The Real Reason You Won't Become Wealthy - Until You Do This | Mrs. Dow Jones

Haley Sacks 0:00 Money relationships are basically set by the time you're seven years old. If you're someone who's living with a lot of money shame, yeah, you're responsible for a lot of this, but there's also a lot of forces outside of you that are causing you to feel like this about your finances.

Lewis Howes 0:15 Wow.

Haley Sacks 0:15 And so the best thing that you can do is empower yourself financially so you can make your own money, because that's gonna let you be able to live your own life.

Lewis Howes 0:22 The Wall Street Journal calls her the financial guru millennials listen to, and she's a financial educator and author of the new book, Future Rich Person: The New Rules for Building Wealth. We have the inspiring Haley Sacks

Lewis Howes 0:36 in the house.

Haley Sacks 0:36 We live in an age of frictionless finance, which is very dangerous because people use spending as a form of emotional regulation. Right now, on our phones, it's never been easier to use Apple Pay like Apple Be Paying. Not only that, we are the most advertised-to generation ever.

Lewis Howes 0:52 Crazy, right?

Haley Sacks 0:53 Yeah. Our parents saw 500 ads a day. We see 5,000.

Lewis Howes 0:56 5,000 a day?

Haley Sacks 0:57 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 0:57 Oh my gosh.

Haley Sacks 0:58 It's so aspirational in our culture to spend money, to show off how much money you have, but what about aspiring towards, like, maxing out your Roth IRA, towards negotiating your salary? I wanted it to feel fabulous. So I couldn't find that person.

Lewis Howes 1:12 Mm.

Haley Sacks 1:12 So I became her.

Lewis Howes 1:13 What is the biggest challenge they'll face, and the biggest opportunity they'll have as well in their favor?

Haley Sacks 1:18 So I would say...

Lewis Howes 1:22 What would you say are the three rules to become a future rich person?

Haley Sacks 1:28 So I would say the three rules to become a future rich person, number one, you have to figure out your money mindset.

Lewis Howes 1:36 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 1:37 And that is why the first chapter of the book is simply called Face It, because, you know, I can give you all of the financial advice in the world, but none of it is going to stick. You're never going to make any actual changes if you do not figure out the root of your relationship with money, and then set up systems and have awareness towards acting differently. So that's really the first step.

Lewis Howes 2:04 And something you say around that, you say, "When you lean into your biggest wound, that's where the magic happens."

Haley Sacks 2:10 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 2:10 "And the moment I stopped avoiding my finances and took control, my whole life shifted."

Haley Sacks 2:14 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 2:14 Something you said in the book.

Haley Sacks 2:15 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 2:15 So it's really kind of like this aha moment, then realizing, "I need to create a new mindset around money-

Haley Sacks 2:22 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 2:22 ... and take control of my finances."

Haley Sacks 2:24 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 2:24 Okay, so money mindset's one. What would be the next

Lewis Howes 2:27 rule?

Haley Sacks 2:28 So then the next rule is really understanding how to utilize your action money. So your-

Lewis Howes 2:36 Action money.

Haley Sacks 2:37 Yeah. So I coin this term in the book, and that is the money that you, uh, have left over after your expenses, and, you know, it doesn't matter who you are. You could be, you know, Warren Buffett, or you could be, like, you know, someone re- not Warren Buffett. Most of us aren't. But if you don't have that action money left over that then you can play with-

Lewis Howes 2:59 Mm-hmm

Haley Sacks 2:59 ... to grow wealth with, you're never gonna make progress financially. And so-

Lewis Howes 3:04 So, so you have all your expenses. You calculate that, and then everything left over? Or is this everything left over minus the lattes and going out to dinners, or is this just everything

Lewis Howes 3:14 left over?

Haley Sacks 3:15 Well, you know, I do believe that you need to leave room in your budget for fun-

Lewis Howes 3:22 Yes

Haley Sacks 3:22 ... or your financial life will never be sustainable. Then you're gonna be the person who's rewashing their paper towels and who's... You know, I coin the term in the book also, financial energy, which, uh, you know, we all have a finite amount of energy each day. I mean, I feel like I wake up and I think every day that I'm gonna, like, run a marathon and, like, start a new company, and like-

Lewis Howes 3:45 [laughs]

Haley Sacks 3:45 ... you know, like, donate to every charity and get my whole to-do list done. And then by 4:00 PM I'm like, "Okay, want to get into bed. Can I have a cookie? Like, no one bother me."

Lewis Howes 3:55 Yep.

Haley Sacks 3:56 You know, because you wake up with all the gusto in the world, and it goes away. And I think that a lot- a trap that people fall into with their finances is that they have that burst of energy towards wanting to change, which is so great, and it's something that you should absolutely hold onto and garner, but you have to understand how to put it to work so it will actually move the needle.

Lewis Howes 4:21 Mm.

Haley Sacks 4:21 And so much of the financial information, especially fed to women, is about using that financial energy towards things that don't matter.

Lewis Howes 4:31 Like what?

Haley Sacks 4:32 Like the avocado toast or the latte or, you know, I read something about, "Don't buy pre-chopped vegetables at the store. You should always chop them yourself." What about learning to negotiate?

Lewis Howes 4:45 Mm.

Haley Sacks 4:45 What about, you know, understanding compound interest? What about spending that energy to improve your skills so that then you can put yourself in the position to be paid more?

Lewis Howes 4:55 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 4:55 When you look 10, 20, 30 years down the line, that is what's going to move the needle for you more than that $5, $10, $20 that you saved along the way. That being said, if you are overspending, which many people are, that's something that you have to deal with. We live in an age of frictionless finance-

Lewis Howes 5:14 Mm-hmm

Haley Sacks 5:14 ... which is very dangerous because people use spending as a form of emotional regulation. And right now, on our phones, it's never been easier to use Apple Pay like Apple Be Paying. Not only that-

Lewis Howes 5:25 Mm

Haley Sacks 5:25 ... we are the most advertised-to generation ever.

Lewis Howes 5:29 Crazy, right?

Haley Sacks 5:30 Yeah. Our parents saw 500 ads a day. We see 5,000. So... More, actually.

Lewis Howes 5:35 5,000 a day?

Haley Sacks 5:36 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 5:36 Oh my gosh.

Haley Sacks 5:37 Yeah. So there's all these things that we're told that we need to buy, and it's imp- feels impossible to hold onto your finances, you know?

Lewis Howes 5:45 Yeah. What was the... In the first year after you had your financial aha moment-

Haley Sacks 5:50 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 5:51 ... what was the biggest mistake you made

Lewis Howes 5:54 even though you knew you shouldn't have done it? Like, something you were like, "Okay, I'm gonna do this anyways 'cause I feel like it's an opportunity-

Haley Sacks 6:00 Yes

Lewis Howes 6:00 ... or it's cool or try this out," even though you knew it went against, like, the new rules of money you were learning about?

Haley Sacks 6:05 Oh my God, I have so many, 'cause I'm... Like, that's what I talk about in the book too, is, like, I've made so many mistakes. I'm not that financial expert who, like, you know, w- I feel like people think that in order to be good with money, you have to have like a certain personality type. And I am clear in the book, like I'm the girl who probably is bringing her passport to the bar, 'cause I for- I don't know where my license is.

Lewis Howes 6:24 Mm.

Haley Sacks 6:24 You know? I was on a date last week, my hair caught on fire. Like, it's [laughs] like things like this always happen to me. Like, it's like I'm not, uh, I'm not the girl with the hair washing schedule, and the perfect handwriting, and all these things. And so, you know, in that first year, I still was struggling a lot with wanting to look rich instead of being rich.

Lewis Howes 6:43 Really?

Haley Sacks 6:43 And I still struggle with that, and it's something that I, you know, have learned to devalue in my mind, like designer goods and things like that, but I still get caught in it sometimes.

Lewis Howes 6:54 Sure.

Haley Sacks 6:54 But-

Lewis Howes 6:54 What's the difference between looking rich and being rich?

Haley Sacks 6:58 Looking rich is like when you're, you know, just wearing a ton of designer logos, and you want to stunt and make people think that you have this illusion of wealth. And there's actually, Lewis, influencers who... The New York Times just did an article on all these influencers who teach you how to look rich. So they like tell you to wear, you know, neutral colors and, you know, like to dine a certain way, and all these things. But, and to me, that has to do with learned financial helplessness, because if you feel like the system is out to get you and there's no chance to win, you start looking for cheat codes to get you there faster, and sort of faking rich is the way to do it.

Lewis Howes 7:38 Really?

Haley Sacks 7:39 Yeah. But then when you actually see really rich people, they don't care about that stuff. They're so casual. Um, they, you know, they're driving a Jeep. They've like, they've got like a few hobbies that they really enjoy. They love their family. You know? They're like, they're donating. They're, you know, they have time to themselves.

Lewis Howes 7:58 Mm.

Haley Sacks 7:59 They invest in their health. But they don't care about like, "Oh, this is my Louis Vuitton bag," or whatever. It's really about, uh, buying back your time and health.

Lewis Howes 8:08 Health and time.

Haley Sacks 8:09 Yeah, that's, those are the two biggest assets.

Lewis Howes 8:10 What, what would be like a few key signs of people who are trying to project, project that they're rich versus people that are wealthy, the signs that they have?

Haley Sacks 8:19 Okay. So in that first year, I got a check that I thought was like life-changing, um, that was $30,000. And not only did I buy a Louis Vuitton bag, but I bought one where it has the LV enlarged. So-

Lewis Howes 8:38 Super big.

Haley Sacks 8:38 Yeah, like as though-

Lewis Howes 8:39 Let, let me project.

Haley Sacks 8:40 Yep. Like exactly.

Lewis Howes 8:41 Interesting.

Haley Sacks 8:41 Like, like let's not, just don't just know, okay, low-key Louis Vuitton bag. Like, let's... No, no, it's loud. Like you're not gonna be able to ignore the fact that like this is a designer bag. And by the way, probably fake. Like from eBay, from like a random seller.

Lewis Howes 8:56 Oh, right, right, right.

Haley Sacks 8:57 Like not box fresh. And you know, I could not have given that money over quicker for this item that I thought signaled success, um, and gave me value.

Lewis Howes 9:07 Mm.

Haley Sacks 9:08 And then of course rent came, and it was like, okay, I'm in a bit of a pickle, 'cause I did spend all that money on, you know, the bag. And so that was sort of a, a tough month. But, uh, I keep that bag now as a reminder-

Lewis Howes 9:21 Really?

Haley Sacks 9:21 ... because I think I still will always have that dog in me a little bit of like, you know, falling a bit for the allure of like luxury.

Lewis Howes 9:32 Mm.

Haley Sacks 9:33 But I also know that the gratification of it is so fleeting-

Lewis Howes 9:39 Mm

Haley Sacks 9:39 ... and that I actually get so much more money, value for my money when I spend it on experiences, um, or, you know, on creating my

Haley Sacks 9:47 future more than anything.

Lewis Howes 9:47 I mean, this is not a right or wrong conversation.

Haley Sacks 9:51 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 9:51 I've never been like... I've been more about quality and premium, like buying quality and premium-

Haley Sacks 9:58 Yeah

Lewis Howes 9:58 ... versus which brand is it?

Haley Sacks 10:00 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 10:01 It's more of like is the brand premium, but not is the name known so that I can project. Now, I'm not saying, like, listen, I have a Tesla. There's signaling all around.

Haley Sacks 10:10 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 10:10 I'm wearing a Rolex. Someone gave it to me-

Haley Sacks 10:12 Yeah

Lewis Howes 10:12 ... as a gift, but it's like-

Haley Sacks 10:13 Give it to me. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 10:14 Yeah, exactly. But it's, part of me feels weird when I buy like brand names to show it off. For me, I feel weird about it, even though I, again, I have a nice Tesla, I have a Rolex. It's like I'm not saying I'm better than or something. But I always look for premium. Like I want a premium experiences.

Haley Sacks 10:33 Mm.

Lewis Howes 10:33 I want premium food.

Haley Sacks 10:34 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 10:34 I want quality time.

Haley Sacks 10:36 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 10:36 I want q- qual- premium like travel.

Haley Sacks 10:38 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 10:39 That's what I'm looking for-

Haley Sacks 10:40 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 10:40 ... to create more like comfort, I guess, more like quality, more of that in my life.

Haley Sacks 10:48 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 10:48 And maybe I have a wound against going against brands for some reason. Like I don't know, maybe it's something different there. But when someone only wants brands, and they're like, "I cannot wear anything unless it's designer name," and it's showing it, right, and it's signaling it, what are they saying to the world typically, if that's the case?

Haley Sacks 11:07 Well, to me, this is a form of, of learned financial helplessness, which is when you s- feel like the system is so out to get you and there's no real opportunity to win. And so you start to prioritize things that don't really matter-

Lewis Howes 11:28 Mm-hmm

Haley Sacks 11:28 ... because you're sort of looking for shortcuts and ways out versus actually understanding that there's always still ways to win. You just need to find them. And so this could come as, you know, ignoring your bank statements. Quiet quitting I think is a really good example of learned financial helplessness.

Lewis Howes 11:48 Really?

Haley Sacks 11:49 But yeah. But I, you know, where you sort of just give up. You're like, "Well, you know, I shouldn't have to count on myself." Like the, it's, it's do- you know, the people who are sort of

Haley Sacks 11:57 like, "We're on a spinning rock. The world is burning." Or you know, I see this a lot when I, uh, give projections for investments. So I'll talk a lot about how important it is to start investing early, and if you invest at 25 $200 a month- 8 to 10% return. By the time that you are in your 60s, you will have over $700,000.

Lewis Howes 12:22 Crazy, right?

Haley Sacks 12:23 Which is so cool.

Lewis Howes 12:24 200 bucks a month.

Haley Sacks 12:24 200 bucks a month.

Lewis Howes 12:25 At 25.

Haley Sacks 12:26 Yep.

Lewis Howes 12:26 Amazing.

Haley Sacks 12:27 And if you start at 35, that goes down-

Lewis Howes 12:30 By half at least

Haley Sacks 12:31 ... 200- yep, exactly. But when I say that, there's always people in the comments who are going to say, "Well, $700,000 by the time that I'm in my 60s isn't even gonna matter. Like, you know, inflation is so crazy." And they're not wrong. Since 2000, you know-

Lewis Howes 12:49 Mm-hmm

Haley Sacks 12:49 ... price of living has gone up 67%, wages have increased 7%.

Lewis Howes 12:52 But if you don't invest anything and you have zero at 65, you're screwed.

Haley Sacks 12:56 Exactly.

Lewis Howes 12:56 Then what do you do?

Haley Sacks 12:57 Exactly, but that's learned fi- it's like this financial nihilism where you just count yourself out.

Lewis Howes 13:04 Mm.

Haley Sacks 13:04 Um, and that is something that I really talk about a lot in the book because I think that we see it a lot in young people who then prioritize, like, flexing or, you know, you see it even like people going to Coachella on buy now, pay later, where they're living so much more for the now versus prioritizing their future rich person because they feel like there's no point.

Lewis Howes 13:24 So let's go back to this moment, this aha moment. You made three grand.

Haley Sacks 13:28 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 13:28 You went on eBay. You bought a, a big Louis Vuitton-

Haley Sacks 13:31 Yep [laughs]

Lewis Howes 13:31 ... bag, right? And you still buy designer

Lewis Howes 13:36 brand stuff today, right, I'm assuming?

Haley Sacks 13:38 You know, a lot less.

Lewis Howes 13:39 Uh-huh.

Haley Sacks 13:40 I now do a lot of, uh, luxury resale, so now it's become, like, a savvy hobby of mine where-

Lewis Howes 13:47 Mm

Haley Sacks 13:47 ... I have traveled around the world, and I've gone to Asia, I've gone to Europe to find secondhand luxury goods, and then I'll either keep them or I'll flip them.

Lewis Howes 13:59 Really?

Haley Sacks 13:59 Yes.

Lewis Howes 13:59 Oh, so you make, like, a business out of it.

Haley Sacks 14:00 Yeah, I mean, a little-

Lewis Howes 14:01 You use it for a few months-

Haley Sacks 14:02 Yeah

Lewis Howes 14:02 ... and then you make money.

Haley Sacks 14:02 Exactly.

Lewis Howes 14:03 Oh, that's interesting.

Haley Sacks 14:04 Yeah, yeah.

Lewis Howes 14:04 It's more of an asset.

Haley Sacks 14:05 Yeah. It's an a- I mean, but it's a hobby. It's still... it's not gonna change my life, the money-

Lewis Howes 14:09 Yeah. Yeah

Haley Sacks 14:09 ... that I make on it, but it's become more gamified, but I'm very outspoken against, um, you know, the, the whole, like, Birkin culture online, which I fell for, too.

Lewis Howes 14:20 What's that? I don't even know.

Haley Sacks 14:22 You, you just-

Lewis Howes 14:22 Is it the bag?

Haley Sacks 14:22 Yeah, the Birkin bag from Hermes.

Lewis Howes 14:24 What's the cul- what's the culture about it?

Haley Sacks 14:25 Y- you know, there is so much information out there that, um, is perpetuated that a Birkin is as good of an investment as the S&P 500.

Lewis Howes 14:36 Mm.

Haley Sacks 14:36 And so it sort of tricks women into thinking that, like, you should spend 20 grand on a bag-

Lewis Howes 14:42 Mm

Haley Sacks 14:42 ... and that that's, like, a really good idea because yeah, it's gonna beat the stock market, and you can wear it, and it's, like, gonna make you look rich, but it's also gonna make you rich, and it's like, in actuality, those numbers are not correct. They are completely graded on a curve. Of course, there are some very rare assets that come from Hermes that's, like, the crocodile diamond secret, like, you know-

Lewis Howes 15:04 Yeah, there's like 20 of them in the world.

Haley Sacks 15:05 Yep.

Lewis Howes 15:05 Yeah, yeah.

Haley Sacks 15:05 And those are gonna swing the whole pendulum one way. But for most people, put your money in the stock market. Like, what are you doing? It's... makes no sense.

Lewis Howes 15:15 When should someone buy a 5, 10, or $20,000 bag or luxury item, like brand item?

Haley Sacks 15:23 Well, I think it all comes down, first of all, to figuring out what you really value.

Lewis Howes 15:28 Uh-huh.

Haley Sacks 15:28 Like, you know, for me, I realized that I actually really did like the game of luxury, um, and I was interested in it, and I did look at it as an asset, and it was, like, sort of educational and fun and-

Lewis Howes 15:39 Uh-huh

Haley Sacks 15:39 ... this, like, little chase, and so that's something that I actually really value. But I think that, like, when I started, it was something that I was just buying to sort of keep up with the Joneses because I was a wolf with no clothing, or sh- what do they call it? A sheep with no clothing.

Lewis Howes 15:53 Sure. Sure.

Haley Sacks 15:53 Yeah, yeah. So it was all a facade.

Lewis Howes 15:55 Really?

Haley Sacks 15:56 Yeah, it was a mask of, you know, like, "Don't look too closely over here 'cause there's not much underneath the surface." But when there is stuff beneath the surface, you don't need the mask. That's why you see, like, billionaires in sweatpants, you know? Like, because they're like, "Yeah, I'm good."

Lewis Howes 16:12 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 16:12 Like, "I don't need to flex anymore."

Lewis Howes 16:14 How long were you doing that, like, trying to buy designer brands or whatever until you realized, like, "Oh, maybe I should reevaluate this, why I'm doing this"? Like, how long were you doing that for?

Haley Sacks 16:26 I mean, that bag was a wake-up call for me.

Lewis Howes 16:28 Oh, okay.

Haley Sacks 16:29 Yeah, 'cause I was already on my financial journey at that point, and I was like, "Yeah, there... it's, like, crazy that I have this asset," or not asset even. Like, I have this bag, but it's like I'm struggling to actually pay my rent this month.

Lewis Howes 16:41 That's interesting.

Haley Sacks 16:42 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 16:42 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 16:43 And, like, this makes no sense. Um, and so now-

Lewis Howes 16:46 Or dollars.

Haley Sacks 16:47 Yeah. [laughs] Good. I like that.

Lewis Howes 16:49 [laughs]

Haley Sacks 16:50 You're the comedian now.

Lewis Howes 16:51 [laughs] You know.

Haley Sacks 16:51 But, um, yeah, and so then, you know, I really started to focus on value-based spending.

Lewis Howes 16:58 Ah.

Haley Sacks 16:58 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 16:58 What

Lewis Howes 16:59 is value-based spending?

Haley Sacks 17:00 So it's when you really... 'Cause you can have anything, Lewis, but you can't have everything, and I think so much of financial advice, uh, makes you feel like you have to deprive yourself to get where you wanna go. But in reality, you can actually just implement your dollars towards what you value to live a life that feels, like, so much fuller and, you know, you get so much more out of it. Um, and so, you know, picking a few categories of things that you really like to spend on. Like, for example, I don't really care about coffees. Like, there's a lot of people who I feel like love to have their, like-

Lewis Howes 17:34 Mm-hmm

Haley Sacks 17:34 ... little sweet treat, whatever. That's something that I could cut really easily from my budget. But then there's other things, like I have a dog walker, and that's, like, a really big part of my life that I wouldn't give up-

Lewis Howes 17:47 Yeah

Haley Sacks 17:47 ... because it's like it allows me to work more, and, like, I know that my dog's being taken care of, which helps my mental health, and so it's like, you know, what are those trade-offs-

Lewis Howes 17:55 Mm

Haley Sacks 17:55 ... you know?

Lewis Howes 17:56 Sure. That's great. Then what's, what would you say is the mindset difference between someone who makes money versus someone who's building wealth?

Haley Sacks 18:06 Oh, this is such a great, great question, Lewis, because there's actually a story of someone in the book. It's a real story of this guy named Ronald who was, who's a janitor. And so he never made-

Lewis Howes 18:20 A lot of money

Haley Sacks 18:20 ... he didn't have, yeah, he didn't have a high salary. Um, but he died with $8 million.

Lewis Howes 18:26 Come on.

Haley Sacks 18:27 $8 million.

Lewis Howes 18:28 A janitor his whole life?

Haley Sacks 18:29 Yeah, janitor his whole life, but was... No, he worked as a gas station attendant as well.

Lewis Howes 18:33 Okay.

Haley Sacks 18:34 So it was between... But, like, neither are high-paying jobs.

Lewis Howes 18:37 Wow. Wow.

Haley Sacks 18:38 And then he was able to... He died in Vermont, and he was able to... He donated the money to the library there and to the hospital. He really made a difference, but he lived frugally. So he always had action money, right? And he a- and he also invested in his financial literacy, so he understood index funds and put money away consistently in them, so they were compounding over time, and he was able to then, you know, at the end of his life, see this massive profit. Because we know that, you know, with compound interest, it's like a snowball running down a hill. It gets bigger and bigger and bigger. It builds on itself. Um, and so I think that's such a good example because people think that in order to be rich, you have to have this really high salary, but, like, you... That's not true. You just have to spend less than you make and be putting the difference to work.

Lewis Howes 19:28 With all the... I mean, I could imagine people in their 20s or 30s right now saying, "That sounds nice, that he had $8 million when he died, but he didn't live a full life because he didn't spend any of it."

Haley Sacks 19:38 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 19:39 And since I get 5,000 advertisements a day-

Haley Sacks 19:42 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 19:43 ... and every musical venue and Coachella and, and whatever travel and trip and adventure that's trying to sell me something right now, I'm gonna go live my life to the fullest. So what do you say to someone in their 20s and 30s who's like, "I wanna live my life full now and

Lewis Howes 20:00 not die with a bunch of money in the bank"?

Haley Sacks 20:02 They're the people who are like, "Forget your 401k. I want 401k memories."

Lewis Howes 20:07 Right, right. Exactly.

Haley Sacks 20:08 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, we talked about compound interest, um, and the importance of starting early, and I just think that it's such a missed opportunity, uh, to get your money in the market. But I also understand that right now we are fed so much of people who are living these crazy lives.

Lewis Howes 20:31 Yes.

Haley Sacks 20:31 Like, [laughs] whenever you go online, you're seeing someone who's your age, who's, like, 10 times hotter than you, has, like, 10 times better of a relationship. They're going on 10 times more vacations.

Lewis Howes 20:41 [laughs]

Haley Sacks 20:42 Like, they're just 10X everything, and you're like, "Shoot, like, this, what I'm looking around at, not doing much for me now. Like, this sort of sucks, actually." So then you think, "Okay, let me go buy the thing that they have, because it's going to make me feel like them and give me their life."

Lewis Howes 20:59 Mm.

Haley Sacks 21:00 But that's not how it works. Then you just have that thing, and... but you don't have anything else, and you're actually in debt, which causes you a lot of financial stress.

Lewis Howes 21:10 A lot of stress.

Haley Sacks 21:11 And it just adds to a life that's keeping you really small. Um, and so I think that it's really... That's why the whole first part of Future Rich Person is so much about mindset, because you have to understand those triggers, and you also have to learn emotional regulation, because if you don't, then you're just gonna keep acting impulsively-

Lewis Howes 21:31 Mm

Haley Sacks 21:31 ... trying to keep up with the Joneses.

Lewis Howes 21:33 Yeah. This message is brought to you by Apple and Verizon. And if you scroll enough online, you'll hear it all: miracle diets, fitness trends, crazes like celery juice and cold plunges, you name it. But with iPhone and Apple Watch, you get meaningful insights from a very trusted source, your body, because the information you get should reflect the body you're in. With Apple Watch, you can track things like your sleep quality, your cycle, your cardio fitness, and more. You can then unpack all the information on Apple iPhone on the Health app, which allows you to track and view your data over time. And all these health insights are developed with experts from start to finish. Find out more at apple.com/health. Apple Watch is not a medical device and should not be used as a substitute for professional medical advice. I mean, it seems like a lot of people have shame that they carry

Lewis Howes 22:31 around money. It seems like it.

Haley Sacks 22:33 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 22:33 Why do you think so many people carry shame when they think about money, talk about money, don't talk about money, and what is the process you have for them with the kind of judgment-free finance conversation you share?

Haley Sacks 22:50 I think that shame really comes from when we've, are trying to hide something.

Lewis Howes 22:57 Mm.

Haley Sacks 22:58 Like, when we don't want someone to see us fully, and money is so tied to value. Like, even in the world, like, a dollar can get you something. Like, it's valuable.

Lewis Howes 23:09 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 23:10 Um, and so I think that a lot of us think that however much money we have is how valuable we are.

Lewis Howes 23:18 Mm.

Haley Sacks 23:18 And that's really complicated, because if you don't have that much money, then you're not gonna think that you're valuable, and that's also why I think we see people faking looking rich-

Lewis Howes 23:29 Interesting

Haley Sacks 23:29 ... because that gives perceived value.

Lewis Howes 23:33 They wanna show like they're more valuable than they are.

Haley Sacks 23:35 Exactly.

Lewis Howes 23:35 When someone shows that they're more valuable than they actually are internally, then what happens with that disconnect?

Haley Sacks 23:42 Yeah, well, then you're just living a life that's not truthful.

Lewis Howes 23:46 Mm.

Haley Sacks 23:46 And it's always gonna catch up to you, because you're, you know, living on borrowed money, and that's y- a hedonic treadmill.

Lewis Howes 23:53 Mm.

Haley Sacks 23:53 Like, you know, it's a... Getting out of debt is very hard.

Lewis Howes 23:55 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 23:55 It's not impossible, but it's something you have to really focus on.

Lewis Howes 23:58 It's hard.

Haley Sacks 23:58 Yeah, it is hard. Um, and so yeah, I would say if you're someone who's living with a lot of money shame, first of all, know that it's not your fault. Like, this is never taught, and- Money relationships are basically set by the time you're seven years old. And so depending on how you grew up, like there's a, part of the money mindset part of my book, there's a whole part on blame where I'm like, "Look, yeah, you're responsible for a lot of this, but there's also a lot of forces outside of you that are causing you to feel like this about your finances."

Lewis Howes 24:33 Wow.

Haley Sacks 24:33 So let's, we might not be able to change them, but we can work around them, and doesn't it feel good to name them? Because then you can sort of take some of the impetus off of

Haley Sacks 24:41 yourself.

Lewis Howes 24:41 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 24:42 Um, and-

Lewis Howes 24:43 Did you, did you ever have any blame or frustration around your father for having this knowledge and not passing it down to you?

Haley Sacks 24:49 I mean, yeah, I like still have it with him.

Lewis Howes 24:51 Really?

Haley Sacks 24:51 Like, he's, uh, the amount of work that I do to try and get him to do estate planning and like-

Lewis Howes 24:58 Mm

Haley Sacks 24:58 ... like I'm so obsessed with planning for death, because I [laughs] sorry, but I-

Lewis Howes 25:03 No, that's good

Haley Sacks 25:03 ... you know, like I don't, I know I'm gonna be so upset when my parents pass away. Like, I'm so close to them, it's gonna devastate me.

Lewis Howes 25:10 You're gonna be sad.

Haley Sacks 25:11 I don't wanna-

Lewis Howes 25:11 Irrelevant of money and things and all this stuff-

Haley Sacks 25:13 I don't want-

Lewis Howes 25:13 You're sad. Yeah

Haley Sacks 25:14 ... yeah, like I wanna be able to deal with my grief outside of wondering, oh, do I have access to their bank account? What are, how do I get access to their digital files? Like, you know, where, uh, uh, who's, how do I pay the mortgage? Like, I want to understand these things while everyone is healthy and-

Lewis Howes 25:31 Wow

Haley Sacks 25:31 ... you know, alive.

Lewis Howes 25:32 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 25:32 And there's a lot of, uh, secrecy around it, because-

Lewis Howes 25:35 Really?

Haley Sacks 25:35 ... I think that, yeah. Because I think that he has seen, he works with such high net worth individuals and families, and he's seen how much... You know, Warren Buffett always says, "You should always give a, give a kid so much, enough money that they can do whatever they want, but not enough money that they don't have to do anything." And I think that my dad has seen a lot of kids who got enough money, they didn't have to do anything, and it really depleted their sense of worth, because then they were sort of, you know, helpless. Like, they didn't really have any purpose.

Lewis Howes 26:05 For kids that are born into money-

Haley Sacks 26:07 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 26:07 ... what is the biggest challenge they'll face and the biggest opportunity that they'll have as well in their favor?

Haley Sacks 26:13 I think the biggest challenge that you face is financial literacy. Be-

Lewis Howes 26:19 Really?

Haley Sacks 26:19 I think it's the same for everyone, 'cause it's-

Lewis Howes 26:21 Uh-huh

Haley Sacks 26:21 ... not inher- like I said, it's not inherited.

Lewis Howes 26:23 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 26:23 Um, and so, and also understanding the power of financial independence because, you know, it's such a privilege to be born into anything, and I would, uh, you know, I don't wanna complain at all because, like, that is some- so much better to have that than not. But also, it does keep you stuck. Whenever you don't have control over your finances, it means that people have a say on your decisions and how you live your life, and that you, you know, nothing's free. Even in relationships. Like, if you marry a rich guy 'cause that's what you're solving for, you're gonna pay for it every day.

Lewis Howes 26:59 Mm.

Haley Sacks 26:59 You know? And it's the same in families, where it's like then there's expectations set on you. And so the best thing that you can do is empower yourself financially so you can make your own money, because that's gonna let you be able to live your own life.

Lewis Howes 27:11 Mm.

Haley Sacks 27:12 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 27:13 For, for women who marry for money-

Haley Sacks 27:16 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 27:16 ... intentionally, they know in their mind, "I'm marrying this man because he's got money and he's gonna be able to provide," or whatever it is. What typically happens in those relationships when they marry for the primary reason that they have money? M-

Haley Sacks 27:31 Well, I mean, you get into a s- situation where you're dependent.

Lewis Howes 27:35 Mm.

Haley Sacks 27:36 And you don't have any ability to leave, and it keeps your, you know, keeps your life really small. Like, I, okay, I have a story in the book. It's actually about my best friend. Um, I asked her if I could include it. She said yes. And she was someone who was always solving for a rich guy. Um-

Lewis Howes 27:53 What does that look like? What does that mean?

Haley Sacks 27:54 So when I first met her, she was living in a townhouse in Brooklyn Heights because she was seriously dating this guy who was, like, the heir to a fruit fortune, and she's really ambitious, Lewis.

Lewis Howes 28:07 Okay.

Haley Sacks 28:08 Like, sh- at that

Haley Sacks 28:09 point in her life, she had this job that was, she was like one of the million-milers on United because she was traveling all the time for work. She was just, like, taking off like a rocket ship in her career. Um, and you know, making money-

Lewis Howes 28:21 Yeah

Haley Sacks 28:21 ... providing for herself, but also I think there was some part of her that was, you know, solving for the rich guy. Um, and this guy didn't have that career and wasn't supportive of her grind and her hustle.

Lewis Howes 28:33 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 28:34 And they were not aligned, and it broke off. And you know, he was cheating, the whole thing. And so then the next guy, she started to date another rich guy, and he, I remember she called me and she was like, "Oh my God, we're going fly-fishing." He, it was like one of their first, you know, weekends away. He bought me a full new outfit to go fly-fishing. Tags on, she could see it was like $600.

Lewis Howes 29:00 Dang.

Haley Sacks 29:00 Yeah. And but she was like, "That's such a waste. Like, I might never go fly-fishing again. Like, this is, why would you buy me a new outfit for this th- I could borrow it from, like, the people that we're going with." Like-

Lewis Howes 29:12 He's rich. Oh

Haley Sacks 29:13 ... but it was not her, it was not how she, um, value-

Lewis Howes 29:17 Oh

Haley Sacks 29:17 ... it was, they were not aligned with their values.

Lewis Howes 29:19 Interesting.

Haley Sacks 29:20 That-

Lewis Howes 29:20 She thought it was a waste.

Haley Sacks 29:21 Yeah, she thought it was a waste. He thought it was nice. It was like a throwaway for him, but for her, it was like, "That's real money. Why are you being so wasteful?" The guy that she's with now, who she's engaged to, no generational wealth. Son of a plumber, but picks her up from the airport every time that she flies in, and me too if I'm with her. Uh-

Lewis Howes 29:39 Wow

Haley Sacks 29:39 ... because she, he knows that she doesn't, you know, like spending money on Ubers from the airport. She thinks it's a waste. And their favorite inside joke is making fun of people who Uber home from Trader Joe's, because they're like, "Oh my God, like, why would you, like, go to, you know, get some good deals on food and you're just gonna waste all their savings on an Uber?" Like, they're... And he's really ambitious, too, and, like, really into her hustle, and together they're building something together, but it's not necessarily that they, you know, that he, they came from the same place, but they're going in the same direction.

Lewis Howes 30:11 Uh-huh.

Haley Sacks 30:12 Um, and there's, I think there's something really beautiful in that.

Lewis Howes 30:14 That's cool.

Haley Sacks 30:15 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 30:16 So I wanna go back to what you said. You said your, you still have some issues with your dad, probably-

Haley Sacks 30:20 Yeah. If my dad's gonna watch this episode, he's like, "Cool, I didn't realize you were airing me out."

Lewis Howes 30:24 [laughs] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Haley Sacks 30:24 Yeah. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 30:25 But I'm-

Haley Sacks 30:25 No, he- I love... Right. I'm so close with my dad, I wanna be super clear, but he just is not... He's- he has seen a lot with money and how it affects families, and so he's extremely... Instead of I'm very open-

Lewis Howes 30:36 Oh

Haley Sacks 30:36 ... I love to be open about money.

Lewis Howes 30:37 He's closed.

Haley Sacks 30:38 He's very closed.

Lewis Howes 30:39 Even still today, even with you being more open and learning more.

Haley Sacks 30:41 And having my own... I'm, I mean, I was, I'm a millionaire. Like, I... Yes, I came from money, but, like, give me it. Like, it's like, you know, I made the money.

Lewis Howes 30:48 Yeah, yeah.

Haley Sacks 30:48 Like, that's like I'm fighting. I can do whatever I want. Like, I'm free.

Lewis Howes 30:50 Right.

Haley Sacks 30:50 And so it's like, doesn't matter.

Lewis Howes 30:53 I'm a dad. You know, my-

Haley Sacks 30:54 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 30:54 ... I have twin girls, six months old. What are three things you wish your father, not making him wrong, but what are three things you wish he'd taught you about money growing up that new parents can- can share with their kids?

Haley Sacks 31:07 I love that. So-

Lewis Howes 31:09 Or maybe it's not teaching, maybe it's a way of being. Maybe it's, like, three habits. I don't know.

Haley Sacks 31:13 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 31:13 Three things that we can do.

Haley Sacks 31:15 I love that. Yeah. So I would say, number one, to really think about how you talk about money, uh, because kids really pick up on that.

Lewis Howes 31:26 How should you talk? I mean, is it about the words you use, the energy you have around your conversations? What do you mean?

Haley Sacks 31:32 I think it's important to make sure that you don't speak from a place of scarcity, but you speak from a place of value. So-

Lewis Howes 31:39 What is the difference between scarcity and value?

Haley Sacks 31:41 So, okay, for example, say you're at the store and your child wants to, uh, you know, get a, a, a toy, and you say, uh, "We can't afford that." That's very different than saying, "We're saving towards something else. Like, we have this other goal that we're working towards, so that doesn't align with our spending right now." 'Cause then it shows them that, like, you're working towards something else.

Lewis Howes 32:10 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 32:10 You're value-driven, versus making them feel like there's not enough.

Lewis Howes 32:14 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 32:14 You know? So just thinking through, you know, how you are talking about money, and making sure that you aren't making your child feel like there is not enough, but rather that, like, you're all working together-

Lewis Howes 32:29 Mm-hmm

Haley Sacks 32:29 ... towards something bigger.

Lewis Howes 32:31 Okay. That's-

Haley Sacks 32:31 Towards shared goals.

Lewis Howes 32:32 That's the one thing. What's the second thing you wish your dad or parents should share with their kids?

Haley Sacks 32:38 You know, I think that you should put a dollar amount on chores, and, like, help around the house so that children have their own money to manage. I wish that I had had that when I was younger so much, because I talk about this in the book, like my first financial memory [laughs] of literally just wanting, like, a snack at school, but I didn't have any money. Like, I didn't have a job, and I didn't have an allowance, and so I would sort of, like, sheepishly... There was this, uh, plastic container above the washing machine that had, like, some spare dollar bills.

Lewis Howes 33:13 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 33:13 Maybe I'd find a five if I was lucky, and I would, you know, grab it and go, and it was y- always sort of secretive, um, and, you know, weird. And-

Lewis Howes 33:22 You felt a little shame around it. Yeah

Haley Sacks 33:23 ... shameful. I don't know how to get this any other way. I'm looking outside of myself.

Lewis Howes 33:28 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 33:28 But also, like, you know, it just felt sort of dirty. Um, but I wish that... But I was always, you know, helpful around

Haley Sacks 33:36 the house, w- dishwasher, like, you know, perfect report from the babysitter, the whole thing. So I wish that they had instead been like, "Great, you did, you did the dishes every night this week. Here's, you know, $5," and then I could decide what to do with that.

Lewis Howes 33:50 Yeah. Did you ever ask your parents for money, or were you like, "Hey, can I have $5?" or things-

Haley Sacks 33:54 No, I didn't even ask them for money. It was, like, so weird. It was sort of, like, sneaking around.

Lewis Howes 33:59 Hmm.

Haley Sacks 33:59 And then I saw that play out later in my life, where, you know, I felt like I couldn't really rely on myself for money because no one had really, like, empowered me in that way. It was... And so I was, you know, looking outside of myself for ways to get it versus just being like, "I'm smart enough to do this."

Lewis Howes 34:17 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 34:17 "I can absolutely earn my own way, and, like, let me just go for it."

Lewis Howes 34:21 Sure.

Haley Sacks 34:22 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 34:23 Okay.

Haley Sacks 34:24 And then number-

Lewis Howes 34:24 So put a dollar amount on chores or, like, stuff around the house.

Haley Sacks 34:27 Just give them some money to-

Lewis Howes 34:28 Yeah

Haley Sacks 34:28 ... to manage, I think is really helpful.

Lewis Howes 34:30 Mm-hmm. Okay. The third thing.

Haley Sacks 34:32 Um, and then number three, I would say to e- explain taxes to them through taxing that allowance. But then use it-

Lewis Howes 34:43 Mm-hmm

Haley Sacks 34:43 ... towards, uh, like, your family as a, as a government or, like, as a state.

Lewis Howes 34:48 Hmm.

Haley Sacks 34:49 So okay, you're getting, you know, $10 in allowance, but, you know, taxes are 30%, so it's really gonna be $7. And then, you know, say you have three kids. That's $9 in the pot from the, quote-unquote-

Lewis Howes 35:02 Mm-hmm

Haley Sacks 35:02 ... taxes. And then having a family meeting and deciding, "Okay, h- how do we wanna use this? Are we saving towards a trampoline? Do we wanna go to Disney World?" Um, and, like, putting it towards something bigger that you guys are all working towards.

Lewis Howes 35:16 Hmm.

Haley Sacks 35:16 But I think that that's, like, a really great teachable moment, because so many people are never taught how taxes work, and they're the biggest [laughs] expense that we'll ever pay.

Lewis Howes 35:23 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 35:24 And they're something that you have to get used to. Um, and so I think that you can, like, start teaching that so early on.

Lewis Howes 35:30 I love that idea, and I also like the idea of, like, making it around service. Like-

Haley Sacks 35:34 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 35:34 ... that tax, we have to give away.

Haley Sacks 35:36 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 35:37 Whether it's to our church or to a charity-

Haley Sacks 35:38 Yeah

Lewis Howes 35:39 ... or to whatever, like, we don't keep that.

Haley Sacks 35:40 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 35:40 You don't get, you don't get the tax money you have to give away to the government.

Haley Sacks 35:44 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 35:44 But let's use this for good that we wanna do.

Haley Sacks 35:46 Yeah, in our community.

Lewis Howes 35:47 And maybe you don't, maybe you don't like what the government does, 'cause you don't know what they're doing with your money.

Haley Sacks 35:50 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 35:51 But you can't get around it, but this money, we can do good with it.

Haley Sacks 35:54 I love that. Yep.

Lewis Howes 35:55 So I think that'd be interesting. Instead of, like... I mean, for me-

Haley Sacks 35:58 A trampoline. No trampoline

Lewis Howes 35:59 ... yeah, or something like that. It's like-

Haley Sacks 36:00 Yeah, yeah. The church

Lewis Howes 36:00 ... use the money for the trampoline-

Haley Sacks 36:01 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Lewis Howes 36:01 ... that you have.

Haley Sacks 36:02 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 36:03 But the taxes, use it towards church or something else, you know, whatever it might be. Giving that to someone else.

Haley Sacks 36:09 I love that.

Lewis Howes 36:09 I think that could be good, 'cause then you're instilling service mindset as well-

Haley Sacks 36:13 Yeah

Lewis Howes 36:14 ... as learning to pay taxes. That's interesting. I've never seen that, that tax thing before. That's cool. What is the greatest money advice your dad has taught you, whether through his behavior or actions or lack thereof?

Haley Sacks 36:28 You know, my dad is successful, but he's really low-key and really generous. So, like, he g- gives away so much money, but also, like, has, like, drives an old Jeep, wears Hokas every day-

Lewis Howes 36:43 Mm-hmm

Haley Sacks 36:43 ... with, like, just, like, ah, some sort of w- down vest and, like, you know, he's very unassuming. Um, and I love that about him. And I thi- and it's cr- I always say, like, "Dad, do you think it's crazy that you have a daughter who has, like, this, like, luxury disease?"

Lewis Howes 36:59 [laughs] .

Haley Sacks 37:00 So then I'm like, how did I get this mental illness [laughs] of, like, why do I... W- why... Like, I've had to rework my brain so much from, like, you know, wanting to look rich versus being rich. And he's like, "No, you know, I think it's a lot about your upbringing and whatever." And so he understands, but-

Lewis Howes 37:14 Interesting

Haley Sacks 37:15 ... it's like he doesn't have it at all. He's so... He would give the shirt off of his back. Like, he's so humble. Um, and so I think that's been something-

Lewis Howes 37:23 Wow

Haley Sacks 37:23 ... that I've learned from him that's amazing. But then, you know, also just compound interest and how simple it is to grow wealth. Like, I, you know, now have, uh, my own investment portfolio.

Haley Sacks 37:34 Of course, I'm very passionate about investing, and I talk to him about it. And what's so crazy is that what I'm investing in and what I tell my audience to invest in, these low-cost index funds, they're the same vehicles that the billionaires are putting their money into. Like, it's not like you need some-

Lewis Howes 37:49 Yeah

Haley Sacks 37:49 ... secret cheat sheet or whatever. I always say you should want an above average relationship, above average life, above average travels, experiences, food, sex, whatever it is.

Lewis Howes 38:02 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 38:03 But you want your investment returns to be average.

Lewis Howes 38:08 Mm.

Haley Sacks 38:08 Do not chase getting rich quick.

Lewis Howes 38:11 Why?

Haley Sacks 38:12 Because it'll never work out for you. It's too risky.

Lewis Howes 38:14 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 38:16 Slow and steady wins the race.

Lewis Howes 38:17 That's it.

Haley Sacks 38:18 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 38:18 How long have you been investing for?

Haley Sacks 38:21 I wish I had started earlier, but I started-

Lewis Howes 38:23 [laughs]

Haley Sacks 38:23 ... probably when I was, like, 27.

Lewis Howes 38:26 Okay.

Haley Sacks 38:26 Uh, 'cause yeah, my aha money moment was around the time I was, like, 25.

Lewis Howes 38:31 Wow.

Haley Sacks 38:31 And then it took me about, like, a year to really get a handle on my spending and also to, uh, build my emergency fund, which-

Lewis Howes 38:40 Were you in debt back then?

Haley Sacks 38:42 I wasn't in debt, but I was in, like, family debt. You know what I mean?

Lewis Howes 38:45 Ah.

Haley Sacks 38:45 Like, I wasn't living a free life.

Lewis Howes 38:46 Sure. Ah, okay.

Haley Sacks 38:47 Uh, but I was like, you know-

Lewis Howes 38:48 What does that mean, being in family debt?

Haley Sacks 38:50 Well, you know, like, my, my apartment at that time was maybe, like, $1,500 and, you know, I think my parents paid for half of it.

Lewis Howes 38:55 Uh-huh.

Haley Sacks 38:56 So

Haley Sacks 38:57 it was-

Lewis Howes 38:57 Subsidized.

Haley Sacks 38:58 Yeah, it was subsidized. Um-

Lewis Howes 39:00 And there's strings attached.

Haley Sacks 39:01 So many strings attached.

Lewis Howes 39:02 What are the, what are the strings attached to being an adult who's still an adult, over 21, out of college, who's still getting funding through their parents?

Haley Sacks 39:13 Okay. So there's a story in the book about this, of this girl who is marrying someone who has money. She didn't come from money. And the mother-in-law takes control of the wedding and, uh-

Lewis Howes 39:31 Mm

Haley Sacks 39:31 ... and is, like, thinks that she's being so generous and wants to thr- uh, starts to throw this, like, huge $500,000 wedding.

Lewis Howes 39:39 Oh my gosh.

Haley Sacks 39:39 Crazy. And the bride is left totally just, like, sort of in the corner, 'cause it becomes the mother-in-law's show where-

Lewis Howes 39:48 It's not the bride's wedding anymore.

Haley Sacks 39:49 It's not the bride's wedding anymore.

Lewis Howes 39:50 No.

Haley Sacks 39:50 Exactly. It's-

Lewis Howes 39:51 You're, you're a, you're a doll.

Haley Sacks 39:53 Yeah, you're a-

Lewis Howes 39:53 It's not your wedding.

Haley Sacks 39:54 No, it's not your wedding at all. Exactly. The, you know, and the mother-in-law had a better dress and she... It was all her friends coming.

Lewis Howes 40:01 Mm.

Haley Sacks 40:01 And it was like, you know, this woman wondering, "What can I do? Like, this is, you know, like, this is not the wedding that I want. Should I push to, you know, have the wedding that I want and, you know, like, look a gift horse in the mouth? Or should I just go along with it?" And I thought that it was such an interesting moment because, you know, she would of course be silly to, like, you know, say no to something so generous. But in the same way, what's gonna happen after the wedding?

Lewis Howes 40:33 Mm.

Haley Sacks 40:33 The mom, the mother-in-law is then going to say, "Hey, bought you a house, but it's right next door to me-

Lewis Howes 40:38 Mm

Haley Sacks 40:38 ... so I get to come whenever you want, uh, whenever I want, to see the baby." Or, you know, "Oh, hey, like, I would love to pay for your children's school, but they have to go to this school." And, like, maybe it's a religious school. Maybe that's not, like, the religion that you want. Or, you know, like, there's just... It always comes with s- rules attached. And that's why financial independence and freedom is so important, because it gives you the paintbrush to, you know, build your own life-

Lewis Howes 41:02 Wow

Haley Sacks 41:03 ... versus having to, like, live in someone else's.

Lewis Howes 41:06 How did that f- I mean, it must also be nice to be like, "Oh, my dad's helping me pay for rent and, you know, I'm, I'm going after my dreams in New York City. It's expensive here." Isn't that also, like, a generous thing?

Haley Sacks 41:17 Oh my God, it was so generous. It was so kind. And I also think that, like, there's, you know, I, I... One of... I teach pe- there's a whole chapter in the book about rich kids. Like, I think that it's such a gift to give your kids this financial stability, and it's such a leg up.

Lewis Howes 41:31 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 41:31 Like, I would be, you know, an asshole to complain about it. Like, I understand that completely and I, you know, am so grateful to them. And I... It's more just the lack of financial literacy that I think was really harmful because it kept me in a place where I was always looking outside of myself versus-

Lewis Howes 41:52 Dependent on something else.

Haley Sacks 41:53 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that... And then when I started to be dependent on myself, that's when, like, my life really became so amazing.

Lewis Howes 42:00 Mm. There's nothing that frustrates me more than when things don't move with speed. And when it comes to building a strong daily routine for your life, the tools that you rely on at home should make things run more smoothly without interruptions, and that's the thinking behind T-Mobile's 5G Home Internet. And big news, T-Mobile now has the fastest 5G home internet according to the experts at Ookla Speedtest. Setup is so quick and simple, no technician needed, and you're online in 15 minutes or less. And the price comes with a five-year price guarantee, so you don't have to worry about unexpected price hikes down the road. And when I'm working from home, my internet does a lot of the heavy lifting. It's prepping for the next show on the School of Greatness, uploading files. I'm doing Zoom calls, I'm doing meetings. All these different things are all happening, and I need them to happen fast. And with T-Mobile 5G Home Internet, things move fast and stay smooth. Pages load quickly, files upload successfully, and I can stay focused without constant interruptions. It makes a big difference. Visit t-mobile.com/homeinternet to check availability today. Price guarantee exclusions like taxes and fees apply. Fastest based on Ookla Speedtest Intelligence data, second half of 2025. All rights reserved. What is the greatest skill someone can learn

Lewis Howes 43:27 to be able to develop more money themselves?

Haley Sacks 43:30 I mean, look at you with the cat. It's m- it's that self-belief.

Lewis Howes 43:33 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 43:34 It's switching your mindset to thinking, "Okay, like no, I am a future rich person. I can do this."

Lewis Howes 43:40 Mm.

Haley Sacks 43:40 Um, but then of course you do need the tactical tools. Like you need to understand how the stock market works, how taxes work-

Lewis Howes 43:48 Yeah

Haley Sacks 43:48 ... how to negotiate, how to, you know... S- I have a whole part in the book about setting up, uh, businesses, 'cause it's like, you know, we're, my- millennials and Gen Z are the biggest generations of entrepreneurs, but guess what else isn't taught in school besides budgeting and taxes? How to set up a corporate entity, how to, you know, invest for retirement when you don't have a 401 [k] from a corporate job.

Lewis Howes 44:10 Mm.

Haley Sacks 44:10 So it's like really important to get this financial literacy out there so that people can succeed.

Lewis Howes 44:15 Yeah. And what, um, what are three things that a lot of people do that will never make them rich?

Haley Sacks 44:26 Such an interesting question, 'cause I feel like it's sort of different for each person.

Lewis Howes 44:31 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 44:31 But definitely, I mean, it starts with spending beyond your means.

Lewis Howes 44:35 Okay.

Haley Sacks 44:35 That's number one. Uh, s- when you have sunk cost fallacy around your career.

Lewis Howes 44:41 What does that mean?

Haley Sacks 44:42 So you're in a job that's maybe not giving you, you know, 10 to 20% increase in salary every two to three years, which is really important. Um, and so but you've been there for so long that you feel like, "Okay, I should just stay here because like one day it's magically gonna happen." So much better to cut your losses.

Lewis Howes 45:03 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 45:04 Um, and then not investing. Investing is the key to growing wealth, and it's not complicated. But it's something that everyone really has to do if they want financial freedom.

Lewis Howes 45:14 Uh, what's the percentage of people in their 20s that you think is investing? Do you know?

Haley Sacks 45:19 Well, I do know that Gen Z, uh, I- has the most contributions to their 401 [k] s than any generation.

Lewis Howes 45:26 Really?

Haley Sacks 45:27 So it is interesting to see the impact of social media on financial literacy-

Lewis Howes 45:31 Mm-hmm

Haley Sacks 45:31 ... because I think that it is becoming so much more normalized to be good with money.

Lewis Howes 45:35 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 45:36 To take control of your finances.

Lewis Howes 45:37 And promoting it more to this younger generation.

Haley Sacks 45:40 Yeah, 100%.

Lewis Howes 45:41 Yeah. Yeah.

Haley Sacks 45:41 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 45:42 That's interesting. What would you say is your biggest money wound today after being a millionaire?

Haley Sacks 45:48 My biggest money wound is wanting more versus having enough.

Lewis Howes 45:54 Oh.

Haley Sacks 45:55 Um-

Lewis Howes 45:55 Tell me more

Haley Sacks 45:56 ... look, like I'm- I love money. I'm all about abundance, and I also, you know, it's such an amazing tool to be able to make a difference in the world. Like you talk a lot about service, like that's so important to me too. Um, but I think my biggest money wound is like I was searching

Haley Sacks 46:13 so much for financial freedom, and I put it on this huge pedestal. And so I've worked relentlessly the last like eight to 10 years to get to this point where now like I do, I am a millionaire. Like I have, you know, money in the bank and invested and, you know, I'm in a good position. But now I am really interested in building out the other parts of my life, so because I think that you can ha- it's very simple sort of to have a lot of one thing, right? But it's a lot harder to have some of many things.

Lewis Howes 46:42 Mm.

Haley Sacks 46:42 And so for me, I really put balance on a pedestal, and like, you know, people-

Lewis Howes 46:46 Now you do.

Haley Sacks 46:47 Yeah, because I'm like, okay, if I could have career, health, and relationships and spirituality-

Lewis Howes 46:55 Mm-hmm

Haley Sacks 46:55 ... then that would be really sick, you know? But I had to get the-

Lewis Howes 46:59 In a good way

Haley Sacks 46:59 ... yeah, it'd be sick in a good way.

Lewis Howes 47:00 Yeah. [laughs]

Haley Sacks 47:00 But like, you know, the, I had to start with the money wound.

Lewis Howes 47:04 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 47:04 And now I'm working on building out everything else.

Lewis Howes 47:06 Interesting.

Haley Sacks 47:07 You know? And it takes time.

Lewis Howes 47:08 Yeah. Yeah, the money wound would, gave you a sense of financial independence-

Haley Sacks 47:11 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 47:12 ... financial freedom-

Haley Sacks 47:13 Yeah

Lewis Howes 47:13 ... not being dependent on parents or outside forces, and so you've taken control of that. But what I'm hearing you say is you haven't gotten the other things.

Haley Sacks 47:21 No, and I'm looking for them.

Lewis Howes 47:22 Hold on.

Haley Sacks 47:22 Like now I'm focused so much more on them. Um-

Lewis Howes 47:24 What's the main thing missing in your life right now?

Haley Sacks 47:26 Oh, I mean, I wanna have, I wanna get married and have kids. That's the biggest thing.

Lewis Howes 47:31 Why?

Haley Sacks 47:32 Um, just bec- I mean, my parents have like an amazing partnership, and I think that when you're in the right relationship, we were talking about this before we started filming, that like when you're able to find the right partner, it really can be like one plus one equals three, you know? And I, you know, I have a beautiful life on my own, um, that I love, but I am, you know, I really do wanna be a mom, and I don't... I think that that's something that I'd really love to do with someone else.

Lewis Howes 47:58 Right.

Haley Sacks 47:58 So yeah.

Lewis Howes 47:58 Not alone, yeah.

Haley Sacks 47:59 But I'm not, uh, impatient, so I won't, I wouldn't do it impulsively or like with the wrong person.

Lewis Howes 48:06 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 48:06 And that's why, you know, money is also so amazing because because of my financial independence, I've been able to freeze my eggs-

Lewis Howes 48:12 Mm

Haley Sacks 48:12 ... which then has bought me so much, uh-

Lewis Howes 48:14 Time

Haley Sacks 48:15 ... time and, you know, choice. I don't have to rush. Women used to basically have to belong to a man to have any upward mobility. Like we couldn't have credit cards till 1974 on our own.

Lewis Howes 48:24 Wow.

Haley Sacks 48:25 So you couldn't, we couldn't take out business loans till 1988. Like so it's, you know, it's very new for us to have this freedom, and I take it really seriously-

Lewis Howes 48:33 Yeah

Haley Sacks 48:33 ... to use it to actually carve a life that like my grandma would be jealous of, you know?

Lewis Howes 48:40 When do you think you will know you're ready for the right relationship? What needs to happen for you to say, "Okay, I'm gonna commit and go down the path of, you know, being together, getting engaged, getting married"?

Haley Sacks 48:51 I think it is meeting the right person. Like, I've done a lot of work on myself, um, and so I think that it's just about building trust with the right person.

Lewis Howes 48:59 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 49:00 Um, and then making sure that we have the same financial values, family values, um, you know, spiritual values, all of these, sexual values. Like, that-

Lewis Howes 49:09 Yeah

Haley Sacks 49:09 ... we're aligned on all of these other, uh, planes is so important. But I'm also, like, you know, I was with a friend yesterday who has been married for, like, 10 years, and her husband is a different man than when I met him because they have grown so much together.

Lewis Howes 49:28 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 49:28 He is now, like, Yossified. Like, he's, like, awesome version of himself. I'm like, "Go off, King." Like, "You're killing it."

Lewis Howes 49:34 [laughs]

Haley Sacks 49:34 You know? Like, I'm so happy for them.

Lewis Howes 49:35 That's cool.

Haley Sacks 49:36 They have two kids. Yeah, and so I think it's also about really seeing the potential with someone too. It's not like someone has to come in so perfectly, but it's about like, okay, is this someone that's gonna make me better, that I can make better, that we can build with?

Lewis Howes 49:46 Hmm. That's cool. I'm curious what you think, in order for someone to increase their net worth, what needs to change within their self-worth so that they can receive more money and feel peaceful around that money?

Haley Sacks 50:04 So in the book, I have, uh, my five-step money mindset program called IBIZA, which unfortunately it doesn't mean that I give you a ticket to Spain-

Lewis Howes 50:13 [laughs]

Haley Sacks 50:13 ... although maybe I'll see you there.

Lewis Howes 50:15 Uh-huh.

Haley Sacks 50:16 Um, and each of the letters in IBIZA stands for a step. And so, uh, I is identify, B is blame, I is interrupt, Z is zsuzs, and then A is action, of course. Um, and so I think it's really important to just work those steps so that then you're able to, yeah, shift your self-identity so that you are someone who's able to, you know, be able to handle money. Because a lot of people will then get money and they'll... Like, it'll slip through their fingers right away-

Lewis Howes 50:47 Yeah

Haley Sacks 50:47 ... because they are scared to hold onto it. They're like, "I don't know what to do with this." Like, and that's also why we see... I see this a lot with women, that they will have huge amounts of money sitting in their checking account because it makes them feel safe, but they don't know exactly what to do with it. Um, and so it's just, like, there, but they're not putting it to work, but maybe they know a little bit that they should be putting it to work.

Lewis Howes 51:07 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 51:07 But, like, they... You know, it's something that is, feels very, uh, off limits and sort of out of bounds. Um, and so yeah, it's really just comes from working that, those steps, and I've been using that program for, like, eight years. It's helped tens of thousands-

Lewis Howes 51:20 Really?

Haley Sacks 51:20 ... of people. Yeah, it

Haley Sacks 51:21 really works.

Lewis Howes 51:21 What is it? Identify, blame.

Haley Sacks 51:23 Uh, blame. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 51:24 What are, what are the first two? What does that mean?

Haley Sacks 51:25 Uh, so identify is to identify your, like, stuck money beliefs and, like, your patterns, and most people never look at themselves in that way. So, you know-

Lewis Howes 51:33 Uh-huh

Haley Sacks 51:33 ... the same way we go to therapy, we figure out, okay, why I keep getting in this bad relationship, let's figure out why you're broke, or why you're stuck with, you know, at a certain net worth. Or, you know, why you can't leave that job, or, you know, why you can't leave that relationship that maybe gives you financial security. Like, what is it actually about yourself where you're like, "Wait, maybe I can't take care of myself."

Lewis Howes 51:54 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 51:55 Or, you know, "Maybe there's not something else out there for me," or you know? Like, we have to break down those limiting beliefs.

Lewis Howes 52:00 Yes. Okay.

Haley Sacks 52:01 Um, and then B is blame, which I think I talked about a little.

Lewis Howes 52:04 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 52:04 But it's like, you know, there's a lot of... Uh, you can't talk about building wealth in America without talking about, like, the systemic issues that hold many people back. You know, most people, really, besides, like, no offense, white guys.

Lewis Howes 52:15 Sure.

Haley Sacks 52:16 Um, and so I... You know, blaming that is okay. My therapist says don't blame, but I think you can blame a little. You can blame.

Lewis Howes 52:23 [laughs]

Haley Sacks 52:23 It's important to ident- to, you know-

Lewis Howes 52:25 Sure

Haley Sacks 52:25 ... to, you know, talk about what's working against you, and it doesn't mean that just because there's forces working against you, you can't win.

Lewis Howes 52:31 Right.

Haley Sacks 52:31 But still gotta call them out.

Lewis Howes 52:34 But you acknowledge this is what's been challenging me and holding me back, right?

Haley Sacks 52:37 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 52:37 You know, exactly.

Haley Sacks 52:38 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 52:39 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 52:39 And then I is interrupt, which I'm sure, you know, you're someone who's really changed your life a lot.

Lewis Howes 52:44 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 52:44 And I'm sure you had to interrupt a lot of bad thoughts in order to get yourself to the place that you're at now.

Lewis Howes 52:49 100%, yeah.

Haley Sacks 52:49 Probably still, you know? It's a once in a while.

Lewis Howes 52:52 Less, but yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm in, really in a good system. Like, the moment I wake up, throughout the day, I'm constantly thinking of gratitude.

Haley Sacks 52:59 I love that.

Lewis Howes 53:00 Appreciation and gratitude of like, listen, do negative thoughts come in? Yes, but then I'm like, all right, this doesn't make me feel good. Can I do something about it? If not, then go back to gratitude. If I can do something, take the action, and then move back into gratitude.

Haley Sacks 53:13 That's a great practice.

Lewis Howes 53:15 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 53:15 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 53:15 It's just a... I mean, again, 90% of my day I'm feeling and thinking empowering things. When there is a breakdown or something that frustrates me or, you know, I'm not perfect, I'm human. If something makes me angry, I might sit in it for a, for a m- few minutes, but then I'm like, all right, can I act upon this so I stop feeling this?

Haley Sacks 53:35 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 53:36 Not react, but can I act upon it, or can I course correct? And if not, then I can't do anything about it.

Haley Sacks 53:43 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 53:43 There's nothing I can do. I can't change some system, you know? It's like if I can, let me act on it and feel empowered, and then go back to appreciation and gratitude.

Haley Sacks 53:52 Yeah. Well, that's-

Lewis Howes 53:53 The best way I can, you know?

Haley Sacks 53:54 You don't have helplessness, though.

Lewis Howes 53:56 No.

Haley Sacks 53:56 Like, your, your everything is within your locus of control, which is a huge mindset shift that people have to have in order to become future rich people, to grow wealth-

Lewis Howes 54:05 Yeah

Haley Sacks 54:05 ... to change their lives at all, you know?

Lewis Howes 54:06 I used to feel pretty helpless, though, in my early 20s-

Haley Sacks 54:08 Mm

Lewis Howes 54:08 ... 'cause I was, like, broke and-

Haley Sacks 54:09 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 54:09 ... dependent on people and-

Haley Sacks 54:11 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 54:11 ... felt like, ah, I can't make any money, and-

Haley Sacks 54:13 Yeah

Lewis Howes 54:13 ... everyone's out to get me, and-

Haley Sacks 54:14 Yeah, exactly

Lewis Howes 54:15 ... the system and-

Haley Sacks 54:16 The system, yeah

Lewis Howes 54:17 ... no one wants to hire me, all these things.

Haley Sacks 54:19 Uh, yeah.

Lewis Howes 54:19 I felt all those frustrations.

Haley Sacks 54:21 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 54:22 And then I started meeting mentors that I was like, "Oh, they have certain skills that I would like to acquire. Let me learn from them on how they acquired them." And, "Okay, let me go spend a week every year learning how to do public speaking. Let me go learn these other skills-

Haley Sacks 54:36 Yeah

Lewis Howes 54:37 ... that it helped them generate financial freedom." I had to learn how to read and write in my 20s. I wrote a book when I was 25.

Haley Sacks 54:44 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 54:45 And I had a mentor who had written a number of books, and he worked with me every week on learning how to write-

Haley Sacks 54:51 Wow

Lewis Howes 54:52 ... to write a book. And I spent a year doing that. I was like, "How do I develop skills to become more valuable?" Have more confidence, and then share more value to other people. But it took work. You can't just be a victim. You have to learn something.

Haley Sacks 55:08 So true, and I always talk about that as a, you know, a big part- one of the new rules of building wealth that I feel like people don't talk about enough is just, like, you know, we put so much energy towards saving money. It feels so easy for so many people, I think, to cut back. But I have a whole chapter in the book called Secure the Damn Bag about helping people instead shift their mindset to making more. And-

Lewis Howes 55:32 You're, you're not talking about the Louis Vuitton bag?

Haley Sacks 55:34 No, no, no.

Lewis Howes 55:35 Not a Louis. I'm like-

Haley Sacks 55:35 Yeah. No, no, no.

Lewis Howes 55:36 [laughs]

Haley Sacks 55:36 I know you're not gonna let me live that down.

Lewis Howes 55:38 Secure the bag, you know.

Haley Sacks 55:38 Secure the damn bag.

Lewis Howes 55:39 What does s- what does secure the damn bag mean?

Haley Sacks 55:41 Secure the damn bag means, like, you know, we have a finite amount of this financial energy every day, so instead of focusing on all the things that you can cut back, think about how you can actually earn more, 'cause that's gonna move the needle so much more-

Lewis Howes 55:53 Mm-hmm

Haley Sacks 55:54 ... for you. So, like, you know, and investing in your skills. 70% of people who, uh, increase their skills see a huge career boost.

Lewis Howes 56:03 Really?

Haley Sacks 56:03 Yeah. I saw that statistic today because I was doing a whole video about how reading weighs for people to increase their income. And really, you know, increasing your skills, 10 out of 10. And especially now in the age of AI, people are so scared that AI is gonna take their jobs, but it's really the people who know how to use AI are gonna take their jobs.

Lewis Howes 56:22 Oh, yeah.

Haley Sacks 56:23 So, like, invest in the skills so that you can, you know, understand that system.

Lewis Howes 56:27 Future-proof yourself too.

Haley Sacks 56:28 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 56:28 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 56:28 I have a lot about AI in the book as well.

Lewis Howes 56:30 What are three skills that anyone, no matter how old you are today, can learn to develop to earn more money in the future?

Haley Sacks 56:38 Well, I think it's dependent on your industry. Like, you know, it might be that you need to learn video editing. It might... For you, it was that you needed to learn probably public speaking-

Lewis Howes 56:48 Mm-hmm

Haley Sacks 56:48 ... and writing books. Um-

Lewis Howes 56:50 Mm-hmm

Haley Sacks 56:50 ... then, you know, for me it was, I, and I still invest every day in my financial literacy. Like, I, that's why I was so passionate about writing a book about money is because I am the biggest consumer of money books.

Lewis Howes 57:01 Mm.

Haley Sacks 57:01 They've changed my life. Like, I truly believe that what stands between any person and the life that they desire is just a money book that actually makes sense to them.

Lewis Howes 57:12 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 57:12 And that's why I wrote this book, because it's like, it's in plain English. There's s- tons of celebrity references. There's a lot about my life, like, you know, a lot of stories from people. So it's sort of like a brownie with spinach in it-

Lewis Howes 57:22 Mm-hmm

Haley Sacks 57:22 ... that you... I wanted it to be like a binge read, but at the end of the day you're like, "Wow, I really have, you know, increased my financial knowledge, and now I know exactly what to do."

Lewis Howes 57:32 That's big.

Haley Sacks 57:33 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 57:34 I remember I was in, like... I can't remember if I was, like, 18 or 20 grand in debt, but it was somewhere around there, and I read I Will Teach You to Be Rich by Ramit Sethi and-

Haley Sacks 57:43 Sethi Gavan

Lewis Howes 57:44 ... within six months I was completely out of debt, and I felt free-

Haley Sacks 57:47 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 57:48 ... from that kind of debt that I was in. And it just gave me a better framework for how to do things moving forward.

Haley Sacks 57:53 Mm.

Lewis Howes 57:53 And that was kind of, like, early stages of my financial literacy journey, I guess. And where, and when you get little financial wins, you wanna learn more.

Haley Sacks 58:03 Yeah. Uh-huh. You get addicted to winning.

Lewis Howes 58:04 You're like, "Okay, how do I learn how to maximize this?" And there's a lot at this season of life, now getting married and joining assets and creating trusts and all these different things, it's like, I feel like I still know nothing about money. Like, there's so many new levels.

Haley Sacks 58:18 Oh, there's so... You, I mean-

Lewis Howes 58:19 You know what I mean?

Haley Sacks 58:20 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 58:20 It's like, now I'm on a whole new level, I'm like, "I have no clue what I'm doing. I've never merged money. I've never merged assets. Like, what do I do now?" So it's like the last year I've been learning this process of new levels, and I feel like there's so much more to learn.

Haley Sacks 58:32 Mm-hmm. Yeah, there is. For me, the, I, the first book for me was Warren Buffett's Ground Rules, and it's, like, a- all of these shareholder letters of Warren Buffett-

Lewis Howes 58:42 Uh-huh

Haley Sacks 58:42 ... to Berkshire Hathaway, and it basically, all of them just say the same thing, which is like, compound interest, compound interest.

Lewis Howes 58:47 Same thing.

Haley Sacks 58:48 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 58:48 Invest early and often.

Haley Sacks 58:49 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 58:49 Compound interest.

Haley Sacks 58:49 Exactly. [laughs] Like, don't, like, no getting rich quick. Like, just be consistent. And so after that, I was obsessed with getting my money in the market.

Lewis Howes 58:56 Really?

Haley Sacks 58:56 And I was like, "Okay, what do I have to do to start investing?" Because it's

Haley Sacks 58:59 like the best day to invest was yesterday, and the second-best day is today, and like, we've gotta get there. And I'm still like that, where I'm like, you know, obsessed with compound interest and, like, you know, whenever I get paid or anything, I'm like, "Okay, this is going right in the market." I love the market. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 59:13 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 59:13 I'm married to it. I really am.

Lewis Howes 59:15 [laughs]

Haley Sacks 59:15 Yes.

Lewis Howes 59:16 What do you say to someone who puts a lot of, like, a lot of their money that they have in the market, and then boom, it goes down for the next few months, and they see 20, 30% of all their money they've been making for the last five to 10 years gone? Or hypothetically gone-

Haley Sacks 59:30 Yeah

Lewis Howes 59:31 ... based on the number in the market, and they feel like, "I just made the biggest mistake of my life."

Haley Sacks 59:35 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 59:35 "I put my money in the market. It just went down 30%. That was a year of my hard work-

Haley Sacks 59:40 Yeah

Lewis Howes 59:40 ... money gone. I'm never gonna invest again."

Haley Sacks 59:44 Oh, no.

Lewis Howes 59:45 What do you say to someone who has done that and they're afraid to invest in the market because of that?

Haley Sacks 59:51 I would say, first of all, do not sell, because that's how you lock your losses, and historically the market has always bounced back. And it r- you really have to see volatility as the tax that you pay for getting to grow wealth in the market, because it's sort of magical that, like-

Lewis Howes 1:00:07 Mm

Haley Sacks 1:00:07 ... we're able to put our money into this thing and then it just grows and gets bigger and bigger.

Lewis Howes 1:00:11 It's crazy.

Haley Sacks 1:00:11 And, you know, nothing good in life comes without, like, some sort of trade-off. So yeah, sometimes it's gonna be up and down, but that's why you have an emergency fund. Because you should never invest money that you need in the next five to seven years, because then, you know, if there is a down cycle and you're in need of that money, then you are gonna have to lock your losses at a, and you're gonna have to interrupt that compounding cycle.

Lewis Howes 1:00:34 Mm.

Haley Sacks 1:00:34 And so that's why it's so important to set up your financial life so that you're not in a position where it's so all or nothing. Um, and you also, you have to manage your emotions around it. Like you-

Lewis Howes 1:00:45 That's the biggest-

Haley Sacks 1:00:46 Yeah, you have to-

Lewis Howes 1:00:46 ... biggest thing

Haley Sacks 1:00:46 ... yeah, you have to understand that, like, that's actually really normal. Like, and that actually just means the market's on sale. So, like, do I have any extra money that I could put in more? Because I'm gonna be able to, like, get these index-

Lewis Howes 1:00:58 Oh

Haley Sacks 1:00:58 ... funds that I'm really into-

Lewis Howes 1:00:59 Interesting

Haley Sacks 1:01:00 ... yeah, for a discount

Lewis Howes 1:01:00 It's like getting that bag on eBay at a discount.

Haley Sacks 1:01:02 Yeah. Exact-

Lewis Howes 1:01:02 [laughs]

Haley Sacks 1:01:02 You're, you're not ever gonna let me... I'm gonna have to send you, like, a picture-

Lewis Howes 1:01:05 [laughs] Okay.

Haley Sacks 1:01:05 ... of the bag after.

Lewis Howes 1:01:06 I wanna see it.

Haley Sacks 1:01:07 Yeah, we'll send it to you.

Lewis Howes 1:01:08 Is that the bag out there?

Haley Sacks 1:01:09 No, no. We can't miss this bag though, 'cause you know, the LV.

Lewis Howes 1:01:11 You got it.

Haley Sacks 1:01:11 It's our thing.

Lewis Howes 1:01:12 You got it.

Haley Sacks 1:01:13 Yeah. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:01:15 What do you think, um, tell me about AI and making money.

Haley Sacks 1:01:18 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:01:19 I don't know if you've studied AI. I'm not saying you're like a master of AI, but where do you see is an opportunity for AI over the next five to 10 years around making money? Is it around learning it for your industry, no matter what industry you're in? Is it around investing in it? Like, what is, what should people be thinking around AI and making money?

Haley Sacks 1:01:38 Well, first, okay, so you know, I like to use the example of the elevator because, you know, when the elevator was first invented, there was someone who would be in the elevator with you physically-

Lewis Howes 1:01:53 Isn't that interesting?

Haley Sacks 1:01:53 ... hold it, yeah, like-

Lewis Howes 1:01:55 Still in the Upper East Side probably.

Haley Sacks 1:01:56 Yeah, on the back elevators. Yeah, there are, exactly. How'd you know that? Yeah. Exactly. So you know, the elevator person manually operating it, and then, you know, technology advances, we get buttons-

Lewis Howes 1:02:07 Uh-huh

Haley Sacks 1:02:07 ... and that job goes away. Does that mean that that person who was running the elevator never works again? No. They look for other opportunities to make money.

Lewis Howes 1:02:20 And get out of a box all day.

Haley Sacks 1:02:21 And get out of a box all day, and maybe, you know, they start working for the elevator company, whatever. They find other opportunity. But like in, historically, there have always been moments of technological advancement that have been scary and felt like they were going to absolutely change everything, and maybe they did, maybe they didn't, but the people who still win are the ones who ran towards that change instead of desperately clinging to what was-

Lewis Howes 1:02:51 Mm

Haley Sacks 1:02:51 ... and trying to maintain that old order because AI is here. We can't avoid it, and the people who are going to win are the ones who know how to use it. Um, and so I think that specifically with finances, I have been using Claude Cowork a lot-

Lewis Howes 1:03:08 Mm-hmm

Haley Sacks 1:03:08 ... um, which is, uh, really simple to set up. I'll probably end up making videos about this on Mrs. Dow Jones, so stay tuned. But you know, you can create these systems within it that can just help you manage your finances a bit easier.

Lewis Howes 1:03:22 That's cool.

Haley Sacks 1:03:23 Like, can connect your email to it and, you know, set up a, a, a flow so that it is finding any subscriptions, things like that to just make it a little bit easier to, like, catch things and be in control of your finances. So I think that there's a lot of opportunity. Um, but I think that, you know, no matter what happens with automation and AI and all these things, um, you always have to have an eye on your bottom line or someone else will. And so you can never automate... You can never, the, like, uh, yeah, you can never fully give up your financial responsibility ever. Like, I, you know, think a lot about Rihanna, of course. Any, any girl does. Uh, you might too. [laughs] Uh, she's a great gal. But you know, when she started her career, she was, you know, 15 or 16 from Barbados, um, got signed to Jay-Z's label, and I think they were like, "She's a star. Let's get her in the studio. Let's throw her on tour." It was the whole thing. And they set her up with these, uh, financial advisors who she never second-guessed because she was not someone who was, like, used to managing money.

Lewis Howes 1:04:32 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 1:04:32 This seemed like a trustworthy situation. Okay, great. She goes on this whole world tour, working every night, touring all over the world, you would think, you know, making millions of dollars, and comes home to buy a house. There's not enough money for a house.

Lewis Howes 1:04:45 Mm.

Haley Sacks 1:04:46 And not only that, she realized that her taxes had been all messed up. They were overcharging her, you know, all of these things because she did not have an eye on her bottom line.

Lewis Howes 1:04:57 Mm.

Haley Sacks 1:04:57 And this is a great example of if you don't have an eye on your bottom line, no one else will.

Lewis Howes 1:05:01 Right.

Haley Sacks 1:05:01 So what did Rihanna do? Fired them, got a new team, wrote Bitch Better Have My Money about those accountants.

Lewis Howes 1:05:07 Wow.

Haley Sacks 1:05:08 Yes. And now, of course, happy ending, she's a billionaire. But I guarantee you, Lewis, that Rihanna is signing her own checks because it doesn't matter where technology goes, you still have to have an eye on your bottom line or someone else will.

Lewis Howes 1:05:21 Yes.

Haley Sacks 1:05:22 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:05:23 I love that. I'm curious about old wealth versus new wealth.

Haley Sacks 1:05:28 Yeah, you're obsessed with old wealth, and like we're gonna do a whole-

Lewis Howes 1:05:30 I'm just curious about it.

Haley Sacks 1:05:30 Yeah, I know.

Lewis Howes 1:05:31 You know? I'm curious about it.

Haley Sacks 1:05:31 I'm like, I'm really... I should have worn, like, a Gossip Girl headband.

Lewis Howes 1:05:34 There you go. There you go.

Haley Sacks 1:05:34 Yep. I'm, I'm, like, upset that I'm not in, like, a prep school blazer. Like... [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:05:38 [laughs] What is-

Haley Sacks 1:05:40 I could have brought you some relics from my childhood.

Lewis Howes 1:05:42 You should have.

Haley Sacks 1:05:42 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:05:42 You should have. That bag, you know?

Haley Sacks 1:05:43 The bag.

Lewis Howes 1:05:45 What is one way of thinking that old wealth still has today that makes them succeed, and one way of thinking that new wealth has today that makes them succeed over the old wealth?

Haley Sacks 1:06:01 Something that old wealth does really well is they leverage. Old wealth loves debt. They are obsessed with borrowing money-

Lewis Howes 1:06:13 Mm

Haley Sacks 1:06:13 ... at a lower interest rate than they could make investing it somewhere else, and that helps them exponentially grow money. And that's why in the book, 'cause y- you don't have to have old wealth to do this, in the book, I talk a lot about, uh, paying off debt and how you should be focusing on paying off debt that's above 7% interest rate, 'cause that's, like, high interest rate debt.

Lewis Howes 1:06:37 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 1:06:37 But any debt below 7% interest rate, pay the minimum on and put whatever extra money you were gonna put towards that debt into the market where you could earn more than 7%-

Lewis Howes 1:06:48 Mm

Haley Sacks 1:06:48 ... 'cause the market on average is 8 to 10%.

Lewis Howes 1:06:50 Yeah, yeah.

Haley Sacks 1:06:50 So you have that difference. Um, so I think that is a key thing that, uh-

Lewis Howes 1:06:55 Old wealth

Haley Sacks 1:06:56 ... old money does. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:06:56 Okay.

Haley Sacks 1:06:56 They, they are, they love to leverage, and they also love to, um, grow generational wealth, which is why I have a whole chapter on rich kids too, uh, with all the secrets of how to set your kids up because it really... Kids are so young. They're zero.

Lewis Howes 1:07:10 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 1:07:10 You know, when they come out, pretty young.

Lewis Howes 1:07:12 They hit it.

Haley Sacks 1:07:12 They got a lot of time for compounding, so even if you start with, you know, small increments of money, you can grow them a lot. But you also have to remember to put your own max, oxygen mask on first because they can- Take out loans for school, but you cannot take out loans for retirement

Lewis Howes 1:07:27 Hmm

Haley Sacks 1:07:28 So, you know, don't get too caught up in it.

Lewis Howes 1:07:30 Interesting.

Haley Sacks 1:07:31 Um, yeah. And then the new rules of building wealth that I feel like the old guard, like, needs to understand more is, like, you know, this whole rent versus buy thing. I feel like there's such a premium put on owning property but, you know, in many places in America, like, if you rent and invest your down payment money instead, you're actually gonna make more.

Lewis Howes 1:07:51 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 1:07:52 So, you know, I think, like, old wealth is very obsessed with owning assets, which is so important, but I think new wealth sees the opportunity that is without, like, judgment or the-

Lewis Howes 1:08:06 Mm

Haley Sacks 1:08:07 ... you know, like, having to do things just because everyone else did them.

Lewis Howes 1:08:09 Yeah. Did your dad, does he wanna create generational wealth with you?

Haley Sacks 1:08:15 Oh, my dad is, like, uh, really intense about, like, like, for, like, for genera- like, wants it to be, like, won't let... There's... You can't touch the money. Like, whatever there is there, it's like it's not, uh... It's very tightly guarded, you know? Because it's, I think that he, he wants to... He doesn't-

Lewis Howes 1:08:35 What's he wanna do with it?

Haley Sacks 1:08:36 I don't know what he wants. He just doesn't want what happens to so many of his clients' kids to happen to us.

Lewis Howes 1:08:41 Mm.

Haley Sacks 1:08:41 You know?

Lewis Howes 1:08:41 Or you take the money, you spend it all, and then you're broke or something.

Haley Sacks 1:08:43 Yeah, or to just make a bad decision.

Lewis Howes 1:08:45 Uh-huh.

Haley Sacks 1:08:45 But the thing is, is, like, everyone's gonna make money mistakes. Like, he's made money mistakes too.

Lewis Howes 1:08:50 Sure.

Haley Sacks 1:08:50 I've made money mistakes.

Lewis Howes 1:08:51 Sure.

Haley Sacks 1:08:51 You've made money mistakes.

Lewis Howes 1:08:52 Yeah.

Haley Sacks 1:08:52 Like, it's like, don't cry over spilled milk as long as you didn't lose the cow. Like, we have to... You have to take risk in order to, like, get where you wanna go in life-

Lewis Howes 1:09:02 That's true

Haley Sacks 1:09:02 ... a little bit.

Lewis Howes 1:09:02 That's true.

Haley Sacks 1:09:02 So, you know. Um, but yeah, I think that it's complicated for him.

Lewis Howes 1:09:07 Your book's exciting. Future Rich Person: Uh, The New Rules for Building Wealth. Not the old rules, the new rules.

Haley Sacks 1:09:13 The new rules.

Lewis Howes 1:09:14 I want people to get a copy of the book. A lot of great, uh, stories and lessons in here for people, so make sure to get a copy. Get one for your friends as well. If you know someone who's struggling financially, they, maybe they feel stuck or maybe you know that they try to overspend to fit in, but you know they don't have anything in investments or saving and they still have debt, maybe just get them a copy of this book by, uh, Haley Sacks and check it out. Future Rich Person. I think everyone wants to be a future rich person.

Haley Sacks 1:09:40 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:09:40 They wanna be rich now and in the future.

Haley Sacks 1:09:43 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:09:43 And I think the power of compound interest, like you said many times here, uh, you know, the best time to invest was years ago. The second-best time is today, right? So it's like put it in now, often, and as much as you can for, for long term. Uh, I've got a couple co, final questions for you, Haley, and I appreciate you opening up and sharing many stories about the bag-

Haley Sacks 1:10:04 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:10:05 ... securing the bag.

Haley Sacks 1:10:06 You're the only one who's gotten that out of me.

Lewis Howes 1:10:08 [laughs]

Haley Sacks 1:10:08 I'm like, "I have to tell my dad not to watch this." [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:10:10 [laughs] Uh, this is a question I ask everyone at the end of the show called the Three Truths. Um, you've already kinda shared, like, three rules for money, but imagine you get to live as long as you want and you have total balance in your life.

Haley Sacks 1:10:23 Ooh, I love that.

Lewis Howes 1:10:24 The money, the relationship, health, family, kids, everything. Um, and you live the life of your dreams for the rest of your life, but it's the last day on Earth, many years away, and everything you've shared in your books, your content, your messages, have to go with you to the next place.

Haley Sacks 1:10:42 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:10:42 Hypothetically, but you get three lessons to share with the world. Doesn't have to be around money. Anything at all. What would those three lessons or three truths

Lewis Howes 1:10:50 be for you?

Haley Sacks 1:10:54 Number one, I would say the importance of rest. Uh, like, I have a pretty serious, like, TM practice.

Lewis Howes 1:11:03 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 1:11:03 And I think that it's something that's accessible to anyone, but, like, we're so encouraged to go, go, go, but what's really helped me get ahead has been being able to slow down-

Lewis Howes 1:11:14 Hmm

Haley Sacks 1:11:14 ... and give myself space every day during the day, and I have to carve it out and fight for it, Lewis, to rest a little.

Lewis Howes 1:11:21 Wow.

Haley Sacks 1:11:22 Really, really, really helps. Number two, I would say that, like, if you are sad about where you're at, if you don't feel, uh, happy in your life, the best way to get out of yourself is to give back.

Lewis Howes 1:11:35 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 1:11:35 Find a way, and that doesn't mean necessarily with money, but just find a way to help someone. It can be as small as smiling at them, but really, you know, finding ways to give back to your community, finding a cause that you champion, like, that's so important. Um, and third, I would just say, like, experiences over anything.

Lewis Howes 1:11:58 Hmm.

Haley Sacks 1:11:59 Like, I think that on my last day on Earth, I'm gonna remember, like, the sunset in Greece when I was, like, 34 with my best friends, like, you know, in the summer, not necessarily 'cause we were at, like, the fanciest hotel or, you know, this or that, but just because it was, like, one of the best days 'cause it was so simple.

Lewis Howes 1:12:15 Mm-hmm.

Haley Sacks 1:12:15 You know?

Lewis Howes 1:12:17 No bag, but simple experiences, you know?

Haley Sacks 1:12:18 Yeah, I don't, really don't care about the bags anymore.

Lewis Howes 1:12:20 Good for you.

Haley Sacks 1:12:20 I know, but I'm like-

Lewis Howes 1:12:21 Good for you. Good for you. Those are the things that, the, the experiences are things that I think we remember the most, you know? It's not the nice house and the cars or whatever, the things we have, but the, the people we share things with.

Haley Sacks 1:12:32 Yeah, and the bags.

Lewis Howes 1:12:33 And the bags.

Haley Sacks 1:12:33 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:12:34 And also, you can buy the bag.

Haley Sacks 1:12:35 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:12:35 If you want a nice bag, get a nice bag.

Haley Sacks 1:12:37 Yeah, and on my final day on Earth, I'm just gonna think, "Please make sure Lewis sees it. He's in my will to get the big Louis Vuitton bag."

Lewis Howes 1:12:43 [laughs] Give him the bag.

Haley Sacks 1:12:44 Yes, give Lewis the bag.

Lewis Howes 1:12:46 [laughs]

Haley Sacks 1:12:46 He secured it. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:12:47 Secure the bag. Um, Future Rich Person is out. People can get it right now. Also, you got a podcast, Financial Tea Podcast. Um, you share a lot of your tips and strategies and lessons on there as well. And also, just your social media is great content.

Haley Sacks 1:13:02 Thank you.

Lewis Howes 1:13:02 So if people want fun, entertaining, financial, uh, content, they can go check it out there as well. Cover a lot of stuff on culture, things that are happening right now in the world, so check that out. Love your work, Haley. I've got, uh, one final question for you, and that's what's your definition of greatness?

Haley Sacks 1:13:21 My definition of greatness is people who are able to see that, like, the system is flawed-

Lewis Howes 1:13:29 Mm

Haley Sacks 1:13:29 ... and things aren't perfect, and there's all these forces that are working against you, and reasons from your childhood and your family not to, and do it anyways.

Lewis Howes 1:13:40 There you go.

Haley Sacks 1:13:40 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:13:41 Appreciate you. Thanks for being here.

Haley Sacks 1:13:42 Thank you for having me.

Lewis Howes 1:13:43 Of course.

Haley Sacks 1:13:43 I think that we've got ourselves into a really dangerous position when we feel like the only businesses that are valid are billion-dollar unicorn sized and shaped ones. There's a lot of different ways to do businesses, and so I would think other limitations-