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Lewis HowesLewis Howes

The SECRET To BURNING FAT And Getting In Shape | Mark Sisson & Lewis Howes

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Lewis HoweshostMark Sissonguest
Apr 11, 201658mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 0:04

    Intro

    1. LH

      [upbeat music]

  2. 0:04 – 3:58

    Mark Sisson’s “Live Awesome” philosophy: pleasure, fulfillment, and long-term health

    1. LH

      Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness podcast. We've got a huge guest in, Mark Sisson in the house. Thanks for being here.

    2. MS

      Thanks for having me, man.

    3. LH

      Appreciate it.

    4. MS

      Yeah.

    5. LH

      I'm pumped. Uh, I heard about you, I think, probably like seven or eight years ago when I started kind of getting in the blogging world, the social media blogging world, and just kind of like dipping my toes in. You were a huge success already in the fitness space, and you had a book out called Primal Blueprint.

    6. MS

      Right.

    7. LH

      Or The Primal Blueprint. Is that right?

    8. MS

      Correct.

    9. LH

      And, um, I think you had like a couple hundred thousand subscribers at the time, maybe this was 2009, 2010, but you were already kind of just crushing it in the fitness space, and as, and doing very well as a blogger, and that's how I first heard about you.

    10. MS

      Right.

    11. LH

      And since then, you've got like tons of products in terms of, you had supplements before then, but you've got about 20-something books, right?

    12. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. LH

      Uh, you've got food products, training, restaurants, you've got everything, right?

    14. MS

      Right, right.

    15. LH

      Fitness programs. You've just kind of expanded the brand, which is really cool to see. Uh, and you've got a new book out today called Primal Endurance, uh, as one of the new books, and we'll, I wanna dive into what you just mentioned beforehand, before we started this interview, is talking about your lifestyle.

    16. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    17. LH

      And the whole philosophy and approach to your lifestyle. Whether you wanna be an endurance athlete or have endurance in your life, or you wanna put on mass, or you wanna get lean, or whatever it may be-

    18. MS

      Right

    19. LH

      ... you have a specific lifestyle that I've always been excited about. When you came in here, uh, you were talking about how I have the same stand-up desk as you, and I was like, "Yes. If I'm doing something that Mark is doing, I feel like I'm doing it right."

    20. MS

      Right.

    21. LH

      So, I just wanna dive into what this philosophy is and, and how you actually live.

    22. MS

      Right. So, uh, my main goal is to live awesome.

    23. LH

      Okay.

    24. MS

      That's the tagline, that's the motto of our company.

    25. LH

      Uh-huh.

    26. MS

      Primal Blueprint, live awesome. And what does that mean? It means extracting the greatest amount of pleasure, enjoyment, contentment, fulfillment, uh, you, th- th- that's possible out of every possible moment.

    27. LH

      Hmm.

    28. MS

      Now, there are gonna be bad times, of course, but to, to, to live in the moment, to appreciate the now, to, uh, appreciate the relationships, uh, to have fun when you're, when you're working out.

    29. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    30. MS

      Uh, to enjoy every single bite of food you ever eat-

  3. 3:58 – 6:50

    From marathon/triathlon training to burnout: injuries, illness, and rethinking the old paradigm

    1. LH

      Hmm. When did you start to, you know, take this on? You know, 'cause you were a, was it a tri- triathlete?

    2. MS

      Yeah, I was a marathoner-

    3. LH

      Marath-

    4. MS

      ... in the, in the '70s.

    5. LH

      Wow.

    6. MS

      And, actually the late '60s and early '70s.

    7. LH

      Wow.

    8. MS

      And, uh, and from there went to triathlon. Um, I was always trying to, you know, i- i- improve myself.

    9. LH

      Optimize performance.

    10. MS

      Optimize performance.

    11. LH

      Yes.

    12. MS

      Um, using the tools of the day, which were pretty rudimentary.

    13. LH

      [laughs] Yeah.

    14. MS

      It's like, all right, run a lot of miles and eat lots of carbohydrates-

    15. LH

      Mm-hmm

    16. MS

      ... and you'll be, you'll be where you need to be.

    17. LH

      Right.

    18. MS

      Well, you know, that's what, that's what we knew. That's all we knew, and it wasn't exactly appropriate.

    19. LH

      Hmm.

    20. MS

      So, over the years, I got injured, I got sick from the over-training, from the diet, which was very highly inflammatory. It caused sort of-

    21. LH

      Pastas and breads, or what?

    22. MS

      All that stuff that they said you had to eat. Pasta.

    23. LH

      I mean, I had so many pasta meals-

    24. MS

      Yeah

    25. LH

      ... and pizza meals-

    26. MS

      Yeah

    27. LH

      ... and lasagna meals the night before every game.

    28. MS

      Yeah.

    29. LH

      And I remember just being so exhausted in every game.

    30. MS

      Yeah.

  4. 6:50 – 7:39

    The endurance shift: becoming good at burning fat instead of managing glycogen

    1. MS

      So I started recognize it, recognizing that back in '82, and then it's even, even up until three years ago, uh, when I started researching the Primal Endurance book, I started thinking, well, you know, v- all of the science continues to show us that the old choice was probably a wrong choice. That reliance on carbohydrates and that, that, uh-

    2. LH

      Mm-hmm

    3. MS

      ... intent of, of managing our glycogen stores in our muscles was kind of the wrong approach, and maybe we ought to come at it from the exact opposite end of the spectrum, which is, how do we become really good at burning fat? And in so doing, spare glycogen, and in so doing, uh, unburden ourselves of having to take in so much carbohydrate in the form of pasta and breads and cereals-

    4. LH

      Right

    5. MS

      ... and rice and crackers and cookies and all the other stuff.

    6. LH

      Sure, sure.

    7. MS

      It's amazing.

    8. LH

      And you're, you're 62, right?

    9. MS

      Yeah.

  5. 7:39 – 10:18

    Diet as the main lever for body composition: shifting off constant eating and into fat adaptation

    1. LH

      Right? And you're, like, leaner than anyone I know. So how, what's the most effective way to burn fat?

    2. MS

      So-

    3. LH

      And still be strong.

    4. MS

      Yeah, of course. You know, uh, w- as we said initially in the Primal Blueprint-

    5. LH

      Mm-hmm

    6. MS

      ... uh, and I've said it decades before the r- I wrote the Primal Blueprint, 80% of your body composition is determined by how you eat. So if you i- there's a certain way in which you can eat where you can literally reprogram your genes to derive most of your energy from your stored body fat.

    7. LH

      Really?

    8. MS

      Yes. So as opposed to, um, waking up, being hungry, having breakfast, um, being hungry at, at the 10:30 break, being hungry for lunch, having a snack in the afternoon, having a dinner, and having a snack before you go to bed, which is the sort of standard American approach, like, uh-

    9. LH

      Mm-hmm

    10. MS

      ... even the old bodybuilders would say, "Don't go more than three hours without eating or you will cannibalize your muscle tissue."

    11. LH

      Right.

    12. MS

      That was all based on an assumption that we had to burn carbohydrate and had to, had to access glucose and glycogen for the muscles to be able to s- to continue to, to work. It never contemplated that we are obligate fat burners. We are born with this amazing ability to extract calories from stored body fat.

    13. LH

      Hmm.

    14. MS

      And the, and the reason that we don't as we go through life is we present our you- you know, you're two years old, you're eating cookies and crackers and-

    15. LH

      Right

    16. MS

      ... mushed peas and-

    17. LH

      Ice cream and everything, yeah

    18. MS

      ... all sorts of carb... All that stuff. And so your body learns to depend on, on glucose-

    19. LH

      Hmm

    20. MS

      ... on carbohydrates as a source of energy, and never really gets to the point where you force it to burn fat.

    21. LH

      Wow.

    22. MS

      So what we do is we, we, we shift the diet around. It's not painful. You get rid of the breads, the pastas, the cereals, the crackers, the cookies, the candies, the sweetened soft drinks. Well, it does sound kind of harsh, doesn't it?

    23. LH

      [laughs]

    24. MS

      But, but what you're left with is meat, fish, fowl, eggs, nuts, seeds, vegetables, a little bit of fruit.

    25. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    26. MS

      Um, some starchy tubers like sweet potatoes and things like that. Those are great-tasting foods if you eat them right.

    27. LH

      Yeah.

    28. MS

      And, and they-

    29. LH

      And they're real food

    30. MS

      ... and they're real food. And you can use butter and lard and, and you can eat bacon on this, on this program. And what it does is it reduces-

  6. 10:18 – 12:38

    Sugar cravings and the “vicious cycle”: breaking addiction and stabilizing energy

    1. LH

      But when, you, you know, I was, uh, still love sugar.

    2. MS

      Yeah.

    3. LH

      But I used to be really bad at sugar. I feel like I have it much more under control, but I feel like when you're eating a lot of candy, sweets, and sugar, you're never satisfied. You just wanna eat more and more and more.

    4. MS

      But that's the, and that-

    5. LH

      Until you're sick, and then you're like-

    6. MS

      No, exactly. No, yeah. [laughs]

    7. LH

      ... "Ugh, I'm full 'cause I'm sick now."

    8. MS

      Yeah. I mean, I-

    9. LH

      It's bad. [laughs]

    10. MS

      The stories of Lamar Odom eating four pounds of candy-

    11. LH

      Before games?

    12. MS

      ... be- before games or whatever.

    13. LH

      Crazy.

    14. MS

      Yeah. But I mean, we are... Look, we're all hardwired.

    15. LH

      But look where he's at now. You know? It's like-

    16. MS

      We're all... But, but the, sort of, by the way, sugar's a very addictive substance.

    17. LH

      It's so addictive.

    18. MS

      So, um, you know, we're all hardwired to seek out sweet things. That's part of that hunter/gatherer DNA that we all carry-

    19. LH

      Really?

    20. MS

      ... that hasn't changed in, in thousands of years. Yeah.

    21. LH

      So how do we shift our minds?

    22. MS

      So you, the, the, the first way you do it is, is you go from, from the craving, which is what you're talking about. Like, you crave sugar, so you eat sugar, and then that just promotes more craving, and it gets you into this sort of addictive cycle. You're actually producing-

    23. LH

      Can't stop

    24. MS

      ... sort of opiate-like substances that are f- that are occupying receptor sites that are giving you f- sort of a feel-good, uh, experience.

    25. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    26. MS

      So you gotta kind of be willing to, to get rid of that. So you get rid of the candies, you get rid of the s- uh, sweetened beverages, the soft drinks, the teas, and you get rid of the carbohydrates that, uh, not all carbs, but the, the, the breads that convert to glucose in the bloodstream-

    27. LH

      Uh-huh

    28. MS

      ... so rapidly. So now you've lowered your blood, your, your glucose experience on a daily basis. So now th- the brain is starting to get, "Yeah, I don't need to really get that much glucose. You know, I can, I can..." Uh, the body is burning more fat. As a result of your being able to burn fat, you, you s- create these byproducts called ketones, which the brain loves to burn ketones.

    29. LH

      Hmm.

    30. MS

      And b- burns them preferentially. So you, you need less and less sugar to, you know, maintain clarity throughout the day. If you're, if you haven't become fat adapted and you're a sugar burner, which is what we... It's not a derogatory term, but we use it-

  7. 12:38 – 13:48

    The 21-day transition and why fat burners don’t need constant pre/post-workout fueling

    1. MS

      So if we can- Um, you know, take the steps. We say it takes 21 days. That's why I have a book called The 21 Day Total Body Transformation. 21 days of this, uh-

    2. LH

      Mm

    3. MS

      ... cutting these, these, uh, sugars and, and starchy, um, not starchy, but, uh, um, simple carbohydrates, uh, out of your-

    4. LH

      Mm

    5. MS

      ... diet, and just focusing on healthy fats and lean proteins and, and, uh, uh, you know, s- uh, and vegetables.

    6. LH

      Right.

    7. MS

      Uh, you get... Y- y- your body just gets the message and says, "I'm not gonna be getting that much glucose. I'm gonna learn how to burn fat, and I'm gonna do it well, damn it."

    8. LH

      Mm. [laughs]

    9. MS

      And, and it, and then it takes the fat out of your body fat stores.

    10. LH

      Right.

    11. MS

      So over time, you lose a pound, two pounds a week, uh, and you trend toward your ideal body composition.

    12. LH

      Wow.

    13. MS

      So all of this is a 10-minute long-winded, uh, answer to your, uh, question of how, you know, what does it take to, t- you know, to burn fat. It doesn't take a lot of exercise. It mostly takes-

    14. LH

      Right

    15. MS

      ... the dietary shift. Right. Yeah, you gotta do some exercise.

    16. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    17. MS

      You don't have to do anything, but you can choose to do some exercise.

    18. LH

      It'll help accelerate it, right?

    19. MS

      And it'll help accelerate it a little bit, but most of it happens as a result-

    20. LH

      Really?

    21. MS

      ... of the shifts you make in your diet. Absolutely.

    22. LH

      It's all in the kitchen.

    23. MS

      Yep.

    24. LH

      So you can get abs in the kitchen and not do anything different working out.

    25. MS

      Absolutely.

    26. LH

      Wow.

    27. MS

      Yeah.

  8. 13:48 – 15:50

    Primal vs. paleo vs. other approaches: the common theme and key differences

    1. LH

      Okay. And so what's the difference between... 'Cause it sounds like a little paleo-ish. What's the difference between primal, paleo and, like, a bulletproof, which has kind of been picking up as well? What's-

    2. MS

      You know, they're all sort of versions of a similar theme, which is to-

    3. LH

      Oh

    4. MS

      ... cut the, the sugars way down, cut the processed carbohydrates way down, get rid of the industrial seed oils, so that would be the soybean oil, the corn oil, the canola-

    5. LH

      Mm

    6. MS

      ... which are causing, uh, in- inflammatory responses in a lot of people, and just kinda go to real food.

    7. LH

      Yeah.

    8. MS

      Uh, with the Primal Blueprint, we said, uh, at some point, um, you know, dairy, if you like it, why not c- include it in your, in your diet if you-

    9. LH

      I love it

    10. MS

      ... don't have an issue with it, right?

    11. LH

      I love it.

    12. MS

      So, but all these foods exist on a spectrum.

    13. LH

      Yes.

    14. MS

      So dairy, you know, there, there's raw, raw milk, which is, which is good for you. Uh, there's a2 protein, which is a form of case- casein. Um, we could have a whole discussion about the different-

    15. LH

      Mm

    16. MS

      ... types of cows and the different types of protein that they make. But on, on the far end of the spectrum, the good end, there's butter, there's cream, there's all these things. At the other end, at the bad end, there's 2% skim, homogenized, pasteurized, nonfat whatever. Stay away from that stuff.

    17. LH

      Yeah.

    18. MS

      You know? So, um, all these foods sort of exist on a spectrum, so cheeses, for instance, th- part of the dairy family. Um, I love cheese.

    19. LH

      I love cheese.

    20. MS

      So, you know, I, we, we include it in our eating strategy because we say there's no real reason not to.

    21. LH

      Mm.

    22. MS

      Um-

    23. LH

      Get the right cheese

    24. MS

      ... pri- uh, paleo. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Artisanal cheeses, and there's good and bad cheeses as well. Um, but on the paleo program, or the paleo strategy is pretty strict for a lot of people. So they would say-

    25. LH

      No cheese, right?

    26. MS

      ... no dairy at all-

    27. LH

      Yeah

    28. MS

      ... of any kind. Uh, so no milk, no butter, no, no, no cream-

    29. LH

      Mm-hmm

    30. MS

      ... no cheese. Uh, so that's, you know, th- there, there are little variations-

  9. 15:50 – 17:08

    “Look Good Naked” (LGN): a motivator and a side effect of fixing health issues

    1. LH

      Gotcha. Okay. Um, what is, uh, LGN?

    2. MS

      [laughs]

    3. LH

      And how does it motivate you?

    4. MS

      Yeah, so LGN is look good naked, and it's a, you know, it's just a little mnemonic device we've used for the last 10 years. I think people have used it before, but we, we sort of made it a meme for a while. Uh, and it's just this idea that one of the things that we are seeking is we wanna, we wanna look good naked. We wanna-

    5. LH

      Mm-hmm

    6. MS

      ... and, and I think that happens. For a lot of people, that's, uh, that's a subset of their greater goal, or it's a side effect-

    7. LH

      Mm

    8. MS

      ... of the original intent. The original intention-

    9. LH

      Right

    10. MS

      ... for a lot of people go to pri- to Primal Blueprint and to Mark's Daily Apple, my blog, is they're frustrated. They, they, they're sick. Uh, they can't get off the meds. Uh, they've had, uh, health issues, and they've not been able to resolve them through the traditional medical channels. So a lot of people come to me having had that experience in the medical community, not a good one.

    11. LH

      Mm.

    12. MS

      So the first thing that they, they recognize is, you know, their blood sugar normalizes, or their polycystic ovarian syndrome goes away, or their, uh, irritable bowel syndrome, uh, goes away, or their GERD or whatever it is that they're dealing with goes away. And that's-

    13. LH

      Right

    14. MS

      ... that's wonderful. And then they go, "Oh, by the way, I'm losing some weight, too." That's awesome as well, and I'm starting to look good naked.

    15. LH

      Right.

    16. MS

      So it becomes-

    17. LH

      Nice

    18. MS

      ... a nice side effect.

    19. LH

      A side effect.

    20. MS

      Yeah.

  10. 17:08 – 23:04

    Mark’s daily routine: compressed eating window, fasted training, and “real food” meals

    1. LH

      Gotcha. So what's a typical eating day look like for you? Like, what are you putting in your system?

    2. MS

      Yeah, so-

    3. LH

      And what time do you put it in?

    4. MS

      Yeah, so I wake up in the morning, and I have a cup of coffee around 6:30 in the morning.

    5. LH

      Wow.

    6. MS

      Um, I like coffee. I'm a big fan of coffee. Um, I don't eat until 12:30 or 1:00.

    7. LH

      Okay.

    8. MS

      So I use what we call a compressed eating window.

    9. LH

      Mm.

    10. MS

      Now, I will wake up, and I have plenty of energy because I'm so good at burning fat. I've trained my body to do that, that I don't-

    11. LH

      So you have the energy. You don't need-

    12. MS

      I have the energy. I'm not, I'm not in a, in a slump waking up from having not eaten for the 12 hours that I was sleeping. Uh, it doesn't matter. I'm so good at accessing the stored body fat, I got plenty of energy. In fact, I'll go to the gym at 9:30 or 10:00, and I'll do my workout s- fasted. Sometimes it'll be a heavy leg day. Sometimes it'll be, you know, intervals of some kind. Um, again, I don't, and I'll do-

    13. LH

      And you feel fine.

    14. MS

      Feel fine.

    15. LH

      Right.

    16. MS

      And then when I get home, I won't eat... If I get home at, like, 11:00, I still won't eat for an hour and a half, um, partly because I'm not hungry-

    17. LH

      Right, right

    18. MS

      ... and partly 'cause I got stuff to do, right?

    19. LH

      Right, right, right. Exactly.

    20. MS

      So, but I'm not compelled to go, "Oh my God, I just finished my workout."

    21. LH

      Mm.

    22. MS

      "I must eat a post-workout shake or something."

    23. LH

      Yeah, there's so many people that say that, you know, have a protein shake within the first 30 minutes of waking up to start your metabolism, drink a shake right after a workout. Why do they say that, and why do you think you don't need to?

    24. MS

      Um, I think you don't need to because if you become good at burning fat, uh, a couple things happen. First of all, you have the energy to get through the day. Second of all, if you're good at burning fat and you're not hungry, I say if you're not hungry, wh- why are you eating?

    25. LH

      Mm.

    26. MS

      If you're not hungry, don't eat, 'cause that's, that's, it's kinda key. Um, when you become good at burning fat, you don't-

    27. LH

      You don't enter that cannibalistic zone that-

    28. MS

      Mm

    29. LH

      ... the bodybuilders enter when they're dependent on carbs a lot, which is you start to tear up your muscle tissue. Because when you're a sugar burner and you run out of sugar, and, or you're, you, you know, you're, you're depending on carbohy- I, by the way, I use glycogen, glucose, carbohydrate, and sugar sort of interchangeably.

    30. MS

      Okay.

  11. 23:04 – 25:29

    Products built for his own needs: salad dressing oils and collagen-focused protein bars

    1. MS

      It might be, uh, what I call a big-ass salad.

    2. LH

      Okay.

    3. MS

      You know, it's a big salad with lots of vegetables in it and some form of protein, with lots of salad dressing. Um, if you make dressing-

    4. LH

      But you have your own salad dressing

    5. MS

      ... now I have my own salad dressing 'cause I couldn't find any that I could put a lot on-

    6. LH

      Yes

    7. MS

      ... and feel like this is-

    8. LH

      That isn't filled with sugar or whatever.

    9. MS

      Yeah. Or, or, or unhealthy fats or unhealthy oils, like the-

    10. LH

      Mm-hmm

    11. MS

      ... soybean oil that I was talking about or the-

    12. LH

      Mm-hmm

    13. MS

      ... canola. You know, it's like no canola. This is, our, our, um, salad dressings are made with avocado oil, which is the healthiest-

    14. LH

      Wow

    15. MS

      ... of all the oils.

    16. LH

      Wow.

    17. MS

      So I have a big salad with, with chicken from l- leftover from the previous night or s- a piece of fish or something on it.

    18. LH

      Nice. Okay. And then?

    19. MS

      And then, uh, I go till the middle of the d- middle of the afternoon, maybe late afternoon I might have a handful of macadamia nuts.

    20. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    21. MS

      Um, uh, we do make a, uh, we, we m- we make a protein bar now.

    22. LH

      Yes, I saw those.

    23. MS

      All my products I make for myself, by the way, just so you know.

    24. LH

      Right, right, right.

    25. MS

      I make stuff that I wish existed.

    26. LH

      Uh-huh.

    27. MS

      That, uh... So, so-

    28. LH

      This one, the dark chocolate almond bar?

    29. MS

      The dark chocolate almond bar.

    30. LH

      It looks amazing.

  12. 25:29 – 28:41

    Eating less without suffering: hunger cues, portion awareness, and past sugar habits

    1. MS

      No, so here's the thing. It, it, you, you may have, um, gleaned from that, that, uh, it's not a lot of food.

    2. LH

      Right.

    3. MS

      And one of the things that you realize when you become good at burning fat-

    4. LH

      You don't need a lot of food

    5. MS

      ... you need, you don't need a lot of food.

    6. LH

      Mm.

    7. MS

      So a few years ago, um, you know, I had this thought experiment. I go, I thought, well, you know, I used to my whole life see what I could get away with, see how much food I could eat and not feel like I was gonna puke or not-

    8. LH

      [laughs]

    9. MS

      ... feel like I was gonna gain weight, right? It's how much food can I eat and not-

    10. LH

      Mm-hmm

    11. MS

      ... and not gain weight. And I think a, I think a lot of people live their lives that way. They sort of finish what's on their plate. They, you know, they, they, uh, basically there are a lot of people who run or work out just so they can eat more. Like why-

    12. LH

      Yes

    13. MS

      ... do you run so much, Lewis? Well, I run because I-

    14. LH

      It's sort of the story of-

    15. MS

      ... I love to eat.

    16. LH

      Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

    17. MS

      I love to eat. Well, dude, I love to eat too.

    18. LH

      Yeah.

    19. MS

      But I don't, I don't want to beat myself up-

    20. LH

      Sure. Sure, sure

    21. MS

      ... just so I can eat more. Uh, so that was the thought experiment. And then if you reverse it, you go, well, if that's the case, what's the least amount of food I can eat and m- maintain my body mass, maintain my energy, not get sick, and most importantly, not be hungry?

    22. LH

      Mm.

    23. MS

      And it turns out it's about 30% fewer calories than I used to eat.

    24. LH

      Wow.

    25. MS

      Yeah. So I learned within the last, uh, 10 years, I, I've learned, you know, just sort of halfway through a meal, ask myself, just sort of subconsciously, am I really hungry for the next bite? Not am I full, not am I, you know, whatever, but am I, am I truly hungry for the next bite? And if I'm not, I'm okay pushing the plate away, wrapping it up, throwing it away, giving it away-

    26. LH

      Mm

    27. MS

      ... whatever, uh, because I know there's food wherever I want, whenever I want.

    28. LH

      Right.

    29. MS

      So it's not like I'm trying to pack on the-

    30. LH

      You don't need to stuff it. Yeah.

  13. 28:41 – 34:49

    Nine primal principles for athletes: sleep, stress/rest, and training flexibility

    1. LH

      Um, so what are these, you know, for athletes listening or for people that want to get back into their athletic ways, you know, I used to be a professional athlete and I'm still, I consider myself an athlete. You've got, uh, nine pieces of primal advice for athletes, but I think a lot of entrepreneurs could live this way too-

    2. MS

      Yeah, yeah

    3. LH

      ... and still, like be better entrepreneurs, be more productive, have better relationships, be sharper, all these different things.

    4. MS

      And I think everything you do to be a better athlete makes you a better entrepreneur.

    5. LH

      Absolutely.

    6. MS

      Yeah.

    7. LH

      Absolutely. Uh, but you talk about adequate sleep, and this is something I've been talking about a lot lately on my podcast and bringing out different sleep experts. But why, just emphasize, is sleep important for you?

    8. MS

      I mean, sleep is when the body renews and regenerates, repairs itself.

    9. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MS

      It's when, uh, a lot of the neural networking happens. To overlook sleep and to think, well, you know, I can sleep when I'm dead, well, you know, that just is so, such faulty logic.

    11. LH

      Yeah.

    12. MS

      Uh, it's so critical and so important. I try to get eight hours a night myself. Um, if I get less than six for some reason, I, I feel it, I know it, I try to make up for it. I try not to let that happen.

    13. LH

      Mm.

    14. MS

      Um, I try, I try not to schedule late nights because I wake up at the same time pretty much every morning. So if I-

    15. LH

      6:00 AM wake up, or?

    16. MS

      Yeah, 6:30. 6:00 AM, 6:30.

    17. LH

      Yeah.

    18. MS

      But if I were to go to bed at 1:00, I'd still wake up at my normal time.

    19. LH

      Yeah.

    20. MS

      And so I, I have to really force myself to, not force myself, 'cause I'm tired at the end of a day.

    21. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    22. MS

      I'm, I'm... And I, and I have this whole wind down process. You know, my-

    23. LH

      What is that?

    24. MS

      So my wife and I will, we'll watch some, uh, we'll do some television, uh, after dinner. Um, we'll catch up on, we'll do some, some binge watching, catching up of-

    25. LH

      Yes

    26. MS

      ... whatever the latest series was. Uh, but around 10:00 we'll break. Uh, I, I have a pool in my backyard and a jacuzzi.

    27. LH

      Mm.

    28. MS

      So I go into... The pool's unheated, so in the wintertime it might be in the 50s.

    29. LH

      Wow.

    30. MS

      I'll walk into the pool and, and hang out there for a couple of minutes and get really, really cold, but not to the point of shivering, just, and it's kind of a process in and of itself. Then I'll get in the jacuzzi. So my wife and I will hang out in the jacuzzi and we'll just recap what the day's events were. It's very, uh, we turn off all the lights in the house. We have a fire pit out there.

  14. 34:49 – 40:19

    Aerobic base building: “train slow to race fast” and using heart rate to stay in fat-burning zones

    1. LH

      Gotcha. Uh, the next thing you talk about is aerobic emphasis. Train slow to race fast. What does that mean?

    2. MS

      Yeah, so this is the toughest one for current endurance athletes to really, to, to, to grok. And that is, um, a lot of athletes, and I was certainly one for 20 years, you, you basically go out and you train to hurt.

    3. LH

      Mm.

    4. MS

      So you run or you ride or you swim at a heart rate that's, you know, 75 to 90% of your max heart rate.

    5. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. MS

      And you see how long you can hold out.

    7. LH

      Right, right.

    8. MS

      Right? And, and so you're training to hurt, and it's, and it's... and it hurts, you know? [laughs]

    9. LH

      It hurts you.

    10. MS

      It, it does hurt you.

    11. LH

      Yeah.

    12. MS

      But you feel tough as a result of it. And the, but the problem is you're not really training the body to be- become more efficient. You're just training yourself to hurt. So when we talk about efficiency in racing, we go back to the original premise about glu- glucose and glycogen being sort of this determining factor in, in muscle tissue. When you run out of glycogen, you sort of hit the wall. So how do you manage glycogen? Well, one way would be to eat a lot of carbohydrates and drink a lot of gels during the race. The other would be to become-

    13. LH

      Mm

    14. MS

      ... so good at burning fat that you never really tap into that glycogen.

    15. LH

      Interesting.

    16. MS

      So we train you to become so good at burning fat. Now, that's the 80% that we talked about with the diet, but the other part of that for the endurance athlete is if you train at a low enough heart rate that you are, i- i- it's, typically it's 180 minus your age. So let's just say you're 40 years old. So 180 minus 40 is 140, so that's gonna be your maximum heart rate. You're never in your training, you're not gonna go above that. You set your watch, you set your heart monitor-

    17. LH

      Mm-hmm

    18. MS

      ... to, to give you a signal as soon as you get above 140. Now, you, you start out and you, at that 140, maybe you can only run 13-minute miles even though you're capable of running seven-minute miles at 175 beats a minute or whatever.

    19. LH

      Right.

    20. MS

      But now what, what we're doing is we're measuring how good you are at burning fat.

    21. LH

      Mm.

    22. MS

      And we know that at that, at that number, 180 minus your age, that's the highest rate that you could put oxygen through your system and, and know that you're burning mostly fat.

    23. LH

      Really?

    24. MS

      And we know that because that's the, that's the pace at which you could brea- you could close your mouth- And breathe through your nose-

    25. LH

      Sure

    26. MS

      ... and get plenty of oxygen. Or that's the pace at which you could be with a training partner and talk without losing your breath.

    27. LH

      Mm.

    28. MS

      Once you start losing your, uh, having to catch up or having to get winded, we know that you're going into burning, you, you, you're building up lactic acid.

    29. LH

      So you're not burning fat.

    30. MS

      You're, you're not burning fat, or you're burning less fat and m- starting to burn more sugar. So we wanna, we want you to be at the highest end of your, of your fat burning without tapping into your sort of g- glycolytic, uh, uh, uh-

  15. 40:19 – 42:33

    Structured intensity and power maintenance: heavy lifting for endurance performance

    1. LH

      Interesting. Okay, cool. Um, structured intensity, what does this mean?

    2. MS

      Uh, it, it means, uh, p- partly means you've gotta go into the gym and do some, some heavy lifting.

    3. LH

      Yes.

    4. MS

      But not a lot.

    5. LH

      Okay.

    6. MS

      And-

    7. LH

      This is if you wanna be an endurance athlete

    8. MS

      ... if you endure... Yeah. If you want-

    9. LH

      Yeah. Okay

    10. MS

      ... even if you, even if you wanna be an endurance athlete, one of the things that, that athletes used to avoid like the plague was the gym.

    11. LH

      Right.

    12. MS

      They would... Or if they went, they would do, you know, 50 repetitions of a light weight because they're thinking-

    13. LH

      Mm

    14. MS

      ... "Well, you know, I'm doing, when I'm running a marathon, I'm running, you know, 3,000 repetitions of, of, of a leg turnover."

    15. LH

      Yeah, yeah.

    16. MS

      "So why don't I simulate that in the..."

    17. LH

      But you're saying lifting-

    18. MS

      Yeah

    19. LH

      ... some weights is gonna be key to your endurance as well.

    20. MS

      So what happens in any long endurance contest, in addition to running out of fuel, is you run out, y- y- your, your power, uh, decreases because you haven't trained the power. Uh, an example would be you've got three hills to climb in a bike race. The first one you go up with 100% of your power. The second one, even though you have energy, your muscle fibers are-

    21. LH

      Mm

    22. MS

      ... they've been exhausted, and they, they haven't trained to sustain your power. So now you go up the second hill at 82% of your max power.

    23. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    24. MS

      And you might go up the third hill at 65% of your max power. Well, if we could train those muscle fibers deeper and deeper to s- to sustain power for those, for those efforts that require actual power, uh, we can, we can maybe go up that first hill at 100, and go up that hill, second hill at 100-

    25. LH

      Mm-hmm

    26. MS

      ... and that third hill at 95.

    27. LH

      Right.

    28. MS

      So we do this work in the gym where you load muscle fibers up with fairly heavy weights. It's, it's typically 80% of your one-rep max. And we do sequential, um, repetitions with, with sequential rest in between. So it's not like you do, uh, three sets of, of five and you stop. It's like you do, uh, three repetitions, rest 10 seconds, three repetitions, rest 10 seconds, two repetitions, rest 10 seconds, rest 20 seconds. And, and t- until you can't finish one good rep.

    29. LH

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    30. MS

      And then the workout's over. So it's not you just did one set, and it might have, might have comprised 200 repetitions-

  16. 42:33 – 49:42

    Lifestyle practices for athletes and entrepreneurs: play, movement-friendly work, and recovery metrics

    1. LH

      Gotcha. Um, and the next thing you talk about is lifestyle practices. What do you mean by that?

    2. MS

      Well, so now we talk about everything else but the training. So if you're, you know, it's, it's- ... uh, spending time with your family. It's playing, playing games with your, you know, t- uh, playing Frisbee with your dog, uh-

    3. LH

      Yes

    4. MS

      ... uh, playing Ultimate with your, with your, with your friends. It's, uh, um, you know, it, it's all of the other things that make life enjoyable-

    5. LH

      Mm-hmm

    6. MS

      ... that as an endurance athlete I know I used to go, "Well, I can't, I can't afford to do that. I might get injured or I might, you know-

    7. LH

      Right

    8. MS

      ... I can't, like, I can't go skiing because I might twist a, twist a knee." Well, if you do the training right and you spend that time in the gym, you're less likely to twist a knee skiing than if you were, uh, you know, than, than if you were just going to the slopes without-

    9. LH

      Right

    10. MS

      ... having done any training at all.

    11. LH

      Sure, sure.

    12. MS

      Right? So, um, we, we, we want people to have a full life because training for endurance contests should be preparation for an undertaking that you would not want to encounter on a daily basis.

    13. LH

      Hmm. Hmm.

    14. MS

      You know, you wanna wake up in the morning and go, "Oof, I got that 10K today. I gotta go clean out my GI tract, I'm so nervous," you know? [laughs]

    15. LH

      [laughs] Right.

    16. MS

      But you wanna, you wanna be that nervous because-

    17. LH

      Yeah

    18. MS

      ... you wanna put it all on the line that day.

    19. LH

      Yeah.

    20. MS

      What we're saying is, don't put it all on the line every day in your training. Have fun. Um, you know, do the, do the-

    21. LH

      Mm-hmm

    22. MS

      ... right sort of training that builds this, this beast, that when you get to the race you're, you're gonna enjoy it, you're gonna have fun, you're gonna perform probably better than if you'd done the old paradigm of training.

    23. LH

      Right.

    24. MS

      But you'll have lived a life in the interim.

    25. LH

      Oh, yeah.

    26. MS

      I mean, I... So many of my, you know, ex-triathlete marathon buddies, you know, couldn't have a relationship. It was just-

    27. LH

      Mm-hmm

    28. MS

      ... you know, imagine-

    29. LH

      They put all their energy into this one thing.

    30. MS

      Yeah. I mean, they, you know, it's like, uh, the, the wife says, "Can't you stay home and cuddle, you know-

  17. 49:42 – 58:51

    Rapid-fire reflections: triathlon’s Olympic rule change, personal principles, gratitude, and greatness

    1. LH

      Hmm. Okay, cool. Um, couple questions left for you. This has been great information, and I want people to go check out primalblueprint.com so you can see all the books, especially Primal Endurance, the new one, but all the books, the products, everything else. If you wanna own a restaurant, you can learn about that, too. Um, a few questions left for you. What's a question that... You've done tons of interviews over the last decade alone from, from everything you've been doing. What's a question that no one's ever asked you you've always wanted the answer?

    2. MS

      Oh, wow. You should give me time to think about that one.

    3. LH

      [laughs]

    4. MS

      Uh-

    5. LH

      Is there anything that comes to mind?

    6. MS

      No. Um, 'cause I've been... I've done a lot of interviews, and I've been asked a lot of questions. Um, yeah, I'd, I'd have to give that some thought.

    7. LH

      Okay. What's something small you've done that you're really proud of that not a lot of people know about you?

    8. MS

      Um, it's, it's not that small, but not a lot of people know that I, um, uh, I helped get, uh, triathlon in the Olympic Games by changing, uh, dr- drastically changing one of the rules of the sport.

    9. LH

      Really? [laughs]

    10. MS

      Yeah.

    11. LH

      You got it in the Olympic Games?

    12. MS

      Well, I was... Uh, no, I, I didn't personally get it in, but I got... I was, I was on, uh, a board of the International Triathlon Union, which is, which was the international federation for the sport of triathlon.

    13. LH

      Wow.

    14. MS

      And for the first, uh, 15 years of triathlon, there was no drafting allowed on the bike, and I convinced, uh, the board to change that rule to allow drafting on the bike, which pissed off every, uh, every top triathlete in the world at the time. But it was the only way we, we could get it in the Olympic Games.

    15. LH

      Really?

    16. MS

      Yeah. So that's, that, that move allowed, uh, allowed us to have races where 50 people could be close to each other-

    17. LH

      Wow

    18. MS

      ... and you didn't, you didn't have to, to disqualify them for being too close for drafting. Um-

    19. LH

      Wow

    20. MS

      ... and it made for much, uh, more telegenic events and things like that.

    21. LH

      As opposed to just following one person at a time, right?

    22. MS

      Exactly, yeah. Exactly.

    23. LH

      Interesting.

    24. MS

      Yeah, yeah.

    25. LH

      Wow.

    26. MS

      So.

    27. LH

      And then you qualified for the Olympic trials, right?

    28. MS

      Uh, in the m- in the marathon, yeah.

    29. LH

      In the marathon.

    30. MS

      Yeah.

Episode duration: 58:55

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