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Lewis HowesLewis Howes

Jordan Peterson on Responsibility and Meaning with Lewis Howes

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Dr. Jordan B. PetersonguestGreat Minds Lewis Howeshost
Jul 9, 201838mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 0:41

    Why aim matters: suffering without a goal turns into bitterness and cruelty

    1. JP

      If you don't have a goal, you suffer, and then you get cruel, and bitter, and resentful. And then you start to actively try to make the world a worse place.

    2. LH

      Mm.

    3. JP

      And so, so, because you can't suffer pointlessly without becoming bitter, and you can't become bitter without becoming cruel. So you need an aim. The question is, then the question, of course, is what you should aim-

    4. LH

      A better aim

    5. JP

      ... yeah. [laughs]

    6. LH

      A better aim. [laughs]

    7. JP

      Yeah, a better aim. That's for sure. So then the question is, what should your aim be? [upbeat music]

  2. 0:41 – 2:15

    Making ideas implementable: bridging philosophy to daily behavior

    1. LH

      Welcome everyone back to The School of Greatness podcast. We've got the legendary Jordan Peterson in the house. Good to see you, sir.

    2. JP

      Good to see you.

    3. LH

      Very excited about this. You've got a book out called 12 Rules for Life. Make sure you guys check this out. You probably already got it, but if you don't, I'm telling you, go pick it up right now. An Antidote to Chaos. Uh, you've had so much attention over this last couple years, and I've been digging into the research and just been fascinated by everything that you've been up to. And I just love your stance on the vision you have for humanity in terms of how we can all live better lives.

    4. JP

      Mm-hmm.

    5. LH

      And I think you simplify a lot of things in this book, which some things people don't like to simplify.

    6. JP

      Yeah.

    7. LH

      They like to complicate.

    8. JP

      Mm.

    9. LH

      And I think that's what's gotten you a lot of attention, is that you try to really simplify a lot of these things.

    10. JP

      Well, I try to make everything concrete-

    11. LH

      Right

    12. JP

      ... so that it's actually implementable.

    13. LH

      Right.

    14. JP

      I mean, there's a lot of high-level abstractions in the book, because it ranges up into the theological and the philosophical, but it's always grounded in what you can actually do in your life practically.

    15. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    16. JP

      You wanna bridge that gap from the highest abstraction down to the lowest level of behavior so that it becomes implementable. And that's how philosophical concepts take on their meaning, right? 'Cause they have to, they have to have some impact on the way you see the world and the way you act in the world, or they're not fully realized, they're not understood. 'Cause partly what we mean, I would say, when we say that we understand something, it's kind of a sta- strange phrase, to understand something, but it means to be able to embody it in a shift of view and a shift of action, and then you've got it. It's graspable. It's in your hand.

  3. 2:15 – 3:11

    Aims shape perception: how targets organize what you see and do

    1. LH

      Embody something in a shift of view?

    2. JP

      Mm, well, they're the same-

    3. LH

      And a shift of action

    4. JP

      ... well, they're the same thing, eh, because your perceptions are very tightly linked to your actions. Because of course, when you're acting, you're aiming at something. You have to be devoted towards some, some, some aim, some target.

    5. LH

      Right.

    6. JP

      We, we, we play that out in sports all the time.

    7. LH

      Yeah.

    8. JP

      That's why sports are so entertaining for people is because they dramatize the idea of aim, right? And then, and not only of aim, but of the pursuit of excellence in pursuit of that aim. That's the game, and the reason it's a spectacle and the reason that people participate in it is because it dramatizes something absolutely essential about life. And so you wanna take philosophical abstractions and you wanna use them to, to structure your aim, and then your perceptions organize around that aim.

    9. LH

      Mm.

    10. JP

      And then you act it out, and then you've got it. That's, then, then it's, it's become part of your life.

    11. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    12. JP

      It's not just an, it's ju- it's not just a philosophical abstraction that floats free in space.

  4. 3:11 – 4:46

    Why the world is full of conflict: suffering, blindness, and human malevolence

    1. LH

      Why is there so much conflict in, in the world? Is it because there's so many different perceptions that people have?

    2. JP

      Well-

    3. LH

      On what they think should be right, or what they should be-

    4. JP

      Sure

    5. LH

      ... people.

    6. JP

      Well, part of it is, part of it, of course, there's conflict because we have real problems, and so life is actually difficult independent of the, of psychological foolishness, let's say. Independent of the obstacles that we put in our own path, life is d-

    7. LH

      It's already challenging

    8. JP

      ... it's already, it's already fatally challenging, right? Life is the ultimate challenge.

    9. LH

      We will die.

    10. JP

      Yes, yes. And, you know, as well-

    11. LH

      So there is a challenge, yeah.

    12. JP

      Yes. Well, and, uh, the-

    13. LH

      Uncertainty, fear, pain, all those kinds of things

    14. JP

      ... yes, all the thing, all, everything that goes along with suffering is a challenge, and it's, it's, it's the full challenge, because it takes everything you have. And so part of the reason we disagree is because there are complex problems to solve, and then we also disagree because we're willfully blind and because we're more ignorant than we should be, and we're not everything we should be. And we tilt towards malevolence from time to time, and we betray each other and ourselves. And so we take a bad lot in many ways and make it worse. Now, not always, obviously, and we don't have to-

    15. LH

      Right

    16. JP

      ... but that's sort of the baseline that we're working against. I think people are most disappointed in life when they're disappointed in themselves. You know?

    17. LH

      Absolutely.

    18. JP

      They see that they've made things worse than they had to be, even though the baseline can be pret- pretty brutal.

    19. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    20. JP

      So, yeah. And so the book, and all my lectures, I suppose, are, are, are put forward in an attempt to take the high-level philosophical abstractions and to make them into something that's actionable. So-

    21. LH

      And to take the next best action in your life-

    22. JP

      Mm. Mm

    23. LH

      ... to improve your life.

    24. JP

      Mm.

    25. LH

      So we don't have to suffer as much.

  5. 4:46 – 7:59

    Responsibility as a source of meaning: clear conscience over happiness

    1. JP

      Mm-hmm. Well, and hopefully also so that people around you don't have to either. So one of the things-

    2. LH

      Yeah

    3. JP

      ... I've been talking to my audiences about is the relationship between responsibility and meaning-

    4. LH

      Mm

    5. JP

      ... which is the, um, uh, what would you say? It's a, it's a constant refrain in the book.

    6. LH

      Mm.

    7. JP

      It's one of its underlying, um, um, messages, let's say, or themes is a better way of thinking about it. Um, you know, i- if you start with the presumption that there's a baseline of suffering in life, and that that can be, uh, exaggerated by, as a consequence of human failing, as a consequence of malevolence, and betrayal, and self-betrayal, and deceit, and all those things that we do to each other and ourselves that we know that aren't good, that amplifies the suffering. That's sort of the baseline against which you have to work. And, and, and it's contemplation of that, often, that makes people hopeless, and depressed, and anxious, and overwhelmed, and all of that.

    8. LH

      Yeah.

    9. JP

      And, and, and they have the reasons. But you need something to put up against that, and what you put up against that is meaning. Meaning is actually the instinct that helps you guide yourself through that catastrophe, and most of that meaning is to be found in the adoption of responsibility. So if you think, for example, if you think about the people that you admire.

    10. LH

      Mm.

    11. JP

      Well, you think about when you have a clear conscience first.

    12. LH

      Yeah.

    13. JP

      'Cause that's a good thing to aim at, which is something different than happiness, right?

    14. LH

      A clear conscience is different than happiness.

    15. JP

      Yeah, it's better.

    16. LH

      Yeah.

    17. JP

      That's better.

    18. LH

      You're not out here guilting yourself. You're not feeling bad about yourself.

    19. JP

      That's right.

    20. LH

      Yeah.

    21. JP

      You feel that you've justified-

    22. LH

      You're clean

    23. JP

      ... you've justified your existence.

    24. LH

      Yeah.

    25. JP

      Right, and so you're not waking up at 3:00 in the morning in a cold sweat thinking about all the terrible things that you've involved yourself in.

    26. LH

      Mm.

    27. JP

      You know?

    28. LH

      What you said to someone that you shouldn't have said-

    29. JP

      Mm-hmm

    30. LH

      ... or how you acted or lied or deceived.

  6. 7:59 – 11:05

    Admiration and role models: what sports reveal about ethics and meaning

    1. JP

      You know, you wake up at 3:00 in the morning and you know. And so, and then you think of the people that you... So you admire yourself, or perhaps you can at least live with yourself, when you're taking responsibility at least for yourself, and so that settles your conscience. But then if you look at the people that you spontaneously admire, and so the act of spontaneously admiring someone is the manifestation of the instinct for meaning, right? So, and this is partly why people are so enamored of sports-

    2. LH

      Mm-hmm

    3. JP

      ... figures.

    4. LH

      Yeah.

    5. JP

      Because the sports figures are playing out the drama of attaining the goal, of attaining a certain kind of, let's say, psychological and physical perfection in pursuit of the goal. That's the drama. And to spontaneously admire that is to have that instinct for meaning latch onto something that can be used as a model, and then that model should be transcribed into something that's applicable in life. You know, when you really like to see, in an athletic performance, you really like to see someone who's extremely disciplined and, and, and in shape do something physically remarkable. But, and, and to stretch themselves even beyond their previous exploits, because you really like to see a brilliant move-

    6. LH

      Yes

    7. JP

      ... in a, in an athletic match. But you also s- like to see that person ensconced in a broader moral framework, so that not only are they trying to win and disciplining themselves in pursuit of that victory, and then stretching themselves so they're continually getting better, but they're doing it in a way that helps develop their whole team-

    8. LH

      Mm

    9. JP

      ... and that's good for the sport in general and that reflects well on-

    10. LH

      Right

    11. JP

      ... the broader culture.

    12. LH

      They're a great leader on their team.

    13. JP

      Yeah.

    14. LH

      They're positive. They're good, uh, sportsmen against the competitors.

    15. JP

      Yeah.

    16. LH

      They're not negative towards the other people. They're lifting them up, too.

    17. JP

      Yeah.

    18. LH

      Like, the ultimate-

    19. JP

      That's right, so that they-

    20. LH

      ... human.

    21. JP

      That's right, so that they can, they can work for their own improvement in a way that simultaneously works for the improvement of their team and that, and, and for the sport. And-

    22. LH

      Well-

    23. JP

      And then to the degree that that spills over into the broader culture, so much the better.

    24. LH

      Right.

    25. JP

      So that's all being dramatized in a, in an, in ath- athletic event, and it's really, it's not philosophical. It's concrete, right? It's dramatized in the world, and that's what the games represent. And so while, and it's partly because, well, in some sense, life is a game.

    26. LH

      It is.

    27. JP

      It is in that you're always... The, the analogy is that in, in life, like in sports, you're, you're, you're setting forth an aim and then arranging your perceptions and your actions in pursuit of that aim. And that you also generally do it while cooperating and competing with other people.

    28. LH

      Right.

    29. JP

      So that's also the game-like element as well.

    30. LH

      Yeah.

  7. 11:05 – 12:54

    From vague wanting to embodied action: using models and imitation

    1. LH

      And so taking it back to responsibility and meaning-

    2. JP

      Mm

    3. LH

      ... when we're watching sports or someone do this act, what does this do for us with, in terms of responsibility and meaning?

    4. JP

      Well, it, it, it, it helps us figure out what we can imitate.

    5. LH

      Gives us a model.

    6. JP

      Right. Yes, it's a model. Right.

    7. LH

      Here's a model of something that I respect.

    8. JP

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Well, even what philosophy is, or even theology for that matter, is an abstract model. Like, it's laid out in words. Now, the problem often is, is it becomes so abstract that people don't know how to bring it back down to-

    9. LH

      To embodiment

    10. JP

      ... to embodiment.

    11. LH

      Yeah.

    12. JP

      Yes. Whereas something like, like the drama of a sports event is sort of midway between philosophy and action, right?

    13. LH

      Mm.

    14. JP

      And so it's, it's not entirely abstracted because it's not only coded in words. It's acted out.

    15. LH

      It's visual.

    16. JP

      Mm.

    17. LH

      You can see an example of what just happened.

    18. JP

      Mm-hmm.

    19. LH

      And you can try to reverse engineer how they did that.

    20. JP

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Well, yes, exactly. Well, at le- at least you, the fact that you admire the person means that you might start to try to act like them.

    21. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    22. JP

      Now, it's not easy. And maybe that would mean, maybe that would mean that you start to discipline yourself with regards to a particular sport, but it might also be that you start to mimic or are at least affected in some way by their, their sportsman- Sportsman-like behavior, right?

    23. LH

      Yeah.

    24. JP

      Which is the ground of a certain kind of ethic. Because if you can play well with others, which is sort of the hallmark of a good sport, then that actually means that you're a reasonably sophisticated and civilized person. It's really important to learn to play well with others. There isn't-

    25. LH

      Yeah

    26. JP

      ... that's the ground of ethics.

    27. LH

      And if you can do it there in that setting, then hopefully you could translate it into a life setting.

    28. JP

      Well, well, right. That's exactly right. That's what you-

    29. LH

      That's the goal

    30. JP

      ... well, that's what you hope for.

  8. 12:54 – 14:53

    Aimlessness and its cascade: pointless suffering → bitterness → making things worse

    1. JP

      ... with, with, with, with athletics. So, um, uh, so I've been talking to my audiences a lot about that, about the... And well, and there's more to it too, because if the background of life is, is there's a, there's an ineradicable component of suffering, and that's complicated by, let's say, malevolence and the proclivity of people to betray themselves and others, which, which complicates it and makes it worse, then the, if you don't have a noble aim and, and, and if that isn't imbuing your life with sustainable meaning, then you fall prey to all the catastrophe, the pain, and the anxiety, and the anger that that suffering generates, and that makes you bitter.

    2. LH

      Because what I'm hearing you say is that, and correct me if I'm wrong, we must have an aim in our life no matter what stage of life we're in.

    3. JP

      Mm-hmm.

    4. LH

      And if we don't have some type of aim, even if for a few months of an aim of going somewhere, a direction-

    5. JP

      Mm-hmm

    6. LH

      ... we're gonna, the suffering's gonna be even more suffering.

    7. JP

      Mm. Pointless.

    8. LH

      Because, because we're already gonna face the greatest challenges in life.

    9. JP

      That's right. You're stuck with it.

    10. LH

      We're already struggling.

    11. JP

      That's right. There's no way out of it.

    12. LH

      Adversity is coming no matter what.

    13. JP

      That's right.

    14. LH

      If we have big goals or-

    15. JP

      Mm

    16. LH

      ... small little goal or whatever it may be.

    17. JP

      Mm.

    18. LH

      But it's gonna be less suffering if we-

    19. JP

      Mm

    20. LH

      ... have an aim.

    21. JP

      Yeah. Well, and, and n- not only... The, it's worse than that even, because-

    22. LH

      [laughs]

    23. JP

      ... the suffering is pain.

    24. LH

      There's zero meaning.

    25. JP

      W- well, the suffering is pain, and the suffering is anxiety and uncertainty, and the suffering is hopelessness, but the consequence of all that is that you get bitter.

    26. LH

      Mm.

    27. JP

      And when you get bitter, you get mean, and you get cruel, and you start to hurt yourself and other people. So it's not only that if you don't have a goal, you suffer, it's that you, if you don't have a goal, you suffer, and then you get cruel and bitter and resentful, and then you start to actively try to make the world a worse place.

    28. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    29. JP

      And so, so, because you can't suffer pointlessly without becoming bitter, and you can't become bitter without becoming cruel. So you need an aim. The question is, then the question, of course, is what you should aim-

    30. LH

      A better aim.

  9. 14:53 – 16:02

    Self Authoring overview: mapping your life to know where you are and where you’re going

    1. JP

      Yeah, a better aim. That's for sure. So then the question is, what should your aim be? Now, we have a program.

    2. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JP

      It's one of the things I wanted to talk to you about today.

    4. LH

      Yeah.

    5. JP

      I, I have this website called selfauthoring.com, and that program helps people write about their life. And so there's a past authoring program. To, to, to establish your aim, you have to know where you are. It's like you're trying to orient yourself on a map. You can't orient yourself on a map unless you know where you are.

    6. LH

      Yeah.

    7. JP

      You also have to know where you're going, right? So those are the two relevant things. The past authoring program helps people write about their lives, so it's a guided autobiography. We ask people to break their life up into six epochs, six sections, and then to write about the emotionally important events in those s- in those epochs, and to detail out why, why the positive things happened and why more of that could conceivably happen in the future, and to detail out why the negative things happened, and to try to understand why, with an aim to not replicating them in the future. Because the purpose of memory isn't to remember the past. The purpose of memory is so that you, you figure out what went wrong when something went wrong so you don't duplicate it in the future.

    8. LH

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

  10. 16:02 – 17:27

    When the past won’t let go: emotional pain, recurring memories, and ‘fix it’ anxiety

    1. JP

      So that's the purpose of memory. And the past authoring program can help people catch up. And you know you have to catch up if you have memories that are older than about a year and a half that still cause you emotional pain when you think about them.

    2. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JP

      Or if you dwell on them, they come spontaneously back to mind. Means you haven't, it means that there's part of your life that you haven't mapped out properly, and it still has emotional valence that's gripping you.

    4. LH

      And you're still holding onto that story.

    5. JP

      Or it's still holding onto you.

    6. LH

      Oh, interesting.

    7. JP

      Right, right.

    8. LH

      You haven't let it go.

    9. JP

      Yeah, yeah. Well, you haven't been able to navigate your way through it. You, there's a pitfall there that you fell in, and you don't know how to avoid similar pitfalls in the future, and that's why your brain-

    10. LH

      So you repeat it

    11. JP

      ... won't let it go.

    12. LH

      Oh.

    13. JP

      'Cause it's saying, that's what the anxiety systems do. It's like, "This happened to you. It wasn't good. This happened to you. It wasn't good. This happened to you. It wasn't good. Fix it, fix it, fix it, fix it. That will never go away unless you fix it."

    14. LH

      How do you fix it?

    15. JP

      Well, you have to figure out why it happened, right? That's the first thing is, like, how did you, how was it that that situation arose to pull you down?

    16. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JP

      And that's not simple. That's why, well, that's why we have the writing program.

    18. LH

      Right.

    19. JP

      'Cause it's complicated to think it through. But you, but if you face it, and you, and you meditate on it, let's say, and, so and you do this voluntarily, there's a h- pretty high probability that you'll be able to decrease the probability that will be repeated in the future. So, and-

    20. LH

      And this-

    21. JP

      [clears throat]

    22. LH

      Go ahead. I don't wanna cut you off.

    23. JP

      Oh, well, well, we, the, the second part of the program helps people do an analysis of their virtues and their faults.

    24. LH

      Mm-hmm.

  11. 17:27 – 19:27

    Future Authoring: treating yourself as someone you’re responsible for helping

    1. JP

      Same sort of idea. What's good about you that you could capitalize on? What's weak about you that you need to fix so that it doesn't bring you down, right? And that's the present authoring. But the future authoring program is probably most relevant to-

    2. LH

      Mm

    3. JP

      ... you and your listeners, because you're interested in helping people establish aims. And so we already talked about the fact that you need an aim in life, or, or that's where you derive your meaning. And without that, things go to hell, and, and as literally as that can be taken. And so, but it's not easy t- to ask people to say... Well, it's easy to ask them, "What do you want in your life?" It's a very hard question to answer, 'cause it's too vague-

    4. LH

      Right, right, right, right

    5. JP

      ... and grand, eh? So we help, in the future authoring program, we help people break that down. And so, okay, so here, here's the situation. So you put yourself in the right frame of mind. So what's the right frame of mind? It's like rule two in this book. Treat yourself like you're someone responsible for helping. You're someone that you are responsible for helping. So what that means is you have to start from the presupposition that despite all your flaws and insufficiencies, that it's worth having you around, and that it would be okay if things were better for you. So you need to take care of yourself, like you're taking care of someone you care for. So there's a bit of a detachment in that. And then the next thing is, okay, so now look three to five years down the road.

    6. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JP

      Okay? You get to have what you need and want, assuming you're being reasonable-

    8. LH

      Mm-hmm

    9. JP

      ... and that you actually want it, which means you're willing to make the sacrifices that would, that would make it possible.

    10. LH

      What do you mean by reasonable?

    11. JP

      Well, that- that's-

    12. LH

      [laughs]

    13. JP

      ... that's the next thing. Well, within your grasp, that would be something, you know-

    14. LH

      What if something is out of your grasp but you still push hard enough to potentially get it?

    15. JP

      Well, then you need, then you need an incremental plan.

    16. LH

      Got it. Yeah, yeah, of course.

    17. JP

      Right? You need to break that goal down into steps that you-

    18. LH

      Not some crazy goal within a year that's like-

    19. JP

      Yeah

    20. LH

      ... you haven't even done the work to master a skill yet. Yeah, I got it.

    21. JP

      Yeah. Well, that's it. And you can have a high-end goal-

    22. LH

      Right

    23. JP

      ... and more power to you if you do.

    24. LH

      But the timeframe, yeah.

    25. JP

      But you need it. Well, you need a pathway to it.

    26. LH

      Yeah, absolutely.

    27. JP

      You know, if you're, if it's 10 stories up above you, you need a staircase to get there, right?

    28. LH

      Right.

    29. JP

      And so you have to build the staircase, too.

    30. LH

      Right. Right.

  12. 19:27 – 21:45

    Defining a life vision across domains—and how aiming changes what you notice

    1. JP

      And so in the Future Authoring program, so you're asked, first of all, okay, here's, you get to have what you want and need. That's the proposition. But you have to aim at it. You have to define it and aim at it. So he- so then the first thing is, okay, uh, if you could put your family together the way you wanted it to be-

    2. LH

      Mm-hmm

    3. JP

      ... what would that look like? And so that might be your siblings and your parents, but that also might be, you know, your wife or your husband and your kids, assuming that you're at that point in your life. If you could have the family you wanted, what would that look like? Right? Okay. Career, same thing. You get to have the career or the job that, that is within your grasp, necessary, and, and suitable for, for you, if you were-

    4. LH

      Mm-hmm

    5. JP

      ... taking care of yourself. How are you gonna educate yourself? 'Cause you're not as smart as you should be. There's a lot more things you need to know, so you gotta keep learning and moving forward.

    6. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JP

      So you need to plan for that. How are you gonna take care of yourself mentally and physically? Right? So, um, how are you going to avoid the, the, the catastrophic temptations, for example, of drugs and alcohol? Because that pulls a lot of people down. You need a plan for that. You gonna be a social drinker? How much are you gonna drink? How much is too much? What about your drug use?

    8. LH

      Mm.

    9. JP

      You gotta regulate that so it isn't a pitfall. How are you gonna use your time meaningful and productively outside of work? 'Cause you need a plan for that. So that's, um, and there's one other that, that I'm, that sticks in my mind at the moment.

    10. LH

      There's six of them you said, right?

    11. JP

      Yeah, I think there's seven initial questions, and I don't, I don't remember the last one. Um, oh, intimate relationship, of course.

    12. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    13. JP

      So you have, you, do you want a, do you want a long-term, stable, intimate relationship? And if you do, then how would you like that to lay itself out? You gotta have a vision for that, because if you don't have a vision-

    14. LH

      Right

    15. JP

      ... you're not gonna aim at it.

    16. LH

      Absolutely.

    17. JP

      And if you don't aim at it, then you won't even see the opportunities when they arise. That's the thing that's so cool. I wrote about this in chapter 10, which is Be Precise in Your Speech. It's a chapter about the fact that aims structure your perceptions. So for example, once you aim at something, your brain, literally, the perceptual structures in your brain, in your visual cortex, reorient themselves to calculate a pathway to the aim. And then what they show you in the world is obstacles to that path and-

    18. LH

      Mm-hmm

    19. JP

      ... and open pathways to the path. That's actually how the world reveals itself. Just like, just like when you're driving in a car and you have a map, and you, or you aim at a particular place, then all the things that are-

    20. LH

      Right

    21. JP

      ... related to that place show up in the world. It's exactly the same thing.

    22. LH

      Yeah.

  13. 21:45 – 23:41

    Bad plans beat no plan: avoiding ‘no man’s land’ through iterative aiming

    1. JP

      'Cause you are traveling through time and space, right? And you need a map. And so, so after you answer these seven questions, and you're encouraged to do it badly-

    2. LH

      Mm-hmm

    3. JP

      ... because you don't have to get perfectionistic.

    4. LH

      Just complete it, yeah.

    5. JP

      Just complete it, right.

    6. LH

      [laughs]

    7. JP

      Because a bad plan is better than no plan. Gives you something to improve.

    8. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JP

      So even if your a- aim is vague, and even if it's off target, if you start aiming and you see you're off target, then you can shift and you can make it more precise.

    10. LH

      You start to recognize what you don't want in that plan.

    11. JP

      Yes, exactly. Exactly.

    12. LH

      Say, "Oh, I thought I wanted this, but I don't."

    13. JP

      Exactly.

    14. LH

      "So let me renavigate-

    15. JP

      Right

    16. LH

      ... and figure out what I do want."

    17. JP

      Exactly.

    18. LH

      And you might have to try a bunch of things.

    19. JP

      Yeah. Well, you will have to.

    20. LH

      Right.

    21. JP

      You can be, that's why you shouldn't get perfectionistic about it.

    22. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    23. JP

      You will absolutely be wrong, but you won't be as wrong as you would've been if you were aimless.

    24. LH

      Right.

    25. JP

      Right? So it's a, so it, there's a bit of humility.

    26. LH

      No man's land-

    27. JP

      No man's land is not good

    28. LH

      ... is worse than going somewhere.

    29. JP

      No man's room is a b- w- worse than a bad path.

    30. LH

      Yeah.

  14. 23:41 – 27:08

    Motivation needs both a destination and an ‘avoidance’ vision: writing your personal hell

    1. JP

      Write it out. Okay, so then that's the first part. The second part of the exercise, so now you've got your thing to aim at. You think, "Well, I'm motivated, 'cause I got my thing to, thing to aim at."

    2. LH

      Yeah.

    3. JP

      It's like, you're not as motivated as you could be, 'cause you don't yet have your thing to run away from. 'Cause if you really wanna be motivated, you wanna be going somewhere, and you wanna be not going somewhere else.

    4. LH

      Which typically is a pain, right?

    5. JP

      Mm-hmm. Yes, a pain or anxiety.

    6. LH

      Or a suffering or

    7. JP

      Yeah. Some, some domain of suffering and guilt, let's say.

    8. LH

      Yeah. I don't wanna feel this anymore.

    9. JP

      Yes, exactly. Exactly.

    10. LH

      Yeah.

    11. JP

      So, so the other thing we ask people is, okay, now take stock of your weaknesses and imagine that you let them multiply, you got hopeless-

    12. LH

      Mm-hmm

    13. JP

      ... and you augered in and things were as bad for you as they could be in three to five years.

    14. LH

      What are some examples of weaknesses that people might have?

    15. JP

      They lie They procrastinate.

    16. LH

      Yeah.

    17. JP

      They avoid. They're grandiose. They're narcissistic. They're undisciplined. Uh, they're nihilistic. They're aimless. All of those things.

    18. LH

      Got it, yeah.

    19. JP

      Right? Um, they-

    20. LH

      Victim mentality, yeah

    21. JP

      ... victim mentality. They take the sh- they take the, the, the quick way out.

    22. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    23. JP

      They pursue impulsive pleasures. They sacrifice meaning for expediency. They don't take care of their basic responsibilities. They fight stupidly with their parents. They don't, they don't negotiate properly with their spouse. They're bitter at work because they haven't said what they have to say.

    24. LH

      Mm.

    25. JP

      They haven't thought through what they're doing tomorrow. They drink too much. They smoke too much. They take too many drugs. They don't regulate their, their-

    26. LH

      Don't work out, yeah.

    27. JP

      Yeah.

    28. LH

      [clears throat]

    29. JP

      So there's like-

    30. LH

      Got it. So there's some weaknesses

  15. 27:08 – 30:55

    Sacrifice and structured difficulty: choosing pain now over deeper pain later

    1. LH

      'Cause it's in deep... If you don't, uh, experience the pain now or the difficulty now-

    2. JP

      Mm

    3. LH

      ... you're gonna have a deeper pain later.

    4. JP

      Yeah, yeah, that's life, man.

    5. LH

      Much deeper pain later.

    6. JP

      Yeah, yeah.

    7. LH

      And that's why I think that you mentioned at one point is, like, putting ourselves in, um, structured pain, like, structured sense of feeling pain throughout the day.

    8. JP

      Mm-hmm.

    9. LH

      Whether it be the tough conversation.

    10. JP

      Mm-hmm.

    11. LH

      I don't wanna do that. It's painful, but I'm going to because I know afterwards-

    12. JP

      Mm

    13. LH

      ... it's gonna probably feel better.

    14. JP

      Mm.

    15. LH

      There'll be some clarity.

    16. JP

      It's a bit of a sacrifice, right?

    17. LH

      Yeah. As oppo- yeah.

    18. JP

      So you sacrifice stability in the present for a gain in the future. That's the big discovery of human beings.

    19. LH

      And, and were you a big-

    20. JP

      Is that sacrifice works.

    21. LH

      Exactly. And were you a big athlete growing up?

    22. JP

      No.

    23. LH

      No? But as a-

    24. JP

      No, well, I was a lo- a small kid, and I-

    25. LH

      Right, right, yeah

    26. JP

      ... skipped a grade. Although I skied, and I went cross-country skiing and that.

    27. LH

      Skied.

    28. JP

      But it's individual sports things-

    29. LH

      Yeah

    30. JP

      ... mostly with my dad.

  16. 30:55 – 34:55

    Rebuilding the map into goals and reasons: hierarchy, calibration, and a ‘noble’ justification

    1. JP

      Yes, yes. And so as you plan, you get better at planning, which is the crucial thing. So, so then we say to people, "Take your positive vision and make it into eight..." Stateable goals, right? So, and then rank them in a hierarchy because you need to know what-

    2. LH

      Like a top goal-

    3. JP

      Then, yeah, and-

    4. LH

      ... and incremental goals.

    5. JP

      Yeah, and, and, and that, well, that's the other thing, is break the goals into incremental goals so that you have a reasonable probability of succeeding. So, 'cause what you wanna do, this is also what you wanna do with a kid. You don't tell your kid, "Here's an impossible thing. Why don't you go out and fail?" You say, "Here's something worth going after. Here's a step you could take that would push you beyond where you are, but that you also have a reasonably high probability of succeeding at."

    6. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JP

      Right? They'd call that the-

    8. LH

      Within a timeframe. Yeah.

    9. JP

      Within some timeframe. That's the other thing. You have to parameterize it with regards to timeframe, that's right. And that puts you in the zone of proximal development, and that's a, that's a concept that was generated by a guy named Vygotsky. He was a Russian developmental psychologist, and a smart one. It's where the idea of the zone comes from-

    10. LH

      Mm

    11. JP

      ... to be in the zone.

    12. LH

      Yeah.

    13. JP

      And when you're in the zone, you're expanding your skills at, in a manner that's intrinsically rewarding because you're succeeding. And so you wanna set, if you're good to yourself, you think, "Okay, I need to set a goal, but I need to set a goal that someone as stupid and useless as me could probably attain if they put some effort into it."

    14. LH

      Right.

    15. JP

      And then you got, then you've got it perfectly, because it's not so high that it's grandiose or impossible, that you fail necessarily and then justify your bitterness. It's like, "Well, I couldn't do..."

    16. LH

      [laughs]

    17. JP

      Well, that, 'cause that happens to people.

    18. LH

      Happens all the time.

    19. JP

      Yeah.

    20. LH

      See this all the time.

    21. JP

      You know, it's like, it's, yes, exactly. "Well, I set a goal and I didn't attain it, so I'm not gonna set any more goals."

    22. LH

      Right.

    23. JP

      It's like, no, you set a goal that was inappropriate.

    24. LH

      For the timeframe.

    25. JP

      Mm-hmm.

    26. LH

      Yeah.

    27. JP

      That's right. You didn't calibrate it properly.

    28. LH

      Yeah.

    29. JP

      And, and you're playing a trick on yourself because you wanted to fail so that you could justify not having to try. That's why.

    30. LH

      And being a victim.

  17. 34:55 – 38:10

    Existential doubt vs. noble purpose: confronting suffering without becoming bitter

    1. LH

      Because I think the question comes back to, after, you know, someone could go down the rabbit hole and say, "Why? Why am I doing this?"

    2. JP

      Yep.

    3. LH

      "And why is this, you know, meaningful for me?" And I think a lot of people go back to, "Well, why am I here in the first place?"

    4. JP

      Yes, yes.

    5. LH

      Why am I here?

    6. JP

      Mm-hmm.

    7. LH

      What is the meaning of my life?

    8. JP

      Mm-hmm.

    9. LH

      And is this real?

    10. JP

      Mm-hmm.

    11. LH

      Or is this just some dream world?

    12. JP

      Well, and then, and that, then people do go back to that.

    13. LH

      And then they get stuck on that.

    14. JP

      Yeah. What, but-

    15. LH

      None of this even matters because why am I even here?

    16. JP

      Well, the, the thing is, is that that's a self-defeating set of propositions-

    17. LH

      Yeah

    18. JP

      ... in some sense.

    19. LH

      Right.

    20. JP

      Because the consequence of being stuck there-

    21. LH

      There's no way out of it. [laughs]

    22. JP

      The reason you're stuck there to begin with is because you're not very happy about the fact that life is intrinsically tied up with suffering.

    23. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    24. JP

      'Cause you wouldn't be asking that question to begin with. Okay, so if you let that pull you in and take you down, all it does is make the suffering worse.

    25. LH

      Absolutely.

    26. JP

      It's not helpful. And then, and then the cascade that we talked about happens. You suffer stupidly and pointlessly.

    27. LH

      You hurt people.

    28. JP

      You get bitter, you get cruel.

    29. LH

      Yeah.

    30. JP

      You make everything worse. It's like, that's your answer, is it? You're gonna make everything worse. It's bad enough. You're gonna make it worse.

Episode duration: 38:30

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