The PSYCHOLOGICAL TRICKS To Instantly Be More Confident & WIN ANY ARGUMENT | Evy Poumpouras

Evy Poumpouras 0:00 When you're communicating with people, again, connection, connection, connection. Why does it matter? And not that you wanna be nice to people. It's not about being nice. It is about negotiating. It's about communicating.

Lewis Howes 0:10 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 0:10 It's about connecting. When you do all these things, you will be-

Lewis Howes 0:14 I think you gotta have a dream

Evy Poumpouras 0:15 The School of Greatness.

Lewis Howes 0:17 Really? [laughs] Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 0:18 Please welcome Lewis Howes.

Lewis Howes 0:20 So I'm curious, for people that feel like they've lost their self-esteem and confidence, what are some things that people could do to really own their confidence again and build it back up?

Evy Poumpouras 0:30 Everything you're saying actually is true, and I've seen it, 'cause I've had so many people reach out to ask about questions. And there's a pattern. We're in a very fear-based place where people are very fear-based, very unsure of themselves-

Lewis Howes 0:43 Uh-huh

Evy Poumpouras 0:43 ... very unsure of their decisions. Even when we're seeing this mass exodus of people leaving work, p- you're seeing people almost re-evaluating themselves, trying to understand their lives. People are not as assertive or certain-

Lewis Howes 0:56 Mm, mm, mm

Evy Poumpouras 0:56 ... about a lot of things.

Lewis Howes 0:56 They're not definitive. They're not clear.

Evy Poumpouras 0:59 They're not... It, it's very fear-based. I, uh, very fear-based. I'm not sure. I'm afraid. Even-

Lewis Howes 1:05 [clears throat]

Evy Poumpouras 1:05 I even see it in the, the classroom. I'm an adjunct lecturer and professor, and I teach criminal justice and criminology. So even in my classroom, I will see my students be afraid to raise their hand when I ask a question.

Lewis Howes 1:18 Just ask, wh- why? 'Cause they're, they don't wanna look silly or something or...?

Evy Poumpouras 1:21 When I... They don't wanna be wrong.

Lewis Howes 1:22 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:23 And we're also in this space where people are afraid to say the wrong thing and be wrong. So it's fear in so many ways. So it's not just the physical fear of the body, right? The illnesses, the COVID, all that stuff, but it's also this fear of, what is the world gonna think of me? How am I going to be labeled? And I will sit in class. I will ask a question. Nobody raises their hand because they don't-

Lewis Howes 1:45 [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:45 They don't wanna be wrong. And then even when I can get them to speak, you can see them speak in very hushed tones, very soft. I can barely hear them. And, and I tell them, "Own your answer."

Lewis Howes 1:57 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:58 "Don't worry about being right. Be wrong. It's a classroom environment."

Lewis Howes 2:02 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 2:03 And so I think it comes from a very fear-based... We're just very afraid in general.

Lewis Howes 2:09 Yeah, it's interesting. I've been doing a lot of research, uh, for a new book I've been writing about really three main things that hold us back in our life, the three main fears that cause us to doubt ourselves, the fear of failure, the fear of success, and the fear of judgment, other people's opinions. And for most of my life, the fear of other people's opinions was the biggest thing that held me back. I was the one who wouldn't raise my hand. I wouldn't speak aloud 'cause I was so afraid of being made fun of or picked on or whatever it might be. How can someone overcome that fear of, you know, a classmate laughing about them or saying, "Oh, that was a dumb question," or just something maybe bigger? They're putting something out on social media and getting attacks or, or, or whatever it might be. How do people overcome that insecurity?

Evy Poumpouras 2:53 Well, I think, do think we've taken a step back actually in in-person communication.

Lewis Howes 2:58 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 2:58 A huge step. Everything now is people are more comfortable in texting and community, communicating through social. And then when it comes to in person, something's completely shifted. You can see people having a harder time communicating in person, and everyone's kinda deviating towards typing, texting, or email.

Lewis Howes 3:17 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 3:17 It's become the comfort space zone.

Lewis Howes 3:18 What's the most, the easiest way to communicate without-

Evy Poumpouras 3:21 Text.

Lewis Howes 3:21 Yeah, exactly. And-

Evy Poumpouras 3:22 Text is the easiest. Email... So here's the thing. In person is the best way to communicate, by the way. Whenever I can speak to somebody in person or sit down and see them, like this-

Lewis Howes 3:32 Uh-huh

Evy Poumpouras 3:32 ... this, this is where you get-

Lewis Howes 3:33 It's the best

Evy Poumpouras 3:33 ... the best. This is where you get magic, right? Then there's Zoom. Okay. Then there's the phone. Phone is another great way. But when you go to email, you still have to write. You can s- but long form sentences. You have to write properly. Texting is just a couple of words.

Lewis Howes 3:49 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 3:50 And that is where everyone's kind of shifted to, gone. It's also the anon-, um, when I text or when I post on social, I'm not as... It's keyboard courage.

Lewis Howes 4:02 Mm-hmm. Yeah. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 4:03 I'm not-

Lewis Howes 4:03 You wouldn't say it to someone's face.

Evy Poumpouras 4:04 You never say it to somebody's face.

Lewis Howes 4:06 I feel like you should only say things online with what you would say to that person to their face.

Evy Poumpouras 4:11 Yes.

Lewis Howes 4:11 Otherwise, what are we doing?

Evy Poumpouras 4:12 Yes. If you can't look at somebody and say it, then you shouldn't write it.

Lewis Howes 4:16 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 4:16 But it's the anonymity, that I can write this stuff, and then I can take out whatever's going on in my life out on somebody else, and I can feel brave in that way. But it's such a false way to be brave.

Lewis Howes 4:32 What does that do to the person communicating in that way, having that false bravery, by saying something strong or powerful or aggressive online, but the unwillingness to do that in person? What does that do to that person?

Evy Poumpouras 4:45 You have to check in with yourself and realize it's, am I being a coward?

Lewis Howes 4:49 Oh.

Evy Poumpouras 4:51 If I can't say something to somebody's face, but I can do it over text, there's something that's missing.

Lewis Howes 4:56 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 4:57 I think bravery is something that we don't speak about, and courage is something we don't speak about. We don't do it in a very overt way, in a very physical way, in a very engaged way. It's talked about as this, like, thing. Oh, be brave.

Lewis Howes 5:12 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 5:13 Be motivated. Well, where, where is that? You have to manifest that with your body. You have to do it, and it's doing it in the day-to-day decisions that you make.

Lewis Howes 5:22 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 5:23 So going back to my class, it's interesting. We talk about criminal justice, right, criminology, and sometimes we'll talk about even being... Uh, for example, I showed them a video of somebody who fell on these New York City train tracks in New York City. And there were all these people on the platform. One person gets down to go help the person. And so I asked them, "Would you do that?"

Lewis Howes 5:44 Mm. What'd they say?

Evy Poumpouras 5:45 The majority of the class, "No. No. Hell no. No. Whoa. I'm not gonna do that." And I hear that, and I think something is lost there amongst us when the answer, at least I feel, through my belief system again Is that the overwhelming answer should be like, "I would wanna help save another human being's life."

Lewis Howes 6:05 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 6:06 "I would wanna help save somebody else." But we've come to this place where it's very much self-preservation, don't say anything wrong, don't do the wrong thing.

Lewis Howes 6:14 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 6:14 Right? A- and attack in a way that's safe and comfortable, or not even attack, but you can disagree... And here's the other amazing thing. I think we don't understand how to disagree. So you can disagree, or you can be competitive. It's something actually that you're taught in interviewing and in, uh, interrogations.

Lewis Howes 6:33 Is this, are you trying to be competitive in interrogation, or just-

Evy Poumpouras 6:36 So y- so when I say competitive, I mean that I can disagree with you in a healthy way.

Lewis Howes 6:42 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 6:42 So you call it competitive dialogue.

Lewis Howes 6:45 How's it look-

Evy Poumpouras 6:46 Which means-

Lewis Howes 6:46 ... if I say, you know, the sky is green today?

Evy Poumpouras 6:49 Okay. Well, tell me why you think the sky is green.

Lewis Howes 6:54 It's just, it just looks green. You know, I just see the color, you know, uh, I don't know, maybe it's a reflection of something, but it's green, it's not blue.

Evy Poumpouras 7:02 Okay. So now what I would do in that moment is ask you why you think of it that way.

Lewis Howes 7:07 Hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 7:07 Why you see it that way, what is your belief system.

Lewis Howes 7:09 So you're not disagreeing with me and saying-

Evy Poumpouras 7:11 No

Lewis Howes 7:11 ... "Oh, you know, you're an idiot, it's blue."

Evy Poumpouras 7:13 Yes.

Lewis Howes 7:13 You're not doing that.

Evy Poumpouras 7:14 No.

Lewis Howes 7:14 You're not getting, like, defensive or aggressive.

Evy Poumpouras 7:16 Because that is your value system.

Lewis Howes 7:18 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 7:19 So I may, for example, I have a very strong belief system, fitness and working out.

Lewis Howes 7:23 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 7:23 It's been part of me. But that's my belief system. It is not somebody else's. If I try to impose it to somebody, so for example, when you hear, hear somebody say, "I have to lose weight, I have to lose weight," their belief system is not really based upon working out and fitness. So I can turn around and be very direct, and that's... Being direct with someone is the way you lose people. So what you wanna do is you wanna always let people talk, even if you don't like what they have to say, even if you don't agree with them. Let them go, let them explain themselves.

Lewis Howes 7:53 What happens when you let someone explain themselves, even when you know they're 100% wrong?

Evy Poumpouras 7:57 You shut up. You shut your mouth. That's like the, that's like I always say that. That's my... The, it, the gift to any great communicator is this.

Lewis Howes 8:07 Yeah. Interesting.

Evy Poumpouras 8:07 Let them go. Don't correct them. Don't tell them that they're wrong. Just let them be in their world. Now, here's the important thing. One, they're gonna say everything they wanna say. You're gonna understand what their mindset is, and two things happen. One, you can speak now, because once somebody's done sharing everything-

Lewis Howes 8:24 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 8:24 ... now they can hear you. But what you do is you're speaking, I cut you off, I insert myself, you get frustrated, "Hey, you're not listening to me. I'm talking, she's dismissing me." And so when I speak, you com- you come back at me, I come back at you, now we have conflict. And so-

Lewis Howes 8:42 Hmm

Evy Poumpouras 8:42 ... for example, when I used to do interviews, I would sit in rooms with people who-

Lewis Howes 8:46 When you mean an interview, you mean an interrogation. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 8:48 Interrogation. I use... You know, it's interesting.

Lewis Howes 8:50 You call them interviews, though.

Evy Poumpouras 8:51 Interviews and interrogations are the same thing. So what you see in TV, in Law & Order, that you did it, you this, you that, that's garbage, it doesn't work. Does not work. Your... The best confessions I've ever gotten, they've been almost like psychology sessions or conversations.

Lewis Howes 9:07 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 9:07 Where people progressively, over a bit of time, give you what we call admissions.

Lewis Howes 9:13 Little more, little more.

Evy Poumpouras 9:14 Yes. So it'll be like, "Yes, I was there at the house." "Oh yes, I was there at the time." "Yes, I saw her," or, "I saw him." "Yes, I left upset." Yes this, yes that, and then incrementally they get to, you get to the confession, "Yes, I did it."

Lewis Howes 9:32 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 9:32 Whatever that is, right? Whereas we go straight, most people go straight for the kill, "Tell me." And it's because of this lack of patience, this thing that we know everything. And, you know, maybe you are right in that moment, but it's not what you think, it's what the other person thinks, understanding how they think, getting into their head, and speaking to them.

Lewis Howes 9:52 Hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 9:52 So now if we bring this back to what you asked me about, being competitive means I can compete with you in ideas without being, it being ugly, without being confrontational-

Lewis Howes 10:03 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 10:03 ... or conflict. But what we've done is we've made conflict, the confrontation-

Lewis Howes 10:08 Right

Evy Poumpouras 10:08 ... this very negative thing. We don't want it. When it happens, people lose their minds. I have so many people reach out, especially when I do consulting, "How do I..." The question's always, "How do I avoid confrontation? How do I avoid conflict?" Why do you spend so much time avoiding it? Why do you spend so much time avoiding speaking what y- what you wanna say, speaking your truth, or sharing your ideas? And why can you not present them in a way-

Lewis Howes 10:37 Hmm

Evy Poumpouras 10:37 ... where there is disagreement, there is competitiveness, I compete, you compete. "No, the sky's green." "Well, I see it this way."

Lewis Howes 10:44 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 10:44 "Oh, I see it blue." "But why do you see it this way?" And you have that dialogue.

Lewis Howes 10:48 But it's not an aggressive competitiveness. It's a, it's an, it's an open dialogue.

Evy Poumpouras 10:52 It's not me being a jerk to show you how smart I am.

Lewis Howes 10:55 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 10:55 And it's not me shutting you down. And it's not me having an attachment to the end result.

Lewis Howes 11:00 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 11:01 Me being right, and me showing you how right I am. Confident people don't care how right they are.

Lewis Howes 11:06 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 11:07 They don't. When you're confident, it's like, I know what I know, I'm good with it. This person sees things a different way. And also, it also comes into where the dialogue where sometimes we think, "Well, I'm saying this, and this is what I mean." You also have to think, "What is this person hearing?"

Lewis Howes 11:22 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 11:23 So just because I think, "Well, I said this," it's like, that's great, but what are they hearing? How do they hear you?

Lewis Howes 11:31 What's the skill, then, for people to... Uh, what happens when people avoid conflict as much as possible, as opposed to leaning into it and being comfortable with the discomfort of conflict?

Evy Poumpouras 11:44 That is very dangerous, and it is very bad.

Lewis Howes 11:46 To avoid it.

Evy Poumpouras 11:47 To avoid it, because... I'm not telling you to go look for it.

Lewis Howes 11:50 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 11:51 Avoid it to certain degrees when it, it's, when it's noise, when it's chatter. Like, people talk to me about politics all the time-

Lewis Howes 11:58 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 11:58 ... because I was former Secret Service. I, I don't participate.

Lewis Howes 12:01 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 12:01 I, to me, it's noise, it's chatter. I don't share. And I never speak about the people that I had access to or protected.

Lewis Howes 12:06 Sure.

Evy Poumpouras 12:07 So, but that, it doesn't matter to me. But-

Lewis Howes 12:08 But a conflict between relationships of friends or family or coworkers or...

Evy Poumpouras 12:12 So, so it depends, if it's important to you, you should address it. What you do is it causes long-term regret.

Lewis Howes 12:20 If you don't r- address it.

Evy Poumpouras 12:21 If you don't address it, it, it causes you to be, to, uh, build up resentment-

Lewis Howes 12:26 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 12:26 ... anger, bitterness, and hate. That's where that comes from.

Lewis Howes 12:29 And they don't, the other person doesn't even know what they did maybe.

Evy Poumpouras 12:32 It, maybe they know, but if you don't check them, 'cause the, from l- time to time in life you have to... I say check, uh, this my Queens coming out.

Lewis Howes 12:39 [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 12:39 But when I say check, address it.

Lewis Howes 12:41 Yeah. Check in with them.

Evy Poumpouras 12:43 Yes. You said this, this is how I see this. And when you, when you debate something with people, use language that's factual. You said this, you said this, you said this, you know, rather than trying to, trying to speak to people, you did this, you said this, you said this. 'Cause you're giving somebody factual, s- something factual, factual, and tangible to look at, rather than, "I feel this way, I feel that way." That's what, what happens is we get lost a little bit.

Lewis Howes 13:12 Mm. So say... So instead of saying, "I feel this," you say, "I heard you say this," or, "You said this."

Evy Poumpouras 13:19 When you said this to me.

Lewis Howes 13:21 When you said this to me.

Evy Poumpouras 13:22 Okay, this is how I took it.

Lewis Howes 13:23 Okay.

Evy Poumpouras 13:24 This is why it's upsetting to me. Okay? I, is i- is this how you see me? Is this true?

Lewis Howes 13:29 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 13:30 It, it, we also have to check in with ourselves sometimes, you know, we provoke people or we, we can be difficult people to deal with. But at the end of-

Lewis Howes 13:38 [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 13:38 Right? We, we always like... And there's this, I don't know if you've noticed this, there's this overall, this theme out there, everybody's a narcissist-

Lewis Howes 13:44 Uh-huh

Evy Poumpouras 13:45 ... and everybody's toxic.

Lewis Howes 13:46 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 13:46 Everybody else.

Lewis Howes 13:47 Yes. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 13:47 Right?

Lewis Howes 13:48 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 13:48 Everybody.

Lewis Howes 13:48 [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 13:49 And we don't realize, one, toxic pe- toxic people hang out with toxic people.

Lewis Howes 13:54 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 13:54 So check in with yourself. So if you're around a lot of toxic people, check in with yourself.

Lewis Howes 13:58 Right. Right.

Evy Poumpouras 13:59 And then you can't label everybody a narcissist. You can't label everybody something just to make it okay for you.

Lewis Howes 14:07 And to put a blame on someone else.

Evy Poumpouras 14:08 Yes.

Lewis Howes 14:08 And you didn't do that and yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 14:10 Right. Because we also have to look at-

Lewis Howes 14:12 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 14:12 ... what we're doing. What are we doing? Who are we engaging with? How much of this stuff do we bring into our lives? It's not, we're not always innocent. Sometimes we are.

Lewis Howes 14:21 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 14:21 Especially, you know, in certain situations with serious trauma or abuse, especially with children. There, there are some situations where that is completely-

Lewis Howes 14:30 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 14:30 ... innocent. But then if you see a pattern in your life, if you see this, you have to find a way where you are not afraid to speak.

Lewis Howes 14:39 Why is it so scary for people to speak about a disagreement or a conflict?

Evy Poumpouras 14:46 One, 'cause the theme is to avoid it. Avoid the stuff, avoid confrontation. Conflict and confrontation have a very negative tone, uh, uh, stigma. And I say, I always tell people, "Embrace confrontation."

Lewis Howes 14:59 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 14:59 When I worked in the White House, you have the cabinet room. President s- sits in one seat, then you have all the, the, the heads of the different departments. The whole goal of the cabinet room was to debate things.

Lewis Howes 15:10 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 15:12 So instead of if somebody says to you or your boss says to you, "You know, I, I didn't like the way this was done. Do it this way next time." And you hear, "He doesn't like me," there's an issue there, because you're making everything too much about yourself.

Lewis Howes 15:26 Yeah. Taking it too personal.

Evy Poumpouras 15:27 You're taking it... Yes. Your, your identity is becoming tied into everything, whereas can you just hear what he said or she said? They're telling you they didn't like the way this was done to be effective, right, and execute quickly to get things done.

Lewis Howes 15:43 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 15:44 They're just telling you, "I don't like it. I want it done this way." And so we've lost that ability, too, to not make everything about us.

Lewis Howes 15:51 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 15:51 We're also in this very me, me, me, me, me, me, me space.

Lewis Howes 15:55 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 15:55 Everything's me, me, me, me. And we don't think about the other person across from us. What are they dealing with? It's my boss. There's a deadline. They're just trying to communicate with me in an efficient way. Um, a- and I think one of the blessings I had from being in the Secret Service, there was no... It was just very direct, "Hey, this wasn't supposed to be done this way. Get it done this way."

Lewis Howes 16:17 Did people take it personally?

Evy Poumpouras 16:19 Zero.

Lewis Howes 16:19 Really?

Evy Poumpouras 16:20 And we were so much more efficient.

Lewis Howes 16:21 Did they train you on how to not take things personally, or was that just a culture and you had to learn quickly, otherwise you would suffer?

Evy Poumpouras 16:28 I think when you go through training itself, they put you in very stressful situations. You begin to understand that this isn't about me, that you're about a collective unit or team.

Lewis Howes 16:38 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 16:38 You are there for the other person. You're there, there's human life on the line. So you really understand-

Lewis Howes 16:43 Right

Evy Poumpouras 16:43 ... the bigger concept and idea. And then you understand, too, what is the goal or the mission.

Lewis Howes 16:48 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 16:48 The goal is to protect the president. The goal is to solve this case.

Lewis Howes 16:52 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 16:52 You understand that there's a goal. You, you are less likely, very less likely to take things, "Oh, you don't like me?"

Lewis Howes 16:59 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 16:59 It's like you have nothing to do with this.

Lewis Howes 17:00 It's so interesting because I used, I would say that I used to have a fragile, um, what would you call it? Personality maybe, or confidence level, you know, in my teens and 20s, right? When someone would give me critique or say I wasn't doing something right, I would take it, so much offense and take it personally. I would resist critique at all costs because I had a fragile identity, right, about self-belief. And then when I hit 30, I'm 39 now, I started going to a lot more emotional intelligence training workshops where they taught me the power of feedback and not to take it personally. And it was so challenging to receive feedback in these workshops, but the more I practice it, I was like, "Okay, actually, I want feedback on how can I improve to be more effective in these areas of my life?" And some things maybe are gonna land for me and support me, and other things, eh, maybe it doesn't resonate with me, but not take any of it personally. Just use it of how can I be more of service to my mission? And, and I think I was so afraid of what people thought about me and how I looked- As opposed to, am I just giving my best towards my mission in life right now? And when you have the mission at a high level of, you know, presidency and protecting people, you're not thinking about yourself or what people think about you. You're just thinking about getting the job done at the highest level, right?

Evy Poumpouras 18:19 Yes. But you're also thinking about, too, executing it to the best of your ability.

Lewis Howes 18:23 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 18:23 I wanna perform my best.

Lewis Howes 18:25 So give me more critique or feedback-

Evy Poumpouras 18:27 Yes

Lewis Howes 18:27 ... right? Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 18:28 I think, I know now I have people w- who work for me as well, and I always tell them, "Don't yes me."

Lewis Howes 18:33 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 18:33 "If you see something different, tell me, and then I'll do the, I'll make the best assessment that I can."

Lewis Howes 18:39 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 18:39 "I don't want you to yes me, because I may see something different."

Lewis Howes 18:43 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 18:43 "I have a different background, a different mindset. Let me know." And but we don't wanna hear that. We wanna be told how great we are. We wanna be... We don't wanna hear that we're, we're making mistakes-

Lewis Howes 18:55 Wrong or, yeah

Evy Poumpouras 18:55 ... or that we're wrong. We take it way too deeply.

Lewis Howes 18:58 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 18:58 And what that does, it doesn't allow us to grow.

Lewis Howes 19:01 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 19:01 It makes it harder for people to work with us. Um, and in fact, a lot of companies reach out in that one of their, one of the issues that they have is communicating to their employees, where they wanna tell them, "We want you to do this task this way," and when they speak to their employees, the employee hears something else. They get very upset. They get sensitive about it. They, they're like, "We don't know how to dialogue with them to make them care about the, the task." It becomes, e- everything becomes about them personally.

Lewis Howes 19:31 Mm. What they're not doing right or something, or how they're-

Evy Poumpouras 19:34 Yes.

Lewis Howes 19:34 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 19:34 How am I perceived? What do people think of me? And at the core, and it's interesting that you said that, it does come from our insecurity.

Lewis Howes 19:42 So how do we overcome these insecurities so we're not offended by everyone that gives us feedback?

Evy Poumpouras 19:47 Well, you have to ask yourself, "Am I an insecure person?" And be honest about it.

Lewis Howes 19:50 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 19:50 And most people don't, don't think of, don't want to think of themselves that way.

Lewis Howes 19:54 Yeah. I ha- I had a lot of false confidence growing up. Like, I thought I... Or I was confident in one area, but not in other areas. So I could be confident in a sports arena, but then in life, I would be more fearful of people's opinions, and it took a, it took a while to learn how to unlearn that and just be okay with, with that.

Evy Poumpouras 20:14 Where do you think that came from?

Lewis Howes 20:16 I mean, I mean, probably a lot of stuff. I mean, I was the youngest of four. Uh, I didn't have a lot of friends growing up, because I was, was in the bottom of my class, and I had, like, special needs classes and tutors all through college even. So I just felt like the thing I was spending the most time in, school, I was the worst at compared to my peers. And so I think just getting picked on and made fun of e- in that arena made me insecure about myself, thinking I'm not good enough, not smart enough, not, whatever, talented enough. And then when I was more of a teenager, I got into sports and became, put all my energy and effort into that and started to excel, which gave me confidence. I got results in an area of life, so I went all in. But when I got injured playing football, um, when I was 23, I lost my identity in that. So it was like my, my confidence was tied to identity of sports. And then if I no longer have that identity, who am I, and where's my confidence come from? So I had to learn later in my 20s how to build confidence within, with my character, which is what something you talked about. It's like learning to trust people not based on, um, really their results or who they are or how famous they are or what they've done or how much money they have, but on how they show up and their way of being consistently. And I had to learn the hard way, you know, by making lots of mistakes, and, and then shifting that through pain. "Okay, now I need to show up in a different way consistently." So I think that's how I learned. But I, a part of me is grateful for the early training and the inner insecurities, but another part of me wishes I never had that also. But it, it allows me to connect with other people and see people and have a lot of empathy as well, so.

Evy Poumpouras 22:02 I think when we are younger, yes, it's, it's a bit more difficult during the teenage-

Lewis Howes 22:06 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 22:06 ... years and early adulthood. I mean, just factually, the human brain doesn't develop fully till you're 25 years old anyway.

Lewis Howes 22:12 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 22:12 So there's all these other issues happening biologically, which is harder to communicate sometimes, uh, with younger people.

Lewis Howes 22:19 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 22:19 In fact, actually, when even when we look at crime, the majority of crime committed is by younger people.

Lewis Howes 22:25 Really?

Evy Poumpouras 22:26 18 to 25.

Lewis Howes 22:27 Wow.

Evy Poumpouras 22:27 Yes. So it goes to show you that there's correlation there with other things. We also see higher rates of impulsivity within that age group. So the younger population typically is the more... You know, I'm sorry to all my younger people out there.

Lewis Howes 22:43 Sure.

Evy Poumpouras 22:43 But y- I was there, too. We- it's, and if you think back, we're, it's where we are the most unstable.

Lewis Howes 22:49 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 22:49 We are the most impulsive, which means we don't really think through things. We don't think of the consequences.

Lewis Howes 22:54 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 22:55 We are much more identity based, me, me, me.

Lewis Howes 22:58 What we wear, who we hang out with-

Evy Poumpouras 23:00 Yes

Lewis Howes 23:00 ... what we're doing. Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 23:00 I'm the sun. Everything revolves around me.

Lewis Howes 23:02 [laughs] Right, right.

Evy Poumpouras 23:03 Right?

Lewis Howes 23:04 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 23:04 And it is, and so that's where we also see, you know, um, this, this impulsive behavior. Impulsivity tends to be one of the characteristics when we see criminal behavior-

Lewis Howes 23:15 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 23:15 ... deviant behavior.

Lewis Howes 23:16 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 23:17 So when you hit that 25 mark, and there's a lot of theories trying to figure it, trying to figure out why that is, but we see even when it comes to just crime and deviant behavior, we see a kind of a, it, it, it peaks, peaks, peaks. We hit 25, and it just starts to fall off the cliff.

Lewis Howes 23:32 Why is that?

Evy Poumpouras 23:33 Some people think it's because of the biology, the development of the brain. You're fully developed now. Other people think-

Lewis Howes 23:39 You have more responsibilities in your life. You got to-

Evy Poumpouras 23:41 You, you have a job. You're responsible. You have, you-

Lewis Howes 23:44 A spouse maybe or a partner

Evy Poumpouras 23:45 ... a partner-

Lewis Howes 23:46 Yeah

Evy Poumpouras 23:46 ... that you answer to.

Lewis Howes 23:47 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 23:47 You have these responsibilities. Sometimes if you look at it just based off of gender, um, male gender, which tends to skew more towards committing crime, they also think hormones, biology plays a role, and testosterone plays a role in that-

Lewis Howes 24:01 Mm

Evy Poumpouras 24:01 ... as well.

Lewis Howes 24:02 Are more men committing crimes than women?

Evy Poumpouras 24:04 When we look at the data, yes. When we look at-

Lewis Howes 24:06 Or getting caught at least, you know. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 24:07 Or who's getting caught. So I'll tell you this.

Lewis Howes 24:09 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 24:09 So yes, women are-

Lewis Howes 24:10 Are women just better at not getting caught?

Evy Poumpouras 24:12 [laughs] Actually, women- So let me answer the first part. Yes, when we look at violent crime, overwhelmingly it's mostly men. However-

Lewis Howes 24:20 Violent crime, yes

Evy Poumpouras 24:21 ... yes, violent crime. Actually, crime overall, to be fair.

Lewis Howes 24:24 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 24:24 But where we're seeing, as w- we have this equality taking place, what's interesting, we're also seeing women commit more crime.

Lewis Howes 24:31 Come on.

Evy Poumpouras 24:32 Yes. Where we, so where we see actually more crime being committed by women is not really in the violent area, violent crime, they're property crimes.

Lewis Howes 24:41 What are they doing?

Evy Poumpouras 24:41 Property crimes, fraud, money-

Lewis Howes 24:43 Come-

Evy Poumpouras 24:43 ... scams

Lewis Howes 24:44 ... really?

Evy Poumpouras 24:44 And I'm trying to think back when I worked investigations, I would arrest, um, quite a few women, and the crimes that I would arrest them for typically was fraud. Stealing money from the government, checks, cashing-

Lewis Howes 24:58 Wow, really?

Evy Poumpouras 24:59 ... fraud schemes, electronic crime fraud, yes. That's where women tend to commit, when we look at the data, the most crime. Violent crime typically still at the moment skews more male, although women are definitely closing the gap. And then when we look at the male population who's represented in a prison more, we do have men. However, to be fair, is it also the mindset that when a woman goes before a judge or the court, and a man goes before the judge and the court, are they gonna look at those two individuals-

Lewis Howes 25:28 The, the bias

Evy Poumpouras 25:29 ... the bias differently?

Lewis Howes 25:30 They do, I've-

Evy Poumpouras 25:31 Yes

Lewis Howes 25:31 ... I'm assuming, right? And you wanna feel like, okay, we have to protect the woman maybe from what could happen in prison. I don't know what-

Evy Poumpouras 25:38 I think it's because we don't perceive-

Lewis Howes 25:41 Could they really do this?

Evy Poumpouras 25:42 ... women as-

Lewis Howes 25:42 Yeah

Evy Poumpouras 25:42 ... gender. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 25:43 Did she really stab this person or shoot them in the face? Yeah. [laughs] Um.

Evy Poumpouras 25:47 She seems so nice.

Lewis Howes 25:48 Yeah. She seems so put together.

Evy Poumpouras 25:49 She brought cookies in.

Lewis Howes 25:50 She's so kind. Yes. Um.

Evy Poumpouras 25:52 Well, we don't perceive, uh, typically, I do think it's shifting, but we typically historically, women, even if you just look at something as simple as who gets away with getting a speeding ticket, men versus women.

Lewis Howes 26:03 Women.

Evy Poumpouras 26:03 Right.

Lewis Howes 26:04 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 26:04 Probably women, yes.

Lewis Howes 26:05 Now, it doesn't, who's harder on women in court, male judges or female judges?

Evy Poumpouras 26:12 So I would think female judges would be harder on women in court. It's something called double marginality, where when you are, and they s- they, they also noted this in, in races as well, when it comes to race.

Lewis Howes 26:24 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 26:24 When you are in that capacity-

Lewis Howes 26:26 You can't let your race or your gender get away with something

Evy Poumpouras 26:28 ... you will try to overcompensate to show-

Lewis Howes 26:31 Ah

Evy Poumpouras 26:31 ... I'm on this side, I'm a judge, I'm not gonna be biased towards somebody-

Lewis Howes 26:35 Right

Evy Poumpouras 26:35 ... because of gender or race 'cause they're my same gender or race, because it would not be perceived as well. So I might even be harder on them, just so that I'm not perceived as being soft on them, which is not fair.

Lewis Howes 26:48 That's tough. I'm curious, you know, this, I've heard that, um, I don't know the statistic, but I've heard that women in relationships cheat just as much as men, but women don't get caught as much. Why is that? And I don't know the statistics, but that's what I've just heard. Why do you think, if that's the case, that women don't get caught as much but still cheat as much?

Evy Poumpouras 27:12 You know, that's interesting. I'd not heard that. I, the one thing I had known is that what we're seeing more is women are more likely to, uh, file for divorce, um, today than a man would. That, that I've heard.

Lewis Howes 27:27 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 27:27 As far as lying and cheating, my experience, I've seen it [laughs] I've seen everybody lie and cheat, uh, regardless of gender. People do it. So I've, in my years and years of interviewing hundreds and hundreds of people, to me I've seen people lie equally and cheat-

Lewis Howes 27:43 Okay

Evy Poumpouras 27:43 ... equally.

Lewis Howes 27:44 Really?

Evy Poumpouras 27:45 I will say that, yes. I've not... I think some, I think certain people may not get caught.

Lewis Howes 27:52 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 27:53 Perhaps 'cause you're not looking at them as much, they're being overlooked.

Lewis Howes 27:56 You're not as intuitive maybe or?

Evy Poumpouras 27:58 You don't see them. Well, look, if maybe they are not thinking they're as, I don't wanna say that they're better liars because it has to do with the person, but if you don't see them as, as a, as a, as much of a threat-

Lewis Howes 28:11 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 28:12 ... you're not gonna suspect them as much. You know, here's a good example. I did undercover work. One of the reasons I felt comfortable doing undercover work, and I would get picked to do undercover work, is because I didn't look like law enforcement.

Lewis Howes 28:26 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 28:27 I didn't look threatening-

Lewis Howes 28:28 Uh-huh

Evy Poumpouras 28:28 ... or menacing or anything like that, so I was more successful.

Lewis Howes 28:32 People trusted you more and, and-

Evy Poumpouras 28:34 I wasn't looked as a threat.

Lewis Howes 28:36 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 28:36 "Oh, her? High five. This is-"

Lewis Howes 28:37 She couldn't be a-

Evy Poumpouras 28:38 Yes

Lewis Howes 28:38 ... she couldn't be a police or Secret Service or-

Evy Poumpouras 28:40 She couldn't be this. Or even when I would do interviews or interrogations, or even today if it's, you know, uh, on TV, on camera, or for the news, when I'm interviewing people, guards tend to be lower versus when you've got somebody else, maybe that's a man that's bigger in size. You're gonna be a bit more, "Oh, I need to..." It's just how we perceive people, but it all goes back to the way we size people up.

Lewis Howes 29:02 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 29:02 And we all do it. We have our perceived ideas of what we think of people. You meet someone, within the first five seconds you've sized them up.

Lewis Howes 29:09 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 29:10 You make your impression of them, what you think of them, and once you make that impression, especially if it's negative, it's very hard to undo.

Lewis Howes 29:18 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 29:19 Very hard to undo.

Lewis Howes 29:20 With, after the first few moments, first few minutes.

Evy Poumpouras 29:22 Yes, yes. And that's good for us to know too because when you're meeting someone-

Lewis Howes 29:26 Mm

Evy Poumpouras 29:26 ... those few moments, when people don't have, when they don't know you, they have nothing to judge you by, they judge you on what they see and how they put you toget- together.

Lewis Howes 29:34 Your energy, what you say.

Evy Poumpouras 29:35 How you speak, your energy-

Lewis Howes 29:37 So-

Evy Poumpouras 29:37 ... your behavior. You say energy, I say behavior.

Lewis Howes 29:39 Behavior. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. We're in LA here, we say more energy, right?

Evy Poumpouras 29:43 But it's-

Lewis Howes 29:43 What it-

Evy Poumpouras 29:43 ... it's, it's behavior

Lewis Howes 29:44 ... it is behavior.

Evy Poumpouras 29:45 Everyone uses energy because they don't know how to define it.

Lewis Howes 29:48 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 29:48 Assess people on behavior. When, th- c- and I'm bringing this up because this comes up a lot, "Evy, I feel this person, I don't know." It's like, no, you do know. It's their behavior.

Lewis Howes 29:58 What are their behaviors? What are they doing?

Evy Poumpouras 30:00 What are they showing you?

Lewis Howes 30:01 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 30:02 Because you'll get this, "I love you, I love you," if we bring it that. It can be f- uh, relationships or friendship. "I love you. I would die without you. The most important person to me." People tell you that, but then when you look at the behavior, what does the behavior show you-

Lewis Howes 30:16 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 30:17 ... when you are to meet them? Are they there? Do they cancel on you? Do they show up on time? Are they present?

Lewis Howes 30:22 I ex-

Evy Poumpouras 30:22 Do they blow you off? So we get confused with, "I hear this, but they show me this." And so some people are very, um, loud in the way they speak or very persuasive, and this is what people hear and follow, and then they're like, "Oh, but the energy of it's off." Is it the energy or is it what they're actually showing you-

Lewis Howes 30:46 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 30:47 ... in their behavior, in their tone, even their paralinguistics, how they sound when they speak.

Lewis Howes 30:54 Wow.

Evy Poumpouras 30:54 'Cause you can even find deception sometimes in, in speech.

Lewis Howes 30:58 In a tone.

Evy Poumpouras 30:59 Yeah. You'll see, you'll see a change in cadence. So if I'm telling you a story, I'm gonna lie to you, which I wouldn't lie to you, Lewis.

Lewis Howes 31:06 I know. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 31:07 But if I were gonna lie to you, right? You're asking me, "Evy, what did you do last night?"

Lewis Howes 31:11 Sure.

Evy Poumpouras 31:11 And initially we're having this great conversation, and then you start asking me, "What did you do last night?" And I don't wanna tell you what I did. Maybe I went out with your girlfriend and we partied it up.

Lewis Howes 31:19 Yeah, yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 31:19 And I wanna cover for her. My cadence could shift.

Lewis Howes 31:23 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 31:23 So I could be speaking normally, and then, "Yeah, we, you know, yesterday was great. I had a wonderful day." "Evy, what'd you do last night?" "Oh, well, then I went to the store, and-"

Lewis Howes 31:33 You have to think about a story now, yeah

Evy Poumpouras 31:34 ... yes. Well, lying, lying is work. It's not easy to lie.

Lewis Howes 31:39 It's hard.

Evy Poumpouras 31:40 It's hard. Lying is work.

Lewis Howes 31:42 And you have to remember what you said of the lie, right?

Evy Poumpouras 31:45 You have to remember, and most people, Lewis, don't like to lie, most.

Lewis Howes 31:49 No.

Evy Poumpouras 31:50 We don't like to lie. We know it's wrong. Nobody wants to be a liar. And so actually the dominant way people lie is through omission. They leave parts out.

Lewis Howes 32:01 Mm. The white lies, or they leave something out, right?

Evy Poumpouras 32:03 No. White lie is, "Evy, how do you like my outfit?" "I li- I think you look f- I, like, think you look amazing."

Lewis Howes 32:08 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 32:08 "I think you should... You look amazing. I love it."

Lewis Howes 32:10 Are you lying to me?

Evy Poumpouras 32:10 "You look good."

Lewis Howes 32:11 You look so lying right now. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 32:11 "Actually, you do look good." [laughs]

Lewis Howes 32:12 [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 32:13 Let's say it was, like, bright fuchsia or something like that, right?

Lewis Howes 32:16 Right, right. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 32:17 And I'm like, "No, no, but you look great, Lewis," right?

Lewis Howes 32:19 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 32:19 That would be a white lie. Lying by omission is-

Lewis Howes 32:22 Leaving something out

Evy Poumpouras 32:23 ... I leave a big crux of it out. So I'll tell you about my day yesterday, but I will leave out that part where I met up with your girlfriend, and we went out, and we hung out, and we partied it up.

Lewis Howes 32:32 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 32:32 I'll leave that part out, or I'll leave out the part that she partied up.

Lewis Howes 32:36 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 32:37 So that's why it's hard for people to spot lies sometimes, because we'll, they'll, people will give us a story, but they leave this crux out, and this is the thing you have to ask yourself, what's missing?

Lewis Howes 32:49 Mm. How do you know when something's missing?

Evy Poumpouras 32:52 Ask questions.

Lewis Howes 32:52 [laughs] Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 32:54 Ask questions. When you see gaps in time, sometimes even in speech you'll hear, "All of a sudden," and, "Then," and, "The next thing I knew," those are, those are typically, um, sound bites of deception. Not always, but sometimes when you hear that-

Lewis Howes 33:09 Mm

Evy Poumpouras 33:09 ... it's somebody skipping time in a story. So somebody's telling you a story, and you get these great details, they're sharing, then you get to a part of the story and there's a gap. And they're like, "Oh, yeah, we went out. It was fine," and then they kind of-

Lewis Howes 33:23 And then we came back, and here's what... Yeah. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 33:25 Yes. You have to say to yourself, "What's missing?" It's almost like when people hire, um, individuals to work for them and they look at their, their resume, and then they look at their application form. Where did you work before? What did you do here? And then there's, like, gap of time, like, from employment. Sometimes you'll see a gap of time. "Oh, well, there's a couple of years here missing. What happened?"

Lewis Howes 33:43 [laughs] What'd you do? "Oh, you know, I was just doing my thing."

Evy Poumpouras 33:44 "Oh, I was traveling across Europe."

Lewis Howes 33:46 [laughs] "But I got fired from three jobs." [laughs] Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 33:50 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 33:50 "I left that out." You don't have to call those people.

Evy Poumpouras 33:52 But people will do that.

Lewis Howes 33:52 Yeah, I know.

Evy Poumpouras 33:53 I did the HR when I was in the services. I did the polygraphs, and I would look at their paperwork, and I would see gaps of time, um, for jobs, or even when people got evicted 'cause they would g- get asked, "Have you ever been thrown out or evicted?" 'Cause you want to see somebody's history.

Lewis Howes 34:07 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 34:07 And so we'd ask them, "Where'd you live?" And they would have to put years of, you know, I don't, I can't remember how many years back, but 10, 15 years back where they've alwa- they've lived.

Lewis Howes 34:16 They lived.

Evy Poumpouras 34:16 And you would see gaps of time. "Well, where'd you live here?" "Oh, just with some friends." "Well, what, why didn't you write it down? We asked you to write it down."

Lewis Howes 34:23 This was for someone trying to be in the Secret Service, right?

Evy Poumpouras 34:26 Yes. I mean, our hiring pro-

Lewis Howes 34:27 So you-

Evy Poumpouras 34:27 The, that hiring process was way more intensive

Lewis Howes 34:29 ... so you put them through the, a lie detector test-

Evy Poumpouras 34:30 But I can, I can help you here. I can help you out here-

Lewis Howes 34:32 Yeah

Evy Poumpouras 34:32 ... for your employees.

Lewis Howes 34:33 Yeah, exactly. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 34:33 I'll do your paperwork. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 34:34 Yeah, exactly.

Evy Poumpouras 34:35 Lewis.

Lewis Howes 34:35 So you put them through a lie detector test and-

Evy Poumpouras 34:38 Yes

Lewis Howes 34:38 ... interrogate them on their whole history.

Evy Poumpouras 34:40 Yes. So it's called, um... When you do a polygraph, and this part I can share, um, 'cause I always wanna be mindful. I don't wanna say anything that's, uh, sensitive or classified. When you take, when you take certain federal jobs, so with US Secret Service, because people can write what they wanna write, how do you verify-

Lewis Howes 34:58 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 34:59 ... what is or isn't truthful? And that's where it becomes tricky. And because of the nature of the job and the risk that comes with the job-

Lewis Howes 35:04 Mm

Evy Poumpouras 35:05 ... and the power that is given to someone, um, you, they do their best to validate that what is in the application is truthful. So there's two things. One, they'll look at national security stuff. Have you violated national security? Are you somebody who's trying to infiltrate? That kind of thing. And then there's another part of it where it's, they call it lifestyle, which is where people struggle the most, and people get-

Lewis Howes 35:31 Right

Evy Poumpouras 35:31 ... disqualified the most. That is your history. So-

Lewis Howes 35:35 So if they, if they've committed a crime, that's, I guess the first part, there's no chance they're gonna make the job, right? Or-

Evy Poumpouras 35:40 Depends on what the crime is.

Lewis Howes 35:41 Really? Like what-

Evy Poumpouras 35:42 Well, it depends on what you did

Lewis Howes 35:43 ... "Well, when I was 14, I did this," and, you know.

Evy Poumpouras 35:46 Correct, or even 18 or 19.

Lewis Howes 35:47 Okay.

Evy Poumpouras 35:47 It depends on what you did, because you have to look at people in general are flawed.

Lewis Howes 35:52 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 35:52 So especially when you're looking at the window of time which you brought up.

Lewis Howes 35:55 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 35:55 You know, I was young, I was this.

Lewis Howes 35:56 Oh, man, lots of mistakes.

Evy Poumpouras 35:58 There's-

Lewis Howes 35:58 Yeah

Evy Poumpouras 35:58 ... yes. And so I think with those, at least I can speak, what they look for more is truthful and honesty. And the thing is-

Lewis Howes 36:05 Mm

Evy Poumpouras 36:05 ... if you're gonna lie about this, then what are you willing to lie about later?

Lewis Howes 36:08 Absolutely.

Evy Poumpouras 36:09 Now, there are of course some things, like if you've got a couple of felonies, you're probably not gonna get, you know-

Lewis Howes 36:14 Mm

Evy Poumpouras 36:15 ... hired because that's, um, it kind of goes against the principles-

Lewis Howes 36:19 Sure

Evy Poumpouras 36:19 ... of what that job function is.

Lewis Howes 36:21 Was there ever any- anyone who had, like, a pretty big crime that, but they were, "Hey, it's been 15 years. I've been, my behavior has been so-

Evy Poumpouras 36:29 Mm

Lewis Howes 36:29 ... in alignment since then. I've done this and this and this," and they're truthful about all their flaws, and they're just like, "Yep, this was me at this point, and here's this." And you're like, "They're so truthful and honest, I now trust them more." And we want them

Evy Poumpouras 36:43 I think by the time they come to you, because the thing was, you know, you, we, I would ask them, "Have you ever committed a crime?" And then I would list the crimes. And so one of the, the signs where I, there was deception, I would... A red flag, let's say a red flag. "Oh, no, you guys ran my rap sheet. I don't have anything." It's like, [laughs] I don't-

Lewis Howes 37:00 Um, but have you done anything that wasn't caught?

Evy Poumpouras 37:02 Right. I didn't ask you what you got caught for, I'm asking you what you did, and we all know what we do or don't do.

Lewis Howes 37:07 Ooh.

Evy Poumpouras 37:07 Typically, the people that were truthful had, would tend to have a very good shot. Where I would see, um, things that were more memorable were when people would lie or cover it up. So I mean, you would get applicants that had, in the course of speaking to them, they would confess to-

Lewis Howes 37:26 Really?

Evy Poumpouras 37:27 Yes. I mean, I had abuse of animals, which was a big thing. Like, uh, I remember I had somebody who used to set animals on fire growing up.

Lewis Howes 37:35 Oh, man.

Evy Poumpouras 37:36 Um, you would have-

Lewis Howes 37:37 Oh, when he was really, when they were really young though or something.

Evy Poumpouras 37:39 No, through the course of their... And that's actually a huge red flag because they would s- as they were young and then they got older, and then they progressed-

Lewis Howes 37:47 And they're still doing it

Evy Poumpouras 37:47 ... from smaller to bigger animals.

Lewis Howes 37:48 [sighs]

Evy Poumpouras 37:49 And so that's, um-

Lewis Howes 37:50 That's tough

Evy Poumpouras 37:50 ... that's actually a bit of a, a, a pr- I don't want to say a prerequisite, but it's something that you'll see in younger people, which kind of leads to, uh, there's a lack of empathy there.

Lewis Howes 38:01 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 38:01 So that's where you kind of go into sociopathic or psychopathic, uh, behavior, personality disorders, and when we see those disorders, you don't see them a lot.

Lewis Howes 38:13 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 38:14 Um, everybody thinks it's prevalent. It's not. It's out there, not as much, but those are individuals who commit acts or harmful acts against someone, but they don't feel bad.

Lewis Howes 38:24 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 38:24 They, they lack empathy.

Lewis Howes 38:26 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 38:26 It's one of the few, there's not a lot of, uh, disorders out there that do that, but there are some, such as those. That's where you have serial killers, or you have serial rapists, where they do this, but they don't feel guilty. Where the majority of the population, when the majo- when they cause you harm, they feel bad.

Lewis Howes 38:44 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 38:45 That's why what's actually interesting, when I would do interviews, or as you like to call them, interrogations-

Lewis Howes 38:51 Uh-huh

Evy Poumpouras 38:51 ... it was easier for me f- with the majority of the population, to get a person who committed a violent crime to confess than it was somebody who stole money to confess.

Lewis Howes 39:05 Because it wasn't harmful? Or what, what, why is that?

Evy Poumpouras 39:08 Less guilt.

Lewis Howes 39:08 Less guilt. Right.

Evy Poumpouras 39:09 So if I do something to harm you-

Lewis Howes 39:11 Right

Evy Poumpouras 39:11 ... it means I'm doing something to harm you.

Lewis Howes 39:14 To physically hurt you.

Evy Poumpouras 39:15 Yes.

Lewis Howes 39:15 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 39:15 Even if I stole money off of you, I have to take it off of you.

Lewis Howes 39:19 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 39:19 I'm doing something to you. But now, if I'm in my pajamas and my bunny slippers at my computer at home-

Lewis Howes 39:25 And I'm-

Evy Poumpouras 39:26 ... sipping my-

Lewis Howes 39:27 Yes

Evy Poumpouras 39:28 ... School of Greatness coffee, and I'm on the computer, and I'm stealing from Chase Bank-

Lewis Howes 39:34 Yeah

Evy Poumpouras 39:34 ... or I'm stealing from some-

Lewis Howes 39:36 Some company

Evy Poumpouras 39:36 ... or even if I'm stealing from a person, I don't know this person, then I don't feel as bad. That is why we're seeing a huge also influx in crime here.

Lewis Howes 39:46 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 39:46 Because now you're branching off to a larger portion of the population. So the reason why you see so much fraud and so much scams, like it's... You, your cell phone, right? Every other minute, it's like, "Hi, you want to buy-"

Lewis Howes 39:58 A rat

Evy Poumpouras 39:58 "... life insurance?" Or, "Hey, this is about to expire." The reason you're seeing that skyrocket is people don't feel as bad about those crimes.

Lewis Howes 40:06 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 40:06 So we have a larger portion of the population committing those crimes.

Lewis Howes 40:11 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 40:11 Whereas violent crimes, the majority of people feel bad. I'm causing harm to you. I'm physically doing something to you.

Lewis Howes 40:18 It's more personal.

Evy Poumpouras 40:19 It's personal.

Lewis Howes 40:20 You see the person, you're with the person.

Evy Poumpouras 40:22 Guilt.

Lewis Howes 40:23 It's not like you don't know the person. Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 40:24 Yes. So this is why we're seeing-

Lewis Howes 40:26 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 40:26 ... this huge, huge blow up here. It's like, well, I'm not really... It's just some name on a screen that I see.

Lewis Howes 40:33 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 40:34 But you also just, you know, wiped out this person's life savings. But you don't see it in that way.

Lewis Howes 40:38 It's so sad, yeah. You, you can't, you're not emotionally connected to it as much.

Evy Poumpouras 40:42 Yes.

Lewis Howes 40:43 I- I'm curious, you talked about how it's really hard, after a first impression, to change your mind about someone. Right? Once you see them, or you meet with them for a second, or you talk to them for 30 seconds, you kind of have made up probably a lot of your bias about that person, right? Based on the way they look, the way they sound, what they say, you know, facial expression, I'm assuming, body language, all these things, right? If that is so important, the first impression, to building influential relationships, what would you say is the thing that we should be thinking about every time we meet someone new, whether it be a stranger or an important meeting?

Evy Poumpouras 41:26 You have to bring all of you. So the majority of what we communicate with people, if we look at the science-

Lewis Howes 41:32 Uh-huh

Evy Poumpouras 41:32 ... and this is sci- truly science-based, is a- almost 70% of what you communicate with people is this, your body. And people don't pay attention to it.

Lewis Howes 41:43 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 41:43 So when they're sitting in a meeting, something as simple as having very poor posture, so slouching the whole time. Sit up. Show them you're there. Taking space.

Lewis Howes 41:53 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 41:53 So if I take space, so if I was doing this interview with you, and I just was kind of sitting like this-

Lewis Howes 41:58 Right

Evy Poumpouras 41:59 ... I'm conveying to everybody out there, "I'm not sure of myself. I'm, I, I don't feel comfortable. I'm insecure." You're gonna, you're gonna make an assessment of me. But when you take up space, when you open yourself up, it shows, "I matter. I'm, I'm here." And this is, people throw that out. People throw the body out.

Lewis Howes 42:18 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 42:19 The other thing is paralinguistics is powerful. So paralinguistic is, linguistics are what you sound like when you speak. My tone.

Lewis Howes 42:28 Your tone.

Evy Poumpouras 42:28 My pitch, my voice. Even, and especially with women, this is one place where women sometimes, it's, we bring in these really high tones, and these very, I, my girly voice.

Lewis Howes 42:38 Like with, with tone-

Evy Poumpouras 42:38 I can bring that in

Lewis Howes 42:39 ... everything's a question also.

Evy Poumpouras 42:40 Yes.

Lewis Howes 42:40 It's like... [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 42:41 Did I go out last night?

Lewis Howes 42:42 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 42:42 Or, you know, did I, did I? You know, I had dinner.

Lewis Howes 42:45 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 42:45 I went with my friends. I'm Evy Poumpouras. That's, that sends a message about who we are and who we aren't

Lewis Howes 42:53 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 42:53 ... that where y- they actually, some of the research says only 7% of, uh, is, only seven, uh, percent accounts to what you actually say. So people will sit and memorize a speech. They will memorize a speech, "I have to get this perfect," but that's only 7% of what people actually hear. It, so it's the two most important things is your body, the tool, are you bringing it? Is it engaging? Are you connecting with people? Do you even eye contact? Like, when you talk to someone, are you really looking at them?

Lewis Howes 43:30 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 43:30 Or do you break eye contact a lot? Most of the time we break eye contact when we talk to people, especially when we wanna remember something. But when you're really trying to bring it in a scenario, in an interview, you're hiring someone or they're hiring you, bring it. Be there. Eye contact also conveys huge amount of trust and a huge amount of confidence.

Lewis Howes 43:52 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 43:52 So one of the things I hear is, "Oh, I'm uncomfortable with eye contact." It's gonna affect you.

Lewis Howes 43:57 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 43:58 Because now when I read you, that's not a confident person. Do I wanna hire this confident person?

Lewis Howes 44:04 Mm-hmm. So if they're looking you in the eyes while they're communicating with you or while you're communicating with them, it shows they're more confident.

Evy Poumpouras 44:12 It conveys strength and trust, confidence in myself. Also, eye contact, again, overwhel- overwhelmingly when we look at the data and research, it conveys trust. That's why everyone's like, "Look at me in the eyes and tell me the truth. Look me in the eyes."

Lewis Howes 44:26 Hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 44:26 I could look at you all day long, Lewis, and lie.

Lewis Howes 44:28 [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 44:28 I'm just as good a liar as you are.

Lewis Howes 44:29 Exactly.

Evy Poumpouras 44:30 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 44:31 It's really hard to look someone straight in the eyes and lie to them, right? You kinda have to look away for a second, right?

Evy Poumpouras 44:37 Some people may. It depends how good they are.

Lewis Howes 44:40 Wow.

Evy Poumpouras 44:41 Some people-

Lewis Howes 44:41 Do they train you how to be a great liar? Like, do you have to learn to be a great liar in Secret Service in order to understand when someone's doing it, to see the slightest tells?

Evy Poumpouras 44:49 No. It, they don't, I was never taught to be a great liar. I was taught how to read behavior, and even still I continue to go to training, you know, to assess human... It's all behavior. What are the people showing you? What are the indicators? But the most important thing is when it comes to reading people, and I know you and I talked about this in depth last time, it's not about one thing somebody does, and I see it a lot where, oh, a liar is anyone who always does this, or anyone who always does that. It is seeing the person's behavior and then pulling out red flags. So for example, if we go, and actually the, one of the best ways to detect deception is through verbal. Words actually give people away a bit more.

Lewis Howes 45:33 How many cues would you say that you're looking for? If there's, like, verbal, body language, the story, their behavior, are there a set of cues that you're like, "Okay, I look for these five things."

Evy Poumpouras 45:45 No.

Lewis Howes 45:45 And if-

Evy Poumpouras 45:46 Nope

Lewis Howes 45:46 ... four of them are off-

Evy Poumpouras 45:47 This is why

Lewis Howes 45:47 ... then it's like-

Evy Poumpouras 45:48 Because you may not do those things

Lewis Howes 45:49 ... uh-huh, or I might just be, like, a nervous person in general.

Evy Poumpouras 45:52 Yes.

Lewis Howes 45:52 And you're like, "Why is this person nervous?" Well, I'm always nervous or something, right?

Evy Poumpouras 45:55 So I'll, okay. When I first came in-

Lewis Howes 45:58 Uh-huh

Evy Poumpouras 45:58 ... you spent 10 minutes, 15 minutes chatting with me.

Lewis Howes 46:00 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 46:00 Why do you do that?

Lewis Howes 46:02 Well, 'cause I like you. You know-

Evy Poumpouras 46:04 Oh, thank you

Lewis Howes 46:04 ... I, I wanna, I wanna see how you're doing, I wanna connect with you, but I, I mean, obviously-

Evy Poumpouras 46:07 But you do that with all your guests

Lewis Howes 46:08 ... yeah, I mean-

Evy Poumpouras 46:09 Yes

Lewis Howes 46:09 ... I did a little more with you, you know?

Evy Poumpouras 46:10 Okay. But why?

Lewis Howes 46:11 No, it's, it's a bit-

Evy Poumpouras 46:12 But why? What is the reasoning why?

Lewis Howes 46:13 It's, well, I don't wanna just jump right into an interview. I wanna build a connection. I wanna see what you're up to. What's, what's really exciting you in your life right now? Is there something off in your life, you know, that we can talk about and go into? And really just build a connection.

Evy Poumpouras 46:27 So when you connect with them, do you not also get their energy?

Lewis Howes 46:31 Yeah, their behavior.

Evy Poumpouras 46:32 Their behavior?

Lewis Howes 46:32 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 46:32 Their energy, their movement-

Lewis Howes 46:34 Absolutely

Evy Poumpouras 46:34 ... how they sit-

Lewis Howes 46:34 Yeah, absolutely

Evy Poumpouras 46:35 ... and all that? Do you ever get somebody that's maybe you read them, your impression is this person's a bit more shy.

Lewis Howes 46:40 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 46:41 I don't wanna have a boring interview.

Lewis Howes 46:42 Uh-huh. Yeah, they're off or they need this.

Evy Poumpouras 46:43 So I need to bring it.

Lewis Howes 46:44 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 46:45 I need to make 'em more comfortable.

Lewis Howes 46:46 Absolutely.

Evy Poumpouras 46:46 Yes. So you-

Lewis Howes 46:48 I always, I always say the pre-show is the show. You know, the show needs to be powerful, but if you don't bring it in the pre-show and build the connection there, it's like you're really interviewing someone in the pre-show-

Evy Poumpouras 47:00 Yes

Lewis Howes 47:00 ... so that the show can inspire and impact the world.

Evy Poumpouras 47:05 Yes.

Lewis Howes 47:05 And if I don't create that in the pre-show, or if we're not creating that, it's gonna be harder to create it when we get started.

Evy Poumpouras 47:11 And what you're trying to do is figure out that person's baseline when you first read them.

Lewis Howes 47:15 Uh-huh. Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 47:15 What's their baseline? Ooh, right now I've got somebody very timid. They're not gonna bring it. This podcast is gonna suck. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 47:21 [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 47:21 I can't have that.

Lewis Howes 47:22 Yeah, yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 47:22 I wanna have people feeling inspired. So you assess people's baseline.

Lewis Howes 47:26 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 47:26 Everyone's different.

Lewis Howes 47:27 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 47:27 So when you assess a baseline is this is who this person is in this moment, now when you start asking them questions, and you're always very courteous to me every time I come on. "Evy, is there anything you don't want me to ask you?"

Lewis Howes 47:37 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 47:37 And every time I say, "Go ahead."

Lewis Howes 47:38 Yeah. [laughs] Yes, many times.

Evy Poumpouras 47:39 "Lay it on me."

Lewis Howes 47:40 [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 47:40 "I have no problem." I mean, but then if you ask me questions, then if I don't like it, you'll see a deviation. So Evy, the, you know, the entire time we were speaking she's been sitting this way, using her hands.

Lewis Howes 47:54 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 47:54 She's expressive, using illustrators. Then if you ask me a question that I don't like, if I pull my-

Lewis Howes 47:59 You lean back. You, yeah

Evy Poumpouras 48:00 ... well, I could just put my hands away. Nothing more than put my hands away.

Lewis Howes 48:04 And I can notice, oh, there's a shift here.

Evy Poumpouras 48:07 Like, wait a minute, right. You're gonna say, "This whole time Evy's speaking with her hands. She's very illustrative, and now she put her hands away." So the, what you're looking at is what did I just do? I asked a question or I said something or did something, and as a result of that, it caused a shift in behavior.

Lewis Howes 48:23 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 48:24 That's a bit of a red flag. Now what you do next is, "Why?" in your head. Why did she do that?

Lewis Howes 48:30 You bank it in your mind.

Evy Poumpouras 48:31 Yes.

Lewis Howes 48:32 You think about it.

Evy Poumpouras 48:32 Now, if you're a good interviewer, and it depends how deep you wanna go, you'll ask me questions about it. You-

Lewis Howes 48:37 About why you shifted

Evy Poumpouras 48:38 ... you won't say to me, "Evy, why did you sift, shift?" You'll continue to ask me questions about that because you-

Lewis Howes 48:44 That topic that-

Evy Poumpouras 48:45 Yes

Lewis Howes 48:45 ... made you feel there was a shift, yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 48:47 There was a shift. Ooh, there's something here.

Lewis Howes 48:49 Oh.

Evy Poumpouras 48:49 Ooh, I wanna know. Oh, what is she hiding? Oh, what is, what is the story there that I wanna know about? So that can do that. For other people, I could just be sitting here the whole time.

Lewis Howes 48:58 [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 48:59 You ask me a question. I could do something as simple as put my hand over my mouth right before I answer you. Again, everybody doesn't do it, but you could say, "Why did she just put her hand over her mouth?" Uh, it... But the thing is, what did I do, what did I say that caused her to do that? The, the goal is for you to be, to be not afraid to ask questions. The majority of the population, very fear-based. We don't like confrontation. We don't wanna push through or ask.

Lewis Howes 49:27 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 49:27 And we let things go, instead of being curious. I- you're curious about people.

Lewis Howes 49:33 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 49:33 You're fascinated by people. I am, too. I listen to people. I love to hear their story. And when you talk to them, they will tell you what they wanna tell you, and they'll leave some stuff out. But... And you can... Can't you tell sometimes the parts that they leave out-

Lewis Howes 49:49 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 49:49 ... of themselves?

Lewis Howes 49:50 Yeah

Evy Poumpouras 49:50 ... that they just don't wanna share?

Lewis Howes 49:51 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 49:53 There's, like, something missing there.

Lewis Howes 49:54 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 49:55 The energy shifts, the behavior shifts.

Lewis Howes 49:57 [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 49:57 It's, it's behavior. I think people say energy because they just don't know how to define it.

Lewis Howes 50:01 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 50:02 So study a person's baseline, and you can do it within seconds, too.

Lewis Howes 50:06 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 50:06 So when you're connecting with people, what you also probably don't realize that what you're doing is intuitively, Lewis, you're reading people.

Lewis Howes 50:13 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 50:13 You're getting the picture.

Lewis Howes 50:15 Absolutely.

Evy Poumpouras 50:15 You're getting a sense of who they are.

Lewis Howes 50:17 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 50:18 Right? You even said to me, actually, today. You said, "Evy, you seem more relaxed on this one."

Lewis Howes 50:21 Yeah. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 50:22 Last time you came in, I thought you were gonna pile drive me.

Lewis Howes 50:24 Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 50:26 Right?

Lewis Howes 50:26 Um, yeah, it's interesting, and I, and I always know that, and I guess it depends on if you're meeting someone for the first time versus we've met each other before, so the energy can, or the behavior can be shifted, I guess. But I always try to, and I think I did this with you, when someone walks through the door, I try to open my arms. I think right away I was just like, "Hey." You know, I open my arms.

Evy Poumpouras 50:47 I know, I know.

Lewis Howes 50:47 Yeah. [laughs] I try to open my arms, and it... and really just kind of be, you know, a s- a joyful person, whether it's someone I know or someone I'm just meeting, because I want people to feel, people to feel like this is a safe space, and this is a joyful place, and I'm a safe human being. You know, I'm not gonna hurt anyone here.

Evy Poumpouras 51:07 So let me ask you a question.

Lewis Howes 51:07 And I also know I'm much bigger than a lot of people.

Evy Poumpouras 51:09 Did anybody teach you that, or is that something you normally do on your own?

Lewis Howes 51:13 I've just done it for years. I can't think if someone taught me. I don't remember, but I've just always kind of been this... 'Cause I think when I started doing it, probably in my teens or early 20s, I was like, "Oh, people are much more receptive to this." You know, there's probably a reward for that behavior based on what I was doing. So like, oh, let me just always be this way, you know? [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 51:33 So actually, there's a term for that. It's called an open posture, welcoming posture.

Lewis Howes 51:37 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 51:37 So it's, it's a wild, because you do it intuitively.

Lewis Howes 51:40 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 51:41 So this is when you want people to not feel intimidated, you want people to connect with you, what you wanna do is exactly what you did. So, and supervisors, anybody out there, listen up. If this is, you wanna connect with people, or people are intimidated by you, open posture.

Lewis Howes 51:56 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 51:56 So I'm open. My hands are out. My hands are open-

Lewis Howes 51:59 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 51:59 ... too. Nothing's in my hands, so it's... And you said, "I'm safe."

Lewis Howes 52:04 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 52:04 I'm not hiding anything. I don't have anything. My hands aren't in my pockets.

Lewis Howes 52:07 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 52:07 I don't have anything in my hands. I'm open. I'm safe. And so it's, I'm welcoming you.

Lewis Howes 52:13 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 52:14 So that's actually something [laughs] that's one of the first things they teach you in the foundation when it, it came to negotiation in interviewing school. Have an open posture when you speak to people. This is the open posture. Exactly what you do with everybody you meet.

Lewis Howes 52:26 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 52:26 And it's smart that you do that because it's disarming. They feel relaxed. They feel welcome. They feel open. They connect with you, and you're gonna have a better interview.

Lewis Howes 52:35 Right. Intuitively. I mean, or just, like, unconsciously the person's gonna feel safe, whether they're even aware that I'm doing that or not, right? I even try to be conscious. I move my hands a lot on the table, and, you know, I, I, I cover my chin when I'm thinking. But I always try to go back to having my hands open here, even just in a relaxed position. I don't know if you notice that, or I'll bring it to the side here so you can see them, or kind of have them here in a, like, a open clasp, uh, position as much as possible, 'cause I want people to feel, "Hey, I'm, I'm here. You know, I'm open." But I... And then I'll grab my pen, or I'll do something, but it's always tries to go back to a relaxed position.

Evy Poumpouras 53:13 So the hands, again, is the same thing. You keep your hands, and I don't wanna say it's... It's not always a sign of deception.

Lewis Howes 53:19 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 53:19 But one of the things they did-

Lewis Howes 53:20 If you put it underneath, it's like-

Evy Poumpouras 53:21 ... teach you is just when you're talking to people and you see the hands disappear, so you see somebody's hands, they sit on their hands, um, or their hands are under the table, never great signs. It doesn't mean, again, it's just a red flag. What... If, so if I have my hands up here, you ask me a question that I don't like, and my hands go down here, you should take note. Why did Evy do that? What did I just do that caused her to do that? But the fact that you keep your hands out, and this is important, when you're communicating with people, again, connection, connection, connection. Why does it matter? And not that you wanna be nice to people. It's not about being nice. It is about negotiating. It's about communicating.

Lewis Howes 53:59 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 53:59 It's about connecting. When you do all these things, you will be more successful. People will wanna work with you. They will wanna date you.

Lewis Howes 54:07 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 54:07 They will wanna be around you. They will want-

Lewis Howes 54:08 Right

Evy Poumpouras 54:09 ... to, they will wanna be in your vicinity. This makes your life so much better because everyone sits, and they memorize strategies and tactics and techniques. You are dealing with people at the end of the day. You master people, you will master everything.

Lewis Howes 54:23 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 54:24 And it's so important, but we, we throw it away. We throw it away, and something as small as what you're doing, welcoming people, open hands, the hands out, being open, connecting. I'm showing you my hands. I'm here. Evy, I'm looking at you. Slam dunks all the way.

Lewis Howes 54:39 Slam dunks. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 54:39 Or touch, touchdowns. Excuse me.

Lewis Howes 54:41 There you go.

Evy Poumpouras 54:41 You play football.

Lewis Howes 54:41 Both. Yeah, yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 54:42 Touchdowns all the way, Lewis.

Lewis Howes 54:43 Exactly.

Evy Poumpouras 54:44 Yes.

Lewis Howes 54:44 Now, how does someone, when they're hearing you say this, and say they want to master their relationships in dating or in business or their career, how do they... What are some of the key strategies to mastering them in business and relationships without ... people feeling like they're manipulating or creating a toxic environment with those individuals?

Evy Poumpouras 55:08 So here's the thing, right? So you're saying manipulation, trick.

Lewis Howes 55:10 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 55:10 Am I tricking people, right?

Lewis Howes 55:14 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 55:14 I hear this a lot. I'm gonna give you an example or analogy. If I wor- if you work out every day, right?

Lewis Howes 55:20 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 55:20 Let's say you work out every day, you're getting top... You- you're- you're muscular, you're strong, you're all that, right? Could you use that to help people, to help save people, keep people safe?

Lewis Howes 55:30 Absolutely.

Evy Poumpouras 55:31 Could you also use that to harm people?

Lewis Howes 55:32 Mm-hmm. Right.

Evy Poumpouras 55:34 So this is the same thing. So all the stuff that we talk about, could somebody use it to harm someone? Yes. It- it's like, it's like anything. You could take something that's meant to be positive and twist it. But I'll tell you this: when you come from a genuine place, people feel it.

Lewis Howes 55:52 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 55:53 They feel it. When you are doing it with the goal to manipulate people, people feel that too.

Lewis Howes 56:01 What are you, what do you think are the subtle cues that people could tell if someone's trying to be more manipulative or more from a place of power, control, competition, rather than a genuineness? W- it's where it's, like, subtle. It's not as clear.

Evy Poumpouras 56:16 I think one is if somebody's very over the top. Um, when I have somebody say, "Evy, you can trust me," or this. Like, we, we were talking entertainment business before you and I.

Lewis Howes 56:27 [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 56:27 When I hear, when I hear certain things, when people try very hard to oversell...

Lewis Howes 56:31 This is a guarantee. This is gonna happen no matter what. This is easy. You know, all these things.

Evy Poumpouras 56:36 Yeah, those are always red flags. I'm always thinking, "Why is this person trying so hard to sell me?"

Lewis Howes 56:41 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 56:41 I feel that I'm being sold. Versus, "Look, I'm gonna work with you. I'll do everything I can." You can connect with people, and there's, there's a genuine part that comes through. But again, but it's also does the behavior match what they say? So if somebody's saying, "I'm gonna do this, you're so important to me. You're my most important client. You're my this, you're my that," but then they don't call back, they don't answer their cell phone, or when you do call, "Hey, I've got two minutes, I'm super busy."

Lewis Howes 57:07 Ah.

Evy Poumpouras 57:07 They don't deliver. When they don't do those things, that tells you what? So that it's not in harmony.

Lewis Howes 57:15 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 57:15 I'll bring another example.

Lewis Howes 57:16 They're not in alignment of what they're saying and how their behaviors are acting.

Evy Poumpouras 57:20 Yes. One of the things with you, and this is completely genuine, when one of the things that I appreciate about you, where I saw that who you are and what you say is in harmony with what you do is, and I brought this up to you earlier-

Lewis Howes 57:33 Yeah

Evy Poumpouras 57:33 ... when we were doing our hello. When I did my first interview with you-

Lewis Howes 57:37 Uh-huh

Evy Poumpouras 57:37 ... at the top of the description box, the first line was about subscribe to my show and all that, and the second line was, "Hey, guys, Evy's book," blah, blah, blah, blah.

Lewis Howes 57:47 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 57:48 And I said, "Look, he put that up top." You, your behavior, what you said and what you showed me as a... What you were verbally telling me matched up-

Lewis Howes 57:56 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 57:57 ... with what you showed me.

Lewis Howes 57:58 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 57:59 That's what you wanna look at. Because you'd be like, "Evy, you're great. You're this, you're that." And then if it's, like, not there, or if it's, like, all the way at the bottom, or it's all about Lewis, Lewis, Lewis, Lewis, and my guest doesn't matter-

Lewis Howes 58:09 Right

Evy Poumpouras 58:09 ... then it doesn't matter.

Lewis Howes 58:10 Sure.

Evy Poumpouras 58:10 You can tell me I matter all day long, but people miss that.

Lewis Howes 58:16 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 58:16 Don't just listen to, I don't wanna say the garbage people say, but just don't... Look at what they do.

Lewis Howes 58:24 It's like trusting to an extent. "Okay, you're selling me you're gonna do something. I trust you, and let's see if the behaviors continue to match the words."

Evy Poumpouras 58:31 I'll even better you this.

Lewis Howes 58:32 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 58:32 You don't wanna give unconditional trust. There's certain levels of trust.

Lewis Howes 58:35 Ah.

Evy Poumpouras 58:36 You give conditional trust.

Lewis Howes 58:38 What's the difference?

Evy Poumpouras 58:39 Conditional trust is I give you a little bit here, a little bit here, a little bit here, and I test you. Not I test you, but I watch and I wait. But what we do is, "Oh my God, I love Lewis. He's great," which you are, right? "I'm gonna give him all my trust. I'm gonna tell him everything." And then I get confused as to why do I feel betrayed later? Why do I this? Because you just gave it away like it's nothing.

Lewis Howes 59:02 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 59:02 It's like you just took all the money out of your wallet and you just did this.

Lewis Howes 59:05 Right. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 59:06 [laughs] When you go to the store, what do you do? You ask, "How much is that? Let me give you exactly what it costs."

Lewis Howes 59:12 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 59:12 So you should be that way with your trust.

Lewis Howes 59:14 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 59:14 You shouldn't be, like, just giving it out to people. It's conditional.

Lewis Howes 59:19 Let me a quest- let me ask you a question about, uh, being vulnerable with people, being honest, open, and vulnerable with people, whether in your first few interactions with them or you've known them for a while. Should we be thinking about ourselves and say- and saying, "I, I trust myself enough where I can be vulnerable and open with people no matter how they receive it"? Or should we hold back who we are or some things about us to protect ourselves or to feel if they're trustworthy enough to have that information?

Evy Poumpouras 59:53 Yes to the latter.

Lewis Howes 59:54 Really? Interesting.

Evy Poumpouras 59:55 I hear this vulnerable, vulnerable. I mean, nobody... One, like, nobody wants to see it all day long.

Lewis Howes 1:00:01 Right. Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:00:02 Everybody's got their own problems-

Lewis Howes 1:00:03 Absolutely

Evy Poumpouras 1:00:03 ... and their own little stuff they're dealing with. I will tell you this, though. When people feel too comfortable with you, they will challenge you more.

Lewis Howes 1:00:12 In what ways?

Evy Poumpouras 1:00:13 They will test you more. They will push back more the more comfortable people feel with you. Think of it. The people that know you the best in life-

Lewis Howes 1:00:19 Uh-huh

Evy Poumpouras 1:00:20 ... they push you back. They push back the most. They'll call you out the most, and sometimes not, not, not in a healthy way, in an unpleasant way. But if you're... There's something powerful with keeping some things about you to you.

Lewis Howes 1:00:31 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:00:31 You don't have to be an, an open book.

Lewis Howes 1:00:33 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:00:33 And I know this goes against a lot- the, you know, a lot of, "Be vulnerable. Be vulnerable." I'm not telling you to be a jerk, and I'm not telling you to conceal everything about you. But what I'm telling you is you need to have a filter.

Lewis Howes 1:00:45 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:00:46 Nobody needs to know... People don't need to know-

Lewis Howes 1:00:48 Every detail

Evy Poumpouras 1:00:48 ... everything about you.

Lewis Howes 1:00:49 Yeah, yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:00:49 Keep that stuff to yourself.

Lewis Howes 1:00:51 When you were doing your interviews or interrogations, would you ever or did you ever become too vulnerable as a, I guess, strategy to try to get the other person to open up and share their vulnerabilities and kind of reveal that they did the thing they did?

Evy Poumpouras 1:01:10 I think what I just did is I empathized the most

Lewis Howes 1:01:12 Okay

Evy Poumpouras 1:01:13 Because in truth, can I-

Lewis Howes 1:01:15 I can see how you feel about this. I had an experience. You know, I had a feeling or-

Evy Poumpouras 1:01:18 Well, if it's a criminal investigation, hopefully not

Lewis Howes 1:01:20 [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:01:21 "Oh, you killed her? Oh, well I can see why you..." [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:01:23 [laughs] Why I felt this in my life or whatever it may be.

Evy Poumpouras 1:01:26 No, no, because that would be disingenuous.

Lewis Howes 1:01:28 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:01:29 So I'll give you an example. Um, there's a difference between tr- pretending I understand and understanding. Empathy is I've, I've been there with you. So when you, when I came in, I said, "Lewis, you know, I'm really sorry about your dad," right?

Lewis Howes 1:01:45 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 1:01:45 So I've also lost my dad.

Lewis Howes 1:01:46 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:01:47 So if I, if I said to you, "Lewis, I'm sorry about your dad, I understand how that feels," can I say that to you? Do I understand?

Lewis Howes 1:01:54 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:01:55 If, because my, I lost my dad.

Lewis Howes 1:01:56 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 1:01:57 You would say, "She lost her father, too, so she understands." Now, if I never lost my father-

Lewis Howes 1:02:02 You can't say that

Evy Poumpouras 1:02:03 ... and I said that to you, you'd kind of be like, "You don't really know."

Lewis Howes 1:02:07 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:02:07 You still have your dad.

Lewis Howes 1:02:08 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:02:09 So when you empathize with someone in a scenario where, let's say, you had just lost your dad and I didn't, I would try to empathize, "That must be very difficult. I'm sorry to hear that." Now-

Lewis Howes 1:02:20 But not relating it to yourself

Evy Poumpouras 1:02:21 ... not relating to myself. So the only way you can relate it to yourself and it be genuine is if you experienced the exact same thing the other person did. So in this scenario, yes, you lost your dad, I lost my dad.

Lewis Howes 1:02:35 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 1:02:35 So then you would feel genuine. So it would be the same thing when you speak to people. You-

Lewis Howes 1:02:40 Right

Evy Poumpouras 1:02:40 ... so it's- it's how you, how you say it. So if you, if you've not experienced the exact same thing, the best thing to do is say, "I'm sorry to hear that. That must be so difficult. I can't imagine."

Lewis Howes 1:02:51 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:02:51 "I'm here for you if you need anything." You would do something along those lines instead of saying, "I know how you feel." And trying to then, and this is what you don't want to do, 'cause when you first told me, actually, I didn't say to you I lost my dad.

Lewis Howes 1:03:04 Mm-hmm. No, you didn't. Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:03:05 Because I would take away from what I was sharing with you.

Lewis Howes 1:03:07 Sure, sure.

Evy Poumpouras 1:03:08 I made it now about me.

Lewis Howes 1:03:09 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 1:03:09 "Oh, you lost your dad? Let me tell you about my dad. And my dad died, too. He d- he died of cancer," and all this stuff.

Lewis Howes 1:03:14 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:03:14 And I would go into that story. It takes away. So it's your story, your narrative, and I'm gonna let you just talk to me about it.

Lewis Howes 1:03:21 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:03:22 And then if later mine comes up, fine.

Lewis Howes 1:03:24 Sure, sure.

Evy Poumpouras 1:03:25 So you don't wanna make it about you. This is that me, me, me, me syndrome.

Lewis Howes 1:03:29 Me.

Evy Poumpouras 1:03:29 When people are speaking to you, allow them to own their story. Don't feel that you have to be, "Oh yeah, I do the same thing. Oh yeah, this." They don't... One, they don't typically care.

Lewis Howes 1:03:39 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:03:40 Unless you've been through the exact same th- thing, and you feel that by bringing that up, that person needs that, fine.

Lewis Howes 1:03:47 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 1:03:47 But don't do it-

Lewis Howes 1:03:48 You don't even need to, yeah. Probably not

Evy Poumpouras 1:03:49 ... if you don't need to, don't bring it in. Don't f- don't bring in the noise.

Lewis Howes 1:03:52 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:03:53 Let that person's story be their story.

Lewis Howes 1:03:55 Sure.

Evy Poumpouras 1:03:55 'Cause what you're doing is you're bringing in your own stuff, and-

Lewis Howes 1:03:57 Right. Give them that moment, yeah

Evy Poumpouras 1:03:59 ... let them have that moment.

Lewis Howes 1:04:01 I wanna go back to something you, you mentioned briefly that I thought would be interesting for people. When you're asking someo- when you wanna get information out of someone, boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever, interrogating a, a criminal, whatever it might be, is it more-

Evy Poumpouras 1:04:17 Employee

Lewis Howes 1:04:17 ... an employee, yes. Is it more effective to ask direct question, "Did you do this?" Or, "You did this?"

Evy Poumpouras 1:04:24 No.

Lewis Howes 1:04:24 Or is it better to appen- ask an open-ended question and see what happens next?

Evy Poumpouras 1:04:29 So direct questions are not good, and this is why. Most people do this, they go in for the kill, so to speak-

Lewis Howes 1:04:34 [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:04:34 ... and they get garbage. You get nothing.

Lewis Howes 1:04:37 What do people say?

Evy Poumpouras 1:04:38 B- they shut you down.

Lewis Howes 1:04:39 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:04:39 Nobody... And especially if it's a sensitive topic, they're not gonna wanna tell you. It's like, "Did you do it?" "Yeah, hey, I did. Let me tell you. Sit down."

Lewis Howes 1:04:46 [laughs] Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:04:47 You wanna let people, uh, adjust. It's almost like you put their feet in the water in the pool.

Lewis Howes 1:04:52 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:04:52 You, you, your feet, when you go into the ocean, you acclimate to the water. Some people dive in, yes.

Lewis Howes 1:04:58 Sometimes I jump in 'cause it's-

Evy Poumpouras 1:04:59 Yeah. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:05:00 ... it's too cold to just tiptoe in. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:05:02 But for the most part, the idea is you acclimate.

Lewis Howes 1:05:04 Yeah, of course.

Evy Poumpouras 1:05:04 And then by the time you get in, you're, you're the same temperature. When you speak to people, then that's the way to do it.

Lewis Howes 1:05:10 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:05:10 And you don't have to get the information in that moment. You wanna work on people over time.

Lewis Howes 1:05:15 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:05:15 So you wanna get admissions, which is pieces of information, if we make it about a crime, per se, right? Rather than going, "Well, did you do this? Did you do this to this person? Did you, uh, h- rape this person, kill this person?"

Lewis Howes 1:05:29 Steal this thing.

Evy Poumpouras 1:05:30 "Steal, steal this thing." And, and I would never say steal. Sounds ugly.

Lewis Howes 1:05:34 Did you take this? Or did-

Evy Poumpouras 1:05:34 Did you take this? Rape sounds ugly, too. I would never say rape or, or, or kill, kill. I would say, "Did you, did you hurt this person?"

Lewis Howes 1:05:41 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:05:41 "Did you, you know, lose yourself?" I would use different terms.

Lewis Howes 1:05:45 Interesting.

Evy Poumpouras 1:05:45 Sounds nicer. Even if somebody lies, "Hey, man, you're lying to me." Ooh, eh, Lewis is like, "What? I... No."

Lewis Howes 1:05:52 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 1:05:52 "Lewis, you're not, there's something you're missing. There's something you didn't tell me. I feel there's a part of the story I'm missing here. I want you to be comfortable enough to tell me."

Lewis Howes 1:06:00 So you would say that?

Evy Poumpouras 1:06:01 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:06:01 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:06:01 Sounds different.

Lewis Howes 1:06:02 Interesting.

Evy Poumpouras 1:06:03 So that's one. Think about the words coming out of your mouth, "What do I sound like?" And then more importantly, "What do they hear when I speak?" Not do what, not what do I think I'm saying, 'cause everyone's like, "Oh, I just said this. What did I say?" Doesn't matter what you think you said. What matters is what they hear-

Lewis Howes 1:06:21 Right

Evy Poumpouras 1:06:21 ... when you speak based off of their viewpoint, their biases, their DNA, their genetic makeup, their, their drama, their trauma, all their stuff, 'cause they bring that in when they communicate.

Lewis Howes 1:06:33 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:06:34 So you have to keep that in mind.

Lewis Howes 1:06:36 Are you also thinking about, are you trying to learn about the background of the person before you have a connection or a conversation with them, and get as much information on them before?

Evy Poumpouras 1:06:46 De-

Lewis Howes 1:06:46 Where they're from, who they are, you know.

Evy Poumpouras 1:06:48 Depends what you want.

Lewis Howes 1:06:49 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:06:50 What is your goal? Like, what are you looking to get?

Lewis Howes 1:06:52 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:06:52 And obviously, sometimes time's a factor. If you're hiring somebody, I think when you do... Here are some tips. When you're doing your job interviews or you're, you're bringing people on, or you're working with people, you wanna sit them down. You don't wanna sit like the way we are here with a table between you and the person. You want an open space, so you've got, like, two sof-

Lewis Howes 1:07:10 Ah, just two chairs open

Evy Poumpouras 1:07:10 ... put them on the sofas.

Lewis Howes 1:07:12 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:07:12 Sit down. That's openness. This is, um, a barrier.

Lewis Howes 1:07:15 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 1:07:16 It's just, it causes a break between us. There's also formality with the table And I feel like I'm being interviewed

Lewis Howes 1:07:21 It's more professional then as opposed to relaxed

Evy Poumpouras 1:07:23 Yes. And the thing is this, if you wanna know who you're hiring, let's say, or who you're dealing with, or who you're bringing into your space, you want openness and you want them to speak to you in an open way.

Lewis Howes 1:07:34 Freely

Evy Poumpouras 1:07:35 So you can get all the information. Tell me about yourself. How did you grow up? You know, where are you from? No kidding. What's about this? What, what about that? Now you get them and then you flow into the other questions. But if people feel like they're being interviewed, that they're gonna bring that.

Lewis Howes 1:07:49 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:07:49 Bring that. So you wanna get people to feel comfortable-

Lewis Howes 1:07:52 Right

Evy Poumpouras 1:07:52 ... and you wanna have that openness. Also, when you have a table, it cuts off the lower body.

Lewis Howes 1:07:57 You can't see their-

Evy Poumpouras 1:07:58 So some-

Lewis Howes 1:07:58 ... triggers, yeah, yeah

Evy Poumpouras 1:07:59 ... there, there's, there's tells.

Lewis Howes 1:08:00 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 1:08:01 There's tells. I could be-

Lewis Howes 1:08:01 If they're crossing their legs, they're fidgety, they're-

Evy Poumpouras 1:08:03 They're fidgety. Maybe you ask me a question about-

Lewis Howes 1:08:05 [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:08:06 ... Evy, did you ever get fired from a job? And then I cross my legs as soon as you ask me that question.

Lewis Howes 1:08:10 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 1:08:10 You're not gonna say anything. You're gonna take a mental note, "Oh, Evy just crossed her legs right when I asked her that question."

Lewis Howes 1:08:16 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:08:17 Why? I need to, I need to... Sorry, my son. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:08:21 [laughs] It's all good.

Evy Poumpouras 1:08:23 I need to, I need to pay attention to that.

Lewis Howes 1:08:26 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 1:08:26 Right? So that, you wanna just take notice. The whole goal is to be curious.

Lewis Howes 1:08:31 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:08:32 And so if we can give it a term maybe, you need to Lewis Howes yourself.

Lewis Howes 1:08:36 There you go. Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:08:37 When people come in, you are super curious about them. You care about everybody who comes in, who's coming in. I wanna know everything I can about them, that they're willing to share. I want them to feel comfortable to open up. I get a great interview. My viewers love it. Boom. This is like this with everything else.

Lewis Howes 1:08:53 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:08:53 If you can bring that level of passion and curiosity with people, everyone's gonna be open books.

Lewis Howes 1:08:58 Yes. That's it.

Evy Poumpouras 1:08:59 Everyone's gonna be an open book for you.

Lewis Howes 1:09:01 Now I'm curious about this with... So you, I think you said you're married for 12 years, right?

Evy Poumpouras 1:09:05 Yes.

Lewis Howes 1:09:06 You've been in-

Evy Poumpouras 1:09:06 I think so

Lewis Howes 1:09:06 ... married or in a relationship for 12 years

Evy Poumpouras 1:09:07 He's gonna be upset right now.

Lewis Howes 1:09:08 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 1:09:08 I'm trying to do the math in my head.

Lewis Howes 1:09:09 12 years. Um, and he's in the Secret Service as well, correct? Or he's in the-

Evy Poumpouras 1:09:14 He's, he was. He's a f- he was a former special agent. I get, ca- can't give too much away.

Lewis Howes 1:09:19 Sure, sure.

Evy Poumpouras 1:09:19 But he does work with, um-

Lewis Howes 1:09:21 Works with the government

Evy Poumpouras 1:09:21 ... the federal government-

Lewis Howes 1:09:22 There you go. Okay

Evy Poumpouras 1:09:23 ... in a special agent capacity. Yes.

Lewis Howes 1:09:25 So you're both in a similar field, right?

Evy Poumpouras 1:09:27 Exact same field. Yes.

Lewis Howes 1:09:28 Exact same field.

Evy Poumpouras 1:09:29 Training, all of that.

Lewis Howes 1:09:31 How does that work in intimacy and relationships when you both have these skills? Is it incredible, or are you guys constantly [laughs] like, you know, assessing and be like, "Huh, I'm noticing this strategy he's using. I'm noticing this"? Are you able to flow into it?

Evy Poumpouras 1:09:44 So as people, sometimes we get... Like, I'm gonna get emotional.

Lewis Howes 1:09:48 Oh.

Evy Poumpouras 1:09:48 Or he'll get emotional. And when I see certain things happen, I will be, I will, I will identify what's happening. Okay, he needs to vent.

Lewis Howes 1:09:59 Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 1:09:59 He needs to say this. Let me let him. He's not gonna hear anything I say-

Lewis Howes 1:10:03 Until he gets it out

Evy Poumpouras 1:10:04 ... he gets it out. So you just have to have, and I think this goes across the board for all relationships, if you can just, here's my word, shut up.

Lewis Howes 1:10:12 [laughs] And let someone communicate, speak.

Evy Poumpouras 1:10:14 Just let them go. Even if you don't like what they're saying.

Lewis Howes 1:10:16 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:10:17 Just let them say it. Let them get the, get it off their chest, then speak. That's super powerful. It's gonna help you.

Lewis Howes 1:10:23 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:10:23 And then they're also able to listen to you. So sometimes I will pull in a strategy, or sometimes we'll argue and he'll do a technique on me, and I'll realize it after the fact.

Lewis Howes 1:10:32 Ooh, he did this.

Evy Poumpouras 1:10:33 I'm like, "Oh, I know what he did." But then I'll realize, I understand why he did it. The whole goal of this stuff, it is not to manipulate or trick people. The goal of this stuff is to help progress a conversation. You don't wanna get stuck. When you feel stuck with people, this is why. You want progress and you, we all want progress in our lives, at work-

Lewis Howes 1:10:52 Yeah, mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 1:10:52 ... in our conversations, in our relationship. So when you are stuck, you have to ask yourself, "What am I doing that is causing me to be stuck? I want progress." So even in a conversation or dialogue, everything you do is to help keep the dialogue going in furtherance. In furtherance.

Lewis Howes 1:11:08 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 1:11:08 How am I podess- progressing the dialogue? Think of it this way, and there's something called, um, the behavior wheel, and it's actually these amazing researchers. The Allisons were the ones who created this, and they teach it to a lot, the top negotiators. They actually teach you-

Lewis Howes 1:11:24 It's called the Allison wheel?

Evy Poumpouras 1:11:25 Uh, the Allisons. Allisons are, they're a husband and wife-

Lewis Howes 1:11:28 Okay

Evy Poumpouras 1:11:28 ... who do research, and there's, uh, something called the behavior wheel that they teach.

Lewis Howes 1:11:31 Behavior wheel. Okay.

Evy Poumpouras 1:11:32 And this is where they teach you, again, to identify behavior.

Lewis Howes 1:11:36 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:11:36 And when you see a beh- behavior, how do you respond to that behavior?

Lewis Howes 1:11:39 How's the wheel look like?

Evy Poumpouras 1:11:41 So it's a circle.

Lewis Howes 1:11:41 Uh-huh. What's on the wheel?

Evy Poumpouras 1:11:43 It's got all the different behaviors.

Lewis Howes 1:11:44 Okay. Gotcha.

Evy Poumpouras 1:11:44 But I'll give you an example of one. Let's do this, what we're talking about. You're having a conversation with someone and they are, let's put them at the top of the wheel. They're high-power. They're controlling the conversation. They're setting the agenda. Now, when they are there, the other person has to go low power to allow them.

Lewis Howes 1:12:01 Because you can't both be in that position at the same time.

Evy Poumpouras 1:12:03 No. Look at this interview. What do you and I do? Do we-

Lewis Howes 1:12:06 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 1:12:06 ... we flip.

Lewis Howes 1:12:07 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 1:12:07 When you're high-power, when you're controlling the agenda, I go down here.

Lewis Howes 1:12:12 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:12:13 When I'm speaking and I'm high-power, I go back up here, you go down here. You understand for me to have progress in this conversation, we have to... Evy's high-power, I go low power, and that crazes, creates progress. Now, if we're both high-power, we're competing, we're arguing, nobody hears anything. And so relationships are like that. Even, even, uh, marriages, 'cause you brought up marriages. So if somebody is in this-

Lewis Howes 1:12:39 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 1:12:39 ... high-power, you go down here. And then when you can, you switch and you go up here. But if both people are up here, it's not gonna work. And if pe- both people are down here, it doesn't work. This is a, kind of a-

Lewis Howes 1:12:51 [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:12:51 Where do you wanna go eat? I don't know. Where do you wanna go eat?

Lewis Howes 1:12:54 Where do you wanna go eat? I'll go anywhere. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:12:55 I don't know. Where do you wanna go eat? You guys are gonna starve.

Lewis Howes 1:12:57 [laughs] Right.

Evy Poumpouras 1:12:57 'Cause somebody, somebody has to go high-power.

Lewis Howes 1:13:00 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 1:13:00 That's the behavior wheel. Now, that would be an example of the good behavior wheel. And to the Allisons, I'm sorry, I'm doing my best.

Lewis Howes 1:13:06 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 1:13:06 I don't wanna butcher your work, 'cause they do some great, great stuff. If you go... Now, some people will visit the bad wheel. The same thing, bad wheel. Bad wheel is when you have somebody who's very dominant, who's very domineering. They're trying to be high-power, but it's not in a good way.

Lewis Howes 1:13:21 Mm. It's aggressive, it's-

Evy Poumpouras 1:13:23 Very aggressive. It shuts people down. Now, here you have to be careful, and we see this in relationships, not just partner relationships, friendships, supervisors. When you have somebody like that and you recognize they're high-power, but in an unhealthy, not in a good way- And you go low power, usually-

Lewis Howes 1:13:40 You're just gonna taken advantage of, probably, right?

Evy Poumpouras 1:13:42 Yes. You become now weak.

Lewis Howes 1:13:44 A doormat.

Evy Poumpouras 1:13:45 Submissive, you become the doormat. And so what happens is over a period of time you've helped groom that person to stay here, and you go here. And that's why sometimes we'll see in relationships there's that one person who's the aggressor who's up here, and the other person who's super, um, dis- uh, avoidant-

Lewis Howes 1:14:04 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 1:14:04 ... submissive, and that's not good.

Lewis Howes 1:14:06 How does that person get out of that position without upsetting and making the other person more aggressive?

Evy Poumpouras 1:14:13 So what you would do is you don't wanna... You wanna go back to the initial example I gave you, which is the good wheel.

Lewis Howes 1:14:19 I love... You're both, yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:14:20 So one thing is when I have bad behavior, I don't wanna mirror that bad behavior because it escalates. So what you always wanna do is present the behavior you want the other person to have. You don't mirror them.

Lewis Howes 1:14:35 Mm. Just 'cause they're being in that-

Evy Poumpouras 1:14:37 Don't go there

Lewis Howes 1:14:38 ... behavioral state, you don't match them.

Evy Poumpouras 1:14:39 You don't match it, 'cause it's gonna... The whole thing's gonna take a nosedive.

Lewis Howes 1:14:42 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 1:14:42 So you wanna say, "I see..." Now, this is where it gets important. I see this behavior, I know what I'm seeing. It's not personal. I'm not gonna get emotional and upset, and how dare you and all that, even though I can think it and feel it, but if I identify the behavior, it's not as, it's not as piercing.

Lewis Howes 1:14:59 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:15:00 I know what I'm seeing. I understand this behavior. I know what's happening here. Now, I'm not gonna be weak submissive. What, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna go back to this good wheel. I'm gonna go low, I'm gonna go down here, but I'm gonna listen, and I'm gonna say, "Okay. Well, tell me why you feel that way." So I can still maintain eye contact with you.

Lewis Howes 1:15:17 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:15:17 I can still sit here. I can still show you that I'm assertive. So this is where I'm listening, but I'm not becoming submissive or avoidant or small or cowering away or letting you take over.

Lewis Howes 1:15:30 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:15:31 I'm taking this low power part of the wheel, but I'm here.

Lewis Howes 1:15:35 So how does someone command respect then if they're in the lower part of the wheel? You can still do that?

Evy Poumpouras 1:15:43 Well, it depends.

Lewis Howes 1:15:44 [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:15:44 So here's the thing. I feel like we're doing a whole psychology course.

Lewis Howes 1:15:47 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:15:48 One thing is if you have a relationship and for a long period of time you've had that dynamic, that power dynamic that we just talked, one person's the dominant, the this or that, and the other person's down here, once that's been set-

Lewis Howes 1:16:00 It's so hard, right?

Evy Poumpouras 1:16:01 ... that is very hard, almost impossible to get rid of.

Lewis Howes 1:16:07 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:16:07 I've actually consulted with people who have come to me and said, "I have a boss who's this way." And one of the first things I ask is how long you've been there, how long this.

Lewis Howes 1:16:15 Oh.

Evy Poumpouras 1:16:15 And when I hear, like, three, four, five years-

Lewis Howes 1:16:17 That boss isn't changing

Evy Poumpouras 1:16:18 ... I'm like, "You, you're gonna have to find another job." Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:16:20 The only way that boss would change is if, if his-

Evy Poumpouras 1:16:22 They got in trouble

Lewis Howes 1:16:23 ... they got in trouble, everyone leaves, or he starts losing a lot of money or, you know, something where it's a big breakdown.

Evy Poumpouras 1:16:31 Even then.

Lewis Howes 1:16:31 Right? You'd have to have a big breakdown and do a lot of work on yourself to say, "Oh, I'm the problem, not everyone else around me."

Evy Poumpouras 1:16:38 Right. But how many people actually get to that solution that they're the problem?

Lewis Howes 1:16:41 Yeah. Very few.

Evy Poumpouras 1:16:41 Most people would be like, "Look, look at the people out there."

Lewis Howes 1:16:43 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:16:43 "Look at Gen Z or Gen this or Gen that."

Lewis Howes 1:16:46 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:16:46 That's what's gonna happen.

Lewis Howes 1:16:46 The lazy this or that, whatever.

Evy Poumpouras 1:16:48 They're gonna, they're gonna deflect.

Lewis Howes 1:16:49 Blame. Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:16:49 So to answer your question-

Lewis Howes 1:16:52 Yeah

Evy Poumpouras 1:16:52 ... if you've groomed someone and you've been groomed to be here, and you shift, unless that person is on board and they realize what they're doing-

Lewis Howes 1:17:02 Mm

Evy Poumpouras 1:17:02 ... it'll work only then. If they don't, it's gonna be like, "What? Who are you now? What are you doing now? What do you think you are?"

Lewis Howes 1:17:08 It's probably even harder in an intimate relationship then. You've been with someone for five, 10 years, and you've had this dynamic. It's gotta be so challenging to break that mold, right?

Evy Poumpouras 1:17:18 It is. It is hard. If you break it, is that person gonna... The key is if you can break it without them knowing you're breaking it.

Lewis Howes 1:17:25 Wow.

Evy Poumpouras 1:17:25 So when you-

Lewis Howes 1:17:26 Man. Little subtleties

Evy Poumpouras 1:17:27 ... if you can s- Yes. So you have to un-groom them. You almost have to groom them the opposite way.

Lewis Howes 1:17:31 God, that's so much work it seems like.

Evy Poumpouras 1:17:33 Well, depends if you wanna stay or if you wanna go.

Lewis Howes 1:17:35 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 1:17:37 Truthful, in a scenar- scenario like that, it is very hard, 'cause you're trying to be... change long-term behavior that's been set. That's my role. That's your role.

Lewis Howes 1:17:47 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:17:47 It's set, and now you're trying to change the roles, and that person's gonna-

Lewis Howes 1:17:50 It's so hard.

Evy Poumpouras 1:17:51 Yes. You're... I don't wanna say, I don't want everybody to go get divorced or break up, but be aware. What you would have to do is slowly groom that person to do the opposite, unless you can convince them, "Hey, you're a part of this problem."

Lewis Howes 1:18:08 Mm-hmm. It might be tough, yeah, and that's where, like, acceptance comes in. At some point you just have to accept who you're with and realize this is who you're with. You either accept it, you try to change it, or you leave, right? It's like-

Evy Poumpouras 1:18:20 Yes

Lewis Howes 1:18:20 ... what sh- what choices do you have?

Evy Poumpouras 1:18:21 And that's... Some people do.

Lewis Howes 1:18:23 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:18:23 Some people will accept it. They'll get in that role. They're comfortable in that role. They know that role. They don't wanna get out of that role.

Lewis Howes 1:18:29 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:18:29 And they stay there. And it's also, it's not so bad. I worked with s- someone.

Lewis Howes 1:18:34 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:18:34 Actually, this isn't... This is... I've heard this a couple of times. Sometimes, and I'm not a relationship expert-

Lewis Howes 1:18:41 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 1:18:41 ... but I've had people speak to me about this dynamic, and they will, they will tell me, "Well, you know what? He doesn't hit me. It's not that bad."

Lewis Howes 1:18:49 Yeah. Just screams once a week, but-

Evy Poumpouras 1:18:50 And so I'll hear that-

Lewis Howes 1:18:52 Mm

Evy Poumpouras 1:18:52 ... and I'll say to the person, "Your, your baseline or your threshold of whether it's healthy or not is, 'Well, he doesn't hit me.'"

Lewis Howes 1:19:02 Why do people justify those things, and why they'll stay in a toxic work environment or intimate relationship when they make these justifications? Well, at least it's not this and this and this.

Evy Poumpouras 1:19:15 I'm invested.

Lewis Howes 1:19:15 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:19:16 I've invested... How many years you been with your girlfriend?

Lewis Howes 1:19:19 Uh, about a, about a year. Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:19:21 Okay.

Lewis Howes 1:19:21 About a year.

Evy Poumpouras 1:19:22 Okay, a year.

Lewis Howes 1:19:22 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:19:23 Okay. You've been with her a year. So if there's issues happening, in your, in your mind and heart you're like, "I put a year into this."

Lewis Howes 1:19:29 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:19:29 "I've invested in this. I don't, I don't, I don't want this to-

Lewis Howes 1:19:33 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 1:19:34 ... go away." And that's what happens. I think that's one. We invest so much time and energy. I have to start over.

Lewis Howes 1:19:40 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:19:40 I have to this. We do that. And then maybe if we're, especially if we're in that submissive role, we've already, our confidence and our-

Lewis Howes 1:19:50 Is lower, yeah

Evy Poumpouras 1:19:51 ... has, is lower. We feel weaker. We've had somebody push us there, and it's harder now to get out of it.

Lewis Howes 1:19:56 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:19:57 And we, we... It's amazing what a human being can normalize in their life.

Lewis Howes 1:20:03 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:20:03 Especially when there would, were cases of abuse where especially children. Y- when abuse, you, you would be amazed as to how a human being can adapt to the most egregious of environments, and that becomes their, their norm. Where somebody on the outside would be like, "I can't believe this."

Lewis Howes 1:20:20 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 1:20:20 We have this amazing ability to adapt to, to a, to a fault.

Lewis Howes 1:20:25 It's kinda like the analogy of the frog in, in hot water. Have you heard this? Where it's like a frog-

Evy Poumpouras 1:20:30 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:20:30 ... will stay in hot water, and then the more and more it, it gets hotter, they'll just keep staying there 'cause they're used to it, as opposed to just jumping out of a pot, right? It's like, and then they'll just die in boiling water eventually. Like, eventually you'll die.

Evy Poumpouras 1:20:42 But that's how everything is. It's, it's incremental.

Lewis Howes 1:20:44 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 1:20:44 People will do a little bit to you. They test it. "Oh, Lewis still stayed."

Lewis Howes 1:20:49 Oh, still here, so I can get away with more-

Evy Poumpouras 1:20:51 "Okay."

Lewis Howes 1:20:51 And push

Evy Poumpouras 1:20:51 ... I do a little bit more.

Lewis Howes 1:20:52 And push.

Evy Poumpouras 1:20:53 "Oh, Lewis did it. Okay."

Lewis Howes 1:20:55 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:20:55 "Oh." And it's, it's a groo- That's why it's called a grooming process.

Lewis Howes 1:20:59 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:20:59 You are groomed, and then that's why you have those moments where you stop and you think, "How did I get here? How did... This isn't me." It's not your fault.

Lewis Howes 1:21:08 Crazy.

Evy Poumpouras 1:21:09 But this is why looking at behavior is so important. Don't listen to the garbage people give you.

Lewis Howes 1:21:14 Oh, my gosh

Evy Poumpouras 1:21:14 ... look at what they show you.

Lewis Howes 1:21:15 Have, have you seen, uh, Tinder Swindler?

Evy Poumpouras 1:21:18 No. It's on, next on my list.

Lewis Howes 1:21:19 It's like the grooming process. It's... And when you watch it from an outsider, you think, "How could this happen?" But like you said, the more you're groomed and you tied into someone romantically and psychologically and emotionally, you stay even when the behavior gets worse and worse, right? It's this-

Evy Poumpouras 1:21:36 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:21:36 ... you know what I'm s- uh, you, you'll see when you see it, but it's f- crazy.

Evy Poumpouras 1:21:39 You know what will also help people? And look at who's around you.

Lewis Howes 1:21:45 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:21:45 I don't know if you do this. I would, I would, and I'm making an assumption that you do. Please tell me.

Lewis Howes 1:21:49 Uh.

Evy Poumpouras 1:21:49 I would assume or presume that you are very thoughtful about who you keep around you.

Lewis Howes 1:21:53 100%. 100%. In work environment, in personal life, 100%.

Evy Poumpouras 1:21:58 Okay.

Lewis Howes 1:21:58 And I'm even more... It's interesting because before the pandemic, something I realized is I would connect with almost everyone, and I would, and I would give time to a lot of people. I'd give meetings, or I'd wanna like, oh, let's meet this person and meet this person. And now it's like, oh, I really have like a handful of core friends that I wanna see consistently, right? And then other friends I'll see when I have time, but it's like those core friends, core team members. It's like really getting clear on that environment of the people that I wanna have in my life, and it's been a powerful, eye-opening experience.

Evy Poumpouras 1:22:35 Why do you do that?

Lewis Howes 1:22:37 Well, the, the clearer I am on my, uh, on my mission and my time, uh, I'm like, I don't wanna spread my time all over the place. It's, it's keeping me from my mission and the things that bring me the most joy, and it's also not deepening those relationships that I have that are really meaningful. So it's, I wanna spend more time with quality people that enrich my life, where we are in collaboration with each other in terms of just our experiences and our conversations and deepening those relationships. So that's, that's where I'm at right now.

Evy Poumpouras 1:23:09 So when you do that, you have these people that you select-

Lewis Howes 1:23:12 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 1:23:12 ... to have around you, that makes you more solid, more centered, right? It helps you in business relationships and everything.

Lewis Howes 1:23:19 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:23:19 And so when you have somebody who's maybe not so good come in, this is why having a good core of people around you, these people will notice that.

Lewis Howes 1:23:28 Mm. Really?

Evy Poumpouras 1:23:29 Yes. They will help you. So when you have, one, they become your norm. Solid, grounded people become your norm. If you're surrounded by that, then that's what you know, that's what you're used to. So if you have somebody, and I don't like this word, I just can't think of another one, toxic come along.

Lewis Howes 1:23:43 Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 1:23:43 Right? 'Cause we label everyone, label everybody toxic. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:23:46 Sure. Sure. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:23:46 Oh, they're toxic.

Lewis Howes 1:23:47 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 1:23:48 So if somebody toxic for you comes along, you will notice that quicker-

Lewis Howes 1:23:54 Yeah

Evy Poumpouras 1:23:54 ... because those people that are around you-

Lewis Howes 1:23:56 Will notice it

Evy Poumpouras 1:23:57 ... they'll notice it, but they're al- they've also given you that stability.

Lewis Howes 1:24:01 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:24:01 Now, if you, you are surrounded by off people, people who take advantage of you, there's a lot of noise, talking to everybody, getting everybody's chatter, you're not gonna pick that up. So one of the ways to offset this thing that we're talking about is to also s- really select who's around you.

Lewis Howes 1:24:19 Uh-huh. Absolutely.

Evy Poumpouras 1:24:20 Because they make you steady or not steady. I don't care how strong... I have a strong identity as a person. You have a strong identity. But if you and I surround ourselves with buffoons-

Lewis Howes 1:24:29 Mm. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:24:31 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:24:31 Start acting like a buffoon. Yeah, yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:24:33 We're gonna be off, right?

Lewis Howes 1:24:34 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 1:24:34 We're not gonna be as confident or as centered or strong. When things are off, we're gonna, we're gonna f- have that weakness. People bring, can either bring out strength or weakness.

Lewis Howes 1:24:44 Mm-hmm. That's why I think it's so crucial, um, you know, I've done... I, I feel like I've learned so many lessons over the years of, in multiple relationships that I've been in, right? I feel like you've gotta, you've gotta learn the hard way sometimes when you, when you, when you keep making these mistakes in the past. And all these previous relationships that I've been in have given me awareness of like my flaws, my insecurities, why I chose certain people, all these different things. And I never put blame on anyone else. It's always about me, right? And why I chose. And I remember interviewing, uh, Erwin McMan- McManus, who's a, a pastor here at a church called Mosaic. And I was asking, he's been married for, I think, four decades, right? And he's had this beautiful relationship. I go, "What's the secret to having a healthy, long relationship with someone?" The same person, right? And he said, "I hate to say this, but 80% of it, the happiness and the joy, is who you choose, is the person you choose." That's 80% of the success, right? So if you choose the wrong fit, you're gonna be stressed out and dealing with conflict constantly. And Having a great partner, especially someone like Martha, she was so intuitive, she also kind of keeps me, I don't wanna say protected, but can just be like, "Hmm, that was interesting conversation with that person." Like, "Make sure you watch out for their energy," or whatever. Just the subtleties of having someone strong in your corner, a friend or a partner, who can read people as well, I think is really important, who has got a solid identity like yourself.

Evy Poumpouras 1:26:17 I think you're right, 'cause ev- you know, and I know I'm not, and I'm not a relationship person.

Lewis Howes 1:26:22 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 1:26:22 I can only speak for my own. Um, I, I picked a solid partner.

Lewis Howes 1:26:27 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:26:28 And I... He looks out for me.

Lewis Howes 1:26:31 That's nice.

Evy Poumpouras 1:26:32 He'll see things. I remember even when I began doing the news and I wasn't paying attention as much as I should have to my body posture, 'cause it's TV.

Lewis Howes 1:26:39 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 1:26:39 And during commercial break, he'd be like, "Sit up, you're slouching." [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:26:42 [laughs] You also said something that, um, earlier you said, "Oh, yeah, he, he watched our conversation and he thinks you're, like, a good guy," or something like that. Or your behav-

Evy Poumpouras 1:26:51 A good person, yes

Lewis Howes 1:26:52 ... yeah, a good person. So are you guys doing this for each other, where-

Evy Poumpouras 1:26:55 Yes

Lewis Howes 1:26:55 ... he'll watch your interviews that you're on and be like, "Oh, there's something off about that, that interviewer. Be careful there," or...?

Evy Poumpouras 1:27:01 It's... This is... Think of it this one, this is the person you have as your companion.

Lewis Howes 1:27:04 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 1:27:04 So what the pastor said was right, because first, this is the person you have the most exposure to.

Lewis Howes 1:27:10 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:27:11 They know you the most intimately, and you want a solid person. If you can be on equal playing field, that's powerful.

Lewis Howes 1:27:19 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 1:27:19 When one is like this or it's like this, it's, it's hard. Um...

Lewis Howes 1:27:23 So when you're trying to fix someone or you're trying to coach someone in a relationship, what usually happens? I know you're not the relationship coach here, but...

Evy Poumpouras 1:27:32 When it, if... Identify the behavior. I always go back to behavior-

Lewis Howes 1:27:37 Yes

Evy Poumpouras 1:27:37 ... because when I tell you, "You did this to me and you this," it means y- something is wrong with you.

Lewis Howes 1:27:43 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:27:43 And you don't understand, and then you feel attacked. But when you can identify the behavior and say, "You did this specific thing or said this specific thing," now you're giving somebody something visual to see.

Lewis Howes 1:27:57 It's not them as a human being.

Evy Poumpouras 1:27:58 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:27:58 It's the thing that happened.

Evy Poumpouras 1:27:59 It's the thing you did here. Because you did this thing or said this thing, it caused this.

Lewis Howes 1:28:04 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:28:04 This is why it's upsetting to me. Now, now that person in that moment will either understand, be able to communicate and be illuminated by it and have a discussion, or they'll shut down, they'll be aggressive, they'll do these other things. And then based on their behavior, you now can make intelligent choices and say, "Is this a person I can progress with, or is this a person I should step away from?"

Lewis Howes 1:28:28 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:28:29 Because w- w- everybody is flawed. Like, I'm flawed. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:28:32 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 1:28:33 So it's-

Lewis Howes 1:28:34 What would your husband say is your biggest flaw, or the thing that you've needed feedback on the most, or support in overcoming, or improving on, or whatever it might be?

Evy Poumpouras 1:28:45 To be truthful, I think being in-

Lewis Howes 1:28:47 And when someone says, "To be truthful," does that mean they're about to lie? [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:28:50 No, no, I'm being truthful.

Lewis Howes 1:28:51 [laughs] Goddammit.

Evy Poumpouras 1:28:52 But you're right, it's a qualifier.

Lewis Howes 1:28:53 Is that a cue?

Evy Poumpouras 1:28:53 Honestly, this-

Lewis Howes 1:28:54 Honestly.

Evy Poumpouras 1:28:55 But y- but-

Lewis Howes 1:28:55 Well, if I'm telling you the truth.

Evy Poumpouras 1:28:56 Yes. So you could have been cued by that and just been like, "Let me see how she answers."

Lewis Howes 1:29:00 Let me, let me notice, yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:29:01 Um, and this is why you have to be careful-

Lewis Howes 1:29:02 S- sorry to interrupt you

Evy Poumpouras 1:29:03 ... when it comes to deception, right?

Lewis Howes 1:29:05 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 1:29:05 But I will tell you, I think one of the things I've had to work on is because I came from a law enforcement background-

Lewis Howes 1:29:12 Uh-huh

Evy Poumpouras 1:29:12 ... I started off NYPD and then US Secret Service, and you're around, you're around people, the worst of... You're around people when they are at their worst, especially when you're dealing with, uh, criminal behavior. You are around some of the worst behaviors and the people when they're at their worst. No one's ever happy to see the police, by the way.

Lewis Howes 1:29:30 No.

Evy Poumpouras 1:29:30 Fire department, they love. "Oh, the firemen are here."

Lewis Howes 1:29:32 Ah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:29:32 Police department, they, "Ugh."

Lewis Howes 1:29:34 [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:29:34 So having said that, you're interacting with people who despise you, hate you, and who are consistently lying to you. So one of the traits that actually they see in law enforcement is cynicism, and you become, they become quite cynical.

Lewis Howes 1:29:49 Of everything, 'cause you're seeing the worst.

Evy Poumpouras 1:29:50 Because... Right, but you're dealing with it on a daily basis-

Lewis Howes 1:29:53 Oh, man

Evy Poumpouras 1:29:54 ... all day long. Now, that is a trait that I had to be careful of and that I noticed. So where people in general, most people, the average population, the majority of the population, are more likely to be trusting and to believe in people. So I say this to people, too, so when they feel bad, "Oh, this person tricked me. What's wrong with me? I got duped," there's nothing you did wrong. People by gen- in general, in nature, naturally want to believe and are more trusting. The exception is law enforcement, because-

Lewis Howes 1:30:26 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 1:30:27 ... you are typically around people who are not honest, genuine, deceitful, hateful. You deal with that type of behavior.

Lewis Howes 1:30:34 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 1:30:34 I don't wanna say people, behavior.

Lewis Howes 1:30:35 Sure.

Evy Poumpouras 1:30:36 You become more cynical. So I had to work on that, where I am more inclined to see the flaw or to see the problem than to be as trusting.

Lewis Howes 1:30:48 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:30:48 I'm the opposite.

Lewis Howes 1:30:49 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 1:30:49 I'm very, you know, uh, w- I'm do- doing the assessment.

Lewis Howes 1:30:53 Where's the problem? [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:30:54 What does this person want? What's the problem? What do they want from me?

Lewis Howes 1:30:56 What do they really want? Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:30:57 What do they... Where's the deception? Everyone's got an... That's what I had to work on.

Lewis Howes 1:31:00 [laughs] I didn't even realize until you told me, but you're pregnant and you're, you're due to have a baby, and-

Evy Poumpouras 1:31:07 Did you see or did you think it was just-

Lewis Howes 1:31:08 I didn't even-

Evy Poumpouras 1:31:08 ... a lot of donuts I had?

Lewis Howes 1:31:09 I didn't even see.

Evy Poumpouras 1:31:10 Okay, good.

Lewis Howes 1:31:10 I wasn't even like, you know, maybe I should have been more aware and checked-

Evy Poumpouras 1:31:13 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:31:13 ... your whole body and assessed everything, but I was just looki-... I look in the eyes usually when I'm connecting-

Evy Poumpouras 1:31:17 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:31:17 ... with someone. I'm not-

Evy Poumpouras 1:31:18 You're being polite.

Lewis Howes 1:31:19 Yeah. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:31:19 You're like, "She could be pregnant."

Lewis Howes 1:31:20 Exactly. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:31:21 "She could have had a-"

Lewis Howes 1:31:21 Right, right. I didn't know until you, like, pointed it out. But I'm curious, s- you're four or five months pregnant. What are you?

Evy Poumpouras 1:31:28 I'm five.

Lewis Howes 1:31:28 Has anything shifted in you in terms of your intuition or your ability to sense behaviors differently while being pregnant, um, or do you feel like it's the same as before?

Evy Poumpouras 1:31:42 You know, I... And this is, this is probably gonna come into your s- your language. I feel people's energy more.

Lewis Howes 1:31:49 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 1:31:50 And that was the-

Lewis Howes 1:31:50 Not their behaviors?

Evy Poumpouras 1:31:52 I still analyze behavior. I can't turn that off.

Lewis Howes 1:31:53 Yeah, but you feel energy, like the energy.

Evy Poumpouras 1:31:54 I just feel people more and I'm much more aware. So I don't know, and I don't know if this is, this is kinda going to a different space, and I tried to think about it. I don't know if it's because there's another soul inside of me, if you think of it-

Lewis Howes 1:32:05 Uh-huh

Evy Poumpouras 1:32:05 ... to some extent, and that makes you more sensitive. But I am more maybe sensitive, not in a negative way, towards what's around me, and more, um, f- I feel a bit more.

Lewis Howes 1:32:19 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:32:20 So I'm using energy-

Lewis Howes 1:32:21 Yes

Evy Poumpouras 1:32:22 ... a bit more. That I'm aware of.

Lewis Howes 1:32:23 What do you, what do you feel more?

Evy Poumpouras 1:32:25 I fe- I think, I, one, I have noticed, and I'm curious to see, like, what other pregnant women have noticed.

Lewis Howes 1:32:30 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:32:31 But what I noticed is, I guess, think of it like a rad- radio frequency. If my frequency was good before, it's like really crystal clear now as far as somebody's energy coming through. Um, uh, m- I, maybe I just s- get their behavior a bit more, and I was always pretty on point, but I can really-

Lewis Howes 1:32:50 Wow

Evy Poumpouras 1:32:51 ... feel people on a stronger level, uh, more acutely and more, uh, maybe intuitively. I don't know why.

Lewis Howes 1:32:59 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 1:32:59 I have no knowledge in this space. This is more an internal thing that I've-

Lewis Howes 1:33:04 Pff

Evy Poumpouras 1:33:04 ... noticed.

Lewis Howes 1:33:04 So the Secret Service should be hiring pregnant women more-

Evy Poumpouras 1:33:07 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:33:07 ... to have that, like, superpower, right?

Evy Poumpouras 1:33:09 Maybe.

Lewis Howes 1:33:10 Wow, you should come back and consult for a couple months. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:33:13 Maybe, maybe. So I, it brings that-

Lewis Howes 1:33:15 Mm

Evy Poumpouras 1:33:15 ... um, awareness. I also think you become... I don't know. I mean, I work very much, so I-

Lewis Howes 1:33:21 Yeah

Evy Poumpouras 1:33:21 ... even though I'm connected and in tune, um, I've also not... It was very important for me for it not to shift everything else in-

Lewis Howes 1:33:29 Uh-huh, yeah

Evy Poumpouras 1:33:30 ... my life. I've always been very, um, task-oriented.

Lewis Howes 1:33:34 Sure, sure.

Evy Poumpouras 1:33:34 I like the work I do. Um, and this is just like a whole other journey and who, God, God help me, right? I don't know who's gonna-

Lewis Howes 1:33:41 It's exciting. I'm very excited for you.

Evy Poumpouras 1:33:42 Yeah, like kids doing pushups.

Lewis Howes 1:33:43 [laughs] Exactly.

Evy Poumpouras 1:33:44 People, people around their kids, my kids, and be like, "Get down and give me 50."

Lewis Howes 1:33:47 Yeah, exactly.

Evy Poumpouras 1:33:47 "I told you not to eat that cookie."

Lewis Howes 1:33:49 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 1:33:49 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:33:49 Get to work.

Evy Poumpouras 1:33:50 Get to work. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:33:51 What would you say were the three greatest lessons you learned from working with the Secret Service and these different presidents that you worked with that you have taken with you and you'll apply for the rest of your life?

Evy Poumpouras 1:34:03 I've learned to... One thing is resilience.

Lewis Howes 1:34:07 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:34:09 When you're around people who are in such a world stage and they receive such hate, so much venom, and you can see them just persist and get shredded and then get up and give a press conference-

Lewis Howes 1:34:21 Mm

Evy Poumpouras 1:34:21 ... when other people, you know, completely ob- become obliterated 'cause somebody said something to them, that, that I learned.

Lewis Howes 1:34:29 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:34:30 That, that, yes, part, part of it was training because they teach you like, "Hey," I don't wanna be like, "Toughen up," but toughen up. No one, it wants to hear you-

Lewis Howes 1:34:38 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 1:34:39 But it gives you that resiliency-

Lewis Howes 1:34:41 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 1:34:41 ... and that awareness. But then also seeing people, heads of state, like you can't fall apart. You're running a country. That's one thing. The second thing I was taught was to be of service to other people.

Lewis Howes 1:34:57 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:34:58 And it seems to me that I don't see a lot of it out there. Everyone, and I don't know if it's just here in the US, I could be wrong, but we're very, very me, me, me. What's in it for me? Uh, I want this, I, I, I. And it kinda brings me back to that train track scenario-

Lewis Howes 1:35:22 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 1:35:23 ... where we don't do for other people. We don't serve. And when I mean serve, just serve for the greater good. It was always interesting when people would say to me, "You would really take a bullet for that person?" 'Cause the idea is when you're a-

Lewis Howes 1:35:37 The president, yeah

Evy Poumpouras 1:35:37 ... Secret Service agent, a president and whoever it was, and not just the president, but anybody else you were tasked to protect, and they would think like there was something really wrong with that. And I would always feel like I can't think of a better way or a better reason to give my life-

Lewis Howes 1:35:56 Mm

Evy Poumpouras 1:35:57 ... or to die than saving the life of another human being.

Lewis Howes 1:36:00 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:36:01 It taught me to serve and to give of myself. I think that that's just powerful.

Lewis Howes 1:36:07 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:36:07 And I think sometimes when we grow up, and especially when we're younger, we just think about ourselves. And when I say to give of ourselves, I don't mean to just give to our small inner circle. I mean to humanity.

Lewis Howes 1:36:20 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:36:22 That, I think, was the biggest thing.

Lewis Howes 1:36:24 That's number two.

Evy Poumpouras 1:36:25 That's number two. And the third one was shut up.

Lewis Howes 1:36:28 [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:36:29 I learned in training-

Lewis Howes 1:36:30 Wow

Evy Poumpouras 1:36:31 ... to shut up. Not everything's about you. Listen. Observe. You know? And just sh- some- you learn so much when you shut your mouth.

Lewis Howes 1:36:42 Mm-hmm. I think, um, one of my greatest insecurities became one of my greatest superpowers later in life because I felt afraid to speak to my friends when I was in elementary school, middle school. Later in high school, I'm more confident, but I was unsure of how to communicate, right, a- and how to tell stories and be interesting around people. I was more unsure of myself and I was more quiet. Because just speaking in school, I wasn't able to read aloud, all these different things, right? And what it did for me is I just started observing people. I, I started watching people at school. Not in s- a weird, creepy way, but I would just be in the hallways and just watch how people interacted with each other and their whole energy or the behavior. I would watch everything. And when I got into early in my career, my, my mid to late 20s, I remember thinking, "I have no clue about this business stuff. I'm this young guy. There's all these professionals that I'm meeting. Me acting like I know something is gonna be really disingenuine, so let me just ask questions and shut up." And for, you know, a decade I've been doing this show where I've just asked questions. You know, I speak very little, maybe 10% of the time, 15% maybe, when I'm interviewing someone. And I gained so much wisdom by shutting up and by asking. So I think if people learn to not try to be impressive to other people all the time, of course, if they're being interviewed, it's different, but if you're always trying to be the center of attention and have everything to say, I think you become more interesting when you listen and allow others to communicate. You become the most interesting person in the room when you're not speaking.

Evy Poumpouras 1:38:31 Yes.

Lewis Howes 1:38:32 I think. If you can ask the right questions and get people to share about themselves in certain ways, it's like, wow, no one's really been that thoughtful to ask, you know? So...

Evy Poumpouras 1:38:41 You know, it's... I, I've learned this, and this is a side thing. I've learned that heroism is quiet, strength is quiet, confidence is quiet, and that the most lethal person in the room is the person who says the least-

Lewis Howes 1:38:57 Mm

Evy Poumpouras 1:38:57 ... and who observes.

Lewis Howes 1:38:58 Mm. Yes. Especially it's, like, allowing everyone else to speak first before you give your opinion or before you give an idea, right? You get to hear what everyone else is saying, and be like, "Okay, I really like that. Let me pull from that, and this, and this, and now let me present my case."

Evy Poumpouras 1:39:12 Can I ask you a question, Lewis?

Lewis Howes 1:39:14 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:39:14 I'm curious because you've been doing this for so long, and people probably see you in such a way for inspiration and guidance. I would presume, again, this is an assumption, correct me if I'm wrong-

Lewis Howes 1:39:25 Uh-huh

Evy Poumpouras 1:39:25 ... that people come to you a lot for advice.

Lewis Howes 1:39:28 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:39:28 What do you do in those scenarios? Because I would think you get hit up a lot.

Lewis Howes 1:39:35 A lot. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:39:35 How do you... What do you do? How do you h- how do you manage that?

Lewis Howes 1:39:39 I, I try to say, like, if someone's emailing or messaging on social media and they ask for advice, my whole thing is, "Listen, I share all my wisdom here on the podcast, and there's much... people much smarter than me. Check out this episode." So I try not to... I try to save my time and their time by saying, "If you listen to this show or watch it," you know, there's over 1,200 episodes, "I've said pretty much everything, you know, to your specific case." So I might just send them a link to something and listen to this, or just like you, you've got your book, you've probably given a lot of your strategies already in the book, right? If someone says, "Tell me this strategy," you're like, "Just read the book and then ask me a question, a follow-up question," right? So it's like I've got the book, I've got the podcast, things like that. If people wanna pay for it or if they wanna have it for free, they have access. So it's more of just directing people to the answers or to people who have the answers. That's what I try to do.

Evy Poumpouras 1:40:32 How about the real people-

Lewis Howes 1:40:34 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 1:40:34 ... like people that you interact with, or acquaintances-

Lewis Howes 1:40:36 Yeah

Evy Poumpouras 1:40:36 ... or friends of fr-

Lewis Howes 1:40:37 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 1:40:37 ... I'm just curious to see how you manage all that.

Lewis Howes 1:40:40 My, my, my strategy has always been my g- my greatest coaches in sports never gave me the answer, right? They never gave me the advice. They would give me drills. They would give me feedback. They would show me a game film or videos to see, like, what was really... what worked well, what didn't work well. They would have me observe. They would have me watch other talented people playing basketball or football. I'd watch other people who are professionals and see how they did it, and then watch myself back and how am I doing it? Am I close to that or not? And the greatest coaches would challenge me with questions, you know. It'd almost be like, "Well, if you were in this position and coaching someone else, what would you tell them?" You know? So I think I try to do that as much as possible without giving people the answer. Because if we're always giving people the answer to their problems, they're not gonna be thinking about how they can overcome it on their s- on their own.

Evy Poumpouras 1:41:35 Do you find that you have to kind of, because you've been doing this for so long-

Lewis Howes 1:41:39 Mm-hmm

Evy Poumpouras 1:41:39 ... and it's become so popular, from a protective mode for yourself, do you find yourself having to shield yourself or protect yourself from getting hit up so much? I'm even thinking just on a personal note, like, "Hey, Lewis."

Lewis Howes 1:41:53 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:41:53 "Hey, Lewis. Hey, Lewis."

Lewis Howes 1:41:54 Yeah. You mean just out in the world? Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:41:56 Yes.

Lewis Howes 1:41:57 I try to just listen and, um, and give a quick solution, or I say, "You know, I got a great episode for you. Send me a me- send me a DM, and I'll send you the link."

Evy Poumpouras 1:42:04 Yes.

Lewis Howes 1:42:05 To keep it shorter as opposed to let me coach you for an hour.

Evy Poumpouras 1:42:08 Yes.

Lewis Howes 1:42:08 You know. Um, but it all depends, yeah, where I'm at in the situation. But yeah. Okay. I've got a... I wanna remind people about this book. The last time we had you on, people loved this, and, uh, they've been getting the book. But if you haven't got this book yet, Becoming Bulletproof: Protect Yourself, Read People, Influence Situations, and Live Fearlessly by Evy Poumpouras. Make sure you guys get a few copies of this. This will be a powerful tool in your toolkit to just improve the quality of your life, your confidence, and your skills with people. You said in the beginning, I believe the same thing, the quality of our life is directly related to the relationships we have, right? Our success, our joy, our love is in how we interact with people in our life. And so if you wanna protect yourself and also create more abundance in these relationships, this is the way to do it, business, life, career, all these different things. So make sure you guys get a couple copies of this book. Um, follow you. Where are you at most right now? Is it Instagram? Is it Twitter? Where are you at the most?

Evy Poumpouras 1:43:09 Probably Instagram.

Lewis Howes 1:43:11 Instagram.

Evy Poumpouras 1:43:11 Instagram, Facebook-

Lewis Howes 1:43:13 Yes

Evy Poumpouras 1:43:13 ... Twitter.

Lewis Howes 1:43:14 Okay. Do you spend the most time on Instagram yourself?

Evy Poumpouras 1:43:16 I try to check all of them-

Lewis Howes 1:43:17 Okay. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:43:18 ... actually. I do try to connect with people.

Lewis Howes 1:43:20 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 1:43:20 Absolutely.

Lewis Howes 1:43:20 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 1:43:21 I feel like if somebody's going through their, the process of reaching out, or at least I read everything. I do my best, yes.

Lewis Howes 1:43:27 Yes, of course. That's good.

Evy Poumpouras 1:43:28 Absolutely.

Lewis Howes 1:43:29 So check you out on Instagram, Evy Poumpouras, and evypoumpouras.com's got all your information. You do a lot of speaking, consulting. You've got this book. I think you said you're working on another book as well, right? Maybe.

Evy Poumpouras 1:43:41 Not yet.

Lewis Howes 1:43:41 But in the future, I'm sure you'll have many more.

Evy Poumpouras 1:43:43 Not yet. You're working on another book.

Lewis Howes 1:43:44 I am working on another book.

Evy Poumpouras 1:43:45 Which I'm waiting to-

Lewis Howes 1:43:46 Yes, yes. Um, how else can we be of service to you today?

Evy Poumpouras 1:43:50 I think, I think you're, you were great. I appreciate you, Lewis. Like, it was, uh, just a pleasure coming back, and no, you've been solid.

Lewis Howes 1:43:59 Okay, awesome. Uh, one final question for you. Before I ask, I wanna acknowledge you, Evy, for the ... the consistency you have in your life. You, you consistently show up to serve, and I think coming from that service mindset of working for 12 plus years in Secret Service and with government, and then transitioning and saying, "How can I take this to more people in the world?" is really inspiring. So I acknowledge you for constantly being of service and teaching people s- like, powerful strategies to help them improve their life. It's really meaningful work, and so I really acknowledge you for that, and I'm glad you're doing it while you're pregnant. I know you're gonna be a great mother. You got a great kid on your hands coming up now. He's gonna be, uh, a lot of pressure, though, with both you and the Secret Service. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:44:42 Yes. [laughs] This kid's gonna be terrified.

Lewis Howes 1:44:44 [laughs] Terrified or the most powerful human being ever. Um, my final question for you, Evy: What's your definition of greatness?

Evy Poumpouras 1:44:51 Man, Lewis, why do you ask these questions?

Lewis Howes 1:44:53 [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:44:53 You always make... I, I always pause, uh, 'cause I don't wanna-

Lewis Howes 1:44:56 It's good

Evy Poumpouras 1:44:56 ... just say whatever.

Lewis Howes 1:44:57 Yeah, it's good. Think about it.

Evy Poumpouras 1:44:59 If tomorrow were to be my last day and I'm okay to go, then I've lived a great life. If tomorrow were to be my last day and I'm not okay to go, then that means I've not lived a great life, and I need to lock it up and change something.

Lewis Howes 1:45:14 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:45:15 That's what would I think of greatness, did I live a great life? And i- it's not, will I live it later on, I'll do it later, it's right now. Tomorrow's your last day. Am I okay to go? I'm okay to go.

Lewis Howes 1:45:27 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:45:28 That's, that means I've lived the best life I can live, a great life that I can live.

Lewis Howes 1:45:32 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:45:33 How about you, before you high-five me? [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:45:37 Greatness is discovering and developing your unique skills and talents, using them to pursue your dreams, and in that pursuit, making the maximum impact on the people around you. I feel like we all have a uniqueness, and we gotta develop those skills and figure out what those are and sharpen them, and based on life experiences. I feel like we have to listen to the dreams inside of us and pursue those dreams and be on the journey. Whether we accomplish them or not is n- is irrelevant, but are we on the journey of the thing that we feel like we're chosen to do for that season of life? Are we listening to the inner voice or whatever conversation inside us or feeling that's saying, "Go do this, go try this thing"? And in that pursuit, like you said, are we making it all about me and look at me, or are we using that tool and, and pursuing that dream to inspire, impact, influence in a positive way? That's what I think greatness is for me.

Evy Poumpouras 1:46:37 Yeah. Well, I thank you because you're also in service of everybody.

Lewis Howes 1:46:41 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 1:46:42 Everything you do and everything you film and every- one you talk to, it's, it's what, how can I help people?

Lewis Howes 1:46:50 That's the mission, is to serve 100 million lives weekly, to help them improve the quality of their life. That's what we're about.

Evy Poumpouras 1:46:56 It's a solid mission.

Lewis Howes 1:46:57 Yes. [laughs]

Evy Poumpouras 1:46:58 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:46:58 Appreciate it. Thanks, Evy.

Evy Poumpouras 1:47:00 When people say, um, their body doesn't match up with, doesn't match-

Lewis Howes 1:47:03 Ah

Evy Poumpouras 1:47:03 ... what they say, so they'll say no. Yes.

Lewis Howes 1:47:06 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:47:06 And so you'll see the body will do this, like, the body's in conflict with what they're saying. It doesn't happen to everybody. It's everybody, everyone is so unique and so different, and I think what popular culture likes to do