Rick Rubin Reveals His Secret to UNLOCK Your Creativity!

Rick Rubin 0:00 I came to realize recently what great means, but I didn't know most of my life I was aiming for great, but I didn't know what that was. And I've come to realize that great means it's a devotional kind of greatness. It's a gift to the universe. It's a gift to God.

Lewis Howes 0:13 Wow.

Rick Rubin 0:14 When we're starting a new project, I always have anxiety.

Lewis Howes 0:17 Really?

Rick Rubin 0:18 Always. Always. Because I don't know what's gonna happen. I'm not interested in having a playbook in advance. I'm interested in seeing where it's gonna go. There's a vulnerability required for the artist that if you're confident to the point that it disguises your vulnerability, that doesn't work. And it's not about perfection. That's the thing. It's like humanity reads in the mistakes.

Lewis Howes 0:43 What's your thoughts on manifesting? Do you believe in manifesting? Do you believe artists should be thinking that way, or what's your thoughts on it?

Rick Rubin 0:50 I believe in it a million percent. It's something...

Lewis Howes 0:54 I think you gotta have a dream. The School of Greatness. Really? [laughs]

Rick Rubin 0:58 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 0:58 Please welcome Lewis Howes. Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have the inspiring Rick Rubin in the house. Good to see you, sir.

Rick Rubin 1:06 Good to see you.

Lewis Howes 1:06 And thank you for being here. You have, um, an incredible journey, incredible story, and, uh, you've done some amazing things. You're a nine-time Grammy-winning producer, named one of Time magazine's 100 Most Influential People in the World. You've got a number one New York Time bestselling book, which has just taken over the world, uh, in a powerful way, and I've got so many questions I wanna ask you about this. But you've also worked with some of the most influential artists of our generation, which is really cool, just to sit and be with you to talk about some of this. Some of the people, like Red Hot Chili Peppers, Johnny Cash, Jay-Z, uh, Tom Petty, uh, Lana Del Rey, so many, Adele, uh, The Chicks, Kanye West, Lady Gaga, so many incredible, influential artists of our time. I watched part of your documentary series, and I just am fascinated by the way you think and by the way you move throughout space and time. I love that you're an avid meditator and that you walk around barefoot pretty much every single day. I think you had to wear shoes here today just to enter the building.

Rick Rubin 2:12 Just to get in.

Lewis Howes 2:12 But otherwise, 99% of your life is barefoot.

Rick Rubin 2:15 Yes.

Lewis Howes 2:16 And, um, something that I feel like a lot of people struggle with is tapping into their creativity,

Lewis Howes 2:24 and I think a lot of people are born with an artistic expression inside of them, but then it gets diminished over time. A lot of people, not everyone. And I'm curious, do you feel like... Have you-- When have you felt like you've been most insecure in your creative endeavors? Because you seem so confident. You have hit after hit. Everything you touch turns into gold seemingly, but I'm also assuming that not everything works out the way you envision. Do you ever feel insecure with your artistic expression, or are you always confident?

Rick Rubin 3:03 I'm confident with artistic expression, um, because the, my only goal is to make something that I like, and I know that I can keep working on it until I like it. So in some ways, there, there's no pressure because I'm, the goal is to make the thing that I like. I know what I like. If I don't like it, I keep working, and eventually, we get to a place where we like it.

Lewis Howes 3:27 Yeah. Do you ever face the inner critic of, "Well, what if other people don't like this?"

Rick Rubin 3:34 No, I don't consider them at all. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 3:36 Really?

Rick Rubin 3:37 Yeah. I, something I say in the book is that the audience comes last, and I believe that. I, I, I'm not, um, I'm not making it for them. I'm making it for me. And it turns out that when you make something truly for yourself, you're doing the best thing you possibly can for the audience.

Lewis Howes 3:59 Mm.

Rick Rubin 3:59 So much of why, um, if you go to the movies, so many big movies, just not good, it's because they're, they're not being made by a person who cares about it. They're being made by people who are trying to make something that they think someone else is gonna like.

Lewis Howes 4:17 Mm.

Rick Rubin 4:18 And that's not how art works. Art doesn't-- That's something else. That's not art. That's commerce. So if we're making art, we're making... It's, it's almost like, it's almost like a diary entry.

Lewis Howes 4:32 Mm.

Rick Rubin 4:33 So it, can someone, could I be concerned that someone else might not like my diary entry? Doesn't make sense. You know? It's, it has nothing to do with them. My, my diary entry has nothing to do with anyone else. So everything we make as artists are essentially diary entries.

Lewis Howes 4:52 That's interesting, and it's also, most people never want the world to see their diary, right? It's like you kinda keep it closed off. You keep it to yourself. You almost feel embarrassed if someone found your diary, if it's really personal, intimate, you know, fears or concerns or hopes and dreams.

Lewis Howes 5:08 So how does someone write or create something for themself in their own personal diary but also want to share it with the world and not allow the criticisms to affect them?

Rick Rubin 5:20 That's where the, um, the courage of the artist comes in-

Lewis Howes 5:25 Mm

Rick Rubin 5:26 ... which is this is who I am. And i- in my case, I'm less concerned with the result. So I think it, uh, that's a lot of it. It's like I'm not making it for someone else to get their reaction. I'm making it to have my experience, and as soon as I decide to share it, in my mind, it's a success because I care about it enough, I like it enough for other people to see it. If other people, they can like it or not. That's up to them, and that's, that's their thing. You know? That's about them. That's not about me.

Lewis Howes 6:02 Why do you think so many people struggle with the opinions of others when they're sharing their art to the world?

Rick Rubin 6:08 I think it's a natural human thought. I, I, I don't know if it was always the case

Lewis Howes 6:13 'Cause you don't have that at all, it sounds like

Rick Rubin 6:14 I don't have that at all. I don't have that at all.

Lewis Howes 6:17 But it seems like 99% of people have that. It seems like it. Maybe I'm wrong.

Rick Rubin 6:23 Yeah, I think the best artists tend not to have that or find a way to turn it off.

Lewis Howes 6:27 Really?

Rick Rubin 6:27 And, and a big part of my job with artists is helping them turn it off. It's like we're not, we're not thinking about singles, we're not thinking about chart position, we're not thinking about anything but making the most beautiful, honest, true thing we can. And when I say honest and true, it could be fiction. Do you know, do you know what I'm saying?

Lewis Howes 6:47 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 6:47 It's not, uh... It's the thing that's touches us and excites us and surprises us, which is also interesting, the fact that we can make something that surprises us. Happens every day.

Lewis Howes 7:02 Yeah. You talk about magic a lot. You know, I've seen that in, in your book, but also in the documentary series about, uh, you know, the work you've done. And

Lewis Howes 7:11 how does someone tap into their own magic when they have such a critical mind, self-criticism, but also family, critics, managers, all that other stuff criticizing what's good and what's not good? How do, how do, how do you coach someone to actually eliminate or diminish decades of conditioning within a week or two [laughs]

Rick Rubin 7:36 Yeah

Lewis Howes 7:36 ... to make their art?

Rick Rubin 7:38 I would say the, um... It, it comes down to a, like a personal reaction to something. If I, if I gave you two different foods and I asked you to taste them, you wouldn't have a hard time telling me which one you liked if you really liked one and didn't like the other. So if you had people around you saying, "No, but this other one that you don't like, that's the good one."

Lewis Howes 8:08 Mm.

Rick Rubin 8:08 That-- No one could convince you that the thing that tastes bad to you tastes good to you. So it's, it's a very simple-- It's such a simple idea, getting to what do I actually like? No second guessing. No... It doesn't go past... And, and it doesn't have to stand for anything. It doesn't have to represent you. It's just, "This is the thing that tastes good to me. What do you think?" That's, that's our whole job is, "This tastes good to me. What do you think?"

Lewis Howes 8:40 When an artist is... You kn- you mentioned commerce and you mentioned art. When an artist is struggling financially, and they're like, "I wanna make things that I enjoy that taste really good for me, but I've been doing that for five, seven, 10 years and it doesn't taste good for anyone else.

Lewis Howes 8:57 How can I make a living around my art? Or should I not think about my art as making a living, but I should be thinking about commerce separate from the art?"

Rick Rubin 9:06 I, I think dividing them is a really healthy idea.

Lewis Howes 9:10 Interesting.

Rick Rubin 9:10 And that having a job that supports you so that you can be free in your art is ultimately what's best for the art.

Lewis Howes 9:17 Really?

Rick Rubin 9:18 Yeah. Now, you can get a job related. You know, you can get a job in the industry you're interested in. You can get a job, if you're a painter, you can get a job in a gallery. You can be around it. Um, and then also when you do something like that, if you were to work in a recording studio, you may decide, "This is not for me." You know, we don't really know. We, we have ideas of what we wanna try, but then when you try them, sometimes, yes, that works, sometimes you don't.

Lewis Howes 9:48 Mm.

Rick Rubin 9:48 So many people get on a track when they're young. I have a, a cousin who, um, went to school to become a dentist, and he was a dentist for years. And after 15 or 20 years, just like, "I can't do this. I- this is- I don't wanna do this." It was a wrong choice. So many people live a, an unhappy life sticking to a program from when they were younger, and we have to find, like, you, you are speaking to people now versus playing sports.

Lewis Howes 10:22 Right.

Rick Rubin 10:22 It's a big change.

Lewis Howes 10:23 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 10:24 But it seems like a really positive change for you.

Lewis Howes 10:26 Yeah. Yeah.

Rick Rubin 10:26 But it wasn't what you set out to do originally.

Lewis Howes 10:29 Right. Yeah. You've been doing this for how long now, producing music, for 40 years?

Rick Rubin 10:33 Probably about 40 years.

Lewis Howes 10:34 Roughly 40 years.

Rick Rubin 10:34 Close to 40 years.

Lewis Howes 10:36 Has there ever been a time where you felt like it was stagnant for you, or you weren't creatively inspired, or you felt like it was dull? It wasn't this awe or magic that you were wanting.

Rick Rubin 10:48 It was-- It's always magic.

Lewis Howes 10:50 Really?

Rick Rubin 10:50 It's always exciting. Um, I can't say that every moment of every project has been that, but there are always these glimpses of wonder that come through the, through the creative process that are staggering. And, um, they're very addictive. You know, being in a room where something's not happening, and all of a sudden it's happening, and you don't know why, and you don't know what changed. It's a very exciting feeling.

Lewis Howes 11:21 How often do you experience that feeling?

Rick Rubin 11:25 All the time.

Lewis Howes 11:26 Really?

Rick Rubin 11:26 All the time. Now, when I say all the time, we may start a project and maybe it doesn't happen for a few days.

Lewis Howes 11:31 Mm.

Rick Rubin 11:31 But then it starts happening.

Lewis Howes 11:33 What is that moment? And, and what is the feeling that you have, and what is it that you notice either in your mind or in the environment that is shifting for that feeling to occur?

Rick Rubin 11:45 It's an inner excitement. It's like a leaning forward. It's a cur- a curiosity of like, "Can we hear that again? What was that?"

Lewis Howes 11:56 Mm. Mm.

Rick Rubin 11:56 "What was that? I've not heard that before."

Lewis Howes 11:59 Really?

Rick Rubin 11:59 "That's interesting to me."

Lewis Howes 12:00 Really?

Rick Rubin 12:01 Absolutely.

Lewis Howes 12:02 So after f- four decades of doing this, you still get surprised by hearing new things?

Rick Rubin 12:07 All the time.

Lewis Howes 12:08 Really?

Rick Rubin 12:09 All the time. Why does this work with this? Who knows? And if I were to tell you the idea or if someone were to tell me the idea, I would listen to their words and think, "That's a terrible idea."

Lewis Howes 12:20 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 12:20 And then we try it and it's remarkable.

Lewis Howes 12:23 Wow. Can you give me an example of something that stands out for you?

Rick Rubin 12:27 Mm.

Lewis Howes 12:28 From maybe a, a, a well-known artist that people would know about or maybe someone completely unknown.

Rick Rubin 12:33 I can say something happened the other day where we recorded a song in a particular way with a particular instrument and it sounded really beautiful and then the artist said, "Well, let's try it, uh, I'm imagining it," and they described, uh, something so different and in the description it sounded terrible.

Lewis Howes 12:56 The way they explained it.

Rick Rubin 12:57 The way they explained it or, or the references. They gave me references of, "Well, if we do it like this band with this kind of a beat," and the, and I tried to imagine the same song that we just recorded this different way that way and in my imagination it did not sound good.

Lewis Howes 13:14 Mm.

Rick Rubin 13:15 And then I said, "Let's try it." And then they played it and at first it didn't sound good, but very quickly it got great and there's no way to know. There's no way to know. You can't... That's, that's a big part of it is, um, I see artists who get into arguments, like a band who gets into an argument, "Let's do it this way." "No, let's do it this way." And I'll always say, "Well let's just play it both ways and listen, see."

Lewis Howes 13:40 Mm.

Rick Rubin 13:40 "Let's see. Let's see what actually happens."

Lewis Howes 13:43 Right. And that might spark something completely new.

Rick Rubin 13:45 Absolutely.

Lewis Howes 13:46 They both might suck.

Rick Rubin 13:47 Absolutely.

Lewis Howes 13:48 [laughs] And might s-

Rick Rubin 13:48 Yeah, yeah

Lewis Howes 13:48 ... let's try another way.

Rick Rubin 13:49 Or they both might be great and sometimes when they're both great it's like, oh, maybe this is better for the chorus, then this other thing actually can work as a bridge. We weren't even looking for a bridge.

Lewis Howes 13:57 Yeah. That's fascinating. In this, uh, documentary series about you and your facility and kinda your life, uh-

Rick Rubin 14:05 The Shangri-La doc series?

Lewis Howes 14:06 The Shangri-La, yeah. Powerful. I'm, I'm not all the way through it. I've done the first episode and a half.

Rick Rubin 14:11 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 14:12 Someone in the first episode says, "Rick helps people be the best version of you." And I'm curious who helps you become the best version of yourself?

Rick Rubin 14:22 Probably, I, I would say now my family.

Lewis Howes 14:25 Oh.

Rick Rubin 14:25 You know, having a family, but also I'm, I have some, some really, um, hard-driving friends like, you know, you met Laird Hamilton. Someone like, if you have someone like Laird in your, your life, being around people like him make you better at being a human being.

Lewis Howes 14:44 What's the biggest thing you struggle with today?

Rick Rubin 14:48 I think that there are a lot of fun things to try and finding time to-

Lewis Howes 14:55 Mm

Rick Rubin 14:55 ... do all of the things possible, the, the exciting things that I'm, I wanna try.

Lewis Howes 15:01 Right. 'Cause how do you pick and choose the projects you work on and the artists you work with? Is it a, is it a feeling? Is it relationships you have with their managers? Is it-

Rick Rubin 15:11 Yes

Lewis Howes 15:11 ... "Yeah, I wanna try this new thing and let's bring 'em in"? Is it-

Rick Rubin 15:14 It usually starts with meeting the artist and, um, just if there's a connection with the, the human and it, that's usually how it starts.

Lewis Howes 15:25 How often does that happen then? 'Cause I'm assuming a lot of people wanna work with you, so is it, you know, every Monday people will s- you know, managers will send their artists to you and they'll have an interview process with you for an hour or two and then you'll get a vibe and see if you wanna work with them? Is there a waiting list? How does that work?

Rick Rubin 15:41 Uh, it honestly doesn't happen that often because I'm always in different parts of the world and I'm not really part of the system.

Lewis Howes 15:48 Mm.

Rick Rubin 15:48 So if you were to go to, if you got signed to a record company and they showed you a list of all the producers to work with, I'm not on anybody's list.

Lewis Howes 15:55 Interesting.

Rick Rubin 15:56 So it, someone would have to seek me out outside of the normal system to find me and then it either would or wouldn't happen.

Lewis Howes 16:04 Interesting.

Lewis Howes 16:05 What do you see is the thing that holds people back the most from being their most creative and best self?

Rick Rubin 16:15 I think it's being concerned what other people think and a, a feeling of that the people who make great things are somehow special and that they're not special.

Lewis Howes 16:29 Mm.

Rick Rubin 16:29 And that's just not true. We're all, everyone has the capability to make great things and none of us are special.

Lewis Howes 16:39 But it seems like a lot of people, they're focused on what other people think, like you said, and it almost, it, it blocks them into this kind of rut feeling I guess, that they feel like they're stuck in a rut. I don't know if you've heard this before with a lot of your artists, but with, with me as a writer and an author I've heard so many people come to me say, "I wanna write a book." And I ask them, "How long have you been, had this idea that you wanted to write this book about this thing?" And some people will say five, seven, 10 years, but they've been worried about what people think or they feel creatively stuck in a rut. Do you ever feel stuck in a rut? And if so, how do you personally get out of that?

Rick Rubin 17:17 I think taking action is a really great thing and not, not setting up barriers of entry like, um, I can imagine a musician saying, "I can't play this song 'cause I don't have the right guitar" or, "I don't have the right equipment to do it." And there are no, um, barriers to entry. There's always a way. I come from a punk rock background-

Lewis Howes 17:37 Uh-huh

Rick Rubin 17:37 ... so in punk rock it was a do it yourself mentality and, um, you know, I started my first record company not knowing, not knowing that was something you can do. It just really happened automatically. I wanted to start making records. I wanted people to hear 'em. I never knew that you could get signed to a label. I just thought, well if you wanna make a record you make a record.

Lewis Howes 17:59 Mm.

Rick Rubin 17:59 So I made records and, you know, print up 500 copies of a seven-inch single for example. So I, I think there's always a way. You don't have to wait for permission from someone else. Um, I think that's a big part. People are waiting for permission.

Lewis Howes 18:16 Mm. To actually make their art.

Rick Rubin 18:18 To make their art. Someone has to say- You know, I'll hire you to do this, or I'll publish your book if you write a book, or set the stage to m- to allow you to do it. But I don't think that's the way great things are made.

Lewis Howes 18:33 When you did those... When you printed those first 500 singles, what was your dream or your vision? Was it, "Okay, now I'm, I'm gonna... How do I sell these? How do... Am I gonna give them away for free?" What was the process for you?

Rick Rubin 18:45 Combination of giving them away for free and selling enough to be able to make another one. That was always... E- any of the things I've made, it's always been about sustainability.

Lewis Howes 18:54 Mm.

Rick Rubin 18:55 As long as I can make another one, it's a success.

Lewis Howes 18:59 But at this point, you know, you're sustainable probably for life, I'm assuming, with the success you've had, so you don't have to make something to try to make your money back, you know, or get your time back or whatever. So what is the vision now with-

Rick Rubin 19:13 It's still... I still think in those terms-

Lewis Howes 19:15 Really?

Rick Rubin 19:15 ... though I want... I, I feel like I wanna make it where it's sustainable by itself.

Lewis Howes 19:22 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 19:23 Uh, there's something that feels good about that-

Lewis Howes 19:25 Yeah

Rick Rubin 19:25 ... that you make something that can live on, not because of an endowment.

Lewis Howes 19:30 Yeah. That's interesting. I know you're-

Rick Rubin 19:32 I don't know why. I don't know why that is.

Lewis Howes 19:34 Really?

Rick Rubin 19:34 But I... That's just my... And maybe it's just the way I was brought up. May just be.

Lewis Howes 19:38 What does an artist need to be thinking and feeling at the same time to create great art?

Rick Rubin 19:44 I would say thinking is the least part of it. It's much more about feeling and, um, m- being true to themselves, whatever that is. Feeling, feeling their truth.

Lewis Howes 20:01 And how do you know when an artist is being truthful in front of you?

Rick Rubin 20:05 It's a fe- it's just a feeling.

Lewis Howes 20:06 It's a feeling.

Rick Rubin 20:07 I feel it. Feel it.

Lewis Howes 20:08 Yeah. I think, uh, something you said was, "I have no skill set. It's all intuitive. It's not what's in my head. It comes through me."

Rick Rubin 20:17 Yes.

Lewis Howes 20:19 So you're not analyzing or thinking about it. You're saying, "Huh, something doesn't feel right."

Rick Rubin 20:23 It starts with a feeling always. I... It starts with a feeling. The analysis comes in later to try to understand either the feeling, if there's a reason. Like, if I'm just feeling something, I can experience it and be fine. If we have to act on the feeling, then it's like, okay, this feels like this. Can, can I... Is there a way to figure out why?

Lewis Howes 20:46 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 20:46 Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. And if you can figure out why, or if you think you know why, then you can say, "Hmm, could it be this, this, or this? Let's try those things, see what happens."

Lewis Howes 20:57 Do you have a process when you're starting the first session with an artist after you've been introduced and you say, "Okay, um, let's do this. We're gonna work together."

Lewis Howes 21:06 Do you have a process where you set a personal intention that you don't tell them, but then also you tell them what the intention is for your time working together?

Rick Rubin 21:16 Um, I'll say when we're starting a new project, I always have anxiety.

Lewis Howes 21:21 Really?

Rick Rubin 21:21 Always. Always. Because I don't know what's gonna happen. You know, there's a real question mark when we walk in to start, and I know that it could go a lot of different ways, and I don't have... I'm not interested in having a playbook in advance. I'm interested in seeing where it's gonna go, and it's scary because it could not go good. And sometimes there's an ex- you know, some artists have an expectation that I'm gonna do something.

Lewis Howes 21:50 Mm.

Rick Rubin 21:50 And I can't do anything, [laughs] you know?

Lewis Howes 21:52 Right.

Rick Rubin 21:53 It's like-

Lewis Howes 21:53 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 21:54 ... it's either gonna happen or it's not gonna happen. So it... But then usually within, sometimes it's the first day, sometimes it's the third day, sometimes it's the second week where something happens, like, whoa, what was that? How did that happen? And then that might give us a clue. It's like, oh, this is, this is what it wants to be. And that may change also. It may... That may be the first inclination. It could start that way, and then it makes a left turn, turns into something completely different. The, the work itself tells us where it wants to go. So because we have... The reason it's so scary is 'cause we have so little control over it. That's what's scary.

Lewis Howes 22:29 There's no control.

Rick Rubin 22:30 None.

Lewis Howes 22:32 And if an artist has a big expectation, "I need to put out a record that's gonna do well. I need to make money. I need to make the label happy," whatever it is, "My, my fans need to love this," then that could feel like a lot of pressure. But do you allow that pressure to affect you?

Rick Rubin 22:46 No, because the... I know it's not in the interest of the work.

Lewis Howes 22:49 Mm.

Rick Rubin 22:49 It's like we're all on the same page. Even the, even the people we're ignoring, the, you know, the record companies, the managers, the agents, the people who are yelling, "I need this, I need this now," ultimately for everyone involved, if the artist makes the best possible work that they can, everybody wins. It's just that no one involved in the process understands what it takes for that thing to happen.

Lewis Howes 23:15 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 23:15 I had a conversation with a basketball player, a member of the Golden State Warriors, who told me, um, there's all this pressure now to do a lot of stuff on social media.

Lewis Howes 23:29 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 23:30 And he said, "And it's getting in the way of our playing."

Lewis Howes 23:34 Interesting.

Rick Rubin 23:35 And I said, "Well, if you tell the people who are asking you to do the social media stuff, 'Don't you want us to win?' It's like, if you want us to win, let us focus on winning." And he said, "They don't seem to care. They want us to do the social media stuff. They, uh, they want us to distract ourselves from the work of the game."

Lewis Howes 23:53 From the flow.

Rick Rubin 23:54 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 23:54 From the practice, putting in the reps-

Rick Rubin 23:56 Yeah

Lewis Howes 23:57 ... showing up.

Rick Rubin 23:57 And then, and then I say, "Well, if... Then it's up to you what's more important, to please them or to win."

Lewis Howes 24:04 Man, this is fascinating. Was there, um, was there, uh... What was the experience for you where the artist or the band came in and it was the fastest, best flowing process you've ever experienced, where just like everything was lining up, authenticity, truth, you know, raw realness was happening every, every day? And it was also, it was a great success for them personally to have the art be real and honest, but it also landed commercially and took off.

Rick Rubin 24:41 The first thing that comes to mind would be Johnny Cash, because he had gone, you know, 25 years-

Lewis Howes 24:47 Wow

Rick Rubin 24:48 ... of not having success, and he had been dropped from two labels. And when I signed him, he didn't, he didn't even know why I was interested. That really was the conversation. He's like, "What, why, what do you think, why do you think working with you is gonna be any different than working with anyone else?" Like, he had given up. Um, and to, for him to get into it, we recorded in my living room, and he would just play me songs on an acoustic guitar. And there was an honesty in what was happening there. We didn't know that we were making a record. At that time, we were just looking for songs. So he was playing me songs, it was almost like a way for us to m- to musically meet each other. He would play me the songs he loved, either from childhood or songs that he thinks he'd like to sing, um, or a song he wrote, and it was just a very honest experience. And then we went into the studio to, we picked some of those songs. We, we went through hundreds of songs, and then picked a handful to try to record, and we went, and when we went into the studio with the band, it didn't sound, it didn't have what the living room recordings had.

Lewis Howes 26:02 Mm.

Rick Rubin 26:02 There was some intimate honesty, and we'd never heard Johnny Cash that way before. Um, so that led to the first album, which was a solo acoustic album. Again, we didn't set out to make a solo acoustic album, but it revealed itself as that's the most interesting thing to do. And that ended up being very successful, and very successful with young people, which he had not experienced since the 1950s.

Lewis Howes 26:31 Wow.

Rick Rubin 26:32 Um, so that was a... And after that, after the success of that album, we made five more albums together, and he had confidence-

Lewis Howes 26:44 Right

Rick Rubin 26:44 ... based on the experience of the first one, which he'd expected nobody c- to care about.

Lewis Howes 26:50 Mm.

Rick Rubin 26:50 Really, uh, took, took hold with people. And then on, I think it was on our fourth or fifth album, um, he did a cover of Hurt, the Nine Inch Nails song, and that ended up being probably the biggest, you know, maybe the biggest hit of his life, certainly of his later life.

Lewis Howes 27:09 Wow.

Rick Rubin 27:09 And, um, and that was a real revelation.

Lewis Howes 27:12 How important is confidence for an artist, in your mind, to have? Because I've, I've been around some of the greatest athletes that are freaks of nature athletically, that are gifted beyond anything physically, who can do anything in practice, but then they lack the confidence in the game and they look like an average player.

Rick Rubin 27:32 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 27:33 Does that, is that the same thing with, with artists, singers, guitar players, you know, musicians, where there's, they could be so gifted, but if there's a time when the pressure is on to record, they don't have the confidence. Does that hold people back? Have you seen this?

Rick Rubin 27:48 I'll say it's, it's not as simple as that, because there's a, there's a vulnerability required for the artist that if you're confident to the point that it disguises your vulnerability, that doesn't work. So it's a d- it's like a dance between being wildly open and vulnerable, and commitment to do whatever it takes to get your work through. That combination, which is a difficult combination.

Lewis Howes 28:23 It's almost like what I'm hearing is, this is really interesting point, it's almost like you just have to have courage to be vulnerable, which is not really confidence. It's more of, like, you just gotta... If you're unwilling to be courageous with your vulnerability, you just won't be able to share your art.

Rick Rubin 28:40 That's true. There's... I'll say, though, to get up in front of people and sing takes a certain amount of confidence.

Lewis Howes 28:47 Yes.

Rick Rubin 28:47 It's just part of the, it's a hard thing to do.

Lewis Howes 28:50 That's true.

Rick Rubin 28:50 I couldn't imagine doing it.

Lewis Howes 28:51 That's true. My, a friend of mine, uh, just, uh, Rachel Platten, she just, um, she wrote a, a song called Fight Song that was, you know, really, really popular over the last six or seven years. But she had a, you know, she started a family over the last five years, so she's got two, two young kids, and she just played at the, the Troubadour a couple nights ago. And, um, I'd seen her play in the past where she was uber confident, but she hadn't played in a while. And so she came out and she's like, "Guys, I'm actually really nervous, and this is my first time playing, you know, kind of with a band with these new songs in a while, and I'm revealing myself of these new songs." You know, you could sense this, you know, vulnerability, which was actually beautiful.

Rick Rubin 29:33 Yes.

Lewis Howes 29:33 It was like we're rooting for her. You know, she m- she messed up a few times, but she kept going and she's like, "Hey, I'm gonna restart this, and thank you, guys," you know? But it was like, wow. And, and it made moments of, like, awe and magic happen.

Rick Rubin 29:47 Yes.

Lewis Howes 29:47 It was so cool.

Rick Rubin 29:48 Yes. And, and it's not about perfection. That's the thing.

Lewis Howes 29:51 Mm.

Rick Rubin 29:51 It's like humanity breathes in the mistakes, you know? In the... It's what, it's what's not ordinary. If it was o- if it was machine-like perfect, it's not so interesting.

Lewis Howes 30:04 Mm.

Rick Rubin 30:04 It's cookie cutter.

Lewis Howes 30:05 Right.

Rick Rubin 30:06 It's all the same. So it's the, it's the edges, it's the frayed edges

Rick Rubin 30:12 that make it interesting.

Lewis Howes 30:15 Talk about transcendence, you talk about manifestation, um, and the universe. I know you're a big meditator. How long have you been meditating for?

Rick Rubin 30:23 I learned when I was 14, and, um, it's been a, a big part of my life the whole time. I can't say I've done it con- continually.

Lewis Howes 30:32 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 30:32 Um, but I go through phases of- Five years on, two years off

Lewis Howes 30:37 Mm-hmm

Rick Rubin 30:38 Or s- or something might replace it that's another kind of a meditation. Like, I may go from a TM sitting meditation to learning Tai Chi-

Lewis Howes 30:47 Yes

Rick Rubin 30:47 ... and then Tai, Tai Chi will be- will fill the slot of-

Lewis Howes 30:50 Mm-hmm

Rick Rubin 30:51 ... my TM time.

Lewis Howes 30:52 Right. Transcendental Meditation, yeah. Um, and I also read that you really have never been into drugs or alcohol. Is that correct?

Rick Rubin 31:00 That's right.

Lewis Howes 31:00 I've never been drunk or high in my life.

Rick Rubin 31:02 Wow.

Lewis Howes 31:03 And, um, you know, as an athlete playing football, college football and professional football, it was kind of shocking when people would hear that from me because the stereotype is, you know, the dumb jock that just drinks and does keg stands. But I learned early on, I was telling you before, that my brother went to prison when I was eight, and when you go to a prison visiting room every single weekend, um, then you realize quickly you don't wanna go there.

Rick Rubin 31:28 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 31:28 And, uh, a lot of, a lot of guys were in there for drugs or, you know, doing bad things, and for me, I was just like, "Oh, I n- I don't even want to t- try some of this stuff because I don't know where this might lead. So let me just eliminate this from my life." Now, I've had sips here and there, but I've never been drunk. How has cleansing your mind of drugs and alcohol, of not really diving into it, supported you as an artist? And do you think drugs and alcohol can make artists be great?

Rick Rubin 32:01 Um, I can tell you that when I was going to high school, most of the kids that I knew would come home from school and get high, and the main reason was out of boredom.

Lewis Howes 32:14 Mm.

Rick Rubin 32:15 And just trying to fill time. And I never... I always feel like there's not enough time. Like, there's so much I wanna learn, there's so much I wanna read, there's so much I wanna try, that I'm not trying to turn off time.

Lewis Howes 32:31 Mm.

Rick Rubin 32:32 I'm interested in something different. Now, the idea of a hallucinatory experience sounds interesting to me, but I've not done it.

Lewis Howes 32:40 You've never done psychedelics or anything like... I've never done that either. I've always been... You know, I have a lot of friends that do it. I'm sure you do as well. Uh, and I don't know, for whatever reason, it's never excited me to try.

Rick Rubin 32:54 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 32:54 Maybe in the future.

Rick Rubin 32:56 Yeah, same. I feel like someday I, I will probably do it.

Lewis Howes 32:58 Right. Um, so y- have you been drunk or high?

Rick Rubin 33:03 I got drunk one time as part of a school assignment.

Lewis Howes 33:07 [laughs] School assignment. Well, what school is this?

Rick Rubin 33:10 Um, I went to Harvard for a summer between my junior and senior year of high school-

Lewis Howes 33:15 Wow

Rick Rubin 33:15 ... to start getting college credits, and I took a logic class and a design class, and they had a Harvard bartending class that I thought, "That's really funny." E- even as someone who doesn't drink, the idea of, like, having a degree in bartending from Harvard was funny.

Lewis Howes 33:29 Wow.

Rick Rubin 33:29 So I did it. And I thought of it like chemistry.

Lewis Howes 33:32 Mm.

Rick Rubin 33:32 The idea of mixing things is interesting.

Lewis Howes 33:33 Interesting. So only one time.

Rick Rubin 33:35 Yeah, we... The final exam was you had to mix, like, 30 different drinks and then taste them-

Lewis Howes 33:40 Right

Rick Rubin 33:40 ... to know what they taste like, and I got really drunk, and it was a terrible experience.

Lewis Howes 33:44 So you've never been drunk since then?

Rick Rubin 33:45 No.

Lewis Howes 33:46 You been high, or...?

Rick Rubin 33:47 No.

Lewis Howes 33:48 No.

Rick Rubin 33:48 I, I went, on my 40th birthday in Kauai, um, I prayed all day, and I did a ceremony where I smoked some marijuana.

Lewis Howes 34:00 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 34:00 The only time in my life. And, um, and I would say it had almost no effect.

Lewis Howes 34:05 No effect, yeah.

Rick Rubin 34:05 Almost no effect.

Lewis Howes 34:06 So you might've felt a little buzz or something, but nothing-

Rick Rubin 34:08 I didn't feel a buzz. I would say that when I looked out-

Lewis Howes 34:11 Mm

Rick Rubin 34:11 ... into, uh, the landscape, there was more clarity between the foreground and background. That was one. And I remember we drove to dinner, and I drove, and driving felt more fun than usual, like playing a video game.

Lewis Howes 34:27 Mm-hmm. Sure, sure, sure. But you weren't really high or whatever. That's fascinating. So never really drunk or high-

Rick Rubin 34:32 No

Lewis Howes 34:32 ... except for a social experiment or, you know, a one-time trial thing. Um, I don't think I've met many people who's never been drunk or high like me, so that's pretty interesting. Maybe that's the Pisces in us, you know. Maybe that's the-

Rick Rubin 34:44 Maybe. And, you know, Pisces have a, a tendency to go the other way of-

Lewis Howes 34:48 Mm. Everything else

Rick Rubin 34:49 ... we, we are addictive people-

Lewis Howes 34:51 Yes

Rick Rubin 34:51 ... historically.

Lewis Howes 34:52 Yes.

Rick Rubin 34:52 Pisces.

Lewis Howes 34:53 That's why, one of the things is I don't think if I would've gotten into alcohol or, or some type of drug, I think I would've become addict- I would've been extreme with it.

Rick Rubin 35:01 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 35:02 So I've tried to be extreme in more healthier ways, I think, for myself. Now, the stereotype is, or the generalization is, that a lot of artists smoke weed or do drugs or experiment with alcohol or do these different things, and they talk... You know, maybe this is my own perception of it. They talk about it in their creative process, right? "I was high when I did this, and it, it gave me all these creative ideas." Um, how do you view that, of when artists are working with you, are they smoking, are they drinking, you know, when they're with you, or do you try to help them eliminate that to clear their mind?

Rick Rubin 35:39 Um, I want people to do what they wanna do. I have no, um, no opin- i- if, if I see someone doing something that's interfering with their work, I'll talk about it.

Lewis Howes 35:50 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 35:50 But if it's not interfering with their work, that's their business.

Lewis Howes 35:54 Have you ever seen an artist that you knew had a history of alcohol or smoking marijuana or some type of drug that when they worked with you, they weren't... They were clear of all drugs and substances, and they were actually able to create something beautiful and magical?

Rick Rubin 36:15 Well, I saw the Chili Peppers go from a band that were very dysfunctional, um, on a lot of drugs, which I didn't really know. I just knew that when I met them, the feeling in the room was one I didn't wanna be around. Um, and then I met them years later, and they had gotten clean. Um- And I felt like it was a different group of people, and then we ended up making, uh, Blood Sugar Sex Magik, which w- ended up being a very successful album for them. And then I produced most of their albums since

Lewis Howes 36:47 When they were clean and, you know. That's interesting. Do you think that people overall make better work as artists when they are clear-minded without substances?

Rick Rubin 36:57 I think over the long term that's probably the case, but there are many great artists who use, uh, something like marijuana as a... Some people have told me that they can hear music in a different way. Again, I haven't s- experienced it, so I can't say, but some people have told me that they hear music in a different way when they smoke, and they can access their creativity. Um, so I, I think you have to do your own testing.

Lewis Howes 37:27 Right.

Lewis Howes 37:28 Right. Do you think it's better to make... I don't know about better is the right word, but do you think it's more impactful to make your art from a place of pain, anger, or sadness, or from a place of love, peace, and harmony?

Rick Rubin 37:46 I, I don't think it matters. I think, I think it's true to your experience. So if you're feeling anger and sadness, a sad, angry song will probably be good. And if you're feeling love and peace, then you're in the right frequency to m- create that kind of song.

Lewis Howes 38:00 Right.

Rick Rubin 38:00 You can also, sometimes if you're in a real pain, you can write a yearning song for love-

Lewis Howes 38:07 Mm

Rick Rubin 38:08 ... that can have, be very deep. One of the things about when you're in pain, um, you tap into, uh... You tap into things to, to... You, you're looking for... You're, you're not satisfied in your condition, so you're yearning for change, and sometimes the energy of l- yearning for change can lead to really beautiful music.

Lewis Howes 38:36 Right. Wow. Is there someone that you're able to talk about or share that spoke and created from a place of yearning when they worked with you, that later said it was an extremely healing process for them working with you for a few weeks on an album and, and, and expressing their diary in that way, and allowed them to heal and have lightness on the other side?

Rick Rubin 39:02 Uh, the most recent one was, um, I made an album, the last album of Kesha. And her, she had gone through a very difficult experience.

Lewis Howes 39:14 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 39:14 And she told me that it was a very healing experience working on the album, and different than any experience she'd had previously where it was much more about commerce before.

Lewis Howes 39:24 What's the most painful thing you've been through that you've had to heal and overcome?

Rick Rubin 39:30 Probably the biggest one was, um, you know, I was overweight most of my life, and it was... It would just n- it wasn't... I was not comfortable in my body, and I always felt like an outsider and felt like it limited what I could do.

Lewis Howes 39:43 Really?

Rick Rubin 39:44 Yeah. So I think probably weight was my biggest issue.

Lewis Howes 39:51 What was the, the root behind that, you think?

Rick Rubin 39:54 I think it was mostly bad information. Um, although my mom was obese, so I thought it's just genetic, and I tried everything. I tried every, uh, every type of diet. Nothing worked. And then eventually I found the, the correct balance and... You know, I was a vegan for 23 years, and I weighed 318 pounds as a vegan.

Lewis Howes 40:18 Wow. Yeah, you can be a sick vegan, or you can be overweight.

Rick Rubin 40:22 I was a-

Lewis Howes 40:23 Yeah

Rick Rubin 40:23 ... I was, I was very sick as a vegan, and I wasn't, uh, getting what I needed.

Lewis Howes 40:27 Right.

Rick Rubin 40:27 And it's a carb- it's basically a carbohydrate diet.

Lewis Howes 40:31 Yeah, it, and you can have all the sugar you want being a vegan, but that doesn't mean it's healthy for you as well.

Rick Rubin 40:35 Exactly.

Lewis Howes 40:36 So it's like, um... What do you think was... You know, it sounded like you tried a lot of different things for 20 years, but it didn't work, but you found the right combination. But was there something you needed to mend or heal emotionally that allowed you to shift internally?

Rick Rubin 40:51 It was just information.

Lewis Howes 40:52 Really?

Rick Rubin 40:52 I was always, I was always, um, willing to do it. I would say probably the biggest... Maybe there is an aspect, which is I thought I knew what was best, so there was a sense of turning over control to someone else.

Lewis Howes 41:05 Oh.

Rick Rubin 41:06 That was a surrender.

Lewis Howes 41:07 Wow.

Rick Rubin 41:08 Um, I saw, uh, a doctor at UCLA who a friend of mine recommended I go to. I knew it wasn't gonna work 'cause I had done everything and nothing worked. And, um, he put me on a particular diet, and I remember thinking, "It sounds terrible, but I... And it's not gonna work, but I'll, you know, I'll do what you say." I had no belief. And, uh, but I put my faith in him, or I, it, I gave up fai- I gave up, but listened and, uh-

Lewis Howes 41:39 And committed to the process

Rick Rubin 41:40 ... and committed to the process, and the weight fell off.

Lewis Howes 41:42 Really?

Rick Rubin 41:42 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 41:43 How long did it take? Was it like a six-month, year process?

Rick Rubin 41:45 Four- 14 months, and I lost 135 pounds.

Lewis Howes 41:48 Man, that's awesome. Congrats on that. [laughs]

Rick Rubin 41:50 Thank you very much.

Lewis Howes 41:50 Wow. And when was this?

Rick Rubin 41:53 12 years ago, something like that.

Lewis Howes 41:55 12 years ago. You look really healthy right now.

Rick Rubin 41:57 I feel good.

Lewis Howes 41:58 Maybe it's that, that, uh, that suntan, you know? Where- wherever you're at in the south.

Rick Rubin 42:01 I spend a lot of time in the sun.

Lewis Howes 42:02 [laughs] Yeah.

Rick Rubin 42:02 I'm, I'm a sun worshiper.

Lewis Howes 42:05 [laughs] Now, do you feel like, um, when you were able to, I guess, get that support, see the changes physically, did something transform inside of you spiritually to be a better artist once that transformation started to happen? Or did you think you were still making great art, you know, when you were 100 pounds overweight, would you say?

Rick Rubin 42:31 I, I think we were making great art the whole time. The differences between losing weight and then meeting Laird and starting to train and get into my body, because I was sedentary my whole life- And-

Lewis Howes 42:47 Just sitting all day

Rick Rubin 42:48 ... sitting all day or laying down all day. I liked laying down more than sitting. This is the longest I've been in a chair that I-

Lewis Howes 42:53 Yeah

Rick Rubin 42:53 ... since I've been on an airplane.

Lewis Howes 42:55 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 42:55 Um, with Laird, when I showed up to Laird's the first time, I couldn't do one pushup.

Lewis Howes 43:01 Come on.

Rick Rubin 43:02 Swear to you, could not do one pushup. And with his support, I worked up to being able to do 100 consecutive pushups, which was mind-blowing. Um, so what changed bet- between the weight loss and meeting Laird was I now see anything is possible, and that you could train for anything. There's nothing you can't do. You can't be the best in the world at something, but you can be a lot better than you are at anything you wanna put the time into learning, whatever it is. You could do anything, and that's a great inspiring feeling, and I feel like I bring that into the art, where I already had great confidence. But even more so, I now know anything is possible at any time.

Lewis Howes 43:59 Wow.

Rick Rubin 43:59 Just if you... You have to do the work.

Lewis Howes 44:02 So this was 12 years ago when this started to happen, right? And so if I've got my maths right, are you 60 right now?

Rick Rubin 44:10 Yeah, I just turned 60. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 44:11 Just turned 60 in March. I just turned 40.

Lewis Howes 44:13 If you could go back to your 40-year-old self, what would the, the number one piece of advice be for you at 40? If you can think about where you were then, who you were working with, the projects you were working on, the people in your life. Knowing what you went through the last 20 years, what would you tell yourself then?

Rick Rubin 44:32 I would always say, "Just have as much fun as possible."

Lewis Howes 44:35 Mm.

Rick Rubin 44:35 'Cause we, um, I, I'm a workaholic by nature, and I love making things, and I love making good things, and a great deal of time and effort goes into that. And, um, and I'm hard on myself in that way, in that I, I have high expectations. Um, and I think we can have fun, too. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 44:59 Yeah, of course. Yeah. Uh, what brings you the most joy?

Rick Rubin 45:03 I think probably quality time in nature with my family. That's probably the best. Being in a beautiful place, being close to my family, breathing fresh air-

Lewis Howes 45:14 Mm

Rick Rubin 45:14 ... walking on the beach, um, laughing together, reading together, watching movies together.

Lewis Howes 45:23 Mm.

Rick Rubin 45:23 Uh, you know, watching wrestl- you know, I like pro wrestling. Watching-

Lewis Howes 45:26 Yeah, of course

Rick Rubin 45:27 ... pro wrestling with my son's fun.

Lewis Howes 45:29 That's great. Are you more of a wrestling fan or a UFC now?

Rick Rubin 45:33 Always been pro wrestling.

Lewis Howes 45:34 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 45:34 UFC feels like they might hurt each other. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 45:36 They do hurt each other. [laughs]

Rick Rubin 45:37 That's why I like wrestling.

Lewis Howes 45:38 Yeah. [laughs]

Rick Rubin 45:38 It's like it, it's more, uh... Everybody's on the same side-

Lewis Howes 45:43 Right

Rick Rubin 45:43 ... for it to be the best show it can be.

Lewis Howes 45:44 They want it to be a win-win. Yeah, yeah.

Rick Rubin 45:45 It's a win-win.

Lewis Howes 45:47 Yeah. You talked about that in, you know, this documentary series about, you know... I love the video of you being, like, the ultimate promoter with the Beastie Boys in a commercial, like, just being this hype man promoter like, you know. Um, how much has, I guess, pro wrestling influenced you as an artist?

Rick Rubin 46:07 A lot. A lot, because it's, uh, it's a world where you never really know what's true. It's a world of mystery, and great skill is involved in what they're doing, and there's a story, and s- and it's a story sometimes of people who seem to hate each other. Do they hate each other? They might be best friends. You know, it's like we don't know. But sometimes they really do hate each other, and then the matches are different when they really hate each other.

Lewis Howes 46:37 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 46:37 But you never know when it is, so there's this, there's this sense of a... And I think it's more honest than any other form of any other sport or any other form of entertainment. See, it's funny. I say it's the only legitimate sport is pro wrestling-

Lewis Howes 46:52 Really? [laughs]

Rick Rubin 46:52 ... because it's the most like the world.

Lewis Howes 46:56 Huh.

Rick Rubin 46:56 In the world, we don't really know what's true. Everybody has a facade. People put on a, you know, a airs or a performance.

Lewis Howes 47:05 A mask and a-

Rick Rubin 47:06 Yeah, or the politician talks and we don't really know who they are. They say these things that are often written for them. We don't know. Um, so there's this, like, performative aspect of the world that wrestling, that's what the world's really like. We say that the, you know, wrestling is fake. It's like the world is fake and wrestling is real. [laughs] That's what it is.

Lewis Howes 47:31 [laughs] I wanted to go back into what you talked about what... You know, you mentioned transcendence, and I think you mentioned, you know, the universe having your back when you asked for an answer, uh, with this, you know, particular song with System of a Down. What is your thoughts on manifesting and manifesting something you want and alchemizing it into the world?

Lewis Howes 47:55 Do you believe in manifesting? Do you believe in a, uh, you know, artist should be thinking that way, or what's your thoughts on it?

Rick Rubin 48:02 Uh, I believe in it, uh, a million percent. It's something that I've experienced before I knew what it was.

Lewis Howes 48:14 Interesting.

Rick Rubin 48:14 So I, so when I say it's like, uh... I feel like it has to do with in- the purity of the intention behind what you're doing. If your intention is pure, and you're doing it for the right reasons, it seems like things tend to work out.

Lewis Howes 48:33 Ugh.

Rick Rubin 48:34 And that ends up being, um, a, a manifestation mindset, but it didn't start for me that way. It just was like, I really believe in what I'm doing. I really care about it. I want it to be the best it could be for me, and I'm excited to share it. And the results have shown me that- You can manifest things

Lewis Howes 48:58 Mm

Rick Rubin 48:58 It happens. It's, it... But I'll say when I do it, it's never based on the outcome.

Lewis Howes 49:05 Ooh, what do you mean?

Rick Rubin 49:07 I'm never asking for a result.

Lewis Howes 49:11 What are you asking for?

Rick Rubin 49:12 I'm asking for, to, to rise to the occasion, to make the best thing that I can, for the thing that I make to be great. Great is a vague word. I don't know what great means. I came to realize recently what great means, but I didn't know. Most of my life, I was aiming for great, but I didn't know what that was. And I've come to realize that great means it's, it's a devotional, it's a devotional kind of greatness. It's a gift to the universe. It's a gift to God.

Lewis Howes 49:40 Wow.

Rick Rubin 49:41 If you're making, if you're making a gift to God, there's no greater, uh... You can't put more into it than that.

Lewis Howes 49:51 Uh-huh.

Rick Rubin 49:52 You know? You can't... What about the single? What about, what about what someone's gonna say? Who has anything to say if we're making a gift for God, that there's... You're putting all of your purest intention into this thing for the universe.

Lewis Howes 50:08 Wow.

Rick Rubin 50:09 That's where it's at. I didn't know that. I, I came to realize that recently. I, again, my word was greatness.

Lewis Howes 50:15 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 50:15 Greatness. That was the word of what I was shooting for.

Lewis Howes 50:18 Uh-huh.

Rick Rubin 50:19 But I've come to realize what it is.

Lewis Howes 50:21 Wow. You, you have a whole, you know, kind of section about greatness and success in The Creative Act: A Way of Being, which is, which I loved your explanation in there. Um, that is fascinating. So greatness for you, what I'm hearing you say, is a, is a, is a pure gift of yours to God.

Rick Rubin 50:38 Yes. And it's a, it's a gift of yourself to God. It's like, "This is the best I can do. This is my offering. This is what I have to offer."

Lewis Howes 50:50 Mm. If you think of a formula for manifesting as an artist, what would that formula be?

Rick Rubin 50:58 I don't think there's a formula.

Lewis Howes 51:00 Is there an art to manifesting?

Rick Rubin 51:04 I don't know. I don't... I, I think, um, it sounds like a shortcut, and I don't think there are shortcuts. I think it's always a, a, a, a version of doing the work, of finding your way into what it is that the universe wants you to do, and then really dedicating yourself.

Lewis Howes 51:29 How do you know what the universe wants you to do and when to do it, the right timing? 'Cause you could be like, "I have this idea for this thing. Maybe it's the right time now. Maybe it's five, 10 years away from now." How do, how do we really tap into that knowing?

Rick Rubin 51:44 I think it's, it's, it's situational, and I think the, again, if you're tapped into the universe, it tells you. It, it, it directs you. An example, I may have three different ideas that I'm, I'm excited about, and I kinda get them all going, and then one of them just seems to take off on its own, and one of them, no matter how hard I work on it, it never seems to come together. Can't find the right collaborators. Impossible. S- some obstacle's in the way. When that happens, I feel like it's the universe saying, "Now is not the time."

Lewis Howes 52:20 Interesting. Because, you know, I, I love this, and I also hear the other side of the, I guess, the coin where, you know, I don't know if you know Ryan Holiday-

Rick Rubin 52:33 Yeah, I do

Lewis Howes 52:33 ... which, like, the obstacle is the way, is his-

Rick Rubin 52:35 Yeah

Lewis Howes 52:36 ... kind of stoic philosophy-

Rick Rubin 52:38 Yes

Lewis Howes 52:38 ... of, like, when the obstacle is there and presents itself-

Rick Rubin 52:40 Yes

Lewis Howes 52:41 ... and you also feel like this is something you wanna do, like, you've gotta kind of go through that pain-

Rick Rubin 52:45 And, and-

Lewis Howes 52:45 ... and that, you know, to overcome it

Rick Rubin 52:47 ... there's a... That is part of it. I, I'm not saying to turn away from the obstacle.

Lewis Howes 52:52 Oh.

Rick Rubin 52:52 But I'm saying when the obstacles become insurmountable consistently and there's another path-

Lewis Howes 52:58 Right

Rick Rubin 52:59 ... that's going smoothly and you feel the same about both of them. You know, I-

Lewis Howes 53:03 Go for the effortless way. Yeah, the-

Rick Rubin 53:04 Well, pay attention. See w- when, when is the universe giving you a push? When is the, when is the wind hitting your sails the right way? There's something to it. I, I, I'm, I'm n- I would never suggest not fighting through the work.

Lewis Howes 53:21 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 53:21 It's, it's, it's grueling no matter what. It's grueling no matter what. That said, sometimes it feels like now is not the time.

Lewis Howes 53:33 Uh-huh. Yeah.

Rick Rubin 53:34 It's like n- n- all, everything you throw at it gets deflected.

Lewis Howes 53:38 Right. But this other thing is guiding you. It's-

Rick Rubin 53:42 Taking its own, taking on its own life

Lewis Howes 53:43 ... yeah.

Rick Rubin 53:44 Earlier, you, you asked about, um, what I perceive to be a shortcut, and a shortcut is how little can I get away with doing? And I think that the real question is, how much more can I give-

Lewis Howes 54:03 Mm

Rick Rubin 54:03 ... to the thing I'm making?

Lewis Howes 54:05 Right.

Rick Rubin 54:05 What else can I give to it? And, and thinking in terms of how much more can we do, not how much less can we do. It's not about shortcuts. It's not about getting it done. You know, it's not about a four-hour workweek. I loved it.

Lewis Howes 54:21 [laughs] Right.

Rick Rubin 54:22 You know, I loved it, but that's not... It's like whatever it takes for it to be all it could be. Um, commitment and total commitment and dedicating your life to making the best things you can, whatever it is.

Lewis Howes 54:41 Yeah. That's beautiful, man. Um,

Lewis Howes 54:46 and so do you, so you think that as a artist, we should be thinking about manifesting, but not in the terms of doing less, but putting the maximum into making it great.

Rick Rubin 54:57 Doing anything that's within our power. If it... I- it doesn't have to make sense Nothing has to make sense. You know, could be when I wear these purple socks, I can write a better song. Great.

Lewis Howes 55:15 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 55:15 Doesn't matter. Don't question it. Just do whatever works, do it.

Lewis Howes 55:21 Mm-hmm. Is it really art if you're making money off of it?

Rick Rubin 55:26 Absolutely. It does, it doesn't matter. The, the out- it's not about the outcome. That's what I'm saying, like you, if you don't make money or if you do make money, that has nothing to do with the art. Art is the art, and then whatever happens after happens after. If you make something that you love, I, I know if I make something I love, if more people like it, that's only a good thing. Now, I wouldn't change a word of it for someone else to like it.

Lewis Howes 55:54 Mm.

Rick Rubin 55:56 Do you know what I'm saying?

Lewis Howes 55:57 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 55:57 It's like I make the thing I love, and then present it to the world, and then if the world likes it, great, and if more people like it than less, better. Why not?

Lewis Howes 56:09 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 56:09 We're sharing something we love, something we think is beautiful.

Lewis Howes 56:12 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 56:12 So the more people who embrace it... But again, I would never change it for anyone else, because that's not what it's about.

Lewis Howes 56:18 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 56:19 It's not about that.

Lewis Howes 56:20 Right. With the artists you've worked with that you knew before they were global successes or their art, their music or, uh, you know, was known by many, what did you see became their biggest challenge once they became extremely successful? Because a lot of artists, I would think, want their art to be liked and listened to by people, and they wanna make a living, and more people like it, typically that's a good thing, typically. But sometimes we see artists who have this incredible rise of success and then seem to struggle with whether, whatever, depression, anxiety, maybe the pressure, "Can I do this again? Will I be able to have these many hits again?" What is the biggest challenge you see with artists becoming successful?

Rick Rubin 57:11 Probably the biggest one is, um, nobody prepares you for success, and you may have a dream of what it's like, and you may think the success is gonna fill some hole you have in your soul.

Lewis Howes 57:30 [laughs] What?

Rick Rubin 57:31 And then the suc- and you work your whole life for this success that's gonna fill the hole, and finally you get the success and the hole's the same. And it's, it creates hopelessness.

Lewis Howes 57:46 Wow.

Rick Rubin 57:46 'Cause you always, you're working towards this goal that's gonna fix the problem. But it's, the goal doesn't fix the problem. It, I would say, I can't, I can't, I can't say never, but I would say almost never fixes the problem.

Lewis Howes 58:09 What fixes the problem for people if it's not success?

Rick Rubin 58:11 It's something else.

Lewis Howes 58:12 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 58:12 It's so, it's something inside themselves. It's something inside themselves.

Lewis Howes 58:18 So do you think success can almost hurt someone more than before they have it after they have it?

Rick Rubin 58:25 It, it just, it depends on the person's temperament.

Lewis Howes 58:28 Yeah. Yeah.

Rick Rubin 58:28 You know, for some people, being famous is the greatest thing. It's all they ever wanted. And for some people, they become famous and it's the worst nightmare. That's not what they wanted. They miss their privacy. They miss their anonymity. They miss being able to go and do whatever they want and not be singled out or pointed to or, uh, talked to or e- even if people are nice, like it's a different, it's different. Um, and no one teaches you how to do that. Or you wanna, you know, go do something with your family, and then there are photographers there, and it's, it's very, uh,

Rick Rubin 59:06 awkward.

Lewis Howes 59:07 What, uh, what advice do you have for people that want to be famous? You know, success is one thing, but fame is another thing, and they don't always happen together. For someone that wants to be famous, what advice would you have for them?

Rick Rubin 59:20 I don't know. I would say I would look at why that is. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 59:23 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 59:23 I would maybe see, you know, consider therapy.

Lewis Howes 59:26 [laughs] Right. Have you ever done therapy yourself?

Rick Rubin 59:29 I've done, yeah, I've done all kinds of therapy.

Lewis Howes 59:32 What has been the biggest lesson you learned through therapy for you?

Rick Rubin 59:36 Um, I learned how to express my feelings clearly. Like, um, when I, the first time I went to therapy, I didn't even know how to talk.

Lewis Howes 59:43 Mm.

Rick Rubin 59:43 I didn't know how I felt about anything.

Lewis Howes 59:45 How old were you then?

Rick Rubin 59:47 Maybe 26.

Lewis Howes 59:49 So you learned how to express your feelings, then?

Rick Rubin 59:51 Yes. And to not only to, yes, express them, but also to actually un- you know, feel them in myself, to understand, not just feel, like, blocked off or frustrated, or, like, w- what's beneath it, what's actually going on.

Lewis Howes 1:00:05 And what is the biggest lessons that meditation or meditation practices has provided for you?

Rick Rubin 1:00:12 It, it provides a quiet space where the chatter, you realize that your, your thoughts are not you, and that left to your own devices, there'll be a lot of voices in your head just going all the time, and they're not you, and they don't mean anything, and they're really repetitious, and they're not, uh, working in your best interest.

Lewis Howes 1:00:44 So if your thoughts aren't you, then what are you?

Rick Rubin 1:00:48 I suppose you are the unchanging part of yourself that's always there from, uh, probably from the time you're born till the time you die, and maybe before and after. It's the, it's what's really inside. It's not, um- It's not changeable. It's what you came with.

Lewis Howes 1:01:22 And it's not the f- it's not the, uh, the thinking mind. It's almost being the observer of the thoughts.

Rick Rubin 1:01:30 The one who sees the thoughts. That sounds right.

Lewis Howes 1:01:33 Yeah. Observing the thoughts.

Rick Rubin 1:01:34 That was good. Thank you.

Lewis Howes 1:01:35 Yeah. [laughs] That's what I was hearing you say. Um,

Lewis Howes 1:01:38 when do you feel the most loved, Rick?

Rick Rubin 1:01:42 I would say in general I feel loved. It's an, it's a good feeling. Like, I feel, um... I feel spiritually connected and that's a... That gives me a great feeling of, uh, peace.

Lewis Howes 1:01:56 Where do you think you'd be in your life if you weren't a meditator? And where do you think you'd be if you allowed yourself to play with drugs and alcohol?

Rick Rubin 1:02:11 Yeah, I can't, I can't really predict. I would say meditation... Without meditation, I don't know who I would be. It's such a big part of who I am. Uh, informed so many... E- everything. Ev- my, my understanding of the world is based on learning to meditate when I was young, so I don't know who I would be without that.

Lewis Howes 1:02:35 Do you think you would have as much internal harmony and peace and external success without meditation?

Rick Rubin 1:02:42 No. Certainly not internal peace. I don't know about success.

Lewis Howes 1:02:47 I wanted to ask you a question about comparison. Uh, you know, you mentioned the, the NBA basketball player needing to post more on social media based on what their, their team or the coaches, or maybe not the coaches, but maybe the general managers wanted them to do. Uh, with, with artists, I see a lot of people competing and comparis- uh, being in comparison versus just sharing their truths in an authentic way. And sometimes on social media people are vulnerable because it gets attention, and then they're over-vulnerable, and then that becomes a game, uh, in itself. But in a world where everything is oversaturated seeming, uh, and there is a lot of competition for attention,

Lewis Howes 1:03:32 how can an artist stay true to their inner voice and not be in comparison, but be willing to collaborate and also see success in others and be okay with it?

Rick Rubin 1:03:43 Yeah, I think, I think stay- staying out of it. You know, like, not participating in that game. That's... It's someone else's game. That's someone else's game. I would suggest play your own game.

Lewis Howes 1:03:55 Mm.

Rick Rubin 1:03:56 I can remember having a conversation with a, a, a big... one of the biggest artists in the world who described an album that they were gonna make. And, uh, and I had just seen them play in a stadium full of people screaming and crying. Um, and it was not Paul McCartney.

Lewis Howes 1:04:13 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:04:15 Uh, and the album that they were describing was one that none of those 70,000 people screaming and crying wanted to hear. It was clear to- it was clear to me. And, and I remember saying, "That's not your hand." Like you play... When you're playing poker, it's not... You can't just play any cards. You play the... You play your hand based on the cards you've been dealt. So depending on the artist you are, like, um... It'd be like there was a, a time, I think, when Metallica felt like, "We don't really wanna be a heavy metal band. We want to be a pop band, 'cause pop bands are what's popular, and we have reached a ceiling being a heavy metal band." That did not go well.

Lewis Howes 1:05:04 Oh.

Rick Rubin 1:05:04 That was a bad idea.

Lewis Howes 1:05:05 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:05:06 They weren't playing their hand. They weren't, they weren't embracing Metallica.

Lewis Howes 1:05:11 Oh.

Rick Rubin 1:05:12 And I think if you embrace your part, it's your best chance-

Lewis Howes 1:05:18 Mm-hmm

Rick Rubin 1:05:18 ... being true to yourself, not saying-

Lewis Howes 1:05:22 Right

Rick Rubin 1:05:22 ... "Oh, well, those people over there are getting popular doing this other thing. I don't really like it, but it's really working for them. Maybe I could try that." Recipe for disaster.

Lewis Howes 1:05:32 So don't chase something that's not your hand.

Rick Rubin 1:05:34 No.

Lewis Howes 1:05:35 Yeah. But it sounds like... Correct me if I'm wrong, you know. The, the example I'm thinking of is, like, Lady Gaga came onto the scene doing, I guess, pop music, and became very popular, but then said, "Hey, I wanna do this more kinda jazzy, bluesy, like, Tony Bennett thing." And-

Rick Rubin 1:05:52 She was being true to herself

Lewis Howes 1:05:53 ... "And that's what I wanna do, and I don't care if anyone likes it."

Rick Rubin 1:05:55 Perfect.

Lewis Howes 1:05:56 "But it's what I wanna do at this season of my life."

Rick Rubin 1:05:58 True to herself.

Lewis Howes 1:05:59 And it may lose money.

Rick Rubin 1:06:01 Sh- uh, but she was not doing it because, "I think people will like this."

Lewis Howes 1:06:05 Right.

Rick Rubin 1:06:05 "This is working over here-"

Lewis Howes 1:06:07 Right

Rick Rubin 1:06:07 "... so I'm gonna s- try to catch their heat." She was not doing that. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:06:12 She probably knew people wouldn't like it. Only a small audience.

Rick Rubin 1:06:14 She didn't care.

Lewis Howes 1:06:15 Yeah, she didn't care.

Rick Rubin 1:06:15 She didn't care.

Lewis Howes 1:06:16 That was the thing.

Rick Rubin 1:06:17 She was true to herself. This is what she wanted to do, and she did it.

Lewis Howes 1:06:20 Wow. Were you, uh, in touch with her at all during that, that season, or...?

Rick Rubin 1:06:25 I can't remember if we talked then.

Lewis Howes 1:06:26 Oh, yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:06:27 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:06:27 I'm curious. But that's... I'm curious if she's just said, "Hey, I'm gonna do this and this is my thing, and..."

Rick Rubin 1:06:32 For sure.

Lewis Howes 1:06:33 That's pretty cool.

Rick Rubin 1:06:34 Yeah, yeah. No, I love it when an artist does something unexpected, whether it works or not. You know, it's like it's... They're being true to themselves.

Lewis Howes 1:06:41 Right.

Rick Rubin 1:06:41 They get to be a better artist doing that.

Lewis Howes 1:06:43 Whereas the other example is someone, you know, whether it's Metallica or whoever, is, like, chasing a bigger audience or something. Now, if that's true to them, that music, then cool. There's an audience there.

Rick Rubin 1:06:54 Absolutely.

Lewis Howes 1:06:54 Go for it.

Rick Rubin 1:06:54 Absolutely, yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:06:55 But if it's-

Rick Rubin 1:06:56 There's also something about staying true to yourself in terms of, um, if you come up making a certain kind of music and you get popular making that music, a feeling of, "Well, this is all anybody wants from me, so even though I don't care about it anymore, I have to keep doing it," that's a disaster as well.

Lewis Howes 1:07:17 Right.

Rick Rubin 1:07:19 It do- that doesn't work

Lewis Howes 1:07:21 Who has been the most musically gifted artist that you've been able to work with? Or maybe a few people that you're just like, they were so musically, like, talented and gifted. It was just...

Rick Rubin 1:07:33 There've been a lot.

Lewis Howes 1:07:34 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:07:34 You know, there've been a lot. I, I can say the first time I was in the studio with Carlos Santana and he started playing guitar-

Lewis Howes 1:07:40 [exhales]

Rick Rubin 1:07:41 ... it felt like this is coming from another planet. Or John Frusciante, when he plays, from the guitarist in the Red Hot Chili Peppers. When he plays guitar, it's a transcendent experience. Um-

Lewis Howes 1:07:54 Spiritual.

Rick Rubin 1:07:55 Yeah. And then there's a drummer named Chris Dave, who's best drummer I've ever heard. And no matter what he plays, anything he plays is the greatest thing you've ever heard. The simplest thing. He can make anything interesting just the way he plays it. Not the parts. Doesn't have to be complicated, doesn't have to be, "Look at me." Just the touch, the feel, the tone is, um, miraculous.

Lewis Howes 1:08:19 Eh. Something you said before is, "The only goal is to be the best version of ourselves." [smacks lip] Is there anything blocking you from becoming the best version of your, yourself moving forward?

Rick Rubin 1:08:34 I don't think so. Yeah, I, I wouldn't say I'm there-

Lewis Howes 1:08:38 Right

Rick Rubin 1:08:38 ... but I'm always striving. Always. Uh, al- anything I can do to get closer, I'll do.

Lewis Howes 1:08:43 Wow. Yeah, you're, you're willing to learn something new, you're willing to try something on. Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:08:47 Or change anything.

Lewis Howes 1:08:48 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:08:50 What do you think is the, uh, the best habits that an artist can have, that maybe you have individually, but also that you see in, in other artists?

Rick Rubin 1:08:58 I would say dedication to the craft, whatever, whatever their craft is. Dedicating themselves to it, taking it very seriously, and being free to play in it. You know, like, taking it seriously at the time we, at the time when it warrants being taken seriously, and having fun and being free in a play way to allow the thing that's worthy of being taken seriously to appear.

Lewis Howes 1:09:25 [laughs] Right, right. Taking it seriously and also allowing yourself to play in it as well.

Rick Rubin 1:09:29 Yeah. You- Well, the play always is where it starts. It starts in this playful way where nothing is serious and there are no stakes. And then through that, something appears.

Lewis Howes 1:09:40 Uh-huh.

Rick Rubin 1:09:40 And then in order to get that into condition to share, there's a grueling effort.

Lewis Howes 1:09:46 Yeah. [laughs] Take that seriously.

Rick Rubin 1:09:48 And sometimes it's, sometimes you do a grueling effort and then you realize, oh, that thing that happened the first day, that's the best version of it. But you don't know that until you've maybe banged your head a- against the wall for six months working on it, and then you realize, you know what? That first five minutes was the best.

Lewis Howes 1:10:03 That was it.

Rick Rubin 1:10:04 You can't know that until you go past... You know, you have to work past it-

Lewis Howes 1:10:09 Mm

Rick Rubin 1:10:09 ... to see this was the one.

Lewis Howes 1:10:12 This is the best version.

Rick Rubin 1:10:13 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:10:13 How often is it the first version is usually the best for you?

Rick Rubin 1:10:17 Um, I'll say the first version is often, if it's not the best, it's very instructive and holds a magic in it that is to be retained no matter what else changes. You know, a big part of it is just not screwing up what's good.

Lewis Howes 1:10:33 [laughs] Not messing it up.

Rick Rubin 1:10:35 No. There are all these stories of, you know, the demos being better than the album. It's easy to not know why something is good. You know, you make a demo and you think, "Okay, now when I get the professional musicians to play it, it's gonna be great. It's gonna be that much better." Maybe yes, maybe no. We don't know. We never know. We never know what's gonna happen when we do anything.

Lewis Howes 1:10:57 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:10:57 So to stay neutral and to keep every iteration along the way, and be willing to look back after you just spent months refining something to then say, "You know what? It was better three months ago. Throw that all away."

Lewis Howes 1:11:12 Wow. The Creative Act: A Way of Being. This is a, a powerful book. I think it's been on the NEW YORK TIMES bestseller list for 42 plus weeks in a row, I believe, right now. Um, this has been a game changer for so many different creatives, artists, and also people that don't think they're artists who have been buying this and tapping into their creativity, allowing themselves to express themselves more fully, more openly, more freely, more honestly and vulnerably. And, uh, I wanna, I wanna recommend this to anyone watching or listening to get a copy or two and give one to a friend. Really think about who in your life do you know has great talent, great artistry, or untapped talent that they should be expressing that more, uh, and giving that gift to God and to the universe, as you say so, so beautifully. Uh, again, think about who in your life needs this book. There's so many great... The thing I love about it is it's, you know, it's a bigger book, but every chapter is short, you know? And for me, I like short, uh, bits of wisdom that I can just open up at any time and read a few paragraphs, and I've got something great.

Rick Rubin 1:12:20 Open it randomly and read something.

Lewis Howes 1:12:22 Let's see.

Rick Rubin 1:12:22 See what comes up.

Lewis Howes 1:12:23 This is the, uh, this is the first thing here. I don't even have this earmarked, but I've got a lot of it earmarked. This says, "In the end, the sum total of, uh, of the essence of our individual works may serve as a reflection. The closer we get to the true essence of each work, the sooner they will somehow, at some point in time, provide clues as to our own." So that was, that was the first thing that opened up for me.

Rick Rubin 1:12:49 That's cool.

Lewis Howes 1:12:50 Yeah. [laughs] It was page 24- 245, so make sure you guys check that out. But there's... I love the whole section on, uh... You've got sections on greatness, you got a success, you got about listening, you know, inspiration. You talk about inspiration a- it appears in a moment. Um, and what d- what defines inspiration is the quality and quantity of the download at a speed so instantaneous it seems impossible to process. Inspiration is the rocket fuel powering our work. It is a universal conversation we yearn to be a part of, and I think that's really cool 'Cause so many of us are chasing inspiration, but a lot of times it comes to us, right?

Rick Rubin 1:13:32 It comes.

Lewis Howes 1:13:34 And it, and it's almost like getting out of the way and allowing for it to come in. That's what I love in the docuseries that you're a part of, Shangri-La. It's like you, you have an intentional energy of your environment. You create a space for it to come, and I think that's really cool, and a lot of people aren't, I think, thinking about their environment of spatial surroundings, their environment of people surroundings, their environment of what they consume of music or visual content or what they're reading. They're not intentional with it as much as I think they could be, which you're extremely intentional to allow for inspiration to come. Isn't that right?

Rick Rubin 1:14:12 Yeah. We're, we're all, um, all we are is made up of everything we take in, so the places we're in, the people we're around, the, the media we consume, that's all we are. So really curate what comes in for your highest, um, for your highest good.

Lewis Howes 1:14:38 Yeah. In, in the, uh, the Shangri-La, the, the docuseries, you know, in your recording studio and in your facility, it's all white. You know, there's no TVs. There's no clocks. The floor is white. The walls are white. You have this in, in space that is kind of like this void. You know, when I think of meditation, I, I really try to think about being no one, no thing, nowhere, no time, uh, so that inspiration can come to me as opposed to having the noise constantly distracting me or influencing me to think something. And so you create a white blank canvas for people to express, uh, and develop their art, and I think it's really beautiful. I mean, you guys paint the floors, like after someone comes in and does their work. You repaint the floor so that it's not dirty from the last artist of the past. You create a blank canvas every time an artist comes in, which is just so cool to think about. And, um, I love the intentionality behind how you allow for space to be evolved for people to draw inspiration. It's really, really cool. I want people to watch that docuseries called The Shangri-La, but also again, get a copy of this book, The Creative Act: A Way of Being. I've got, uh, three final questions for you, Rick, and again, I'm so grateful for your time here and for showing up and, uh, just being, being an inspiration to so many people and specifically in this interview right now. This is a question I ask everyone towards the end of our conversations. It's called the Three Truths, so it's a hypothetical question and scenario. Imagine you get to, uh, you know, Laird and Gabi continue to keep you fit and healthy, and you get to extend your life as long as you wanna be. Um, but eventually it's the last day. You can live as long as you want, but it's the last day for you in the future, and you get to create and learn and experience all of the things you wanna experience from now at 60 till, till that moment. Um, but for whatever reason, it's your last day and you have to take everything with you, everything you've created, everything you've worked on, everything you've written, everything you've spoken. We don't have access to it in this world anymore. Hypothetical scenario. But you get to leave behind three lessons, and this is all we would have to remember your information by, and I call it the Three Truths. What would be those three truths for you that you would leave behind?

Rick Rubin 1:17:04 I think it might just be one. It, it might just be be true to yourself. Know y- know yourself as best as you can to be true to who you are, and allow that person to evolve and change, um, as the conditions change, and to not be inflexible.

Lewis Howes 1:17:29 I love that. I wanna acknowledge you, Rick, for, I mean, putting this out there. I heard you talk about being kind of like a grueling process and some challenges here or there, some friction, some obstacles to get it out there. [laughs] It wasn't like this effortless thing. [laughs] Um, and I'm, uh, I'm assuming it might've been harder than an album, putting an album out there. Um, I wanna acknowledge you for sharing your gift with the universe and with all of us, sharing your greatness with so many people because you have, you know, a lifetime of wisdom and information and lessons, and to put it together in this way so that we can understand it, um, is really powerful. So I acknowledge you for creating this work of art, for coming on the show and, and talking so openly and honestly the way you have been, and you've... I've seen you on a lot of my friends' shows as well. And, um, for being an inspiration to so many people. Uh, people value you. They appreciate you. They respect you. And, uh, I hope you feel the love from so many people, and I would just wanted to acknowledge you personally for that. This question, you, you kind of answered it already, but I'm gonna ask you again and see what comes up for you. Um, what is your definition of greatness?

Rick Rubin 1:18:46 Greatness is what you make in a devotional act for a higher power beyond any worldly ideas of success.

Guest 1:19:00 You can do anything in the world with discipline, and if you don't have it, the world can do anything to you. You know, discipline is key. Um, the second one I always think would be is problem-solving. Like it can be chaotic. I'm the calmest person in the room, and in my head I'm already putting together [laughs]