By playing, you agree to uListen's Terms and Privacy Policy and YouTube's Terms of Service.

The 6 RED FLAGS You Need To Avoid In A Relationship! (WATCH OUT FOR THIS!) | Esther Perel

- Sign up for my FREE newsletter & get a dose of inspiration from our world-class guests, learn how to improve your life!

Esther PerelguestGreat Minds Lewis Howeshost

Jun 15, 20221h 43mWatch on YouTube

Summaries, chapters, transcripts, and FAQs on this page are made by uListen, not YouTube.

Great conversations run long. Their best ideas don't have to.

uListen is free on iPhone, iPad, Android, Chrome, and Claude.

See how

Transcript

95 min read · 19,389 words

0:00 – 0:35
Modern relationship myths: expecting one person to be your whole village
1. EPEsther Perel
  If you wanna really take on the big myths, it's the notion that we are looking for the one and only. We have never expected so much of our romantic relationships as we do today. With you and me together, we are going to create best friends, romantic partners. Seriously? One person for everything? One person instead of a whole village?
2. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
3. EPEsther Perel
  So that's the first myth, and-
4. LHLewis Howes
  This video is brought to you by Athletic Greens, and we'll hear more from them in just a moment. I think you gotta have a dream.
5. SPSpeaker
  The School of Greatness.
6. LHLewis Howes
  Really? [laughs]
7. SPSpeaker
  Yeah.
8. SPSpeaker
  Please welcome Lewis Howes.
0:35 – 3:07
Disasters as relationship accelerators: why crises trigger breakups and babies
1. LHLewis Howes
  Do you feel like... I think the stats before two years ago was 50% of marriages fail. Do you feel like the percentage has gone up since the last two years, or is it still kind of the same? Some people have figured it out, other people haven't, and people are, you know, s- somewhere in between.
2. EPEsther Perel
  So I'm not a statistician.
3. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh.
4. EPEsther Perel
  And in fact, it is lesser than for- than 50, and it depends by social class.
5. LHLewis Howes
  Okay.
6. EPEsther Perel
  Uh, more educated people marry later and divorce less.
7. LHLewis Howes
  Hmm.
8. EPEsther Perel
  Um, it's actually education and social class has something to do as well with, um-
9. LHLewis Howes
  Okay
10. EPEsther Perel
  ... with, um, duration of, of marriages. But I think what I would st- say as a start is that disasters are relationship accelerators.
11. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
12. EPEsther Perel
  And that means that what we've experienced in these last two years... I was here March 11.
13. LHLewis Howes
  I know, it's crazy.
14. EPEsther Perel
  And I went in lockdown March 14. And so I, I, that's why I will always remember when I... [laughs] The, the date of our last conversation. But what happens in, in a, in a period of disaster like this, and prolonged disaster, right? With prolonged uncertainty, is that you have a sense that, especially in the beginning, we really had a clear sense that, of mortality. Things suddenly felt much more fragile, and when life is short, when you have that acute awareness of life is short-
15. LHLewis Howes
  Hmm
16. EPEsther Perel
  ... then you'd say either, "What am I waiting for? Let's move in. Let's get married. Let's have babies. Let's. Let's go. Let's do because I don't know what's happens tomorrow." Or we say, "I've waited long enough. I'm not taking this anymore. You know, I'm gonna wait this out a little bit, but as soon as I can, I'm out of here." Because, uh, when, when you have a sense of mortality, when you have acceleration, you basically have a reorganization of your priorities.
17. LHLewis Howes
  Hmm.
18. EPEsther Perel
  What matters to me most? What can't I live without, and what won't I tolerate living with anymore? That has what, is what has happened. And so typically, research has always says, said that in pandemics, in disasters, in large psychosocial events like that, there is more breakups and more babies.
19. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
20. EPEsther Perel
  But we are just coming out of it, so the babies are about to be born and the breakups are now just proliferating, but we don't know, I think, the, the exact statistic yet.
3:07 – 5:13
Why second marriages divorce more—and why third marriages can fare better
1. LHLewis Howes
  Interesting. I think before you mentioned that something like 50% of marriages end in divorce, and then, you know, 70% of the next marriages end in divorce. There's something-
2. EPEsther Perel
  Second marriages have a higher rate of divorce than first marriages.
3. LHLewis Howes
  Why is that?
4. EPEsther Perel
  I think that there's a number of ways to explain it, but in, in, first of all, often children are older.
5. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
6. EPEsther Perel
  Second, there is a sense that, um, I waited too long in the first one to make this decision, and I no longer want to feel afterwards where I say, "I should have done this much sooner." There is less of a sacredness to the experience-
7. LHLewis Howes
  Hmm
8. EPEsther Perel
  ... and you feel like I, I was... The first time you feel like, you know, depending on if you come from divorce, of your, or your belief systems or your values about the, the, the stability of relationships, it, it means so much to break those vows sometimes. And then the second time, you've already done it once.
9. LHLewis Howes
  I've already done this. I don't need to tolerate this for 10 more years like I did the first time.
10. EPEsther Perel
  That's right.
11. LHLewis Howes
  And let me just-
12. EPEsther Perel
  There is a less of a sense of, of, of shattering of all the grand ambitions of love-
13. LHLewis Howes
  Hmm
14. EPEsther Perel
  ... and of marriage that you had engaged with.
15. LHLewis Howes
  Wow, that's interesting.
16. EPEsther Perel
  You've already done that experience once of dissolving-
17. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
18. EPEsther Perel
  ... this entire complex relational system that is emotional, psychological, economic, interfamilial, and you did it, and so it doesn't, it feels slightly less impossible, ominous.
19. LHLewis Howes
  It's not as scary the second time.
20. EPEsther Perel
  It's not as scary.
21. LHLewis Howes
  You've done it before. You know the pain. It's, you can handle it again.
22. EPEsther Perel
  Yeah. Third marriages is less.
23. LHLewis Howes
  It's less.
24. EPEsther Perel
  Yes.
25. LHLewis Howes
  Less divorces than third.
26. EPEsther Perel
  Less divorces.
27. LHLewis Howes
  Why is that?
28. EPEsther Perel
  I guess people have a sense that they finally have done either their personal work, they've grown up-
29. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
30. EPEsther Perel
  ... they've matured, they've taken responsibility, they've g- they've gotten the sense as the constant factor in all their relationship is them. [laughs]
5:13 – 8:38
“Conscious coupling”: therapy early, preventive mindset, and positive sentiment override
1. LHLewis Howes
  It's, uh, I was talking to you about this before we got on the interview, about how my entire life I've been the, uh, the, the centerpiece of, of relationships not working out. I've been the core, I've been the person who's been involved in the relationship, and therefore I've chosen and, and stayed in relationships that didn't line up with what I wanted. Um, in my most current relationship, uh, with Martha, when we started dating, I was telling you this, when we started dating, I said, "It'd be really cool to enter a new relationship with emotional accountability, with therapy, with support from an outside perspective, where we both are working on ourselves and we're getting clear if we're in alignment with our values and our vision and our lifestyle for what we wanna create, where we're not just connected Sexually or chemically, which is what I chose a lot in the past and stayed for, but more based on a different foundation. Uh, and it's been a beautiful experience for both of us to witness emotional accountability and therapy together when things are great, not when things are, you know, bad and you have to, like, repair something, but to try to build agreements as we build our relationship. And I'm such a fan of it, and I've been telling all my friends about this who are getting in relationships, like, you know, find something, find a book you can work on together, or a therapist, or something you work on together. Have you ever worked with couples who got into a relationship early when there wasn't issues and they started working with you?
2. EPEsther Perel
  Many.
3. LHLewis Howes
  Really?
4. EPEsther Perel
  Many, many, many, many. So the traditional v- uh, you know, idea of premarital counseling is one thing.
5. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh.
6. EPEsther Perel
  But there's also, you know... And people wanna talk about conscious uncoupling, but they could also call, talk about conscious coupling.
7. LHLewis Howes
  Yes.
8. EPEsther Perel
  Right? It's like s- in the beginning, you're not in your early 20s.
9. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
10. EPEsther Perel
  You're in your late 30s. You've had your experiences. You have a sense of what are the vulnerabilities that you bring to the relationships. You have a sense of what makes it hard to live with you.
11. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs] Yeah.
12. EPEsther Perel
  You know, as well. And, um, and you say, "I actually want us to go when we are still, uh, when we still have a lot of," what is called, "positive sentiment override."
13. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm. What does that mean?
14. EPEsther Perel
  It means that you get the benefit of the doubt.
15. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh.
16. EPEsther Perel
  That you're still in m- in, in multiple appreciation.
17. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
18. EPEsther Perel
  That you see the bright side of things.
19. LHLewis Howes
  Right.
20. EPEsther Perel
  That you see the cup half full, that you're not yet building res- resentment and deprivation and, you know, the things that sometimes accompany relationships on the bitter side of, of them.
21. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh.
22. EPEsther Perel
  And I think that I like it when people come early. I think it's fantastic. It... One of the big changes for me as a couples therapist over decades was that indeed we learn that people come to therapy when there are problems.
23. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
24. EPEsther Perel
  Therapy is a problem-ridden narrative. If everything's fine, why don't you go to therapy? And if you already need to go in the beginning, there must be something really wrong.
25. LHLewis Howes
  Right.
26. EPEsther Perel
  Because who goes... And that is so old for me. That has been scrapped, you know.
27. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh.
28. EPEsther Perel
  You go because you have a sense that you w- want to prepare yourself, you want to bring your strengths and your challenges from the beginning into the relationship and, and prepare it.
29. LHLewis Howes
  Yes.
30. EPEsther Perel
  And I think it is a fantastic idea. It doesn't mean that you already have problems. It means that you say, "I want to do a preventive approach."
8:38 – 14:43
Love story vs. life story: building a relationship needs different “materials” than attraction
1. EPEsther Perel
  "I want to preempt. I wanna be mature about it." And, um, and it's interesting because you talk about the distinction between chemicals and values.
2. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
3. EPEsther Perel
  Right?
4. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
5. EPEsther Perel
  Like, and, and you just posted the clip of a conversation that we had back then.
6. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh.
7. EPEsther Perel
  Exactly two years ago where I talked about the difference between a love story and a life story.
8. LHLewis Howes
  Yes.
9. EPEsther Perel
  It's a bit that. It's the... You c- you don't need too much consonance and, of values to love somebody.
10. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh.
11. EPEsther Perel
  You can-
12. LHLewis Howes
  What, what is the difference between love and life story?
13. EPEsther Perel
  The experience of a, of a love story, the word story is important.
14. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
15. EPEsther Perel
  Right? So the story of love is a story that can... I can fall in love with all kinds of people with whom I would never live a life with, that, uh, we come from completely different worlds. We have different aspirations, different values. But in the midst of that, something very precious unfolds between us in a very small container that is deeply intimate and often deeply erotic. It doesn't need, how do we negotiate children-
16. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
17. EPEsther Perel
  ... in-laws, economics, careers, uh, the political environment around us, all of that. W- we don't have to talk about any of this. In that beautiful container of intimacy and erotic intimacy lives a love story.
18. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
19. EPEsther Perel
  A life story is a negotiation with the whole world. A life story, first of all, goes through a developmental arc. I may meet you in my 20s, and now here I am in my 40s, 50s, 60s. So it's a developmental arc. It exists over time. It needs to include change.
20. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
21. EPEsther Perel
  It needs to include the addition and subtraction of new people, the death of people and the birth of people sometimes. It needs to include how we negotiate with all our friends. A love story can, uh, live alone in a little h- room [laughs] without-
22. LHLewis Howes
  Right
23. EPEsther Perel
  ... seeing anybody, you know, because it feeds on itself very, very beautifully. But a life story must include other people, a social circle-
24. LHLewis Howes
  Mm
25. EPEsther Perel
  ... a community, you know, activities, passions, hobbies, careers.
26. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
27. EPEsther Perel
  There's a lot of other things, and those demand a consonance of values-
28. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
29. EPEsther Perel
  ... of aspirations, of ambitions, the ability to not just foster the togetherness, but also to develop the differentiation.
30. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
14:43 – 17:44
Why dating starts with sex now: contraception, swipe culture, and sex as identity
1. LHLewis Howes
  visit athleticgreens.com/SOG. Again, that is athleticgreens.com/SOG to take ownership of your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance. You know, I feel like a lot of people that I've known in the past have entered a relationship through a sexual connection, a sexual chemistry, erotic experiences-
2. EPEsther Perel
  Mm-hmm
3. LHLewis Howes
  ... fun times, things like that. And then they start dating, and then they start entering a relationship based on that foundation as opposed to based on what do you see for your life. You know, what are the values, the background, the culture, the religion, the money, all these different things. Do you want kids? Do you not want kids? And I feel like that ends up being a, a struggle for a lot of people, myself included in my past, until I started, I tried something differently. Um-
4. EPEsther Perel
  You first had the sex, and then you met the person.
5. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs] Exactly. Yeah. And, and created this, a story about who the person would be, right?
6. EPEsther Perel
  Mm-hmm.
7. LHLewis Howes
  Without actually communicating enough and giving space and time to experience who the person was, right? And same for them with me. Why do you think most people start things that way, you know, in general, as opposed to, "Hey, let's give it time. Let's ask deeper, more intimate questions," like you have in your game. "Let's get to know each other." Why do you think that is?
8. EPEsther Perel
  First of all, that only began to happen with the democratization of contraception.
9. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
10. EPEsther Perel
  This is... Before the '68, this was not possible.
11. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
12. EPEsther Perel
  So it's not... It's very recent-
13. LHLewis Howes
  Right
14. EPEsther Perel
  ... you know, that we start making love first, and then we find out each other's names sometimes. [laughs]
15. LHLewis Howes
  Is that, is that, is that true for all over the world, or is that more in the US, or is that more-
16. EPEsther Perel
  It's true wherever people can experience, you know, premarital sex-
17. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
18. EPEsther Perel
  ... basically.
19. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
20. EPEsther Perel
  Um, in the past, you first had to marry in order to, to be able to have sex.
21. LHLewis Howes
  Right.
22. EPEsther Perel
  And when I say in the past, it's in the past here, and that's when I was a teenager. And, um, and in much of the world, it still is the case.
23. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
24. EPEsther Perel
  So we are part of a very sexualized society in which sexual freedom and sexual expression has become a part of our values.
25. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
26. EPEsther Perel
  Right? Sexuality used to be-
27. LHLewis Howes
  So true
28. EPEsther Perel
  ... a part of our biology, and now it's, and a part of our condition. Now it's a part of our identity.
29. LHLewis Howes
  Interesting.
30. EPEsther Perel
  And so we have changed the meaning of sex s- in the, in the culture at large, and then we have changed it in our relationships. And so we start from a place of attraction. You know, am I drawn to you? Am I attracted to you? Am I... D- you know, it's the first thing I think when I, I swipe.
17:44 – 18:39
Setting a healthier foundation: stop confusing erotic connection with life compatibility
1. LHLewis Howes
  Sure. How do you feel like people could set up for a healthier relationship as opposed to... Uh, what would you recommend or suggest then for people in order to have a healthier foundation, seeing that it seems so sexualized now? Everything seems so, like, physical, swiping, looking at someone's sexual identity, attraction, as opposed to, I guess, true intimacy and connection. How would you set up a relationship now?
2. EPEsther Perel
  There's so many, um, different pieces to this. I think the first thing is, look, I, I, I write about sexuality, and I'm not going to minimize it. But I do understand that, y- you know, it's a very important It's a beautiful thing to have a powerful erotic connection with someone, but don't confuse the metaphors. You can have a beautiful erotic connections with someone, and that does not necessarily translate into a life experience.
3. LHLewis Howes
  Right, a life story, yeah.
18:39 – 28:56
Four big myths that create resentment: soulmate, unconditional love, and the happiness mandate
1. EPEsther Perel
  A life story. That said, um, the next thing that changed culturally, if you wanna really take on-
2. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh
3. EPEsther Perel
  ... the big myths, it's the notion that we are looking for the one and only.
4. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
5. EPEsther Perel
  The one and only, um, my, m- my soulmate.
6. LHLewis Howes
  Is my everything.
7. EPEsther Perel
  Yes, my everything. Your soulmate used to be God-
8. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
9. EPEsther Perel
  ... not a person.
10. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
11. EPEsther Perel
  You know? The one and only was the divine. And with this one and only today, I want to experience wholeness and ecstasy and meaning and transcendence, and I'm gonna wait 10 more years. We are waiting 10 years longer to settle with someone, to make a commitment to someone, for those of us who choose a someone. And if I'm gonna wait longer, and if I'm looking around, and if I'm choosing among 1,000 people at my fingertips, you bet that the one who's gonna capture my attention, is gonna make me delete my apps, better be the one and only.
12. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
13. EPEsther Perel
  So, in a, in a period of proliferation of choices, we at the same time have an ascension of expectations about a romantic relationship that is unprecedented. We have never expected so much of our romantic relationships as we do today in the West.
14. LHLewis Howes
  That seems like a lot of pressure.
15. EPEsther Perel
  It's an enormous amount of pressure. We crumble under the weight of these expectations-
16. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
17. EPEsther Perel
  ... because a community cannot become a tribe of two.
18. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
19. EPEsther Perel
  This is a party of two, and with you and me together, we are going to create best friends, romantic partners, lovers, confidants, parents, intellectual equals-
20. LHLewis Howes
  Business partners
21. EPEsther Perel
  ... business partners-
22. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah, yeah [laughs]
23. EPEsther Perel
  ... career coaches, I mean, you name it. And I'm like, "Seriously? One person for everything? One person instead of a whole village?"
24. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
25. EPEsther Perel
  So that's the first myth. And the notion of unconditional love that accompanies this is that when I have that one and only, I have what you call clarity-
26. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
27. EPEsther Perel
  ... but translated into certainty-
28. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh
29. EPEsther Perel
  ... peace [laughs]
30. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh
28:56 – 34:52
Private bargains and unspoken expectations: how ‘hoping they’ll change’ fuels disappointment
1. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm. What do you think happens when people are in a relationship, and let's say they're together for a year or a couple years, and they decide, "Okay, we wanna get married." But maybe one or two, uh, each of the individuals don't accept something fully about the other person. Maybe there's like three things that they really don't like or don't accept-
2. EPEsther Perel
  Like what?
3. LHLewis Howes
  ... or wish they changed.
4. EPEsther Perel
  Depends what. [laughs]
5. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah. I mean, I'm just trying to think of something where you're like, "Uh, I love so much. We have this great connection. We have so much fun."
6. EPEsther Perel
  Mm-hmm.
7. LHLewis Howes
  "And we're growing and building a relationship." But behind their back, you're telling your girlfriend or your guy friends, "I wish they'd change this, this, or this. I don't like this thing, or I don't like this thing."
8. EPEsther Perel
  That's ambivalence.
9. LHLewis Howes
  What does that mean?
10. EPEsther Perel
  Meaning that you have to be able to live with the contradictory thoughts and feelings-
11. LHLewis Howes
  Mm. Mm-hmm
12. EPEsther Perel
  ... of what you like and what you don't like, what makes you wanna be here and what makes you not wanna be here. Like-
13. LHLewis Howes
  What happens when we don't accept that, though? And we, and we, and we like, "You know, hopefully they'll change out of this or grow out of this thing that I don't like about them." What happens when we're in that space? We're not actually fully accepting.
14. EPEsther Perel
  That means that when you get married, you're not just making a deal with your partner, you're making a secret deal with yourself that this is gonna change.
15. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
16. EPEsther Perel
  And then when it doesn't, you get very upset or pissed because your deal with yourself, which you never said out loud, it's a private bargain you do with yourself.
17. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
18. EPEsther Perel
  And all of us when we pick someone make private bargains with ourselves, too.
19. LHLewis Howes
  Really?
20. EPEsther Perel
  And it's often that bargain that is broken more than the one, because the partner never promised you that this would change.
21. LHLewis Howes
  Right. Exactly. And so it just creates more resentment. When we want something to change, we don't accept the-
22. EPEsther Perel
  Ex- expectations are resentment in the make.
23. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh.
24. EPEsther Perel
  [laughs]
25. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
26. EPEsther Perel
  The more expectations you have, the more things you can be disappointed of afterwards.
27. LHLewis Howes
  Right.
28. EPEsther Perel
  Especially when they're not articulated. I think what you need to know is what are some of the things, if you are with someone who d- If you, if you l- go back to the erotic connection, if you're with someone with whom you have a very difficult erotic connection, and you know that this is something that really is important to you, being seen, being touched, being held, being kissed, being stroked, being made love to is really a language that is very important to you, and you don't wanna live without it, then listen to yourself.
29. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
30. EPEsther Perel
  If it's not an important part for you, because that is not the way you express yourself most, then, then you know that this is not the center pers- the centerpiece of your relationship. You have other things that you share. If you know that you don't want children, or the reverse, that the other person doesn't want children, don't go in there hoping that they're gonna change your mind.
34:52 – 42:12
Jealousy: confidence, culture, and when it becomes additive vs. problematic
1. LHLewis Howes
  Right. And how does jealousy play in relationships? I used to be extremely jealous and insecure.
2. EPEsther Perel
  I remember that.
3. LHLewis Howes
  And then something switched in me, I don't know, five years ago, six years ago maybe, somewhere around that time, where I was like, you know what? This does not support me or my relationship at all, this, this jealous nature or this, you know-
4. EPEsther Perel
  That you knew even when you were jealous.
5. LHLewis Howes
  Oh, yeah. I knew, but I-
6. EPEsther Perel
  So-
7. LHLewis Howes
  ... I couldn't, I couldn't let it go though
8. EPEsther Perel
  ... you couldn't ... Right. So it's not what you said to yourself that changed what you experienced.
9. LHLewis Howes
  Something changed, yeah. I don't know exactly what it was, but I remember just being like, "I'm tired of this. I'm tired of feeling this way."
10. EPEsther Perel
  So what did you change? Not what did you say to yourself.
11. LHLewis Howes
  I think I, I changed fully accepting the person's decisions and lifestyle and what they were doing, uh, and trusting that everything was gonna be okay a- and not needing to be jealous. I think I was just afraid, like, are they talking to some guy or some ... You know, is there something behind my back that they're doing? I don't know. It was a worry of, like, an anxiousness, right?
12. EPEsther Perel
  So-
13. LHLewis Howes
  A- and so then I was just like-
14. EPEsther Perel
  Wait, wait, wait.
15. LHLewis Howes
  Yes.
16. EPEsther Perel
  [laughs] Part of what accompanies jealousy ... You know, jealousy starts at one and a half year old.
17. LHLewis Howes
  Okay.
18. EPEsther Perel
  It's not an early emotion.
19. LHLewis Howes
  Hmm. Interesting.
20. EPEsther Perel
  It needs a sense of self first. It needs the beginning of self-awareness as a baby to be able to experience jealousy. It's not like fear and joy and disgust and sadness-
21. LHLewis Howes
  So where does it come from?
22. EPEsther Perel
  ... and anger.
23. LHLewis Howes
  What is ...
24. EPEsther Perel
  Where it comes from and how e- e- evolutionary psychology has all kinds of explanations for jealousy.
25. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
26. EPEsther Perel
  But where it comes from interpersonally is that it requires having a sense of who you are before you begin to experience how you respond to what other people are doing. I want that too.
27. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
28. EPEsther Perel
  I don't, you know, I don't wanna lose something.
29. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
30. EPEsther Perel
  What changed for you is that you became more confident.
42:12 – 46:48
Four moments of feeling drawn to a partner: admiration, aliveness, other people’s eyes, and reunion
1. LHLewis Howes
  So you thought of four ways?
2. EPEsther Perel
  Yes.
3. LHLewis Howes
  What's the other three now?
4. EPEsther Perel
  So let me ask you, when do you find yourself most drawn? What would you say?
5. LHLewis Howes
  To, to Martha?
6. EPEsther Perel
  To Martha.
7. LHLewis Howes
  I find myself-
8. EPEsther Perel
  Yeah
9. LHLewis Howes
  ... drawn to her, I mean, for, for me-
10. EPEsther Perel
  Mm-hmm
11. LHLewis Howes
  ... I feel drawn when she loves and accepts me for who I am.
12. EPEsther Perel
  Mm-hmm.
13. LHLewis Howes
  When she's affectionate, when she, um, is appre- you know, sharing appreciation with me and gratitude with me, when she's joyful and her most expressed self.
14. EPEsther Perel
  Mm-hmm.
15. LHLewis Howes
  Like, just pure energy and love and fun and play.
16. EPEsther Perel
  Mm-hmm.
17. LHLewis Howes
  Um, I have a lot of appreciation and admiration for her when she is living her dreams also. Like, she's doing what she wants to do fully, and I'm like, "That's inspiring." You know? It draws me to her. What else? I think the fact that she is- So in integrity with her word draws me to her.
18. EPEsther Perel
  Mm.
19. LHLewis Howes
  'Cause then I feel more and more c- connected, and grateful, and appreciative, and safe in the environment. So, um, I mean, sexually, so many different ways-
20. EPEsther Perel
  Mm-hmm
21. LHLewis Howes
  ... that I'm drawn to her.
22. EPEsther Perel
  But you, you know, when I say the first four, it's just simply because I've gone around the world asking this question.
23. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh.
24. EPEsther Perel
  And I just began to see themes, right? The first one is when I see my partner in their element.
25. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm. Yeah. Doing their thing they're best at.
26. EPEsther Perel
  Doing their thing. Competent, radiant, in their element. It could be on stage, at work, on a horse, on a slope.
27. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
28. EPEsther Perel
  Um, you know, but it is basically when they are self-sufficient, and when they are radiant, and they're in their element, and they're passionate about something-
29. LHLewis Howes
  Yes
30. EPEsther Perel
  ... and they are alive. And all of those things also mean that I am not needing to be burdened by a certain form of emotional caretaking.
46:48 – 50:10
Distance and silence: balancing freedom and commitment, separateness and connection
1. LHLewis Howes
  How important is creating space in a relationship, whether you're dating or in a marriage, and creating day apart, days apart-
2. EPEsther Perel
  [clears throat]
3. LHLewis Howes
  ... weeks apart, and has it ever become too long apart for a relationship to stay growing, if it's months apart or something?
4. EPEsther Perel
  So the first question is, how important is distance in a relationship? I will also add something that I learned from the poet David Whyte this week when we had a conversation together, and he talked about the importance of silence in a relationship.
5. LHLewis Howes
  Not always having to speak or-
6. EPEsther Perel
  Yes. And, or the importance of being able to be with yourself while being in the presence of the other.
7. LHLewis Howes
  What would that look like? Like reading a book and the person's in the, in the room?
8. EPEsther Perel
  Could be that. Could be that you go away for a few weeks because you wanna go do a meditation retreat-
9. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
10. EPEsther Perel
  ... or a project that you're interested in or... You know. It's the notion that it, or the, or the fact that you keep certain things to yourself.
11. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
12. EPEsther Perel
  But that you stay in dialogue with yourself, and a dialogue that isn't always shared with your partner.
13. LHLewis Howes
  When you mean silent with yourself, do you mean, like, not speaking at all for part of this time?
14. EPEsther Perel
  Yes.
15. LHLewis Howes
  Or you just mean not-
16. EPEsther Perel
  But you're taking it literally.
17. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah, yeah.
18. EPEsther Perel
  It's, it's literally, but it's also the, the metaphor of it. So I'll explain the context. Our conversation was called... Because that's your question, about how important is distance. I would say distance is very important-
19. LHLewis Howes
  Mm
20. EPEsther Perel
  ... in a relationship. But the way I define it is this: Every relationship straddles freedom and commitment, togetherness and separateness.
21. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
22. EPEsther Perel
  Connection and independence. Every relationship. In every relationship, there is often one person who is more inclined to the connection, and one person who is more inclined for the separateness, one person more afraid of losing the other, and one person more afraid of losing themselves.
23. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
24. EPEsther Perel
  One person more in touch with the fear of abandonment, one person more in touch with the fear of suffocation. We all have both.
25. LHLewis Howes
  Interesting.
26. EPEsther Perel
  But we organize our relationship in which one of us will take on the role of this duality. But ev-
27. LHLewis Howes
  And it might evolve seasonally, too.
28. EPEsther Perel
  Completely.
29. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
30. EPEsther Perel
  So- We need connection and we need distance.
50:10 – 57:22
Personal relationship lessons: approval, emotional dependency, fairness, and women’s freedom
1. LHLewis Howes
  Right. That's interesting. That's powerful, yeah. What would you say was the, the biggest challenge that you faced internally throughout relationships, that you had to face yourself?
2. EPEsther Perel
  Oh, I think, well, you know, I met my husband, Jack, when I was 22.
3. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh.
4. EPEsther Perel
  [laughs] Um-
5. LHLewis Howes
  You're what? You're 35 now?
6. EPEsther Perel
  Yes.
7. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
8. EPEsther Perel
  I like it.
9. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
10. EPEsther Perel
  Um, and, uh, [laughs] actually 35 years together, yes. [laughs]
11. LHLewis Howes
  Oh, really? 35 years together.
12. EPEsther Perel
  Married, married, baby.
13. LHLewis Howes
  Wow, that's amazing.
14. EPEsther Perel
  No, we're together even more than that.
15. LHLewis Howes
  Wow, that's powerful.
16. EPEsther Perel
  You know, but I, I probably swallowed the romantic ideal quite a bit as a young girl, too. Are you gonna meet the right man? With this man, do- if you meet the right person you will never feel alone again. You will never feel lonely.
17. LHLewis Howes
  Hmm.
18. EPEsther Perel
  You will never be sad. You will ... Seriously, you know, whatever you feel, you will feel again until, some of it you may feel until you drop dead.
19. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh.
20. EPEsther Perel
  But, but you will, if it changes, it's not because the magical potion of the other person is going to suddenly sprinkle its dust over you. So that was getting rid of some of the myths.
21. LHLewis Howes
  How long did it take for you internally to, to let that go or evolve or heal those myths?
22. EPEsther Perel
  Ah, yeah. I would say the first decade. You know, um, it's slowly, over time.
23. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
24. EPEsther Perel
  You begin to, you know, um, you begin to realize that, I think ... I, you know, he was ... I looked up to him. I still look up to him. [laughs] He's a very smart guy, and I, I really wouldn't let any idea leave the house before it was vetted and approved by him.
25. LHLewis Howes
  Interesting.
26. EPEsther Perel
  Is this smart? Is this good? Can I pr- publish this?
27. LHLewis Howes
  Getting approval.
28. EPEsther Perel
  Getting approval, you know, from the mentor.
29. LHLewis Howes
  Interesting. That was the first 10 years.
30. EPEsther Perel
  Yeah, the ... No, maybe a little bit less than 10, but, uh, it was certainly five years.
57:22 – 1:01:10
Dating to really know someone: bring them into your social world and watch how they treat others
1. LHLewis Howes
  How long do you think people should date before they get married to really know, like, if they're giving themselves the best chance for not divorce, let's say?
2. EPEsther Perel
  Depends how, how they date.
3. LHLewis Howes
  Interesting.
4. EPEsther Perel
  If their dating is a, you know-
5. LHLewis Howes
  Surface level
6. EPEsther Perel
  ... true, exactly.
7. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
8. EPEsther Perel
  A parading of the best things of me-
9. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh
10. EPEsther Perel
  ... then, um, it doesn't matter how long.
11. LHLewis Howes
  Interesting.
12. EPEsther Perel
  It doesn't change.
13. LHLewis Howes
  Right.
14. EPEsther Perel
  You know? But I would say that the dating, the most important pieces of dating... I think the dating is, is really bizarre at this moment because most people-
15. LHLewis Howes
  Tell me
16. EPEsther Perel
  ... because you date and, you know, and you date alone, you see the person alone in f- when in fact, you learn so much more from seeing people in social situations.
17. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm. You mean with their friends or family or-
18. EPEsther Perel
  Bring your date on, uh, bring your person on date too, to people. You know what I did? [laughs]
19. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
20. EPEsther Perel
  I had a dinner at my house, and, uh, it was a bunch of single people. And then one of them at one point said, "I actually need to..." You know how they were talking about relationships and long-term, and how do you know, all these questions that you're asking me.
21. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh.
22. EPEsther Perel
  And, uh, and at one point one of them said, "Well, I actually need to go because I have a blind date." So I said, "Where are you going?"
23. LHLewis Howes
  Bring him here.
24. EPEsther Perel
  Exactly. Where are you gonna go? To sit in a noisy bar where you can't hear each other? Bring him over. You'll know so much more. And anyway, she was really bold. She did it. The guy came too. So everybody doing their part, and there's about 12 of us there. And, uh, and, and the, and he shows up, and we just tell him, we're in the middle of this conversation.
25. LHLewis Howes
  No, that's crazy.
26. EPEsther Perel
  And, and, and then I... You know. But the point was, you, you know how much we learned about this guy, or she learned about him? But we all did, too.
27. LHLewis Howes
  You learn a lot.
28. EPEsther Perel
  A lot.
29. LHLewis Howes
  Right.
30. EPEsther Perel
  Who he was and the family, where he's from, and his thinking about couples and really... I mean, seriously, he r- he could-
1:01:10 – 1:07:28
Cross-cultural happiness and calibrating expectations: why modern marriage aims so high
1. EPEsther Perel
  Your definition of happy and thriving and fulfilled is probably very different than many other cultures-
2. LHLewis Howes
  Sure
3. EPEsther Perel
  ... where being healthy-
4. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs] Right
5. EPEsther Perel
  ... having enough to eat- Having children
6. LHLewis Howes
  Having good jobs, yeah
7. EPEsther Perel
  ... having grandchildren, having good jobs, being respected in the community
8. LHLewis Howes
  Is happy and thriving
9. EPEsther Perel
  Is happy and thriving
10. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
11. EPEsther Perel
  It's not about you and I are talking on the couch, and I'm pouring my hearts at you-
12. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah, yeah
13. EPEsther Perel
  ... and you are telling me I'm the best thing that's ever happened to you in your life and all of that. Okay? So we-
14. LHLewis Howes
  That's one version, yeah
15. EPEsther Perel
  That's one version
16. LHLewis Howes
  Okay
17. EPEsther Perel
  ... is you have got to look at the word happiness and thriving really in a cross-cultural context
18. LHLewis Howes
  Okay. I like that
19. EPEsther Perel
  Because a lot of us, by the way, who have the new definition, have parents who think about marriage and what is a happy marriage with the, with the other definition
20. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
21. EPEsther Perel
  And I'm wondering, you know, that maybe we are so unhappy because we want so many other things that are maybe not part of marriage
22. LHLewis Howes
  Hmm. We have such high expectations
23. EPEsther Perel
  We have super high expectations. I want, we want everything. We want a partner to be an entire community, my best friend, my trusted confidant, my passionate lover, my intellectual equal, my co-parent. And on top of it, I want with you to deal with all the vicissitudes of the everyday life and all of what we need to get to-
24. LHLewis Howes
  All the responsibilities and-
25. EPEsther Perel
  All of that. And then we should also be passionate, great lovers, w- fantastic travelers
26. LHLewis Howes
  Travel the world
27. EPEsther Perel
  Exactly [laughs]
28. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
29. EPEsther Perel
  You know, and very few of us-
30. LHLewis Howes
  Go dancing every week
1:07:28 – 1:20:10
Building long-term thriving: diversify support, do new things, and define values for a life story
1. LHLewis Howes
  Right If you're a, a young 30-something female, I get this all the time from a lot of women who reach out to me, who are ending relationships that were really stressful for them, or they've been single for years and they're trying to figure out how do they find the right person or how do they create the right relationship for them that's gonna be a, a long-term partner. If you're a female in your young 30s, what should they be thinking about? Like, should they be focusing first on themself, growing themself? Or what are the things they should be looking for in the right partner?
2. EPEsther Perel
  Right. I just wrote my current blog, which is a little bit of a critique of this taking care of yourself first.
3. LHLewis Howes
  Okay. Yeah, yeah.
4. EPEsther Perel
  So, um-
5. LHLewis Howes
  Guilty
6. EPEsther Perel
  ... because you, you learn to love yourself in the context of your relationships with others.
7. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
8. EPEsther Perel
  You know? We... This idea that you go first to work on yourself here, and then you prepare this little nice little package and you bring it to relationships, that's, that is completely off, actually.
9. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
10. EPEsther Perel
  There... It's, it's, it's interactive. You do do... You need a good amount of self-awareness, but you also need to be in relationships because it's people who help you become more aware.
11. LHLewis Howes
  Practicing it. Yeah.
12. EPEsther Perel
  Uh, practicing it, but other people let you see who you are. It's by being with others that you get to know who you are, not just by sitting there alone and say, "Who am I? Who am I?"
13. LHLewis Howes
  Right.
14. EPEsther Perel
  But this is a relational perspective on life, and I will stand by that.
15. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
16. EPEsther Perel
  Read the newsletter. It's, it-
17. LHLewis Howes
  I like it
18. EPEsther Perel
  ... I really poured myself into that one.
19. LHLewis Howes
  Okay. Good.
20. EPEsther Perel
  Because I'm tired a little bit of this. No. What I will say to you, I'm tired of the go fix yourself.
21. LHLewis Howes
  First. Then go be in a relationship.
22. EPEsther Perel
  First, and then go be in a relationship. Relationships help you to become who you are.
23. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
24. EPEsther Perel
  That's what happens between children and their caregivers. The next thing is in then, instead of constantly thinking, "Who's the right person I'm gonna find?" Why don't you ask yourself, who do you wanna be? Who should the other one be? No, maybe it's for on occasion ask, who will I be as a partner?
25. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
26. EPEsther Perel
  Who have I been till now in my relationships? How have I shown up? What is it that I do? Not just, you know, finding the right person.
27. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
28. EPEsther Perel
  That's... No. What does it mean to find the right person? And there I will say the simplest way of looking at it is this. There are many people you will love, and they are not necessarily the same people that you will make a life with. Are you looking for a love story, or are you looking for a life story?
29. LHLewis Howes
  Ooh. That's good.
30. EPEsther Perel
  You understand?
1:20:10 – 1:43:20
What breaks relationships—and how to keep desire alive: repair, gratitude, risk, and owning your wanting
1. SPSpeaker
  What are the core, uh, reasons or the core things you see over and over that, uh, either end or make a relationship challenging to be in the longer you're in? What are the, what are the ones that, what are the challenges that come up over and over that you see?
2. EPEsther Perel
  Hmm. So there's always three questions, right? What's a thriving relationship?
3. SPSpeaker
  A thriving one.
4. EPEsther Perel
  Yeah.
5. SPSpeaker
  Yeah.
6. EPEsther Perel
  What can go wrong?
7. SPSpeaker
  Uh-huh.
8. EPEsther Perel
  And how do you fix it?
9. SPSpeaker
  Okay.
10. EPEsther Perel
  So you started with the middle question.
11. SPSpeaker
  [laughs]
12. EPEsther Perel
  What goes wrong?
13. SPSpeaker
  Yeah. Yes.
14. EPEsther Perel
  [laughs] I think there's a number of things in a relationship that g- that, uh, that become the s- the, the kind of, uh, cornerstones of the demise, okay? And I'm not gonna list them in order, but they all-
15. SPSpeaker
  Sure
16. EPEsther Perel
  ... are part of each other. Um, indifference and contempt and neglect and violence are probably the four most important.
17. SPSpeaker
  Okay.
18. EPEsther Perel
  I'm not talking about big violence. Microaggressions are plenty. Indifference, when you start to feel like the other person fundamentally is not really caring about you anymore, or you don't care about them, what they feel, what they think, who they are, what they're about.
19. SPSpeaker
  Mm-hmm.
20. EPEsther Perel
  There's a com-
21. SPSpeaker
  You just don't care. You've lost interest.
22. EPEsther Perel
  It just-- But it's more than losing of interest.
23. SPSpeaker
  Mm.
24. EPEsther Perel
  It's also when you are indifferent, you degrade the other person. They're less important to you. They don't matter.
25. SPSpeaker
  Mm.
26. EPEsther Perel
  And ultimately, what we feel in relationships is that we matter. That is the essential reason for connecting to people, is that we are creatures of meaning.
27. SPSpeaker
  Right.
28. EPEsther Perel
  I matter to you. I'm someone. You care about me. You want my me- you want my wellbeing. You're proud of me. You, you want good for me. You're benevolent.
29. SPSpeaker
  Mm-hmm.
30. EPEsther Perel
  All of that. When you are indifferent, that whole thing goes, and then you start to, there's that coldness that creeps in, that sense of estrangement, that complete disconnect. That. The second one is neglect. Neglect, when people just basically take each other for granted.

Episode duration: 1:43:20

In the uListen app, the transcript lights up word by word as you listen. Get uListen

Transcript of episode XS38vqKDiEo

Get more out of YouTube videos.

Read along on your phone, search it beside the video, or ask your favorite AI app what was said.

iOS

Modern relationship myths: expecting one person to be your whole village

Disasters as relationship accelerators: why crises trigger breakups and babies

Why second marriages divorce more—and why third marriages can fare better

“Conscious coupling”: therapy early, preventive mindset, and positive sentiment override

Love story vs. life story: building a relationship needs different “materials” than attraction

Why dating starts with sex now: contraception, swipe culture, and sex as identity

Setting a healthier foundation: stop confusing erotic connection with life compatibility

Four big myths that create resentment: soulmate, unconditional love, and the happiness mandate

Private bargains and unspoken expectations: how ‘hoping they’ll change’ fuels disappointment

Jealousy: confidence, culture, and when it becomes additive vs. problematic

Four moments of feeling drawn to a partner: admiration, aliveness, other people’s eyes, and reunion

Distance and silence: balancing freedom and commitment, separateness and connection

Personal relationship lessons: approval, emotional dependency, fairness, and women’s freedom

Dating to really know someone: bring them into your social world and watch how they treat others

Cross-cultural happiness and calibrating expectations: why modern marriage aims so high

Building long-term thriving: diversify support, do new things, and define values for a life story

What breaks relationships—and how to keep desire alive: repair, gratitude, risk, and owning your wanting

Get more out of YouTube videos.