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Lewis HowesLewis Howes

Therapist REVEALS Why Finding Love Is SO HARD...| Lori Gottlieb & Lewis Howes

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Lori GottliebguestLewis Howeshost
Nov 24, 20212h 15mWatch on YouTube

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Partial transcript

  1. 0:00 – 0:21

    Love’s “owner’s manual”: why partners keep repeating the same mistakes

    1. LG

      You see, it's kind of like they are giving you their owner's manual, but if you don't read it, then you're [laughs] gonna keep making the same mistakes-

    2. LH

      Right, right

    3. LG

      ... over and over. They're saying, "Here, let me tell you what happens for me when you do that," and if you ignore the operating instructions-

    4. LH

      I think you gotta have a dream.

    5. LG

      The School of Greatness.

    6. LH

      Really? [laughs] Yeah.

    7. LG

      Please welcome Lewis Howes.

  2. 0:21 – 1:14

    Why love feels so hard now: the closeness–fear paradox

    1. LH

      I wanted to ask you about why you think it's so hard for just, for people to find a partner today. In this climate, it seems like it's hard for people to find a great partner.

    2. LG

      Yeah.

    3. LH

      And then why is it hard to stay in a healthy, you know, thriving relationship when it just seems like so complicated and challenging for men and women or individuals coming together to be in a happy relationship?

    4. LG

      I think it is complicated because no one teaches us how to love and be loved.

    5. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. LG

      So you either get that modeling growing up, or sometimes you don't get the best modeling growing up. But people don't really talk about it in the way that I think people would need. And so I think one of the problems is that people both want closeness-

    7. LH

      Mm

    8. LG

      ... and they fear closeness at the exact same time.

    9. LH

      Right.

    10. LG

      And so people kinda walk on that tightrope, and a lot of people get tangled up in that paradox.

    11. LH

      Why do we want it so bad, and what is the thing we fear about it so much?

  3. 1:14 – 2:48

    Rupture and repair: the real predictor of relationship success

    1. LG

      Well, the thing we fear is, is that it's gonna wound us, right?

    2. LH

      Yeah.

    3. LG

      So I mean, love has the power to wound, but it also has the power to heal.

    4. LH

      Mm.

    5. LG

      So that's why we have that paradox-

    6. LH

      Mm

    7. LG

      ... because we want it, but we're a little bit afraid of what might happen. And by the way, if you sign up for this, you will get hurt. That's just, that's just part of the deal. Even with someone who really cares about you, even in a really loving relationship, at times you will hurt each other.

    8. LH

      Why then, why?

    9. LG

      But then how do you repair it?

    10. LH

      Ah.

    11. LG

      You know?

    12. LH

      Well, is there a way to get in a relationship without hurting each other?

    13. LG

      Um, [laughs] no, because people are human.

    14. LH

      Right.

    15. LG

      And, you know, when I'm talking about hurting, there's different degrees of hurting. You know, hurting could be you didn't understand me, and I felt really hurt by that.

    16. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    17. LG

      Right? Hurting could be something much more, you know, deleterious-

    18. LH

      Physical-

    19. LG

      Right

    20. LH

      ... or this or that or manipulative

    21. LG

      ... it could be awful. Right.

    22. LH

      Oh, yeah.

    23. LG

      Yeah, so that's something... Those are very different things.

    24. LH

      Yeah.

    25. LG

      Um, you know, but I think, I think what happens is people need to learn what we call rupture and repair.

    26. LH

      Mm.

    27. LG

      So there's a rupture, something happens between you, and then how do you repair it? There will always be ruptures.

    28. LH

      Really?

    29. LG

      Um, and, and so, you know, how do you, how do you guys repair it together? That's the biggest predictor of whether a relationship is gonna be successful and people are gonna be happy in it.

    30. LH

      Your ability to repair.

  4. 2:48 – 3:21

    “I understand you”: feeling understood as a form of love

    1. LG

      Um, I remember one of the most formative things that happened for me was very early on when I started seeing couples. I had this couple come in, and I remember that they were... there was a lot of tension between them. And the woman said to her husband, she said, "You know what three words I really wanna hear from you?" And he said, what do you think?

    2. LH

      I love you.

    3. LG

      I love you, right? And she said, "No. The three words I wanna hear are 'I understand you.'"

    4. LH

      Mm.

    5. LG

      And I just sort of sat there in my seat-

    6. LH

      Wow

    7. LG

      ... and thought, wow, I understand you. That understanding someone is a way of showing love.

    8. LH

      Really?

  5. 3:21 – 6:22

    Separate realities: intention vs impact and the gap that causes fights

    1. LG

      Making the effort to really listen to them, to hear their point of view, and this is where, as a couples therapist, the idea of separate realities comes in.

    2. LH

      Okay. Tell me more.

    3. LG

      So separate realities is we have to acknowledge that you are going to view things through your own lens, and both of them are right.

    4. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    5. LG

      Both of them are valid. And where people get into trouble is they try to convince the other person that their reality is right.

    6. LH

      Ah, yes.

    7. LG

      So you see this, for example, take an example of a parent and an adult child, and you have the parent who, you know, the adult child comes to them and says, "I feel like you really favored my sibling growing up."

    8. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    9. LG

      And the parent says, "That's not true. We love you both equally. We were there for you." And they hear it as an accusation, so you have a choice in that moment. You can say, "Okay, I'm gonna defend myself against this accusation," and what the parent hears is, "You were a bad parent."

    10. LH

      Mm.

    11. LG

      That's not what the kid is saying. The kid is saying, um, "You weren't there for me in the ways that I needed you to be sometimes."

    12. LH

      Yes, sometimes, yeah.

    13. LG

      It's a v- sometimes. It's not black or white.

    14. LH

      Right.

    15. LG

      It's not all or nothing. It's not good or bad. It just is in that messy middle.

    16. LH

      Right.

    17. LG

      And so you can say, "I'm gonna try to understand your reality, even though there's a gap between my, what I intended and what you experienced."

    18. LH

      Mm.

    19. LG

      That's okay that there's a gap.

    20. LH

      Right.

    21. LG

      So where romantic couples get into it is the same thing. There's a gap between my intention-

    22. LH

      Oh, my gosh

    23. LG

      ... and your experience of me.

    24. LH

      Right.

    25. LG

      And I'm going to make you believe that my intention trumps your experience of me.

    26. LH

      [laughs] Right, but my intention was good. I meant to say it this way.

    27. LG

      Right.

    28. LH

      I meant for you to be understood. But the other person's like, "Well, that's not what I felt."

    29. LG

      Well, what happens is, so, so you see this in therapy, right? So somebody says, "Well, well, that's not what I intended," and I will say to them, "It doesn't matter that that's what you intended. It did. It had that effect."

    30. LH

      Right.

  6. 6:22 – 8:28

    Needs, love languages, and actually listening to how someone wants love

    1. LH

      What if the operating instructions is completely against who you are? Like your, [sighs] I don't know, let's just say your love language is you like giving physical touch, but the other person likes receiving gifts or acts of service, for an example, and you're like, "This is draining for me to do this thing that the person wants or feels loved by. It feels like so much effort and work." Is there a way to make it so that your strength is actually something they love?

    2. LG

      Yeah. Well, let's, let's turn this around.

    3. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    4. LG

      So if, if your partner said to you, "It's too draining for me to actually love you in the way you like to be loved."

    5. LH

      [laughs]

    6. LG

      [laughs]

    7. LH

      Yeah, it sounds crazy.

    8. LG

      Right?

    9. LH

      It sounds not-

    10. LG

      It's too draining for me-

    11. LH

      Yeah

    12. LG

      ... to make the effort to show you love in the way that makes you feel good.

    13. LH

      Right. Yeah, it sounds...

    14. LG

      That's, you know... There, there was an episode on our podcast. We have this podcast called Dear Therapists, where we do actual sessions with people.

    15. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    16. LG

      And then at the end, we give them homework, where they have to try out the advice, and they report back within a week. And so you can see, because we want people to see that actually even one conversation can help you make real shifts in your perspective. And so we had this mother and daughter on, and the mother... This was during COVID. And the, the mother, like, brought over the d- she said, like, "I have all these homemade masks and I'm gonna bring them to you." And the daughter said, "I really don't want those." And what does the mother do? She brings over-

    17. LH

      Brings her anyways

    18. LG

      ... the masks 'cause she's like, "I'm showing that I care about you. I wanna keep you safe, and this is a way for me to show that I care about you." And she's like, "And I also brought over cookies for the kids, and I brought all over these other things, and the one thing you picked out was that I brought the masks, and that was a loving gesture." And the daughter's like, "No, it actually was not [laughs] a loving gesture because I told you specifically I don't want that."

    19. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    20. LG

      So why do we have such a hard time listening to people when they tell us exactly how they want to be loved? It's not that hard to not bring the masks.

    21. LH

      Right. Then why do we do it? Is it because we feel like we, that's how we wanna live our lives? Or why do we do those things?

    22. LG

      Right. Because we aren't, we're paying attention to our needs-

    23. LH

      Ah

    24. LG

      ... and we're not paying attention to the other person's needs. And this is the primary problem in most relationships, whether they're romantic relationships-

  7. 8:28 – 14:51

    From “me vs you” to “us”: rebuilding after betrayal and the loneliness underneath

    1. LH

      Mm

    2. LG

      ... friendships, siblings, work, whatever it is, um, is that people think about the me or the you. Like, am I the problem, are you the problem, as opposed to we have a problem, the us, right? We have a problem. I had this, I had this couple-

    3. LH

      Mm

    4. LG

      ... in therapy. Um, he had had an affair, and they both wanted to repair the marriage.

    5. LH

      Okay.

    6. LG

      So they were both interested in that.

    7. LH

      So there was a rupture.

    8. LG

      There was a rupture-

    9. LH

      And they both-

    10. LG

      ... and a big rupture, right?

    11. LH

      Yeah, yeah.

    12. LG

      Af- affairs are, are these incredibly painful betrayals. And he was all in in wanting to repair this. And-

    13. LH

      He took ownership. He said, "I'm sorry."

    14. LG

      He did. He did.

    15. LH

      "I wanna make this work." She said, "Okay, I wanna figure out how to apol- or how to accept this apology and forgive and move on as well."

    16. LG

      I wanna figure out what, what do we do? Is it, who are we as a couple now?

    17. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    18. LG

      What does this mean? How do we move forward?

    19. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    20. LG

      And he was not a person who was used to opening up, and a lot of men experience this. They don't know how to be vulnerable.

    21. LH

      Yes.

    22. LG

      They're afraid to be vulnerable. And so many men will come in, by the way, to my practice, and they'll say, "I've never told anyone this before."

    23. LH

      Of course.

    24. LG

      They've literally never told anyone. Women come in, they say, "I've never told anyone this before, except for my mother, my sister, my best friend," right?

    25. LH

      [laughs]

    26. LG

      So they feel like they haven't told anyone-

    27. LH

      Mm-hmm

    28. LG

      ... but they actually have. So he's, he opens up for the first time and he says, it was almost like a whisper, he could barely say it, and he said, "I'm so lonely."

    29. LH

      Wow.

    30. LG

      And it was-

  8. 14:51 – 21:32

    The obsession with “why”: nuance, no guarantees, and many causes of affairs

    1. LH

      Right. Right. What is the, um, what's the reason why people wanna know why the other person did something?

    2. LG

      Yeah.

    3. LH

      Like, you cheated. Why does the s- the partner always wanna know why? Why did you do this? Was I not doing enough of this?

    4. LG

      Mm.

    5. LH

      What is the reason behind that and is that beneficial to wanna know why the person cheated or lied or manipulated or whatever thing they did?

    6. LG

      I think why is important, but why is not simple.

    7. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    8. LG

      So I think what they want is a simple why. Like, you know, con- let me connect the dots. I cheated because of X.

    9. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. LG

      And then it's like, oh, that makes sense.

    11. LH

      Right. [laughs] It does always make sense why you cheat.

    12. LG

      So we, so we don't, so we, so then we can just avoid X and it'll never happen again. Have you ever had the situation where you find out that a friend, like somebody cheated in a friend's relationship, and everybody is asking, "Well, what happened? Why?" And the reason they wanna know is not so much that they're concerned for their friend, of course they are, but because they wanna know, "Oh, I don't want that to happen in my relationship."

    13. LH

      Mm.

    14. LG

      "So if I can find out why it happened in your relationship, I can make sure that that doesn't happen in mine."

    15. LH

      Wow.

    16. LG

      And I think that when it happens in your own relationship, you think if we can figure out the why, then we can make sure it will never happen again. People want guarantees, but there are no guarantees.

    17. LH

      No guarantee.

    18. LG

      And the reasons that people have relationships are very nuanced. It's not like, "Well, my father died and I was feeling dead, so I wanted to feel alive again." Maybe that's part of it.

    19. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    20. LG

      But there might be other reasons, too.

    21. LH

      Why they have affairs, you mean?

    22. LG

      Yes.

    23. LH

      Yeah.

    24. LG

      Yes, yes. So people always think that if I know why... And by the way, like in that example of him saying, "I was really lonely," you know, there was a why. It did not bring relief.

    25. LH

      Right. Yeah, yeah.

    26. LG

      You think it's like, oh, if I solve the mystery, then I'm gonna feel like some sense of, of healing, of relief. No, you really have to deal with what's in front of you right now.

    27. LH

      From all the cases you've, uh, experienced, what are the three main causes of cheating or someone having an affair?

    28. LG

      Well, that's the thing. There are so many, right?

    29. LH

      Really?

    30. LG

      So it could be something going on in the relationship, like there's a lack of connection, someone's trying to control the other person.

  9. 21:32 – 29:23

    Defining betrayal and setting explicit boundaries (including friendships)

    1. LG

      Sometimes. And by the way, 'cause we don't know how to define affairs.

    2. LH

      Right.

    3. LG

      Everybody defines it differently. So it's kind of like people think, when I'm with my partner, because we see the world through a similar lens, we're going to agree on what betrayal means. What does it mean to cheat? What does an affair actually mean? And you'll find that people have wildly different definitions. Is-

    4. LH

      Like what's the range?

    5. LG

      Is cheating, is cheating you have been getting together with your ex, even though it's completely on the up and up. You've been getting together with your ex, but you didn't tell me you were having these lunches with your ex.

    6. LH

      Mm.

    7. LG

      That feels like a betrayal to me. I should have known about it. Even if nothing's happening, I should have known about it.

    8. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    9. LG

      Um-

    10. LH

      That may seem like an affair to some people.

    11. LG

      It seems like a betrayal.

    12. LH

      Betrayal.

    13. LG

      We can call it a betrayal.

    14. LH

      Got you. Betrayal.

    15. LG

      Yeah. Um, or someone will say, like, "You're having an emotional affair with this person." How do you define that? What does that actually mean?

    16. LH

      Right.

    17. LG

      You might have different definitions of that. Like, why can't I have a friend who is, you know, who is not a romantic partner, but you see this person as, as threatening.

    18. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    19. LG

      But this person is not threatening.

    20. LH

      Right.

    21. LG

      Um, you know-

    22. LH

      Do you think, do you think people can have, um, opposite sex friends while they're in marriages?

    23. LG

      Yeah. Absolutely.

    24. LH

      And, and, and, and the partner can be-

    25. LG

      But, but the, but the, but the boundaries, the lines have to be explicit.

    26. LH

      Mm.

    27. LG

      Like what do you and your partner say about what those lines are so that you'll know when they're crossed?

    28. LH

      Gotcha.

    29. LG

      If you haven't talked about what those lines are, you don't know when they're crossed.

    30. LH

      That makes sense.

  10. 29:23 – 40:02

    Narcissistic traits, the “Jekyll and Hyde” dynamic, and why people get hooked

    1. LG

      Um, you see this with narcissistic people a lot, and I-

    2. LH

      Yes

    3. LG

      ... I don't like to use diagnostic terms very much because I think the behavior is more important than the, the diagnosis. Um, but when we look at narcissistic traits, for example, um, we all know people who have been with someone-

    4. LH

      Mm

    5. LG

      ... who is incredibly charming-

    6. LH

      Mm

    7. LG

      ... incredibly confident, incredibly into you, um, in this way that makes you feel like you are the center of the universe, you're the center of this person's universe, and then they do something so callous.

    8. LH

      Like what?

    9. LG

      So... I mean, you know, something that they just, they lack empathy.

    10. LH

      Yeah.

    11. LG

      Um, in a moment when, um, you know, like your, your mother died, and they didn't show up for you in the way that you would expect.

    12. LH

      Right.

    13. LG

      Um, or even just something on a daily basis. You know, just something where, like, their needs were so much more important than yours. Um, we had on, on the Dear Therapists podcast, we just did an episode called, um, I think it was, like, Audrey's Narcissistic Ex-Husband. And again, we don't, we haven't met him, so we cannot-

    14. LH

      Mm

    15. LG

      ... give him a diagnosis. Um, and I don't even know that he, you know, fits the diagnosis. But her perception in the marriage was just that his needs came above hers, but she said, "I was addicted to his approval." His approval meant everything to me.

    16. LH

      Mm.

    17. LG

      The fact that he could have had anybody, and he chose me.

    18. LH

      Mm.

    19. LG

      So we all get sort of swayed by those people. It's very easy to get swayed by those people. Some people figure it out before they get into a relationship with them [laughs] that, oh, wait a minute, you know, this feels really good for a moment, but this isn't what I wanna live with.

    20. LH

      This isn't my vision, this isn't... Yeah.

    21. LG

      Right, right. But other people, you know, it takes them a long time to kind of figure it out. Um, and so for her, she was so damaged by it. Then they, they got divorced-

    22. LH

      Mm-hmm

    23. LG

      ... and he was about to get remarried, and it's been seven years since they got divorced, and she's still so damaged by it-

    24. LH

      Really?

    25. LG

      ... because she never processed it. She never understood her own role in it. Why was she with him?

    26. LH

      Hmm.

    27. LG

      So I think it's easy to blame the, the person who's n- you know, narcissistic and-

    28. LH

      But you chose to be in a relationship and stay in the relationship at the same time. It was-

    29. LG

      Well, well, what, what was the draw for you? You know-

    30. LH

      Right

  11. 40:02 – 48:13

    Wise compassion, how couples therapy works, and why you can’t change your partner

    1. LH

      Mm-hmm

    2. LG

      ... you know, and in the book, I talk about the difference between idiot compassion and wise compassion. So idiot compassion is what we do with our friends, who your friends say, like, "Listen to what my partner did," or my mom, or my, you know, my kid, or my sibling, or whatever it is. And we say, "Yeah, that's terrible. You're right. How dare they?" You know? [laughs]

    3. LH

      Right.

    4. LG

      "You're right. They're wrong." It's, it's just we, we just back them up blindly because we think we're being supportive. But if you actually listen to your friends over time, you might hear that there's a pattern, that they are kind of complaining about similar types of things. It's kind of like if a fight breaks out in every bar you're going to, maybe it's you.

    5. LH

      Right. [laughs]

    6. LG

      We don't say that in idiot compassion.

    7. LH

      Right. I hear you. [laughs]

    8. LG

      So in, in therapy, what we offer is we offer wise compassion.

    9. LH

      Mm.

    10. LG

      And in wise compassion, we hold up a mirror to you-

    11. LH

      Mm

    12. LG

      ... to help you to see yourself in ways that maybe you haven't been willing or able to do. And compassion is the key word here, because we're doing it compassionately. So someone who comes in and they're-

    13. LH

      Right

    14. LG

      ... not able to self-reflect, they're not able to see their reflection in the mirror and say, "Yes, oh, I have a role in this, too. Yes, it's true the other person does this, but I have a role in this, too." So when you were asking about change, when people come in for couples therapy, I always give them an assignment before they come in, and the assignment is this. 'Cause normally the first thing that'll happen if I don't is they're gonna come in and they're gonna name all the ways that their partner needs to change, and then we get nowhere. So I say to them, "I want you to come up with how you can make this relationship better. I want you to come up with what you're going to do. What are you going to be working on to make this relationship better, even if your partner never changes?" And they each have this assignment. So from day one, they come in, and even though they m- they might have a lot of reasons that, you know, things aren't working out that they think are, are their, their partner's issue, um, their goal in therapy is to work on the one thing or the two things or the three things that they think they can do to make the relationship better. And it changes the whole course of the couples therapy, because it's not about changing the other person. The magic of this is that they say, "Well, what's the point of doing it if they're not gonna change?" Well, first of all, again, going from the me and the, and the you to the us is things are gonna go more smoothly, because you're gonna be doing something to improve the relationship.

    15. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    16. LG

      But the other part of it is, and where the magic comes in, is you can't change another person, but you can influence change-

    17. LH

      Mm

    18. LG

      ... in another person.

    19. LH

      Absolutely.

    20. LG

      So when you do something differently, you are helping the other person to change.

    21. LH

      Mm.

    22. LG

      No one changes because you say, "I want you to change in this way." That doesn't really happen. They might do it. You know, they might pay lip service to it. It doesn't really last. But if you start changing, if you make it easier, you help them to change by making it easier for them to change. So let's say they really need space. Give them some space. Let's say, you know, you try to control them less. Let's say that-

    23. LH

      Mm

    24. LG

      ... you don't engage in the same familiar argument over and over and over. Um, you, maybe you do something kind for them, and then people say about that, they say, "Well, why should I do something kind? Why should I go first? If they would be nice to me-

    25. LH

      Mm-hmm

    26. LG

      ... I'll be nice to them."

    27. LH

      Mm.

    28. LG

      Uh, it doesn't matter. You need to go first because someone needs to do something.

    29. LH

      Someone needs to.

    30. LG

      Someone needs to change the dynamic. It's like a dance, and so if you do something nice for them, you might notice that they, not because it's a tit for tat, not because they're doing it because you do, it's because they feel safer.

  12. 48:13 – 57:41

    Healing in relationship: safety, emotional regulation, and how to listen in hard moments

    1. LG

      And, and the thing is that, that we expect our partners to do that healing for us. The person who's going to heal us is ourselves.

    2. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    3. LG

      And that is, goes against everything we believe about love, and when I said at the beginning of our conversation that love can wound but also love can heal, what I mean is that if you can heal yourself in the context of a loving relationship.

    4. LH

      Right. Not, the other person healed me.

    5. LG

      Right. The other person didn't heal me, but I was healing myself and the other person-

    6. LH

      Ooh

    7. LG

      ... was there-

    8. LH

      Ooh

    9. LG

      ... as I was doing it, and the other person was healing themselves as well. And, and what happens is-

    10. LH

      Mm

    11. LG

      ... you learn how to heal yourself because you have the safe environment in which to do it.

    12. LH

      Yeah.

    13. LG

      If you have an environment that's not safe, you're not gonna feel safe enough to do the work that you need to do to heal yourself.

    14. LH

      Wow. So what does a safe environment look for another partner to feel, "I'm safe"-

    15. LG

      Mm-hmm

    16. LH

      ... uh, and I can process the things I need to process in a healthy manner?

    17. LG

      That your partner can handle the truth of who you are

    18. LH

      Ooh. All the messiness of you.

    19. LG

      All of it

    20. LH

      ... all the stuff in your past.

    21. LG

      As long as, as long as you're kind.

    22. LH

      All right

    23. LG

      ... that your partner can handle the truth of who you are, that you can show up, you can be authentic. They're not gonna judge you. They're not gonna use it against you and say, "Ah, yeah, see, that thing that you told me, like, three months ago, that's why you're doing this thing right now."

    24. LH

      Oh, man.

    25. LG

      No. [laughs]

    26. LH

      Never do that.

    27. LG

      Don't do that. Don't use it against them.

    28. LH

      Wow.

    29. LG

      Um, you know, "You're just like your mother." Don't do that.

    30. LH

      That's the worst thing probably.

  13. 57:41 – 1:06:40

    Breakups, forgiveness, and the “dry well”: stopping repetition compulsion

    1. LG

      Well, first of all, you've used the word forgiveness a little bit, so I just wanna talk about that for a second

    2. LH

      Okay

    3. LG

      So I think there's this idea that if we forgive someone that we will be set free in some way

    4. LH

      Uh-huh

    5. LG

      And I don't think that's always the case. We have this expression forced forgiveness-

    6. LH

      Mm

    7. LG

      ... which is like, you know, you don't actually forgive the person, whether it's a parent or an ex or, you know, someone who really wounded you. You don't have to forgive them. And I think with parents, it's easy to say, "I can have compassion for them now as an adult because I see what their life was like, or I see what their struggles were. I see that they had mental health issues," or whatever it is, or, "I see how hard their upbringing was, but I don't necessarily forgive what they took from me-

    8. LH

      The action or whatever

    9. LG

      ... in my childhood-

    10. LH

      Mm

    11. LG

      ... or how they treated me."

    12. LH

      So you're saying it's sometimes it's good not to forgive. It's okay not to forgive

    13. LG

      I, I'm, I'm saying, I'm saying if you truly forgive that person, great, but that's not necessarily the goal. It doesn't make you less of a person. It doesn't make you less evolved because you can have compassion, but not forgiveness

    14. LH

      Mm-hmm. Yeah

    15. LG

      And the same with an ex. If someone really hurt you, maybe you can have compassion for the woundedness in them that made them treat you in that way. But you don't necessarily have to forgive them. In fact, I think that can do more damage than good when you tell yourself that you forgive someone when you actually don't. That forced forgiveness can be a trap-

    16. LH

      Yeah

    17. LG

      ... and it can leave you in a stuck position for much longer than you would be if you just acknowledge that I don't actually forgive them. I can see that they were wounded. I'm not going to put myself in that position. I'm going to choose a different kind of partner next time

    18. LH

      Right. I'm not gonna... I don't need to beat myself up or hold a grudge anymore, but I don't wanna forgive. Is there a way to, like, not hurt yourself and still not forgive?

    19. LG

      But why am I... Why is so much of my emotional real estate going in that direction?

    20. LH

      Mm-hmm

    21. LG

      You know, it's like we only have so much emotional real estate.

    22. LH

      Right

    23. LG

      How much time are you thinking about, thinking of this other person? We had this... Again, I keep talking about the podcast because these are such common issues, that on the Dear Therapists podcast, we had this, this woman come on, and she was spending so much emotional real estate on this person who, this person who had treated her badly. And, and, and we were like, "You are spending so much time on this that you are not even available for another person right now. You are not available. You won't even think about people who are, who are..." It's kind of like I use this analogy, the dry well, that there are people who they keep going back to the dry well. They know there's no water there

    24. LH

      Mm

    25. LG

      They know that there's, like, an emotional void there, and they keep going back every day expecting that there's gonna be water there. And then-

    26. LH

      Just thinking about it or trying to talk to them or-

    27. LG

      Thinking like... Yeah, like thinking like, "I'm gonna keep trying to get this. Like, this time you're gonna be emotionally..." The person's never been emotionally there for you in the way that you want

    28. LH

      What should they do? Just move on then or-

    29. LG

      So it's like go where the water is

    30. LH

      Mm-hmm

  14. 1:06:40 – 1:16:57

    What a healthy match looks like: attachment, deposits vs withdrawals, and character qualities

    1. LH

      Man, that's powerful. What would you say, um... If someone's getting into a relationship, a new relationship, when would they know... What would the signs be that this is the, the environment of a really great match for both of you? What would that environment look like or those things happening look like or feel like?

    2. LG

      It depends who you are. So if you're someone, again, who grew up with, you know, what we call secure attachment, then, um, what looks good to you is what you saw growing up, that you guys-

    3. LH

      Mm-hmm

    4. LG

      ... you know, you might have disagreements, but there's a, there's a lot of goodwill. You know, there's that... The Gottmans, who are these marital researchers, they always said you need... You know, we, we talk about the goodwill bank, that you need to put five deposits into the goodwill bank for every one withdrawal that you make.

    5. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. LG

      So, you know, do you have that five to one ratio? Are there, like, five positive interactions between the two of you for every sort of difficult interaction-

    7. LH

      Sure

    8. LG

      ... between the two of you?

    9. LH

      'Cause if it's five difficult and one positive, the relationship's not gonna work.

    10. LG

      It's, it's, it's... Well, w- again, it's not gonna work, but if you grew up, again, with, with this other kind of modeling, um, then-

    11. LH

      Secure attachment or-

    12. LG

      Insecure attachment

    13. LH

      ... insecure attachment.

    14. LG

      I- insecure attachment. And you see-

    15. LH

      Insecure attachment. Secure attachment is what you want, right?

    16. LG

      You want secure attachment, right.

    17. LH

      Insecure attachment is...

    18. LG

      Is you grew up, you grew up with, you know, different... There are different ... versions of it. Um, you got too much of something, not enough of the other thing, whatever it is.

    19. LH

      Yeah.

    20. LG

      But in, but in a way that was exaggerated, in a way-

    21. LH

      Gotcha

    22. LG

      ... that it really affected you. So, you know, we talk about the good enough parent, like, no parent is perfect.

    23. LH

      Right.

    24. LG

      Um, so it's more about being the good enough parent. That's secure attachment. But if there was, you know, like, a c- a constancy to the enmeshment or the, or the withdrawal, or the neglect, or the chaos, or the anger, or whatever it was, um, or the, you know, the parent who was really inconsistent-

    25. LH

      Mm-hmm

    26. LG

      ... um, which is really confusing for kids. Like, one minute the parent is like this, the next minute the parent is like that.

    27. LH

      So they're more insecure attachment.

    28. LG

      Right. Right. And then, so then if you're in that relationship, that might feel normal to you as an adult.

    29. LH

      But is that healthy?

    30. LG

      No, of course not. [laughs]

  15. 1:16:57 – 1:45:04

    Red flags, unrealistic expectations, and why partners can’t “save” you

    1. LH

      Yeah. What would you say are the biggest red flags, then, women should look for when entering a relationship?

    2. LG

      Well, I think it's not a gendered thing.

    3. LH

      People. Yeah.

    4. LG

      You know, I think, I think people. I think you, you know, you look for just how, how do I feel around this person?

    5. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. LG

      Um, you know, do I, do I feel on edge? Is there something... You know, I think even when people are ignoring the problems, there's a place of knowing that we all have inside of us that gets drowned out by all the noise out there, right? The bigger voice is like, "I really want this to work out," or, "Look at, look at how great, you know, on paper this person is."

    7. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    8. LG

      Or, or, "I feel really good about myself 'cause this person's a catch." You know?

    9. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. LG

      Or whatever it is. Or, "I'm this age and I really feel like, yeah, you know, what happens if I don't, if I give this up? What if I don't find somebody?" Those are those really loud voices. There might be this really quiet voice that says, "I don't think this person is the right person for me." Or-

    11. LH

      Wow

    12. LG

      ... "I don't really trust this person," or, "This person isn't really as stable as I would like."

    13. LH

      Mm.

    14. LG

      Or, "This person drinks too much," or, "This person doesn't really emotionally regulate," or, "This person says mean things to me and I don't like that. And yeah, they were drunk, but I don't like it."

    15. LH

      Right. And be aware of that.

    16. LG

      Yes.

    17. LH

      If they continue doing this, which they probably will or may, are you okay with that?

    18. LG

      Right. Well, if you talk to them about it-

    19. LH

      Mm-hmm

    20. LG

      ... and what does that look, again, the repair, and then do they change their behavior-

    21. LH

      Mm

    22. LG

      ... as a result of that?

    23. LH

      Right. If they don't change the behavior, then-

    24. LG

      Right

    25. LH

      ... you know you're staying.

    26. LG

      So then you can make... Right. You can justify it any way you want-

    27. LH

      Mm-hmm

    28. LG

      ... but you're not listening to that voice inside of you. So I think we all have this place of knowing it's not your friends' opinions. Like, you know, it's always like, I think your friends have all these opinions, and then we try to like crowdsource.

    29. LH

      Mm.

    30. LG

      Whether it-

  16. 1:45:04 – 1:56:30

    Online dating, “don’t settle,” and why chemistry can mislead

    1. LH

      Yes. And what about, um, the online world? How have you seen this as a therapist, the online world, uh, supported or hurt relationships? You know, is online dating-

    2. LG

      Mm-hmm

    3. LH

      ... and overall, have you seen it be a positive thing? And also, is just social media-

    4. LG

      Mm-hmm

    5. LH

      ... hurtful or helpful when in that relationship with someone?

    6. LG

      And I would say to both social media and online dating, both and.

    7. LH

      Yes.

    8. LG

      Um, I think the online dating makes it, um, possible for people to meet who ordinarily would not meet. Um, but that's really all it does.

    9. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    10. LG

      So it's not like, you know, it's like we used to meet people in a much more organic way, but we don't do that anymore. So now you can meet people, and it makes it a lot easier. Um, the downside of that is that-

    11. LH

      Mm-hmm

    12. LG

      ... there's this illusion with, uh, online dating and apps that, you know, you go out on a date... I hear this all the time from people. They went out on a date, they had a good time, no butterflies, but it was, they had a really good time. Like, they, they spent three hours there. [laughs] Like they-

    13. LH

      Right, right, right

    14. LG

      ... you know, they had a pretty good time. Um, but yeah, no, you know, I don't know, I just didn't feel like the chemistry or, I don't know, or whatever it was. And so, you know, but there's this other guy, you know, whatever, so then they, like keep going through the apps as opposed to, why wouldn't you go on a second date with that person that you just had a pretty good three hours with? Like, spend another two or three hours with that person. Even spend one hour, and you do it, do coffee so you can get out, you know, easily if you need to.

    15. LH

      Yes.

    16. LG

      Um, but you had a pretty good time, and I think people think that, like, it's gotta all be there-

    17. LH

      Mm

    18. LG

      ... right away. And actually, they did these studies where they followed couples over 20 years, this longitudinal study, and what they did was they didn't do reporting where you look back and you say, "What was your first date like?" They actually did reporting at the time. So they got all of these reports, you know, they followed them every five years, and they would interview them. And the people who were happy 20 years later, when they recalled their first date, they would say, "Oh yeah, I was so into him. I was so into her. It was amazing." Right? In those reports, often they would find what they reported at the time was, "Really nice person."

    19. LH

      [laughs]

    20. LG

      You know? Like, "Yeah, no, I had a good time."

    21. LH

      Really?

    22. LG

      Like, like there wasn't, like, this magnetic attraction.

    23. LH

      This explosion of the butterflies and the-

    24. LG

      Right. Sometimes there was, but in more cases than not, there wasn't.

    25. LH

      Really?

    26. LG

      And then when you looked at people who were, like, divorced or really unhappy but still married and you ask them about it, they're like-

    27. LH

      The chemistry was-

    28. LG

      ... "I didn't, I didn't really like him that much."

    29. LH

      Oh, really? In the beginning.

    30. LG

      "I didn't..." So they've, they've revised the story.

  17. 1:56:30 – 2:09:08

    Vulnerability and safety for men: cultural scripts, disclaimers, and what to do when he cries

    1. LH

      Hmm.

    2. LG

      Like I had this couple where, um, you know, it was a heterosexual couple, and she said to her, her, to her husband- I just, I feel I, I wanna get closer to you. I feel like, you know, I wanna know what's going on with you. I wish you would share more with me about your inner life. I feel like there's this distance between us. And he was like this guy's guy, right? And finally, finally, he, um, he opens up to her and he, he gets a little tear.

    3. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    4. LG

      And I see her body, I'm watching her, and she's, she's sort of, she's there with him, right? And then he starts crying. He starts talking about something really difficult that he, he has been holding in for a really long time. And she, on the one hand, feels so much compassion for him, and on the other hand, she's terrified because, you know, she kinda looks at me like, "What do I do now?" Um, and so it was this interesting thing in our culture about safety-

    5. LH

      Yeah

    6. LG

      ... with men and vulnerability.

    7. LH

      Yes.

    8. LG

      Because on the one hand, she's saying to him, "I don't feel safe when you don't share with me."

    9. LH

      Oh.

    10. LG

      "I feel distance from you. I feel separated from you. I feel disconnected from you. I don't feel safe in our relationship when you're over there and I'm over here and we are not meeting. But on the other hand, if you start crying in front of me like that, and you really are vulnerable, and you let down your guard like that, I also don't feel safe. Not because of anything you did wrong, but because I've been told by society that you are weak when you do that."

    11. LH

      Mm.

    12. LG

      Right? Like, "I feel like-"

    13. LH

      Yeah

    14. LG

      ... "you are the, now not my rock, and you are now str- you are not strong for me."

    15. LH

      Yes.

    16. LG

      "And I didn't even realize I had those perceptions. I didn't realize that that's how I grew up, but that's what society's been telling me. That when a man cries like that in front of me, that he's weak, and now I don't feel safe, and that somehow as a woman, I'm weak if I don't have a man to be strong for me."

    17. LH

      Mm.

    18. LG

      So we had to talk about all of these, all of these ideas that have been, you know, we've been brainwashed.

    19. LH

      Yes.

    20. LG

      And so then we have to, like, do the un-brainwashing, and then they could actually come closer to each other, and he didn't have to be the rock all the time, and she didn't have to feel like, "You have to save me all the time."

    21. LH

      I'm so happy you said this, Lori, because I wrote a book about this a few years back called The Mask of Masculinity, and I went on tour. I don't know if I told you this before, but I went on tour to talk about this. And the rooms were typically 50/50 men and women who were in the rooms. And I would say this exact thing that... Like, women would say, "Well, I wish my, my partner or my husband were, were more sensitive or emotional or vulnerable, and open up." And I'd say, "Well, you've gotta learn to be there and be able to handle it." Because I've talked to so many men who say, "You know what? My wife keeps telling me they wanna do this, and I finally do it. And then they're like, 'Well, I need you to be strong.'"

    22. LG

      Yes.

    23. LH

      "And now I don't feel safe." Exactly what you said. I was like, I'm so glad you said this from a therapist point of view, and not just, you know, a guy saying this. But I'm so glad that you're saying this, and that you've witnessed this with your, your couples that have come in, and you've actually seen this.

    24. LG

      Well, I'll tell you-

    25. LH

      Because I feel like it's, it's so hard for men to wanna express their vulnerabilities. And if they don't f- And I had a previous girlfriend that I would cry in front of.

    26. LG

      Mm-hmm.

    27. LH

      That I would show, you know, my vulnerabilities, and was freely doing it. I never held back, 'cause I was comfortable doing it myself in certain moments. You know, when I'd see something on TV or a movie or a sensitive thing, I would show emotion. And it's like she couldn't handle it. It's like she could not handle it, and she was like, "Crying is weakness." And she didn't cry in front of me. And I was just like, "Man, you w- you're never gonna have respect for me if you think I'm weak for showing vulnerabilities. And then why would I wanna be vulnerable around you if you're gonna disrespect me? I'm gonna wanna gain your respect, and I'm gonna wanna get harder and have a wall." Which luckily I didn't do, but I feel like in general, a lot of men do that.

    28. LG

      Well, what you're doing is you're being really courageous.

    29. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    30. LG

      Right? So I think it takes an incredible act of bravery to say to somebody, "This is who I am."

  18. 2:09:08 – 2:14:34

    Closing: take responsibility for your healing + books, workbook, and three truths

    1. LG

      And take care of your own healing.

    2. LH

      Mm. Yeah.

    3. LG

      Do the work. Don't expect someone else to do it for you. Do the work.

    4. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    5. LG

      And bring that work to the relationship.

    6. LH

      I love this. I love this. Um, you've got an amazing book, Maybe You Should Talk to Someone. I feel like this is, uh, such a game changer for so many people, so make sure you guys pick up a copy of this book. You also have a workbook, same title, Maybe We Should Talk to Someone Workbook.

    7. LG

      The workbook, it's called-

    8. LH

      The workbook

    9. LG

      ... How Changing Your Story Can Change Your Life, and it takes people through the process of rewriting their story and getting a much more accurate, accurate version of their story.

    10. LH

      Which is a game changer for your healing process to rewrite the story of the past, right?

    11. LG

      Yes, and even the, the faulty narratives that we carry around in the present.

    12. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    13. LG

      We carry around all these faulty narratives. You know, I'm unlovable, I can't trust anyone, nothing will ever work out for me. How do you rewrite those narratives?

    14. LH

      Yes.

    15. LG

      Yeah.

    16. LH

      And so this workbook-

    17. LG

      The workbook takes you through a step-by-step process of doing that. It's based on Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, the book, but it's also based on my TED Talk, which is about how changing your story can change your life.

    18. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    19. LG

      Um, and, um, you know, everybody said when Maybe You Should Talk to Someone came out, they said, "I learned so much from the book, but I wanna be... Uh, like, I want, I want a guide to do that." And so I put together this guide for everybody who has been asking for it.

    20. LH

      Mm.

    21. LG

      And I really wanted to give people the experience of what I do with people in the therapy room, how I help them edit their stories.

    22. LH

      Yes.

    23. LG

      Yeah.

    24. LH

      Yeah. Where can we get that, the workbook?

    25. LG

      Um, wherever you buy, Amazon, independent bookstores, wherever you get your books.

    26. LH

      It's all there.

    27. LG

      It's all there.

    28. LH

      And where's the... And everything, uh, the podcast-

    29. LG

      The podcast

    30. LH

      ... everything's on your website too, right?

Episode duration: 2:15:56

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