 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 29:42 In other words... I'll, I'll tell you a story about a, a, a, my, uh, childhood pet, uh, was a dog. She was a collie.

Lewis Howes 29:50 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 29:50 Um, and she was, um, a neurotic-

Lewis Howes 29:53 [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 29:54 ... dog, and I'm- You know, my brother and I are both psychologists, so not because of the dog I don't think, but certainly she was really neurotic. Um, we got her, I forgot how old we were, but, um, there was a point in which she was older and, um, we were, um, leaving, uh, the country. And, um, we had, we could give her to someone, but no one wanted a-

Lewis Howes 30:20 An old dog, or yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 30:20 ... 10-year-old collie. Um, and so we decided the more humane thing to do would be to put her to sleep. She was-

Lewis Howes 30:27 Mm

Dr. Guy Winch 30:27 ... you know, she had cancer, she had a, a medical history.

Lewis Howes 30:30 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 30:31 And we found a vet, uh, and we told him the situation. And he said, um, "Well, I, uh, sad, I get it. Neurotic dog, she's not gonna do that great with new owners. Maybe that's the best thing to do. Um, bring her in."

Lewis Howes 30:48 Wow.

Dr. Guy Winch 30:50 So we, we brought her in, and, um, I put her on the table.

Lewis Howes 30:54 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 30:55 And he's, you know, he's petting her. He's a young vet.

Lewis Howes 30:59 Wow.

Dr. Guy Winch 31:00 He's petting her, and then he starts examining her teeth. And I'm like, "This is very thorough for a, uh-

Lewis Howes 31:06 [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 31:07 ... is this for the coffin?"

Lewis Howes 31:09 Right, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 31:09 "Is he gonna, like, select her dress to put, like what's, what, what's going on?"

Lewis Howes 31:12 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 31:12 And he goes, "You know, she looks much younger than 10." And I'm like, "Yeah, she's a young-looking 10-year-old collie. I'm not sure where this is going." He said, "Look, um, I know she's neurotic. I can see she's tense. But I'm really good with animals, and I have a wonderful clientele. I know you guys are leaving and you can't take her. What if I brought her here for two weeks and displayed her-

Lewis Howes 31:43 Mm-hmm

Dr. Guy Winch 31:44 ... for my clients, and see if anyone that I know has a good home and a good heart wanted her? Would that be okay?" Now, we had tried to give her away-

Lewis Howes 31:55 Mm

Dr. Guy Winch 31:55 ... or find people, but we couldn't.

Lewis Howes 31:56 No, yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 31:56 And I said, "Um, what if you can't?" He goes, "Here's what I'm proposing. Pay me for the injection. Leave her here. In two weeks you can call me and find out if I was able to place her or not, and then think what you want." And my brother and I looked at one another. We were like really emotional, because just the idea of it. And at that point-

Lewis Howes 32:21 You already thought the dog was gonna be-

Dr. Guy Winch 32:23 I know

Lewis Howes 32:23 ... gone in 10 minutes

Dr. Guy Winch 32:24 It, it was torturous, right?

Lewis Howes 32:25 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 32:25 And at that point, the vet's wife runs into the room and starts screaming at him. "No, no. Your practice has been open for six months, and we have seven dogs at home." He looks at, she looks at us, she goes, "He's not gonna offer her to anyone. He's taking her home, I'm telling you right now. No, I won't have another dog." [laughs]

Lewis Howes 32:47 Shut up. Oh, my God.

Dr. Guy Winch 32:49 And he looked at her and he goes, "But look at the dog. The dog's great," and, um, that's, that's what happened. And then he said, "No, no, I will..." You know, his wife is still there glaring, but he goes, "No, no, I, I will be trying to offer to other people."

Lewis Howes 33:01 Oh, my God.

Dr. Guy Winch 33:01 But he was kind of saying, "I'll probably take her."

Lewis Howes 33:03 Oh, wow.

Dr. Guy Winch 33:05 And so that's what we did. We paid him for the injection.

Lewis Howes 33:08 Wow.

Dr. Guy Winch 33:09 We left her there. We sobbed on the way out. It was horrible. It's like leaving your kid for camp knowing you're not coming to pick them up. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 33:17 Oh, wow.

Dr. Guy Winch 33:18 It was so horrible. We felt horrifically guilty. We felt like we are such terrible people, we couldn't take the dog with us. And, and so, you know, but he seemed like a really good person, obviously, if that's the issue he was having as a vet. Um, and then the question came two weeks later.

Lewis Howes 33:36 Did you call?

Dr. Guy Winch 33:38 What would you have done?

Lewis Howes 33:41 Oh. I don't know. I would've just imagined that he was in a happy place with a home.

Dr. Guy Winch 33:47 That's what we did.

Lewis Howes 33:48 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 33:49 We assumed that, you know, she's with him.

Lewis Howes 33:51 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 33:51 This is a great guy. She, we assumed she was with him. We didn't wanna call and find out that wasn't the case.

Lewis Howes 33:57 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 33:57 And that allowed us to think she's gonna go have a good home.

Lewis Howes 33:59 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 33:59 This is a great guy.

Lewis Howes 34:00 Maybe a few more years.

Dr. Guy Winch 34:00 He's great with dogs.

Lewis Howes 34:01 Sure. [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 34:01 She'll have the best care, obviously.

Lewis Howes 34:03 Maybe a couple more years, who knows?

Dr. Guy Winch 34:05 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 34:06 And then she'll-

Dr. Guy Winch 34:07 Right

Lewis Howes 34:07 ... pass on her own.

Dr. Guy Winch 34:08 But the guilt stayed with me for a long time.

Lewis Howes 34:11 Really?

Dr. Guy Winch 34:12 Yeah, because, look, this is your dog.

Lewis Howes 34:15 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 34:15 You know, your-

Lewis Howes 34:16 Abandoning your friend-

Dr. Guy Winch 34:17 Yeah

Lewis Howes 34:17 ... who's been with you for 10 years.

Dr. Guy Winch 34:19 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 34:19 Who's-

Dr. Guy Winch 34:19 It, it's, there's no easy, now, the, there's no great way to feel about that, you know? And I felt guilty for a long time. And at some point, and I didn't do work on feeling guilty, 'cause indeed I was moving to the States. I had a whole new, you know, I had a lot-

Lewis Howes 34:34 A passion, a career you were chasing

Dr. Guy Winch 34:35 ... I had a, you know, set up a new life. I, uh, there was a lot on my plate. But I realized a couple of years later, when every time people would, I would go to people and they had a dog and I would be like, [laughs] just petting the dog.

Lewis Howes 34:48 [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 34:48 Or, like, I would be like, I need to do some work on this, because I'm not out of the woods yet.

Lewis Howes 34:52 You're still affected, yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 34:52 I, I'm, this hasn't been processed well.

Lewis Howes 34:55 Wow. So did you start doing some work on it?

Dr. Guy Winch 34:57 I did. I did.

Lewis Howes 34:58 What did you do?

Dr. Guy Winch 35:00 Um, at the time I was in therapy. When you're in graduate school for, to become a psychologist, they strongly recommend-

Lewis Howes 35:05 You're in therapy all day

Dr. Guy Winch 35:05 ... that you be in therapy. No, because you should know your stuff, right?

Lewis Howes 35:08 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 35:08 And so I, I actually did discuss it. I talked about it in therapy and I talked about it for quite a bit, and I-

Lewis Howes 35:13 Right

Dr. Guy Winch 35:13 ... came to, you know, and I really went through, A, is the guilt warranted? Could I have done something better? Should I have fought for... And, and it really, there weren't really alternatives like that, but I had to go through a process of self-forgiveness. Um-

Lewis Howes 35:29 Really?

Dr. Guy Winch 35:29 ... which is what I did. And-

Lewis Howes 35:30 So you forgive yourself, then you can move on.

Dr. Guy Winch 35:32 Yeah, and my brother went through a process where he kind of vowed that any dog he has is gonna be, you know, uh, the next dog is gonna be a rescue dog.

Lewis Howes 35:39 Oh, wow.

Dr. Guy Winch 35:39 And, uh, his next dog was a rescue dog.

Lewis Howes 35:41 Oh, that's cool.

Dr. Guy Winch 35:41 And, and so that was, it was many years later, um, it was probably 20 years later that he had his next dog. Um, but it was a rescue dog, and he, he wanted to, to do that-

Lewis Howes 35:52 Mm

Dr. Guy Winch 35:52 ... you know, kind of in her name.

Lewis Howes 35:54 Now, this might be interesting. You felt a lot of guilt with the dog, right? For y- for how long? [laughs] I'm pretty-

Dr. Guy Winch 36:00 Well, probably a couple of years there.

Lewis Howes 36:01 Couple years.

Dr. Guy Winch 36:02 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 36:02 Now, was there ever a romantic relationship where it took longer than that for you to heal?

Dr. Guy Winch 36:08 No.

Lewis Howes 36:08 [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 36:10 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 36:12 Why is that?

Dr. Guy Winch 36:13 'Cause I didn't put anyone to sleep.

Lewis Howes 36:15 Right, right. There you go.

Dr. Guy Winch 36:16 I didn't-

Lewis Howes 36:17 I guess you're killing some-

Dr. Guy Winch 36:18 Give them-

Lewis Howes 36:18 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 36:19 I didn't drop them off somewhere and go-

Lewis Howes 36:20 Right

Dr. Guy Winch 36:20 ... "I'll be back later maybe," you know? Like-

Lewis Howes 36:22 [laughs] That's so bad. [laughs] Oh, man. So what was the longest it took [laughs] you with a romantic, with a romantic relationship, what was the longest it took?

Dr. Guy Winch 36:35 To get over?

Lewis Howes 36:35 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 36:39 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 36:39 Oh.

Dr. Guy Winch 36:40 Um, well the ones I paid for the injection, it was really-

Lewis Howes 36:44 [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 36:44 No, I'm joking. Um, um, I... Look, I'm... my general guideline is I think the recovery does have to be in proportion to the length of the relationship.

Lewis Howes 36:53 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 36:54 So I think-

Lewis Howes 36:54 Does it matter if it's a dog, animal, or-

Dr. Guy Winch 36:56 Yeah

Lewis Howes 36:56 ... well.

Dr. Guy Winch 36:56 But, you know, I mean, but then again, if you're dating somebody for two weeks, it might take two years to get over, but-

Lewis Howes 37:01 Mm-hmm

Dr. Guy Winch 37:01 ... usually it should take less-

Lewis Howes 37:02 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 37:02 ... than if you were dating-

Lewis Howes 37:03 Yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 37:03 ... for two years or for 20.

Lewis Howes 37:04 Got it. Got it.

Dr. Guy Winch 37:05 And in my experience, my, my limited experience of me, the, the, the recoveries have been proportionate-

Lewis Howes 37:12 Mm

Dr. Guy Winch 37:12 ... um, to the length of relationships. But I was also very much aware of that in my recoveries. I was very much aware that this is the relationship, this is how long it should take, these are the steps-

Lewis Howes 37:24 Ah

Dr. Guy Winch 37:24 ... I need to take. I was not a, a passive participant in my recoveries.

Lewis Howes 37:28 You were active.

Dr. Guy Winch 37:28 I was a very active, uh, person in general as a psychologist, and since I'm informed of the information and I know the tools I can use and steps I should take, it would be silly of me not to.

Lewis Howes 37:39 Right. Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 37:39 And so I tend to.

Lewis Howes 37:40 So you're like, "I need to go out three times a week with my friends."

Dr. Guy Winch 37:42 Oh, yeah.

Lewis Howes 37:42 "I need to go out-"

Dr. Guy Winch 37:42 No, I had to force myself to do those things.

Lewis Howes 37:43 "I need to go to the dog park, I needed to go do this-"

Dr. Guy Winch 37:45 Yeah

Lewis Howes 37:45 ... or whatever. Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 37:46 It was literally like-

Lewis Howes 37:47 Work out every day

Dr. Guy Winch 37:47 ... I don't feel like it, but I know it's good for me.

Lewis Howes 37:49 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 37:49 I feel like doing this, but that's not gonna help. Um, so-

Lewis Howes 37:52 And over time you just start to feel better. You just start to feel like-

Dr. Guy Winch 37:55 You recover more quickly.

Lewis Howes 37:56 Oh, yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 37:56 It is less painful.

Lewis Howes 37:57 Yeah. Exactly.

Dr. Guy Winch 37:58 And there's something empowering about feeling like, here are tools, and I'm using them.

Lewis Howes 38:02 Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's cool. What's the greatest part about being a, a psychologist, therapist for you? You meet with people every single day who come to your office in New York City. What's the greatest part of it for you?

Dr. Guy Winch 38:15 The greatest part is not what I would've expected when I started. Um, I've been in practice for 25 years, and I have people who I saw when they were eight years old, who came with their parents, who 20 years later call me and saying, "I'm 28. Um, you saw me when I was eight. I wanted to come see you about something."

Lewis Howes 38:34 Wow.

Dr. Guy Winch 38:35 Um, or people that I saw as a couple for, 10 years ago, who are like, "We need to come back for a few sessions." People, um, I think need to use a psychologist, or this is at least my approach to therapy, is I'm a family doctor in that sense. Um, I'm not going anywhere.

Lewis Howes 38:51 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 38:51 We'll come, we'll work on stuff. Other things will happen in your life. You'll need to go and see someone at some point. You come back and you leave as needed. There is no, you must be in therapy once a week for this many years and then never again.

Lewis Howes 39:03 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 39:03 Not how it works.

Lewis Howes 39:04 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 39:05 And so to me, the greatest satisfaction is I get to see the stories unfold.

Lewis Howes 39:10 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 39:10 I get many, many Christmas cards every year-

Lewis Howes 39:14 Wow

Dr. Guy Winch 39:14 ... um, of people who send me their family pictures, their individual updates from 15, from 20 years now, of telling me how they're doing. And I always write back and I always cherish them because that's the satisfaction. Like, look how their lives are progressing. So to be able to see the full story-

Lewis Howes 39:33 Mm

Dr. Guy Winch 39:34 ... um, is a real gift.

Lewis Howes 39:36 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 39:36 Because you were involved in that story. You care. And often they leave, and then did it work out? Did it not? Did they, you know... And in many cases I do find out.

Lewis Howes 39:45 That's cool.

Dr. Guy Winch 39:46 I do lo- and, and it's great.

Lewis Howes 39:47 Wow. That's cool. What's the biggest lesson you've learned about yourself from 20 plus, 28 years now? Practice, 25.

Dr. Guy Winch 39:53 25.

Lewis Howes 39:53 25. [laughs] 25 years of practice.

Dr. Guy Winch 39:56 The biggest lesson I learned about me?

Lewis Howes 39:57 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 39:59 Hmm. That is a tricky question.

Lewis Howes 40:02 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 40:02 Um, there are probably all kinds of lessons I've learned about me. The, I've learned about, um... Well, I'll answer this way. There's, it never fails that it happens very frequently that somebody will come in and talk about something, and I will have a moment where I'm going like, "Huh, I need to address that in my own life."

Lewis Howes 40:22 In your own life.

Dr. Guy Winch 40:23 Or that's something I didn't do well in my own life, which I didn't realize until they started talking about something that was so similar that I realized, ugh, I'm guilty of that. Um, so when you're talking with somebody about, and when you have many patients, eventually, and not that eventually, frequently, it's gonna dovetail with things that are going on in your own life. Um, I have authors I work with talk about their books and the frustrations about marketing books-

Lewis Howes 40:48 [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 40:48 ... and I'm like, "Mm. [laughs] I feel like applauding." But, um, but it, it really helps me because then I, I have at least the, the honesty with myself of if that happens, to not ignore it and go, "Yeah, but..." To then actually do some thinking about it and then figure things out about it.

Lewis Howes 41:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 41:05 And to me that's, I mean, that's great. That's a great gift.

Lewis Howes 41:08 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 41:08 Um, so that's what I learned about myself. It's these little moments where somebody's going through something that I had gone through or am going through, and I realize through their narrative that there are options that I hadn't explored.

Lewis Howes 41:20 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 41:20 There are things or-

Lewis Howes 41:21 New tools that you hadn't-

Dr. Guy Winch 41:22 New tools or new perspectives that I should be adopting.

Lewis Howes 41:25 Mm-hmm. What's the greatest challenge you face in your own life right now?

Dr. Guy Winch 41:29 Hmm. Um, it's not a challenge per se, but as you get older, um, and this is trite for people who have gotten older, but it's turns out it's true. As you get older, you start to care more and more about legacy, about what's your impact on the world. Are you just in this life visiting, taking what you can, or are you trying to have an impact? Are you trying to, um, change? Are you trying to help? Are you trying to, um, leave this place b- Better in your small way than when, than how you found it.

Lewis Howes 42:06 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 42:07 Um, and that becomes more urgent, uh, because you have less time to do it. You know, when you're younger, you can, "I'll get to that." Um, and as you get older, you... it feels more important to, to... for me, just for me, I'm not saying for everyone.

Lewis Howes 42:20 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 42:21 But for me to make sure that I can do what I can do.

Lewis Howes 42:25 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 42:25 And so my next challenge, mission assignment is to continue to doing that, and then figure out what's the next... So right now it's about heartbreak. Right now it's about all these heartbroken people walking around, and the people around them who don't know how to deal, who, you know, who are not really doing the right thing for themselves and could be, and that's information I really wanna get out there. And after that, there'll be the next piece of life that I wanna tackle-

Lewis Howes 42:53 Mm

Dr. Guy Winch 42:53 ... and say to people, "Oh, here's another piece of life you can do better with, and that we're not really talking about." Because in, in all my books, the theme, the thread throughout them is they all are about issues that we all confront on a daily basis, but do not talk about. My first book, The Squeaky Wheel, is about the psychology of complaining, um, and complaining is a broad thing. It means how we complain to our spouse, to our friend, to our colleague, to customer service, in all those realms. And, uh, complaining psychology is very screwed up-

Lewis Howes 43:23 [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 43:23 ... and we do that very poorly-

Lewis Howes 43:24 Yes

Dr. Guy Winch 43:24 ... and very ignorantly. Um, the next book, Emotional First Aid, was about the common wounds of daily life, like failure, rejection, loneliness, and how there are very clear steps we need to take to heal.

Lewis Howes 43:35 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 43:36 Um, and yet we don't, and yet, so here are these steps. This is what you need to know. This is about heartbreak. The through line is daily experiences that are not pathology, right? They're not depression or anxiety.

Lewis Howes 43:49 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 43:49 So we don't talk about them enough. And emotional health, something we need to pay more attention to. So it's all in that vein. And so the next thing is gonna be the next aspect of that-

Lewis Howes 44:00 Yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 44:00 ... that I will choose to tackle that I think needs to be spoken about more-

Lewis Howes 44:04 [clears throat]

Dr. Guy Winch 44:04 ... and people need to be more informed about, and yet they're not.

Lewis Howes 44:07 Mm. What do you think is limiting you or holding you back from doing more of what you want faster?

Dr. Guy Winch 44:14 Hmm. Um, hours in the day. Um, and I, I do make... I have in my life made certain choices. Um, people who have seen my first TED Talk will know that I have a twin brother, identical twin brother-

Lewis Howes 44:33 Yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 44:33 ... who's also a psychologist, who, um, has, um, cancer.

Lewis Howes 44:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 44:38 And he's had it for a long time. Um, and he's, uh, in remission, but he's not cured. It's not a curable cancer. Um, I long ago, around the time of the diagnosis obviously, made a decision that there's a certain amount of time I'm gonna carve out to spend with him, and, um, it's a significant amount of time. Um, that's time I'm not gonna be in my office working, I'm not gonna be writing, I'm just gonna be spending with him, um, because that's really important-

Lewis Howes 45:08 Mm

Dr. Guy Winch 45:08 ... for me. Um, that limits things in a certain way. My practice is really important for me because I, my work is to talk about the human experience. My practice puts me in touch with the human experience. I am a sample of one. I'm not sufficient to think about, "This is how it works for me, therefore, this is how it works for people." Um, that's not sufficient. Reading science journals is not sufficient. Working with regular people in their daily lives-

Lewis Howes 45:34 [coughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 45:34 ... through their variety of struggles is incredibly informative, is incredibly useful, and incredibly grounding. And then that's not a part I'm willing to give up.

Lewis Howes 45:44 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 45:44 Um, so with those, um, you know, uh, uh, limitations, there's only so much time left over for, you know, the writing, the speaking, and I do, I think, quite a bit of it. Um, so I try to maximize how much time I can do that, but, um, there are, you know... I don't wanna sacrifice-

Lewis Howes 46:04 Yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 46:04 ... my time with my brother-

Lewis Howes 46:05 Mm

Dr. Guy Winch 46:06 ... my practice, my personal life, you know, uh, for the sake of, you know... I'm, I'm not that, uh, you know, uh, selfless that I will be like, "My needs don't matter."

Lewis Howes 46:16 Right, right.

Dr. Guy Winch 46:16 That's part of my message, so kind of they do.

Lewis Howes 46:18 Yeah, exactly. Interesting. What's the g- what's the common theme over 28 years you've learned about people? What's the thing that we all want and need the most, and that we're all looking for?

Dr. Guy Winch 46:32 Um, the thing, it's, again, gonna sound like duh, but, um, the... I'll say it this way. My, my last book is in 24 languages. Um, languages, you know, it's in Arabic, it's in Indonesian, it's in Vietnamese. What it taught me was that our emotional, um, fabric, um, our emotional DNA is identical. Our emotional experience of the world and how we tend to react is far more similar than disparate. And we always tend to think, "Well, I feel this way, but other people don't in that situation," or, "I'm feeling insecure in this situation, but other people don't seem to be. I feel really pained by this mild rejection that happened when my colleagues went to lunch but didn't invite me, but someone else would shrug it off." And what I've learned is that, no, the person who looks like they're shrugging it off are not manifesting it, but it stung because it stings when your colleagues go to lunch without you, even if you didn't want to go to lunch with them. Even if they're going to a steakhouse and you're a vegan, the rejection of it stings. I've learned that there is something extraordinarily universal about our emotional experience, and it crosses cultures, it crosses age, it crosses gender, it crosses race, um, it crosses nationality, and it binds us. And yet we don't experience the commonalities we have with the human race all over the planet as we really have a very similar emotional experience. Now, somebody from a war-torn zone, it does not have the same emotional experience as I do because them, they're dealing with survival.

Lewis Howes 48:12 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 48:13 They're not dealing with, "Am I happy today?" They're dealing with, "Is a bomb falling on me today?" It's a very different... You don't have the luxury to ask whether you're happy when bombs are falling on you.

Lewis Howes 48:22 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 48:22 In that sense, it's not a similar experience. But, um, when you look at the similar situations, we respond similarly.

Lewis Howes 48:30 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 48:30 And that universality and that is something I feel is such a strong bond we should have with one another, that we all bleed the same when it comes to emotions. Um, it is, it, it makes me warm to humanity when somebody comes into my office who's very different than me-

Lewis Howes 48:47 Mm

Dr. Guy Winch 48:47 ... in terms of their life experience, their race, their age, whatever it is, um, and they start talking and I always, I'll remember, 'cause I know it, but I always am struck by how much we're similar.

Lewis Howes 48:58 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 48:58 How much we respond the same.

Lewis Howes 49:00 Our feelings, yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 49:01 And, yes, and I get them because I feel those things. Um, and that's the thing, the thing that struck me most in my practice, which is a New York City, so it's incredibly varied.

Lewis Howes 49:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 49:11 Um, you know, I'm not in some kind of place where I have all of the same people of the same race, the same culture. It's very varied. And yet, when people are in my office, it doesn't matter what their race or culture are. I mean, it does for certain things, of course-

Lewis Howes 49:24 Right

Dr. Guy Winch 49:24 ... just because that's their context and that's the life experience. But in terms of their emotional responses to typical things, it doesn't.

Lewis Howes 49:31 Hm. Has there ever been a challenge brought to you by someone over 28 years that you didn't feel like you could find a solution for?

Dr. Guy Winch 49:40 Hm.

Lewis Howes 49:41 That was just like, "I don't know. I don't have the answer."

Dr. Guy Winch 49:43 Yeah, I can't help you. Um, so sorry.

Lewis Howes 49:46 Figure it out. Like, just take some time. It's just gonna take time and I hope, wish you luck, you know.

Dr. Guy Winch 49:52 Look, I'll, I'll be honest with you. Um, no. And here's what concerns me about saying no.

Lewis Howes 49:57 [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 49:59 [laughs] 'Cause I know the answer is no, 'cause it just hasn't happened, but then I thought, "Well, what does that mean? Am I that conceited-

Lewis Howes 50:04 Good

Dr. Guy Winch 50:04 ... that I think no will, will..." But actually, um, here's why it's no. Because I don't need to know the answer when they come in. I just need to know how to explore or what, how to start getting out of the stuck place they're in. If somebody comes in and says, "We are stuck," which is a general theme-

Lewis Howes 50:25 Right

Dr. Guy Winch 50:25 ... that's a general language of somebody going to therapy, something's not working, I'm stuck with a relationship to this to that, then they're stuck because they are seeing things in a certain perspective. The minute I'm looking at things in a different perspective, they are less stuck in my mind because they're stuck because they are seeing it like, "I'm stuck because I'm unhappy with my partner and I can't leave them for A, B, C, and D." And I know that's assuming the partner can't change at all, which is probably not true. That's assuming A, B, C, and D are all valid in the same way, which are probably not true.

Lewis Howes 50:54 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 50:54 That's assuming they tried everything, which is also probably not true. So I don't have to know the answer. I just have to know what options they have, how to help them think through developing new options.

Lewis Howes 51:06 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 51:06 How to show them a slightly different perspective on how they're thinking about things that makes them feel less stuck in that perspective.

Lewis Howes 51:14 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 51:14 So that I can do. And in that sense, no.

Lewis Howes 51:16 Yeah. There you go. [laughs] There you go.

Dr. Guy Winch 51:18 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 51:19 Uh, got a couple questions left for you, but make sure you guys get the book, How to Fix a Broken Heart. It's out right now. Go check it out. Also, a great TED Talk that you should watch as well. It's called the same thing, How to Fix a Broken Heart.

Dr. Guy Winch 51:30 It'll probably be called How to Fix a Broken Heart.

Lewis Howes 51:32 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 51:32 But if you go to TED.com and just put in Guy even-

Lewis Howes 51:35 G-U-I

Dr. Guy Winch 51:36 ... not Guy Winch, um, you'll see my profile then you'll find both my TED Talks.

Lewis Howes 51:40 Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Guy Winch 51:40 Or my website, guywinch.com will have, will feature them prominently.

Lewis Howes 51:44 Both of them, yes. Um, so go, go pick up the book. Are you Guy Winch on, uh, Twitter and Instagram as well? Facebook?

Dr. Guy Winch 51:50 Guy Winch on Twitter. Um, Guy Winch Author on Facebook.

Lewis Howes 51:54 Oh.

Dr. Guy Winch 51:54 And shamefully-

Lewis Howes 51:55 Not on Instagram

Dr. Guy Winch 51:56 ... I am not on Instagram.

Lewis Howes 51:57 What are you gonna do about it? You gotta get on.

Dr. Guy Winch 51:59 I actually, I signed up.

Lewis Howes 52:00 Oh, okay, good.

Dr. Guy Winch 52:01 But that's it.

Lewis Howes 52:01 But you're never on there.

Dr. Guy Winch 52:03 No.

Lewis Howes 52:03 It's a waste of your time.

Dr. Guy Winch 52:04 It's not a waste of my time, it's making choices about-

Lewis Howes 52:08 Is, you don't have the time. Yeah, yeah

Dr. Guy Winch 52:09 ... it's making choices.

Lewis Howes 52:10 There you go. Okay. Uh, well go check him out on Twitter and Facebook. Um, and your website. This is called the three truths, this question. Imagine you've achieved everything you want.

Dr. Guy Winch 52:21 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 52:21 You've built a legacy, you've written all the books, all your wisdom is gotten out of you. You did it all.

Dr. Guy Winch 52:27 Mm.

Lewis Howes 52:28 And you feel like, "You know what? I did it all. I feel complete, feel solid, like my life meant something, it mattered, my legacy will go on." But for whatever reason, every- [laughs] This is the best. But for whatever reason, everything you've created has been erased. [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 52:43 [laughs] I love finishing on an upbeat note. Please.

Lewis Howes 52:46 [laughs] Everything's been erased, so no one has access to, to any of your information anymore.

Dr. Guy Winch 52:51 Uh-huh.

Lewis Howes 52:52 Right? [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 52:52 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 52:53 But it's the last day for you. [laughs] Why I'm laughing about this. But it's the last day for you. This is many years from now, 100 plus years from now, right?

Dr. Guy Winch 53:03 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 53:04 Uh, no more TED Talks. [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 53:07 No, I got the picture.

Lewis Howes 53:08 No more, no more 50 Shades.

Dr. Guy Winch 53:08 Someone looked at the book and it happened.

Lewis Howes 53:09 [laughs] Yes. Everything's erased. Um, and you have a piece of paper and a pen. [laughs] Something about when I hang out with you now it makes me laugh.

Dr. Guy Winch 53:19 No, because I'm curious about where is this going? [laughs]

Lewis Howes 53:23 You have a piece of paper and a pen, right?

Dr. Guy Winch 53:25 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 53:25 And you get to write down the three things you know to be true about everything you've learned.

Dr. Guy Winch 53:30 Okay.

Lewis Howes 53:30 Maybe, maybe you've written about these things, maybe you've talked about them, but they don't have that information anymore.

Dr. Guy Winch 53:34 Okay.

Lewis Howes 53:35 All they have is a piece of paper left by you, which you could write down three lessons or three truths from everything you've learned that you would pass on-

Dr. Guy Winch 53:42 Okay, so distill it down to three things

Lewis Howes 53:43 ... three things of like, this is all that you have access of me anymore.

Dr. Guy Winch 53:48 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 53:48 Even though you got to share it, it was erased. This is all you have left. These three truths from Guy Winch to the world, what would you write down as your three biggest lessons or three truths, and that's all people would have?

Dr. Guy Winch 54:02 Um, all right. Um, here's one. Uh, one is prioritize your emotional health.

Lewis Howes 54:11 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 54:11 Pay attention. Make it important. Be proactive about it. Um, that to me is very important. Um, number two I would say, um- If you have this feeling in this situation, other people do, too.

Lewis Howes 54:27 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 54:28 Even if you don't see it. So you don't need to walk around feeling, "What's wrong with me? Why am I having this reaction? Why do I not... Why do I..." Other people do, too. They don't show it, and you might not show it either, but they're having a similar experience or, or they would have a similar experience in your circumstance.

Lewis Howes 54:47 Right.

Dr. Guy Winch 54:47 Um, and the third thing... And by the way, since I'm just answering off the hat, which is to say if this actually happens, I might with more thought change some of these.

Lewis Howes 54:58 Of course. Of course.

Dr. Guy Winch 54:58 This is just the first-

Lewis Howes 54:59 Off the top of your mind

Dr. Guy Winch 54:59 ... th- the, the first, uh, blush is, um, uh... And this is not new, but people still don't buy this enough, um, and to me it's hugely important. Self-criticism isn't valuable. It actually doesn't do much.

Lewis Howes 55:17 What do you mean by that?

Dr. Guy Winch 55:18 When you... We all get self-critical. We, uh, we criticize ourselves. We call ourselves stupid or a loser. "I'm such an idiot." You know, "Why do I have these feelings? Why did I react that way? What's wrong with me? Oh, why... I'm so, I'm so stu-" People literally have an internal voice in their head, many of us, that is harsh and cruel, and they literally, when they are feeling worse, they beat themselves up.

Lewis Howes 55:43 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Guy Winch 55:43 It is a... A- and it's something many people do. When we feel bad, we become self-critical. Um-

Lewis Howes 55:49 Why?

Dr. Guy Winch 55:50 I always ask, what do you think you're getting out of that? Well, A, I deserve it. B, it'll, it'll prepare me for next time. Mm, no it won't.

Lewis Howes 55:58 [laughs]

Dr. Guy Winch 55:58 And, um, C, it'll lower my expectations appropriately. Mm, no, it'll just demoralize you. Um, so, uh, people have all these reasons for why that's an okay thing to do. Um, it is pointless. It is, it is damaging. It is... It's a self-esteem thing. Like, we need to build our self-esteem in difficult moments-

Lewis Howes 56:17 Mm-hmm

Dr. Guy Winch 56:17 ... and our tendency is to do the exact opposite. And, um, it is incredibly damaging. And when I put people on the spot and I s- say, "No," and I can prove to them that it's useless, that the one thing that they think is useful about it actually isn't. Because if you wanna actually look at your mistakes, you don't have to be self-critical about it. You can just say factually, "I probably shouldn't have said that on the date because that probably was inappropriate to talk about my ex, um, for 20 minutes in the first half hour of a date. Um, eh, wrong," without going, "I'm such an idiot. What's wrong with me? I'm a loser. I'll never meet somebody 'cause I'm such a loser." Not necessarily the second part.

Lewis Howes 56:54 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 56:54 First part, true.

Lewis Howes 56:55 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 56:55 Don't need the second part to make the point.

Lewis Howes 56:56 Acknowledge it and move on. Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 56:57 Yeah. And the first part, actually, you will listen to much more if you don't add that stuff on later on that'll just make you feel so terrible.

Lewis Howes 57:04 Mm-hmm. [clears throat]

Dr. Guy Winch 57:05 So-

Lewis Howes 57:05 Right

Dr. Guy Winch 57:05 ... self-criticism, not useful.

Lewis Howes 57:06 Don't need it.

Dr. Guy Winch 57:07 Yeah. Very automatic. Stop it.

Lewis Howes 57:09 Right. Acknowledgment is good-

Dr. Guy Winch 57:11 Mm

Lewis Howes 57:11 ... but not criticizing-

Dr. Guy Winch 57:12 Right

Lewis Howes 57:13 ... for hours afterwards.

Dr. Guy Winch 57:14 Right.

Lewis Howes 57:14 Got it. Those are good three truths off the top of your head.

Dr. Guy Winch 57:16 There we go.

Lewis Howes 57:17 I like it. I like it. Um, before I ask the final question, I wanna acknowledge you for a moment, Guy. I really value your relationship, and the information you did the first podcast has stayed with me. I think it was very powerful for me at a time when I was going through, uh, a lot of emotional... I needed some emotional first aid myself during that time, and it helped so many people. And I think the work that you're doing, whether it be one-on-one with couples or individuals, you're making a massive impact. The TED Talks you do, this book, everything you do, you do it with a uniqueness. There's something about you that brings also this witty humor and fun to things as well, and you're able to connect universal ideas to help us all relate to the idea so we can use it more effectively, these tools, in our life. So I wanna acknowledge you for constantly diving into the research, to studying your information, to mastering it, because you work extremely hard to make something so complicated so much easier to experience for all of us. I wanna acknowledge you for that.

Dr. Guy Winch 58:19 Thank you very much.

Lewis Howes 58:20 Of course. Um, make sure you guys get the book, How to Fix a Broken Heart. The final question is, what's your definition of greatness?

Dr. Guy Winch 58:29 Um, my definition of greatness is, uh, setting a goal and reaching it. It's, it, it, it doesn't have to be something... It doesn't have to be Everest.

Lewis Howes 58:43 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 58:44 The local hill, if that's a challenge for you, and you set that goal, and you climb that local hill-

Lewis Howes 58:51 Mm-hmm

Dr. Guy Winch 58:51 ... that's greatness to me.

Lewis Howes 58:53 Yeah.

Dr. Guy Winch 58:53 Um, because it's not one thing. It's not a monolithic thing. It's an everyday thing, I think. I mean, that's how I would prefer to think of it, is greatness is something you should try and achieve every day. And so it's about living your potential, about trying to, uh, about setting goals, and whatever they are, and meeting them.

Lewis Howes 59:12 Mm.

Dr. Guy Winch 59:12 That's greatness to me.

Lewis Howes 59:13 Yeah. Go get the book. It's a small, uh, but powerful book. Get it for a friend who's going through a heartbreak. Read it yourself. Guy Winch, thank you. Appreciate it.

Dr. Guy Winch 59:23 Me too. Thank you.