Relationship Experts Debate the 5 Hidden Signs of Cheating! | Matthew Hussey & Sadia Khan

Sadia Khan 0:00 I always ask was there anything before marriage that signaled this person has the propensity to have two simultaneous connections?

Lewis Howes 0:06 Mm.

Sadia Khan 0:06 Nine times out of 10 there's always something. So-

Lewis Howes 0:08 One of the main things that, that he was in another relationship or-

Sadia Khan 0:11 He had other simultaneous relationships or the person just never was single.

Matthew Hussey 0:14 It's a fairly dismal view of people-

Sadia Khan 0:17 I know

Matthew Hussey 0:18 ... you've just put forward.

Lewis Howes 0:19 Welcome back Sadia Khan. A psychologist and relationship coach, Sadia Khan. And we have dating and relationships expert and coach, the inspiring Matthew Hussey in the house. My man.

Matthew Hussey 0:29 But I know plenty of very strong women who have been cheated on.

Sadia Khan 0:32 Yeah. When we get into relationships with people it comes with conditions. Nobody's unconditional. Now we sign an imaginary contract that I've seen the needs you have, you've seen the needs I have. We naturally expect our partners to guess our needs. Human nature is flawed.

Matthew Hussey 0:45 Forgive me if I'm misreading you.

Sadia Khan 0:46 No, no, no.

Matthew Hussey 0:47 But it-

Sadia Khan 0:47 I'm sure you're right

Matthew Hussey 0:48 ... feels like for you the headline is it was your fault.

Sadia Khan 0:52 Uh-huh.

Matthew Hussey 0:53 And for me the headline is this was them.

Sadia Khan 0:56 And I would highly disagree with that because-

Matthew Hussey 0:59 I'm truly shocked.

Sadia Khan 1:00 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:04 When someone is liv- wearing a mask or living a double life-

Sadia Khan 1:09 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:10 ... meaning they have a relationship or a marriage or kids, but then they're going out and trying to seek something else somewhere else-

Sadia Khan 1:16 Uh-huh

Lewis Howes 1:16 ... to live a different identity, to express themselves in a different way, what is that saying about them that they either are missing or that they need to work on to overcome?

Sadia Khan 1:25 They're unable to have difficult conversations with the people they need to have it with.

Lewis Howes 1:29 Wow.

Sadia Khan 1:29 So instead they just find a way to release the energy and mask what that, uh, need is rather than actually confront the issue where it should be. So whoever they have fallen in love with or started a life with, they started it on more th- kind of on the dynamic that you were describing in your 20s. They started it on that dynamic of suppressing who they truly are, suppressing their true needs, but not having the courage to walk away, and not having the courage to end it. And as a result, they've had to maintain this false identity for the rest of their life, which as they get older and they get more disgruntled and they fear, like the fear of losing their family decreases. As men age it's not like their sex drive goes up, but their willingness to cheat kind of sometimes goes up 'cause they're like, "Oh, oh." They're a bit more brave. So they end up then ex- uh, you know, engaging in behaviors that they sh- shouldn't be doing. And it's all stems from if they just had a more vulnerable, honest conversation with the person they love to begin with, they wouldn't find themselves searching for themselves in other people.

Lewis Howes 2:27 Wow.

Matthew Hussey 2:28 Could you ex- Would, would, when you say men get older and they get more kind of brave-

Sadia Khan 2:32 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 2:32 ... about cheating, what, wh- help me understand.

Sadia Khan 2:35 Well, well, what I noticed is like in the beginning stages, because they're still in the people stages, in a fearful state, they don't risk it as much. As children come along and as they feel less and less appreciated, I'm not saying they deserve appreciation all the time. Some men really are difficult. But as they mentally feel like, "I've spent 10 years being loyal to her," and they almost feel like it's a credit. Like 10 years being-

Lewis Howes 2:56 I deserve this or something

Sadia Khan 2:57 ... I deserve. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 2:57 Uh-huh.

Sadia Khan 2:58 So I deserve. So they say, "I've done this, and I, I've always been a great husband and I've always been picking up the kids, and I've always, uh, uh, you know, kind of, uh, suppressed my sexual desires whenever she doesn't want it.

Sadia Khan 3:08 Now I deserve something special."

Lewis Howes 3:10 I'm not getting what I've needed-

Sadia Khan 3:11 And-

Lewis Howes 3:11 ... for the last 10 years, or what I wanted.

Sadia Khan 3:13 Yeah. And I'm not saying they're wrong or right-

Lewis Howes 3:14 Uh-huh

Sadia Khan 3:14 ... but that's the mental conversation they have. And because they develop this deserved m- entitlement, I, I'm not saying maybe they do deserve it, maybe they don't, they then start to think-

Matthew Hussey 3:23 We should probably say it's wrong.

Sadia Khan 3:24 Yeah. I, I mean, the thing-

Matthew Hussey 3:25 [laughs]

Sadia Khan 3:26 Sometimes what happens... A- and it, in their defense, sometimes what happens is they have created a really good, and they have been a good husband for many years, but in the process of being a good husband it's been done by suppressing their needs. So they sometimes are left with-

Lewis Howes 3:37 But they haven't been courageous in expressing them either

Sadia Khan 3:39 ... they haven't. That's the main problem. It's not that the wife is this evil wife that deprives him of sex or deprives him of intimacy. Some men have gone months, years without getting that fundamental need met, but they never voiced it enough. They might say it in a jokey way or in a drunken night out that, "I don't get enough sex," but they don't say it in a car- constructive way.

Lewis Howes 3:55 Why do you think men are more willing to cheat than have a courageous conversation and say to their wife or their partner, "Here's what I really want sexually"?

Sadia Khan 4:04 Because what they truly desire sexually is going to be met with some resistance with the partner they selected.

Lewis Howes 4:10 Mm.

Sadia Khan 4:10 And they understand that that's-

Lewis Howes 4:11 Or they think it will.

Sadia Khan 4:12 They think it will.

Lewis Howes 4:13 Yeah, yeah.

Sadia Khan 4:13 And they think that it's almost uncom- whatever they're desiring, they almost... When you have a wife and you've sh- you've seen her breastfeed your children and you've gone through that kind of experience with her, it almost feels unfair to tell her your fantasy about what you want done and stuff.

Lewis Howes 4:27 Yeah.

Sadia Khan 4:27 So they have these two kind of compartments when it comes to sex, this, that. And then that one almost feels unaligned to the woman they married.

Lewis Howes 4:34 That's interesting.

Matthew Hussey 4:35 Why, but why, why are we talking about this just in the vein of men and not women saying that I've put in all of this work, I've raised these kids, I've been here 20 years, I quite feel entitled to a younger, hotter man now?

Sadia Khan 4:49 It-

Matthew Hussey 4:49 Why, why are we talking about this just in the context of men?

Sadia Khan 4:51 Um, uh, in just my experience of it, what happens in my experience of women that love their husband and have this connected lifestyle, their desire for sex decreases as they feel more connected. As they have the kids, as they're stable, they feel like, "Oh, we had the adventurous sex in the first 10 years. Like, I don't need to do this at 45 years old. Like, I've done my time." And-

Matthew Hussey 5:08 Are there stats though? I, I can't, I don't know the stats on this, but-

Sadia Khan 5:11 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 5:11 ... aren't there stats, aren't the stats actually more damning sometimes for women than men in how many women cheat in long-term relationships?

Sadia Khan 5:18 I would imagine they are so, but I would s- still say it might be because they had a people pleaser kind of husband, that they couldn't get that masculinity out of or they couldn't get those courageous conversations out of or they couldn't get that confrontational, uh, nature out of him, and they found it in a man that would just say, "I want this from you. I want that from you." And that f- meant, make them feel a bit more alive than the guy that's kind of submiss- suppressing himself. But again, I, this is just, like I said, I have a skewed version of male v- uh, version of events. So what hap- in my experience, what I... If they think they've done 10 years of loyalty, they deserve 10 years of, like enjoying their life. If they've done-

Lewis Howes 5:54 Or even one year of like something, right?

Sadia Khan 5:55 Or even one year.

Lewis Howes 5:55 They're like, "Okay, I can just have a few escorts every now and then

Lewis Howes 5:58 or something."

Sadia Khan 5:58 Yeah, particularly if they've been deprived of sex. They can always compromise with any other deprivation, but when they feel-

Lewis Howes 6:03 Really?

Sadia Khan 6:03 ... deprived of sex they feel like they've earned the right to free sex when, as they get older.

Lewis Howes 6:08 Wow.

Sadia Khan 6:08 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 6:08 But if, but what can men do in that position? Let's say there's a man who's been in a, a five to a 15-year marriage. They've got a family. They, they have kids, and they've tried to do their best as a, as a husband and a leader-

Sadia Khan 6:20 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 6:20 ... and a father.

Sadia Khan 6:21 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 6:21 But they are just craving some type of sexual adventure.

Sadia Khan 6:24 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 6:25 And they in, deep down don't think that their wife ... can give them that. Or maybe they can't get out of their head what they've seen the last 15 years of their wife breastfeeding and being a motherly figure and not a sexual figure. Whatever it is.

Sadia Khan 6:37 Yeah, something's, the switch has turned off.

Lewis Howes 6:38 Yeah, maybe a switch has turned off 'cause they're now, like, motherly as opposed to sexual being, whatever it might be. What can a man do to communicate what they want sexually without hurting the woman they're with?

Sadia Khan 6:50 I think the first thing is to watch your habits. If you are constantly stimulating yourself with too much pornography and too much social media and stuff, that's not gonna help your situation, by looking at novel situations again and again. So watch what you, uh, consume. The second conversation is you've just got to remember what means more to you. Does the thrill of sex mean more to you than the safety of a marriage and kids? Now, if you recognize that marriage means more, but it doesn't mean I don't want the thrill. I still want that. I still deserve that. Then what it moves on to is having conversations with your wife to understand how you can ignite that sex appeal in her. Perhaps there's something you're doing that's making you not feel like she, i- you are not tapping into that femininity in her.

Lewis Howes 7:32 Mm.

Sadia Khan 7:32 It's sometimes a dynamic. So ask her, "Is there something that I used to do or I can do that would make you feel more connected to me?" And they say, "Oh, in the beginning she was so wild," but maybe in the beginning you were taking her out more, or maybe in the beginning you were texting her a lot more, or maybe in the beginning you weren't turning to pornography on nights when you were. So maybe there was behaviors in you in the beginning that ignited a b- a part of her that made her more-

Lewis Howes 7:54 But you stopped giving her that.

Sadia Khan 7:55 Yeah

Lewis Howes 7:55 Yeah, yeah.

Sadia Khan 7:56 So have those conversations. And sometimes some women are just plain difficult, and I understand those circumstances. But until you've tried what you did in the beginning, you can't completely complain that that's gone.

Lewis Howes 8:05 Mm.

Sadia Khan 8:05 Yeah. So-

Lewis Howes 8:06 And, and before I jump to you, Matthew-

Sadia Khan 8:07 Yeah

Lewis Howes 8:07 ... do you think from the men that you're working with or you hear conversations with, are you hearing that more men cheat or more women cheat?

Sadia Khan 8:15 From my experience, it's more women. Yeah, from my experiences, and there are a couple of reasons for that, is, um, women are, are naturally, I, in my experience and being a woman myself, is we're a bit more aware of a man's propensity to cheat. So we're not particularly naive when it comes to when he's gone for too long, and he hasn't answered too many calls, and he hasn't been available. We're a bit more attuned to these signs, and we kind of-

Lewis Howes 8:38 What's happening.

Sadia Khan 8:39 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 8:39 And we ask him, "Hey, where were you?" And you weren't, you weren't saying what was happening.

Sadia Khan 8:42 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 8:42 You were vague.

Sadia Khan 8:43 We've had friends that have been cheated on that tell us all about it, and they tell us all the signs. Our moms might tell us all the signs and stuff. Whereas for men, that conversation is so

Sadia Khan 8:51 sacred. They don't really have that with each other. So they're also missing... So they go in with a little bit of naivety, that women just don't cheat whatsoever. They just think, "My wife would never." That's their common thing. That, "She would never." And the other thing is they're not attuned to the signs. They're not attuned to the signals. So when she is depriving him of affection or depriving him of attention, or when she starts taking care of herself and going out a little bit more, or making more of an effort to go to work, they just see that as normal feminine behavior. They just see that as, you know, girls getting dressed up. They, they don't necessarily see the signs that it's a change in dynamic. They don't pick up the signals as much. They become a little bit curious, but they don't become accusatory the same way that-

Lewis Howes 9:27 Really?

Sadia Khan 9:27 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 9:27 Matthew-

Matthew Hussey 9:27 But were you, were you saying why do women cheat more? Or-

Lewis Howes 9:30 I'm saying who, who, who cheats more-

Sadia Khan 9:33 Yeah

Lewis Howes 9:33 ... based on your experience of-

Matthew Hussey 9:34 Right

Sadia Khan 9:34 Yeah

Lewis Howes 9:35 ... conversations you're having and what you're noticing.

Matthew Hussey 9:37 Right. What are you thinking about why women cheat more?

Sadia Khan 9:39 Um, I am, in my-

Matthew Hussey 9:40 If that's true. I don't know

Sadia Khan 9:41 ... in my personal experience with the women that do cheat, it's not that all women cheat, but the women that do cheat, it's very little to do with the woman herself. It's more to do with the man she selects.

Matthew Hussey 9:49 Really?

Sadia Khan 9:49 The, yeah. In my experience, I can look at a couple and tell by the man if she's going to cheat. Where the men and her have a very strong dynamic, where it's very clear that they know each other inside out, and where they can be to, it- themselves completely, and more so than anything I can tell she feels safe in his company, it's unlikely she cheats. Yeah? It's, uh, but where I feel like she's the, kind of the boss, or she feels like she doesn't respect his opinion, and it, it's not necessarily she's just like... He's kinda allowed himself to take that backseat. Where she can disrespect him openly, where she feels like she can tell him anything and he just instantly believes it and follows her commands, it sets him in a position where she doesn't have a fear of losing him. And as a result of no fear of losing him, there's an openness to try alternatives because she knows if worst-case scenario he finds out, he's still gonna stay. And that's where-

Matthew Hussey 10:37 It's a d- it's a fairly dismal view of people-

Sadia Khan 10:41 I know

Matthew Hussey 10:41 ... you've just put forward.

Lewis Howes 10:42 Well, unless they-

Sadia Khan 10:43 Yeah

Lewis Howes 10:43 ... unless they are-

Sadia Khan 10:43 I agree

Matthew Hussey 10:44 Because what we're saying is that this-

Lewis Howes 10:45 Unless they don't have values within themselves.

Matthew Hussey 10:46 Right. I, th-

Sadia Khan 10:47 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 10:47 ... the thing that's missing from this-

Lewis Howes 10:48 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Matthew Hussey 10:48 ... conversation is values on the men's and the women's side, is that it's kind of the, you know, the idea there with women is that they're, that if they, if they don't respect their man, they'll cheat, as opposed to they'll cheat-

Lewis Howes 10:59 If they lack the values

Matthew Hussey 11:00 ... if they lack the values.

Lewis Howes 11:01 Yeah.

Sadia Khan 11:01 Mm. I-

Matthew Hussey 11:01 That prevent someone from cheating

Sadia Khan 11:02 ... but I would s- imagine their values, um, determines what they select in the process. When you don't h- when you have those values that open you up to sex, you tend to select people who have a kind of agreeableness that allows for that. And I would say the same for men. Men who know they have a propensity to cheat are probably not gonna select a very strong-minded woman who will say, "Absolutely not. I, I will walk away if this happens." They tend to cheat, uh, select, I think their values combine, it affects their selection process.

Lewis Howes 11:29 Yes.

Sadia Khan 11:29 And so they-

Matthew Hussey 11:30 True

Sadia Khan 11:30 ... select a more agreeable and less secure individual to begin with.

Matthew Hussey 11:33 But you must know, but pl- I know plenty of very strong women-

Sadia Khan 11:36 Mm

Matthew Hussey 11:36 ... who have been cheated on.

Sadia Khan 11:37 Yeah. Um, I do. I do know plenty of strong women who've been s- um, cheated on. But in the process of being cheated on, there's, at the time of selection, they weren't strong.

Matthew Hussey 11:45 Mm.

Sadia Khan 11:46 I would say that there's something in this, uh, most people who've been severely hurt, look, cheating is not something that makes you an evil person. I have to put it out there. I personally have never cheated, but I, I'm not saying this as a moral high ground. I don't see it as an evil trait. I just see it as a misbehavior. Some people are cheaters and have terrible other traits. It's just an addition. Some people are driven in a desperate state or whatever it is. But when you've been severely hurt by somebody, you have to look at the day you selected them. Chances are, if you select somebody who's very difficult and treats you badly, and then on top of that cheats, the day you selected them, you were not in a secure place at some point.

Matthew Hussey 12:20 I don't know if I can, if I can buy that. I, uh, y- that may be true for some, but I just-

Lewis Howes 12:24 Or maybe you didn't ask all the right questions.

Sadia Khan 12:26 Yeah, or-

Lewis Howes 12:26 You didn't get all the information you needed

Sadia Khan 12:27 ... the signs that-

Matthew Hussey 12:28 This is, but, but I, I think there is a kind of, um- You know, there are plenty of people who wind up with people who end up treating them very poorly-

Sadia Khan 12:40 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 12:40 ... where there was just m- the, the, you know, they just could not have s- foreseen that this person was-

Sadia Khan 12:48 I always argue the opposite. I say humans, we're ... Nobody lies. And the reason I say-

Lewis Howes 12:54 Nobody lies?

Sadia Khan 12:54 Nobody lies. And the reason I say that is verbally we can all lie. I can sit here and tell you I'm a blonde. But you can, you as a human being are responsible for assessing whether my words and behaviors align.

Matthew Hussey 13:04 Right. But I don't know if you're gonna cheat on me in five years.

Sadia Khan 13:07 I, I personally-

Matthew Hussey 13:08 I can't-

Sadia Khan 13:09 I-

Matthew Hussey 13:09 I can't go into a relationship going, "I know for sure you won't cheat on me in five years." And if by the, by the rationale that you said men cheat in relationships, which is that they essentially feel like they've put in their service-

Sadia Khan 13:21 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 13:21 ... like they're in the army, and they've done their time-

Sadia Khan 13:23 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 13:24 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 13:24 And, and, you know, at that point they feel like, "God, you know what? I really feel entitled to an escort or two at this stage."

Sadia Khan 13:30 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 13:30 It, it, that, that ... By that rationale you couldn't have seen it with that guy, because back when he was putting in his service he was a totally committed man.

Sadia Khan 13:38 I would say that even with men, I would say there's a couple of things. I would say that it's not that I can ... Even with my own husband, I can't ... It's not that I know for sure he's gonna cheat or not cheat, but you know when somebody has a propensity. And how you know they have a proce- propensity is chances are most cheaters have cheated in the past, and they've told you something. They've told you something. They won't tell you directly, but they might give you hints where they might say, "Oh, and we weren't working out, and so towards the end I met somebody, and towards ..." They'll use that common phrase, towards the end. Or they might say ... Or you might just notice that they are a hypersexual. They need that as a form of connection all the time, so if you deprive them of that, they might ... The key thing is you gotta know what people are like in terms of what they do when they're at their worst. If you've noticed at their worst they can be emotionally abusive, at their worst they can be cheaters, they kinda show you that in the courting stage before marriage.

Matthew Hussey 14:26 Sure. But someone can be hypersexual and just be great sex in a relationship. How are you to know that hypersexual means they're gonna have an inability to be monogamous versus they've just got a very high sex drive that's gonna make for a great sex life in a relationship?

Sadia Khan 14:38 Because if I, if I deprive them of that, their,

Sadia Khan 14:41 that hypersexuality's not gonna go anywhere. So I know that if I am dealing with somebody hypersexual, no problem, but I have to understand with their hypersexuality means when, if and when I deprive them of that, I open a door. Similarly, I might be hyper- ... I'm a hyperemotional, I'm hyper-clingy, all those things. Luckily my partner's very kind of responsive. If he deprives me of that thing that I was very clear to him from day one, chances are, God forbid, who knows? Something might happen. It's when you deprive people what they seek-

Matthew Hussey 15:08 But you're letting people off the hook so easily.

Sadia Khan 15:10 Really?

Matthew Hussey 15:11 Yeah. Because if your husband wasn't giving you attention or time or whatever, I would assume that there would be 200 conversations that would happen-

Sadia Khan 15:20 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 15:20 ... prior to you deciding, "I'm gonna go off and get with a bloke on the side."

Sadia Khan 15:24 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 15:25 Uh, uh, the same is true the other way around. If, if you-

Lewis Howes 15:27 He may not cheat. He might just end it.

Sadia Khan 15:27 You may not cheat.

Lewis Howes 15:28 He might just end it.

Sadia Khan 15:29 I'm personally not a cheater.

Matthew Hussey 15:30 But what I'm saying is-

Sadia Khan 15:30 Yeah. So I understand

Matthew Hussey 15:31 ... if, if, if we're taking the guy you're talking about that's hypersexual, and the woman who hasn't had sex with him for a period of time-

Sadia Khan 15:39 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 15:39 ... there's nothing that excuses the inability to have the 100 conversations that need to happen-

Lewis Howes 15:46 Well, that's what most people don't do

Matthew Hussey 15:47 ... in the middle

Sadia Khan 15:48 I would, I would love if that was true

Lewis Howes 15:49 Most people don't have those con- That's what you're saying

Sadia Khan 15:50 I would love for that to be true

Matthew Hussey 15:52 But what I take issue with is not, not calling out. It's, it's almost like a calling out of the person who's not had sex with the person-

Sadia Khan 15:59 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 15:59 ... as opposed to calling out the person who's not having the conversations.

Sadia Khan 16:02 Because here-

Lewis Howes 16:03 That's what, you know-

Sadia Khan 16:03 Yeah. I understand what you mean, but here's the thing. When we get into relationships with people it comes with conditions. Nobody's unconditional. Now, we sign an imaginary contract that I've seen the needs you have, you've seen the needs I have. We naturally expect our partners to guess our needs. If people are naturally ... We're in a very, all praise be to God, privileged position where we understand the importance of communication. The average person who's never done any self-help or who's never done anything will interpret, "My wife doesn't have sex with me, she doesn't love me." They're not thinking, "I need to vocalize this." Similarly, a woman saying, "My man's never complimented me," do I tell him I want more compliments, or do I go with the guy at work who would naturally compliments me? Human nature is flawed. So instead ... I get it's totally wrong. It's not a justification. It's more just understanding that ideally we should have these conversations. Ideally we should be emotionally articulate. Un- realistically, it doesn't happen. So the best thing we can do is select people who are, values naturally align with us.

Matthew Hussey 16:58 At least-

Sadia Khan 16:58 And people show us our values quite early on.

Matthew Hussey 17:01 But based on what you've just said, I would say the best thing we can do is, is partner with a good communicator.

Sadia Khan 17:06 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 17:07 Not partner with someone that we just hope to God we always meet their values-

Sadia Khan 17:10 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 17:10 ... 'cause they can't communicate, and if we ever don't meet them-

Sadia Khan 17:13 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 17:13 ... they're gonna be running-

Sadia Khan 17:14 I would agree

Matthew Hussey 17:14 ... to somebody else.

Sadia Khan 17:15 I would agree

Lewis Howes 17:15 Well, that's why so many people break up, is because they get into a relationship without communicating their true values-

Sadia Khan 17:20 Yeah

Lewis Howes 17:20 ... and who they truly are.

Sadia Khan 17:21 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 17:21 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 17:21 And they get together based on attraction or based on common likes and interests, so-

Matthew Hussey 17:25 My, my greatest fear early on in meeting someone would always be if we can't have conversations.

Lewis Howes 17:32 Really?

Sadia Khan 17:32 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 17:32 If ... Because the ... You know, if you take, uh, if you take, you know, a version of what you're talking about that I think shows up in early dating is ghosting.

Sadia Khan 17:42 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 17:42 Right? What is ghosting? I,

Matthew Hussey 17:44 I've decided I don't want you anymore-

Sadia Khan 17:46 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 17:46 ... or I'm not getting my needs met in some way-

Lewis Howes 17:48 Without communicating it

Matthew Hussey 17:48 ... or whatever.

Sadia Khan 17:49 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 17:49 And I do the ultimate in not communicating, I just disappear.

Sadia Khan 17:52 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 17:53 Um, and when that happens, it's w- you know, we, what we have, if someone in front of us who cannot communicate.

Sadia Khan 18:03 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 18:03 So the answer to that to me isn't how, you know, how do I figure out how to make sure I do everything right next time so that I don't get ghosted.

Sadia Khan 18:13 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 18:14 The answer is, how do I make sure that I pre-select for the kind of person that when things get difficult or when they don't get their needs met-

Sadia Khan 18:21 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 18:21 ... has a conversation with me instead of just disappears off the face of the earth?

Sadia Khan 18:24 Yeah. But have you not seen in your practice sometimes some people have never done, like never cheat or anything like that, but something in this relationship or something has triggered them and they become a person they don't recognize? But I do agree, it's m- down to poor communication, 'cause every need can be communicated. But do you think i- it is just a character flaw, or do you think it's a flaw in the dynamic of the relationship? Or have you been-

Matthew Hussey 18:46 If someone cheats?

Sadia Khan 18:46 Yeah Or have you been in relationships where that person I could have cheated on, this person I can never think of doing? Do you think it's a dynamic? For me personally, I would say it's more of a character thing because I, I've got religious beliefs and blah, blah.

Matthew Hussey 18:57 But I do think that-

Sadia Khan 18:58 But I do think most people it's a dynamic thing rather than a character thing.

Matthew Hussey 19:01 I mean, I don't think the rest of the world needs religious beliefs-

Sadia Khan 19:04 Mm

Matthew Hussey 19:04 ... to have that character thing.

Sadia Khan 19:06 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 19:06 I think that's a, you know, the golden rule is enough.

Sadia Khan 19:09 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 19:09 [laughs] I-

Sadia Khan 19:09 But do you think it's everybody has that or do you think it's a dynamic in the relationship that can ignite a different character?

Matthew Hussey 19:16 I, I think people are... I, look, I think people are capable of all sorts of things and we have to, you know, there's of course there's a place for real life. And I'm not someone who says, you know, if someone cheats that's an unforgivable-

Sadia Khan 19:30 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 19:30 ... sin. That's up to the person who's-

Sadia Khan 19:32 Who's, yeah-

Matthew Hussey 19:33 ... in a relationship with them

Sadia Khan 19:34 ... on the receiving end. Yeah

Matthew Hussey 19:34 ... whether they wanna forgive that or not. And certainly the person who cheats is gonna have to learn how to forgive themselves-

Sadia Khan 19:40 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 19:40 ... otherwise they're gonna have a miserable-

Lewis Howes 19:41 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 19:41 ... life afterwards. [laughs]

Sadia Khan 19:42 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 19:42 Um, so I, but I do, I do think what protects us in relationships is the values that we have, the character that we have. Um-

Sadia Khan 19:53 And do you think it's on us to select people with that right character or just expect them to have that character once we've selected them?

Matthew Hussey 19:59 Oh, it's up, up to h- 100%-

Sadia Khan 20:00 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 20:00 ... up to us to select people-

Sadia Khan 20:02 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 20:02 ... with that character, to, to look for, you know, beyond attraction and say, "How does this person show up on difficult days?"

Sadia Khan 20:08 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 20:09 How, how, how do they show up when they're not getting what they want whenever they want? How do they show up when, you know, I'm, I happen to be the one today who needs more than I can give?

Sadia Khan 20:19 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 20:20 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 20:20 Um-

Sadia Khan 20:21 How do they show up when their needs are deprived for a while?

Lewis Howes 20:23 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 20:24 C- 100%.

Sadia Khan 20:24 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 20:24 And, and those, and that ability to communicate is, that's where trust comes from. And I, I think the reason I'm pointing this out is because I think the, it would be a, it would be a frightening fate to be with someone where your trust-

Sadia Khan 20:38 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 20:38 ... is based on making sure you're always meeting their needs-

Sadia Khan 20:43 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 20:43 ... no matter what, not in their ability to communicate-

Sadia Khan 20:47 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 20:47 ... if their not, needs aren't being met.

Sadia Khan 20:49 I agree.

Matthew Hussey 20:49 You know, trust has to come from you will communicate with me if-

Sadia Khan 20:53 You know

Matthew Hussey 20:53 ... your needs aren't being met.

Lewis Howes 20:54 Yes.

Matthew Hussey 20:55 And of course there will be l- there's gonna be consequences

Matthew Hussey 20:59 at some point if you keep communicating with me that your needs aren't being met, and I don't take that seriously, there are gonna be of course consequences to the relationship. If nothing else, you might leave.

Sadia Khan 21:09 And what do we do? Because, look, I, I have this very candid conversations with men about this, you know, sexual deprivation-

Lewis Howes 21:15 Mm

Sadia Khan 21:15 ... which tends to be a driving force in a lot of people's cheating. And even me being on the therapeutic end of it, even I'm surprised at how important it is to them, and even I'm uncomfortable with the information and it's not directly at me. What advice would you give to women in receiving this very brutal kind of conversations that men may be secretly wanting to have, but they know it's not socially acceptable, they know it's not gonna be the nicest way to s- tell a woman? I'm saying this as a somebody where it's not even about me-

Lewis Howes 21:42 [laughs]

Sadia Khan 21:43 ... and even I leave going like, "Oh, God. Is this what men really..." So is it-

Matthew Hussey 21:46 What's not acceptable about it?

Lewis Howes 21:47 Like communicating what you want sexually?

Sadia Khan 21:49 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 21:49 Or like-

Sadia Khan 21:50 Or like how, or the frequency or-

Matthew Hussey 21:51 I mean, I, look, I would-

Lewis Howes 21:51 I would say-

Matthew Hussey 21:51 ... I would look at that and I would argue that that's a guy who's not been himself for a long time-

Sadia Khan 21:56 Mm.

Lewis Howes 21:56 Right, right

Matthew Hussey 21:56 ... or maybe ever.

Sadia Khan 21:57 Right.

Matthew Hussey 21:57 Because how, why is a, why would a person find out 10 years into a marriage you're a freak?

Sadia Khan 22:02 [laughs] Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 22:03 Seriously.

Lewis Howes 22:03 Because someone's ashamed of it.

Sadia Khan 22:05 Shame.

Matthew Hussey 22:05 Right. And that's my point.

Sadia Khan 22:05 'Cause of sexual shame. Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 22:06 That's not on her.

Sadia Khan 22:08 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 22:08 That's on the-

Lewis Howes 22:08 It, it-

Matthew Hussey 22:08 That's on the, that's on her-

Lewis Howes 22:09 It's on her to ask the right questions though.

Sadia Khan 22:11 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 22:11 I mean, maybe, but it's, it's ... We have to take ... Uh, just as we wouldn't say, if we were talking about it the other way round, we wouldn't say it's his job to ask every right question to understand everything about her. It's not his job to be a mind reader.

Sadia Khan 22:24 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 22:24 It's her job to make sure that she communicates the blueprint for what really turns her on, what makes her excited, what makes her happy.

Sadia Khan 22:32 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 22:32 That no one should be asked to be a mind reader in a relationship. And also if it, you don't just communicate verbally, how do you end up, how does someone know within six months of dating you that you are a very, like you've got a lot of kinks sexually?

Sadia Khan 22:46 Right.

Matthew Hussey 22:46 You try them.

Sadia Khan 22:47 Yeah, true.

Matthew Hussey 22:47 You start, like you, you-

Sadia Khan 22:49 You have

Matthew Hussey 22:49 ... start to bring some of them in and you see if you have a part, a, a, an active, a, you know, a willing audience. But that's, that's something someone should find out at that point.

Sadia Khan 22:58 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 22:58 We've not been being ourselves for a long time-

Lewis Howes 23:00 Right

Matthew Hussey 23:00 ... if we're saying years into a marriage, "God, how do I communicate these things that I really wanna do-

Sadia Khan 23:05 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 23:05 ... to my partner?"

Sadia Khan 23:06 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 23:06 You gotta communicate early on.

Matthew Hussey 23:07 And to answer your question, I think that the woman in that situation or the man in that situation frankly, because I hear from a lot of women who say, "God, I wanna do things with my man that he's unable to talk about."

Sadia Khan 23:17 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 23:18 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 23:18 Um, it, you know, I think that's, that's true on both sides.

Sadia Khan 23:21 Both sides.

Matthew Hussey 23:21 The number of women who get disillusioned in their sex life because they're like, "God, my man won't show up in the adventurous ways that I want."

Sadia Khan 23:27 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 23:27 "I, I'm enjoy- I want-"

Sadia Khan 23:28 So it happens both ways. [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 23:29 Oh my God, the number of women that are like, "I really wanna do this kinky thing over here, and he's just not into it, or I'm afraid because I feel he'll judge me for it," that's huge. I, I think we have to have a partner that if we're the partner on the receiving end of that information, what we have to be is brave.

Sadia Khan 23:46 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 23:46 Yes.

Matthew Hussey 23:47 Because what f- we receive it as is a threat.

Sadia Khan 23:49 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 23:50 It's y- "I'm not good enough for you. I'm not ... Y- y- you're, you want something other than me."

Sadia Khan 23:55 You're not attracted to me. Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 23:56 "You want something else that I can't give you."

Sadia Khan 23:59 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 23:59 "You want ... You know, you're having all of these fantasies a- away from me. You're watching porn. How dare you? You're thinking about other women."

Sadia Khan 24:05 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 24:05 And it's

Matthew Hussey 24:06 like missing the headline.

Sadia Khan 24:07 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 24:07 The headline is, your partner trusted you and the relationship enough-

Sadia Khan 24:12 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 24:13 ... to bring this to you-

Lewis Howes 24:14 Mm

Matthew Hussey 24:15 ... and to have this conversation with you. And be, and it takes some bravery. It's not easy, but it takes some bravery to say, "Well, they're trusting me with this information, and it's interesting information. It's actually, if I can get past my ego, this is valuable information."

Sadia Khan 24:30 It's an insight. Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 24:32 Yeah. And this, if I, if I can start to be brave, which will require me to break my own patterns, because if they really wanna ... If they want me to show up like this in the bedroom, I'm gonna have to get a little uncomfortable because I've been showing up in my comfort zone for the last 10 years.

Sadia Khan 24:46 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 24:46 I have to, I'm gonna have to grow here. I'm gonna have to, like, bring a different energy. That takes bravery and it takes a growth mindset, it really does, and- If we don't have those two things, then s- when someone brings something to us, we're gonna get defensive-

Sadia Khan 25:00 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 25:00 ... or shame them or judge them for it, and then of course you're creating... Th- then you're h- really hurting the relationship.

Sadia Khan 25:07 But you know, in my personal experience when clients do come to me when they have had some level of betrayal, I always ask, "What was, what was your relationship like before the marriage? What happened before the, a, a relationship got serious?" And 99% of the time, the person showed them that they have the capability to have two simultaneous connections at the same time. They either stole that person from an ex, that person was either dating somebody else, they knew that person was already married. There's always some signal that s- is there somewhere along the way. It's more when the childhood sweethearts and they turn out together and th- that comes out of the blue, or when somebody's lived a double life. But majority of the time, most people when I ask them, "What happened in before you got married?" They'll be able to tell you-

Lewis Howes 25:48 On why you cheat, why there was a cheating maybe, or what?

Sadia Khan 25:49 When the, when the, ended because of a betrayal-

Lewis Howes 25:52 Uh-huh

Sadia Khan 25:52 ... I always ask, "Was there anything before marriage that signaled this person has the propensity to have two simultaneous connections?" Nine times out of 10, there's always something. So-

Lewis Howes 26:01 One of the main things, that, that he was in another relationship, or-

Sadia Khan 26:03 In other simultaneous relationships, or the person just never was single. They went from one person to another person to another person, then they were using you as a numbing cream to get over the last person. Or there was inconsistencies in the truth. They weren't telling you the truth in a lot of times. You caught them in a lot of lies, and you forgave every lie. You forgave a lot of cheating in the past. You thought that is done and dusted before marriage. So the reason why I put all the accountability on the person rather than the actual cheat is I always say there's-

Lewis Howes 26:28 The person who was cheated on.

Sadia Khan 26:30 Yeah, I always put, myself included. And the reason I put even my own accountability on, on there is because I'm very aware that there's thieves everywhere, but I lock my doors. I do it on purpose. If I leave my doors unlocked, I can't be totally blindsided if something's stolen. Similarly, when I'm selecting a partner and they've... I've seen these major flags before marriage, but because I love them or because they're given a, a r- a, a green light because I'm so attached to them and I've chosen to ignore it, then I can't be totally the victim in the situation. I was a, a voluntary participant. And the reason I say this is so many times when people do have the betrayal and the marriage is

Sadia Khan 27:06 over, they'll say, "Oh yeah, in the beginning he used to do this. I should've known in the be-" They always refer to the beginning stages of the relationship where-

Lewis Howes 27:12 They did know

Sadia Khan 27:13 ... there was something that they knew.

Lewis Howes 27:14 Right, right.

Sadia Khan 27:15 It's not-

Lewis Howes 27:15 But they chose to, like-

Sadia Khan 27:16 They never come-

Lewis Howes 27:16 ... hope or wish that they would change, or maybe they're not gonna be this way in the future or-

Sadia Khan 27:20 Same thing with any abuse

Lewis Howes 27:21 ... give them a second chance or-

Sadia Khan 27:21 Similar, same thing with abuse. They never come to me and just say, "Yesterday this happened." They'll say-

Lewis Howes 27:26 Physical or emotional abuse? Or-

Sadia Khan 27:27 Yeah. You know, abuse and as cheating, they never say, "Yesterday this started." They say, "They've always did this and I n- gave them another chance. They said they would stop. They promised me they would change." Those sentences come up so much suggesting that this person showed you something.

Matthew Hussey 27:41 But I think that the, the reason I co- when I hear this, it really, I struggle with it.

Sadia Khan 27:47 Is it?

Matthew Hussey 27:48 It's not because anyone who knows me knows for me, like, I'm as close to, like, extreme ownership as you'll get. And as a person, I wanna own the ability to change anything in my life. So I'm not someone who... I'm not a, you know, complainer in life-

Sadia Khan 28:08 Blame the world kind of person, yeah

Matthew Hussey 28:09 ... but yeah, that's not me. But, but the reality of so many relationships is that there are people who are extremely convincing. There are people who are extremely, um... Their ability to, uh, to brainwash you into something you never thought you would-

Sadia Khan 28:32 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 28:32 ... be capable of accepting. The ability to have your reality distorted-

Sadia Khan 28:37 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 28:38 ... over time, um, it is, it is profound, and it is humbling, and everyone thinks it could never happen to them-

Sadia Khan 28:46 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 28:46 Right. Yeah

Matthew Hussey 28:46 ... until it happens to them. And then you go, "Oh my God, how? How did I allow that for so long?"

Lewis Howes 28:52 Yeah.

Sadia Khan 28:52 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 28:53 True.

Matthew Hussey 28:53 And, and it's, I feel it's important because, forgive me if I'm misreading you-

Sadia Khan 28:59 No, no, no. You, I'm sure you're right

Matthew Hussey 29:00 ... but it feels like for you, the headline is, it was your fault. And for me, the headline is, this was them. Y- at some point in the process of helping you, let's definitely get to the question of what's, what was happening in you that allowed you to turn a blind eye to this for so long, or ignore those signs when they came up, and let's do that work because we need to make sure that no one can ever get in in this way again. But to me, the headline, the, the, the only way to heal is to start from a place of what was done was wrong.

Lewis Howes 29:41 Yes.

Matthew Hussey 29:41 It was them. It was their character.

Sadia Khan 29:44 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 29:44 It, it was disgraceful, and that we are someone that that was done to.

Sadia Khan 29:52 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 29:53 That doesn't mean we can't change it, and it doesn't mean we can't get out. It doesn't mean we can't change the way we approach these things in the future. But I just worry that someone listening to this would think that the headline is, "It's my fault"-

Lewis Howes 30:06 Right

Matthew Hussey 30:06 ... as opposed to the headline is, "This person revealed who they are, showed their character, and, and did something really, really wrong that you deserve compassion for."

Lewis Howes 30:18 I think you're both right, and I, first of all-

Sadia Khan 30:19 Uh, yeah

Lewis Howes 30:19 ... first of all adding that-

Sadia Khan 30:20 I'm really glad that you're saying this because I'm sure this is what people in the comments are probably fe- reaching to say, so I'm glad that I'm hearing it.

Lewis Howes 30:25 Here's what, here's what I'm adding here, because I can, I can relate to, like, both things. Like, okay, here are the signs that I saw even though, and this thing happened later. I'm responsible because I did see signs.

Sadia Khan 30:38 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 30:39 But also, they did something horrible, and it is their fault. So I think it's a both/and.

Sadia Khan 30:44 Combination. I would-

Lewis Howes 30:45 And I think it's, it's-

Sadia Khan 30:46 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 30:46 ... and what I could say now is like-

Sadia Khan 30:49 Can both of those be true? It's-

Lewis Howes 30:50 I think they, I think they-

Sadia Khan 30:51 Yeah

Lewis Howes 30:51 ... can both be true. And what I can say like from a, seeing it from a different perspective now, where I feel like I'm in a healthier place, uh, in my own

Lewis Howes 30:59 relationship- ... is that when I entered my relationship, you know, with Martha, I entered it from a place of, "I don't need this relationship."

Sadia Khan 31:08 Mm.

Lewis Howes 31:08 Not that I like, "Screw you, I don't care if this works out or not," but, "I don't need this. I'm not anxious to make sure this happens." As we started to get to know each other, I was like, "I want this to happen if we're in alignment on our values."

Sadia Khan 31:21 Uh-huh.

Lewis Howes 31:21 "If we're not, then I, I wish you the best."

Sadia Khan 31:24 Uh-huh.

Lewis Howes 31:24 "But I'm not gonna enter something if the values are not aligned for both of us because then we're just gonna... It's gonna be too much friction. It's gonna be so hard work. It's not gonna be enjoyable for either of us." And therefore, in the dating process with Martha, there was never an inconsistency with her words and her actions-

Sadia Khan 31:41 Uh-huh

Lewis Howes 31:41 ... based on her values.

Sadia Khan 31:43 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 31:43 And so I was able to see words, actions.

Sadia Khan 31:46 The values.

Lewis Howes 31:46 They matched.

Sadia Khan 31:46 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 31:47 And she was able to see that with me.

Sadia Khan 31:49 Uh-huh.

Lewis Howes 31:49 And that means we both had to be extremely communicative to each other. We both had to be courageous with each other on our wants, our needs, the things we don't like, and speak those things early on-

Sadia Khan 32:00 Yeah

Lewis Howes 32:01 ... uh, in risking someone, the other person not wanting to be with each other.

Sadia Khan 32:05 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 32:05 Right? And I think because we entered in that way, it feels healthier. Now, it doesn't mean, like, everything's gonna be perfect and work out for, you know, the rest of our lives or whatever, but it feels like I can fully see who she is.

Sadia Khan 32:18 Uh-huh.

Lewis Howes 32:19 And if she did something, sure, it would be out of character, that would be hurtful, but I'm also okay as well.

Sadia Khan 32:27 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 32:27 And, and also, another side note here is, like... I just f- yeah, I mean, I, I love that you both share this-

Sadia Khan 32:36 [laughs] Th-

Lewis Howes 32:36 ... point of view because-

Sadia Khan 32:36 Because I agree. My headline is-

Lewis Howes 32:38 Uh-huh

Sadia Khan 32:38 ... It's Your Fault, and I really-

Lewis Howes 32:39 Yeah

Sadia Khan 32:39 ... stand by that. And the-

Lewis Howes 32:40 The person who was, like, cheated on-

Sadia Khan 32:41 I, yeah, it d-

Lewis Howes 32:42 Well, you also see... The, the f- finished thought here is-

Sadia Khan 32:44 Yeah

Lewis Howes 32:44 ... you also hear this. When women go through a divorce-

Sadia Khan 32:49 Yeah

Lewis Howes 32:49 ... and you ask them this question, "On your wedding day, when you were walking down the aisle, did you have a feeling like something was off?" Most people would say, "Something was off."

Sadia Khan 32:59 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 32:59 Some people might say, "No, everything was perfect."

Sadia Khan 33:01 "It's the happiest day." Yeah.

Lewis Howes 33:02 "It was perfect, and, like, I had no signs."

Sadia Khan 33:04 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 33:04 But it's like, were you really also asking the tough questions?

Sadia Khan 33:08 That's-

Lewis Howes 33:08 Maybe you were.

Sadia Khan 33:09 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 33:09 But did you ask all these different questions?

Sadia Khan 33:11 Or did you just wanna be with that p- and that's why I would stand by that.

Lewis Howes 33:14 But, but, I'm not saying it's your fault-

Sadia Khan 33:15 Yeah, yeah

Lewis Howes 33:15 ... if somebody got cheated on.

Matthew Hussey 33:15 But haven't neither of you-

Lewis Howes 33:16 I'm not saying that's it

Matthew Hussey 33:17 ... haven't, have neither of you ever had a personal relationship, a friendship-

Sadia Khan 33:23 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 33:23 ... or a business relationship that, that really caught you off guard-

Sadia Khan 33:28 Person-

Matthew Hussey 33:29 ... when someone didn't show up and you thought, "God, that was a day where I really thought they'd show up for me," and they didn't-

Lewis Howes 33:35 Yes

Matthew Hussey 33:35 ... and it really caught you off guard?

Sadia Khan 33:36 I, that's never happened to m-

Lewis Howes 33:36 But one way-

Matthew Hussey 33:37 So was it-

Sadia Khan 33:37 I've always known

Lewis Howes 33:38 ... one way to look back and be like, "Oh, there might have been some signals."

Sadia Khan 33:39 There were signs.

Matthew Hussey 33:41 Right, but that's-

Lewis Howes 33:41 There might have been

Matthew Hussey 33:41 ... that, fine.

Sadia Khan 33:42 There were signs.

Matthew Hussey 33:42 But it's incredibly lack-

Lewis Howes 33:43 But you have hope that wish they would

Matthew Hussey 33:44 ... but it's so lacking in self-compassion-

Sadia Khan 33:46 No, but h- here's, and-

Matthew Hussey 33:47 ... to go straight to, "And therefore it's my fault."

Sadia Khan 33:49 But h- here-

Lewis Howes 33:49 It's not, maybe it's your fault-

Sadia Khan 33:50 It's-

Lewis Howes 33:50 ... if they don't show up for you.

Sadia Khan 33:51 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 33:51 I'm like, it's your fault-

Sadia Khan 33:51 But it's also for having the wrong expectations and the wrong... Here's what I would say. I definitely stand by it's your fault in life with everything. Your weight is your fault. Your, your, your income-

Lewis Howes 34:01 It's your responsibility

Sadia Khan 34:02 ... is your, everything is your responsibility. I'm one on the extreme.

Matthew Hussey 34:04 Those are different thi- those are different things.

Sadia Khan 34:05 Yeah, I know. I-

Matthew Hussey 34:05 Fault and responsibility are very different things.

Sadia Khan 34:07 I understand, yeah.

Lewis Howes 34:07 But some people-

Sadia Khan 34:08 So-

Lewis Howes 34:08 ... you know, some people say it's your consequence, which is, like, a positive way.

Sadia Khan 34:11 It's a consequence of choices.

Lewis Howes 34:12 It's like the consequence of choice.

Matthew Hussey 34:13 Right, but that-

Sadia Khan 34:14 And even in a-

Matthew Hussey 34:15 ... but consequence, consequence doesn't...

Matthew Hussey 34:18 I- I- To, to connect all of that with fault is a, it's a strange connection-

Sadia Khan 34:23 I-

Matthew Hussey 34:23 ... to make in a lot of cases.

Sadia Khan 34:25 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 34:25 Responsibility makes sense always.

Sadia Khan 34:28 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 34:28 Wherever I am today, me taking responsibility-

Sadia Khan 34:30 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 34:30 ... for making-

Lewis Howes 34:31 Yes

Matthew Hussey 34:31 ... my life better always and forever makes sense.

Sadia Khan 34:33 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 34:34 But I find the, the tr- worrying, spending this time worrying about where to point the finger-

Sadia Khan 34:40 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 34:41 ... to be, uh, quite unproductive and also completely devoid of self-compassion. And it is absolutely true that there are people who we may have seen on a lower level-

Sadia Khan 34:55 Uh-huh

Matthew Hussey 34:56 ... some inconsistency this, in their behavior, or we may have seen some things that we didn't love. It is anyone who spends a lot of time in narcissistic relationships-

Lewis Howes 35:07 Yes, yes

Matthew Hussey 35:07 ... will tell you that the ways that someone was able to shock them-

Sadia Khan 35:13 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 35:14 ... on when things really hit the fan-

Sadia Khan 35:17 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 35:17 ... could, w- the, the traj- there wasn't some steady trajectory to, like, low level-

Sadia Khan 35:24 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 35:24 ... grievances to, "I had cancer and they wouldn't drive me to the hospital."

Sadia Khan 35:28 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 35:28 No one know, until they're, they're in that place-

Sadia Khan 35:31 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 35:32 ... no one knows who that person is gonna be.

Sadia Khan 35:33 I, I would disagree with that, and I would highly disagree with that because very few people who maintain promises then don't show up when you're in the hospital for cancer. So when I'm go- My husband, one of the reasons why I'm so attached and why I selected is because I never experienced a canceled date. I never experienced late. It was never a case where he'd say, "I'm coming at 3:00." He'd come at 5:00. Never. And I remember there would never be a canceled date. So when you're dealing with that person, and then I went into hospital for cancer and he didn't turn up, then I can honestly say, "Well, this may not be my fault," or, "There's been such a change in his character that I haven't paid attention to. Maybe recently he has been breaking promises, but this is just the final one that I paid attention to." So I would still take onus on that. The reason why I think self-compassion should be replaced with self-responsibility is being compassionate with yourself will allow you to think that you are a victim to other people who are just terrible, but when you realize that selection is more important in, in determining your outcomes than any other factor, you'll be more cautious of selection.

Matthew Hussey 36:37 I'm truly shocked-

Sadia Khan 36:39 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 36:40 ... to hear you say that self-compassion isn't the answer.

Sadia Khan 36:43 No, I don't believe that.

Matthew Hussey 36:44 I'm sh- that sh- I find that shocking.

Lewis Howes 36:46 What is, what is your definition of self-responsibility versus self-compassion?

Sadia Khan 36:49 I think self-compassion is forgiving yourself for your mistakes, but not ignoring you made the mistakes. So what I mean by self-compassion, it's my fault. Everything in life is my fault. I might think that mentality-

Matthew Hussey 37:00 Respons- you mean, you mean responsibility-

Sadia Khan 37:01 But I forgive myself

Matthew Hussey 37:01 ... or fault? I mean-

Sadia Khan 37:02 But I forgive myself is a... But the other alternative is, "It's not my fault. It's all them, and I'm, I just need to fix myself."

Matthew Hussey 37:09 Sure, sure.

Sadia Khan 37:10 I forgive myself.

Matthew Hussey 37:10 Okay, let's just take this 'cause-

Sadia Khan 37:11 Yeah [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 37:12 ... th- you have to believe that there are situations that people are in that are not their fault.

Sadia Khan 37:16 I, I do.

Matthew Hussey 37:17 You have, you... I, I can't imagine that you would say A teenager who goes through abuse, it's their fault

Sadia Khan 37:23 I would, I would say that, look, outside of your ad- your parents and your siblings, most people are self-selection. And of course, your environment can help that with that selection as well. But the, uh, I-

Matthew Hussey 37:34 Or okay, let's take the adult that goes through, um, a abuse that they couldn't have seen coming.

Sadia Khan 37:39 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 37:39 That's their fault?

Sadia Khan 37:40 Uh, can you give me an example? Is it like a parent that's abusing them?

Matthew Hussey 37:43 No, a partner.

Lewis Howes 37:44 Relationship. Relationship.

Matthew Hussey 37:45 A relationship.

Sadia Khan 37:45 But, uh, here-

Matthew Hussey 37:46 Someone they, they're on date three with

Sadia Khan 37:47 ... here's

Sadia Khan 37:48 the thing. The, the gun that's holding you to that relationship is your own self-esteem.

Matthew Hussey 37:53 No, but you don't, but the-

Sadia Khan 37:53 If no one's pointing a gun-

Matthew Hussey 37:54 But you don't know that they've done anything. The, the idea that everyone always, always and forever indicates-

Sadia Khan 38:00 Uh-huh

Matthew Hussey 38:00 ... that they are something nasty-

Sadia Khan 38:05 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 38:05 ... is a kind of, um... It's a, it feels really naive to me because there are such talented liars out there.

Sadia Khan 38:17 Mm-hmm. Oh.

Matthew Hussey 38:17 And there are some truly talented narcissists who know how to create a, an impression of who they are and the way they show up in your world.

Sadia Khan 38:25 Uh-huh.

Matthew Hussey 38:26 It's, I don't-

Lewis Howes 38:27 But usually there's like-

Sadia Khan 38:28 But I-

Matthew Hussey 38:28 Listen, I'm not saying that there aren't many, many situations where-

Sadia Khan 38:31 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 38:31 ... if we were really paying attention, we'd see discrepancies-

Sadia Khan 38:34 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 38:34 ... in what someone's telling us-

Sadia Khan 38:35 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 38:35 ... and what the actions are.

Lewis Howes 38:36 Right, right.

Matthew Hussey 38:36 Of course.

Lewis Howes 38:37 Yeah, yeah.

Matthew Hussey 38:37 Of course.

Sadia Khan 38:37 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 38:37 We get, we get love bombed-

Matthew Hussey 38:38 But-

Lewis Howes 38:38 ... we don't see that.

Sadia Khan 38:39 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 38:39 ... but there's plenty of situations where you couldn't, you could not have seen coming just how badly someone betrayed you or just... It's like saying, you know, someone who forgot to pay me back 100 bucks for dinner last week when they said they would.

Sadia Khan 38:57 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 38:57 Um, I, you know, six months later when they robbed my bank account, I go, "I should have seen it coming. They didn't pay me back for dinner." The, there's one-

Sadia Khan 39:07 But it-

Matthew Hussey 39:08 There's such a leap between those two things, and human beings are capable of those giant leaps in moments that truly shock us when they happen.

Sadia Khan 39:15 But do you also think people, it's not that they make those giant leaps, it's just that when I decide to go blind with this person, it looks like a leap. I might have met somebody who didn't pay me back for one fee or didn't pay me back another time. Now, because I've become blind to it, it's... Look, there are very talented liars out there, but they only work with naive people.

Matthew Hussey 39:36 That's not true.

Sadia Khan 39:37 Talented liar cannot work-

Matthew Hussey 39:38 That's not true

Sadia Khan 39:38 ... in my world.

Matthew Hussey 39:38 That's just not true.

Sadia Khan 39:39 I've not experienced it because I'm attuned to it. There has to be a level of complicit, uh, accepting the, there has to be.

Matthew Hussey 39:46 There-

Sadia Khan 39:46 Because people can't hide character. They can hide behaviors, but they can't hide character.

Matthew Hussey 39:50 There are, there are people who, you know, the... There are people who are able to pull the wool over incredibly smart people's eyes. And, and, and it's, to, to label everyone who's ever been through that situation as naive-

Sadia Khan 40:07 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 40:07 ... it is, it-

Lewis Howes 40:08 Maybe they're just trusting. Maybe it's just that-

Sadia Khan 40:09 They're just trusting, yeah

Lewis Howes 40:10 ... there's trusting people.

Sadia Khan 40:10 I'm not saying naive is a bad trait.

Matthew Hussey 40:12 If we la- if we label trusting as naive, are we labeling trusting as naive now?

Sadia Khan 40:15 Yes, when the be- behaviors and, and be- behaviors and words don't align-

Matthew Hussey 40:18 But we're not saying they don't-

Sadia Khan 40:18 ... and you trust regardless

Matthew Hussey 40:19 ... we're saying a liar's behaviors and words can align for a while.

Sadia Khan 40:23 For a while is a key word.

Lewis Howes 40:25 But then if the-

Matthew Hussey 40:25 But then, but then when the other shoe drops, what do I say? It's my fault for not somehow predicting this?

Sadia Khan 40:29 But, uh, our responsibility as a human being is not to just believe the best in people, it's to believe the truth in people.

Matthew Hussey 40:36 But they were showing me the best in them.

Sadia Khan 40:38 But at some-

Matthew Hussey 40:38 I was seeing a great person

Sadia Khan 40:39 ... at, at some point, nobody can lie 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

Matthew Hussey 40:43 But I'm not seeing them 24 hours a day.

Sadia Khan 40:45 But even in your experience, people will show you. They come late, they don't l- listen to promises, they might be doing different things on social media.

Matthew Hussey 40:52 But when someone shows up late, I don't think that they're gonna, you know, do something horrible to me four weeks later.

Sadia Khan 40:57 Uh, th- they're not, uh, that's not necessarily gonna lead to that. But when there's always bigger signs that lead to bigger betrayals. I personally have never come across a client that's been hugely betrayed, and this is the first time this person's ever let them down, ever in their life. I've never ex- seen that.

Matthew Hussey 41:12 You, you won't find me saying that there aren't, in many cases, signs that when we look back,

Matthew Hussey 41:17 we, we couldn't have seen. We, we often do.

Sadia Khan 41:19 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 41:19 But I just, I, I... The scope of abuse that I have seen makes it... A- and, and how it can happen to absolutely anybody, anybody.

Sadia Khan 41:34 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 41:34 The smartest, strongest people I know have been through some of the worst things. Uh, it, it makes it impossible for me to come to a conclusion that it's their fault. It makes it impossible for me to... It certainly would make it impossible for me to ever start from a place of saying, you know, "Self-compassion isn't what you need. What you need is to know it's your fault."

Sadia Khan 41:59 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 42:00 That-

Sadia Khan 42:01 But what, what is your definition of self-compassion?

Matthew Hussey 42:05 It's my definition of self-

Sadia Khan 42:05 Because if it's ridding yourself of responsibility, I would-

Matthew Hussey 42:08 No, I-

Sadia Khan 42:09 But if it's a case of forgiving yourself for your mistakes-

Matthew Hussey 42:11 Let me give you... I, I, I, I, with myself, what's helped me so much in life is if some, let's say someone speaks to me in a way that takes me back to childhood.

Sadia Khan 42:29 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 42:30 I don't know it's happening in that moment, but some way that this person is speaking to me has, like, cut straight through to some part of me.

Sadia Khan 42:38 Somewhere into.

Matthew Hussey 42:39 And, and what I feel in this moment is, like, my whole nervous system has gone into fight or flight. What has helped me more than anything else is self-compassion.

Sadia Khan 42:51 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 42:52 Is not, you know, I've got this feeling now and I go, "Matthew, this is your, you know this is your fault that you have this feeling." What's helped me the most is to go, "This feeling comes from somewhere way, way, way back. I was not picking, I di- I didn't pick this feeling right now. I did not volunteer for this feeling. I didn't wake up today and go, 'What feeling do I wanna have? Oh, crippling anxiety, uh, feeling like a- infantilized in front of this person because of the tone they just used with me.'" It has taken me back to something, which was a time I certainly didn't choose this nervous system response that's gotten wired in. So what has helped me is not self-blame.

Sadia Khan 43:30 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 43:31 What has helped me more than anything else is a tremendous amount of self-compassion that- God, this is, this is not actually... The way, the feeling I'm having right now-

Sadia Khan 43:40 Is not voluntary

Matthew Hussey 43:40 ... is coming from somewhere else. Self-blame in that moment is utterly useless to me.

Sadia Khan 43:45 So what-

Matthew Hussey 43:45 Self-compassion is everything, and that, by the way, becomes the building block for, "Oh, God, Matthew, you know what? It's actually not your fault that you feel this right now. You've had this your whole life, dating back to a time where you never chose it. Uh, and, and, but what... Guess what, Matthew? You can change it. You can do something about it in this moment, and you can feel better. And let's start from this place of self-compassion and also know that it's okay. It's not your fault, but we can do something about it."

Sadia Khan 44:15 I know.

Matthew Hussey 44:16 The combination of those two things is magic. But to remove one and say, what we need instead is not self-compassion, but just jumping to-

Sadia Khan 44:26 Accountability

Matthew Hussey 44:27 ... it's your fault for getting yourself into this feeling-

Sadia Khan 44:29 Feeling

Matthew Hussey 44:29 ... is a, I, I don't, I-

Lewis Howes 44:30 Here's what I'm hearing you both say. That when someone has had something wrong to them happen.

Sadia Khan 44:36 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 44:38 Um, what I'm hearing you say, what, what tends to happen is we go into anger, blame, and make-

Sadia Khan 44:43 Externalizing

Lewis Howes 44:44 ... yeah, and make wrong, this person hurt me.

Sadia Khan 44:46 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 44:46 That's kind of the first shock. Then I think a lot of people go into, "Oh, how did I, what was so messed up within me-

Sadia Khan 44:54 Yeah

Lewis Howes 44:54 ... where I chose poorly, or I didn't see the signs?"

Lewis Howes 44:58 And then we start to self-doubt. We start to blame ourselves.

Sadia Khan 45:01 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 45:01 Right? We get angry at others, and then we, and we keep being angry 'cause we don't wanna face ourselves eventually. I'm like, "Oh, where did I go wrong," if there was anywhere. And the shame around this happening to us.

Sadia Khan 45:11 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 45:12 And that's where it sounds like self-compassion is, is huge to have at that point.

Sadia Khan 45:16 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 45:16 And to be compassionate towards self and say, "Okay, this happened to me. This person did something horrible to me." Maybe there was abuse, maybe there was whatever. Something tragic happened, and the person in me needs some love and some, some kindness and some self-forgiveness and compassion. And it sounds like what I'm hearing you say is-

Matthew Hussey 45:34 Which might be a life-saving thing, by the way

Sadia Khan 45:36 But what-

Matthew Hussey 45:36 For sure

Sadia Khan 45:36 ... what about the person that beats their wife because when they were young somebody used to beat them, or they saw their dad doing it? Should they say, "This isn't my fault, and this isn't, like, this is a child in me, and therefore I have, kind of have to forgive, like, just kind of understand myself?" Or should they say, "No, no, no. Listen, I understand you've been through all of this. I get it, but you don't have the right to bleed on others."

Matthew Hussey 45:57 You don't have the right to.

Sadia Khan 45:58 Yeah. So what-

Matthew Hussey 45:58 But you, but that-

Sadia Khan 45:59 But that mentality-

Matthew Hussey 45:59 But that's not what I'm saying

Sadia Khan 46:00 ... I know, but that mentality, what if it's in the wrong hands? Where for something to be useful, it has to be universally true.

Matthew Hussey 46:05 I'm not saying that the, the, the, the... But it doesn't, you know, someone who beats their wife-

Sadia Khan 46:13 But let's say it's-

Matthew Hussey 46:13 ... should be tried and should, and should be-

Sadia Khan 46:14 But what if it's not their fault?

Matthew Hussey 46:15 ... and should, and should have to, and should be removed from polite society if they can't help themselves.

Sadia Khan 46:20 Or the other way-

Matthew Hussey 46:20 In doing that

Sadia Khan 46:21 ... women hitting a man or, uh, sorry to gender it, yeah.

Matthew Hussey 46:23 Either, either way. I don't-

Sadia Khan 46:23 And-

Matthew Hussey 46:23 It doesn't matter to me. There, there's a, there's a, there's a, you know, someone has to, something has to be done about that. But it doesn't mean that when that person come... We can, I'm able to hold both truths-

Sadia Khan 46:38 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 46:38 ... where I can say, that woman should be nowhere near that man.

Sadia Khan 46:41 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 46:42 That man should face punishment for doing that.

Sadia Khan 46:45 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 46:45 Um, uh, should certainly be removed from anywhere he can continue to do that.

Sadia Khan 46:50 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 46:51 But also, the route to his healing is still self-compassion.

Sadia Khan 46:56 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 46:56 It still is. It's, it's not for her to give him compassion.

Sadia Khan 47:00 No, no.

Lewis Howes 47:01 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 47:01 But it's, it is, uh, the point that he's ready to heal, the only thing that will allow him to heal is for him to truly exercise self-compassion-

Lewis Howes 47:09 And forgive himself for

Matthew Hussey 47:09 ... and to be able to move through that and to choose a better way of responding. 'Cause right now his response system to whatever he's feeling is a, a, a despicable one.

Sadia Khan 47:20 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 47:20 Um, and so the, there need, a better dis- response system has to be developed.

Sadia Khan 47:25 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 47:25 But what I'm hearing Sadia-

Matthew Hussey 47:26 But self-compassion still plays a part

Lewis Howes 47:27 ... what I'm hearing Sadia saying, though, is once you go through the self-compassion and the healing journey, you've gotta take responsibility for your actions. Is that, is that what I hear you say?

Sadia Khan 47:35 Yeah, I do.

Lewis Howes 47:35 Whether you're the one who was the abuser-

Sadia Khan 47:37 Uh-huh

Lewis Howes 47:37 ... or the one who got abused.

Sadia Khan 47:39 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 47:40 You have to say, "Okay, where can I take responsibility-

Sadia Khan 47:42 Yeah

Lewis Howes 47:42 ... for this happening?" Is that what I'm hearing?

Sadia Khan 47:43 Because self-compassion is a great thing for those who are mentally stable, but there are lots of people in the world are not, and sometimes their self-compassion leads to their narcissism. It leads to n- this is not my fault. This is not what I did. It's what happened in childhood. So I think-

Matthew Hussey 47:56 I think insecurity leads to narcissism-

Sadia Khan 47:58 It does

Matthew Hussey 47:58 ... not self-compassion.

Sadia Khan 47:59 But excessive self-compassion can come from insecurity. It can come from, I don't, I didn't n- mean to do this. I didn't, uh... Can I just-

Lewis Howes 48:05 Nothing was my fault anymore

Matthew Hussey 48:05 I don't know if that's self-compassion. I think that's self-aggrandization.

Sadia Khan 48:08 Well, perhaps.

Matthew Hussey 48:08 I think those are very different things.

Sadia Khan 48:09 Yeah, perhaps. But wouldn't anything in excess be... Look, when I say self-compassion, uh, uh, in, if something

Sadia Khan 48:16 in an excess, I, the reason I do it is because I recognize the internet is filled with healthy people and unhealthy people. So the message is not always landing on healthy people, and I realize this when I get phone calls from people who say to me, "Oh, I know that he's just avoidant, so that's why he treats me badly," or, "I know that she's just a..." And they kind of make excuses-

Lewis Howes 48:33 She's just toxic

Sadia Khan 48:33 ... for-

Matthew Hussey 48:33 But let, let me ask you this.

Sadia Khan 48:34 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 48:34 Someone, a, a, a, a person who has been in a relationship for a long time with someone who has treated them terribly.

Sadia Khan 48:42 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 48:44 Do you think that they are lacking in self-blame or lacking in self-compassion?

Sadia Khan 48:50 Uh, I would say they're lacking in self-accountability. I really think it's uncompa- uh, because of the w-

Matthew Hussey 48:55 But if they had more compassion for themselves, they, they would get to a point where they would no longer want to tolerate that because if you have true compassion for yourself-

Sadia Khan 49:03 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 49:03 ... you don't put yourself in harm's way.

Sadia Khan 49:05 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 49:05 I would say the step that you're removing or saying is not, not important or is even wrong is actually the thing that's been missing all along that that person needs.

Sadia Khan 49:14 Sometimes the compassion can lead them into thinking, "I, I know I'm so wounded. I can't be alone. I know I'm like this person who's always been alone. I ca- grew up homeless." That compassion for themselves has made them understand how needy they can be, and sometimes we wanna shift that compassion to, okay, action. I understand this is all the reasons, but excessive self-compassion can lead to people being stagnant.

Matthew Hussey 49:36 I don't, I think that's incomplete self-compassion.

Sadia Khan 49:38 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 49:38 Self-compassion is I understand why I am the way I am.

Sadia Khan 49:43 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 49:44 I can view myself holistically, even on my worst days, and contextually within everything I've ever been through.

Sadia Khan 49:53 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 49:54 Um, and instead of taking all of these things that I do wrong in life, my regrets, my shame, my insecurities, the, and using them to actually hurt myself-

Sadia Khan 50:08 Mm

Matthew Hussey 50:08 ... which is what staying in an abusive or toxic relationship is, I'm gonna have true compassion for myself, which is I'm gonna accept these parts of myself, and I'm going to make it my mission to give myself a better life-

Sadia Khan 50:24 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 50:24 ... instead of thinking that I deserve this punishment, or that I deserve this kind of treatment, or that this is all I'm worthy of.

Lewis Howes 50:30 One thing, it's about deserve. I mean-

Sadia Khan 50:31 It's, it is-

Lewis Howes 50:31 It's not about deserving it, right?

Sadia Khan 50:32 Yeah, it's, it's self-selection

Matthew Hussey 50:34 ... or that I'm, or it's all I'm worthy of.

Sadia Khan 50:34 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 50:34 Or it's all I'm worthy of.

Sadia Khan 50:35 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 50:36 Self-compassion is, is both accepting yourself holistically, and then also accepting the responsibility-

Sadia Khan 50:44 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 50:44 ... for taking care of yourself. Uh, you know, so the, the, I see, there's, there's, to me, there's noth- uh, the kind of thing you're talking about still isn't true self-compassion.

Sadia Khan 50:55 Mm-hmm. Well, it's more self-understanding is what I'm trying to say. What am I-

Matthew Hussey 51:00 I think-

Sadia Khan 51:00 ... missing?

Matthew Hussey 51:00 ... there's, what you're saying is if someone is, uh... You're saying I'm excusing myself treating myself horribly-

Sadia Khan 51:11 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 51:11 ... and someone else treating myself horribly-

Sadia Khan 51:13 Because they've-

Matthew Hussey 51:13 ... because of what I've been through.

Sadia Khan 51:15 Uh-huh. But compassion without responsibility leads to stagnation.

Matthew Hussey 51:19 I think compassion leads to responsibility.

Sadia Khan 51:22 Uh, it, perhaps in the way-

Matthew Hussey 51:23 Self-compassion leads to responsibility

Sadia Khan 51:23 ... yeah, maybe I'm misunderstanding, yeah, maybe I'm misunderstanding what true self-compassion means, but I genuinely think what will ignite was, m- me personally, and I can't speak for everybody, and also even sometimes when I speak to clients and just, and I, my focus is, "Okay, forgive yourself for this behavior. You've grown up like this. This is, you're homeless," sometimes, or, "You had abusive parents. You forgive yourself for accepting the abuse, but now

Sadia Khan 51:46 what?" And then the, the now what part says, "Does that mean for the rest of your life you're gonna accept this?" Now it's, you're self-selecting. If your childhood is your self-compassionate part, your adulthood is your self-selection. So your adult life has to be moving from that compassionate state to that accountable state.

Matthew Hussey 52:03 They're al- they always live in h- hand in hand, though. It is, it's the, we're gonna need compa- self-compassion a, a-

Sadia Khan 52:10 Forever

Matthew Hussey 52:10 ... 100,000 more times. I'm gonna make so many more mistakes, and there are gonna be so many... My, my instinct is self-tyranny.

Sadia Khan 52:18 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 52:18 That's not-

Sadia Khan 52:19 [laughs] Your brain hates you

Matthew Hussey 52:20 ... that is, that self-tyranny, if you wanna say that's like responsibility-

Sadia Khan 52:24 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 52:24 ... it's made me miserable for half my life, is constantly thinking that I'm, I, "No, I need to go out and I need to do this, and I need to take responsibility for this," and so on, and never offering myself self-compassion.

Lewis Howes 52:35 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 52:35 It, self-compassion is something I need 1,000 times a day, and I give myself twice a week-

Sadia Khan 52:42 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 52:42 ... if I'm not careful.

Sadia Khan 52:43 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 52:44 So I'm gonna need that many more times, and that allied with taking accountability is an unbelievably potent combination.

Sadia Khan 52:54 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 52:55 But the accountability without the compassion is a mandate for self-tyranny.

Sadia Khan 53:00 Would you imagine that taking accountability and making better choices l- is, then creates self-compassion because you're leading a life that is more constructive?

Matthew Hussey 53:09 Well, I, I don't th- I don't think one leads to the other automatically at all.

Sadia Khan 53:12 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 53:12 I mean, I've never... I, i- in all the days I've worked-

Sadia Khan 53:14 And I'm sorry to keep talking about this.

Lewis Howes 53:16 It's all good.

Sadia Khan 53:16 I don't mean to [laughs] like-

Lewis Howes 53:17 It's absolutely-

Matthew Hussey 53:17 So Sadia, this is why you brought us here.

Sadia Khan 53:19 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 53:19 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 53:19 What do you think you set this up for?

Sadia Khan 53:21 I'm so sorry. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 53:21 So what I hear you say-

Sadia Khan 53:22 I don't mean to keep going in circles

Lewis Howes 53:24 ... you're bo- you're bo-... So, so do you, I mean, it sounds like you both think self-compassion and responsibility are important.

Sadia Khan 53:30 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 53:30 But let, but, but let me-

Sadia Khan 53:30 But maybe they're the wrong way around

Matthew Hussey 53:32 ... let me get to your point. To your point.

Sadia Khan 53:32 Maybe in the wrong, we think it the wrong way around. [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 53:34 That, that, what you just said, that doesn't taking responsibility lead to self-compassion, it actually, it actually doesn't.

Sadia Khan 53:41 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 53:41 It, it has... I challenge everyone in the audience to tell me if they think otherwise. You l- leave a comment and tell me, but I-

Sadia Khan 53:48 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 53:48 ... I have found that I've worked hard most days of my life.

Sadia Khan 53:54 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 53:55 And every day I get to the end of the day, and it doesn't make me more compassionate towards myself.

Lewis Howes 54:00 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 54:01 Every day I get to the end of the day and I say, "I'll see you in six hours when I'm gonna put you through your paces again and take you to boot camp all over again." And every morning, my pattern in my life has been waking up in deficit-

Sadia Khan 54:12 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 54:12 ... and thinking, "I need to go and kill myself today working hard so that I've earned my rent." And-

Lewis Howes 54:20 But why do you feel, why do you feel you need to do that every day?

Matthew Hussey 54:23 Because I lack self-compassion.

Sadia Khan 54:25 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 54:25 That's the point, is that without self-compassion, I can put myself in a cycle of abuse my whole life. So it's, self-compassion is a vital component, and then the accountability that can arise out of that is not only something that allows us to solve problems-

Sadia Khan 54:46 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 54:46 ... but it's also, um, it's also then you're doing it from a very healing place. You're not doing it from a place of self-hatred. Of co- you can take responsibility your whole life from a place of self-hatred.

Sadia Khan 54:58 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 54:58 And many people do.

Lewis Howes 54:59 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 54:59 They, how many people-

Lewis Howes 55:00 It's true

Matthew Hussey 55:01 ... get, uh, uh, come into adulthood, and for the rest of their lives they work hard and they ... push themselves and they're hard on themselves, and they are masters of taking responsibility

Lewis Howes 55:12 Accountable.

Sadia Khan 55:12 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 55:12 But they h- they spend their whole lives miserable and hating themselves-

Sadia Khan 55:16 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 55:16 ... and never feeling good enough.

Sadia Khan 55:17 I-

Matthew Hussey 55:17 Self-compassion is the, is

Matthew Hussey 55:19 the magic that means that when you are accountable, accountability is done from love, not from fear or hatred.

Sadia Khan 55:26 Okay. And, and I would, personally, I think I underestimate the power of self-compassion, and I replace it with self-respect. And for me, the fundamental ingredient in both your mental health and the way you treat others comes from self-respect. And how I gain self-respect is by making accountable and productive decisions in every area of my life.

Lewis Howes 55:44 Mm-hmm. Creating boundaries.

Sadia Khan 55:44 Whether it's the food I eat-

Lewis Howes 55:46 Yeah

Sadia Khan 55:46 ... whether it's the time I wake up, or whether it's the partner I select, and it's how I treat them. Now, self-compassion is secondary to self-respect.

Matthew Hussey 55:53 It comes first.

Sadia Khan 55:54 To me [laughs] it is.

Matthew Hussey 55:54 It comes first.

Sadia Khan 55:55 Yeah, it do.

Matthew Hussey 55:55 And let me tell you why it comes first.

Sadia Khan 55:56 [laughs] I'm so sorry, Matthew.

Lewis Howes 55:57 [laughs] But look-

Matthew Hussey 55:57 Let me tell you why it comes first. No, this is really, this is an important point.

Sadia Khan 56:00 Yes.

Lewis Howes 56:00 Wait, wait. Before you say why it comes first, I want you to finish the thought-

Sadia Khan 56:03 Yeah

Lewis Howes 56:03 ... and then you can say why it comes first.

Sadia Khan 56:03 So here's the thing.

Lewis Howes 56:04 So why is it... Go ahead.

Sadia Khan 56:05 Because here's the thing. I can live a very constructive and treat other people very well when I respect myself. What the reason why self-respect is so important is that not only does it h- enhance my self-esteem, and what I mean by self-respect is responsible, actionable decisions, accountable decisions, making good, sensible decisions.

Lewis Howes 56:22 Boundaries also included.

Sadia Khan 56:23 Boundaries. I respect myself. But, and in order to respect-

Lewis Howes 56:26 Now, is this also loving yourself and for all the mistakes you've made in the past?

Sadia Khan 56:30 Respecting is more important than loving, and the reason I say that is loving myself might involve booking a vacation, going to a spa, and, and eating pizza in the evening. Respecting myself is understanding that those are actually self-indulgence. Better thing might be to do is to wake up early, go to the gym, eat no carbs for the day, and have no sugar and sleep early. That's not loving. I don't love doing those things, but I respect myself when I do those things. And the reason why self-respect is so important to me is, I, I'm not saying I abide by this, but it's so important in relationships. Once we respect ourselves, we're able to respect others and only allow those that respect us into our lives. Self-compassion makes us not only compassionate for ourselves, it can then make me think, "Well, he's probably been th-" I have endless clients that come to me and say, "I've been through this. I've been through that. I've been through this, but then he's also had an abusive father and that's why he hits me," or, "She grew up in an unstable home and that's why she cheats on me." Self-compassion can lead to you mirroring that in others and making excuses for poor behavior. Self-respect leads to you mirroring self-respect in others and only allowing those that respect you in your life.

Matthew Hussey 57:33 Okay.

Lewis Howes 57:34 See Matthew, like, breathing intensely over here.

Matthew Hussey 57:36 I, there's so many things to say.

Sadia Khan 57:37 I can feel your breath. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 57:38 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 57:39 That, what... So let's just handle the last point first.

Lewis Howes 57:42 So, uh, self-respect over self-compassion is what I'm hearing.

Matthew Hussey 57:43 Yeah. But let, but let-

Sadia Khan 57:44 Absolutely. Yeah

Matthew Hussey 57:44 ... but, s- you said compassion can be really dangerous, and compassion can be really dangerous in relationships.

Sadia Khan 57:51 Yeah, in the wrong hands.

Matthew Hussey 57:52 Especially in narcissistic or abusive relationships.

Sadia Khan 57:54 No.

Lewis Howes 57:54 Yes.

Matthew Hussey 57:54 Compassion can be weaponized against you. But the only way, the only way compassion for others can be weaponized against you is if you have no self-compassion.

Sadia Khan 58:05 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 58:06 What I'm saying is still king, because if you can't have self-compassion, then you will have an outward compassion that gets weaponized against you because-

Sadia Khan 58:14 What if your self-compassion has you thinking, "This is why I act toxic, so I can understand why somebody's toxic to me"?

Matthew Hussey 58:20 Of course, but that's, uh, you're not gonna he- he- being compassionate,

Matthew Hussey 58:24 that still doesn't mean being compassionate towards yourself means allowing someone to do that to you.

Sadia Khan 58:29 Or you doing it to others. You do, you can also be a hazard to others when you're compassionate with yourself for why you are so flawed.

Matthew Hussey 58:35 Well, you have to have a compassion with yourself that y- this, I'm not saying compassion is devoid of responsibility.

Sadia Khan 58:43 Mm-hmm. You're just saying it has to come first.

Matthew Hussey 58:44 It's, but it's a precursor, because it, the, the self-respect point is a dangerous one. Because if I don't, on the days where I don't do things that make me respect myself-

Sadia Khan 58:58 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 58:58 Mm

Matthew Hussey 58:58 ... like let's say I sleep in, let's say I forget to go to or don't go to the gym.

Lewis Howes 59:03 Right.

Sadia Khan 59:03 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 59:03 Let's say I eat pizza.

Lewis Howes 59:03 Eat a bunch of junk, right.

Sadia Khan 59:04 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 59:05 ... let's say the days I don't respect myself, those are actually the days I need self-compassion the most.

Sadia Khan 59:11 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 59:11 Self-compassion actually is the foundation on which tomorrow I do better. There is a bit-

Sadia Khan 59:18 What if that becomes your constant state?

Matthew Hussey 59:19 I, I feel like there's two, a couple of things becoming confused, 'cause there's s- the, to me, the deepest level of confidence-

Sadia Khan 59:25 I'm so sorry, guys. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 59:26 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 59:26 The deep, the, the deepest-

Sadia Khan 59:27 We can, we can make this whole podcast [laughs]

Lewis Howes 59:28 It's great. It's great

Matthew Hussey 59:28 ... the deepest level of confidence, I write about this in my book, the deepest level of confidence is unconditional self-acceptance.

Sadia Khan 59:34 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 59:35 It's understanding you are, you're human. Y- you shouldn't ever wish for another 'cause you don't get another. You are the only person you get, and your job in this life above all other jobs is to give yourself the best life you can.

Sadia Khan 59:47 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 59:48 And you start by a radical acceptance of who you are today-

Sadia Khan 59:53 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 59:53 ... based on everything you've been through.

Sadia Khan 59:55 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 59:56 Right? You accept, self-acceptance is different from self-esteem.

Sadia Khan 1:00:00 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:00:00 What you call self-respect, I call self-esteem.

Sadia Khan 1:00:03 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 1:00:04 Self-esteem, self-respect is built by doing hard things.

Sadia Khan 1:00:07 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:00:08 Now, that's a great way to build, uh, a sense of confidence.

Sadia Khan 1:00:13 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:00:13 But it's a separate thing from self-compassion, which frankly is vital on the days where our self-esteem is at its worst.

Sadia Khan 1:00:22 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:00:23 That is, self-compassion will actually be the thing that in a very positive and beautiful and loving way will motivate you to do things that build your self-esteem.

Sadia Khan 1:00:33 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:00:34 Can you also build self-esteem based on self-hatred and, uh, uh, self-tyranny? Well, you might be able to build some respect of like, yes, I can run a marathon. Yes, I can do this. Yes, I can work 14-hour days. You might be able to build that kind of muscle and then say, "I respect myself 'cause I built this muscle." But self-respect doesn't create self-love, and what you're saying is self-love, which is going out to a beach and drinking cocktails or getting a massage or whatever, which you then said was self-indulgence. I agree. It's like, that's a different thing. That's a-

Sadia Khan 1:01:05 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 1:01:05 ... self-care is not self-love.

Sadia Khan 1:01:07 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 1:01:07 Self-love is- Do I accept myself holistically?

Sadia Khan 1:01:11 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:01:12 Can I find compassion for myself?

Sadia Khan 1:01:15 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:01:15 And can I, can I take the view this morning that my human is my responsibility to try to give the best life to, and that starts with accepting myself?

Sadia Khan 1:01:25 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:01:26 So it's self-conf- confidence at the deepest level is self-acceptance, which is born out of c- self-compassion, and self-esteem, which is born out of doing hard things. I, I feel-

Lewis Howes 1:01:40 You can't just accept yourself for being lazy and making poor choices all the time

Sadia Khan 1:01:42 Lewis, you have to choose. Who do you agree with?

Lewis Howes 1:01:44 [laughs]

Sadia Khan 1:01:44 You have to pick, you have to pick one.

Lewis Howes 1:01:45 And you can't just-

Sadia Khan 1:01:45 It's not him

Lewis Howes 1:01:46 ... you can't just accept yourself, "Well, I'm just gonna keep making poor choices every day-

Sadia Khan 1:01:49 And put me in this-

Lewis Howes 1:01:49 ... and keep me in this situation."

Sadia Khan 1:01:50 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 1:01:50 Well, that, well that's not self-compassion.

Lewis Howes 1:01:51 No, yeah, yeah.

Matthew Hussey 1:01:52 If you, if you keep yourself in a place that hurts you-

Lewis Howes 1:01:54 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 1:01:54 ... then that compassion-

Sadia Khan 1:01:56 That's not compassion

Matthew Hussey 1:01:56 ... is not actually, you're not really-

Sadia Khan 1:01:58 It's enabling

Matthew Hussey 1:01:58 ... connecting

Matthew Hussey 1:01:59 with-

Sadia Khan 1:01:59 Mm

Matthew Hussey 1:01:59 ... wanting to give the best life for yourself.

Lewis Howes 1:02:01 So compassion then, it's an action towards something better.

Matthew Hussey 1:02:02 Then, then compassion is what actually, in a very beautiful way, gets the car moving, and doing hard things is what builds the self-esteem that builds the belief that you can do more.

Sadia Khan 1:02:14 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:02:14 Okay, pause on this.

Sadia Khan 1:02:15 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:02:16 What, you know, [laughs] there's a lot to digest.

Sadia Khan 1:02:17 Well, well [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:02:18 I want people to leave in the comments-

Sadia Khan 1:02:19 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:02:19 ... where they, what, what's resonating, what's opening up.

Sadia Khan 1:02:22 Oh.

Lewis Howes 1:02:22 Um, I think you guys are both right.

Sadia Khan 1:02:24 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:02:24 You're just saying it in a little different ways.

Sadia Khan 1:02:25 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:02:26 Um...

Sadia Khan 1:02:26 The audience usually hates me, so I'm sure you'll, you'll win that-

Lewis Howes 1:02:29 [laughs]

Sadia Khan 1:02:29 ... quite easily, so no worries.

Lewis Howes 1:02:30 There's, there's so much-

Sadia Khan 1:02:31 But I do like the-

Lewis Howes 1:02:32 Yeah, yeah

Sadia Khan 1:02:32 ... I do like an alternative perspective.

Lewis Howes 1:02:34 Yeah.

Sadia Khan 1:02:34 'Cause I'm a very hard-headed person.

Lewis Howes 1:02:35 Mm-hmm.

Sadia Khan 1:02:35 I think what I think, and it's usually the way I am, so I just like the idea of-

Lewis Howes 1:02:39 That's great

Sadia Khan 1:02:39 ... yeah, being challenged.

Lewis Howes 1:02:40 I love it.

Sadia Khan 1:02:40 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:02:41 I love it. I want to, um, I have about 20 questions I wanted to ask around here, but I wanna f-

Sadia Khan 1:02:46 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:02:46 ... I wanna finish with, try to finish with two.

Sadia Khan 1:02:49 Okay.

Lewis Howes 1:02:49 'Cause like-

Sadia Khan 1:02:50 Sorry, we, uh [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:02:50 ... no, this is great. I'm loving this. This is great.

Sadia Khan 1:02:52 Ooh.

Lewis Howes 1:02:52 Don't be sorry about anything.

Sadia Khan 1:02:53 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:02:53 Um, but what I'm hearing in this process is the single dating phase.

Sadia Khan 1:02:58 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:02:58 Why you're single, why people being stuck in single or just constant dating and they never be able to find the right match. One of the most important decisions we make in life is who we select.

Sadia Khan 1:03:07 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:03:08 Is the relationship we choose to be with, our long-term partner.

Sadia Khan 1:03:11 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:03:12 It can bring us a lot of joy and fulfillment and peace, or it can create, uh, extreme sadness and suffering a- and, uh, frustration. And I keep hearing you say the selection process is important. I know you talk about selection being an important process. You know, reason pe- a lot of, big reason why people get divorced is 'cause they choose poorly.

Sadia Khan 1:03:30 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:03:31 And they didn't have the courageous conversations that you're talking about, and you as well.

Sadia Khan 1:03:35 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:03:37 I wanna ask, I'm gonna let you start and then-

Sadia Khan 1:03:39 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:03:39 ... I'm gonna let you, you a- add after this. Sadia, what would you say, before someone commits to a, a marriage-

Sadia Khan 1:03:47 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:03:47 ... or even just a long-term committed relationship, what are three things that that individual should do on their own before they commit or in the dating process with the person they're dating to see if they, they really are setting themselves up for a healthy, conscious relationship? Obviously no relationship being perfect, and it might have-

Sadia Khan 1:04:08 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:04:08 ... some ups and downs, but setting yourself up for the best possible chance for happiness in a relationship, what are three things that a person should do on their own or starting that dating process before getting committed?

Sadia Khan 1:04:20 Firstly, you would ask yourself, "Am I going to punish this person for wounds that they didn't create? Is there any chance that I am going to use this person as a punching bag or, or the opposite, where I use them as an escalational status? Am I using this person in any way, shape, or form to heal wounds that occurred before their existence?" So maybe I was hurt in my childhood or hurt by a previous partner. Am I using this person in any way-

Lewis Howes 1:04:44 To fix that

Sadia Khan 1:04:44 ... to rec- to fix that?

Lewis Howes 1:04:45 Oh.

Sadia Khan 1:04:45 Or maybe I suffered from low self-esteem and I'm using this person's appearance or their bravado to help me regain some, as a shortcut to status.

Lewis Howes 1:04:53 Hmm.

Sadia Khan 1:04:53 And is there any way I'm doing this to this person? If I am doing this to this person, then it, there is no way that this per- this relationship will work or withstand the test of time. So I need to be honest about that to myself.

Lewis Howes 1:05:03 Okay. That's number one.

Sadia Khan 1:05:04 That's number one. The second thing is, um, can I commit to being honest about

Sadia Khan 1:05:09 my needs with them and o- be open to receive what their needs are from me? Am I open to have those conversations? If I'm going to simply communicate my needs and not listen to theirs, or simply listen to their needs and not me, uh, my own, the relationship is going to feel incredibly heavy on one direction, so it's going to eventually break down. And the final thing is, how am I gonna behave if worst-case scenario happens? And what I mean by that is, if tomorrow we were to get divorced, or if tomorrow we had to go be co-parents rather than actual loving parents, are we going to treat each other with respect and compassion and do what's best for each other? Or in those moments are we gonna become enemies?

Lewis Howes 1:05:48 Hmm.

Sadia Khan 1:05:49 If you think that you're marrying somebody that has the potential to become your enemy when things go wrong, do not marry them. It, it's better to marry somebody that you can successfully divorce than marry somebody where you ignore that. And what I mean by that is, if worst-case scenario happened, then you know that Martha would be a good person.

Lewis Howes 1:06:06 Yes.

Sadia Khan 1:06:06 Worst-case scenario is she'll put the kids' needs first. You'd probably get to see them every weekend. It would be no pulling, like years and years of stealing everything you got from each other. Her worst-case scenario is still manageable. She's still reasonable. But if you're marrying somebody that if worst-case scenario happened, my entire life would be a death sentence, don't do it.

Lewis Howes 1:06:27 Wow.

Sadia Khan 1:06:28 Yeah. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:06:28 Okay. Okay. So just to recap that, uh, getting-

Sadia Khan 1:06:31 Even I forgot what I said there, didn't I? [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:06:33 No, it was great. No, I thought it was great.

Sadia Khan 1:06:34 No, it was very, very-

Lewis Howes 1:06:34 And, and, you know, and, you know, Matthew's gotta come up with three new things.

Matthew Hussey 1:06:37 Well, this is cheating. I've got no time.

Lewis Howes 1:06:39 Yeah, you, yeah, you have time.

Sadia Khan 1:06:40 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:06:41 So the first thing was don't get into a relationship where you're going to heal or fix something from your past that you haven't already processed and done the healing work already.

Sadia Khan 1:06:50 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:06:50 Or you haven't built the self-esteem that you're trying to gain from the other person.

Sadia Khan 1:06:55 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:06:55 They would add maybe, but not doing it to fix. The second one is being honest about your needs and, and if they can accept your needs, and vice versa.

Sadia Khan 1:07:03 Yeah, receiving.

Lewis Howes 1:07:03 Can you accept their needs?

Sadia Khan 1:07:04 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:07:04 Really ask them, what else are you gonna need?

Sadia Khan 1:07:07 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:07:07 What do you think you might need?

Sadia Khan 1:07:08 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:07:08 Is sex important? What about this? What about... Like, asking needs.

Sadia Khan 1:07:10 What would cause you to divorce me?

Lewis Howes 1:07:12 Yeah, what would cause-

Sadia Khan 1:07:12 What would cause you to cheat on me? You know?

Lewis Howes 1:07:14 Those are, those are all vulnerable questions-

Sadia Khan 1:07:15 Mm

Lewis Howes 1:07:15 ... that most people aren't willing to- To ask. And so I think having the vulnerable questions about needs, wants, desires early on. And the third is, um, how will I behave or what's the worst-case scenario they will behave?

Sadia Khan 1:07:27 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:07:28 And that's an interesting thing you said that because one of the... I mean, all the relationships I was in previously-

Sadia Khan 1:07:35 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:07:35 ... um, again, I don't wanna say none of them were bad people or anything like that, but the reason- one of the main reasons why I never felt I couldn't marry any, any of them was because I didn't feel like if we broke up that they would be able to, like, handle things peacefully.

Sadia Khan 1:07:52 Yes. Reasonably.

Lewis Howes 1:07:53 Reasonably. Yeah. Right, right.

Sadia Khan 1:07:54 Reasonably is all we need.

Lewis Howes 1:07:54 Like, can they just be reasonable people?

Sadia Khan 1:07:56 Reasonable is all we need.

Lewis Howes 1:07:57 Or are they gonna overreact about everything?

Sadia Khan 1:07:58 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:07:59 You know?

Sadia Khan 1:07:59 And are they gonna punish-

Lewis Howes 1:07:59 That was one of the things, yeah

Sadia Khan 1:08:00 ... are they gonna hold that in them forever-

Lewis Howes 1:08:02 Exactly

Sadia Khan 1:08:02 ... and use that to punish?

Lewis Howes 1:08:02 Am I gonna suffer the rest of my life?

Sadia Khan 1:08:04 Yeah, it's unbearable.

Lewis Howes 1:08:04 You know, all that stuff.

Sadia Khan 1:08:05 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:08:05 So I think those are three great things. Um, and what about you, Matthew? Three things that someone should do before they commit to a long-term relationship.

Matthew Hussey 1:08:13 Um, what did I write down? There's a... I, well, I think, I think really assessing whether y- the connection you have with this person is

Matthew Hussey 1:08:25 built on fundamentals. It's not just built on attraction or, you know, "I just love having sex with this person," or, "I feel like, you know, it's so exciting." It's, uh, David Brooks said, "Marriage is a 50-year conversation." Who can you have a conversation with for that long, you know? Do you feel like this person is someone you can see yourself having a conversation with for that long? Um, I would say accepting l- s- trying to do some of the work. Perhaps not all, but trying to do some of the work of accepting yourself-

Sadia Khan 1:08:57 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 1:08:58 ... before you get there. Taking the things that you feel most shame about, the things that you beat yourself up about, the things that you... You know, if you weren't careful, you would take them into the relationship and constantly use them as reasons to not feel good enough.

Sadia Khan 1:09:17 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 1:09:17 Because it's... Baggage is only baggage if it's baggage to you. If it's not baggage to you, if it's like you own it, like, "This is my history. This is my life. I have made peace with it. I have made peace with who I am today and how I got here and the lessons I've taken from it all," then when you communicate that to someone else, you're gonna be communicating it from a place of strength and abundance and acceptance. But it- it's a much harder struggle. It's not impossible, 'cause one of the m- most beautiful things about a relationship is someone can help you accept yourself-

Sadia Khan 1:09:57 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 1:09:57 ... by the way that they love you.

Sadia Khan 1:09:59 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 1:09:59 And that's a great sign of a, an amazing relationship. But if we can take a little of that work off their shoulders-

Sadia Khan 1:10:05 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 1:10:06 ... and do some of it for ourselves before we get there, it means that we, they won't have to convince us that holistically, you know, we are this great package. We'll already believe it ourselves.

Lewis Howes 1:10:19 Wow.

Matthew Hussey 1:10:19 Um, go through some hard times together if you can. I mean, I'm not suggesting we engineer them.

Lewis Howes 1:10:26 [laughs]

Sadia Khan 1:10:27 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 1:10:28 But, but, you know, there's, there's... I think giving yourself the, the time, if you can, to experience some things together.

Lewis Howes 1:10:34 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 1:10:35 You, you, you know, I think one of the dangers is w- that we have made a lot of decisions about who someone is and how great they are for us and how great we are for them in very few contexts of having known them.

Sadia Khan 1:10:48 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:10:49 You know, we've w- we, we've done six months of nice dinners-

Sadia Khan 1:10:52 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 1:10:52 ... and we think we'd be great together. Well, what about when one of you gets sick? What about when you have a family member who is very demanding, and you're having to navigate how to deal with this demanding family member and, you know, figure that out with your partner at the same time who's, you know, frustrated by this family member of yours? What about when, you know, one of you is going through a very busy chapter at work, and it's stressful, and you're not able to give as much? Y- who are you in those difficult moments? That gives you a chance to evaluate the team. Not the romance, not the attraction. Evaluate the team.

Sadia Khan 1:11:29 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 1:11:30 And you only know who the team is when there are tough things for the team to go through. Um, and I think lastly, just be, be someone who's got into the habit of having challenging conversations in life.

Lewis Howes 1:11:43 Yeah, that's good.

Matthew Hussey 1:11:44 Because your life improves in direct proportion to-

Sadia Khan 1:11:47 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 1:11:47 ... the number of hard conversations you're willing to have.

Lewis Howes 1:11:50 I agree.

Matthew Hussey 1:11:51 And, um, everything that you, I know you subscribe to, about asking difficult questions and what you've been talking about is really about being willing to have hard conversations, uh, which is something

Matthew Hussey 1:12:02 a lot of people really, really avoid because they're afraid of losing a person. But you have to be more afraid of someone making you unhappy than you are of losing them.

Lewis Howes 1:12:09 Mm-hmm.

Sadia Khan 1:12:09 Or losing yourself.

Lewis Howes 1:12:11 Or losing yourself.

Sadia Khan 1:12:11 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:12:11 Wow.

Sadia Khan 1:12:12 A normal process.

Lewis Howes 1:12:13 Wow.

Sadia Khan 1:12:13 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:12:13 I've got a ton more questions to ask.

Sadia Khan 1:12:15 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:12:15 But I wanna wrap it up here.

Sadia Khan 1:12:16 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:12:16 I would add to this just three things that came up for me is, one, getting clear on the vision of the relationship you wanna have-

Sadia Khan 1:12:23 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:12:23 ... and making sure that vision aligns with the other person. So really communicating hard conversations, expressing values. Do we want kids? You know, how are family involved? You know, are we gonna see family all the time? All these different things. So getting clear on the vision of a relationship you would like to have, although that might evolve and change over time, but doing the best you can and communicating that vision to the person and making sure it aligns. And then I would say number two and three is... Number two is ex- fully accepting yourself. Kind of like all of you, the back history, the, the stuff you've done bad or wrong or whatever it might be, the things you've been through. Accepting who you are and feeling that love and acceptance, and then fully accepting the person that you're choosing to be with.

Sadia Khan 1:13:05 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:13:05 'Cause I think a lot of people choose someone, and then they don't accept them later-

Sadia Khan 1:13:09 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:13:09 ... for all their behaviors-

Sadia Khan 1:13:11 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:13:11 ... their beliefs, their way of actions, their, their thoughts. Um, but you chose them, so choose to accept them before entering a long-term committed relationship. You know, and make sure you have standards and boundaries in place, but- You're, you're choosing them, so make sure you accept, accept them-

Sadia Khan 1:13:27 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:13:27 ... before you enter that long-term relationship.

Matthew Hussey 1:13:29 And don't think they're gonna be a different person on the other side-

Sadia Khan 1:13:31 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 1:13:31 ... of the, what the vows.

Lewis Howes 1:13:32 Yeah, exactly.

Sadia Khan 1:13:32 And if you have to have a new set of boundaries after marriage, you didn't accept them for who they truly were.

Lewis Howes 1:13:37 Right.

Sadia Khan 1:13:37 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:13:37 Exactly. Exactly. So that'd be what I'd add there. I would love people's response to what opened up, what was interesting for them, what, um, spoke to them the most in the comments below. So leave a comment letting us know the biggest takeaway and what you wanna hear more from. Uh, Sadia Khan, that's sadiapsychology.com and the Sadi- @sadiapsychology on Instagram as well. You've got online coaching. You do livestreams. You've got Patreon, YouTube, all this different content online. People can check you out. A lot of interesting stuff and perspective. We got Matthew Hussey, a New York Time bestselling author in the last week. Congratulations. Your new book, Love Life: How to Raise Your Standards, Find Your Person, and Live Happily No Matter What. Matthewhussey.com for all your content, but the newsletter is the3relationships.com as well. And, uh, we'll have everything linked up below for, for these two incredible relationship experts and coaches. Uh, is there any final thought you'd like to say on entering a relationship with, uh, for this conversation? Anything you'd like to add to finalize this point here? We'll let you go, Matthew, first and then Sadia, wrap it up.

Matthew Hussey 1:14:44 No, I, I, I... This has been fun. I, I feel like I-

Sadia Khan 1:14:47 I, I like, I think we demonstrated-

Matthew Hussey 1:14:48 ... it's been a really-

Sadia Khan 1:14:48 ... what difficult conversations look like really well.

Matthew Hussey 1:14:50 Exactly.

Sadia Khan 1:14:50 So take note. [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 1:14:51 I was gonna say.

Sadia Khan 1:14:52 Yeah. [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 1:14:52 I was gonna say.

Sadia Khan 1:14:52 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 1:14:53 I think that if, if anything, it's a fun, uh, and lively example of, you know, w- what healthy disagreement looks like and I, I wish there was more of it in the world.

Lewis Howes 1:15:05 Yeah.

Sadia Khan 1:15:06 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:15:06 Beautiful.

Sadia Khan 1:15:06 I really enjoyed that.

Matthew Hussey 1:15:07 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:15:07 Beautiful.

Sadia Khan 1:15:08 Thank you.

Matthew Hussey 1:15:08 Me too.

Sadia Khan 1:15:08 But they've experienced being somebody's short-term fling every weekend, they'll start to get immune to connection

Sadia Khan 1:15:14 and invested in stimulation instead.

Lewis Howes 1:15:17 Interesting.

Matthew Hussey 1:15:17 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:15:17 Have you... What have you noticed or seen?

Matthew Hussey 1:15:20 F- for you it's that men want connection, but women are so jaded at this point that-

Sadia Khan 1:15:26 Mm-hmm

Matthew Hussey 1:15:26 ... they're not offering it.

Sadia Khan 1:15:27 Yeah. I feel like-