The MONEY Expert: The Simple Plan That Made Me A MILLIONAIRE (ANYONE Can Do THIS!) | George Kamel

1. 0:00 – 3:52

   Intro

   1. GKGeorge Kamel0:00

      I didn't come from money. I am a W-2 employee. I didn't start my own business. I'm not a self-made entrepreneur. I'm a guy who just followed a simple plan and believes that anyone can become a millionaire in America today. This works. Every time you work it, it works, whether you make 40,000 or 400,000. Too many of us are willing to live in mediocrity for 30 years instead of sacrificing for three.

   2. LHLewis Howes0:25

      What would you say are the three biggest killers of wealth in America?

   3. GKGeorge Kamel0:28

      Hmm. That's a great question. You're not building wealth just because you have a zero credit card balance. I want people to build wealth.

   4. LHLewis Howes0:37

      So you're telling me you can work somewhere for a decade, not start your own business, and you could get to millionaire status.

   5. GKGeorge Kamel0:43

      I'm the average George. If I can go from broke to millionaire, you can too.

   6. LHLewis Howes0:49

      Welcome back, everyone, at School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have the inspiring and hilarious George Kamel in the house. Good to see you.

   7. GKGeorge Kamel0:56

      So good, man. It's an honor to be here. I'm a longtime fan, and I feel like I'm inside of the Matrix.

   8. LHLewis Howes1:01

      You're here, man. You're here, man.

   9. GKGeorge Kamel1:02

      We've made it in the simulation.

   10. LHLewis Howes1:03

       We've made it, man. Um, you are a personal finance expert and also a Ramsey, Dave Ramsey Personality. And, uh, you're, you know, the show's number one in the world right now, so congratulations-

   11. GKGeorge Kamel1:14

       Thank you

   12. LHLewis Howes1:14

       ... Ramsey's, uh, uh, The Ramsey Show.

   13. GKGeorge Kamel1:15

       Thank you to everyone who's, who's listening who made it happen.

   14. LHLewis Howes1:17

       Yeah.

   15. GKGeorge Kamel1:17

       I have very little to do with it.

   16. LHLewis Howes1:18

       It's amazing, man. Um, you've got this new book, which I'm excited about. I've been diving in. I'm really excited to dive into it with the audience. Breaking Free From Broke: The Ultimate Guide to More Money and Less Stress. Now, here's a question for you to get started. This is what I read about you. You went from a negative net worth to millionaire status in under a decade. And I'm curious, to start this off, what would be the top five habits of millionaires that you've studied and also you've applied in order to get that status?

   17. GKGeorge Kamel1:48

       Ooh, that's a great question. So we did the largest study of millionaires ever done in North America, and I think there's a lot of overlap in the habits that we talk about with the Ramsey Baby Steps and what we found with millionaires. So it's encouraging, uh, because it just gave us some great confidence in the Ramsey plan, to go like, "This works. Every time you work it, it works, whether you make 40,000 or 400,000." And so one of those habits is living on less than you make.

   18. LHLewis Howes2:14

       Mm.

   19. GKGeorge Kamel2:14

       If you can't do that, this, this is not for you.

   20. LHLewis Howes2:17

       Right.

   21. GKGeorge Kamel2:17

       Like, if y- if you make 40,000 and you spend 60,000 a year, that's a problem. The other one we found-

   22. LHLewis Howes2:23

       Wait, why, why-

   23. GKGeorge Kamel2:24

       ... is delayed gratification

   24. LHLewis Howes2:24

       ... for that first one, why do you think people feel the need to spend more than they actually make?

   25. GKGeorge Kamel2:30

       I think at the root of it, it's discontentment.

   26. LHLewis Howes2:32

       Mm.

   27. GKGeorge Kamel2:33

       We're not content with what we have. It's never enough. And thanks to debt, you're able to do that. Like, before debt existed, you couldn't spend more than you made. It was physically impossible.

   28. LHLewis Howes2:43

       Right.

   29. GKGeorge Kamel2:44

       And, and all of a sudden, with the advent of debt, and I talk about the history of each piece of the puzzle here, like, where did credit cards come from? Where did auto loans originate? What about student loans? How did this all happen? And most of it was good intentions that turned into huge profits for companies and corporations going like, "We can screw a lot of people over and make a lot of money from interest if we convince them they need that newer car."

   30. LHLewis Howes3:07

       Mm.
2. 3:52 – 7:40

   The Long Game and Delayed Gratification

   1. GKGeorge Kamel3:52

      They're playing the long game, and it's a, that's a very different mentality to have.

   2. LHLewis Howes3:56

      They don't need it right now. They can say, "I'm gonna put 10% or 5% or a certain amount of dollar amount every month away automatically, that I don't need to buy something with this. It's gonna go to my future self."

   3. GKGeorge Kamel4:07

      Yeah. Or, "I'm gonna pay cash for that car." That means putting 1,000 bucks away for 24 months-

   4. LHLewis Howes4:12

      Wow

   5. GKGeorge Kamel4:12

      ... to save up for a $24,000 car.

   6. LHLewis Howes4:14

      You know what's interesting? When I moved to... My dad always had used cars until he started to make some real money. Then he, then he bought a new car, right? But it wasn't for many, many years. He, like, had that car until he rode it to the, to the last, I guess, mile. And when I moved to LA, I had a million dollars in my account already by the time I moved to LA, I don't know, 12 years ago. I had built this marketing company up before the podcast. I wasn't, like, mega millionaire, but I had a million dollars in the account of net worth, right? And I came here, and everyone had these flashy cars. And I was like, "I, I just don't feel the need to try to live up to some standard in Los Angeles." And I got this car for $4,000 that I drove for the first five years I lived here. It, and the only reason I got a new car was really for, like, a tax break and to, like, you know, write off on taxes, but this was a 1997, uh, year car.

   7. GKGeorge Kamel5:13

      Wow.

   8. LHLewis Howes5:13

      And I drove it around for five years happy. It didn't have Bluetooth. It didn't have, like... It had a CD player. And I'm like-

   9. GKGeorge Kamel5:21

      That's all you need

   10. LHLewis Howes5:21

       ... that's all I needed. And the radio didn't work. But it was like, I don't need some fancy car to feel like-

   11. GKGeorge Kamel5:27

       Well, you weren't trying to flex.

   12. LHLewis Howes5:28

       I wasn't trying to.

   13. GKGeorge Kamel5:29

       You were focused on what was ahead of you-

   14. LHLewis Howes5:31

       Yeah

   15. GKGeorge Kamel5:31

       ... instead of what was, who the people around you.

   16. LHLewis Howes5:33

       Exactly. And it was, it was good enough. It got me around. You know, eventually I was like, "Okay, it's time to, like, upgrade," but not 'cause I felt like I needed to to impress, but because I wanted it, and I was like-

   17. GKGeorge Kamel5:42

       It wasn't flex.

   18. LHLewis Howes5:43

       Yeah, exactly. But then a l-

   19. GKGeorge Kamel5:44

       That's, that's the third habit, is, right there-

   20. LHLewis Howes5:46

       Really?

   21. GKGeorge Kamel5:46

       ... is we found millionaires, they drive four-year-old cars on average, and they're all used.

   22. LHLewis Howes5:51

       Really?

   23. GKGeorge Kamel5:51

       You would think, like, millionaires, well, they can afford the new car, like, they can do it. But they don't, because they understand that cars are a depreciating asset. Every time you get in that car, it's just going down in value.

   24. LHLewis Howes6:01

       Yeah.

   25. GKGeorge Kamel6:01

       And when you compound that with a car payment- You're paying interest on something going down in value. It's about the dumbest thing you can do, and I, I think it's one of the biggest wealth killers today.

   26. LHLewis Howes6:10

       Okay.

   27. GKGeorge Kamel6:10

       So that's definitely the third habit.

   28. LHLewis Howes6:11

       Okay. What's, what's... Uh, getting a used car, or what would be-

   29. GKGeorge Kamel6:15

       Yeah

   30. LHLewis Howes6:15

       ... Okay.
3. 7:40 – 11:24

   Choosing Hope over Cynicism

   1. GKGeorge Kamel7:40

      or the inflation. I believe both are a choice. Like, hope is a choice, and for me, it was the hardest choice.

   2. LHLewis Howes7:46

      Right.

   3. GKGeorge Kamel7:47

      'Cause I was c- I was the guy who was cynical. When I graduated college, I was 23, 40 grand in consumer debt, and I was angry at the world. I was like-

   4. LHLewis Howes7:54

      Really?

   5. GKGeorge Kamel7:54

      I felt lied to 'cause I was like, "I followed this path. I got good grades. I got the degree. Where's my wonderful life? Instead, I'm out here trying to get cash back and get enough Sky Miles to go home for Christmas-

   6. LHLewis Howes8:06

      Wow

   7. GKGeorge Kamel8:06

      ... wondering how I'm gonna achieve my financial goals." And so that to me, I think that's the feeling a lot of people have is this pit of the stomach, lump in the throat hopelessness, and cynicism becomes the easier choice. It's easier to complain and just go like, "Someone's gotta fix my life."

   8. LHLewis Howes8:23

      And blame people-

   9. GKGeorge Kamel8:24

      Yeah

   10. LHLewis Howes8:24

       ... or systems or whatever you... Yeah.

   11. GKGeorge Kamel8:25

       So I think it starts with, you know, while, yes, we gotta do, we gotta get on a budget, we gotta make sacrifices, um, we gotta get rid of this debt using the debt snowball, get the emergency fund. Those are the real tactical steps.

   12. LHLewis Howes8:37

       Mm.

   13. GKGeorge Kamel8:37

       But I think it starts with an emotional place where we go, "All right. We cried it out. Now we wake up, and we're like, 'We gotta go to work.'" And so the question is the gap between financial stress and financial peace is littered with traps-

   14. LHLewis Howes8:54

       Mm

   15. GKGeorge Kamel8:54

       ... and myths and distractions and noise and whole life insurance bros trying to sell you on some tax-free wealth strategy. And so what you have to do if that's you is go like, "I'm cutting out all the noise and inputs. I'm gonna follow a proven plan, do one thing at a time with focused intensity, and go all in." And if, listen, if you get out of debt and follow the Ramsey plan and you hate it, you can always go back into debt. The companies will always be ready to hand you more Monopoly money to play with. But I've rarely seen that happen. When people get out of debt, the sacrifice they make to get out, in 18 to 24 months, that's the average it takes to get out, they never go back. They go, "I touched the hot stove. Done with that life. I got goals. I'm not trying to pay lenders for the rest of my life. I'm trying to leave a legacy. I wanna have generational impact." And so that, those are the people that inspire me, are the ones that they start there, but it doesn't end there. And unfortunately, too many of us are willing to live in mediocrity-

   16. LHLewis Howes9:49

       Mm

   17. GKGeorge Kamel9:50

       ... for 30 years instead of sacrificing for three-

   18. LHLewis Howes9:52

       Wow

   19. GKGeorge Kamel9:53

       ... to have freedom for the next 27.

   20. LHLewis Howes9:55

       Yeah.

   21. GKGeorge Kamel9:55

       But it's a, it's a very different lifestyle. I mean-

   22. LHLewis Howes9:58

       Man

   23. GKGeorge Kamel9:58

       ... so that it takes transformation, and you know how difficult that is. You talk about that a lot on this show.

   24. LHLewis Howes10:02

       Yeah. Delayed gratification is one of those key things. A lot of people aren't willing to sacrifice three years of delayed gratification and not having all the extra things that their friends are doing and not going out every weekend or not going on that trip that they wanted to go on for three years.

   25. GKGeorge Kamel10:18

       You're not getting that house. You're not driving that car.

   26. LHLewis Howes10:20

       Yeah, man. But-

   27. GKGeorge Kamel10:21

       It's hard

   28. LHLewis Howes10:22

       ... if you can, if you can stay committed for a few years of sacrifice and find joy in the small and then big wins and find joy in doing things for free or just playing board games-

   29. GKGeorge Kamel10:33

       Mm

   30. LHLewis Howes10:34

       ... with friends or h- being creative with your time as opposed to feeling like you always need to spend to enjoy your time, I think you'll, you'll live a much better life.
4. 11:24 – 15:11

   Changing the Trajectory of Your Life

   1. GKGeorge Kamel11:24

      "These are the best years of my life. I can't skip that vacation." But man, just two years out of the next 40, if you can sacrifice, it changes everything.

   2. LHLewis Howes11:33

      Yes.

   3. GKGeorge Kamel11:33

      It changes the trajectory of your life.

   4. LHLewis Howes11:35

      Mm.

   5. GKGeorge Kamel11:35

      So that's what I, I hope people are willing to do at the end of this.

   6. LHLewis Howes11:38

      How do, how does someone create that belief that they can have control over their money?

   7. GKGeorge Kamel11:42

      I think it starts with dealing with the, their past. I mean, our friend Dr. John Delony has a book called Own Your Past, Change Your Future, and you have to own the shame and the guilt and the baggage and the mistakes and the hurt and the financial trauma, and your parents divorced, and it was money stress and money fights, and you took on all this debt, and so who are you to ever build wealth and become debt-free? You have to grapple with that and go like, "That's not who I am." Those are things that happened, and yes, they may have happened to me, but that's not gonna control my destiny. And so, I, that, it starts with that, realizing that this is my past, that's fine, that's not where I'm headed. And so we always say the windshield is bigger than the rear view mirror for a reason.

   8. LHLewis Howes12:21

      Mm-hmm.

   9. GKGeorge Kamel12:22

      So if you can start looking ahead, going, "Regardless, and in spite of all of that, I am going to change my family tree," that's what we call it, build generational wealth, break the cycles and chains that have come before me. Those people are the ones that inspire me every day when they call the show, and they didn't come from money, they didn't come from trust funds. They came from broken homes and little incomes, and they overcame.

   10. LHLewis Howes12:44

       Yeah.

   11. GKGeorge Kamel12:44

       Those are the heroes.

   12. LHLewis Howes12:45

       Yeah, I think I saw someone at, th- earlier this week, a woman come on the show say she got out, like 300,000 in debt in, like, 18 months or something-

   13. GKGeorge Kamel12:53

       Whoa

   14. LHLewis Howes12:53

       ... on your show.

   15. GKGeorge Kamel12:54

       Yeah

   16. LHLewis Howes12:54

       . And I, uh, and I, maybe it was 300, maybe it was 170, 170,000 I think it was, that she got out of debt in 18 months. And the amount of peace that she had in her facial expression and her body language around being debt-free from these, I guess, bad debts, uh, really looked empowering on what she was capable of doing now without that debt weighing her down. A- and I'm curious, before we get into the next, uh, the fifth habit, how does someone develop that, that belief that c- they can pay down their debts if it seems so daunting and so overwhelming?

   17. GKGeorge Kamel13:34

       Realizing that you're not alone, I think, is a really important step. Too many people feel like, "Well, my situation's different, and I'm unique, and I'm special, and they don't get it." But then I meet people every day, and I get in a Financial Peace University class, and there's all these other people who made money mistakes, and I go, "Oh, I'm not alone. I'm not a, I'm not the only idiot out there."

   18. LHLewis Howes13:52

       Yeah.

   19. GKGeorge Kamel13:53

       "I'm not the only Average George out there." That, to me, is encouraging because it tells me that this path is something that other people have done before me, that will come after me-

   20. LHLewis Howes14:02

       Mm

   21. GKGeorge Kamel14:02

       ... and that I can do this, too. And so I think it's important to get other people around you, and that might mean cutting out some toxic friends-

   22. LHLewis Howes14:08

       Right, right

   23. GKGeorge Kamel14:09

       ... who are not trying to be on that journey.

   24. LHLewis Howes14:10

       Sure.

   25. GKGeorge Kamel14:11

       Finding people who aren't trying to live on less than they make. That's an important piece, and the other piece is feeling progress, and that's why I think those baby steps are so important. When you start with just, hey, 1,000 bucks, can you get 1,000 bucks? Most of us would say, "Yeah, I can sell some stuff. I can get this second job. I can l- you know, not eat out this month." Now it's like, all right, let's attack that consumer debt, debt snowball, smallest to largest. Let's just attack the small debt. Can we just do that? One thing at a time. We're not saving. We're not investing. We're just gonna do one thing at a time.

   26. LHLewis Howes14:40

       Right.

   27. GKGeorge Kamel14:40

       And that, to me, is what builds that hope and builds that progress and momentum and keeps you motivated on the journey. You have to have a little in early on, or else you give up.

   28. LHLewis Howes14:49

       Yeah. That's good. And what about the fifth habit?

   29. GKGeorge Kamel14:52

       Ooh, the fifth habit is so boring that, and unsexy-

   30. LHLewis Howes14:57

       [laughs]
5. 15:11 – 18:45

   The Importance of Budgeting and Conscious Spending

   1. GKGeorge Kamel15:11

      for me 'cause I always thought, like, "We have to be a super nerd and love Excel," or you have to be, like, really broke 'cause you think budget, you think this person's real frugal and stingy and cheap, and they can't spend anything. You say, "I'm on a budget," that means I can't go out with your fr- with the friends.

   2. LHLewis Howes15:22

      Right.

   3. GKGeorge Kamel15:23

      But to me, it's just putting a plan on paper and looking at reality, going, "My income is 5,000. I need to spend... I'm gonna make a plan for every single dollar 'cause otherwise, what happens? Dollars float away. You go, 'Where do, where ha- oh my gosh, we spent 600 bucks eating out this month and DoorDashing a burrito.'" You know? All of that unintentional spending and impulse leads to you not hitting financial goals.

   4. LHLewis Howes15:45

      Yeah. So it's not, it, it's conscious spending habits. It's being aware of where you're spending your money. Um, there was a quote in here. Let me see this quote real quick. I saw this based on budgeting. Uh-

   5. GKGeorge Kamel15:58

      Yeah, I had a whole chapter on b- on, uh, called Budgeting is Freedom.

   6. LHLewis Howes16:01

      Yeah.

   7. GKGeorge Kamel16:01

      That's the first one in the Breaking Free section-

   8. LHLewis Howes16:03

      Yeah

   9. GKGeorge Kamel16:03

      ... to help people.

   10. LHLewis Howes16:04

       And the quote on that is from John Maxwell, said, "A budget is telling your money where to go instead of wondering where it went." And I think a lot of people aren't conscious about their spending habits, and they're not intentional about where they want their money to go. They buy things based on impulse and based on pleasure and based on desire, and then they realize, like, "Oh, I don't have as much money as I thought I had," 'cause they're not intentional about it. How often should we be looking at all of our accounts? Should this be a daily thing? Should it be monthly? Is it too, is it, you know, is it too much to look at it where it's an obsession and you're over-obsessing versus, like, a natural flow? What do you think?

   11. GKGeorge Kamel16:43

       Yeah, that's a great question. Well, we tell people to make a budget every month, and so actually creating the budget on paper before the next month begins is key. So that will happen one time, and if you've got a spouse, you need to do that together with a l- a quick budget meeting. This is not a four-hour, you know, Lord of the Rings saga here. This is going, "Hey, what's going on this month? Hey, we got that birthday party. We gotta get that gift for this thing. Remember we have that vacation coming up. Let's start saving." And so that's all it is, but as far as tracking your transactions, 'cause that's a really important part of the budget people forget to do. Looks great on paper, and then we just spend the rest of the month and hope. Fingers crossed we have money in the account at the end of the month and don't overdraft. That's most people. But tracking your transactions is a key, and you wanna do that, uh, once every day or other day. And again, if you do it once or every other day, it's like cleaning your room.

   12. LHLewis Howes17:29

       Mm.

   13. GKGeorge Kamel17:29

       You don't ever have to clean your room if you just-

   14. LHLewis Howes17:31

       Right

   15. GKGeorge Kamel17:31

       ... tidy up real quick.

   16. LHLewis Howes17:32

       Sure.

   17. GKGeorge Kamel17:33

       And so with EveryDollar, our budgeting app, this is as easy as just dragging the transaction. Like Ama- [clears throat] Amazon, drag it up to shopping. We're done. And so when you do that, you can actually see, do we have any money left for X-

   18. LHLewis Howes17:46

       Mm

   19. GKGeorge Kamel17:46

       ... Y, Z? Or, hey, we're over budget. We gotta figure something out. We gotta sacrifice. We gotta cut this category here. What most people do is just overspend in four different categories, and they go, "We're 1,000 bucks over, and we put it on the credit card."

   20. LHLewis Howes17:58

       Mm.

   21. GKGeorge Kamel17:58

       "We'll figure it out next month." And that's why it's important to not only do a budget but to use your own money, and I only have a, I have a, one debit card, and I use cash occasionally. That's it.

   22. LHLewis Howes18:07

       Wow.

   23. GKGeorge Kamel18:08

       My life is very simple in that way. And I have my business, my Ramsey business debit card as well.

   24. LHLewis Howes18:13

       What do you say to people that s- that say, "You know, well, I love having a credit card because it allows me to get points for flights," or, you know, whatever it might be, uh, for other perks, and if I'm tracking it just like I would a debit card, then I'm missing out on all these other perks.

   25. GKGeorge Kamel18:29

       Mm. Well, I found the people who actually could stand to benefit and actually have any meaningful rewards make enough money and spend enough that they don't need the rewards. So it's kind of hilarious at that point to be like, "If you make $150,000, the $1,000 in rewards is not

6. 18:45 – 22:24

   The Dangers of Credit Card Rewards

   1. GKGeorge Kamel18:45

      changing your life whatsoever."

   2. LHLewis Howes18:46

      Mm-hmm.

   3. GKGeorge Kamel18:46

      And the mental calories you're spending to play the game and maximize is not worth your time. And so I break down, there's... In, in chapter three on credit cards, I break down eight different character archetypes that I found with credit cards.

   4. LHLewis Howes18:58

      Wow.

   5. GKGeorge Kamel18:58

      And so there was the rewards redeemer.

   6. LHLewis Howes19:00

      Mm-hmm.

   7. GKGeorge Kamel19:00

      There's the world traveler, the person that's like, "I gotta have my airline miles."

   8. LHLewis Howes19:03

      Right.

   9. GKGeorge Kamel19:03

      And I break down, you gotta spend $50,000 in order, in order to get your $250 flight, but you don't even know that, 'cause what do they give you? Points and miles. What is 100,000 miles? We don't know anymore. The credit card companies wanna confuse us. And I found this out from an ex-Capital One employee. She told me verbatim that these credit card companies run 10,000 experiments a year on consumers, and A/B test them to go, "Oh, if we switch it from cash back to points, it triggers something different in their brain. It's like Chuck E. Cheese."

   10. LHLewis Howes19:34

       Wow.

   11. GKGeorge Kamel19:35

       You're like, "I don't know what 100,000 points is, but it feels like a lot."

   12. LHLewis Howes19:37

       Right.

   13. GKGeorge Kamel19:37

       "Let's sign up for the bonus."

   14. LHLewis Howes19:38

       That's like two candy bars. Yeah. [laughs]

   15. GKGeorge Kamel19:40

       Exactly. So most people, they're stepping over a dollar to hopefully pick up a quarter.

   16. LHLewis Howes19:44

       Wow.

   17. GKGeorge Kamel19:44

       And the average credit card interest rate now is 22% APR.

   18. LHLewis Howes19:47

       Wow.

   19. GKGeorge Kamel19:48

       But we're doing all this in hopes of getting 2% cash back. You're like, is it worth spending 100 bucks to get two bucks?

   20. LHLewis Howes19:54

       Mm.

   21. GKGeorge Kamel19:54

       What they tell me is, "Well, I'm not spending any differently than if it was my own money." I'm like, "You wanna bet? Here's $1,000 cash of your own money. Go hand over $1,000 and see the emotional pain it causes."

   22. LHLewis Howes20:05

       Right.

   23. GKGeorge Kamel20:06

       And so adding friction back into our life will actually help us spend less, and that's what happens when you use cash especially, but even a debit card. Your brain knows-

   24. LHLewis Howes20:14

       This is coming right out of my account

   25. GKGeorge Kamel20:14

       ... that's Lewis' money-

   26. LHLewis Howes20:15

       Yeah, yeah

   27. GKGeorge Kamel20:15

       ... right now. And so in the book, the thesis of that chapter is when it hurts, when it hurts less, it costs more.

   28. LHLewis Howes20:21

       Mm.

   29. GKGeorge Kamel20:21

       When we remove the friction, you're going to spend more. And I, I quote MIT studies using fMRI technology on the brain, and they're seeing when people swipe that credit card, it releases the brakes on spending and hits the accelerator.

   30. LHLewis Howes20:34

       Really?
7. 22:24 – 26:03

   The Fear of the Unknown in Personal Finances

   1. LHLewis Howes22:24

      money? What is the number one thing about money that stresses people out the most?

   2. GKGeorge Kamel22:27

      When it comes to stress, I think a lot of stress is based on fear of the unknown. And when you have headlines and economic uncertainty and what's the president gonna do or not gonna do, and are they gonna forgive student loans. And I have so much peace when it comes to personal finances because I ignore all of the noise, and I only focus on what I can control. When you start pointing fingers at, well, what are we gonna do about inflation and the cost of eggs, and dude, Congress has gotta get their act together, and the Fed, they keep messing with these interest rates, and the guy in the White House is to blame. All of that is, we can always complain about that for a moment, but at the end of the day, we got bills to pay.

   3. LHLewis Howes23:03

      Mm-hmm.

   4. GKGeorge Kamel23:04

      We got goals to achieve. And so I, I go through all of those excuses in chapter one to tell people, like, hey, we can point fingers and enjoy it, and that's cathartic. But at the end of the day, what you can control is the guy in the mirror and how he spends his money, and how she saves her money. And to me, that, that at first is kinda like, okay, I can control me. Whoop, whoop. But it's so empowering when you realize, like, oh, if I'm the problem, I'm the solution.

   5. LHLewis Howes23:28

      Mm-hmm.

   6. GKGeorge Kamel23:28

      This is amazing. And so I think that stress comes from the fear of the unknown and what could happen, and what if the stock market tanks. But when you have no debt, no lenders to pay, you have a fully funded emergency fund, and you've got wealth being built for the future, and you're thinking long term, you're not worried about what happens-

   7. LHLewis Howes23:46

      Right

   8. GKGeorge Kamel23:47

      ... tomorrow.

   9. LHLewis Howes23:47

      'Cause you've got your plan and you're sticking to it.

   10. GKGeorge Kamel23:49

       Exactly. I'm so confident in my plan, and it's not because I'm some, like, multimillionaire. It's, it's because I'm content with where I'm at.

   11. LHLewis Howes23:56

       Right.

   12. GKGeorge Kamel23:57

       I don't need a nex- ano- another million dollars tomorrow.

   13. LHLewis Howes23:59

       Yeah. You don't need a new watch. You don't need a new car. You don't need to go on five extra trips that you see other people doing.

   14. GKGeorge Kamel24:05

       Exactly.

   15. LHLewis Howes24:05

       You don't need to overspend because you have financial peace.

   16. GKGeorge Kamel24:08

       And the simpler you can create a, the simpler life you can create, the better off you're gonna be. 'Cause the more stuff you own, the more it kind of owns you. ... more complicated life gets. And so, you know, I was just hanging out with the minimalists, and we were talking about all of this stuff because we're seeing anxiety stems from the stuff around us.

   17. LHLewis Howes24:25

       Yes

   18. GKGeorge Kamel24:25

       And the less clutter in our life, emotionally, physically, financially, the better off we are. And I've never seen someone debt-free who's like, "My life is worse now that I have no debt."

   19. LHLewis Howes24:35

       Mm-hmm.

   20. GKGeorge Kamel24:35

       Not once. They always are levitating because they just have a peace about them, 'cause they're not keeping, their body's not keeping the score anymore of the debt that they owe.

   21. LHLewis Howes24:44

       Do you think people have more shame around being in debt, or more shame today about having an abundance of money?

   22. GKGeorge Kamel24:54

       Oh. Like, is there a, is there shame in like, "Well, I don't wanna... 'cause other people are hurting."

   23. LHLewis Howes24:59

       Yeah, yeah. I've got-

   24. GKGeorge Kamel25:00

       I have wealth and-

   25. LHLewis Howes25:00

       I've, I've figured out how to, like, take responsibility for my life and, you know, pay off the debts and then start building wealth, and I've actually done it now. I spent 10, 20, 30 years of actually creating something of value, and I've been smart with my money. Now I have it, which used to be, like, celebrated. Like-

   26. GKGeorge Kamel25:17

       Yeah

   27. LHLewis Howes25:17

       ... you know, you'd like, but now it's kind of like-

   28. GKGeorge Kamel25:18

       Well, we build nice wealth.

   29. LHLewis Howes25:19

       Yeah, so do you feel like sh- people have more shame around being in debt and broke, and a victim, that they don't have control of their life financially, or more shame about being rich?

   30. GKGeorge Kamel25:29

       Mm. Well, in a culture where debt has become celebrated, I think we've lost a level of shame that we oughta have.
8. 26:03 – 29:39

   The Shame of Wealth and the Power of Spouses

   1. GKGeorge Kamel26:03

      And it's this comparison culture and mentality of if he has something I don't, that's not fair. And, you know, it goes into basically social an- socialist anarchy at that point. Um, and so the best thing we can do, whether you... You know, we have people who follow the baby steps, and they're whispering to us like, "Hey, we're millionaires."

   2. LHLewis Howes26:20

      Right, right. They're not, they're not, like, owning it.

   3. GKGeorge Kamel26:21

      People have to whisper. They're not, like, shouting from the rooftops. But we live in such a weird world at Ramsey where we're celebrating people paying off debt. We're asking about income all day long. And so it's, there's, there's less shame in our Ramsey bubble, but it's weird that we whisper that.

   4. LHLewis Howes26:35

      Why do you think there's so much shame for people that have, you know, 100 grand or a million dollars of net worth, where they can't speak about it to their friends and family openly without feeling-

   5. GKGeorge Kamel26:45

      Mm

   6. LHLewis Howes26:45

      ... judged, attacked, having handouts everywhere, where people now, "Now you gotta pay off my debts." Is that what it is, that people are just shaming-

   7. GKGeorge Kamel26:53

      I think the-

   8. LHLewis Howes26:54

      ... people that have taken responsibility for their money?

   9. GKGeorge Kamel26:56

      The heart behind it is there's, there's wisdom to it. You know, y- me telling the, a random person or my friend, like, "Hey, bro, I got a million bucks," like, it's, it's out of context, and it's gonna make them feel small and less than. And so I think the heart of it is, is good. It's good intentions.

   10. LHLewis Howes27:13

       Yeah, yeah.

   11. GKGeorge Kamel27:13

       Um, and there's a time and a place to talk about it. The Ramsey Show is one of them. We love celebrating people. But going down the street being like, "I'm a millionaire. What are you guys doing?" It's hard. And so even with this book, like, I don't brag that I'm a millionaire. I tell people, like, "I'm the average George. If I can go from broke to millionaire, you can, too." So it's never a flex on my part. All it is, is I wanna empower other people that I didn't come from money. I am a W-2 employee. I didn't start my own business. I'm not a s- self-made entrepreneur. I'm a guy who just followed a simple plan and believes that anyone can become a millionaire in America today. And so I talk about money so that we don't have to talk about money. It's like, let's, let's take the shame out of it, and let's just make it fun and conversational, and it's ne- not, not about a flex. It's about encouraging and empowering each other.

   12. LHLewis Howes27:57

       Wow. So you're telling me you can work somewhere for a decade, not start your own business, not be hustling on the side constantly and, and, you know, spending all your time trying to earn more constantly, and you could get to millionaire status. Is that what you're telling me, it's possible?

   13. GKGeorge Kamel28:14

       It's possible. I think it's, looks different for a lot of people. You know, a, a part of my wealth building was my spouse, Whitney.

   14. LHLewis Howes28:20

       Mm.

   15. GKGeorge Kamel28:20

       I met her at Ramsey, and, uh, you know, we're, we are net worth millionaires together as a household. And people are always like, "Well, that doesn't count 'cause really you have to take half of that, 'cause what if you divorce?" I'm like, that's such a weird... That's like saying like, "Well, what if the stock market goes to zero? You're not a millionaire anymore." I'm like, "You're right. I, I wouldn't be." But I think a spouse is one of the most powerful wealth-building tools.

   16. LHLewis Howes28:40

       Really?

   17. GKGeorge Kamel28:40

       It's, it's underrated.

   18. LHLewis Howes28:41

       Tell me why.

   19. GKGeorge Kamel28:42

       Because when my wife and I met, uh, we were so aligned, obviously. We both worked at Ramsey. We drank the Kool-Aid, and it was good, and we were like... We started off our marriage debt-free. I had paid off my consumer debt at that point. She was much smarter than me, much better looking, much better at money management. And so, like, it's a life hack to start your marriage off debt-free-

   20. LHLewis Howes29:01

       Wow

   21. GKGeorge Kamel29:02

       ... already investing for the future, having the emergency fund, getting into a home. And we ended up paying off that home in 26 months because we were on the same page. Got a modest home that was within our means, and we both had the goal of like, what would it be like to not have a mortgage payment in our early 30s? What could we do? How could we give? What options would we have? And that led us down the path of, of paying off the house. That house appreciates in value over, over time. We've been investing 15% that whole time into our Roth 401Ks at Ramsey, boring investing stuff. And all of a sudden, you look up at your net worth calculation and you're like, the equity in our home and in retirement accounts,

9. 29:39 – 33:24

   Building Wealth and Marriage Conflict

   1. GKGeorge Kamel29:39

      we're millionaires. And so it's, it's, I don't say that to minimize how, you know, the sacrifice that we made and the side hustles that I did, and us getting promoted over the years, over a decade. [smacks lips] Uh, it, it may take people 15 years or 20 years. Uh, it may take dual income. You know, we had dual income, no kids at the time. We got two French bulldogs, which was a real net worth suck.

   2. LHLewis Howes30:00

      Oh, that's, that's a, that's a couple hundred a month.

   3. GKGeorge Kamel30:01

      That will drain the bank account.

   4. LHLewis Howes30:02

      You know? Yeah.

   5. GKGeorge Kamel30:03

      We just had a little girl four months ago, and I promise you, the dogs are still more expensive than a baby.

   6. LHLewis Howes30:07

      [laughs] Congrats, man.

   7. GKGeorge Kamel30:08

      Thank you. So all of that together to, uh, I s- I say that to go, it may not look the same for everyone. So this is not a, "Hey, if I can't do it in 10 years, I'm a failure." But, uh, I think people Imagine, well, it's gonna take me 35 years to build wealth. It really doesn't take that long when you get intentional and focused and follow the Ramsey baby steps. Average person following the baby steps pays off their home in seven years.

   8. LHLewis Howes30:30

      Wow.

   9. GKGeorge Kamel30:31

      That's not a long time. If you're 22, it feels like an eternity.

   10. LHLewis Howes30:34

       Yes.

   11. GKGeorge Kamel30:34

       But you're gonna be seven years older.

   12. LHLewis Howes30:36

       Yeah.

   13. GKGeorge Kamel30:37

       So where do you wanna be?

   14. LHLewis Howes30:37

       Time's gonna pass, yeah.

   15. GKGeorge Kamel30:38

       You wanna be debt-free or not?

   16. LHLewis Howes30:40

       Right. What do you think is the, the three biggest questions everyone should ask before they get married?

   17. GKGeorge Kamel30:48

       Ooh, this is a good one. I was just on, uh, Chris Harrison from The Bachelor.

   18. LHLewis Howes30:53

       Uh-huh.

   19. GKGeorge Kamel30:53

       So I was talking to him a- and his wife about this, and, like, what questions to ask when you're dating someone, when to bring all this up. But I think one of the best questions to ask is not about, you know, you don't wanna ask about, "Hey, how much debt do you have?" on your, on the first date. "What's your income?" Like, "What's your life plan?" What you wanna ask is, "What are your views around debt?" Just wh- what are your values when it comes to building wealth? That, to me, says a whole lot more about a person than their current status.

   20. LHLewis Howes31:20

       Mm.

   21. GKGeorge Kamel31:21

       And so I'm never gonna be like, "You better find someone who's debt-free, who's a mil-", you know. It's not about that. It's about where are they trying to go? 'Cause if they're trying to hang on to debt, and they're gonna continue to spend more than they make, probably not someone I wanna be with long term.

   22. LHLewis Howes31:33

       Yeah, if they've got seven credit cards, and-

   23. GKGeorge Kamel31:35

       Yeah

   24. LHLewis Howes31:35

       ... you know, they're in a ton of debt, that may not be the... And they think that's good.

   25. GKGeorge Kamel31:39

       Yes.

   26. LHLewis Howes31:39

       That may not be a sign of alignment-

   27. GKGeorge Kamel31:43

       Yes

   28. LHLewis Howes31:43

       ... of financial freedom in the future.

   29. GKGeorge Kamel31:45

       Exactly, and that's gonna hurt. That's only gonna cause resentment. We see that one of the number one causes of divorce in America today is money fights and money problems.

   30. LHLewis Howes31:52

       Wow.
10. 33:24 – 36:52

    The Impact of Financial Infidelity on Relationships

    1. GKGeorge Kamel33:24

       Mm, that's a great question.

    2. LHLewis Howes33:26

       Based on all the case studies you've seen come through in the Ramsey Show, and your experience, and people you know, what do you think?

    3. GKGeorge Kamel33:33

       I think there's a good distinction to make, uh, between you don't need to have two savers in a relationship to make it work. You can have the free spirit spender, and you can have the nerd saver who loves to do the budget. You can have a long, healthy marriage that way. But if you have someone who's saying, "I wanna hang on to debt. I wanna continue to spend more than we make. I don't care. YOLO. Forget about the future," and this other person who has, you know, a real fear about, like, "We're gonna be screwed. We're never gonna be able to retire," eventually that's gonna cause enough, uh, strife in the relationship that either you shut down and brush it all under the rug, and there's a lot of resentment, or it ends up in divorce.

    4. LHLewis Howes34:10

       Wow.

    5. GKGeorge Kamel34:11

       And that's what we've seen, is there's financial infidelity. And one of the n- uh-

    6. LHLewis Howes34:14

       What is financial infidelity?

    7. GKGeorge Kamel34:16

       Well, it's, it's not cheating on your spouse, but it's not communicating honestly about finances. This is when you have that other account over here.

    8. LHLewis Howes34:24

       Ooh.

    9. GKGeorge Kamel34:24

       And we bought this thing, and I didn't tell you about it-

    10. LHLewis Howes34:26

        Mm

    11. GKGeorge Kamel34:27

        ... because of fear or because I knew what they would say if I bought this thing. And what that does is you, you lose trust, and relationships are entirely built on trust.

    12. LHLewis Howes34:36

        Mm-hmm.

    13. GKGeorge Kamel34:36

        And money is a really emotional piece of that trust puzzle, and it's hard to rebuild trust, really easy to break. All it takes is one purchase without the spouse knowing. And we've seen this time and time again on the Ramsey Show, where one spouse spends over here. The other spouse didn't know about it, and they're calling in going, "What do I do? How do I repair this relationship?" And it's less of a financial question at that point. You know, we know what to do financially, but it's how do we move forward in the relationship that's really tough.

    14. LHLewis Howes35:03

        How do you repair a relationship if there's been financial infidelity?

    15. GKGeorge Kamel35:07

        Well, uh, counseling is, is always a start, and more open, honest communication together over a long period of time.

    16. LHLewis Howes35:14

        Yeah.

    17. GKGeorge Kamel35:14

        Um, and trust is one of those things where I have to see a pattern of trustworthiness, and that takes a long time. Sometimes it can take years to fully repair that.

    18. LHLewis Howes35:22

        Wow.

    19. GKGeorge Kamel35:23

        'Cause it's always in the back of that person's mind. It could happen any time now. Just like with a cheater, you're like, they could cheat again. We don't, we don't truly know.

    20. LHLewis Howes35:30

        Mm-hmm.

    21. GKGeorge Kamel35:31

        And so I, what that looks like is making that monthly budget together, combining bank accounts for transparency. That's one of the biggest things I've seen today, is people are so against combining bank accounts. I'm like, you share a bed, you share DNA, you have a baby together, but you can't share a bank account?

    22. LHLewis Howes35:47

        Wow.

    23. GKGeorge Kamel35:47

        This is crazy. So they live like roommates, Venmoing each other back and forth, splitting expenses and hairs, and then wondering why they don't have a great marriage.

    24. LHLewis Howes35:55

        Interesting.

    25. GKGeorge Kamel35:56

        So the best couples I know have full transparency and communication around money. They have combined bank accounts, and they still have their independence.

    26. LHLewis Howes36:04

        Wow.

    27. GKGeorge Kamel36:04

        Lewis has his line item in the budget for fun money. It's not about control on one person's part, of going, "You can't spend that way." It's, we agreed Lewis has $500 to spend on shoes this month.

    28. LHLewis Howes36:14

        Right, right.

    29. GKGeorge Kamel36:15

        And she has $600, 'cause that's how it should be.

    30. LHLewis Howes36:17

        [laughs]
11. 36:52 – 40:21

    Overcoming Debt in Relationships

    1. LHLewis Howes36:52

       Mm.

    2. GKGeorge Kamel36:52

       And so what happens is you lose the we when it comes to relationships and money, and it becomes, "Yeah, but that's her mistake."

    3. LHLewis Howes36:58

       Right.

    4. GKGeorge Kamel36:58

       "She's gonna pay that off." And nothing builds a marriage like going, "That's her thing to deal with."

    5. LHLewis Howes37:03

       [laughs]

    6. GKGeorge Kamel37:04

       Like, you gotta be in this together.

    7. LHLewis Howes37:05

       Wow.

    8. GKGeorge Kamel37:06

       And so that's a hard thing, too. One person brings in a whole bunch of debt to the relationship, and you get married. Well, Lewis has been saving $100,000 in a savings account. She comes in with 100,000, and we go, "That savings account for that house just turned into the pay off her debt fund."

    9. LHLewis Howes37:19

       Oh, man.

    10. GKGeorge Kamel37:20

        And that hurts.

    11. LHLewis Howes37:21

        That's gotta create some resentment for people, right?

    12. GKGeorge Kamel37:23

        100%.

    13. LHLewis Howes37:23

        So how do you... I mean, that's why you gotta choose wisely, I guess.

    14. GKGeorge Kamel37:27

        That's part of it.

    15. LHLewis Howes37:27

        Or, or know, like, "Okay, I'm choosing this, knowing my money is gonna support this debt or this person's past decision-making," right, that, that got her in this position, or him-

    16. GKGeorge Kamel37:37

        You're taking that whole person on-

    17. LHLewis Howes37:38

        Interesting

    18. GKGeorge Kamel37:38

        ... in marriage.

    19. LHLewis Howes37:39

        You gotta accept them

    20. GKGeorge Kamel37:40

        Not just the good parts you like.

    21. LHLewis Howes37:40

        You gotta, you gotta accept them. That's one of the reasons that, you know, you gotta [laughs] most people hope for, like, potential for that they're gonna change, but you gotta accept who they are when you're getting into a relationship. That's a whole nother conversation around this.

    22. GKGeorge Kamel37:51

        Oh, yeah. But, uh, that's a hard part. That I totally understand.

    23. LHLewis Howes37:54

        Yeah.

    24. GKGeorge Kamel37:55

        'Cause one person worked really hard to save up this money, and they were diligent and disciplined, and one person made this financial mistake, probably before marriage happened, and they're still grappling with the reality of student loans and the car loan, and it hurts. But-

    25. LHLewis Howes38:08

        Is there an amount of debt-

    26. GKGeorge Kamel38:08

        It's one pile

    27. LHLewis Howes38:09

        ... is there an amount of debt where love is not enough?

    28. GKGeorge Kamel38:12

        [laughs]

    29. LHLewis Howes38:13

        That one person has-

    30. GKGeorge Kamel38:14

        Like after a million dollars in debt?
12. 40:21 – 44:07

    Healing Marriages through Financial Alignment

    1. GKGeorge Kamel40:21

       journey actually heal marriages. It's inspiring.

    2. LHLewis Howes40:23

       Really?

    3. GKGeorge Kamel40:23

       Where they were on the brink of divorce. They go through Financial Peace University. They finally get aligned about, they're, they're going the same direction, maybe for the first time, and all of a sudden, at the end, they're like, "Well, what did all that debt-free stuff do? It helped us communicate better."

    4. LHLewis Howes40:37

       Mm.

    5. GKGeorge Kamel40:37

       "Get aligned."

    6. LHLewis Howes40:38

       Wow.

    7. GKGeorge Kamel40:39

       "Have the same vision." And what that does is create a better marriage.

    8. LHLewis Howes40:42

       Right.

    9. GKGeorge Kamel40:43

       And so I think there's a beautiful part that is underpinning all this financial stuff we do that creates transformation in other areas of life. We've seen people lose 100 pounds while on the debt-free journey because transformation begets transformation.

    10. LHLewis Howes40:54

        Right.

    11. GKGeorge Kamel40:55

        You start believing-

    12. LHLewis Howes40:55

        It's not just one area. It's like you have to s- take inventory and stock of every area of life and start being disciplined and have better habits and all these different things.

    13. GKGeorge Kamel41:03

        It goes back to I, w- 97% believe they control their financial destiny.

    14. LHLewis Howes41:07

        Mm.

    15. GKGeorge Kamel41:08

        Once you realize you have a sense of agency and autonomy over your life, you're like, "What else can't I do? Tell me I can't go run that marathon or lose 100 pounds-

    16. LHLewis Howes41:16

        Right

    17. GKGeorge Kamel41:16

        ... or switch career paths." It's, it's-

    18. LHLewis Howes41:18

        Yeah

    19. GKGeorge Kamel41:18

        ... like an invincible feeling that is, that's really the empowerment and inspiration behind The Ramsey Show.

    20. LHLewis Howes41:22

        You build that momentum. What do you think is the thing that keeps people in a victim mentality the most around money?

    21. GKGeorge Kamel41:30

        So one of my core beliefs, and I, I talk about it in the book, is that it's not all your fault, but it's your responsibility.

    22. LHLewis Howes41:36

        Mm-hmm.

    23. GKGeorge Kamel41:37

        And one of the biggest keys to staying in this victim mentality, and I understand people had some real things happen to them, and so I don't wanna minimize the fact that there's people who are, have been hurt, and there's been trauma, and life has really happened to them, but the key is they realize it's my responsibility to move forward. I can't wait for someone else to come fix all of this. That's what I think keeps people in the victim mentality, whether it's student loan forgiveness. That's just one area that's easy to point at and go, like, are you gonna wait and hope that the next person running for office actually comes through with the promise to get your vote, or you can do the hard work and work that side job and not eat out in order to create margin to pay off the debt yourself. And that, to me, is the single variant of a victor or a victim, is am I in control.

    24. LHLewis Howes42:27

        Mm-hmm.

    25. GKGeorge Kamel42:28

        Yes, it's not all my fault, but it's my responsibility, not by my hand, but it's in my lap. What am I gonna do? And those are the heroes we celebrate, the ones that, in spite of all that, go, "I'm gonna do, I'm gonna freaking take down Goliath. I don't care. Nothing's gonna stop me." Those are the ones we wanna root for.

    26. LHLewis Howes42:43

        Mm-hmm. Yeah. If someone's got, if someone's making around 70,000 to $120,000 a year, in that range- And they feel overwhelmed with money. What is the root of that overwhelm if they're in that 70,000 to 120,000 range?

    27. GKGeorge Kamel42:59

        Mm.

    28. LHLewis Howes42:59

        Is it they're overspending? Is it they don't feel like they're keeping up with their friends? Is it... What do you think is that, that cause of stress and anxiety around money in that range?

    29. GKGeorge Kamel43:10

        Well, the average household income in America is about 71 grand. And so if you're making 71 grand, you're doing pretty well. And if you're making 70 to 120, in most areas, right, like LA 120 is very different from an Idaho 120.

    30. LHLewis Howes43:23

        Mm-hmm.
13. 44:07 – 48:12

    The Scam of Student Loans

    1. GKGeorge Kamel44:07

       six figures are living paycheck to paycheck, and that makes people irate.

    2. LHLewis Howes44:10

       A third of people making six figures a year are living-

    3. GKGeorge Kamel44:13

       Paycheck

    4. LHLewis Howes44:13

       ... paycheck to paycheck.

    5. GKGeorge Kamel44:14

       One paycheck-

    6. LHLewis Howes44:14

       Month to month

    7. GKGeorge Kamel44:15

       ... doesn't show up, they're screwed.

    8. LHLewis Howes44:16

       Really?

    9. GKGeorge Kamel44:16

       That was a shocking stat. That wasn't even Ramsey research. That was outside research, and we were like, "That makes sense," because people calling the Ramsey show just this last week, we're taking calls from people making 190 grand, 250 grand, and they can't breathe.

    10. LHLewis Howes44:29

        Why?

    11. GKGeorge Kamel44:29

        And we go, well, you start adding up all the toys they have-

    12. LHLewis Howes44:33

        Oh, my gosh

    13. GKGeorge Kamel44:33

        ... and the luxury cars. They got s- hundred, they, $60,000 car loan here. They're underwater on it. It's only worth 40 now. And they bought a house that was a little too much house. They bit off more than they can chew, and the mortgage payment is 60% of their take-home pay.

    14. LHLewis Howes44:47

        Psh.

    15. GKGeorge Kamel44:48

        And so you add up all that, and they got a credit card balance now, and they got the personal loan, and they still have the student loan, and all of this just compounds.

    16. LHLewis Howes44:56

        And they gotta fix stuff. They gotta, you know.

    17. GKGeorge Kamel44:58

        They have no emergency fund.

    18. LHLewis Howes44:59

        Right.

    19. GKGeorge Kamel44:59

        Four in 10 people have zero dollars in savings. And so you add up all these stats, and you're going like, America has become land of the free and home of the broke. Like, how did we get here? This is an amazing country with so much opportunity. We have more ti- we have, uh, the most advanced society in the world, and we have less time and money than ever before. Like, when are we gonna wake up and just break free from all this and go like, "This ain't working. Let's try a different way"?

    20. LHLewis Howes45:22

        Wow.

    21. GKGeorge Kamel45:22

        And that's why I'm, I'm out here from the rooftops going like, "Here's how to do it. Break free from the system. Like, you don't need a credit, ditch the credit cards. Screw the student loans."

    22. LHLewis Howes45:30

        Uh-huh.

    23. GKGeorge Kamel45:31

        And it's, it's a hard road to travel. It's swimming upstream because we are so desensitized to debt-

    24. LHLewis Howes45:38

        Wow

    25. GKGeorge Kamel45:38

        ... in today's world.

    26. LHLewis Howes45:40

        Here's a stat that I saw that you mentioned in the book. 43 million Americans carry a total of 1.6 trillion in student loans, and also, the average student loan debt per borrower is almost $40,000 at an average interest rate of 5.5%. Uh, so this amounts to a payment of about $393 a month. Based on those numbers, let's do some math that will move you from sad to angry. If you pay 393 per month for 20 years, you will have paid more than $94,000 in total payments on a loan that was $40,000 at graduation. And, um, then you say, "Are you punching a hole in the wall yet?"

    27. GKGeorge Kamel46:21

        [laughs]

    28. LHLewis Howes46:22

        You know, what is your thoughts on getting into a good school, taking on 20, $40,000 a year in student loans, uh, and graduating with 2 to $400,000 in student loans? What's your thoughts on that dream that universities and colleges are selling teenage students today?

    29. GKGeorge Kamel46:42

        Mm. Well, I, I think student loans and higher education has, has become a normalized scam in America today.

    30. LHLewis Howes46:50

        Wow.
14. 48:12 – 51:57

    The Trap of Student Loans and False Promises

    1. LHLewis Howes48:12

       where I could play sports. That was different, to help me get into being a professional athlete.

    2. GKGeorge Kamel48:15

       Yes.

    3. LHLewis Howes48:15

       I took on debt, but I was able to pay it off within, like, seven years. And, or some other, like, specialty skill, but usually you can find an internship, a mentorship. You can learn stuff online now that's affordable or free, and learn these things, and try to work somewhere during there as well. Is there ever a time... You know, Winston Churchill, you said in the book, a quote from Winston Churchill, "I began my education at a very early age. In fact, right after I left college." I think it was someone else, maybe it was Einstein or someone that said, "Don't let schooling get in the way of your education."

    4. GKGeorge Kamel48:51

       Oh, yeah, maybe in a Twain quote or something.

    5. LHLewis Howes48:52

       Mark Twain.

    6. GKGeorge Kamel48:53

       That's a good one.

    7. LHLewis Howes48:53

       Yeah. "Don't let schooling get in the way of your education."

    8. GKGeorge Kamel48:55

       I almost used that one.

    9. LHLewis Howes48:56

       Yeah.

    10. GKGeorge Kamel48:56

        Well, it's become about the experience

    11. LHLewis Howes48:58

        Yeah

    12. GKGeorge Kamel48:58

        I think if we can admit that now. Look at colleges. They got, you know, they got whirlpools that they're selling in the, in the college-

    13. LHLewis Howes49:04

        Right

    14. GKGeorge Kamel49:04

        ... brochures, and look at the ca- world-class cafeteria and the chefs. It's not about the education anymore. It's now become about mom and dad's reputation.

    15. LHLewis Howes49:12

        Right.

    16. GKGeorge Kamel49:13

        And the parents can't brag to their friends about the kid going to community college-

    17. LHLewis Howes49:16

        Right

    18. GKGeorge Kamel49:16

        ... down the road. And so what parents are doing is saying, "Hey, go to that school. We'll, we'll figure it out." What that turns into is we'll take out student loans in their name, we've seen that on the Ramsey Show. We'll co-sign Parent PLUS loans, which just means the parent just took out debt, and here's what we've seen. The kids can't always pay, and it falls back on the parent, and it makes Thanksgiving dinner real awkward.

    19. LHLewis Howes49:38

        Mm.

    20. GKGeorge Kamel49:38

        And so all of that, it, it turns into people paying for student loans for 20 years is the average, and the balance grows over time. They're paying this down with the minimum payment, so they think, or these income-driven repayment plans, and they started with 40 grand. Well, now the balance is 60 because they were in deferment, and they couldn't pay, and they're trying to get the job, and there wasn't this magic, you know, job at the end of the college rainbow-

    21. LHLewis Howes50:03

        Mm

    22. GKGeorge Kamel50:03

        ... with the salary they thought they were gonna get. I interviewed high schoolers, and they were just, like, flabbergasted when I was like, "You're not gonna make 100 grand straight out of college with that degree."

    23. LHLewis Howes50:13

        They thought they would?

    24. GKGeorge Kamel50:14

        Yeah. They all think, "Well, I'll just make six figures. It'll be fine, so I'll take on 200 grand in debt. I'll pay it. I'll be able to pay it off," not realizing what your paycheck's gonna be after taxes and what that's gonna look like when you already have a car payment. And now everyone's telling you when you graduate, you gotta get a house.

    25. LHLewis Howes50:29

        Mm.

    26. GKGeorge Kamel50:29

        What are you doing? You're a college graduate.

    27. LHLewis Howes50:31

        Or tr-

    28. GKGeorge Kamel50:31

        That's the American dream

    29. LHLewis Howes50:32

        ... travel the world and, you know-

    30. GKGeorge Kamel50:33

        You gotta travel
15. 51:57 – 55:29

    Learning Outside the Classroom and Financial Freedom

    1. LHLewis Howes51:57

       to do this thing. I'm gonna do it," how to get feedback and receive feedback, how to communicate with teammates and work with a team. All those skills, I was like, "This is school for me." Like, I'm learning more in this two hours of practice than eight hours of a classroom. And I remember saying to myself, like, after school was done, 'cause it was just a painful experience emotionally and, and-

    2. GKGeorge Kamel52:18

       Yeah

    3. LHLewis Howes52:18

       ... spiritually in a sense. It was just like I couldn't wait for things to be done. And I was like, "I am an idiot." Like, after school was over, I was like, "I still don't know anything," and the things that I, the degree I got, like, I'll never use this, and all these different things. And I was like, "I need to learn a lot. I, there's still so much I need to learn." And I remember thinking to myself before I started The School of Greatness 10 years ago, I was like, "I wanna start something where I can learn from the smartest people in the world and get the best education, and it's not gonna be, uh, sitting in a classroom all day. It's gonna be learning one-to-one and then figuring out, how can I share this with the world?" And that's why-

    4. GKGeorge Kamel52:57

       Mm

    5. LHLewis Howes52:57

       ... school, it's a school of greatness. I was like, this is what I wish I learned growing up, stuff that you talk about in your book. No one talks about this stuff.

    6. GKGeorge Kamel53:04

       Yeah.

    7. LHLewis Howes53:04

       No one teaches you about the, the financial strain you might have for your whole life if you do certain things. They don't teach us about how to deal with losing or failure or our emotions or all this different stuff that we need as adults, this different type of education. That's why I created The School of Greatness.

    8. GKGeorge Kamel53:21

       Yeah.

    9. LHLewis Howes53:21

       And that's why I'm glad that you're here talking about financial freedom and breaking free from broke, uh, like you have in your book. Um, so the biggest financial scam that you think right now is college.

    10. GKGeorge Kamel53:35

        It's the one, it's the one that our generation was sold.

    11. LHLewis Howes53:37

        Wow.

    12. GKGeorge Kamel53:37

        I mean, think about, like, from a young age, that's the path you're sold is that you just-

    13. LHLewis Howes53:41

        What school are you gonna go to? Yeah

    14. GKGeorge Kamel53:42

        ... get good grades to go to this school to get a better job that pays more money so that you can have a better financial life. It doesn't pan out these days. For most people, they, number one, either don't finish school, they don't use their degree, and they're paying it off s- for so long that there's no ROI there. And yes, there, you know, there's trades, of course, that I think are undervalued in today's world, and you can go to trade school and pay for that in cash-

    15. LHLewis Howes54:08

        Yeah

    16. GKGeorge Kamel54:09

        ... and be making more than your buddy who has his philosophy degree.

    17. LHLewis Howes54:12

        Right. Right.

    18. GKGeorge Kamel54:13

        And so I think there's a lot of value in all kinds of work.

    19. LHLewis Howes54:16

        Mm-hmm.

    20. GKGeorge Kamel54:17

        And in the world we live in today, I mean, gosh, you can start a YouTube channel and podcast and be just fine. And so there's so many opportunities out there that I think, especially the younger generations, they're starting to sniff this out and go, "Mom, Dad, I'm not gonna go to your alma mater."

    21. LHLewis Howes54:30

        No, unless your parents wanna pay for it-

    22. GKGeorge Kamel54:32

        Yes

    23. LHLewis Howes54:32

        ... and take, and say, "We're gonna pay everything, and you don't have to worry about any debt," and they just wanna do it out of the kindness-

    24. GKGeorge Kamel54:37

        Go for it

    25. LHLewis Howes54:37

        ... of their heart, and it's like, okay, then, then maybe that's a thing you could do for four years to learn or four and a half, five years or whatever, and get the experience.

    26. GKGeorge Kamel54:44

        But you, you might be better off going to Europe for, you know-

    27. LHLewis Howes54:46

        That's true

    28. GKGeorge Kamel54:46

        ... send me to Europe for 30 grand-

    29. LHLewis Howes54:47

        Learn a language-

    30. GKGeorge Kamel54:48

        And it's still cheaper
16. 55:29 – 59:23

    The Truth About Student Loans and Wealth

    1. GKGeorge Kamel55:29

       paying on those student loans.

    2. LHLewis Howes55:30

       Wow.

    3. GKGeorge Kamel55:30

       And you're going from a nurse to a nurse practitioner and to doctor and pharmacist, and all of these paths, they ca- take a lot of money, and sometimes you go, "I thought I was gonna make $300,000. I'm in residency and I'm not making squat." You know? And so there's just a lot of misinformation and myths around what the future will look like. And when you do it without debt, you just have less stress.

    4. LHLewis Howes55:53

       Yes.

    5. GKGeorge Kamel55:53

       You have more peace about the next step, and you can, you have different options.

    6. LHLewis Howes55:56

       Yes.

    7. GKGeorge Kamel55:57

       You don't have to take that first job. You can wait.

    8. LHLewis Howes56:00

       What would you say are the three biggest killers of wealth in America?

    9. GKGeorge Kamel56:04

       Ooh. I, on my YouTube channel, I did a video and it was America's number one wealth killer, and it was about car loans, and that one blew up. And-

    10. LHLewis Howes56:12

        Tell me why.

    11. GKGeorge Kamel56:13

        Because I did the math, and math sometimes is offensive.

    12. LHLewis Howes56:16

        [laughs]

    13. GKGeorge Kamel56:17

        Um, of what that car payment would be if you had just simply invested it.

    14. LHLewis Howes56:21

        Wow.

    15. GKGeorge Kamel56:22

        And it was millions of dollars. We're talking, like, $6 million if you invest the average car payment.

    16. LHLewis Howes56:26

        Give me a breakdown of this.

    17. GKGeorge Kamel56:28

        Well, if you take, you know, the average car payment, I think in the book was, you know, 600 bucks now, 700 bucks for a new car.

    18. LHLewis Howes56:34

        A month.

    19. GKGeorge Kamel56:34

        Yeah, 700 bucks for a new car.

    20. LHLewis Howes56:36

        Five grand down probably, 700 a month-

    21. GKGeorge Kamel56:38

        Yeah

    22. LHLewis Howes56:38

        ... or so, yeah.

    23. GKGeorge Kamel56:39

        That's normal now, 'cause new cars are now 40, 50 grand. And so 700 bucks a month invested in the S&P 500, which historically, you know, we'll see a 10% return, 11% return, well, over 30 years of your career, 700 bucks a month, it's a freaking lot of money, and it turns into millions and millions of dollars.

    24. LHLewis Howes56:58

        Really?

    25. GKGeorge Kamel56:59

        Now, the opposite side is, let's say you're gonna be the tortoise. You're gonna be me and you're gonna go, "Well, I'm gonna buy the $6,000 car, and I'm gonna slowly upgrade over time to the used $12,000 car, maybe eventually to the $20,000 car, 30,000, whatever." You're gonna do it with cash over a long period of time, and that payment you would have had, you can put that away, save it, invest it, sinking funds, all of that, and you're not paying any interest. And so I think the choices we make because of loans, we go, "Well, I can't afford a $50,000 car, but I can afford a $500 monthly payment," it's broken. Like, wealthy people ask a different question. They don't ask how much down, how much a month. They ask, "How much? What is the full price?"

    26. LHLewis Howes57:39

        Mm.

    27. GKGeorge Kamel57:39

        "And if I can't afford it, I'm not buying it."

    28. LHLewis Howes57:42

        I'm gonna pay it all in cash right now and not have this, this payment over time.

    29. GKGeorge Kamel57:48

        Absolutely. So I, I think car loans are number one.

    30. LHLewis Howes57:50

        What's the, what's the benefit of, say someone's like, "I wanna buy a really fancy car. You know, I wanna buy a 50 to maybe a $80,000 car, $100,000 car." And they say to themselves, "Why spend 100 grand on a car when I can just pay, you know, 1,300 a month and keep that cash. I can invest that cash in the market, and that's gonna grow for me and pay down my payments over time." What do you say to that?
17. 59:23 – 1:03:03

    The Hazards of Depreciating Assets

    1. GKGeorge Kamel59:23

       when you look at that $100,000 car, and if, the more expensive the car, the more it's gonna depreciate most likely. You know, $100,000 car, we've seen, and I, I talk about this in the book, uh, in five years it goes down 60% in value.

    2. LHLewis Howes59:35

       Wow.

    3. GKGeorge Kamel59:36

       Five years. So $100,000 down to $40,000. You're like, "That hurts my brain-

    4. LHLewis Howes59:43

       Yeah

    5. GKGeorge Kamel59:43

       ... to think about."

    6. LHLewis Howes59:44

       It's a depreciating asset, yeah.

    7. GKGeorge Kamel59:45

       And so you're paying interest on the depreciating asset, and so you're g- you're getting hurt on both ends there.

    8. LHLewis Howes59:50

       Wow.

    9. GKGeorge Kamel59:51

       And what we found on the Ramsey Show, almost every single caller is saying, "Help me, I'm underwater in my car. I owe 60, it's only worth 40. What do I do?"

    10. LHLewis Howes1:00:00

        What do they do?

    11. GKGeorge Kamel1:00:01

        You don't have that problem when you don't have a car payment.

    12. LHLewis Howes1:00:03

        Right.

    13. GKGeorge Kamel1:00:03

        When you just paid in cash.

    14. LHLewis Howes1:00:04

        What do those people do if they've, in that situation though? What do you guys suggest?

    15. GKGeorge Kamel1:00:08

        There's only a few options. Uh, number one is you just hang on to the car and pay it off. Number two, you come up with the difference. So let's say you're 20 grand underwater, you come up with 20 grand in cash, saving up over time, in order to pay off that loan in full.

    16. LHLewis Howes1:00:23

        Wow.

    17. GKGeorge Kamel1:00:23

        Then the other option is you go to your local credit union and get a personal loan for the difference, and say, listen, the same place that gave you the loan in the first place, you go, "You got a bad loan on your hands. You got bad collateral here, 'cause what you gave me, this asset is not worth that anymore. Can I have the difference in order to get rid of this asset, get it out of my life, get out from under this car payment?" So it's, none of them, none of those options are pretty, by the way.

    18. LHLewis Howes1:00:47

        Yeah. So you don't think you should ever get a car loan?

    19. GKGeorge Kamel1:00:49

        No.

    20. LHLewis Howes1:00:50

        Yeah.

    21. GKGeorge Kamel1:00:50

        I don't think it's wise. Uh, there's a lot of, like, you know, financial people out there going like, "Well, here's the parameters, and if you do it this much down..."

    22. LHLewis Howes1:00:57

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    23. GKGeorge Kamel1:00:57

        You know, I've seen it all. But what I've also seen is people who build wealth with intentionality, and they're not trying to flex, they just buy the cars they can afford.

    24. LHLewis Howes1:01:04

        Right.

    25. GKGeorge Kamel1:01:05

        And once you have no payments, and that's a value you live by, you just make different decisions 'Cause once payments are normal on one end, you're just gonna go, "Well, it's fine. I already got a payment here. I got a payment there."

    26. LHLewis Howes1:01:16

        Yeah.

    27. GKGeorge Kamel1:01:16

        When you decide, "I'm done with debt," it is so freeing, 'cause you just go, "I could save up 20 grand. I know how to do that."

    28. LHLewis Howes1:01:21

        Mm.

    29. GKGeorge Kamel1:01:22

        "I did it for the down payment. I did it for college. I can do it for the car."

    30. LHLewis Howes1:01:25

        Yeah.
18. 1:03:03 – 1:06:29

    Renting vs. Homeownership

    1. LHLewis Howes1:03:03

       also, it's just like homes are getting more and more expensive. I mean, a home in, in Los Angeles is pretty unaffordable for a lot of people compared to maybe Idaho or something, where a home might be a different price. Um, but should we be buying our own home and taking on this massive mortgage and this massive debt and these payments every month, and then having to fix things up and, you know, break a, you know, fix the roof and the, the water or the systems, whatever it is.

    2. GKGeorge Kamel1:03:28

       Yeah.

    3. LHLewis Howes1:03:28

       And all the state taxes, and all these other fees that come with owning a house.

    4. GKGeorge Kamel1:03:32

       It's no joke.

    5. LHLewis Howes1:03:33

       Or, or just rent a house, let someone else take care of all that stress, and you stay in a space that is more flexible for you.

    6. GKGeorge Kamel1:03:40

       Yeah. Well, I think renting has got a real bad rap in today's world, and I hate that because I think renting is very wise.

    7. LHLewis Howes1:03:46

       Yeah.

    8. GKGeorge Kamel1:03:46

       It's buying patience. And for a lot of people, it does make sense. And if you're living in a high cost of living city, like, you're not entitled to be a homeowner j- and you live in New York City or LA. Like, it's gonna be harder. If you wanna buy a home in San Francisco, and that's where you choose to live-

    9. LHLewis Howes1:03:59

       Yeah

    10. GKGeorge Kamel1:04:00

        ... you better have the income to support living in San Francisco. And so I think homeownership is a great goal that everyone should have, uh, to at some point be a homeowner and have that house paid off. And we've seen that as part of the Millionaire study. A paid off home was a huge part of their net worth.

    11. LHLewis Howes1:04:15

        Really?

    12. GKGeorge Kamel1:04:15

        It was about a third of the, of their net worth of millionaires was in a paid for home.

    13. LHLewis Howes1:04:19

        Wow.

    14. GKGeorge Kamel1:04:19

        And the average millionaire paid off their home in 10.2 years. And so I think it's a huge part. I think renting forever is also a bad plan of just going, 'cause rent's gonna go up over time.

    15. LHLewis Howes1:04:29

        Mm.

    16. GKGeorge Kamel1:04:29

        'Cause those homeowners' property taxes go up over time, and someone owns that house. And so that's also a bad plan. I want you to have a fixed expense of a home, and then soon pay that off. And so we all, here's the way to do it to where you know you're not making a poor decision. Only w- only buy a house when you're financially ready. And that has nothing to do with home prices and interest rates. It has everything to do with your own financial home.

    17. LHLewis Howes1:04:52

        How do you know when you're financially ready to buy a home?

    18. GKGeorge Kamel1:04:55

        Once you're completely debt free of consumer debt, you've done the debt snowball, you have a fully funded emergency fund, three to six months of expenses, then you save up the down payment. And here's the other kicker. Not only do you have the down payment, but you get a 15-year fixed rate mortgage where the payment is no more than a quarter of your after-tax income.

    19. LHLewis Howes1:05:12

        Mm.

    20. GKGeorge Kamel1:05:13

        So that looks a lot like, you know, if you're, you make five grand a month, 1250 should be where that mortgage sits on a 15-year. Now, that's hard to do, I'll admit. In today's world with home prices and interest rates, that's gonna be hard. So what do you have to do? Make different decisions. 'Cause the math didn't change.

    21. LHLewis Howes1:05:29

        Right.

    22. GKGeorge Kamel1:05:29

        So what has to change is your expectations of your first home. That might mean we get the condo instead of the single family. It might mean we're 45 minutes outside of the city because that's the one we can afford. It might mean we gotta save up a bigger down payment for the next two years in order to do this wisely.

    23. LHLewis Howes1:05:45

        Right, right.

    24. GKGeorge Kamel1:05:45

        But the other option is, and we get this on the Ramsey Show, people call us and say, "Hey, my parents pressured us to buy a house, and now it's 65% of our take-home pay and we're broke. Like, we can't afford this-

    25. LHLewis Howes1:05:55

        Wow

    26. GKGeorge Kamel1:05:55

        ... and that, and we can't, you know, put food on the table and cover our bills, and we gotta sell the house now." Well, that turns homeownership from a blessing to a burden. And so there's a right way to do it and a right time to do it.

    27. LHLewis Howes1:06:06

        Mm.

    28. GKGeorge Kamel1:06:06

        But unfortunately, people in their 20s are just like, "Well, it's time for me to buy a home. It's the American dream. Where's my home? I got the degree. I'm still paying off my student loans, but-

    29. LHLewis Howes1:06:14

        Oh, man

    30. GKGeorge Kamel1:06:15

        ... gosh, I need to get, get in a home." And so there's a time and a place for it.
19. 1:06:29 – 1:10:04

    The Cost of Home Ownership

    1. GKGeorge Kamel1:06:29

       credit cards, car loans, it all needs to go before you become a howner, homeowner.

    2. LHLewis Howes1:06:33

       Why?

    3. GKGeorge Kamel1:06:33

       'Cause it just adds, it compounds the stress.

    4. LHLewis Howes1:06:35

       Mm.

    5. GKGeorge Kamel1:06:36

       'Cause you know, homeownership is, it's real expensive. Like, you think it's apples to apples. $2,000 in rent is not $2,000 in mortgage, 'cause the rent is the least you'll pay. The mortgage, that's just the starting point-

    6. LHLewis Howes1:06:47

       Yeah

    7. GKGeorge Kamel1:06:48

       ... before you start dealing with maintenance and repairs, and the HVAC went out, and the roof needs to be replaced four years from now. I mean, those are some big-

    8. LHLewis Howes1:06:56

       Yeah

    9. GKGeorge Kamel1:06:56

       ... ticket items.

    10. LHLewis Howes1:06:57

        And your time to fixing stuff or whatever-

    11. GKGeorge Kamel1:07:00

        Yeah

    12. LHLewis Howes1:07:00

        ... managing things differently, yeah.

    13. GKGeorge Kamel1:07:01

        So sometimes I miss the days of renting when I could just call the apartment complex and be like, "You got a problem to fix over here."

    14. LHLewis Howes1:07:07

        Yeah.

    15. GKGeorge Kamel1:07:07

        And so it really is a blessing while you're renting. I know it stinks 'cause you're like, "I'm not building equity," but it- Uh, m- building that patience muscle is so important.

    16. LHLewis Howes1:07:16

        Mm.

    17. GKGeorge Kamel1:07:16

        And ignoring everyone else's noise of, like, "You gotta get a house, man. If you don't get in now, you'll never get in."

    18. LHLewis Howes1:07:21

        Yeah, I, I lived in a two-bedroom apartment for, I don't know, 15 years, you know, until I was 40.

    19. GKGeorge Kamel1:07:28

        Wow.

    20. LHLewis Howes1:07:28

        I lived in a two-bedroom apartment, and I felt completely fine with that. You know?

    21. GKGeorge Kamel1:07:32

        Yeah.

    22. LHLewis Howes1:07:32

        It was, it was a nice apartment. I had, like, what I needed, and I upgraded, you know, over time into a nicer apartments. But I did not feel like I'm missing out by not having a home. And I didn't have debt also. I liked the flexibility of renting and having the convenience to be able to travel and making sure someone's taking care of my stuff.

    23. GKGeorge Kamel1:07:50

        Yeah.

    24. LHLewis Howes1:07:50

        And, uh, I didn't know what city I was gonna be in.

    25. GKGeorge Kamel1:07:52

        But you're more flexible.

    26. LHLewis Howes1:07:52

        Yeah, exactly.

    27. GKGeorge Kamel1:07:53

        If you're renting, like, if you wanna s- move cities and a different job-

    28. LHLewis Howes1:07:56

        Exactly

    29. GKGeorge Kamel1:07:56

        ... versus, "What do I do now? The house isn't selling and I gotta get to this job," like, you're, you're more planted when you become a homeowner. It's not easy to get out. There could be tax implications if you sell too soon. So it definitely complicates things, but it's overall, it's a great part of your wealth-building journey, and I encourage everyone to do it, but don't feel pressured, and don't do it before you're ready.

    30. LHLewis Howes1:08:16

        Is there such a thing as good debt versus bad debt?
20. 1:10:04 – 1:14:03

    The Pressure of Debt and Financial Fear

    1. LHLewis Howes1:10:04

       he was a real estate guy. He had invested in way too much.

    2. GKGeorge Kamel1:10:07

       Over-leveraged.

    3. LHLewis Howes1:10:08

       Over-leveraged. He had a, just had his first child, and it w- the pressure was too much for him-

    4. GKGeorge Kamel1:10:14

       Oh

    5. LHLewis Howes1:10:14

       ... to take on, how am I gonna pay this off now? It was, like, some, some building that he invested in or something. He was developing, he was investing, and, uh, he had a lot of, I guess, net worth on paper, but then it was over-leveraged and the pressure was too much, and he took his own life about a month or month, two ago, two ago. And it's just like, again, you hear some people saying like, "Yeah, it's cool to have debt," but until you feel like they, everyone's calling you and s- and collecting, and you don't know what to do, and you can't get access to money to pay this off, are you emotionally stable enough to manage that chaos and stress in your life?

    6. GKGeorge Kamel1:10:52

       Yeah.

    7. LHLewis Howes1:10:52

       Do you want that in your life? And I don't know all the details of what actually happened, but I do know that more money doesn't always mean more peace.

    8. GKGeorge Kamel1:11:01

       Yes.

    9. LHLewis Howes1:11:02

       Sometimes more money means more pain if you're not educated or emotionally ready for that amount of money. And do you think that is... Do you think if people got written a million-dollar check today and they were in debt, do you think their lives would be better or more stressful?

    10. GKGeorge Kamel1:11:21

        Mm. Well, I think money magnifies who you are, and if you've never managed a lot of money, it's scary. 'Cause if you haven't managed the little money you've had well, what makes you think you're gonna manage a million dollars well? Just because you have more of it doesn't mean you're gonna make wise decisions, and we see this with the data on lottery winners. It's gone. Like, how did you blow... We got a call the other day, and this guy's like, "I won a, I won a million bucks," and it was gone within a few years.

    11. LHLewis Howes1:11:46

        Really?

    12. GKGeorge Kamel1:11:47

        And he just blew it. Doesn't take much, you know? And so it was really sad 'cause a million bucks in the lottery is really 600,000.

    13. LHLewis Howes1:11:54

        Mm.

    14. GKGeorge Kamel1:11:55

        And you spend 100,000 a year for six years-

    15. LHLewis Howes1:11:57

        Gone

    16. GKGeorge Kamel1:11:57

        ... the money's gone.

    17. LHLewis Howes1:11:58

        Yeah.

    18. GKGeorge Kamel1:11:58

        Not that crazy to do. And so, uh, I mean, you've had our friend Dave Ramsey on this show multiple times, and he shared his story of bankruptcy, and he was over-leveraged in real estate. The bank called the notes, and he couldn't sell off the properties fast enough, and it, it destroyed his life.

    19. LHLewis Howes1:12:12

        Wow.

    20. GKGeorge Kamel1:12:13

        It almost destroyed his marriage. And so, you know, there's a reason debt is, uh, Dave is so risk-averse when it comes to debt, and now he's, has a $600 million real estate portfolio with the Ramsey headquarters and all kinds of properties, and he paid cash for every dang one.

    21. LHLewis Howes1:12:28

        That's incredible.

    22. GKGeorge Kamel1:12:29

        He doesn't have a cent of debt. And so to me, it's inspiring to go, like, you don't have to... There's not this one game you have to play to be a real estate investor. You can do it differently. You can go slow until you can go fast.

    23. LHLewis Howes1:12:40

        Mm.

    24. GKGeorge Kamel1:12:40

        And that's what Dave did. 'Cause when you have all paid-for properties, that thing cash flows like a mother.

    25. LHLewis Howes1:12:45

        Mm.

    26. GKGeorge Kamel1:12:46

        And so all of a sudden, pretty quickly, you have enough cash to deploy and get more property.

    27. LHLewis Howes1:12:50

        Right.

    28. GKGeorge Kamel1:12:51

        And so it's a different game. It's the tortoise versus the hare, but Dave's real peaceful with his property.

    29. LHLewis Howes1:12:56

        [laughs] Right.

    30. GKGeorge Kamel1:12:57

        You know what I mean? Like, no one's ever coming after him to collect.
21. 1:14:03 – 1:17:50

    Grappling with What is Enough

    1. GKGeorge Kamel1:14:03

       and so the only thing I can do is try to prepare without becoming paranoid.

    2. LHLewis Howes1:14:08

       Mm.

    3. GKGeorge Kamel1:14:09

       I don't wanna have to build a bunker and have $500,000 sitting in cash in order to sleep at night.

    4. LHLewis Howes1:14:13

       Wow.

    5. GKGeorge Kamel1:14:14

       And so I'm sort of tr- I'm... That's something I'm grappling with, of what is enough.

    6. LHLewis Howes1:14:19

       Mm.

    7. GKGeorge Kamel1:14:19

       What does that even mean?

    8. LHLewis Howes1:14:20

       What is enough for you?

    9. GKGeorge Kamel1:14:22

       I don't know. I mean, there's, there's, you know... Hey, 20 years from now, if this compound interest works in my 401 [k] and we upgrade this house, I'm such a planner and such a nerd that it's fun to do those calculations. And so to me, it's like, well, we'll upgrade to this type of house five years from now. We'll have a second kid, be a million two house we could pay for in cash. That would be a cool goal. You know, maybe in 25 years, my retirement account, we should have about $4 million. That should be enough to retire on. You have all of those things on paper, but I don't know what life's gonna hold in the meantime. I might have a lot more than that. It might be less. And so the... What I'm grappling with is, are you okay to adapt? And, you know, I've been a guy who wants to plan everything. I wanna be prepared for everything in life, and it's hard to let go of that-

    10. LHLewis Howes1:15:06

        Mm

    11. GKGeorge Kamel1:15:07

        ... and just be present in the moment and not have to think about, what's the next year look like? What are our goals? Like, as someone who's goal-driven, it's so hard to let go and just stare my baby in the eyes and go, like, "This is all that matters right now."

    12. LHLewis Howes1:15:18

        Wow.

    13. GKGeorge Kamel1:15:19

        You know what I mean? That's, that's something I'm truly struggling with, just to be present. My wife is like, "Can you stop looking at your phone? Like, your little girl is trying to get your attention."

    14. LHLewis Howes1:15:28

        Wow.

    15. GKGeorge Kamel1:15:28

        You know what I mean? And so as someone who's addicted to screens, like many of us millennials are, I'm trying to now unlearn and deprogram some of this kind of high anxiety feelings I have. And getting rid of debt was a huge part of that and getting to a good financial spot. I don't have financial stress anymore, but there's still the normal anxiety of, of life and inputs and trying to get more centered and do the quiet time and work out and eat better and all of it is, it's a lot. Uh, and so that's something truly that I think in the next year as a new dad I'm trying to grapple with is-

    16. LHLewis Howes1:16:00

        Mm

    17. GKGeorge Kamel1:16:01

        ... I got new goals now. It's not about me or my, even my wife anymore. It's, we got a little girl to raise in this chaotic world. I wanna, I wanna do her right. You know, my gravestone, it's not gonna have my net worth on it, of like, look at what this guy achieved. Look at how many YouTube subscribers he had. It's gonna, it's gonna be like, beloved father, you know, doting husband. It's gonna say that. And so to me, it changes the way I look at money and changes the generational impact I wanna have.

    18. LHLewis Howes1:16:29

        Mm.

    19. GKGeorge Kamel1:16:29

        And so the goalpost, I'm trying to just stop looking at it, and not look at the 401 [k] balance, and instead look at my little girl in the eyes and goes-

    20. LHLewis Howes1:16:38

        Wow

    21. GKGeorge Kamel1:16:38

        ... "This is all that matters right now."

    22. LHLewis Howes1:16:40

        Wow.

    23. GKGeorge Kamel1:16:40

        That's it.

    24. LHLewis Howes1:16:41

        What's your daughter's name?

    25. GKGeorge Kamel1:16:42

        Mia.

    26. LHLewis Howes1:16:43

        Mia. When she was born, was there something that shifted in you around money and your mission, or was it all kind of just like everything was the same?

    27. GKGeorge Kamel1:16:54

        Mm.

    28. LHLewis Howes1:16:54

        Did something shift inside of you around your views around money when she was born?

    29. GKGeorge Kamel1:16:59

        I think so. One of the first thoughts was, "I can't believe she gets to grow up in a home where money stress and money fights will never be a problem."

    30. LHLewis Howes1:17:09

        Wow.
22. 1:17:50 – 1:21:52

    Raising a Generous Person

    1. GKGeorge Kamel1:17:50

       even know it, because they're just so kind, so hardworking-

    2. LHLewis Howes1:17:54

       Yeah

    3. GKGeorge Kamel1:17:54

       ... not an ounce of entitlement. And so that's what I hope to do for my kid. And when it comes to money, she's gonna go to college debt-free, and that might mean, doesn't mean that we're gonna have unlimited Monopoly dollars to hand to her, but I wanna do my part in saving to help her avoid the chains that I felt-

    4. LHLewis Howes1:18:10

       Mm

    5. GKGeorge Kamel1:18:10

       ... when I graduated college, the cynicism that I had. And so it's a beautiful fresh start when it comes to money to go, like, I get to raise this innocent, pure human to be a generous person, not only with their money, but with their time, their resources. I get to raise them in such a way that they spend wisely-

    6. LHLewis Howes1:18:29

       Mm

    7. GKGeorge Kamel1:18:29

       ... that they learn delayed gratification, they learn how to save for things they want over time.

    8. LHLewis Howes1:18:34

       Mm-hmm.

    9. GKGeorge Kamel1:18:34

       And to me, that is a, it's a huge burden, but it's also a beautiful responsibility.

    10. LHLewis Howes1:18:39

        Wow.

    11. GKGeorge Kamel1:18:39

        So I'm excited to lean into that. You know, she barely can, can look at me in the eyes, but I'm still-

    12. LHLewis Howes1:18:45

        Yeah

    13. GKGeorge Kamel1:18:45

        ... looking forward to those days as we learn those lessons, and she gets her first little Ramsey piggy bank and starts to understand money comes from work, and there's three things you can do with it. You can give, save, and spend. And so, you know, well, I'm not gonna have her doing a budget at three years old, but I think it's, it's a really cool opportunity for any parent to raise their kid in such a way that they go, "I got to be a part of raising a good human."

    14. LHLewis Howes1:19:09

        Mm.

    15. GKGeorge Kamel1:19:10

        And we need more of those in today's world.

    16. LHLewis Howes1:19:12

        Yeah.

    17. GKGeorge Kamel1:19:12

        So if you're on the fence, if you're a good person and you're on the fence about having kids, please have the kids, 'cause there's a lot of stupid people out there having kids, and we have to displace some of that-

    18. LHLewis Howes1:19:19

        [laughs] Sure

    19. GKGeorge Kamel1:19:20

        ... with some amazing humans.

    20. LHLewis Howes1:19:22

        That's cool, George. Um, your book, Breaking Free From Broke: The Ultimate Guide to More Money and Less Stress- People can grab it right now. It's out, so make sure you guys go pick up a copy. Get one for your friends as well. A lot of great content in here to help you get free from the stress, uh, of, of debt and just understanding your money better. So congrats on this.

    21. GKGeorge Kamel1:19:41

        Thank you.

    22. LHLewis Howes1:19:42

        Um, couple final questions for you. This one's called the three truths.

    23. GKGeorge Kamel1:19:45

        Ooh.

    24. LHLewis Howes1:19:45

        So I'm gonna shift it for you a little bit differently.

    25. GKGeorge Kamel1:19:47

        Okay.

    26. LHLewis Howes1:19:48

        I'd like you to imagine that this was your last day on Earth, and for whatever reason, you would have to take all of your content with you. This book wasn't around, your YouTube channel, anything you've ever shared isn't around, and you didn't get to watch your daughter grow up, but you get to leave behind three lessons to her.

    27. GKGeorge Kamel1:20:16

        Ooh.

    28. LHLewis Howes1:20:17

        And this is all she would have to remember you by. It could be a video that she would get to watch as many times for the rest of her life. What would be those three truths or three lessons you would leave to her?

    29. GKGeorge Kamel1:20:28

        Man, that's like dropping an atom bomb here. I feel like I need to film one of those videos that's like in the In Case I Die video, and it's like, "Here's the lessons."

    30. LHLewis Howes1:20:36

        [laughs]
23. 1:21:52 – 1:25:52

    Raising a Confident and Kind Daughter

    1. GKGeorge Kamel1:21:52

       kind to people regardless of what's happening. I think that's a, a really cool thing. And the last thing I would say is not caring about what other people think is a superpower.

    2. LHLewis Howes1:22:03

       Mm-hmm.

    3. GKGeorge Kamel1:22:04

       If she can avoid comparisons, especially in the... Lord knows what kind of world she'll grow up in with social media and the stuff that kids are getting into at, you know, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years old, and how it shapes their, the image of themselves. Like, I want to raise a daughter who is so confident, so kind, and she knows exactly who she is, and no man, no woman is going to change that because she is so confident in her goals, her values, her identity, her family. And that to me is the most powerful thing is if you can have that kind of a mentality of I'm not gonna compare my life to others, I'm doing my own thing-

    4. LHLewis Howes1:22:43

       Mm

    5. GKGeorge Kamel1:22:44

       ... I'm gonna be kind to everyone I meet, and I'm gonna be a hopeful person instead of a cynical person, I think that will bleed into all of the financial principles that I'm out here preaching.

    6. LHLewis Howes1:22:53

       Mm.

    7. GKGeorge Kamel1:22:54

       Delayed gratification's gonna be part of that, you know? Wealth is patience is gonna be part of that. You're gonna be a person of character who's going to build wealth the right way and have the work ethic-

    8. LHLewis Howes1:23:03

       Mm-hmm

    9. GKGeorge Kamel1:23:03

       ... if you believe those things. And I think those are the people who ultimately become wildly successful.

    10. LHLewis Howes1:23:08

        Right.

    11. GKGeorge Kamel1:23:09

        It's not the evil people out there who got on the backs of others. It's the people with integrity and kindness who were optimistic about the future.

    12. LHLewis Howes1:23:16

        Yeah.

    13. GKGeorge Kamel1:23:16

        And we need that more than ever.

    14. LHLewis Howes1:23:18

        I love that. I love that, man. Well, Mia's got a, a great, great future.

    15. GKGeorge Kamel1:23:22

        I hope so.

    16. LHLewis Howes1:23:23

        And, and she'll have you to, to raise her, to teach those things as well.

    17. GKGeorge Kamel1:23:26

        This is her, by the way. Here's a...

    18. LHLewis Howes1:23:27

        Oh man, that's cute. Wow. That's awesome, man.

    19. GKGeorge Kamel1:23:30

        Thank you.

    20. LHLewis Howes1:23:31

        Congrats on that. Uh, Breaking Free From Broke: The Ultimate Guide to More Money and Less Stress. Make sure you guys get your copy from George Kamel. Also, check out your channel on YouTube if you want more great content from George, George Kamel, and Your Name Everywhere on social media. Love this stuff, man. This is really powerful. I wanna acknowledge you, George, for a moment for being an example for a lot of people, a lot of people who started out or maybe right now have, are in debt. They got student loans. Maybe they haven't made the best decisions 'cause they weren't educated or they didn't know any better. You're a great example of what's possible with commitment, with consistency, and with really educating yourself and being disciplined over a period of time, and how you can break free from that. And so it's really cool to see live examples of individuals right now who are young. How old are you again?

    21. GKGeorge Kamel1:24:23

        34.

    22. LHLewis Howes1:24:23

        34, yeah. So it doesn't take 50 until you get debt-free and feel, feel like this sense of financial freedom. It doesn't have to take forever, you know? It's just being disciplined, and you've been consistent with that, so I acknowledge you.

    23. GKGeorge Kamel1:24:35

        Thank you.

    24. LHLewis Howes1:24:35

        Of course. Final question for you, what's your definition of greatness?

    25. GKGeorge Kamel1:24:39

        Ooh. My definition of greatness. How to... Oh, I wanna beat everyone else-

    26. LHLewis Howes1:24:45

        [laughs]

    27. GKGeorge Kamel1:24:45

        ... but I, I don't have a good enough answer. You've had some greats on this, on this show. My definition of greatness, of greatness is a relentless perseverance for excellence.

    28. LHLewis Howes1:24:58

        Mm.

    29. GKGeorge Kamel1:24:58

        I think that's the thing I admire in anyone I meet is they're, they're just not okay with anything less than excellent, and it's not out of a place of perfectionism or I wanna be better than everyone. It's a personal race against themselves and their own creativity and ingenuity and innovation.

    30. LHLewis Howes1:25:18

        Mm-hmm.
24. 1:25:52 – 1:25:53

    Confusion and Uncertainty

    1. GKGeorge Kamel1:25:52

       I use it all the time

Episode duration: 1:25:53