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90 min read · 18,358 words- 0:00 – 3:44
A Divorce Lawyer's Candid Vantage Point
- JSJames Sexton
Like when your partner says, um, you know, "I wanna feel more fulfilled," what does that mean? Like do, do you mean you wanna have a date night once a week, or do you mean you wanna surf more often? 'Cause I don't know if I should take you out to dinner or drive you to the beach.
- LHLewis Howes
Right. [laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
Like what, what does that mean?
- LHLewis Howes
Be specific, yeah, yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Specifically. I think people need to know how to talk to each other. And in fact, why not have a conversation about how you have conversations?
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
Like why not talk about, listen, when there's a problem in the marriage, how are we gonna talk to each other about it? [upbeat music]
- LHLewis Howes
Welcome back, everyone, to The School of Greatness podcast. We have Jim Sexton in the house. Good to see you, man.
- JSJames Sexton
It's good to see you, Lewis. Thanks for having me.
- LHLewis Howes
Excited about this. You've got a book called If You're In My Office It's Already Too Late: A Divorce Lawyer's Guide to Staying Together. You've been doing divor- divorce law work for two decades, right?
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah, about that. Little less than that, right.
- LHLewis Howes
Almost two decades-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- LHLewis Howes
... working with couples who have gone through every challenge under the sun, right?
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
Who have been through it all.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
Uh, from sleeping with the nanny to-
- JSJames Sexton
[laughs]
- LHLewis Howes
... financial cau- issues-
- JSJames Sexton
Yep
- LHLewis Howes
... to what you said, carpooling. Who's, who's doing what carpooling on what days to little stuff to big stuff and everything in between.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
You've seen it.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
And you're not a trained therapist-
- JSJames Sexton
Nope
- LHLewis Howes
... but you've probably had, uh, years of work in your experience being a therapist for a lot of people-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- LHLewis Howes
... I'm assuming, right?
- 3:44 – 4:50
Why Couples Rarely Turn Back by the Time They Reach a Lawyer
- LHLewis Howes
And have there been any clients that you've worked with that were going to get a divorce and then they decided not to after working with you, and then, and they came back together for whatever reason?
- JSJames Sexton
Mm-hmm.
- LHLewis Howes
And if so, what was that reason?
- JSJames Sexton
It happens pretty rarely. And, and that's why I actually called the book If You're In My Office It's Already Too Late.
- LHLewis Howes
Maybe 1% of people? Less.
- JSJames Sexton
I would say even less.
- LHLewis Howes
Wow.
- JSJames Sexton
I would say even less. I would say in a 20-year career, it's happened maybe three times, where someone, by the time they were in my office, it's so far along and the wound has so festered that they're just-
- LHLewis Howes
It's hard to repair
- JSJames Sexton
... it's hard to turn it around. I mean, look, that, that's the truth. You know, when you look at people, it's a whole lot easier to s- to, to maintain your weight than to get real fat and try to lose it all, right? So it's the same thing with marriages, you know? There's this, no single raindrop's responsible for the flood, you know?
- LHLewis Howes
Right, right, right.
- JSJames Sexton
There's these little-
- LHLewis Howes
They all add up
- JSJames Sexton
... arguments-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... these little issues that people have, and they just build and build and build and build to the point where once that dam breaks, by the time you're in my office, it's done.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
It's, it's, a- and it's rare that people can come back from that.
- 4:50 – 9:22
Marriage as a Technology and Its Failure Rate
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah. You were talking about before we started that marriage is a technology.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
Now, what does that mean? What is the technology of marriage?
- JSJames Sexton
Well, I mean, I, I think anything that's designed to solve a problem is a technology, right? So I mean, this mug is, is, is a technology, you know? The, the, and, and what is the problem to which this technology is a solution? Well, it's the problem of I can't hold hot tea in my hand.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
It's a problem of I, I don't wanna use, and, and kudos to you, uh, uh, for using non-disposable ones.
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
Um, uh, that zero waste, uh-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, yeah. [laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
... role that you listen to. Um, and the truth is is that it, it, it's designed to solve a problem.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
So the, the next question is who has that problem? Well, you know, anyone who wants to drink a beverage has that problem, you know? And the next question, and I think the most important question, is what problems does it unintentionally create, okay? So every technology is a Faustian bargain in the sense that it solves a problem-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm
- JSJames Sexton
... and it creates a problem or creates a-
- LHLewis Howes
Now you gotta clean it. You gotta use water to wash it.
- JSJames Sexton
Exactly. You have to-
- LHLewis Howes
You gotta store it. You-
- JSJames Sexton
Now you have to find stylish ones. I mean, you went, you know, classic plain.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah. [laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
But you gotta find ones with witty sayings on them.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
And it can break, and now my favorite mug was broken, and how am I gonna replace it? I mean, again, some of these problems are silly little problems in exchange for really great benefits, but Most people never ask themselves the question, the technology of marriage, which is a man-made technology-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm
- JSJames Sexton
... a human-made technology. We got together and said, "Hey, let's create this legal contract."
- LHLewis Howes
Governed by a state, right?
- JSJames Sexton
Right, governed by the state. Let's come up with something that let's turn a lover into a relative.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
You know, let's find a way to turn this into a legally binding contract. And-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm
- JSJames Sexton
... people just go and sign up for this technology, and they spend more time thinking about what cake they should serve at the ceremony than thinking about, what did I just sign on for, and why did I sign on for it, and what are some problems it might create for me in exchange for the things that it solves for me? And by the way, will it even solve the problem that I'm trying to have it solve? And one of the things I talk about in the book is, you know, if you got married to solve the problem of being alone-
- 9:22 – 11:46
Self-Actualization and the One-Car-for-Life Analogy
- JSJames Sexton
That's, that's a trend that's definitely starting to change. So, so I think-
- LHLewis Howes
It's like leave him, divorce him, or whatever, you know the trend.
- JSJames Sexton
Right. Well, I think as self-actualization, you know, became more of a thing and, and, and, and after the 1970s, you know, people started thinking about, like, you know, themselves and their happiness-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... it wasn't just about the unit anymore. It was about, you know, finding yourself. Then, yeah, it became more acceptable to be self-interested. I'm not gonna say selfish because not all self-interested behavior-
- LHLewis Howes
Right, right
- JSJames Sexton
... is selfish.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
But it became more acceptable to say, "I'm not happy. You know, I married this person when I was 20."
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
"And now I'm 40, and shockingly, I'm not the same person at 40 that I was when I was 20, and now I'm a different person, and it's no longer a good fit." You know?
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
I mean, I, the, the analogy I tell people is, is if I said to you right now, "You can have any car you want," what car would you have?
- LHLewis Howes
Well, I just got a Tesla.
- JSJames Sexton
I have a Tesla, too.
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah. We'll be friends.
- LHLewis Howes
I actually don't care about cars at all.
- JSJames Sexton
I'm not a big car guy either.
- LHLewis Howes
But I got one for tax reasons actually.
- JSJames Sexton
Okay, cool.
- LHLewis Howes
And, uh, I had a 1991, I still have a 1991 Cadillac Eldorado.
- JSJames Sexton
Okay.
- LHLewis Howes
That had like 16,000 miles on it.
- JSJames Sexton
Okay.
- LHLewis Howes
I just, I Uber everywhere.
- JSJames Sexton
It's a, it's a great car.
- LHLewis Howes
I don't really use it.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
Um, but I-
- 11:46 – 18:15
What Couples Should Learn Before Marrying
- LHLewis Howes
What training or information do you think, do you wish every couple would go through before signing up for the technology of marriage?
- JSJames Sexton
That's a great question. I, I think- You know, if you buy a, a house, you get a lead paint disclosure. Mm-hmm. You get a HUD disclosure that talks about the loan. You get all kinds of disclosures, right? You sign a will, there's all these pages that explain to you in great detail, you know, what's happening when you sign that will. You get married, you don't even get a pamphlet. [laughs] Yeah. You don't even get, like, a one-page brochure that says, "By the way- This is what it is, yeah ... this is the most legally significant thing other than dying that you will ever do legally, and you don't get any information about what just happened. So the first thing I would say is I think everybody who's gonna get married should have an hour consultation with a divorce lawyer, absolutely. So they should go into your office before- Yes, but for a different reason ... for a different reason. Yes, prophylactically. Before, yes, yes. They should come in proactively and learn about what's about to happen legally. What's about to happen to my rights? You know, what's about to, to, to change in terms of how I own property, the financial obligations I'll have to this person. I would also say one of the best things they could do is talk to someone candidly who's been married for an extended period of time. You know, I, that's not something we do. We're not encouraged- Mm-hmm ... to be honest about our relationships. We're not. I mean, one of the things you talk about in Masking about- Mask of Masculinity that I loved is about, uh, particularly for men, but I think it's true for women, too, we, we don't share candidly what's really going on in our lives. Mm-hmm. We're, we're, we're in a very curated society where you put up on social media the best picture- Mm-hmm ... and the best vacation photos and the best of everything we're doing, and we don't share with each other the challenges. We don't share with each other even, even really relevant information. Mm-hmm. Like, when I meet a couple who's been together for 20 years, I, you know, I wanna know, I mean, I love the story of how did you meet and, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. [laughs] How many times a week do you have sex? Mm-hmm. Who start, who initiates it? Do you ask? Does she ask? Do you always do the same stuff 'cause you've been together for 20 years and you know what each other like? Or, like, do you try, like, do you, like, call an audible every once in a while and just do some wacky thing? Yeah. Like, what is it, like, what are, what is it really like the day-to-day of your relationship? And so many people, I mean, you've been in relationships, I've been in relationships, so many people just don't talk honestly. Even when I'm with my guy friends, you know, do we really talk- Yeah ... honestly- Yeah ... about the day-to-day of our relationships, the way we talk to the women in our lives, like, the nickname they have for us or the nickname we have for them? Again, it's private to some degree information, but if we could share that stuff a little more, we'd have a, a lot more accurate of a perception of where our relationship stands in the scheme of things- Mm-hmm ... and how we're doing. You know, because I, I really think there's this perception that people have of, you know, uh, oh, well, we're only having sex this many times a week, and it's like, well, okay, is that a lot? Is that too little? Like, you have nothing to compare it to. Right, right, right. You know, so in marriage, there's no way to know if you're doing well at it. Mm. Because you can't say, "Well, you know, we have fights every now and then." Well, okay, people have fights every now and then, but if you have a fight every week, that might be a lot, but how would you know? What would you compare it to? Right. So I would say one of the best things you could do to people who are considering getting married is put them in a room with people who've been good at that technology, who've managed to not only endure marriage, but endure it and still like it. And thrive. Right. And thrive. Right, and still say, "You know what?" Yeah. "I'd sign on for this again." Yeah. Like, in a room full of people, I'd still pick this person. Yeah, that's cool. You know? And, and, and how many of those opportunities do we really get- Mm ... to talk to people that way about their relationship? Not many, yeah. Yeah. And maybe also talk to someone who's been through divorce and ask them- Absolutely ... what didn't work and why didn't it work and what we need to look out for. Where did it break down? Yeah. Exactly. See, one of the, the principles that inspired me to write the book was the idea that, you know, again, I hate using car metaphors 'cause I'm not a car guy either. [laughs] But it's the best analogy I can think of in the sense that if, if when you bought a car, you did every bit of preventative maintenance that a mechanic told you to do- Mm-hmm ... 'cause we're- You change the oil every- Everything, right ... two months or whatever. Yeah. You did everything. My sister's a dentist. Yeah. You know? And, and she always says to me, "By the time your tooth hurts- It's too late ... you're, you're screwed." Prevent it. Yeah, you- Floss every day, not after you begin having- Right. If you do all the stuff she tells you to do when you go see her, your teeth are gonna do well. Yeah. So it's, for me, who knows more about how a car breaks down than a mechanic, right? Mm-hmm. So I, I know what, I know people are in my office and I get a very candid view of them, and I get to talk to them, and I have been very blessed that people trust me with tremendously personal information. And so what I wanted to do with that information is just find a way to leverage that into some- Mm-hmm ... kind of wisdom- Yeah ... that people could use and say, "You know what? Just don't do what they did." When we were talking about titles for the book, you know, it was a- Mm ... a hilarious escapade because, you know, one of the first ideas was, well, we'll call it Everyone's Screwing Everyone because it was about how people just abuse each other in the process of divorce- Oh, man ... and how they're really taking advantage of each other. And then we said, "Well, no, that's too pessimistic." And we said, "Well, you know, maybe we could, you know, just call it, you know, um, uh, Vows and talk about, like, the promises that people make." But it's not really the promises that are interesting. It's the way that people go in with good intentions with those promises- Yeah ... and they just can't keep it together. Can't keep it, yeah. So I really think that, that, you know, for me, um, the best thing we can do with anybody is, is to, yeah, show them s- a model of success, right? And show them a model of failure. You know, and, and, and look, you've said it a million times on this show that you learn just as much from your successes as your failures. Mm-hmm. You might learn more from your failures even to some degree. Right, yeah. So we don't have those role models. We don't have relationship role models, you know? And, you know, one of the things, y- you talked about Masking Masculinity when you're talking about, um, uh, Neil Strauss- Mm-hmm ... um, and his marriage and how he says, "Look, it was my stuff. It wasn't..." Like I said, "Oh, I don't like marriage 'cause I don't like this about it and I don't like that it for- would force me to do this and force me to do that," and really what it was is he just didn't wanna look at his own stuff. Yeah. And, and, and he felt like to have a good marriage, he'd have to look at his own stuff, which- Mm-hmm ... is absolutely true. Yeah. [laughs] You know? And, and, and- It's terrifying. Yeah ... most of what my book is about is about, yeah, you gotta look at your stuff. Yeah. If you wanna, if you wanna be successful in this technology, you gotta look at it- Own it and share it with this person
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm. And be aware and be honest with the person about who you are and what you-
- JSJames Sexton
Right
- LHLewis Howes
... what you want, what you don't want.
- JSJames Sexton
Right.
- 18:15 – 22:37
Sexton's Own Marriage and Conscious Uncoupling
- LHLewis Howes
Now, you were, you were married for how long?
- JSJames Sexton
I was married for 12 years.
- LHLewis Howes
12 years.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
Got divorced.
- JSJames Sexton
Yep, got divorced.
- LHLewis Howes
While you were a divorce attorney.
- JSJames Sexton
Yes, while I was a divorce attorney.
- LHLewis Howes
So you're hearing these stories every day-
- JSJames Sexton
And going through it
- LHLewis Howes
... going through your marriage.
- JSJames Sexton
But, you know, my, yeah, I mean, my, my marriage, I think, benefited from my experience as a divorce lawyer.
- LHLewis Howes
'Cause you knew the cues of what not to do or what was gonna work.
- JSJames Sexton
Yes. But it, it was hurt by the fact that I love what I do for a living and was so consumed with it that I worked constantly.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
Um, you know, my ex-wife, who is one of my dearest friends to this day-
- LHLewis Howes
Oh, that's good
- JSJames Sexton
... she's remarried to an amazing guy who's a, a great stepdad to my sons who are now older. They're, they're both in college. Um, but I'm very blessed. I mean, I've, I've had an experience of divorce where I, I'm still close friends with her. I'm clo- I'm friends with her husband. Um, you know, and I, I, I'm very lucky for that. Because I look at it like there's a lot of people I love that I wouldn't want to be married to.
- LHLewis Howes
Sure.
- JSJames Sexton
And she's one of them. She's someone I love. She's someone I appreciate, who I think is just an amazing person, but we don't have the chemist- the exact ingredients that you need to be successful in marriage.
- LHLewis Howes
Long term, yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Because we met when we were 17.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
And what we wanted when we were 17, 18, 19, 22 when we got married, 24 when we had kids, when we turned around and we're in our 30s, we went, "You know, we don't actually have that much in common." And so either I'm gonna have to stop being who I actually am, like, I love to travel. You don't love to travel. You love, you know-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm
- JSJames Sexton
... I mean, from silly things.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
You love shabby chic furniture, and I like very zen aesthetics.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
You know? Like, you love this kind of movie, and I love this kind of movie. And you reach a point where you kinda go, well, do we white-knuckle it now because we don't wanna quit something that isn't working? Or do we say, "You know what? Let's call this. Let's call this, and let's find someone who feeds us in the right way and, and, and see if, or, or just be alone for the right reasons," you know?
- 22:37 – 27:15
Is Marriage Hard? Paying Attention and the Granola Story
- LHLewis Howes
Oh, man. Um, do you feel like, you know, marriage, I hear this all the time, it's something that's not gonna be easy, right?
- JSJames Sexton
Mm-hmm.
- LHLewis Howes
There's gonna be challenges. There's gonna be fights or arguments, and there's gonna be-
- JSJames Sexton
Sure
- LHLewis Howes
... some things that you're not gonna agree on.
- JSJames Sexton
Sure.
- LHLewis Howes
If you agree on everything, awesome.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
But it doesn't sound like-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- LHLewis Howes
... there's many marriages that are always-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- LHLewis Howes
... perfect and always-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- LHLewis Howes
... smooth.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
After 10, 20, 30 years-
- JSJames Sexton
Mm-hmm
- LHLewis Howes
... there's gonna be some conflict.
- JSJames Sexton
Mm-hmm.
- LHLewis Howes
So does that mean, in your opinion, that we should just be like, "You know what? Let's just throw in the towel when it gets too challenging," or, "You know what? It's getting challenging. That's when we gotta dive in deeper and, like, come together as a marriage, 'cause we signed up for this"?
- JSJames Sexton
It's a, it's a great question. I would say the following. I, I think one of the most common things people will say to you about marriage is, "You know, marriage is hard. Marriage is hard." I, I don't know that that's true. I, I, I think if you consider paying attention hard-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm
- JSJames Sexton
... then marriage is hard.
- LHLewis Howes
Right.
- JSJames Sexton
If you don't consider paying attention hard, then I don't think marriage has to be hard.
- LHLewis Howes
Right.
- JSJames Sexton
I, I think that it's, again, not to, to use the metaphor again, but, you know, losing weight is harder than maintaining your weight, and I really think y- look, you're gonna have challenges.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
You're not necessarily gonna have fights. You're gonna have challenges. E- life is gonna throw challenges in your way, illness, adversity, career issues, you know, day-to-day miscommunications with each other.
- 27:15 – 30:46
Asking Pragmatic Questions Before Marriage
- LHLewis Howes
What do you think are the most important things to find out about your spouse before getting married?
- JSJames Sexton
See, I'm super pragmatic about that. I think you're gonna be living with somebody, so I think you should, you should know some bare bones things.
- LHLewis Howes
Right.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, I wanna know can you go to bed with a dish in the sink still?
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
Or are you somebody that, like, needs to have the dishes clean? What time do you go to bed? What time do you like to wake up in the morning? Are you a loud morning person or a quiet morning person?
- LHLewis Howes
Right.
- JSJames Sexton
Do you, you know, uh, how do you feel, like, what, how do you feel about credit card debt? How do you feel about very pragmatic question, how many times a week do you think you should have sex when you're married for you to be satisfied, you know?
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
These are the kinds of questions.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, if I'm signing up to live with another human being, to share my finances with them, and to only have sex with them for the rest of my life, these are-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah. [laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
... important questions.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah. [laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
I mean, for real, like, why, would you buy a car and, "Oh, I don't know how many miles it is," or, "I don't know how many doors it has"?
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, these are basic questions.
- LHLewis Howes
Or if it's gonna turn on when I turn it, try to turn on-
- JSJames Sexton
Right
- LHLewis Howes
... yeah. [laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
Right. Like, just ask some fundamental, honest questions.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
And, and, and look, there's nothing wrong with asking those questions. There's nothing-
- LHLewis Howes
Yes
- JSJames Sexton
... we've, we've convinced people that this idea of, like, a soulmate-
- LHLewis Howes
Right
- JSJames Sexton
... that you should just meet someone, instant chemistry, and if you don't have instant chemistry and perfection, you're doing it wrong. And so you're, you're discouraged from asking pragmatic, practical questions-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... like, listen, how many times a week do you think you should have sex, or how many times a week... Because if you had those conversations, not only are you gonna go into the relationship with your eyes open, but it's gonna allow you to actually serve the needs of your spouse a little bit better. Like, if I know what you want-
- 30:46 – 34:21
Reconnecting Through Communication: Hit Send Now
- LHLewis Howes
When you f- when a couple is starting to lose connection, what do you think they can do to get reconnected?
- JSJames Sexton
I think the, I mean, the core is communication.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Just start talking.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
You know, just start, I, I, I-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... talk about ways to have that conversation, you know, very pragmatic, practical.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, I didn't wanna write a book that was filled with conclusions-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm
- JSJames Sexton
... of lofty, "So you need to reconnect with your partner." What the hell does that mean? You know, like when your partner says, um, "You know, I wanna feel more fulfilled," what does that mean? Like, do, do you mean you wanna have a date night once a week, or do you mean you wanna surf more often? 'Cause I don't know if I should take you out to dinner or drive you to the beach.
- LHLewis Howes
Right. [laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
Like, what, what does that mean?
- LHLewis Howes
Be specific, yeah, yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Specifically. And so, you know, I, I think people need to know how to talk to each other. And in fact, why not have a conversation about how you have conversations?
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, why not talk about, listen, when there's a problem in the marriage, how are we gonna talk to each other about it? And one of the things, there's a chapter in there called Hit Send Now, and it's about just this very simple idea, and that is send an email to your partner. You know, hit s- the, the reason I call it hit send now is that I always thought it's kind of funny when you s- you hit send on an email, you can't hit, like, un-send.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, it's just you hit it and you're like, "Oh, wow, okay, it's out there now," you know?
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
And I've had emails where I'm like, you know, I write my email and I'm like, "Phew, okay, there it is. Like, I can't take it back now," you know? And it's kind of exciting-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... but it's also kinda terrifying.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
And I think the idea of hit send now is to, is to say, like, listen, when some little thing's going on in the marriage that you don't, you know that this could be an issue someday, but you don't wanna, you know... Write an email.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
Write an email to the person and say like, "Hey, listen, when we were sitting around last night and we were having dinner, and you kinda made that little comment about my sister. Like, I don't know if you meant it or not, but, like, it kinda hurt, you know? It made me feel really weird 'cause I always thought you liked my sister and... So I dunno, I just wanted to let you know," you know?
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
And, and, and see, unlike a conversation, if we have that in a conversation, you immediately are gonna be defensive.
- 34:21 – 37:15
Top Reasons for Divorce: Infidelity, Finances, and Indifference
- LHLewis Howes
What would you say are the top three reasons people get divorced? Is it infidelity? Is it financial? Is it something else?
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah, I mean, the top three big reasons?
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
Um, again, you know-
- LHLewis Howes
Obviously the little things add up and-
- JSJames Sexton
... with the idea that the little things add up and cause these things, but yeah, absolutely infidelity would be number one. Finances would be number two. Um, and number three would be, I would just call it attrition. It would just be, you know, that relationships just, they just burn out.
- LHLewis Howes
Just worn down.
- JSJames Sexton
Or people just don't care anymore.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
You know, the opposite of love isn't hate.
- LHLewis Howes
It's contempt, right?
- JSJames Sexton
It's indifference.
- LHLewis Howes
Indifference.
- JSJames Sexton
I mean, hate is a passionate emotion. Like, if you hate me, you, you feel strongly about me.
- LHLewis Howes
If you just don't care anymore.
- JSJames Sexton
Right. Like, you know, there's a line in Casablanca, the movie, where, you know, the, uh, one of the characters says to Humphrey Bogart's character, he says, "Boy, you really hate me." And he says to him, "You know, I, I suppose if I gave you any thought, I probably would." And I, I found in my, when I saw that film, I thought, "Oh, that's the most cutting insult." Because when you really just don't care, like, that's the opposite of love. 'Cause love is about I'm paying attention. I wanna please you. Your pleasure gives me pleasure. Your joy gives me joy. Your sadness becomes my burden.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
You know, and it becomes something I want to alleviate. So indifference, that sense of I don't care what you're doing, I don't care if you're happy, I don't care if you're sad, I don't care, that's the thing. And, and that's where people land sometimes.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
You know, is they just land in that place where, where they used to care, and then in this escalating war of, "Well, I shouldn't have to do that. Well, I shouldn't have to do this. Well, I shouldn't have to do that. Well, then I shouldn't have to do that," and now you got two people that are just-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... great, you guys won. Good job.
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
Neither of you has to do anything for each other anymore.
- LHLewis Howes
Right.
- JSJames Sexton
Great job.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Great job. You're living with a person who owes you nothing, and you owe them nothing except what the state tells you that you owe each other.
- LHLewis Howes
Wow.
- JSJames Sexton
And w- you never meant to be there.
- 37:15 – 41:25
Marriage's Origins and the Yours, Mine, and Ours Finance System
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
You know?
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah. I saw one of the chapters says, "Yours, Mine, and Ours:"
- JSJames Sexton
Right
- LHLewis Howes
... "The Financial System That Works Best."
- JSJames Sexton
Right, yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
So I think a lot of people have their own way of how they wanna run their money.
- JSJames Sexton
Right.
- LHLewis Howes
Right?
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
They like managing it their way, spending it-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- LHLewis Howes
... on things they wanna spend it on.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
Some like getting in debt.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
Others don't like getting in debt.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
So how do you find our way?
- JSJames Sexton
Well, I mean, you gotta keep in mind, marriage was created as a technology, right?
- LHLewis Howes
When was it created?
- JSJames Sexton
When women were property, essentially. I mean, it was created in medieval context. I mean, it was created essentially to, to, you know, preserve wealth. It was c- created to preserve lands, right? R- royal families would marry each other, and rich families would marry each other to preserve land, you know, and to bring clans together. You know, the Game of Thrones mentality of, "All right, I'm marrying this person, not 'cause I love them, but because this makes sense. This family makes sense. This, this uni- union of the clans makes sense."
- LHLewis Howes
Fits our visions, yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Right, okay. So that's the origin of marriage. Now, at some point, you know, 1920s, 1930s, it started turning into some romantic notion, right? Some notion of, "Well, I should have some-"
- LHLewis Howes
It's the movies. The movies brought that in.
- JSJames Sexton
Right, some strong-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
You know, it's entirely possible. I mean, entertainment media is very much how people-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... perceive. You know, advertising is the dream life of a culture.
- 41:25 – 52:08
Why People Cheat: Connection, Sex, and Intimacy
- LHLewis Howes
what do, what do you think is the real reason people cheat on each other? Is it these little things that have added up over time-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- LHLewis Howes
... that people aren't paying attention to?
- JSJames Sexton
I mean, I think at its core it's the human need for connection.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
I mean, I think Esther Perel and, you know, there's a lot of people-
- LHLewis Howes
She's incredible.
- JSJames Sexton
She's incredible, incredible.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
I, I, I, I love her work, and I love the way she thinks about things.
- LHLewis Howes
Do you know her personally or no?
- JSJames Sexton
I don't.
- LHLewis Howes
No.
- JSJames Sexton
And I, I've, I've secretly said to everyone-
- LHLewis Howes
You guys should connect
- JSJames Sexton
... to do a panel with her would be the coolest thing-
- LHLewis Howes
It'd be amazing
- JSJames Sexton
... in the world.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, it'd be great.
- JSJames Sexton
The future of marriage, you know? We really... Because she has such incredible perspective.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
And she comes at it from this mental health perspective, and she comes at it from a really, like a hacker mentality.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
I don't think she realizes it, but she is, like she wants to Uber marriage.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
Like she's thinking about, like, "Well, why don't we do it different?" Like what, instead of, you know, she's got that Silicon Valley approach, which is, "Don't look at how we did it. Look at it and go, well, wait, what if we just rip the technology apart-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm
- JSJames Sexton
... and started from nothing? What could we do with it?"
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
You know? And, and I love that about her.
- 52:08 – 1:01:41
What Marriage Legally Means and the Case for a Prenup
- LHLewis Howes
I was at a Cirque du Soleil, uh, show over the weekend in Vegas, and it was Zumanity, which is like-
- JSJames Sexton
Mm
- LHLewis Howes
... the sexual, like, lovey, you know-
- JSJames Sexton
Sure
- LHLewis Howes
... sensual one.
- JSJames Sexton
Sure.
- LHLewis Howes
And the, uh, host of the show, the drag queen, was asking questions to people who were c- looked like couples.
- JSJames Sexton
Right.
- LHLewis Howes
And like, "How long have you been married? How long have you been married? Are you married? Are you together?"
- JSJames Sexton
Right.
- LHLewis Howes
And, uh, the drag queen asked one of the, the couples, and was like, "How long have you guys been married?" And they said, "We're, we're not married, but we're life partners."
- JSJames Sexton
Mm-hmm.
- LHLewis Howes
And she goes, "Well, what does that mean?"
- JSJames Sexton
Right.
- LHLewis Howes
And then, and then the guy took the mic and he said, "We're not allowing the government or the state to dictate our relationship."
- JSJames Sexton
Sure. Sure.
- LHLewis Howes
I thought that was interesting perspective.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
You know, what are all the things that the government or the state actually dictates when you sign a contract of marriage?
- JSJames Sexton
Sure. Yeah. And you know, the funny thing is, is isn't it amazing that you live in a culture where marriage is everywhere and you don't know the answer to that? N- no, and I'm not saying you specifically.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Nobody knows the answer to that.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, I know probably 20 engaged people who don't know the answer to that.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
You know, whoever discovered water, it wasn't a fish. You know? And, and what happens in these situations is people are so surrounded by marriage as a technology that they don't ever stop and ask the question like, "Wait a minute, what..." By the way, what legally happens when I get married? So I mean, what legally happens when you get married is, A, you opt out of the title system. So you know, I have a car-
- LHLewis Howes
Title system
- JSJames Sexton
... it's in my name, it's titled in my name. I have a bank account, it's titled in my name. So title is the legal term for when someone's name is on something.
- LHLewis Howes
Okay.
- JSJames Sexton
So if you and I are friends, and you own a car and it's in your name, and I own a car and it's in my name, I can't go, "I'm taking your car now, Lewis," because your car's in your name.
- 1:01:41 – 1:07:35
Would He Marry Again? Marriage as a Personalized Technology
- LHLewis Howes
now, would you ever, you've been, you've been married, you've been divorced. Would you ever get married again? And do you believe in the technology in the way that it is right now still?
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah. I, I believe very much in marriage. I think marriage is like the lottery. You're probably not gonna win.
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs] Okay.
- JSJames Sexton
But, but if you win, what you win is so good that it's worth buying a ticket.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
It's worth giving a try. My parents were married for over 50 years. My mom passed away two years ago-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm
- JSJames Sexton
... after a long battle with cancer.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
But they had a tremendous partnership, and their lives were better for having loved each other.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
And they had ups and they had downs and they had challenges, but their lives were really enriched by the fact that they married each other. I, I think the upside of marriage is so good, and the downside doesn't have to be as bad as we make it. So I think we have to, I think that's where Esther Perel's got it right, is-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm
- JSJames Sexton
... we have to reinvent how we view marriage.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
And we have to, as a culture, start talking about what's really going on in marriages, and what, what, what-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... what's really happening with them, and what's really important to us in marriage and why we're getting married. We have to start looking at marriage as a technology, not as some romantic sentiment. And I think if we do that, we're gonna find ourselves in a better place as a culture. And, and, and that's a technology that might be worth signing on for.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
You know? But definitely a prenup. I mean, a prenup would be in order.
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs] Gotcha. Now, so you would get married again.
- JSJames Sexton
Mm-hmm.
- LHLewis Howes
Let's say you got married, and it worked, and it was amazing, and all the things happened that you wanted to happen-
- JSJames Sexton
Mm-hmm
- LHLewis Howes
... and it enriched both of your lives. But for whatever reason, you realize 10, 20 la- years later, like-
- JSJames Sexton
Right
- LHLewis Howes
... it's not working for us anymore.
- JSJames Sexton
Right.
- LHLewis Howes
And you decide to s- part ways again.
- JSJames Sexton
Right.
- 1:07:35 – 1:12:23
Advice to His Sons and Admired Relationship Role Models
- LHLewis Howes
What are your ch- you have two kids you said, or one?
- JSJames Sexton
Two kids.
- LHLewis Howes
Two kids.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
What, what advice do you give to them on marriage?
- JSJames Sexton
You know, I've, I've always told them to take it seriously, just take marriage seriously. I mean, my, my one son is 19. The other one's soon to be 21.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
And, um, they're both, you know, I mean, my older son is at the age where I, I married his mother. Um, and we remind him of that constantly.
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
He's completely freaked out by it.
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
Um, and my younger son is at the age where I moved in with his mother, and, um, he's also equally freaked out by that thought, you know? But, but I, I'm very blessed in the sense that my sons grew up with a sense of marriage as a technology because of what their father does for a living, and also because, you know, we had to explain to them at the ages of, you know-
- LHLewis Howes
When you got divorced, yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... 10, or 8 and 10. We had to explain to them in a way that a kid could understand, and the way we chose to do it was to say to them a very specific thing. We said to them-
- LHLewis Howes
Hmm
- JSJames Sexton
... "You know, Mom and Dad don't love each other in the very specific way married people are supposed to. But we both love you, and you're only gonna have one mom and one dad, and we're always gonna be a family." And we repeated that over and over and over and over again.
- LHLewis Howes
Hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
You know? Because think about, like, break that down a little bit.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
It's not Mom and Dad don't love each other. Mom and Dad love each other. There's a lot of people I love I wouldn't wanna be married to.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
We don't love each other in the very specific way married people are supposed to love each other. And kids can understand that, because kids know the way I love Grandma, the way I love Mom, the way I love my teddy bear are three different ways.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
So it's okay to say, you know, "I love this person, but I don't love them in the very specific way a married person is supposed to love their spouse."
- LHLewis Howes
Hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
You know? And that to me, um, is, is what I've always tried to say to them.
- LHLewis Howes
Hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
Is just when you marry, if you're thinking about getting married, take it seriously. Ask yourself, "What problem am I trying to solve by marrying this person?" Look at honestly what they want, what you want, and what will likely happen in your life, just like that car example, you know? Yeah, you don't know what's gonna happen in life, but there are certain predictable things that you can think about.
- LHLewis Howes
Right.
- JSJames Sexton
You know, I'm gonna get older. I'm gonna, my health will fail eventually at some point. I may wanna have kids. I mean, I'm going backwards, but-
- 1:12:23 – 1:18:28
Three Truths, Acknowledgment, and Definition of Greatness
- LHLewis Howes
couple final questions for you. Uh, this is called the three truths.
- JSJames Sexton
Okay.
- LHLewis Howes
And if this was your last day many years from now, and all the stuff you've written and talked about and everything you've experienced and all your dreams you've had come true-
- JSJames Sexton
Mm
- LHLewis Howes
... but you wouldn't be able to leave them behind. You'd have to take them with you. So no one would have access to all your information, your message, your content-
- JSJames Sexton
Hmm
- LHLewis Howes
... the things you've done. You'd have to bring it with you when you, when you pass on.
- JSJames Sexton
Okay.
- LHLewis Howes
Uh, but you got to leave behind a piece of paper that said your three truths, three things you knew to be true about all your experiences in life, whether it be from your career, work, love, relationships, parenting, whatever it may be.
- JSJames Sexton
Okay.
- LHLewis Howes
But these would only be three lessons you could leave behind.
- JSJames Sexton
Uh-huh.
- LHLewis Howes
What would you say are your three truths?
- JSJames Sexton
So I would say the first one would be that the hard thing to do and the right thing to do are almost always the same thing, because I think that, that that's something I've learned in every aspect of my life, that the hard thing and the right thing are almost always the same thing.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
The second thing would be it's all about connection. I would probably just write, it's all about connection, and I would hope that the person would understand what I meant.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
That there really was nothing else at the end of the day. It's that everything we do in our lives, whether it's our desire for sex, our desire for money, our desire for art, to create art, to create beauty, it's all about connection. We're just trying to connect to each other and, and, and that's the beauty of it, and that's the tragedy of it. Because in my office I see the beauty of it, and then I see the tragedy of it when we lose that connection-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... or when we miss that connection or when we let that connection fall apart. So I would say it's all about connection. And, uh, the third, the third thing I, I, you know, and it's probably a shallow thing to say, but I would say don't take it so seriously.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
You know, I, I think when I look back on my life as a, a, a 45-year-old man, you know, solidly mid-life, um, I, I look back on it and I think to myself that there really are only five or six moments that when I think about my life, I go, "Wow, that was such a great moment." And none of them, when it was happening, did I realize how great it was.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
You know, I think back now, I just had this thought the other day, 'cause both my sons are in college now, and my youngest... So I became an empty nester in September when my youngest went off to college, and I was thinking the other day about if I had to think of a moment in my life that was, like, the, just the greatest moment, and it wouldn't be, like, when I graduated law school or when I, you know, uh, uh, uh, you know, won some trial or when my book was published, you know? It was, it would be, like, some night when I was divorced for a year or two and I, you know, went to the store and got just what the kids liked to eat 'cause they were coming for the weekend, and I, like, made them dinner and they sat at the table doing their homework, and we were just together, and I felt like a really engaged, wonderful, loving father. You know, I... It wasn't the kind of father I had. My father was, like, a, of his generation kind of a father.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
You know, he, he drank and he kind of, you know, didn't talk, talk too much about feelings or anything like that. He wasn't the kinda man that would read The Mask of Masculinity.
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
Um, but, but it, to me, those little moments, those unexpected little moments, it's everything. And so just don't take all of the other stuff so seriously, because when you look back, even in a marriage, like, the, the, there are moments in that marriage that you, while it's happening, you had no idea that that was the best it was gonna get, you know?
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
So just cultivate space, you know, and, and leave-
Episode duration: 1:18:42
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