The Psychology Research That Proves You Are Not the Problem — Your Environment Is | Angela Duckworth

Angela Duckworth 0:00 Effort isn't enough. Grit's not enough. If you don't have those support structures, if you don't have the mentors, the teammates, the culture, I, I think they make all the difference. I mean, you know, trying hard in a losing situation, you know, only leads to, uh, really, like, frustration and burnout.

Lewis Howes 0:15 A psychologist, a professor, and a best-selling author that sold over five million copies of her book called Grit, the one and only Dr. Angela Duckworth.

Angela Duckworth 0:24 If you are trying, and then you're trying harder, and then you're trying harder still, and you do not feel like you are making progress in your marriage, in your career, in your friendships, I think that is a time you should stop, ask yourself, "Is it the situation?" Like, do I need to pivot and put myself in a better situation? And then, you know, of course, like, then, then keep trying. I mean, I'll never stop believing in try harder, but that I think is a signal, and I think I missed that signal.

Lewis Howes 0:52 When does someone know that they should change their environment?

Angela Duckworth 0:55 There's this research that, uh, I didn't do, but I think is, like, elemental to everything that I say. Um-

Lewis Howes 1:04 I'm curious to ask you first, if you could have all the grit in the world but not have proximity to the right environment, do you believe we could still accomplish our big goals and dreams?

Angela Duckworth 1:14 I don't. I think the answer to that is, is no. Grit is great.

Lewis Howes 1:20 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 1:20 I haven't given up on grit. In fact, I think the final common path to greatness is always going to be a path of consistent effort. But effort isn't enough. Grit's not enough. I think if you don't have, if you don't have those support structures, if you don't have the mentors, the teammates, the culture, even something as mundane as, like, the physical environment that you need. I mean, if you're a swimmer, like, how long is the pool, right? Like, and how heated is the pool? Um, these seemingly trivial sometimes, I guess, like, things that are outside of you, I, I think they make all the difference. I mean, you know, trying hard in a losing situation-

Lewis Howes 1:59 [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 2:00 ... you know, only leads to, uh, really, like, frustration and burnout.

Lewis Howes 2:03 Mm-hmm. When does someone know that they should change their environment?

Angela Duckworth 2:08 I don't think we know as soon as is optimal, to be honest. You know, there's, um, there's this research that, uh, I didn't do, but I think is, like, elemental to everything that I say, um, in this book. I, I wanna credit Dick Nisbett and Lee Ross, these two psychologists who studied what's called the fundamental attribution error, and in particular, um, this guy Lee Ross, um, had a personal experience that led him to discover that when we think of ourselves and others, we often ignore the situation. So you ask this question, like, when do we know it's time to change our situation?

Angela Duckworth 2:42 I'll tell you about what he found, which is that we are so oblivious to our situation that, you know, it can kind of, um, you know, be like the water of a fish. It's like, I think you should be sw- Yeah, I think you should be swimming over here, but, like, you've so habituated to it, you're, um-

Lewis Howes 2:58 Mm-hmm. You're so used to it

Angela Duckworth 2:59 ... you're so used to it that you're blind to it. His personal experience was, he was getting his PhD and, and he's at a roundtable and, um, of course he knows his research well, like, it's all he's been doing. Um, but the, you know, inquisitors, right, these professors who are, like, basically there, like, asking him, like, incredibly, uh, random and, like, sort of like abstruse questions like, "Well, what was the wavelength of light you used in this experiment?" And you know, honestly, instead of feeling smart, he felt stupid.

Lewis Howes 3:28 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 3:29 And instead of feeling like an expert, he felt like a total rookie, and he passed, right? But that wasn't the end of the story. So then he becomes a professor at Stanford-

Lewis Howes 3:38 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Angela Duckworth 3:39 ... and now he's on the, literally on the other side of the table, right? So now there's this PhD student and they're defending their thesis, and he's the one, like, asking all the clever questions. And you know, you can go through anything and be like, "Oh, on page 168 you say, like, what did you mean by that?" And suddenly he's like-

Lewis Howes 3:53 And they're like, "Uh, I don't know." Like, yeah.

Angela Duckworth 3:55 Right. The, the, the student's like, you know-

Lewis Howes 3:56 They feel stupid. Yeah, yeah

Angela Duckworth 3:56 ... yeah, like they're, they're falling apart. And yeah, the student felt stupid, and then he felt smart. And I think from that personal experience and then, like, a whole lifetime of research, he found that, you know, so often we'll be like, "Oh, this person doesn't know anything. I don't know anything. Oh, this person knows a lot. I know a lot." We think it's the person, it's really the situation. So he later wrote a book, uh, called The Person and the Situation. Was not a bestseller.

Lewis Howes 4:22 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 4:22 It dramatically influenced the work of people like Malcolm Gladwell, um, Michael Lewis. Um, it's an academic book, and the book says the situation is incredibly powerful, but like gravity it's invisible and ignorable. And so I think your question is a great place to start, which is like, how do you know? And I think oftentimes, like, not soon enough. Like, not soon enough. Like, maybe I should, uh, maybe I should be, like, on a different team. Maybe, maybe a different coach. Like, maybe a different zip code, right? Like, maybe my kitchen isn't set up the way my kitchen should set up, be set up. Maybe my office isn't set up the way my... Maybe my nightstand isn't set... Like, we are ignoring a situation that I think we shouldn't ignore.

Lewis Howes 5:07 Mm-hmm. It's interesting you're saying this because I had a, a, a guy who just graduated who came to my office yesterday to ask me some questions from one of the schools that I went to in college, and he was asking me like, "If you could go back to my age, 22, and if there's anything you would change, is there anything?" And I'm like, "Well, you know, everything happens for a reason."

Angela Duckworth 5:24 That's a good question.

Lewis Howes 5:24 But I'm like, "Listen, I wish I would've married the right person sooner."

Angela Duckworth 5:29 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 5:29 Or like, I wish I would've been... 'Cause I was in multiple long-term relationships.

Angela Duckworth 5:33 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 5:33 And it took a lot of energy being with the wrong people. And I don't make, I don't, I don't put any blame on the women that I was with and dating. Like, it's not their fault.

Angela Duckworth 5:42 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 5:43 I chose to be with them. I chose to stay with them-

Angela Duckworth 5:45 Yeah

Lewis Howes 5:45 ... longer than I knew I should have.

Angela Duckworth 5:47 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 5:48 I go, "The only thing is, like, you're gonna be tempted. You're a good-looking guy. You're fit."

Angela Duckworth 5:52 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 5:52 "You're this. You've got passion. You're smart, and you've already got a great c- like, a job opportunity. And like, just make sure you date the right girl."

Angela Duckworth 6:00 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 6:00 "And date with the intention to marry."

Angela Duckworth 6:02 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 6:02 "Don't just fool around because it might be fun in the moment- But it might drain your energy from actually going after what you want. So I'm curious, how i- in your research or in your perspective,

Lewis Howes 6:14 if you have the right proximity and the right situation and the right environment and grit, but you're with the wrong person intimately, how much does that impact your ability to succeed or fail?

Angela Duckworth 6:25 You know, I'm married. Um, I, I wouldn't be in this chair right now if I weren't married to Jason Duckworth. Um, uh, and it's not because, um, I mean, it's not... I- it doesn't have anything to do with grit, right? So, like, I will tell you, and I also wish I had married him earlier, but-

Lewis Howes 6:43 How long you been married?

Angela Duckworth 6:44 I've been married, I, like, don't know.

Lewis Howes 6:45 [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 6:45 I always lose track. Definitely over 25 years-

Lewis Howes 6:47 Okay, well that's fine. Yeah, it's a lot

Angela Duckworth 6:48 ... because we were thinking, right?

Lewis Howes 6:49 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 6:49 It's like 25 plus.

Lewis Howes 6:50 Yeah, yeah.

Angela Duckworth 6:50 Right? Um, so, um, we're like, that's what? Silver anniversary.

Lewis Howes 6:53 I guess, yeah.

Angela Duckworth 6:53 I think we're like post-silver anniversary. Um, uh, I, I did try though, by the way. I've al- I've always dated, um, according to your philosophy, which is like, "Are we not getting married?"

Lewis Howes 7:02 Right. Interesting.

Angela Duckworth 7:02 Like, yeah, like next.

Lewis Howes 7:03 [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 7:04 Um, I think the average amount of time that I dated a guy was, like, four weeks, and-

Lewis Howes 7:08 Wow

Angela Duckworth 7:08 ... there were a lot of them, but I did meet Jason Duckworth. But let me, let me say that I think when you talk about your situation, like yeah, it's like, you know, what's in your cup? It's like, you know, do you have food on your counter? It is also, and obviously, um, most importantly I think, like, the person that you're with. Um-

Lewis Howes 7:26 Mm-hmm

Angela Duckworth 7:26 ... I cannot tell you how, uh, how... Like, I think Angela Duckworth is great. Angela Duckworth and Jason Duckworth, like, like, so much greater.

Lewis Howes 7:38 Really?

Angela Duckworth 7:38 Um, I, let me-

Lewis Howes 7:40 So this wasn't all you.

Angela Duckworth 7:41 When I did finish this book, which was, um, uh, a very long, hard road, which we can talk about or not, but I, it was like I think I have never been so humbled [laughs] as, um, in the five-year journey of writing this book. I, and, you know, not just the most intellectually challenging work, like, honestly, the most personally, uh, and emotionally challenging work. Um, when it finally was done, I could only use we, not I. I was like, "We have a book." Like, like, like, "Now we're going to get published." One of the reasons, and you, you tell me, I'd love to hear more about your marriage, I, I feel like I no longer conceive of my journey in life as being, like, me trying to do things. I mean, I really do think of, like, you know, I have to write an op-ed with Jason-

Lewis Howes 8:29 Really?

Angela Duckworth 8:29 ... as like... Yeah. I mean, at, at, like, you know, he's not a psychologist. He's a real estate developer, by the way.

Lewis Howes 8:34 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 8:35 Um, residential real estate.

Lewis Howes 8:36 But he's your psychologist because he's married to you, in a sense.

Angela Duckworth 8:39 He is.

Lewis Howes 8:39 Like, he understands you-

Angela Duckworth 8:41 Yeah

Lewis Howes 8:41 ... psychologically, emotionally.

Angela Duckworth 8:43 He, he understands me. He, um, you know, he's my intellectual sparring partner. I think that the, the, the idea that, like, I am just myself and then, like, occasionally I get feedback doesn't do justice to, like, how important he is.

Lewis Howes 9:00 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 9:00 And again, like, going back to, like, you and your situation, I will go all Eastern on you because-

Lewis Howes 9:04 Okay

Angela Duckworth 9:04 ... I am of Chinese descent.

Lewis Howes 9:05 Yeah. [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 9:05 So, like, I have a little bit of the right.

Lewis Howes 9:06 Sure.

Angela Duckworth 9:07 Born in Philadelphia, but my parents came, uh, from China, and they, they, my dad in particular would, um, talk about how different it was to come from the East and the West. And so I will, um, tell you what I think my father, um, was saying to me when he said, like, "When you are in the West, it's like you're an individual, and you know, you have a resume and a career, and yes, you have relationships with a, you know, romantic partner, with friends, with society."

Lewis Howes 9:32 But it's your dream.

Angela Duckworth 9:33 But it's your dream.

Lewis Howes 9:35 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 9:35 You know, like, you're the silhouette. You're the r- He was like, "In the East," speaking personally, he was like, "That's not how we think of it." Like, you're part of a whole.

Lewis Howes 9:43 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 9:43 Um, you're part of a society. You know, your relationships are-

Lewis Howes 9:46 Wow

Angela Duckworth 9:46 ... not, like, separate from you. So, um, so yeah. Like, yeah, my husband, the real estate developer, I think in this just, in the most profound way, I'm, I'm struggling to find the words for it-

Lewis Howes 9:56 Mm-hmm

Angela Duckworth 9:56 ... um, is so much part of, of anything that I could call success. And by the way, not just this book, like the last one. So I-

Lewis Howes 10:05 That's what I mean-

Angela Duckworth 10:05 Yeah

Lewis Howes 10:05 ... your whole career, like your success as a professor and all the awards you've received and the books and the sales. Like, everything.

Angela Duckworth 10:11 Like, like everything.

Lewis Howes 10:12 Would you be where you are without having the right marriage partner?

Angela Duckworth 10:16 I would not be where I am-

Lewis Howes 10:18 Really?

Angela Duckworth 10:18 ... if I didn't have this, this marriage.

Lewis Howes 10:20 But you had the talent, you had the smarts, the skills, the other relation- the network. You, you know, would you s- Like, why wouldn't you be where you are without the right intimate partner?

Angela Duckworth 10:29 Um, I'm gonna answer it, and I also just wanna add, I know a very successful Silicon Valley venture capitalist who off the record said... I mean, he came to me, and he was like, "I always look for grit." And I said, "Great. So do I." I asked him, "What else do you look for?" He said, "Do you wanna really know?" I was like, I was like... He's like, "Off the record, I look for somebody who's in a, a very stable, strong..." You can call it a romantic relationship, right? Like, marriage-

Lewis Howes 10:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Angela Duckworth 10:54 ... would be the most common form-

Lewis Howes 10:56 Yes

Angela Duckworth 10:56 ... of such a relationship.

Lewis Howes 10:57 Uh-huh.

Angela Duckworth 10:58 And I was like, "Oh, that is so interesting." So let me just say that I'm not alone in, like, believing-

Lewis Howes 11:03 Yeah

Angela Duckworth 11:03 ... that, you know, the two of you are, like, a unit, you know?

Lewis Howes 11:06 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 11:06 Like, it's, it's, um, not even possible to really conceive a... I mean, I will answer you, but I'd love to hear what, like, what you would say to the same question. Um, I, you know, w- do feel like at some point during the day when we, like, part ways, we have breakfast, and then, like, I go off to work as a psychologist, you know, and I'm on conference calls he's not on, and I, like, sit and stare at a blank page, and he's not standing next to me. I mean, obviously, I'm also independent. I don't any, I don't, I don't think any of this, like, diminishes. Like-

Lewis Howes 11:35 Mm-hmm

Angela Duckworth 11:35 ... oh, you know, I don't feel like I take credit. Um, but, um, but everything I do, I think of us, like, trying to embark on this challenge. Like, I didn't know how to open this book, honestly. Um, I was like, "How do I explain to people the power of the situation?" 'Cause the situation is so ... abstract. It's like, "How do I explain to them- Mm-hmm ... that it's everything and everyone around me?" It's your environment, it's your room, it's your, the mentors around you, the school, your, the- And maybe I could've taught you- ... the city you're in ... Lewis, right? The neighborhood But you weren't around, and I'm not married to you, right? [laughs] So I'm, like, sitting there struggling, and, um, and Jason said, "Why don't you write about our marriage?" Ooh. And I was like, "Okay." Um- He just wanted you to brag about him, you know? [laughs] He did ask actually just the other day. He's like, "Have you been telling people that, like-" How amazing I am? Yeah, yeah [laughs] . [laughs] To say in so many words. I was like, oh, I was like, "I don't know that I'm mentioning that enough." Yeah. Um, but it was such a generous act, and the reason is that he didn't want me, or wasn't suggesting that I write about, like, all the good parts. He was suggesting that I write about a crisis that we had in our marriage. I mean, it was, like, the most courageous act, something that we hadn't publicly talked about- Wow ... at all. What happened? Um, and, um, yeah. So I'll, I'll tell you the story. Uh-huh. And again, I think, like, it's just so indicative of, like, how we are doing this, like, in the deepest way together. So I met Jason Duckworth. I was in my 20s. I, you know, had this dating philosophy. It was like, "We're not getting married next. Not getting..." Um, but when I met him, I was like, "Let's do it." Really? Like, "Let's go." Um- Like first couple days, or first couple weeks- Uh ... you're like, "Hey." A couple hours. I had a dream- Mm-hmm ... the first night, um, and I wrote it down in my journal, so I have, like, written evidence that this is true. I'm not making this up. I had the dream that we were getting married. I was walking down the aisle, and I couldn't see the groom, and then he turned around, and it was this guy I'd just met named Jason. Um, and so I, I told him about it the second time I saw him, and I think he thought it was- Crazy? ... crazy. Yeah. I guess that's a- And you're what? Yeah ... 20- Natural response ... 3, 25? Are you 27? I was 26, I think. Uh-huh. I think I'd just turned 26. Wow. Um, I'd just turned 26. I was, like, 26 and two days. And so we had a head-over-heels romance. Like, there were some ups and downs, but, like, oh, my God, I was in love. Um, so that's not what I wrote about. I didn't write about like, oh, and then chapter whatever. Like, it ended up being chapter five, not chapter one. Yeah. But, um, he wanted me to write about my marriage crisis.

Angela Duckworth 13:58 He thought it would be a great way to, like, explain the power of the situation. I will tell you what happened. Um, everything was going great. You know, he's like you, and he's like me. Like, y- like, try to outwork us, right? Yeah, yeah. It's like, you know, like- Let's go. Right, like, let's go. [laughs] It's like, you know, maybe I don't have the highest IQ score in the room. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, but, like, watch me work. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Like, so that is Jason Duckworth. Um, and that is Angela Duckworth. And I, you know, and you've, you shared with me that that's your personal story. So when we saw each other, it was like looking in the mirror. It was like, "Oh, my God, let's go." And, and it was working. Like, trying harder was our life philosophy, and it worked until it didn't. Until exhausted and burnout and overwhelmed. So- Yeah ... yeah. So let's see. So, and I don't know, maybe there's a scenario where it could've worked forever, but I don't think that happens for most people. Yeah. So we get married, and he's starting his real estate career, and you know more about business than I do, despite my being a business school professor. So you'll know- [laughs] ... that, um, you know, I'm, I'm a professor. Uh-huh. I'm on tenure track. Um, uh, he's a real estate developer, 2008 financial crisis. Mm. Um, I, I know so little about, like, finance- Uh-huh ... and economics that, like, I s- like, I, I gave him the copy for this chapter, and he was like, "I think you got the... Sweetie, I think you got the- [laughs] ... date wrong for the financial crisis- Yeah ... that, like, you know, sent the United States and the rest of the world into- Mm-hmm ... like, a global recession. It was, like, the worst housing market in- Yeah ... you know, recent American history. So here he is, like, starting out as a very ambitious I'll outwork you, uh, real estate developer, um, in the worst time in history to be a real estate developer. What happened to our marriage in this time is, and this, like, I'm glad I mentioned to you that I'm of Chinese heritage, because it is relevant. So he's working harder and harder, because the philosophy of somebody who's like, "I will try harder, and that is my superpower. I will work my way out of every problem," has an incredible vulnerability, which is, like, you go from 60-hour work weeks to s- To 80, to, yeah, yeah, to 100. 100. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? And I counted. Double it, yeah, yeah. So, right. I know people are like, "Oh, you know, have you really added it up?" I'm like, "Oh, yeah. Trust me." Yeah, yeah. "I've added them up." Yeah. So he's working like crazy, and, um, and honestly, like, becoming incredibly unhappy. Like, miserable would not be the right... No, miserable would exactly the right adjective for it. I'm, you know, trying to be what my mother, who was raised in China, like, raised me to be, which is the perfect wife. Mm. Like, okay. That's impossible. I know. Well- It's i- I had a lot of therapy since this all happened. Yeah, yeah. And now you also... But at the time, right? Like, you know, 20-something Angela- Uh-huh ... um, head over heels in love, uh, and raised to be, like, a perfect wife. So I'm working harder. So I'm trying to get tenure, but also we had these two girls, and, like, you know, I need to serve them organic fruit and- [laughs] ... like, keep up my Pilates routine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also I've got this husband, and when you are raised as I was raised, like, Lewis, my mother laid her hands on my shoulders at college graduation, and she, with a tear in her eye, said, "I'm so proud of you. You're ready to be a wife." Um, and so for me- Wow ... my husband's unhappiness was my failure. Oh. Um, so then I just worked harder. I was like, "I'll dust bus, you know, at 5:00 in the morning. I'll d- so I will make everything right, and my husband will be happy." But then, so we were both just digging ourselves into, into, like, I guess kind of a foxhole, 'cause that's what it felt like. We were just like, you know, we're just, like, soldiers in a foxhole trying to make things work. And all the happiness, I mean, the joy, like, I was so in love with Jason Duckworth when we met that I couldn't even remember that at, at this point. Oh. And so the crisis that I write about is how each of us had spent our lives being gritty, try-harder people, and we had to reckon with the reality That trying harder in a losing situation doesn't make you into a winner.

Lewis Howes 17:51 Mm.

Angela Duckworth 17:51 It didn't work for us, and we had to change the situation in fundamental ways to, to rescue our marriage and to rescue our careers, um, I mean, to rescue ourselves.

Lewis Howes 18:04 Mm.

Angela Duckworth 18:04 Um, and so, yeah, I, I belatedly, in a way, like, came to understand that working harder in a losing situation is just a recipe for, you know, exhaustion, burnout, and, and misery.

Lewis Howes 18:17 Wow. Now, there's a couple things I relate to there. One, you know, I was... I told you before that I was in multiple long-term relationships, not married, but just in long-term dating relationships-

Angela Duckworth 18:29 Yeah

Lewis Howes 18:29 ... committed relationships, and there'd be seasons where I'd know, like, "Oh, this was not... We're not supposed to continue."

Angela Duckworth 18:35 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 18:35 But for whatever in me, the athlete or the person that says, "Don't give up"-

Angela Duckworth 18:38 You don't wanna quit

Lewis Howes 18:39 ... I was like, "I'm gonna figure this out. We'll do whatever it takes. I'll do more. I'll change. We'll go to therapy," whatever it was.

Angela Duckworth 18:44 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 18:44 And I repeated that in, like, four or five different relationships.

Angela Duckworth 18:46 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 18:47 And not most people, but I would say some people, after five, 10 years of a marriage, with they get to that point, they would say, "You know what? We've lost the love. We've lost this."

Angela Duckworth 18:57 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 18:57 Like, "We've, we've burned ourselves to the ground."

Angela Duckworth 18:59 And we've tried everything.

Lewis Howes 19:00 "Let's break up. Let's divorce. Let's break up, even if we have kids." And I'm not saying it's right or wrong for people to, to make their decisions, but why did you feel like that ending the relationship and removing yourself from what was-

Angela Duckworth 19:12 The situation

Lewis Howes 19:12 ... the situation-

Angela Duckworth 19:13 Yeah

Lewis Howes 19:14 ... was not the right thing to do at that time for you?

Angela Duckworth 19:16 So there's some subtlety here, right? 'Cause it's like, okay, so what I hear you saying is that, like, this had become an unsustainable situation, Angela. Like, why isn't breaking up, like, the right thing to do? And I think... And like you, I'm like, far be it from me to pass judgment on anyone's marriage or life, because I don't know anything about it.

Lewis Howes 19:32 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 19:32 But I can speak personally, and it, there is some nuance here, because divorce was a way to change the situation, right?

Lewis Howes 19:39 Big time.

Angela Duckworth 19:39 And I thought, like, I would be a happy, you know, single mom, and then, you know, he... Or happier, right? Like, less miserable.

Lewis Howes 19:46 So you thought about this. You thought about like-

Angela Duckworth 19:47 Oh

Lewis Howes 19:47 ... what would that look like if we were-

Angela Duckworth 19:48 I took him out for a walk, and I was like... And out of the blue, I was, you know, like, all in one moment [laughs] I was like, "Okay, I know you think everything is perfect. I've been crying my eyes out every night, and I don't wanna be in this marriage anymore." So-

Lewis Howes 20:00 Wow

Angela Duckworth 20:01 ... it was not, uh-

Lewis Howes 20:02 How did he take that?

Angela Duckworth 20:03 ... it was not a great night. You know, I wrote about this, but I won't, don't know that I did it justice. Like, uh, I don't think there's anything more devast- he's a, like, a child of divorce. Like-

Lewis Howes 20:13 Oh, man, the heartbreak

Angela Duckworth 20:14 ... I really don't think there is anything I could have said that was more wounding-

Lewis Howes 20:20 Oh

Angela Duckworth 20:20 ... than that. Um, I think it was terrifying. I mean, I think it was like every negative adjective you could think of. It was terrifying. It was, like, crushing. Uh, it was devastating. And, and I won't lie, it, part of the reason why we're still married is grit, 'cause he was a little bit like, "Oh, no, I'm not done." Like, you know, like-

Lewis Howes 20:36 What do you need from me? I'll do it.

Angela Duckworth 20:37 Like, I, like, yeah, like [laughs] I'll-

Lewis Howes 20:38 [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 20:39 ... you know, we'll do it. Um, so there was a little bit of grit, but I will tell you, um, I will tell you, you know, what happened and why it is that, like, getting situated, I guess, you know, there were other ways to do it, but I'm glad that we went the path we did. So there were calibrations to our situation, as opposed to, like, a radical-

Lewis Howes 20:57 Yeah

Angela Duckworth 20:57 ... like, changing, you know, like, just splitting up. So, um, I was also raised not to have therapy. Like, I was raised... I remember my father and my mother were f- you know, I have siblings, and there was a moment in time in my childhood-

Lewis Howes 21:12 No one talked about emotions or feelings or-

Angela Duckworth 21:14 Like, like, verboten. And there was a moment in time where, like, I think the school, somebody reached out and was like, "Your family needs to go to therapy." And by that, I mean the family. And so I remember this one episode. You know, it's like a sepia-colored photograph. It's a little fuzzy. But I remember being on this couch with my family, and-

Lewis Howes 21:34 When you were a kid

Angela Duckworth 21:35 ... with a k- my, yeah-

Lewis Howes 21:36 When you were a kid, yeah

Angela Duckworth 21:36 ... and my parents were there.

Lewis Howes 21:38 Really?

Angela Duckworth 21:38 And my dad, like, stormed out, um, and said, like, uh, you know, very, uh, like, unrepeatable things about, like, the therapist. And so, like, I did not, I did not grow up thinking, like, therapy-

Lewis Howes 21:49 This is good. Yeah

Angela Duckworth 21:50 ... is great. Like-

Lewis Howes 21:50 [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 21:50 ... therapy should be part of your situation. So at this marriage crisis, um, uh, Jason,

Angela Duckworth 21:55 you know, said, whatever, pleaded, said, um, like, "Therapy."

Lewis Howes 22:00 Yes.

Angela Duckworth 22:00 Like, "You need therapy, I need therapy, and we need therapy."

Lewis Howes 22:03 And how'd you respond?

Angela Duckworth 22:04 Um, I, I was, like, incredibly resistant to the idea.

Lewis Howes 22:07 [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 22:08 You know, like, also, like, when you f- when you feel like you've already gone to the place where-

Lewis Howes 22:11 Yeah

Angela Duckworth 22:11 ... you're like, "Oh, by the way, I thought through this"-

Lewis Howes 22:12 Thought about it, yeah

Angela Duckworth 22:12 ... thought, like, "I've thought it all out," and, like, there's no, there's no solution here, so-

Lewis Howes 22:16 There's no coming back, yeah

Angela Duckworth 22:17 ... there's no coming back. But maybe there was enough of a Chinese wife in me that I was like, "Oh, but my husband wants me to go to therapy, so I'll still..."

Lewis Howes 22:21 [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 22:22 Like, we went. Um, and that was a profound change in my situation. I think, like, you trying to figure out your problems alone is a different situation than you trying to figure it out with somebody whose whole job is to, like, help people like you figure, and who has seen, has, like, pattern recognition. So, so I, you know, found this therapist. Her name is Dee. She's still my therapist.

Lewis Howes 22:43 Really?

Angela Duckworth 22:43 Jason found a therapist. We went through another th- another-

Lewis Howes 22:45 So you did it individually and then together?

Angela Duckworth 22:47 We did, like, we had the biggest therapy bills, like, in, uh, well, maybe not in history, but there were three therapists for two of us in one marriage-

Lewis Howes 22:55 Right

Angela Duckworth 22:55 ... and that wasn't a great ratio for me. And we were, you know, just, it was a huge amount of our [laughs] annual income.

Lewis Howes 23:01 Time, energy, money.

Angela Duckworth 23:01 Time, energy, you know, these, like, two little girls we were raising. Like, you know, grandparents, like, taking shifts so that we could each go to therapy, that we could both go to therapy. I think that that was only one change. But, like, you in a marriage trying to figure things out on your own by just trying harder is, like, a whole different world from, like, you together, like, vulnerable enough to be like, "I guess it's time for therapy. Like, I can't figure this out on my own. I can't talk about it with you except for if there's this third person in the room." Like, it did... It wasn't, and it wasn't the only thing we did, but it was, like, part of the turning point, right?

Lewis Howes 23:38 Mm.

Angela Duckworth 23:38 Um, you know, asking for help, I think, is a big-

Lewis Howes 23:41 Wow

Angela Duckworth 23:41 ... part of getting situated.

Lewis Howes 23:42 It is. Do you feel like you'd still be married- And as successful as you are in your career if you didn't go through therapy with him at that season?

Angela Duckworth 23:50 I know that I wouldn't be as successful as I am because you know what I've also found in my research, Lewis? People aren't gritty when they're not happy.

Lewis Howes 23:58 Mm.

Angela Duckworth 23:58 So if you want to be gritty and successful, you have to be happy, and I'm-

Lewis Howes 24:03 But maybe getting a divorce and getting out of the situation, maybe you would've felt a sense of freedom-

Angela Duckworth 24:06 Well, there is the road not taken

Lewis Howes 24:07 ... and peace that, you know, it's like-

Angela Duckworth 24:08 I know, there's the road not taken

Lewis Howes 24:08 ... "Oh, maybe I don't have anything. I'll have to go to therapy for a year and deal with stress and bills and, like, ugh, changing myself. Like, maybe it'd just been, I can be who I want and find someone else." Like, this idea.

Angela Duckworth 24:18 So I have, like, nearly memorized The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost.

Lewis Howes 24:22 Oh.

Angela Duckworth 24:22 You know, like, "Two roads diverged in the yellow wood, and there I, the weary traveler, stood, and looked down one as far as I could to where it bent in the undergrowth," right? I haven't memorized the whole thing. That's the first stanza. And you get to the end, it's like, you know, basically the reason why that poem gets repeated all the time is, like, who hasn't thought about, like, "But what if I hadn't stayed with you?" Or, like, "What if I had got..." Like, or, "What if I had stayed in Ireland?" Or whatever it is, you know? You just have these, like, the, "What if I'd stayed in football?" Like, you have these other roads, and they're not taken. I don't know what the other roads are. I haven't taken them. I, I'm trying not to swear, but I love this road, and I so, so love my husband. Like, I, I don't know, but I will say this. The thoughts that I had in my head, like, "This is ruined," like, "It's no longer a fairy tale," like, "I can't make you happy, therefore I'm a failure as a wife," like, um, "We are not meant to be," those thoughts are not true, and it was only by changing my situation that I could change my thoughts to, "Well, you are miserable, and I am miserable." [laughs] Facts.

Lewis Howes 25:24 It happens.

Angela Duckworth 25:24 Um, it doesn't have to be that way. It also doesn't mean that you're a congenitally miserable person or that I am congenitally unable to be a good wife. Like, there were so many assumptions that I had in my head that hadn't I changed my situation, um, that, that it wouldn't have changed my thoughts, right? And I think one of the, one of the things I would really do... Like, we've had a conversation before this where I said, "I'm slightly uncomfortable, like, you know, being on book tour."

Lewis Howes 25:52 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 25:52 Like, you know, I don't... But there is something I feel incredibly passionate about in psychology, and that is my job, right? I am not a real estate developer. I'm a psychologist. Like, in psychology, there is this very simple way of understanding human behavior that I learned about halfway through my career and I think is important to deliver to the world, and it gets back to, like, well, how does this all fit together?

Angela Duckworth 26:14 There's just three boxes if you wanna draw them on a piece of paper, and the third box is, like, how you respond, how you feel.

Lewis Howes 26:21 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 26:21 Are you miserable? Are you happy? Are you confident? Are you working 10 hours that day or two hours that day? What did you eat? What did you drink? Like, any behavior you can think of, any feeling you can think of is in box three.

Lewis Howes 26:33 And that's how you respond to what happened?

Angela Duckworth 26:34 That's how you're responding, right?

Lewis Howes 26:36 Your response.

Angela Duckworth 26:36 And people can be different, right? You're like, "Oh, you know, Ryan, you know, John, like, Sally, like, they stayed later, and, you know, Sue didn't." Like, okay, that's the response, right? Then what happens in box two? What, box two are your thoughts.

Lewis Howes 26:49 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 26:50 So one of the reasons why many therapists today will identify themselves as cognitive therapists, like, cognitive therapists work on-

Lewis Howes 26:58 Thinking therapists? Yeah

Angela Duckworth 26:59 ... your thoughts.

Lewis Howes 26:59 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 26:59 Like, what are the thoughts that are making you under-confident? Like, you're feeling like an imposter. Let's think about the thoughts that go through your head together. Like, let's try to under- You know, you don't think this marriage is gonna work. You feel... Whatever you feel. Like, it's the thoughts. So cognitive therapy, like, you go, and the therapist helps you interrogate and challenge maybe maladaptive and inaccurate thoughts, right?

Lewis Howes 27:21 Mm.

Angela Duckworth 27:22 So I think that's a lot of-

Lewis Howes 27:23 Mm-hmm

Angela Duckworth 27:23 ... that's a lot of growth. You talk about greatness. Like, I think a lot of that is becoming aware of your self-talk and your thoughts. But I wanna say, um, and I'm not saying that therapists are not saying this, too, but I wanna say that there's another box. It's like, what... Okay, that's box two and box three. You know what box one is? Box one is your situation.

Lewis Howes 27:40 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 27:41 Like, who are you with? Like, are you with a therapist? Are you not with a therapist? I mean, I also came clean to my friends who I had not really been sharing this with on the whole. Um, I... There were also professional changes we make. We changed box one. We changed our situation. When you change your situation, you automatically change your thoughts.

Lewis Howes 28:00 Mm.

Angela Duckworth 28:01 When you change your thoughts, you automatically change your behavior. So I feel unapologetic and unequivocal that, like, people should understand that everything you do comes from what you think.

Lewis Howes 28:13 Mm.

Angela Duckworth 28:13 And everything you think is influenced by your situation.

Lewis Howes 28:16 How many days does it take to go from total beginner to reasonably proficient at a new skill? Well, if you practice for a focused hour a day, then about 250, which also happens to be the number of reasons to choose T-Mobile. Here's an excellent reason: they have the fastest 5G home internet according to Ookla Speedtest, which you can test for yourself worry-free with their 15-day money-back guarantee. Another great reason, it's fast and easy to set up, too. Plug it in, and you're online in practically no time with no appointment or technician needed. Those are just a few reasons. Find yours at T-Mobile.com/HomeInternet where you can check availability and try it for yourself. They're so sure you'll love it, you get your money back if you don't. Fastest according to Ookla Speedtest Intelligence data second half of 2025. All rights reserved. Redeem money back guarantee within 30 days of cancellation. You know this guy, this younger guy who came, uh, yesterday to meet with me.

Angela Duckworth 29:20 The one who asked you for advice?

Lewis Howes 29:21 Yeah, yeah. The younger guy who just-

Angela Duckworth 29:22 I loved his question, by the way

Lewis Howes 29:23 ... just graduated.

Angela Duckworth 29:23 I already love this guy. I've never met him.

Lewis Howes 29:25 Yeah, nice guy. I, I was telling him, like, "Listen, you know, everything I went through, all the challenges, they've all taught me who I am today," and this and that, you know? And I'm grateful for all the experiences, but I know that my energy was drained so many times and for so long in certain relationships. And I don't blame anyone else. I take full responsibility. Um, and I wish I would have learned that skill on how to navigate those situations better. Sooner

Angela Duckworth 29:53 Yeah

Lewis Howes 29:53 ... because now being married for, you know, and with Martha for the last five years, it has brought me so much greater energy in my life, more joy, that has allowed me to expand my energy in positive ways. I feel, like, better, right? It's given me more, more energy, given me more confidence, all these things, and less stress.

Angela Duckworth 30:11 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 30:12 And I think whenever I'm stressed, I make worse decisions in life.

Angela Duckworth 30:15 Right

Lewis Howes 30:15 And I, and I make... You know? And I don't respond, like you said, in the third box as well-

Angela Duckworth 30:21 Right

Lewis Howes 30:21 ... to situations.

Angela Duckworth 30:21 You're not your best self. Like-

Lewis Howes 30:22 Not your best self. You- I'm like a six out of a 10 every day ver- or like a four out of 10.

Angela Duckworth 30:26 So are you, like, a different Lewis because, like, it's Lewis and Martha?

Lewis Howes 30:29 100%. 100%. Yeah, yeah, 100%.

Angela Duckworth 30:31 Wait, like-

Lewis Howes 30:31 And this is the interesting thing. You mentioned therapy.

Lewis Howes 30:34 Because when I met Martha, I was so clear that I was not going to allow chemical emotions to cloud my thinking, to just act, "Oh, we're in love, and this is amazing, and it feels good."

Angela Duckworth 30:46 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 30:46 "And let's just not ask the deep questions. And let's... It feels good being around each other." So early on when we were dating, um, in the first couple months, I was like, "Listen, we're having an amazing time, and it seems like it feels it, it... So many things are lining up. We're like, this is a- amazing," right? But I said, "For whatever reason, I'm not willing to get into a committed relationship unless we start in therapy."

Angela Duckworth 31:10 Really?

Lewis Howes 31:11 Yes. And-

Angela Duckworth 31:12 At the beginning of your relationship?

Lewis Howes 31:13 The beginning of the relationship, because every other relationship ended in therapy, and it never works out.

Angela Duckworth 31:17 [laughs] You, you were like-

Lewis Howes 31:19 So I said-

Angela Duckworth 31:19 ... "Wait, we have the tail, and we're like..."

Lewis Howes 31:21 And I, and I-

Angela Duckworth 31:21 Yeah, yeah

Lewis Howes 31:21 ... and I was like, "I don't wanna go over the next year of everything's gonna be great, and then we move in in a year or a year and a half or whatever it is, and then we start finding out things about each other that don't work." We're trying to go back to that feeling you had with, uh, Jason, right?

Angela Duckworth 31:34 Yeah, yeah.

Lewis Howes 31:34 In the beginning. You try to remember that fantasy at the beginning.

Angela Duckworth 31:37 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 31:37 And you can't find it 'cause you're stressed out. You're overwhelmed. You hate each other, whatever it is. And I was like, "I don't wanna get to that point."

Angela Duckworth 31:44 Right.

Lewis Howes 31:44 I wanna know that we have shared values, shared vision, and shared lifestyle in the beginning, and we're really honest with each other.

Angela Duckworth 31:51 Right.

Lewis Howes 31:51 And maybe quickly we find out it doesn't work out.

Angela Duckworth 31:53 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 31:54 But at least-

Angela Duckworth 31:54 Which is great, right?

Lewis Howes 31:55 I'd rather do that in three to six months-

Angela Duckworth 31:57 Which is great for both of us

Lewis Howes 31:58 ... than three to six years. And-

Angela Duckworth 31:59 God, I've never heard of this before. This is awesome.

Lewis Howes 32:01 It was the best thing that we have ever done because right away she said, "Absolutely. Let's do it," which I thought she would-

Angela Duckworth 32:06 Also a good sign

Lewis Howes 32:07 Great sign

Angela Duckworth 32:08 Such a good sign. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 32:09 And, and we were able to just navigate little misunderstandings, little potential-

Angela Duckworth 32:14 Yeah

Lewis Howes 32:14 ... disagreements that could have blown up into something bigger so quickly. And it wasn't always comfortable. And there were some-

Angela Duckworth 32:20 Right

Lewis Howes 32:20 ... moments that were vulnerable and it was like-

Angela Duckworth 32:22 Yeah

Lewis Howes 32:22 ... "Oh, this doesn't feel good." But-

Angela Duckworth 32:23 Yeah

Lewis Howes 32:23 ... we were able to work through it with a, a mentor.

Angela Duckworth 32:26 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 32:26 A third party.

Angela Duckworth 32:27 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 32:27 That's all they do.

Angela Duckworth 32:28 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 32:29 Instead of us figuring out when we're emotional.

Angela Duckworth 32:32 Expert.

Lewis Howes 32:32 It was the greatest gift we gave ourselves and our relationship.

Angela Duckworth 32:35 And how long did you go to this, um, th-

Lewis Howes 32:36 Probably about a year.

Angela Duckworth 32:38 Wow.

Lewis Howes 32:38 In the first ye- and it, and it was just like we appreciated each other.

Angela Duckworth 32:42 Genius.

Lewis Howes 32:43 'Cause I know we're in this together.

Angela Duckworth 32:44 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 32:44 And we've done this work early, and we're willing to keep figuring things out together when we need to. And it's been the most beautiful five-year experience with someone-

Angela Duckworth 32:56 Yeah

Lewis Howes 32:56 ... ev- ever.

Angela Duckworth 32:57 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 32:57 And again, we've faced challenges. We have, you know, adversity we're going through and different stuff.

Angela Duckworth 33:01 Right.

Lewis Howes 33:01 Like, we just had twin girls, uh, 10 months ago.

Angela Duckworth 33:04 Whoa.

Lewis Howes 33:04 Challenges in hospital, all these different things are happening.

Angela Duckworth 33:06 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 33:07 But the fact that we created a, almost a framework of connection, of vulnerability-

Angela Duckworth 33:13 Yeah

Lewis Howes 33:13 ... of we're in this together in the beginning has created a better relationship now. Again, it doesn't guarantee we're gonna have this perfect relationship forever. I'm just saying it's created much more peace within us, and I just think it's a valuable thing to explore.

Angela Duckworth 33:27 So I have never met anybody who was like, "Oh, and then when we first started dating, I was like, 'We're going to therapy.'"

Lewis Howes 33:32 But I went through so much pain, Angela, for 20 years of multiple relationships that were just heart-wrenching for me.

Angela Duckworth 33:40 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 33:40 That didn't work out, that I was like my ability to have grit and pursue and create was diminished because of one situation.

Angela Duckworth 33:48 Right.

Lewis Howes 33:48 Talk about in your book.

Angela Duckworth 33:50 Right.

Lewis Howes 33:50 And the people that we surround ourself with-

Angela Duckworth 33:53 Yeah

Lewis Howes 33:53 ... the mentors, the friends, the coaches, the teachers.

Angela Duckworth 33:56 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 33:57 Those are the environments my, in my mind, that are more important than making sure your space is clean and you're in the right city and things like that. Yes, those are-

Angela Duckworth 34:07 Totally agree

Lewis Howes 34:07 ... yes, those are-

Angela Duckworth 34:08 Those are also elements

Lewis Howes 34:09 Yes, those environments-

Angela Duckworth 34:10 You can also change them, yeah

Lewis Howes 34:10 ... are crucial, but if you are in an emotionally trapped environment with a coach, a mentor, a, a, a friend who's holding you hostage, who's gaslighting you-

Angela Duckworth 34:22 Right

Lewis Howes 34:22 ... that you're pouring into, and you feel like... It is exhausting, and it will suck the life out of you. So I feel like the people situations that you're in-

Angela Duckworth 34:31 Those are the most important you're talking, yeah

Lewis Howes 34:32 ... are the most emotionally important.

Angela Duckworth 34:33 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 34:34 And everything else as well, like stack everything you can, like you talk about in your book, but it's the people that hold you back. And so many people I've interviewed, they're like, "Make sure you choose the person

Lewis Howes 34:44 you marry wisely." Because-

Angela Duckworth 34:45 Really? Has that come up as a theme?

Lewis Howes 34:46 Yeah, because it impacts everything.

Angela Duckworth 34:47 So it's not just venture capitalists. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 34:49 And I asked my th- I asked my therapist this, who works with a lot of, like, very financially successful kind of older men, right?

Angela Duckworth 34:56 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 34:56 Who are maybe in their, like, 50s, 60s, and 70s, right?

Angela Duckworth 34:59 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 35:00 And she has a lot of, like, high-profile clients and things like that, and I'm asking her, you know, after, like, a year and a half or a couple years of doing this, and I was doing individual therapy and then her as, uh, with, uh, couples therapy as well. When I did at this session one point, she was like, "So what do you wanna talk about?" I was like, "Man, I just feel so good." Like, and it was just happening every time.

Angela Duckworth 35:17 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 35:17 I was like, "I don't really have anything to talk about."

Angela Duckworth 35:19 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 35:19 But I go, "How about this? Let's go into the future. Future Lewis, say, you know, everything works out for me, everything I want, and, you know, I accomplish everything, and all my dreams come true, and I'm healthy, I'm happy, all these things. What's gonna be my biggest challenge in 10, 20 years based on the pattern recognition you see with all your clients?"

Angela Duckworth 35:39 You asked her this question.

Lewis Howes 35:40 Yes.

Angela Duckworth 35:40 You asked your therapist this question. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 35:41 I said, "What are, what are your clients coming to you, and what is their biggest challenge?"

Angela Duckworth 35:44 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 35:44 And you say all these men who are very successful that come to her, they have fallen out of grace. They have allowed the temptations of the world To take them out of essentially their situation, their marriage. They've cheated with someone, they've, they've, they've strayed from the family, they've allowed their power, their money, their success-

Angela Duckworth 36:06 Their ego, whatever

Lewis Howes 36:07 ... to get to them. Whatever.

Angela Duckworth 36:09 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 36:09 And they made mistakes that ruined their, their life. So they've ruined their situation that's a good thing for something else maybe more tempting. And then they spend years trying to regain respect from their kids or their, they even-

Angela Duckworth 36:20 Repair

Lewis Howes 36:21 ... they try, eventually try to get back with the wife or whatever it might be, and it's too late. And so she was like, "Just be thinking of that because you're gonna continue to grow, you're gonna continue to succeed."

Angela Duckworth 36:30 Right. And you're gonna be more successful-

Lewis Howes 36:32 [laughs] Right

Angela Duckworth 36:32 ... and the temptations are gonna be greater.

Lewis Howes 36:34 Exactly. So make sure you continue to have a bond where you're staying connected, you're staying present, and you're working on things together.

Angela Duckworth 36:41 Right.

Lewis Howes 36:42 And I think that is the thing where most people fail is like they, they get too successful and then they forget, I guess they forget about who they are, you know? So.

Angela Duckworth 36:52 So look, you know, you could be like, "What's more important, like, the people, places, or things?" I'm like-

Lewis Howes 36:57 Uh-huh

Angela Duckworth 36:57 ... and you wanna argue people, right?

Lewis Howes 36:58 Like first it's people.

Angela Duckworth 36:58 Your relationships, like first and foremost-

Lewis Howes 37:00 Yeah

Angela Duckworth 37:00 ... like is right 'cause they're dragging you down or they're bringing you up. They're, like, helping you remember who you are-

Lewis Howes 37:06 Mm-hmm

Angela Duckworth 37:06 ... or they're distracting you from, like-

Lewis Howes 37:08 Uh

Angela Duckworth 37:08 ... your va- So I think I'll agree with you on that. Like, I hadn't thought about, like, a rank ordering, but, like, if there's one-

Lewis Howes 37:15 And I-

Angela Duckworth 37:15 Yeah

Lewis Howes 37:15 ... and imagine if your husband was not supportive of your career, was just kind of put doubt inside of you like-

Angela Duckworth 37:21 We worked in the same company.

Lewis Howes 37:23 Mm.

Angela Duckworth 37:23 This is how we met. So we were both in graduate school, but we were about to go to McKinsey Consulting and he's very proactive-

Lewis Howes 37:29 Uh-huh

Angela Duckworth 37:29 ... like, like, you know, Boy Scout, class president type. And so he's like, "I'm gonna organize a dinner for all the people who are gonna go work at McKinsey Consulting in New York City." Um-

Lewis Howes 37:38 Smart

Angela Duckworth 37:38 ... I'm a little less like, yeah, it's great and very-

Lewis Howes 37:40 Smart and connected, yeah

Angela Duckworth 37:40 ... you know, that's why you need people to, like, organize your high school reunion. Like, he, he, he's your guy. Um, so he organizes this dinner and I meet him, yeah, fall in love. But, uh, the point is that we both went to McKinsey, and so we were, you know, like, in the same track. And, um, and I wasn't more successful than him, but I will say that-

Lewis Howes 37:59 Just smarter than him. Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 38:01 [laughs] Better-looking. Uh, more charming. Um, uh, I wore shorter skirts, I will say that.

Lewis Howes 38:06 Yeah, that, that, that helps. [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 38:06 I got that feedback in a performance review. They're like, "Yeah, you know, come on."

Lewis Howes 38:09 He liked that, but now you're, yeah.

Angela Duckworth 38:10 Apparently not my engagement manager. But, um, uh, so, so here's the thing. Being a successful person, I think is hard. Um, being a successful woman in a marriage, I think can be hard for the husband. Um, he frequently reminds me that he is the son of a, like his parents divorced, and so he was raised by both his father and his mother, but, like, not at the same time. And his mother, Sharon, is this incredibly strong woman, very ambitious. Um, she became a su- school superintendent. And he frequently reminds me that, like, I, I should be more articulate about this, Lewis, but maybe is it because it's emotional or is it 'cause it's hard to describe? The support that this man gives me-

Lewis Howes 38:47 Mm

Angela Duckworth 38:47 ... like, like, it's not that he tolerates my success. It's not that he is capable of, like, managing his own ego. Um, and by the way, he is successful too, but I think he would point to my success, like, it is true love, right? When it's like, I assume that, like, the greater that Lewis is, like, the more fulfilled Martha-

Lewis Howes 39:10 Mm, yes

Angela Duckworth 39:11 ... herself is. Like, it, it, it is that way on my, you know-

Lewis Howes 39:14 Really

Angela Duckworth 39:14 ... on, on my side of this marriage. Like, I feel like, you know, like, like he might enjoy my success more than I do. Um, uh, I, I think that that's-

Lewis Howes 39:23 Does he speak good words into you on a consistent basis around your project that you're working on?

Angela Duckworth 39:28 I think he is, uh, A, a lot more, um, like he has ballast, you know? I mean, I get, like, very excited about things, like, uh, and he has a steadiness. There's like a, you know, there's like a solidity-

Lewis Howes 39:41 Mm

Angela Duckworth 39:41 ... to Jason Duckworth. Um, I think he also is, like, ethically and morally... Like, I don't know a lot of people, I don't know a lot of people who did what you did at the very beginning of your relationship. But I also can say, I don't know a lot of people, like, like Jason is actively trying to be a better person. Like he-

Lewis Howes 39:58 Mm

Angela Duckworth 39:58 ... actively prays to be a better person. Like he asks-

Lewis Howes 40:02 Wow

Angela Duckworth 40:02 ... the question, like, "Is this the most ethical way?" You know, like we're now in our 50s, like, "Is this the ethical way to be, like, using our money-"

Lewis Howes 40:08 Mm.

Angela Duckworth 40:08 "... using our time?"

Lewis Howes 40:09 Mm.

Angela Duckworth 40:09 So I have this person in my life-

Lewis Howes 40:11 Wow

Angela Duckworth 40:11 ... who has, like, unconditional, um, uh, it's not like in any marriage, like, you know, you're always happy with the other person, but, like, this unconditional commitment, um, and, uh, unconditional support. But then also he's this like, you know, paragon of, like, integrity. Like-

Lewis Howes 40:29 Wow

Angela Duckworth 40:30 ... I am not an immoral person, but I don't think on like, you know, like, I don't wake up in the morning and pray like, "Oh, I wonder if I could be a better person today." I mean, I try to be nice-

Lewis Howes 40:40 Wow

Angela Duckworth 40:40 ... but I think he's-

Lewis Howes 40:40 Right, right, right

Angela Duckworth 40:41 ... another level.

Lewis Howes 40:42 Wow.

Angela Duckworth 40:42 And yeah, think about the r- okay, so like let's assume that Robert Frost is right and our life is a, a road, and we, and you know, sometimes we come to, like, a fork in the road, and we could be with this person or that person. We could go to therapy or not go to therapy. We could stay in our job or not stay in our job. We could move or not move. We'll never know the roads not taken. There's not only one road not taken. There are an uncountable roads not taken. I don't know what the roads are like with a different husband. I don't know what, um, what Angela Duckworth with another relationship would be. But this road that I'm on, I just look back at the road and I'm like, "I could not have come this far."

Lewis Howes 41:19 Wow.

Angela Duckworth 41:19 Like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't even, um, [lips smack] you know, I, I shared with you this, um, you know, my mom, by the way, I think would be okay with, you know, my relaying this anecdote because now she's 91, and I think she looks back and she goes like, "What was I talking about when you were at college graduation?" [laughs] Like-

Lewis Howes 41:34 Grabbing your shoulder and you're-

Angela Duckworth 41:35 Probably not the thing to say, like, you know, "I'm glad you're hap- you know, you, you could be a wife." But I know this road that I've been on, and I know that there's no way I would get this far, and one reason I know is that being raised in that, you know, "Be a good wife, be a good wife"-

Lewis Howes 41:51 Culture, yeah, yeah

Angela Duckworth 41:51 ... you know, like, "Make him happy." Like, literally, I was told at the beginning of my marriage, like my mom, again Not the 91-year-old I have now

Lewis Howes 41:59 Yeah, yeah

Angela Duckworth 41:59 ... but back then she was like, "When he comes home, play some soft music." And like as if he were a lion or something. It's like, "Play some soft music, and like, you know, rub his feet, and like, you know, always have the food ready." And, uh-

Lewis Howes 42:09 Mm-hmm

Angela Duckworth 42:09 ... so I don't think the ambitious Angela that I am today, who's like, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna just go. Like, I'm gonna be as great a psychologist as I can be. I wanna like, I wanna do everything I can." I don't think I would've given myself that permission if I hadn't gotten his support.

Lewis Howes 42:24 Mm.

Angela Duckworth 42:24 So, like, I don't know what the other roads are, but I'm so far down this road, and this road has taken me to places that I would never have dreamed of even, like, allowing myself-

Lewis Howes 42:34 Mm

Angela Duckworth 42:34 ... to want to go.

Lewis Howes 42:35 Wow.

Angela Duckworth 42:35 Right? Because, yeah, like, and we're so happily married. And you know, this ring, so this is the ring I, you know, I got engaged with this ring, right?

Lewis Howes 42:42 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 42:42 And then we got married, we got this ring, and I have a third ring. And after our [laughs] marriage crisis, uh, where a little bit of grit and a lot better situation, like-

Lewis Howes 42:51 And therapy

Angela Duckworth 42:51 ... you know, here we are.

Lewis Howes 42:52 And therapy.

Angela Duckworth 42:53 So much therapy, right? Well, that was part of the better situation, right?

Lewis Howes 42:56 Exactly.

Angela Duckworth 42:56 So, like, um-

Lewis Howes 42:56 You reimagined the new situation.

Angela Duckworth 42:58 Exactly. And like many situational improvements, like, it leads to an even better situ- 'cause, like, now you're-

Lewis Howes 43:04 Mm-hmm

Angela Duckworth 43:04 ... you know, now you're making better decisions across the board. So this third ring is like, you know, the ring to celebrate our second marriage. Like, the-

Lewis Howes 43:12 Wow

Angela Duckworth 43:12 ... sort of, you know, like, we are not just gonna try harder individually or even together to s- Like, we will when we're stuck. I mean, here's a way to know. Like, you asked me in the very beginning, like, do we know, like, on schedule? And I said, "I think we often know too late." But here's a way to know. If you are trying, and then you're trying harder, and then you're trying harder still, and you do not feel like you are making progress in your marriage, in your career, in your friendships, in your health, in anything, you're like, "More effort is not producing more results," I think that is a time you should stop, ask yourself, "Is it the situation? Like, do I need to pivot and put myself in a better situation?"

Lewis Howes 43:54 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 43:54 And then, you know, of course, like, then, then keep trying. I mean, I'll never stop believing in try harder, but that, I think, is a signal, and I think I missed that signal. I was just like, "Oh, [laughs] like, just like keep going."

Lewis Howes 44:05 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 44:05 I mean, that's the problem with a superpower, right? Like, it-

Lewis Howes 44:08 Mm-hmm

Angela Duckworth 44:08 ... like, it's a kryptonite you don't realize.

Lewis Howes 44:10 Let's hypothetically go back and say, you know, you, you stayed in the relationship and it wasn't... M- maybe it got a little bit better, but it wasn't really transforming after therapy, and you guys just cut, "We're just gonna stick this out-

Angela Duckworth 44:21 Mm

Lewis Howes 44:21 ... for the kids," or whatever. Like-

Angela Duckworth 44:23 Yeah

Lewis Howes 44:23 ... "We're just gonna stay in this."

Angela Duckworth 44:24 You're asking me to, like, think through this counterfactual, right?

Lewis Howes 44:26 Yeah. Yeah, just go back.

Angela Duckworth 44:26 Yeah, yeah.

Lewis Howes 44:26 Go back in time.

Angela Duckworth 44:27 Go back in time, but also imagine that-

Lewis Howes 44:28 Yes

Angela Duckworth 44:28 ... like, yeah.

Lewis Howes 44:29 And let's just say the marriage got maybe a little bit better, but it's kind of just, like, running its course, and you're just staying together, and let's say he wasn't encouraging. Maybe he wasn't negative, but he wasn't, like, positively encouraging you and supporting you in projects and books and speeches and, you know, championing you as a partner. Do you think him being neutral or even him putting doubt inside of you with negative words or negative thoughts, would that have hurt your s- your experience in life and, and hurt you from accomplishing what you've accomplished? Do you think you would've been able to overcome that with that type of situation?

Angela Duckworth 45:06 I feel like you, like, literally just described my mother's marriage to my father.

Lewis Howes 45:10 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 45:10 Right? So I know what that looks like, because that was her-

Lewis Howes 45:14 How did he do?

Angela Duckworth 45:14 So, you know, my parents also fell head over heels in love. They were actually fabulously good-looking. Like, I, I watch these, like, old movies of them, and I was like, "Holy, my mother was like a female, uh, you know, like, like a, like she was a goddess."

Lewis Howes 45:29 Wow.

Angela Duckworth 45:29 I mean, she looked like a Chinese Sophia Loren. Um, and my dad actually, to my shock and awe, was, like, actually pretty good-looking too. Um, and you know, he had a big white convertible. I even... They, they had this, like, very, um, head over heels, heels romance, much like Jason and I. Um, but you just described really, I think-

Lewis Howes 45:46 Oh

Angela Duckworth 45:46 ... what, um, what their marriage was like. So my mother immigrated to this country, like, knowing no one, first in her family. She spoke hardly any English. She, she wanted to be an artist, and she thought she could do it, you know, make her dream come true in America, right? The land of opportunity.

Lewis Howes 46:02 So she changed her situation, moved countries.

Angela Duckworth 46:04 She changed her situation, which I think is good.

Lewis Howes 46:06 Step one.

Angela Duckworth 46:06 Step one, yeah. She had situational agency. My mother is a paragon of situational agency. Um, but her s- but her situation wasn't perfect, so she moved from, you know, Taiwan-

Lewis Howes 46:15 Yeah

Angela Duckworth 46:16 ... to the United States. That was a better situation, because, like, as a woman, you can go to art school in the United States.

Lewis Howes 46:21 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 46:21 Like, she went to great art schools here.

Lewis Howes 46:22 But there was challenges 'cause she didn't know the language and other challenges and-

Angela Duckworth 46:25 And she overcame them-

Lewis Howes 46:26 Yeah

Angela Duckworth 46:26 ... 'cause she's also gritty.

Lewis Howes 46:27 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 46:27 Okay, so, um, okay. But in marrying my dad, who went by YK, 'cause he's, is like a very unpronounceable-

Lewis Howes 46:35 Uh-huh

Angela Duckworth 46:35 ... total Chinese name. Let's call him YK, 'cause that's what everyone did. In marrying

Angela Duckworth 46:40 YK, Theresa married into a very traditional marriage, like, a very traditional Chinese marriage. Because though they were in the United States, they were both raised in China in the 1930s.

Lewis Howes 46:50 Wow.

Angela Duckworth 46:50 So not only was she raised to be a good wife, he was raised to m- to marry a good wife, and he, he married her because she was beautiful, but not because she was smart and creative and awesome. Well, awesome maybe, but mostly 'cause she was beautiful and kind, but not 'cause she was, like, a great artist and, like, ambitious and, and smart. 'Cause, like, my mom was every bit as, you know, is as, every bit as smart as my dad was. My dad's now passed. So when you describe this marriage, like, "Angela, go back in time."

Lewis Howes 47:16 Yeah, yeah.

Angela Duckworth 47:17 "Imagine, imagine greatness and the ceiling that... You know, how high would it be if you had a different supporter at home?"

Lewis Howes 47:26 Yes.

Angela Duckworth 47:26 "If you had somebody who was giving you, like, you know, doubts and so forth-

Lewis Howes 47:29 Yes

Angela Duckworth 47:29 ... and was, like, actually resentful." I was like, "I don't have to imagine it, Lewis-

Lewis Howes 47:33 You didn't

Angela Duckworth 47:33 ... because that is the marriage my mother had." So what happened to this, like... And my mom, by the way, was maybe more talented than you and I were. Like, she was a prodigy. Like, I saw the paintings.

Lewis Howes 47:43 Wow.

Angela Duckworth 47:43 She still has them, that she made when she was a teenager, and I really think she had a gift.

Lewis Howes 47:48 Wow.

Angela Duckworth 47:49 So she had a gift and she had grit, and she was in America. Like, what's, you know-

Lewis Howes 47:52 Yeah, yeah

Angela Duckworth 47:52 ... what's wrong? What's wrong was like-

Lewis Howes 47:54 Triumphant. [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 47:55 Well, a trifecta, but I guess there are four things, 'cause, like-

Lewis Howes 47:57 The four for relationship

Angela Duckworth 47:57 ... she didn't have sh- she [laughs] didn't have the marriage.

Lewis Howes 47:59 Right.

Angela Duckworth 48:00 So, so my dad was not mean and not a bad person.

Lewis Howes 48:05 Kinda dismissive or kind of just like...

Angela Duckworth 48:07 Not supportive, right?

Lewis Howes 48:08 Yeah, yeah.

Angela Duckworth 48:09 Like, the, like, um, you know, she-

Lewis Howes 48:10 "Ah, don't do that stuff. You should, must be doing this," or-

Angela Duckworth 48:12 Well, like, uh, you know what? Like, "Let's start a wholesale needlepoint company, um, because it will make money."

Lewis Howes 48:18 Yes.

Angela Duckworth 48:18 And do you, do you actually-

Lewis Howes 48:19 Practical

Angela Duckworth 48:19 ... do you know what needlepoint is?

Lewis Howes 48:21 Needlepoint meaning, what is that?

Angela Duckworth 48:24 Okay, it's a handicraft. It's kind of like-

Lewis Howes 48:25 I, I thought it was like sewing, like a-

Angela Duckworth 48:27 It's a version of sewing

Lewis Howes 48:28 Yeah, yeah, okay.

Angela Duckworth 48:28 You get this canvas.

Lewis Howes 48:30 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 48:30 It's like you-

Lewis Howes 48:31 It's like an artwork needlepoint. Is that what you mean?

Angela Duckworth 48:32 Yeah, like the canvas is usually like-

Lewis Howes 48:34 Yeah

Angela Duckworth 48:34 ... painted with like, I don't know

Lewis Howes 48:35 Yes

Angela Duckworth 48:35 ... like a unicorn or like your dog or something.

Lewis Howes 48:37 Yes.

Angela Duckworth 48:37 Right? Or it could have like a saying, like, you know, like home is where the heart is.

Lewis Howes 48:40 Ah.

Angela Duckworth 48:40 And like it's painted. So you get this white canvas and it's painted, and needlepoint is this-

Lewis Howes 48:45 Like string in there, like a-

Angela Duckworth 48:46 Yeah

Lewis Howes 48:46 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 48:46 So this is like, you know, by the way, this is partly why their, like business idea didn't take off, but anyway, like nobody does needlepoint. So like you, you, like if it's green, you stitch green.

Lewis Howes 48:55 Yes, yes.

Angela Duckworth 48:55 And if it's yellow, you stitch yellow. So my dad's idea like was not necessarily a bad... It's like not evil, but when you are married to somebody, your job is not to make them happy, but your job is to help them realize their dreams, and my dad did not do that. So he wanted my mom to run this business. She wanted... He, like they became small business owners. I mean, he had a career. He was a chemist, but he gave her this assignment-

Lewis Howes 49:22 Project

Angela Duckworth 49:22 ... which is like-

Lewis Howes 49:23 Side hustle where you-

Angela Duckworth 49:24 Uh, yeah, full-time side hustle.

Lewis Howes 49:25 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Angela Duckworth 49:26 So she ran this business, this like needlepoint business where she was like painting dogs on canvas and like, you know, h- home, you know, like whatever. You know, home is where the heart is. Like whatever it is, like unicorns, and then, you know, getting other people to paint them-

Lewis Howes 49:38 Uh-huh

Angela Duckworth 49:38 ... and then selling them to stores, and not doing what she came to this country to do, which is to be a painter herself, like a real painter. And that was their whole marriage until he died, and then he did die, and that is when my mom started painting again.

Lewis Howes 49:52 Come on.

Angela Duckworth 49:52 No, yeah, like true story.

Lewis Howes 49:53 So how many years were they together until he died?

Angela Duckworth 49:55 Over 50. Gosh, I m- I must not have a, like a mind for numbers. I'm like, how many years-

Lewis Howes 49:59 It's okay

Angela Duckworth 49:59 ... was my... Definitely over 50.

Lewis Howes 50:00 So 50 years, so for 50 years-

Angela Duckworth 50:02 50 plus

Lewis Howes 50:03 ... 50 plus years she-

Angela Duckworth 50:03 I've been married 25 plus, it's, yeah

Lewis Howes 50:06 ... she, she did all the hard work to get to this country to like start pursuing it, but then n- none of the negative way or bad way, she was trying to be a great wife and she was trying to show up for what your father wanted, I guess. You know?

Angela Duckworth 50:19 In that situation, if you wanna contend-

Lewis Howes 50:21 Uh-huh

Angela Duckworth 50:21 ... that the most important part of getting situated is like being [laughs] with the right partner-

Lewis Howes 50:25 Yes

Angela Duckworth 50:25 ... uh, he was many things, but supportive about art, he was not. Curious, uh... Like I grew up in that house. We never went to the art museum.

Lewis Howes 50:34 Mm.

Angela Duckworth 50:34 Like there is a beautiful art museum in Philadelphia. It looks like it should be in Greece. It's like, you know, uh, one of the greatest art museums in the world. We never went to the art museum. Like, uh, you know, my mom, you know, like had one painting that I used to, like it had like cherry blossoms, and there was another painting that had boats. There was o- only two paintings in my house. Now that we've talked about this and, you know, life is long and you learn a lot, and now my 91-year-old mother looks back and says like, "I should have said something. I should have done something," I asked her why there weren't more paintings like when we were growing up, and she was like, "Well, you know, I was taking care of your father. He was like my fourth child." And she said, "You know, sometimes I would paint something like, 'cause I would find like a stolen hour on the side, you know, between lunch and dinner, and, uh, and I would put it up on the wall, and nobody would say anything, and especially your father. Like he would walk by a new painting for months and-

Lewis Howes 51:29 Never acknowledge it

Angela Duckworth 51:30 ... not say anything because he didn't notice. [laughs] Like he didn't notice.

Lewis Howes 51:33 Oh.

Angela Duckworth 51:33 So like I don't know Martha, but I already love, like, like that's changed her life.

Lewis Howes 51:37 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 51:37 You know? I, I think that's... Jason's changed my life.

Lewis Howes 51:41 Mm.

Angela Duckworth 51:41 And I think, you know, obviously there are a lot of people who are like, "Sounds great. How do I get one?" Um, but even knowing that like who you are in a certain relationship is like a different you.

Lewis Howes 51:53 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 51:53 Like I'm not the same Angela, so it's not only a poem about like the road not taken. So like, okay, I'm on this road. It's not only like, I mean, like this traveler is not the same traveler because I did take that road.

Lewis Howes 52:03 Yes.

Angela Duckworth 52:03 Like right? And it's changed me.

Lewis Howes 52:05 Support for this podcast is brought to you by Walden University. Ever think, "What if you could go after what you actually want and really make a difference?" You're not alone. For over 50 years, Walden University has helped working adults turn ambition into action. Walden is where students get the W, those big and small wins that move them forward and create the change they want to see in their lives, their careers, and in their communities. With more than 100 online degrees and certificates in fields like nursing, social work, counseling, and psychology, it's never been easier to find a program that matches your goals. And Walden is a partner from your very first class all the way to your career with the tools, the support, and dedicated career coaching you need to win. If you've been waiting for the right moment, this is it. Head to waldenu.edu and take that first step. Walden University, set a course for change. Certified to operate by SHEF. You've had an encouraging, supportive partner throughout this whole time, and-

Angela Duckworth 53:14 Yeah, not a perfect person, but like, uh-

Lewis Howes 53:16 Yeah, but he has been encouraging

Angela Duckworth 53:17 ... tries

Lewis Howes 53:18 ... he hasn't put doubt in your mind, maybe once in a while, but it sounds like consistently he puts, he reinforces positive encouragement-

Angela Duckworth 53:26 Yeah

Lewis Howes 53:26 ... in your mind with supportive energy and cheering you on instead of doubting you or neglecting you, right?

Angela Duckworth 53:32 And, and research shows, right, and this is not like Angela and her marriage and so forth, um, but Angela the professor and psychologist who can tell you what re- So one of the really surprising things about confidence, and I think, you know, what, thousands of podcast episodes, right? Like the theme of confidence,

Angela Duckworth 53:50 of belief, like I believed I could do it, right?

Lewis Howes 53:53 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 53:53 Believing you can do something always precedes doing it. You don't do things you don't believe you can do.

Lewis Howes 53:59 That's true.

Angela Duckworth 53:59 Human beings cannot go against the grain of their own confidence.

Lewis Howes 54:03 Your partner is telling you, "You can't do this."

Angela Duckworth 54:05 Exactly. Okay, so, so-

Lewis Howes 54:06 Exhausting

Angela Duckworth 54:07 ... so I don't know in the marriage context, I'm sure this is true, but, uh, but in other contexts it's, like been shown in research, so much of your belief comes from other people's belief. It's-

Lewis Howes 54:18 It's saying, "I believe in you"

Angela Duckworth 54:19 ... it's borrowed.

Lewis Howes 54:20 Just saying, "Hey, I believe you can do it."

Angela Duckworth 54:21 Yeah, and then like acting that way and so forth.

Lewis Howes 54:24 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 54:24 So like how important is it to have a partner who believes in you, a coach who believes in you, a boss who believes in you, a best friend who believes in you? It's the nature of human nature that our self-confidence comes from other people. So there's, there's this experiment that's called the Pygmalion effect. It's actually appropriately, since we, um, ended up talking about love and marriage and Martha and Jason. So it's not a true story and it's not a research study, but the Pygmalion myth from Greek mythology is that there is a sculptor whose name is Pygmalion. And he carves a statue out of ivory that is so beautiful that he falls in love with it.

Lewis Howes 55:00 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 55:00 Um, and, uh, he so believes that, um, this statue is real, that the goddess of love, Aphrodite, like, sort of looks down on this mortal and takes some pity on him and, and basically brings the statue to life. And the reason why this research study's called the Pygmalion effect is because the idea is that if you truly believe in somebody else, like, it will transform them. It will bring them to life. So the study is that there are these little kids at an elementary school in California, and they're just going through elementary school, and before the beginning of the school year, this Harvard psychologist, um, named Bob Rosenthal, who came to this hypothesis that belief is borrowed, that self-confidence comes from other people, that you need to be in these relationships because who has the belief that they can do something until someone else says they can do it and acts like they can do it? So he randomly assigns these kids to either be labeled as gifted or not, right? And for the gifted group, he goes and he tells their teachers, he's like, "Oh, by the way, here's the list of kids before the school year starts. Uh, I gave them the, like, Harvard test of inflected reasoning." I mean, he made this up.

Lewis Howes 56:09 Right.

Angela Duckworth 56:09 He made up the test. He made up the title, but it sounded very fancy, and he was a Harvard professor. And he said, "And these are your, um, these are your bloomers, and, um, it might not be obvious on day one of school, and it may not be obvious on day 10, but, like, before the end of the school year, you will see that they're, they bloom because they are gifted."

Lewis Howes 56:26 Wow.

Angela Duckworth 56:26 So he gave the teachers the belief in the kids, right, experimentally, and just waited to see what happened, and sure enough, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. The teachers believed that these kids would be great. That gave the kids the confidence that they were great, and even on IQ tests, especially the youngest kids, like, they literally did better-

Lewis Howes 56:48 Wow

Angela Duckworth 56:48 ... by a lot-

Lewis Howes 56:49 Wow

Angela Duckworth 56:50 ... by the end of the year. And so the Pygmalion effect is the, is the reality that our belief, Angela Duckworth's belief in Angela Duckworth, is not just because of Angela Duckworth.

Lewis Howes 57:01 Mm.

Angela Duckworth 57:01 It's because of Jason Duckworth and, you know, like another, like, set of people, but, but it's just evidence that your relationships matter to not only, like, what your opportunities are, but, like, how you think about yourself-

Lewis Howes 57:16 Oh, man

Angela Duckworth 57:16 ... as a person.

Lewis Howes 57:17 Yes, and that's why I think your book is so powerful, Situated, because it's about finding the people and places that bring out your best, and you said people first in the title.

Angela Duckworth 57:26 Good. I guess I could've said-

Lewis Howes 57:27 I'm glad you did that

Angela Duckworth 57:27 ... places and was... Yeah, it takes primacy, right?

Lewis Howes 57:29 But the people-

Angela Duckworth 57:29 It's pole position

Lewis Howes 57:30 ... people, because... And you talk about mentorship and relationships, the relationships we choose to create. Now, obviously, when you're a kid, you can't choose your parents and siblings, but-

Angela Duckworth 57:39 Yeah

Lewis Howes 57:40 ... at some point, hopefully your parents can choose your friends for you early on and start putting you in those relationships and putting you in the right school environment, whatever it might be, to set you up for that success. But when we're adults, if we have the opportunity to choose people specifically that pour into you positive re-encouragement, positive self-belief, it is going to give you so much, a greater advantage than being in, you know, the perfect school and perfect place-

Angela Duckworth 58:09 Right

Lewis Howes 58:09 ... without those people giving that to you.

Angela Duckworth 58:11 Like you like the people part. I, I, I, I couldn't agree more, and Lewis, it's, it's really, like, not like, oh, you'll be 5% more productive. Like, um, you'll be 7% more efficient. Like, if, like, it is.

Lewis Howes 58:26 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 58:26 I think to me the transformative element is that you don't know who you could become. Like-

Lewis Howes 58:31 That's the thing

Angela Duckworth 58:31 ... right? Like-

Lewis Howes 58:32 And your mom.

Angela Duckworth 58:33 Right. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 58:33 Like, who could she have become? Not that she was-

Angela Duckworth 58:35 Who could my mom have become?

Lewis Howes 58:35 Not that she's not great right now, and she raised great kids, and she had a great marriage, but-

Angela Duckworth 58:39 Who could my mother have become?

Lewis Howes 58:41 Who could she become?

Angela Duckworth 58:41 Who could my... Like, what an artist-

Lewis Howes 58:42 And it doesn't mean that she was, could've been a famous... Maybe she could've been famous, but maybe she could've just enjoyed her life more creating the art she had inside of her.

Angela Duckworth 58:51 Yeah. Like, like, like, she will tell you herself that, uh, she asked that question, right? And again, you know, is she sorry that she raised her family?

Lewis Howes 59:00 No.

Angela Duckworth 59:00 Like, did she, did she feel like she had infinite freedom? Like, no, but yeah, no, and, and, um, you'll be happy to know at age 91, I mean, she paints every day. Like-

Lewis Howes 59:08 And how does it make her feel or look or what's her energy like?

Angela Duckworth 59:12 She texted me once, and she said, um, in this text message, like, "When I paint, I have no age." Like, "I forget that I am old."

Lewis Howes 59:21 Wow.

Angela Duckworth 59:21 Right? Um, and she says, like, "Every day I'm good to work to, like, make these dreams come true." Yeah, like, God bless, she's very a healthy 91-year-old, but I think it's just, um... I mean, it really is. It's like, okay, now she's in a situation where, like, there are people... I asked her about her art. Like, growing up I was not part of a situation that was supportive. I never asked Mom, like, "Do you wanna go to the art museum?" Like, "What are you working on?" Like, "Do you like this painting?" Like, now, now I ask her about her art.

Lewis Howes 59:46 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 59:46 I ask her to send pictures of her art. I go to her art studio. Like, I, like, I'm only a tiny part of that situation.

Lewis Howes 59:52 Yes.

Angela Duckworth 59:52 But, but yeah, and I think the, the point that I'm, you know, inadequately expressing is, like, again, it's not about 5% or 7% gains. It's a transformation in, like, in who you are. Like, you're, you are a different person. You are a different person when you're in a different situation.

Lewis Howes 1:00:09 Mm. So true. I've got a, a couple final questions for you. This has been powerful. I didn't even ask you any questions I had here.

Angela Duckworth 1:00:15 I can't believe we talked about my marriage the whole time.

Lewis Howes 1:00:17 I think it's fascinating.

Angela Duckworth 1:00:18 [laughs] It's okay.

Lewis Howes 1:00:19 But I think you le-

Angela Duckworth 1:00:19 It's a very big... It's an important part of my life

Lewis Howes 1:00:20 ... I think you learn so much about a human being based on the people they're with, and I just don't think you would be as happy and healthy and, you know, successful in your career without a great partner supporting you and encouraging you. We talked about off-camera about, you know, early on in your career you thought you might wanna study the placebo. I'm a big fan of the placebo, of like, even if it's not true, if you believe something to be true, it gives you that, that belief, that energy, that confidence.

Angela Duckworth 1:00:50 And that's the self-fulfilling prophecy, right?

Lewis Howes 1:00:52 It is.

Angela Duckworth 1:00:52 Yeah, yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:00:53 And it's like-

Angela Duckworth 1:00:53 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:00:53 ... and it makes you more gritty, and all these things like-

Angela Duckworth 1:00:55 And by the way-

Lewis Howes 1:00:55 ... support each other

Angela Duckworth 1:00:56 ... Pygmalion effect and the placebo effect are highly related.

Lewis Howes 1:00:58 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 1:00:58 They're both about belief, and they're both about the belief preceding the reality, but then creating the reality, right?

Lewis Howes 1:01:05 There's a book out, uh, by Nir Eyal. Do you know him? He wrote a book called Beyond Belief.

Angela Duckworth 1:01:10 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:01:10 It's really interesting.

Angela Duckworth 1:01:11 Wait, the book is Nir Eyal. He's a psychologist, right?

Lewis Howes 1:01:12 Yes, yes.

Angela Duckworth 1:01:12 Like, Israeli?

Lewis Howes 1:01:13 Nir Eyal.

Angela Duckworth 1:01:14 Am I guessing, right?

Lewis Howes 1:01:14 Yes, yes.

Angela Duckworth 1:01:15 Okay, yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:01:15 It's called Beyond Belief.

Angela Duckworth 1:01:16 I haven't read it, but I think I read his previous book.

Lewis Howes 1:01:18 Book is powerful.

Angela Duckworth 1:01:19 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:01:19 I think the previous book was called Hooked,

Lewis Howes 1:01:21 I think it was.

Angela Duckworth 1:01:21 Yes.

Lewis Howes 1:01:21 Yes.

Angela Duckworth 1:01:22 That is the one, uh, yeah, yeah, about distractions-

Lewis Howes 1:01:23 But the-

Angela Duckworth 1:01:23 ... and whatnot. Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:01:23 ... the new one is about belief. You should check it out.

Angela Duckworth 1:01:25 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:01:25 It's called Beyond Belief. And-

Angela Duckworth 1:01:27 Good title

Lewis Howes 1:01:28 ... I believe he was also atheist, I believe before, from what he was talking about, and he said, "In all my research of studying beliefs-

Angela Duckworth 1:01:35 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:01:35 ... and the benefits of belief, I now pray to God, even though I don't necessarily... I didn't grow up thinking about this, but I-

Angela Duckworth 1:01:43 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:01:43 ... and I never prayed before, but prayer makes you happier and healthier and helps you accomplish your goals more."

Angela Duckworth 1:01:49 So I'm going to believe.

Lewis Howes 1:01:50 So I believe it even if I don't know really 100%-

Angela Duckworth 1:01:53 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:01:54 ... there's a, there's a God, like, there-

Angela Duckworth 1:01:55 Yeah, I choose to believe

Lewis Howes 1:01:56 ... I choose to believe based on-

Angela Duckworth 1:01:57 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:01:57 ... the psychological, emotional, and health benefits in my life-

Angela Duckworth 1:02:00 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:02:00 ... to prayer.

Angela Duckworth 1:02:01 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:02:01 And so I pray every day.

Angela Duckworth 1:02:03 So interesting.

Lewis Howes 1:02:04 Because-

Angela Duckworth 1:02:04 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:02:04 ... I believe it's gonna make me better.

Angela Duckworth 1:02:06 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:02:07 And whether... And then when you're talking about your, your husband Jason, how he prays every day-

Angela Duckworth 1:02:11 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:02:11 ... to be better, and how can I have more integrity and make better choices.

Angela Duckworth 1:02:15 You know what? There are lots of books about believing, and I am not saying that, like, like, you shouldn't read that one.

Lewis Howes 1:02:19 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 1:02:19 But I will say mindset, you know, like, you know-

Lewis Howes 1:02:21 Uh-huh

Angela Duckworth 1:02:21 ... like, you... You're, like, there, there are lots of things about what you do in your mind. You pray.

Lewis Howes 1:02:29 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 1:02:29 You meditate. You set goals. Um, I think... I believe in all of it, by the way. Like, I, I, I think there should be a thousand books, a, a million books-

Lewis Howes 1:02:37 Uh-huh

Angela Duckworth 1:02:37 ... right? Because that is a lot of, of changing, like, your behavior to be better than you were yesterday. But I would tell you this. Many people... Let's take prayer as an example.

Lewis Howes 1:02:48 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 1:02:48 Like, why are there churches and mosques and synagogues, right? Like, why are there sacred spaces, right? Like, well, the same reason why there are libraries and restaurants. It's just-

Lewis Howes 1:02:57 And art museums and... Yeah, right

Angela Duckworth 1:02:58 ... and art museums and art studios.

Lewis Howes 1:03:00 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 1:03:00 Right? Like, uh, and I know we've talked a lot about relationships-

Lewis Howes 1:03:03 Mm-hmm

Angela Duckworth 1:03:03 ... as being the most important part of your situation, but just on the side of the, like, the physical-

Lewis Howes 1:03:08 Spaces are important also

Angela Duckworth 1:03:09 ... the spaces matter too.

Lewis Howes 1:03:09 Yes, of course.

Angela Duckworth 1:03:10 Right? I think prayer is easier in certain places. Like, you could pray at Starbucks.

Lewis Howes 1:03:15 Sure.

Angela Duckworth 1:03:16 You know? And maybe some people are really good at praying at Starbucks, but when I go to church-

Lewis Howes 1:03:20 Oh, yeah

Angela Duckworth 1:03:20 ... which I do, um, you know, like, that's a different space, right?

Lewis Howes 1:03:24 More present to it. You're more in-

Angela Duckworth 1:03:26 Uh, you know-

Lewis Howes 1:03:27 ... in the moment. Yeah

Angela Duckworth 1:03:27 ... at least for me, right? So, so again, like, it's a late-

Lewis Howes 1:03:31 Mm-hmm

Angela Duckworth 1:03:31 ... understanding of mine-

Lewis Howes 1:03:33 100%

Angela Duckworth 1:03:33 ... in a way, 'cause I think I was like, "If you just try hard, everything will work out."

Lewis Howes 1:03:36 No.

Angela Duckworth 1:03:36 It's like, no, no, you can just try hard in a great situation. I think that situation should have the people who bring out your best-

Lewis Howes 1:03:43 Yes

Angela Duckworth 1:03:43 ... first and-

Lewis Howes 1:03:44 Yes, yes

Angela Duckworth 1:03:44 ... foremost. I think we agree.

Lewis Howes 1:03:46 And the environment.

Angela Duckworth 1:03:46 Lewis and Angela agree.

Lewis Howes 1:03:47 And the environment.

Angela Duckworth 1:03:48 And the physical environment.

Lewis Howes 1:03:48 Well, you put people first, so you know, that's what I'm-

Angela Duckworth 1:03:50 Yeah, I know, and I'm-

Lewis Howes 1:03:51 ... we're on the same page there

Angela Duckworth 1:03:52 ... I'm with you.

Lewis Howes 1:03:52 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 1:03:52 Like, I'm speaking from the same hymnal.

Lewis Howes 1:03:54 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 1:03:54 But, um, but I think the, I think the physical matter... I mean, when I walked into this place, I was like, "Oh, I love it," right? Like, and I-

Lewis Howes 1:04:01 That's good

Angela Duckworth 1:04:01 ... I think it was-

Lewis Howes 1:04:02 We try to create great experiences.

Angela Duckworth 1:04:03 [laughs] Great vibe, right? Like, details matter, so like-

Lewis Howes 1:04:06 Yeah, yeah

Angela Duckworth 1:04:06 ... do all the details matter the same? No, but I think-

Lewis Howes 1:04:09 Yeah

Angela Duckworth 1:04:09 ... like, once you just open your eyes-

Lewis Howes 1:04:11 Uh-huh

Angela Duckworth 1:04:11 ... like, just look around, right? Like, look around. Who are you with? Where are you? What is within reach?

Lewis Howes 1:04:17 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 1:04:17 Like, what do you see? You know, do you like the billboards in the city that you live in?

Lewis Howes 1:04:22 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 1:04:22 Or do you look at those billboards and you say, like, "What am I doing here?"

Lewis Howes 1:04:25 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 1:04:26 I will tell you, the billboards are different in LA-

Lewis Howes 1:04:28 Oh, they're very different

Angela Duckworth 1:04:28 ... than they are in Philadelphia.

Lewis Howes 1:04:29 They're not as... They're probably not as... They don't make you feel as good probably. [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 1:04:32 Well, have you been to Philadelphia?

Lewis Howes 1:04:34 Oh, I haven't been there a lot of times-

Angela Duckworth 1:04:35 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:04:36 ... so maybe. [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 1:04:37 Um, I know-

Lewis Howes 1:04:37 I know the weather's better here. [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 1:04:38 I think our billboards are 90% about, like-

Lewis Howes 1:04:41 We can see the billboards. You can't see in the rain there, the clouds will... [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 1:04:43 Okay, that's true. Well, that's the other problem. But, um, but in Philadelphia our billboards are more s- mostly, like, um, you know, like, how to, you know, sue people. Like, you know, like-

Lewis Howes 1:04:52 Oh, so like-

Angela Duckworth 1:04:52 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:04:52 ... political or government-

Angela Duckworth 1:04:53 Yeah, what is that called?

Lewis Howes 1:04:54 ... or, like, legal.

Angela Duckworth 1:04:55 Like-

Lewis Howes 1:04:55 Yeah, yeah

Angela Duckworth 1:04:55 ... like, the legal thing where, like, you know, the guy's telling you that, like-

Lewis Howes 1:04:57 There's a lot of those here too, though

Angela Duckworth 1:04:58 ... all of them

Lewis Howes 1:04:58 ... on the highway. They're everywhere, yeah.

Angela Duckworth 1:05:00 Okay, well maybe that-

Lewis Howes 1:05:00 If you get in a crash-

Angela Duckworth 1:05:00 ... made me feel better

Lewis Howes 1:05:01 ... it's all legal stuff

Angela Duckworth 1:05:02 ... I just, like, passed a lot of entertainment ones, so I just thought-

Lewis Howes 1:05:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Angela Duckworth 1:05:04 ... like, very different thing.

Lewis Howes 1:05:04 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 1:05:05 But, um, but yeah, you should just be, I think, be aware of y- before you change your situation, right, 'cause absolutely sh- but I think just being aware, that's probably step one.

Lewis Howes 1:05:13 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 1:05:13 Just, like, notice-

Lewis Howes 1:05:14 Step one.

Angela Duckworth 1:05:15 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:05:15 That's it. Angela, this has been powerful. I got a couple final questions. This question is, uh, something I ask everyone at the

Lewis Howes 1:05:21 end called the Three Truths.

Angela Duckworth 1:05:22 Okay.

Lewis Howes 1:05:22 Hypothetical scenario, you get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day on Earth. You get to accomplish and create everything you want on this road that you're on. Um, but for whatever reason in the hypothetical scenario, you have to take all of your work with you. So this book is gone, Grit is gone, all of your speeches, content, video, all gone from this world.

Angela Duckworth 1:05:41 Everything this podcast. Everything is gone.

Lewis Howes 1:05:42 This podcast gone.

Angela Duckworth 1:05:42 Everything before this moment.

Lewis Howes 1:05:43 Yes. But you get to leave behind three truths, three lessons that you've learned from your experience that you would share with the world, and we get to keep that. What would those three truths be for you?

Angela Duckworth 1:05:55 Number one, effort is the final common path to greatness. Number two, effort pays off more in certain situations than others.

Lewis Howes 1:06:07 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 1:06:08 Number three, you can change your situation for the better.

Lewis Howes 1:06:13 Another hypothetical scenario, if you could go back to the day you graduated, where your mom put her hands on your shoulders and said, "Now you can be a wife."

Angela Duckworth 1:06:20 Now you're

Angela Duckworth 1:06:21 ready to be a wife.

Lewis Howes 1:06:21 Now you're ready to be a wife.

Angela Duckworth 1:06:22 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:06:23 And if you could go back and just, you know, hypothetically time travel, you are who you are now, and you see that girl then on graduation day. And if you were able to send a message to her and speak to her for 30 to 60 seconds-

Angela Duckworth 1:06:38 Hmm

Lewis Howes 1:06:38 ... and you were able to look in the camera and speak to her, what would that message be to her of everything that she's about to go through, and what advice would you give her?

Angela Duckworth 1:06:48 I would say, "Angie, you think of life as a watercolor, and you think that when you brush a stroke of pigment, you can't undo it." But that's not the right metaphor because life is not a watercolor painting where the job is to be perfect, make no mistakes, and that things get ruined unless they don't get ruined. It's an oil painting.

Lewis Howes 1:07:17 Mm.

Angela Duckworth 1:07:18 In an oil painting, you can just, like, throw on a whole nother layer. The thing's, you know... It, it's a, it's a work in progress. Um, when I was 22, I thought I would just try harder and harder, live as perfect a life as I could in every dimension. Um, and when things did go south, um, in any endeavor, um, I did try harder, but in that one crucial decision where I chose the road I chose, that chose, you know, I chose the road with Jason, um, it was a shift from the watercolor metaphor, like, "This marriage must be ruined," uh, to, like, "It's an oil painting, and if we can put ourselves in the right situation, then-

Lewis Howes 1:08:04 Mm

Angela Duckworth 1:08:04 ... we're going to be more than okay."

Lewis Howes 1:08:06 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 1:08:06 And if I hadn't shifted metaphors, I would not have been able to make those adjustments that put us on the road I'm glad I'm on.

Lewis Howes 1:08:17 Yeah. That's beautiful. Well, Angie, I wanna acknowledge you for the book you created, uh, Situated: Find the People and Places That Bring Out Your Best.

Angela Duckworth 1:08:25 [laughs] People First.

Lewis Howes 1:08:27 Uh, People First. Th- for me, this is the book everyone should be reading right now because I, I'm just a big believer proximity is power, and this gives you more tools and more wisdom on how to make sure you're in proximity to the right people and places to support your goals, support your dreams, and ultimately, live a better life, live a happier, more fulfilled life in a world where a lot of people are struggling and stressing. And that's what we try to do here on The School of Greatness is give people those tools. So I wanna acknowledge you for this. I wanna acknowledge you for opening up and talking about your marriage.

Angela Duckworth 1:08:57 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:08:57 I don't know if you thought you'd be doing that here today.

Angela Duckworth 1:08:59 I did not think so. Um-

Lewis Howes 1:09:01 But-

Angela Duckworth 1:09:01 But you know what? I was happy to do it. Can I ask you

Angela Duckworth 1:09:03 a question? I know-

Lewis Howes 1:09:03 Yeah

Angela Duckworth 1:09:03 ... that you often ask your, uh, your interviewees, your guests, like, what their definition of greatness is.

Lewis Howes 1:09:11 Uh-huh.

Angela Duckworth 1:09:12 What's y-

Lewis Howes 1:09:12 Well, that's my next question for you, but-

Angela Duckworth 1:09:13 But can you answer it for me?

Lewis Howes 1:09:14 ... you want me to answer it first?

Angela Duckworth 1:09:14 Like, yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:09:15 For me, it's, uh, discovering your unique talents and gifts that God gave you to pursue your dreams, and in that pursuit, making the maximum impact on the people around you. And earlier in my life, I would have thought greatness is about being the best, being number one and winning, and that's kinda what I thought it was-

Angela Duckworth 1:09:35 Mm

Lewis Howes 1:09:35 ... when I was, like, a teenager or 20s, you know, something. And I realized that, that definition or that belief in my mind got me those results, but left me feeling unhappy 'cause I was making it all about me and what I wanted rather about, you know, we and service. And so then I, as I started to start The School of Greatness-

Angela Duckworth 1:09:58 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:09:58 ... I went through a healing journey and a, uh, and a journey of more self-discovery and wondering why I was feeling this anger and frustration inside of me even though I was accomplishing everything that I wanted.

Angela Duckworth 1:10:09 Right, you were winning.

Lewis Howes 1:10:09 But why am I unhappy? Why am I-

Angela Duckworth 1:10:11 Mm

Lewis Howes 1:10:11 ... why am I in a breakdown relationship? Why, why, wh- what's going on?

Angela Duckworth 1:10:14 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:10:14 And I realized, I was just like, "Oh, that's not the s- secret to a fulfilling life. It's about we. It's about everyone needs to win." It should be about win-win, not win-lose.

Angela Duckworth 1:10:25 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:10:26 And in sports, you know, you're just conditioned, like, win, give your best. Like, get better.

Angela Duckworth 1:10:30 Mm.

Lewis Howes 1:10:30 Improve. And if you're not a winner-

Angela Duckworth 1:10:32 Sports is win-lose

Lewis Howes 1:10:33 ... and if you're not a winner-

Angela Duckworth 1:10:34 I mean-

Lewis Howes 1:10:34 ... you're a loser.

Angela Duckworth 1:10:35 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:10:35 So that framework of sports is a win-lose unless you look at sports differently and say, "Even if I lose, how can I win? Even if I lose, where's the lesson? Where was the growth? Where was the good? What about that moment we had as teammates? Like, what did I learn from my coach? What about that sportsmanship that we created here? Or what about the other team was really negative and nasty, and I responded with my integrity?" You know, whatever it might be, where's the win in the loss? And I just never thought of that when I was growing up. I thought, like, "If we don't win, then I'm a loser. I am a loser."

Angela Duckworth 1:11:09 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:11:10 And I cannot-

Angela Duckworth 1:11:10 Right

Lewis Howes 1:11:10 ... deal with feeling like-

Angela Duckworth 1:11:12 Like a loser

Lewis Howes 1:11:13 ... I am, not I experienced a loss.

Angela Duckworth 1:11:15 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:11:16 It was an identity of I am-

Angela Duckworth 1:11:19 Mm

Lewis Howes 1:11:19 ... instead of, we experienced this loss in this game, but I'm not a loser. And it was like, no, any loss, I am not enough. And so it was more of a, "Oh, this is unsustainable way of living life."

Angela Duckworth 1:11:32 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:11:33 And I believe, like your mom, she had an incredible talent and gift that God or someone gave her-

Angela Duckworth 1:11:41 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:11:41 ... that she was curious about.

Angela Duckworth 1:11:43 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:11:43 She wanted to paint, and she pursued that for a while, and then she had to diminish it for a while. And now she's doing again, and she says she feels ageless.

Angela Duckworth 1:11:53 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:11:54 And it, it doesn't mean she has to be some famous world-class painter that is recognized in the Philadelphia Museum-

Angela Duckworth 1:12:00 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:12:00 ... and makes millions of dollars.

Angela Duckworth 1:12:01 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:12:02 But she feels the most alive she's ever felt, it sounds like, pursuing her gift and talent. And I believe it shouldn't be with only ourselves. It should be shared, our gift and talent, whether that's with a small community, friends, family, the world, whatever it might be. But if we don't share it, then I don't think it's greatness. So it's finding way to dis- to discover our talents and gifts, sharing with others, and making an impact on those people around us with our talents. That's, for me, what it is. But what's your definition of greatness?

Angela Duckworth 1:12:34 I think greatness is being part of and in service to something larger than yourself, and that is also the definition I would give for meaning.

Lewis Howes 1:12:43 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 1:12:44 Um, and the longer explanation is this. I think the psychologist who has influenced me at least as much as any other is Viktor Frankl.

Lewis Howes 1:12:51 Yeah. Man's Search for Meaning.

Angela Duckworth 1:12:53 Man's Search for Meaning.

Lewis Howes 1:12:53 So great. Stimulus and response.

Angela Duckworth 1:12:55 And I think Viktor Frankl is not understood. I think there's a mistake we make when we think-

Lewis Howes 1:13:01 Mm

Angela Duckworth 1:13:01 ... of Viktor Frankl. People are like, "Oh, right, the psychiatrist who survived Auschwitz." Um, uh, that's true. Um, stimulus and response, right? Between stimulus and response, there's a space. In that space we find our freedom. Um, he often quoted Nietzsche, and he would say things about how you cannot always change your situation, but you can change how you respond to the situation.

Lewis Howes 1:13:22 Uh-huh.

Angela Duckworth 1:13:22 And I think that's the lesson that people take from Man's Search for Meaning and then his own-

Lewis Howes 1:13:26 Mm-hmm

Angela Duckworth 1:13:26 ... triumph in adversity, because when you are in a concentration camp, there's very little you can do to change your situation. But if you read Man's Search for Meaning carefully, um, he says two things, uh, that I think are not, um, always understood about Viktor Frankl. Um, one is he says emphatically, "When you can change your situation, you should."

Lewis Howes 1:13:47 [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 1:13:48 "Because not to do so would be foolish and masochistic."

Lewis Howes 1:13:51 Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 1:13:51 Right?

Lewis Howes 1:13:51 Don't stay in a horrible situation.

Angela Duckworth 1:13:52 I mean, maybe you are in a concentration camp, you have zero degrees of freedom. You can't change, like, where this cup is. You can't change what's in the cup. You can't change where your phone is. You can't change whether, you know, you hang out with this person or that person. You have zero freedom. I think Viktor Frankl, when he escaped, um, when he was released from the concentration camps and he came especially to lecture in America, he said, you know, emphatically that you do have freedoms, and so you should consider them responsibly. So that's one mistake we make, that, like, Viktor Frankl did not want us to only think about how we respond to our situation. Viktor Frankl wanted us to be in better situations-

Lewis Howes 1:14:28 Yes, yes

Angela Duckworth 1:14:28 ... and make them better for others. And the second thing I'll say-

Lewis Howes 1:14:31 Maybe him, where he would've put places first over the people. [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 1:14:33 I don't know. Viktor Frankl, I wish... I- I'm not gonna put words in Viktor Frankl's mouth.

Lewis Howes 1:14:37 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Angela Duckworth 1:14:37 He probably would say, "Oh, it's bo-" Um, he'd probably put people first. But Viktor Frankl had a debi- Like, when you talk about what, what you are trying to accomplish in the short time you have on this planet, Lewis, and I think our definitions of greatness overlap, right? It's about pointing towards something that's not you, right?

Lewis Howes 1:14:54 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 1:14:54 Like, greatness isn't self-actualization. It is what Frankl called self-transcendence. So again, I don't know that people, like, got into the nitty-gritty of what Viktor Frankl wrote about for the rest of his life, 'cause he wrote over 30 books.

Lewis Howes 1:15:08 Wow.

Angela Duckworth 1:15:08 Right? Man's Search for Meaning was the first. Um, he had a debate with Abraham Maslow. Abraham Maslow's-

Lewis Howes 1:15:14 Really?

Angela Duckworth 1:15:14 ... higher... Yes.

Lewis Howes 1:15:15 Wow.

Angela Duckworth 1:15:16 They were contemporaries.

Lewis Howes 1:15:18 Huh.

Angela Duckworth 1:15:18 Um, both Jewish. Um, uh, Abraham Maslow born in the Bronx or something, or Brooklyn.

Lewis Howes 1:15:23 Wow.

Angela Duckworth 1:15:23 So, like, did not survive the concentration camps. But they, they sparred, right? They're both great psychologists. The reason why they debated each other is they had a disagreement over what was the highest expression of human existence. In other words-

Lewis Howes 1:15:37 Self-actualization, right?

Angela Duckworth 1:15:38 What is greatness?

Lewis Howes 1:15:39 Yeah, yeah.

Angela Duckworth 1:15:39 Yeah. And in 1943, Maslow wrote a paper with a hierarchy of needs. On the bottom is, like, you know, food and, um-

Lewis Howes 1:15:45 Yeah, yeah, survival and, uh-

Angela Duckworth 1:15:46 ... you know, then safety. Exactly, all the survival needs. And then it's like, and then there's to love and belong.

Lewis Howes 1:15:50 Family and, yeah, yeah.

Angela Duckworth 1:15:50 And then there's esteem. But the top, right, so the, you know, the top... He never drew a pyramid, but the top of this hierarchy was self-actualization, realizing your potential, realizing your gifts and your ambitions. But that was not what you gave. You said in service to others, right?

Lewis Howes 1:16:05 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 1:16:06 Um, so the debate was that Viktor Frankl thought Abraham Maslow had missed the final layer. He, he called it self-transcendence. He said it's not self-actualization. It's to be pointed outward to something greater than yourself, to other people. So I will just say that-

Lewis Howes 1:16:23 Hmm

Angela Duckworth 1:16:23 ... I think a lesson that I would hope people would take from a careful reading of Man's Search for Meaning and Viktor Frankl is that greatness is not self-actualization. It is self-actualization in service of self-transcendence. Uh-

Lewis Howes 1:16:37 I like it

Angela Duckworth 1:16:37 ... and you can either take that lesson or the fact that, like, you know, Viktor Frankl doesn't want you to be a masochist and, like, suffer in a s- in illusion. He doesn't want you to be in a bad marriage. He doesn't want you-

Lewis Howes 1:16:46 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Angela Duckworth 1:16:46 ... to have a toxic, you know, work environment. But, um, but I do think that there's so much wisdom there, and I do believe that there is a space between stimulus and response, and in there, there lies freedom. And I also believe that you can change the stimulus itself.

Lewis Howes 1:17:00 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 1:17:00 Yeah, like marry Martha or Jason. Like, find your Martha. Like, find your Jason.

Lewis Howes 1:17:05 Yes.

Angela Duckworth 1:17:06 Like, be with the people who bring out your best. It will change your life. It will change you.

Lewis Howes 1:17:11 Amen. Amen.

Angela Duckworth 1:17:12 You know?

Lewis Howes 1:17:13 Angela, I appreciate you being here. I wanna ma- make sure people get the book. Situated, it's out right now. And also, hopefully we see you more on Instagram, because I saw some s- sparse content on there, but hopefully you're on there more frequently-

Angela Duckworth 1:17:24 Working on it

Lewis Howes 1:17:24 ... in the future.

Angela Duckworth 1:17:25 We're working on it.

Lewis Howes 1:17:26 So Angela-

Angela Duckworth 1:17:26 I changed that situation.

Lewis Howes 1:17:27 Angela Duckworth.

Angela Duckworth 1:17:27 You're gonna see me more on there, yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:17:28 Yeah. [laughs] Angela Duckworth on Instagram, Duckworth Lab on YouTube as well. And, uh, Angie, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you very much.

Angela Duckworth 1:17:37 Thank you, Lewis. I enjoyed it.

Lewis Howes 1:17:38 Thank you.

1:17:38 I was like, "My God, man." Like, you know, she, she was in a dark place, and I was in a dark place, and we were kinda on our owns in, i- in the same house but living different lives. And I realized at this time in my life she was a great mom, but I was on my own. And that's when the real big change happened for me, so I said, "I wanna join the military."