This Is Why 80% Of Relationships DON'T LAST (Fix This Today!) | Esther Perel

Esther Perel 0:00 I have two firefighter pilots. They, they were in Iraq and Afghanistan together, and they then create a company. The company's very successful, and then at one point, one of them wants to go and do something that the other one doesn't wanna do. And their whole question is, "Were we successful because we had a great idea-

Lewis Howes 0:16 Mm

Esther Perel 0:16 ... are we successful because we had each other?" [upbeat music]

Lewis Howes 0:33 You could choose to be in prison and suffer with poor conditions and poor treatment, but we c- can we also choose to be out of suffering in our mind and in our heart, even if there's scarcity, even if there's uncertainty, even if there's physical abuse or emotional abuse, can we still try to not be in suffering? Or do you feel like there's nothing we can do sometimes?

Esther Perel 0:56 It's a both and, right?

Lewis Howes 0:57 Right.

Esther Perel 0:57 Man's Search for Meaning.

Lewis Howes 0:58 Yeah.

Esther Perel 0:59 Basically-

Lewis Howes 1:00 Viktor Frankl, right? Yeah

Esther Perel 1:01 ... Viktor Frankl, what he, he's in the concentration camps. He, he tries to have a little notebook in which he writes his scientific research. The book is the proof of his existence. At one point-

Lewis Howes 1:12 Right

Esther Perel 1:13 ... he loses that little book, and he realizes that all trace that he's ever been may forever be gone.

Lewis Howes 1:19 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:19 And he does develop the notion of logotherapy, right? An idea that, that, um, it, it, that you cannot change your circumstances, but you can change your response to the circumstances. That you still have, until the last moment, fundamental freedom-

Lewis Howes 1:35 Right

Esther Perel 1:35 ... which is the freedom to, to the meaning that you give to what is happening to you. And in that sense, no, he can't change his conditions in the concentration camp. But he is able to still maintain a sense of sovereignty and dignity over the human degradation that is happening to him on a minute-by-minute basis.

Lewis Howes 1:54 Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:54 And I think it's both and. If you say to the people that are struggling at the borders of Mexico, "You have chosen your prison," it's in- it's indecent.

Lewis Howes 2:02 Right.

Esther Perel 2:03 And people are not always choosing their suffering. Sometimes within that, they can still sing a song to their child, hold their loved ones, write a letter to someone that is mi- that they're longing for, staying alive for the ones that are waiting for them. And that's where you are coming out of the prison or out of-

Lewis Howes 2:22 Yeah

Esther Perel 2:22 ... the suffering, you know, in fa- with a sense of freedom. And I think if one is to be really careful sometimes to say we, we, we choose our pains, we choose to stay in pain.

Lewis Howes 2:34 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 2:35 It's, it, it des- it deserves some discernment.

Lewis Howes 2:38 Sure. So suffering and pain is not a choice all the time.

Esther Perel 2:42 Oh, no. I think suffering and pain are part of life.

Lewis Howes 2:46 Yeah.

Esther Perel 2:46 There's three things that religion has dealt with forever. What is not explainable, why do we suffer, and why is there evil? And those three things have been the purview of where religion, from an anthropological point of view, really entered. And because of secularization, other people have entered to take the space. People explain to you what is ununderstandable.

Lewis Howes 3:13 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 3:13 People are trying to help you-

Lewis Howes 3:14 I know [laughs]

Esther Perel 3:14 ... with your suffering, and experts, gurus, teachers, speakers, and all of that are trying to help you with why do bad things happen to good people.

Lewis Howes 3:23 Mm-hmm. What is the answer to that?

Esther Perel 3:26 There is no answer to that.

Lewis Howes 3:27 [laughs]

Esther Perel 3:28 Otherwise, we wouldn't have had religion from the beginning of time.

Lewis Howes 3:30 Right.

Esther Perel 3:31 These are not things that are answered. These are things that, these are m- these are questions, existential conundrums that we learn to live with. There's a, nobody has ever had an answer. There's so many religions. Not a single one has been able to answer. They give you a way to live with it.

Lewis Howes 3:47 Right.

Esther Perel 3:47 They never tell you you're not gonna suffer. They tell you what you can do with your suffering.

Lewis Howes 3:51 Right. They, "Have faith."

Esther Perel 3:52 There's-

Lewis Howes 3:53 Right, "Have faith."

Esther Perel 3:53 Have faith, go pray, go do rosaries, go do good things, help other people, you know, change your story. There's lots of ways today that we're dealing with suffering. But nobody has ever said you're not gonna suffer.

Lewis Howes 4:06 So we're always gonna suffer.

Esther Perel 4:07 There is always going to be suffering as part of life.

Lewis Howes 4:10 On a scale of-

Esther Perel 4:10 Yes, you're gonna deal with loss.

Lewis Howes 4:11 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 4:12 You're gonna deal with thwarted hopes.

Lewis Howes 4:15 Yeah, disappointments.

Esther Perel 4:15 You're gonna deal with disappointments-

Lewis Howes 4:17 Yeah

Esther Perel 4:17 ... with heartbreak, with death, with, w- I mean, those things you, nobody is going to tell you that there will never be loss. And loss is probably one of the most important sources of suffering.

Lewis Howes 4:28 Do you feel like with your experience and wisdom that suffering gets easier for you over time since you know it's gonna happen? You know you're gonna lose a friend, a pet, a, you know, a sibling, a, a loved one. You know you're going to be disappointed. Do you have tools for yourself to suffer less or l- lesser time amounts, or is it still a deep sense of pain when things happen unexpectedly that hurt or that are hurtful?

Esther Perel 4:56 I think that you don't suffer less. You suffer differently.

Lewis Howes 5:01 Okay.

Esther Perel 5:02 And the most important thing is if you're not alone. Probably the most difficult thing in all our experiences, and certainly in the experience of pain or loss or suffering or ache, is not to be alone.

Lewis Howes 5:16 Mm.

Esther Perel 5:16 So that somebody else tells you, "I too have gone through this."

Lewis Howes 5:21 Yeah.

Esther Perel 5:21 That's why we read books that inspire us from other people who have also lost and found their way back and saw the light again, and they created new hope and reconnected with someone and allowed themselves to love again and have another child and start another business, whatever it is.

Lewis Howes 5:38 Right.

Esther Perel 5:38 You know, s- you, what you, you go through it, but you have a sense that there is that thing called going through it, and that you can come out of it on the other side.

Lewis Howes 5:47 Right.

Esther Perel 5:47 That there is hope, that you're not alone, that there is a day when it won't hurt and ache as much, that there is a day you will be able to wake up and you won't be thinking about-

Lewis Howes 5:59 Obsessing over it

Esther Perel 6:00 ... obsessing about it.

Lewis Howes 6:01 When was the last time you suffered the deepest?

Esther Perel 6:06 I have to honestly say it's been a while.

Lewis Howes 6:09 Really?

Esther Perel 6:09 I have been in a really blessed, blessed time.

Lewis Howes 6:12 That's great.

Esther Perel 6:13 You know? Um...

Lewis Howes 6:15 Is a while 10 years, three years, seven years? What's...

Esther Perel 6:24 Look, I haven't had loss since my parents died.

Lewis Howes 6:29 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 6:29 Um, I have had periods of high anxiety for things that were going on around illness, around, you know, things like that, but I have not had a major crisis, luckily-

Lewis Howes 6:41 Hmm

Esther Perel 6:41 ... in a while, you know? Except dealing with the, you know, the proximity of illness in my life.

Lewis Howes 6:47 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 6:47 Not my own, for that matter.

Lewis Howes 6:49 Just people in your life. Yeah.

Esther Perel 6:49 So people in my life, people that are really, really close to me. So in that sense, I have been really blessed. It's an amazing thing, and you know what happens, is that when you don't live it, you know it exists, but you forget.

Lewis Howes 7:03 Hmm.

Esther Perel 7:03 It's like if you've had a wound in your leg, you know where the thing was, but it no longer hurts, and you're looking sometimes with your finger. Was it exactly here?

Lewis Howes 7:12 Right.

Esther Perel 7:12 Was it exactly there? There's this amazing way in which when we, when we are not in pain, we have, we, we have the sense of what pain can be-

Lewis Howes 7:21 Hmm

Esther Perel 7:21 ... but we can't feel the pain that is not.

Lewis Howes 7:24 Hmm. [laughs] Right. [laughs]

Esther Perel 7:26 Unless you are reminded of something, and you say, "I re- I remember. I re- I felt that. I know an... I also had that once."

Lewis Howes 7:33 Yeah.

Esther Perel 7:33 You know, and you can instantly re-experience the moment with acute pain. But if you don't, if you... If the story's not there, you, uh, you, you, y- I- you can say, "Yeah, I remember. I remember. I've, I've gone through this," but you don't feel it in the moment.

Lewis Howes 7:49 Yeah.

Esther Perel 7:49 And I think that form of resistance, of, of immunity, I think is an amazing resilient quality that we have-

Lewis Howes 7:57 Yeah

Esther Perel 7:58 ... actually, that we are able to separate ourselves from something for the time being. But I could get hit any, any minute. We live in such uncertain times. I think that anybody who thinks that they are immune from it, uh, are grandiose. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 8:13 I know. I know. I mean, I lo- you have these two podcasts called Where Should We Begin? and How's Work? Which I haven't checked out How's Work? yet. I'm going to. But Where Should We Begin? is transformation- transformational. It's saving people's relationships, intimate relationships around the world. It's, it's really amazing, Don. And w- it... You know, relationships seem to be some of the hardest things for people to figure out. I have my friend Matthew Hussey, who helps women find men, and every girl seems to be, that I know, is always like, "Lewis, can you help me find a good man?" It seems like women are just trying to find the right partner, find great relationship partners. And then when you're in a relationship, it seems to be like people are always struggling in relationships, whether it be intimate or work related relationships, business partnerships.

Lewis Howes 9:01 Why are relationships seemingly so hard for so many people when it's the thing we need the most to feel alive, to feel happy, and to feel connected?

Esther Perel 9:11 [laughs] This is the million-dollar question, you know.

Lewis Howes 9:14 [laughs]

Esther Perel 9:14 I'm a relationship therapist for 35-plus years. I work with people in their romantic relationships, family relationships, friendships, co-founder, colleagues, coworkers. So love and work-

Lewis Howes 9:28 Yes

Esther Perel 9:28 ... the two pillars of our life, as Freud said. And, um, if I could just say why is the simple feeling of loving or caring not enough.

Lewis Howes 9:38 Hmm.

Esther Perel 9:38 Um, because the entire human drama is really complex. The same way as nature is complex-

Lewis Howes 9:46 Hmm. Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 9:47 ... so is human nature complex. And, uh, I, I've spent my whole career studying what is changing in relationships. You know, why... Are they more complicated today? Are they more painful today, you know? Are, are... Have our expectations changed?

Lewis Howes 10:04 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 10:05 And there aren- there... That, I have answers to. I don't have answers to why is it so-

Lewis Howes 10:11 Right

Esther Perel 10:11 ... why, you know. But I do know-

Lewis Howes 10:12 Is it more complicated now, relationships than-

Esther Perel 10:14 Yes

Lewis Howes 10:14 ... 50 or 100 years ago?

Esther Perel 10:16 Yes. Yes, absolutely.

Lewis Howes 10:17 Why is that?

Esther Perel 10:17 Why? For a very simple reason. For a long time, we live, and we still in many parts of the world, live in traditional societies where relationships are clearly codified. There are clear rules, there are roles, there are obligations. There's a tight structure from which you can't get out-

Lewis Howes 10:36 Yeah

Esther Perel 10:36 ... but it tells you clearly who you are, where you belong, where you're rooted, and what's expected of you. And you don't have too much questions about whose career matters more, and who's gonna wake up to feed the baby-

Lewis Howes 10:47 Oh, yeah

Esther Perel 10:47 ... and who has a right to demand for sex. And what... And everybody, every husband knows exactly what they can ask from their wife, and the wife knows exactly what she should not tell her husband, and children know their place, and adults can out interact. All of this was super regulated.

Lewis Howes 11:02 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 11:03 You know exactly that on Sunday you go to visit your family, and that you have to call your grandma, and that... And nobody had-

Lewis Howes 11:09 Go to church and... Yeah

Esther Perel 11:09 ... and you go to church, or you go to any other religious institution where you go to pray, to be with the community, et cetera. And you know what? Nobody needed to explain to you why it's important. You just went-

Lewis Howes 11:20 Hmm

Esther Perel 11:20 ... because I said so.

Lewis Howes 11:22 Right. [laughs]

Esther Perel 11:23 And because that's what you do.

Lewis Howes 11:24 Yeah.

Esther Perel 11:24 That's what we do. And that's what we don't do because what will the neighbors say?

Lewis Howes 11:29 Hmm.

Esther Perel 11:30 And there is a community that looks over you all the time, and the streets are narrow like that, and everybody knows what's going on in the neighbor's house. Right now, your best friends could be breaking up, and you didn't even see it coming.

Lewis Howes 11:44 Hmm.

Esther Perel 11:45 Nobody knows what goes on in the neighbor's house. That's where Where Should We Begin? became, I think, so powerful.

Lewis Howes 11:51 Wow.

Esther Perel 11:51 It gave you back a sense of what actually goes on in other people's lives, so that you're not alone wondering, "Am I the only one who's going through all of this?" This tight structure of our society has moved into what we call today network societies. Network societies is not tight knots, it's loose ends.

Lewis Howes 12:08 Hmm.

Esther Perel 12:08 It's loose threads with commitment that can be revoked at any moment. That's why your women are constantly writing to you.

Lewis Howes 12:15 Yeah.

Esther Perel 12:15 "I thought we had something," and the next day he disappears. I thought we had developed a sense of trust. You know, where is the care? Where is the loyalty? Where is the continuity? All these things that now are not just set, fixed, they all have to be negotiated. Everything that was a rule is now a negotiation.

Lewis Howes 12:34 Hmm.

Esther Perel 12:35 A conversation. Who's going to go to work?

Lewis Howes 12:38 Wow.

Esther Perel 12:38 Who is... Are we gonna move you to the West Coast, or are you gonna move with me to the East Coast? Are we gonna have children? Are we ready to have children? How many children? Do we even want children? You know, on and on and on.

Lewis Howes 12:50 So many questions.

Esther Perel 12:50 Am I happy at work? Oh, I could do better. Should I stay a few more months? Should I leave? Should I... You know, is this what I really want to do? Is this who I really am?

Lewis Howes 13:00 Is this my passion? Yeah.

Esther Perel 13:01 Is this my passion? You know, this identity quest the whole time. Is this who I want to be? Is this... A- and all of these questions are rather new questions. Why? Because in the past or in other parts of the world today, you kind of know who you are.

Lewis Howes 13:17 Hmm.

Esther Perel 13:17 Seriously.

Lewis Howes 13:18 Hmm.

Esther Perel 13:18 You're the son of somebody.

Lewis Howes 13:20 [laughs] Right.

Esther Perel 13:21 Even you're the son of somebody, it starts with that, Ben, you know? And you probably will even do what your father has done-

Lewis Howes 13:30 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 13:30 ... if you are a man, and maybe not do much of any of the outside the house if you are a woman, or you may begin a charting course of working outside the house, and all of these things are very, very normative.

Lewis Howes 13:44 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 13:44 And-

Lewis Howes 13:44 And now it's different

Esther Perel 13:45 ... we don't have any of that at this moment.

Lewis Howes 13:48 Yeah.

Esther Perel 13:48 We are... Basically, I call it the identity economy. We spend our time trying to figure out, who am I?

Lewis Howes 13:54 Hmm.

Esther Perel 13:55 We have an enormous industry of self-help-

Lewis Howes 13:59 Yeah

Esther Perel 13:59 ... you know, um, with this belief that we are self-made, that we can have self-feast, that we do self-care. It's this self, self, self that is so focused, such the center of everything, and so fragile. The freaking self has never been more fragile.

Lewis Howes 14:16 [laughs]

Esther Perel 14:16 We are constantly making sure that it n- that it doesn't get overwhelmed, that it doesn't get triggered, that it doesn't get v- violated, that it doesn't get shattered because it stands there alone-

Lewis Howes 14:28 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 14:28 ... like the little Dutchman with his finger trying to hold back the dike.

Lewis Howes 14:32 Hmm.

Esther Perel 14:33 You know? And that is the times I think we are in at this moment, and there, uh, that's the waters I think you swim in. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 14:40 Sure. Well, I think that's where suffering, uh, inner suffering comes from on the surface, is when you obsessively think about yourself, when you're so- you're obsessively self-centric thinking all the time.

Esther Perel 14:50 Trying to improve yourself-

Lewis Howes 14:52 Yeah

Esther Perel 14:52 ... and feeling not good enough.

Lewis Howes 14:53 Right.

Esther Perel 14:54 I think it's the combination.

Lewis Howes 14:55 Comparing yourself.

Esther Perel 14:56 Comparing. Now, I don't know that people didn't compare themselves when they all went to, to, uh, and stood on the steps of the church on a Sunday morning.

Lewis Howes 15:02 Sure.

Esther Perel 15:03 I think communities, people have always compared themselves, but there was much... There was a different type of social control-

Lewis Howes 15:09 Hmm

Esther Perel 15:09 ... the one that we have on social media today.

Lewis Howes 15:11 Right.

Esther Perel 15:11 Social control has always existed.

Lewis Howes 15:13 Yeah.

Esther Perel 15:13 You know? So suffering is part of life. Community and not being alone is what helps us with all our experiences-

Lewis Howes 15:24 Hmm

Esther Perel 15:24 ... definitely with suffering. I look at the disappointments of relationships and the struggles that we have. Why are they so challenging? What is the challenge? What can you do about it? When is it you who can do something, and when do you have to realize the limitations that what you will do will not change another-

Lewis Howes 15:47 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 15:48 ... necessarily?

Lewis Howes 15:49 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 15:49 When it does and when it doesn't, and how does this manifest at work and at home?

Lewis Howes 15:55 Yeah. Yeah.

Esther Perel 15:55 You asked me how relationships have changed. I think we've never had more expectations of love and work than we do today. I think we expect today from love and work many things that we expected before from religion and from community. We want our relationships to be transformative-

Lewis Howes 16:11 Hmm

Esther Perel 16:11 ... transcendent-

Lewis Howes 16:12 Spiritual. Yeah

Esther Perel 16:13 ... meaningful-

Lewis Howes 16:14 Sexual

Esther Perel 16:14 ... spiritual, purposeful, erotic, passionate, and we want it at home, and we want it at work.

Lewis Howes 16:19 Hmm.

Esther Perel 16:20 We want-

Lewis Howes 16:20 How do we get it at work, too?

Esther Perel 16:22 Oh, because we, we want work to be purposeful today.

Lewis Howes 16:26 Hmm.

Esther Perel 16:26 We want work to, you know, to give me a sense of identity, of meaning, of self-fulfillment, of development. I don't just wanna go to work only for the paycheck. I need the paycheck, but I also want the paycheck to-

Lewis Howes 16:40 Yeah

Esther Perel 16:40 ... be meaningful to me. Um, work has become, um, a- an identity economy. It's not just, what am I gonna do? It's, who am I gonna be?

Lewis Howes 16:52 Wow.

Esther Perel 16:52 And, um, and it parallels, it parallels... You know, what do we talk about at work? Transparency, belonging, authenticity-

Lewis Howes 17:01 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 17:01 ... trust, psychological safety. I mean, when did the entire emotional vocabulary-

Lewis Howes 17:08 Hmm

Esther Perel 17:08 ... enter the workplace to such a degree-

Lewis Howes 17:10 [laughs]

Esther Perel 17:10 ... that soft skills, what they used to be called-

Lewis Howes 17:14 Uh-huh

Esther Perel 17:14 ... which are emotional and social skills-

Lewis Howes 17:16 Yeah

Esther Perel 17:16 ... relational skills, which is used to be seen as feminine skills.

Lewis Howes 17:19 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 17:20 And feminine skills, you don't... You can idealize them in principle but disregard them in reality. And these soft skills have very quickly become the new hard skills.

Lewis Howes 17:31 Hmm. True.

Esther Perel 17:32 And that's why I working in the workplace.

Lewis Howes 17:35 Yeah.

Esther Perel 17:35 It's not because I have changed, and I suddenly am interested in work. It's because work has changed and is suddenly interested in what I have been doing for decades.

Lewis Howes 17:43 [laughs] I love this. My... I'm gonna ask you a question that may be hard to answer. Maybe it's easy.

Esther Perel 17:47 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 17:48 But you've had... You've seen a lot of intimate relationships work and fail-

Esther Perel 17:53 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 17:53 ... over 35-plus years, right?

Esther Perel 17:55 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 17:56 How many of the relationships... What's the percentage of people in your mind who are in intimate long-term relationships, marriages or not married but together, are actually happy most of the time, thriving, beautiful? I'm sure there's challenges, but, like, they're able to work through them with semi-ease. How many relationships in your mind are super happy and thriving? After decades of the changes of the times, society, work, family, all, all the dynamics that happen in life.

Esther Perel 18:29 So I have two ways of answering this.

Lewis Howes 18:30 Yes.

Esther Perel 18:30 The first one is cultural.

Lewis Howes 18:32 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 18:33 Your definition of happy and thriving and fulfilled is probably very different than many other cultures-

Lewis Howes 18:40 Sure

Esther Perel 18:41 ... where being healthy-

Lewis Howes 18:42 [laughs] Right

Esther Perel 18:43 ... having enough to eat-

Lewis Howes 18:44 Yeah

Esther Perel 18:44 ... having children, having grandchildren-

Lewis Howes 18:47 Having good jobs, yeah

Esther Perel 18:47 ... having good jobs, being respected in the community-

Lewis Howes 18:51 Is happy and thriving

Esther Perel 18:52 ... is happy and thriving.

Lewis Howes 18:53 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 18:53 It's not about you and I are talking on the couch, and I'm pouring my hearts at you-

Lewis Howes 18:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Esther Perel 18:58 ... and you are telling me I'm the best thing that's ever happened to you in your life and all of that. Okay? So we-

Lewis Howes 19:03 That's one version, yeah.

Esther Perel 19:04 That's one version.

Lewis Howes 19:05 Okay.

Esther Perel 19:05 Is you have got to look at the word happiness and thriving really in a cross-cultural context.

Lewis Howes 19:10 Okay, I like that.

Esther Perel 19:10 Because a lot of us, by the way, who have the new definition, have parents who think about marriage and what is a happy marriage with the, with the other definition.

Lewis Howes 19:21 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 19:21 And I'm wondering, you know, that maybe we are so unhappy because we want so many other things that are maybe not part of marriage.

Lewis Howes 19:28 Hmm. We have such high expectations.

Esther Perel 19:29 We have super high expectations. I want, we want everything. We want a partner to be an entire community, my best friend, my trusted confidant, my passionate lover, my intellectual equal, my co-parent. And on top of it, I want with you to deal with all the vicissitudes of the everyday life and all of what we need to get to-

Lewis Howes 19:46 All the responsibilities and-

Esther Perel 19:46 All of that. And then we should also be passionate, great lovers, w- fantastic travelers.

Lewis Howes 19:51 Travel the world.

Esther Perel 19:51 Exactly.

Lewis Howes 19:52 [laughs]

Esther Perel 19:53 You know, and very few of us-

Lewis Howes 19:54 Go dancing every week. Yeah.

Esther Perel 19:56 So Eli Finkel has a best answer for you on that.

Lewis Howes 19:59 Okay.

Esther Perel 20:00 He's a researcher on marriage, and, uh, basically what he says is that the good relationships of today are better than the relationships of history.

Lewis Howes 20:08 Mm.

Esther Perel 20:09 But there are very few. Because the good... What you call that happiness is the top of the Olympus.

Lewis Howes 20:16 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 20:16 It's climbing the mountain, and at the top of the mountain, the view is fantastic, but the air is also thinner, and not everybody can climb the mountain.

Lewis Howes 20:24 Mm.

Esther Perel 20:25 The people who get to the top, their top is probably better than the tops of the past.

Lewis Howes 20:29 Wow.

Esther Perel 20:31 Now, what is the top? It used to be that marriage was for survival. Then it became a romantic enterprise, and it became what I call the service economy, from the production economy to the service economy. You want children, but no longer just eight, so you only want two, so sexuality becomes for pleasure and connection, so it becomes a service economy.

Lewis Howes 20:52 Mm.

Esther Perel 20:52 It's no longer a production.

Lewis Howes 20:54 Right.

Esther Perel 20:54 And then from there you go into identity, which is what I want to become the best version of myself, and you're gonna help me do so. That's the identity story of marriage.

Lewis Howes 21:03 Sure.

Esther Perel 21:03 And that goes up the Maslow ladder. Now, if I w- ask the question differently, I wa- I actually wanted to write that very article.

Lewis Howes 21:12 Mm.

Esther Perel 21:13 About 10, 15 years ago, I set out to write a piece, what are creative couples? And do you know... Because creative was the word I was interested in.

Lewis Howes 21:22 Mm.

Esther Perel 21:22 Not so much happy, passionate-

Lewis Howes 21:23 Sure

Esther Perel 21:24 ... but creative, meaning not stable, not solid. But what is this thing, creativity? The spark. And I went and I asked almost 100 people, "Do you know couples that inspire you? Do you know couples that you think have that spark still?" And the frightening thing was that a majority of people could sometimes come up with one, maybe two, and that was it.

Lewis Howes 21:51 Wow.

Esther Perel 21:53 You know, they knew people who were very good at renovations and people who were great parents together and people who were great business partners together. But that whole-

Lewis Howes 22:02 The whole package. Yeah

Esther Perel 22:02 ... that you talk about, there were very few. And I thought that is so sad, because here we are, we want something. I mean, if I say good business partners, b- or business leaders, you would give me 10 people who you think inspire you to run a company.

Lewis Howes 22:17 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 22:17 Or, or authors or musicians, or... We all have a long list. Like, who can say what's your favorite musician? I mean, most of us have more than one.

Lewis Howes 22:25 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 22:26 When it comes to intimate relationships, people have very few models. Now, maybe it is because what they want is so high that there is very few models, actually, and that's probably the challenge of intimate relationships today.

Lewis Howes 22:43 Wow. So how do we, [laughs] how do we find, how do we create that in an intimate partner? Or is it setting a lower expectation for what we want so that we don't-

Esther Perel 22:53 It's both. I think sometimes if you lower your expectations, you're much better off. No doubt.

Lewis Howes 22:58 Right.

Esther Perel 22:58 Calibrate. So back to Eli Finkel's research, calibrating expectations is probably one of the most, the three main things-

Lewis Howes 23:05 Wow

Esther Perel 23:06 ... for su- what he calls successful relationships.

Lewis Howes 23:08 Wow.

Esther Perel 23:09 And calibrating doesn't mean you lower your expectations necessarily, but you also diversify them.

Lewis Howes 23:15 Mm.

Esther Perel 23:15 You don't ask one person-

Lewis Howes 23:17 To be everything

Esther Perel 23:18 ... to give you what a whole village should actually give you.

Lewis Howes 23:20 Right. Okay. That was the first thing. What's the second? You said there's three things.

Esther Perel 23:24 So one is the calibration of the expectation. Two is the diversification. And three, which is the one that very much speaks to me, is, um, doing new things.

Lewis Howes 23:36 Mm. With your partner?

Esther Perel 23:37 That when, with your partner. That if you do the things that you enjoy, that's really nice, that's comfortable, that's cozy, that solidifies the friendship. But if you want to create intensity-

Lewis Howes 23:49 Mm

Esther Perel 23:49 ... it de- it de- it demands risk-taking, doing new things outside of your comfort zone, little bit more on the edge.

Lewis Howes 23:57 How often should we be doing new things with our intimate partner?

Esther Perel 24:00 I think a- as often... I mean, look, the answer to this is very simple. Often enough, but not too often that you become chaotic and you disregulate. Right?

Lewis Howes 24:10 Mm.

Esther Perel 24:10 Now you're asking me a systemic question. This is true for an individual, a relationship, or a company. If you don't change or grow, you fossilize and you die If you change too much too fast-

Lewis Howes 24:25 No stability. Yeah

Esther Perel 24:25 ... there's no stability.

Lewis Howes 24:26 [laughs] .

Esther Perel 24:26 You go chaotic and you dysregulate.

Lewis Howes 24:28 Right.

Esther Perel 24:29 So wh- how often, it depends on where you are at in your life. Are you the two of you? Do you have kids? Do you have little ones?

Lewis Howes 24:36 Mm.

Esther Perel 24:36 Do you have, or aging parents? Are you taking care of somebody? What else is going on here will tell you if this is a period where you need more stability, or if this is a period where it's time to go and be curious and explore and discover-

Lewis Howes 24:49 Right

Esther Perel 24:49 ... and go into the world and launch.

Lewis Howes 24:51 Right. If you're a, a young 30-something female, I get this all the time from a lot of women who reach out to me, who are ending relationships that were really stressful for them, or they've been single for years and they're trying to figure out how do they find the right person, or how do they create the right relationship for them that's gonna be a, a long-term partner.

Lewis Howes 25:12 If you're a female in your young 30s, what should they be thinking about? Like, should they be focusing first on themself, growing themself? Or what are the things they should be looking for in the right partner?

Esther Perel 25:23 Right. I just wrote my current blog, which is a little bit of a critique of this taking care of yourself first.

Lewis Howes 25:30 Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Esther Perel 25:32 So, um-

Lewis Howes 25:33 I guarantee

Esther Perel 25:33 ... because you, you learn to love yourself in the context of your relationships with others.

Lewis Howes 25:38 Mm.

Esther Perel 25:39 You know, we, this idea that you go first to work on yourself here, and then you prepare this little nice little package, and you bring it to relationships, that's, that is completely off, actually.

Lewis Howes 25:49 Wow.

Esther Perel 25:49 There, it's, it's, it's interactive. You do do, you need a good amount of self-awareness, but you also need to be in relationships because it's people who help you become more aware.

Lewis Howes 25:59 Practicing it. Yeah.

Esther Perel 26:00 Uh, practicing it, but other people let you see who you are. It's by being with others that you get to know who you are, and not just by sitting there alone and say, "Who am I? Who am I?"

Lewis Howes 26:09 Right.

Esther Perel 26:09 But this is a relational perspective on life, and I will stand by that.

Lewis Howes 26:13 Wow.

Esther Perel 26:14 Read the newsletter. It's, it-

Lewis Howes 26:15 I like it

Esther Perel 26:15 ... I really poured myself into that one.

Lewis Howes 26:17 Okay, good.

Esther Perel 26:18 Because I'm tired a little bit of this. No. What I will say to you, I'm tired of the go fix yourself-

Lewis Howes 26:26 First, then go be in a relationship

Esther Perel 26:26 ... first, and then go be in a relationship. Relationships help you to become who you are.

Lewis Howes 26:29 Mm.

Esther Perel 26:30 That's what happens between children and their caregivers. The next thing is in- then instead of constantly thinking, "Who's the right person I'm gonna find?" Why don't you ask yourself, who do you wanna be? Who should the other one be? No, maybe it's for on occasion, ask, who will I be as a partner?

Lewis Howes 26:47 Mm.

Esther Perel 26:48 Who have I been till now in my relationships? How have I shown up? What is it that I do? Not just, you know, finding the right person.

Lewis Howes 26:56 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 26:57 That's... Now, what does it mean to find the right person? And there I will say the simplest way of looking at it is this. There are many people you will love, and they are not necessarily the same people that you will make a life with. Are you looking for a love story, or are you looking for a life story?

Lewis Howes 27:15 Ooh. That's good.

Esther Perel 27:17 You understand?

Lewis Howes 27:18 Yeah.

Esther Perel 27:19 There are many people have had love stories. This is a whole different story. I never thought for a minute I would live with these people. Take something else to have a partner in life with whom you're gonna go through the pains-

Lewis Howes 27:29 Yeah

Esther Perel 27:30 ... the sufferings, the challenges, the, you know, the, the, all of that. So-

Lewis Howes 27:33 Can you have a life partner and still have a love story?

Esther Perel 27:35 Of course. Of course. You want the life partner to be a love story, too.

Lewis Howes 27:40 Mm.

Esther Perel 27:40 But the love stories per se are not life stories.

Lewis Howes 27:44 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 27:44 It's different ingredients. It's different values. You, there's some things that you don't need in order to have a beautiful love story with someone. It, it, it lives in its encapsulated version on its own. You're not thinking, can I do this with you? Can I get old with you? Can I take you to my parents? Can c- you know, uh, do we share similar va- It's about values, life. Not just about feelings.

Lewis Howes 28:05 Mm.

Esther Perel 28:06 So when you're looking for the right person, it's not just what attracts you.

Lewis Howes 28:10 Mm-hmm. The values.

Esther Perel 28:11 It's who can you build a life with.

Lewis Howes 28:14 How many values in common do you need to have with your partner, life partner? Because-

Esther Perel 28:19 The important ones. It's not how many, but there are a few of them-

Lewis Howes 28:23 Mm

Esther Perel 28:23 ... that are really, that are really important.

Lewis Howes 28:25 Like which, which ones would you say?

Esther Perel 28:28 I think-

Lewis Howes 28:28 That make or break based on your experience.

Esther Perel 28:33 I think, uh, uh, I w- I'm not gonna say them in order of importance.

Lewis Howes 28:37 Mm. Yeah, yeah.

Esther Perel 28:37 But one of them that really matters is your relationship to others. If you are a person that values relationships, that sees the presence of others in your life as central, and you are with somebody who does not want community-

Lewis Howes 28:58 Mm

Esther Perel 28:58 ... or does not know how... And in, I'm talking not about what they would like to learn through you, but their value is you do things alone, you live alone-

Lewis Howes 29:07 Mm

Esther Perel 29:07 ... you rely on yourself. You d- you know, you don't bring people over to the house. I have a couple I just spoke with yesterday, you know, and he loves to have people over, and she just, nobody should come over to the house.

Lewis Howes 29:18 She wants her, her space alone.

Esther Perel 29:19 Her space, the whole thing.

Lewis Howes 29:21 Yeah.

Esther Perel 29:21 And I'm thinking, wow, this is a tough one.

Lewis Howes 29:24 Wow.

Esther Perel 29:24 It's not just about the hou- It's his whole life is about being with people, and her whole life is about not being with people necessarily.

Lewis Howes 29:31 Mm.

Esther Perel 29:31 That's not how she experiences it. Now the question is, is she drawn to more of what he has to offer, and is he drawn to more of what she... If these are totally-

Lewis Howes 29:41 They both want a little more, yeah

Esther Perel 29:42 ... then, then, okay, it's different values come together, and they, they mix and match.

Lewis Howes 29:48 Yeah.

Esther Perel 29:48 But if you have these two separations like that, so that's one.

Lewis Howes 29:51 The train's on the wrong track. Okay.

Esther Perel 29:51 One of the beautiful questions I ask in How Is Work is, um, were you raised for autonomy, or were you raised for loyalty? Were you raised for self-reliance, or were you raised for interdependence?

Lewis Howes 30:06 Mm.

Esther Perel 30:06 Which one would you say?

Lewis Howes 30:08 For me it was, uh, self-reliance meaning what?

Esther Perel 30:11 You have, nobody will ever help you as well as you can help yourself.

Lewis Howes 30:15 Mm.

Esther Perel 30:15 You only have yourself to count on. Don't trust people. You're on your own, buddy.

Lewis Howes 30:21 Or raised for loyalty of-

Esther Perel 30:23 Interdependence, loyalty

Lewis Howes 30:25 ... family, team

Esther Perel 30:25 ... that you're never alone.

Lewis Howes 30:26 Mm.

Esther Perel 30:26 There's people around you. You owe others, others are there for you.

Lewis Howes 30:30 Mm.

Esther Perel 30:30 Relationships is what makes you.

Lewis Howes 30:34 I think I was both based on, like, circumstances-

Esther Perel 30:37 Correct

Lewis Howes 30:37 ... and, like, less-

Esther Perel 30:38 The circumstances-

Lewis Howes 30:38 Yeah

Esther Perel 30:38 ... made you reliable-

Lewis Howes 30:39 Yeah

Esther Perel 30:39 ... because you were alone-

Lewis Howes 30:41 Uh-huh

Esther Perel 30:41 ... at, with Mom.

Lewis Howes 30:42 Yeah.

Esther Perel 30:42 But the messaging was, "You have me."

Lewis Howes 30:45 Of course. Yeah, yeah, of course.

Esther Perel 30:46 Okay.

Lewis Howes 30:46 Yeah. So I think both.

Esther Perel 30:47 I think that question is a fundamentally-

Lewis Howes 30:50 Wow

Esther Perel 30:50 ... interesting question-

Lewis Howes 30:52 Okay

Esther Perel 30:52 ... that people can ask themselves when they partner in business and in love.

Lewis Howes 30:59 Raised for self-reliance or lo- loyalty?

Esther Perel 31:02 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 31:03 Okay.

Esther Perel 31:04 Interdependence. Are you part... Do you see yourself as connected to others, and it's your connections that give you a sense of anchoring, meaning, relevance-

Lewis Howes 31:14 Hmm

Esther Perel 31:14 ... importance-

Lewis Howes 31:14 That's good

Esther Perel 31:15 ... and all of that?

Lewis Howes 31:15 Okay.

Esther Perel 31:15 Or do you see yourself as fundamentally on your own?

Lewis Howes 31:19 On your own. Gotcha.

Esther Perel 31:19 I think travel, curiosity, you often will have a complementarity between one person who is curious and eager to discover and goes on, you know-

Lewis Howes 31:30 Yeah

Esther Perel 31:30 ... and then another person... Your question about-

Lewis Howes 31:33 Who wants to be alone or, or doesn't wanna travel, wants to stay home.

Esther Perel 31:35 Doesn't want to... But it's also likes comfort, likes repetition-

Lewis Howes 31:39 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 31:39 ... likes the familiar.

Lewis Howes 31:40 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 31:41 Um, I think the religious values.

Lewis Howes 31:43 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 31:44 If you have a person who, who, you know, those, those matter a great deal. Um, children.

Lewis Howes 31:51 Mm.

Esther Perel 31:51 Do you want family, or do you not want family? If you b- you know, if you want a family, then make sure that you find someone who wants a family. What do you-

Lewis Howes 31:59 Right. Otherwise, the support of being-

Esther Perel 31:59 What are you gonna-

Lewis Howes 31:59 ... life partners, yeah

Esther Perel 32:00 ... what are you gonna do? Try to convince some, you know. Now, I don't think you have to have the same values on everything. I think you have to have a similar v- outlook on life.

Lewis Howes 32:09 Which is?

Esther Perel 32:11 A vision.

Lewis Howes 32:12 Hmm.

Esther Perel 32:12 Like, exactly the same as when you... A vision. Do you, you know, do you want to own a home?

Lewis Howes 32:22 Okay.

Esther Perel 32:22 Do you think that economic achievement is important? Do you want to live in an extended family? You think that living intergenerationally really is important, and you have somebody else who says, you know, "I don't want your parents over."

Lewis Howes 32:38 [laughs] Right.

Esther Perel 32:39 You know, do you, do you want to live in more than one place?

Lewis Howes 32:44 Hmm.

Esther Perel 32:45 You know, I think these are essential, you know, money-

Lewis Howes 32:49 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 32:49 ... feelings or emotions, religious beliefs, attitude toward life. It's not a specific value about something. It's the... A, a value is a cluster of things.

Lewis Howes 33:08 Yeah.

Esther Perel 33:08 It's a cluster of importance of systems of meanings.

Lewis Howes 33:11 Yeah.

Esther Perel 33:11 That's a value.

Lewis Howes 33:12 It's, and you may not find someone with everything is the same, but someone with a similar mindset is what you're saying.

Esther Perel 33:18 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 33:18 An overall feeling.

Esther Perel 33:18 I met a husband of mine, with whom I am for more than three decades-

Lewis Howes 33:23 Yeah

Esther Perel 33:23 ... who had never left the US when I met him.

Lewis Howes 33:26 Really?

Esther Perel 33:27 I never knew such a person existed.

Lewis Howes 33:29 [laughs]

Esther Perel 33:30 Coming from Europe, that was un, un, unheard of for us.

Lewis Howes 33:33 He lived in Europe?

Esther Perel 33:33 No, he lived in the States.

Lewis Howes 33:34 Oh, he lived in the States.

Esther Perel 33:35 He was American.

Lewis Howes 33:36 Gotcha.

Esther Perel 33:36 I came from Europe. In Europe, you travel-

Lewis Howes 33:38 Everywhere, yeah

Esther Perel 33:38 ... everywhere all the time, even if you have nothing.

Lewis Howes 33:41 Bus, train, plane.

Esther Perel 33:41 You work one month, you get the money, and then you go to the next country, which is two hours away.

Lewis Howes 33:45 Yeah.

Esther Perel 33:46 I, so I-

Lewis Howes 33:47 He never traveled outside of the US.

Esther Perel 33:48 He had never been outside of the US. Well, he will always tell me he'd been to the Virgin Islands.

Lewis Howes 33:52 Okay. [laughs]

Esther Perel 33:53 But, you know, for the re- and I thought, "Oh, my God, how does one... You know, who is such a person?" But I knew it was because of the circumstances of his life-

Lewis Howes 34:02 Sure

Esther Perel 34:02 ... and that if he could, he would.

Lewis Howes 34:04 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 34:04 And he was intensely curious.

Lewis Howes 34:06 Mm.

Esther Perel 34:07 If you just said, "Oh, he's never traveled," then you misinterpret. You don't wanna just look at the manifest thing-

Lewis Howes 34:14 Mm

Esther Perel 34:14 ... of, you know. You wanna say, "And behind this, is there someone who would actually like that, who just hasn't had the opportunity, and is curious and just says, 'Let's go'"? So don't get fooled just by what you see.

Lewis Howes 34:27 Right.

Esther Perel 34:28 Find out what is the belief behind it, the aspiration, the longing, the interest, and then you get a sense of what is the value.

Lewis Howes 34:35 Do you think it's... I, I wanna go back to expectation. Do you feel like we should lower or should diversify expectations? Or what did you say the word was?

Esther Perel 34:45 Calibrate.

Lewis Howes 34:46 Calibrate expectations, or should we be f- finding someone that can reach that expectation that we want?

Esther Perel 34:54 No, I think it's, you need-

Lewis Howes 34:54 Do you think it's just impossible?

Esther Perel 34:55 I think you, you need to calibrate.

Lewis Howes 34:57 Calibrate.

Esther Perel 34:58 You-

Lewis Howes 34:58 Always calibrate, too, right?

Esther Perel 34:59 You calibrate.

Lewis Howes 35:00 Yeah.

Esther Perel 35:00 You constantly will be disappointed. Do you know a single relationship where you haven't been disappointed?

Lewis Howes 35:05 No.

Esther Perel 35:05 Okay. I mean, disappointment is, which can lead to suffering-

Lewis Howes 35:09 Oh, yeah

Esther Perel 35:09 ... is part of a relationship. The minute you have a relationship, you have an expectation. That expectation means that you want something, love, closeness, intimacy, partnership, b- you know, business affiliation.

Lewis Howes 35:25 Yeah.

Esther Perel 35:25 You name it. Creates dependence. The moment you have an attachment, you have dependence. That dependence means that you have power, or I have power. If I expect something from you, I confer power on you.

Lewis Howes 35:39 Hmm.

Esther Perel 35:40 You have power over me. I have power over you. By definition, there will be moments when that power doesn't go in the direction that I want.

Lewis Howes 35:48 And I'll be disappointed.

Esther Perel 35:49 I'll be disappointed. Is there a single child that didn't have a disappointment from their parents?

Lewis Howes 35:54 No.

Esther Perel 35:54 It doesn't exist.

Lewis Howes 35:55 Right.

Esther Perel 35:55 This, this idyllic thing you're talking about-

Lewis Howes 35:57 [laughs]

Esther Perel 35:57 ... it doesn't exist. The next thing is, what do you do with that disappointment? A, can I come tell you, "I'm really disappointed. You let me down. I thought we were in this together. I trusted you"? And you say, "I see your point," or do you say, "What the hell are you talking about? You're just inventing this. You're delusional."

Lewis Howes 36:15 Mm.

Esther Perel 36:15 None of the, you know.

Lewis Howes 36:16 Yeah.

Esther Perel 36:16 And everything in between.

Lewis Howes 36:18 Yeah.

Esther Perel 36:18 That's how you do a relationship. It's really based on the repair. It's not based on the... [laughs]

Lewis Howes 36:25 It's how we heal the disappointment.

Esther Perel 36:26 Yes. It's how you repair all these breaches.

Lewis Howes 36:29 Yeah.

Esther Perel 36:29 Moment by moment. You come back, you know, and the repair is not, "I am so sorry." The repair may sometimes be, "Hey, do you want a glass of water?" Or, "Hey, did you see this article in the newspaper?" John Gottman has this very interesting thing about that. He says the repair is not that you come and you do a mea culpa. It's that you do what he calls bids for connection. You show the other that they still matter.

Lewis Howes 36:52 Hmm.

Esther Perel 36:53 I brought the newspaper in, at a time when we still had newspapers.

Lewis Howes 36:56 Right, right, right, right.

Esther Perel 36:56 That was one of his examples. You know, I brought the paper in. Like I think of you. I'm pissed at you. You just annoyed me. We just had a spat, but I s- but you're still-

Lewis Howes 37:05 I still care about you

Esther Perel 37:06 ... I still care.

Lewis Howes 37:06 I still value you.

Esther Perel 37:06 You're still in my life. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 37:07 I still respect you. So it's how we repair a disappointment on a daily or weekly or monthly basis-

Esther Perel 37:12 Minutes sometimes

Lewis Howes 37:14 ... is the, is the, the success of the relationship.

Esther Perel 37:16 And that means also how you come and you say you take responsibility. Yes.

Lewis Howes 37:21 Right. Right.

Esther Perel 37:21 I think, I actually think that taking responsibility is the ultimate freedom.

Lewis Howes 37:25 Really?

Esther Perel 37:26 I've, I messed up. I shouldn't have done this. You know, can I do that? You know, it really is being accountable.

Lewis Howes 37:33 Mm-hmm. What if you're ... It wasn't your fault.

Esther Perel 37:35 Instead of blaming the other.

Lewis Howes 37:36 What if it, what if it actually in that moment wasn't your fault?

Esther Perel 37:38 Doesn't matter.

Lewis Howes 37:39 It's crazy but-

Esther Perel 37:40 It was ... You don't have to agree with anything.

Lewis Howes 37:41 Hmm.

Esther Perel 37:42 I didn't mean to. It wasn't my intention.

Lewis Howes 37:45 Yeah.

Esther Perel 37:46 It's so ... Do you know, we are going to slip a lot.

Lewis Howes 37:49 Right.

Esther Perel 37:49 But it's about just saying it, and for that you have to ... It's about saying it, and for that you have to be able to see that you're a flawed person-

Lewis Howes 37:57 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 37:59 ... who can be accountable-

Lewis Howes 38:01 Yeah

Esther Perel 38:01 ... without that becoming a major source of shame and I'm terrible. It's a different thing between saying, "I messed up," and, "I'm messed up."

Lewis Howes 38:09 How ... I like this distinction. How do we in our mind ... Because I think in the past relationships when I messed up in a small term.

Esther Perel 38:18 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 38:19 Right? Like a disappointment.

Esther Perel 38:20 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 38:20 A small disappointment. Feeling, saying like I'm sorry-

Esther Perel 38:24 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 38:24 ... or saying, taking responsibility or saying, you know, "That was my fault."

Esther Perel 38:27 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 38:28 When-

Esther Perel 38:28 Was like a humiliation.

Lewis Howes 38:29 Well, it was more like look at ... When I'm like, look at all the-

Esther Perel 38:32 Why should I?

Lewis Howes 38:33 No. It's more like here's all the actions I'm doing right.

Esther Perel 38:36 Right.

Lewis Howes 38:37 Today I've done this.

Esther Perel 38:38 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 38:38 Which was an expectation, and I've done that, and I took the trash out or whatever. I'm just ... And I, you know, did something kind for you, and I wrote a note, and I did this, and I took us to dinner. I did all these things well today, but I messed up on this one thing.

Esther Perel 38:50 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 38:51 So for me, I used to say to myself like, "Gosh, but can't you see the whole picture of like all the good things I'm doing? Why do I need to be an hour conversation about like one small thing?" That's what I used to feel like. And do you feel like we should just be saying, you know what? Take responsibility anyways for those moments.

Esther Perel 39:08 Yes.

Lewis Howes 39:08 Even if you're doing lots of good things.

Esther Perel 39:10 Uh-huh. So-

Lewis Howes 39:10 You know what I mean?

Esther Perel 39:11 Yes, but the-

Lewis Howes 39:11 I'm not a perfect human being. You know, it's like I might slip. [laughs]

Esther Perel 39:17 It, the story is told by you.

Lewis Howes 39:19 Yes.

Esther Perel 39:21 The other person is the one that needs to take to tell you about all the good things that you've done.

Lewis Howes 39:26 Uh-huh.

Esther Perel 39:27 S- I- if you felt I do all of this, I do one thing wrong, and now I have to go into the dark pit.

Lewis Howes 39:33 Yes.

Esther Perel 39:34 You know? But that's because you had a partner who did not enough tell you about all the good things you did.

Lewis Howes 39:39 Right. So this was about me.

Esther Perel 39:41 If you are in a relationship, you need that other person to acknowledge all of the positive stuff so that when you have to say something about the moment that you messed up, you don't feel like, you know, this is an endless chore.

Lewis Howes 39:54 Well, I think, yeah, exactly. Or I think it's more like, okay, if you're gonna acknowledge one thing that I didn't do, at least acknowledge something of the things-

Esther Perel 40:02 That's right

Lewis Howes 40:02 ... I did do. Right?

Esther Perel 40:03 That it's not at least. It's a must.

Lewis Howes 40:05 It's a must.

Esther Perel 40:06 It's a must.

Lewis Howes 40:06 Well, it's not, it's not bad if I ... I shouldn't be needing that, or I shouldn't be-

Esther Perel 40:10 You should need it

Lewis Howes 40:11 ... complaining. I should need it. Right.

Esther Perel 40:12 You should need it.

Lewis Howes 40:12 Yeah.

Esther Perel 40:13 You totally should need it.

Lewis Howes 40:14 Gotcha.

Esther Perel 40:15 But-

Lewis Howes 40:15 Don't only acknowledge the bad. Also acknowledge the good.

Esther Perel 40:17 Not also. It's, it's, it's a must. It's a mandate.

Lewis Howes 40:21 Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 40:22 You know? What happens sometimes in distressed relationships-

Lewis Howes 40:26 Yeah

Esther Perel 40:26 ... because you were in a distressed relationship-

Lewis Howes 40:28 Yeah, yeah

Esther Perel 40:28 ... at that moment.

Lewis Howes 40:28 Yes.

Esther Perel 40:28 And this is true. You can directly take this into the workplace. In a distressed relationship, the tendency is to highlight the negative and disregard the positive.

Lewis Howes 40:41 Right.

Esther Perel 40:41 The positive is just a given. The negative we make a big deal out of it. So the one thing you didn't do becomes the whole conversation. And then what does that person do? Of course that person says, "But you disregard all the other stuff."

Lewis Howes 40:55 Yeah.

Esther Perel 40:56 And rightly so because it has been disregarded.

Lewis Howes 40:59 Hmm.

Esther Perel 40:59 In a distressed relationship, the positive ... You know, if we get there on time, it's because there was no traffic, and if we get there late, it's because of you. The good is chance. The bad is attributed to you. Or in a different version of that is what we call negative attribution error. If I am in a bad mood, it's because I had a bad day, but if you're in a bad mood, it's because you're a nasty person who is always so cantankerous.

Lewis Howes 41:25 Right.

Esther Perel 41:25 Mine is circumstantial. Yours is characterological. So when you'd say I was in a relationship in which when I did one thing bad, it was so overblown, and I felt like everything else was being disregarded, that's a sign of a distressed relationship-

Lewis Howes 41:41 Hmm

Esther Perel 41:42 ... in and of itself.

Lewis Howes 41:42 Interesting. Where-

Esther Perel 41:44 The fact that-

Lewis Howes 41:45 Okay

Esther Perel 41:45 ... you ... Because in a normal relationship, somebody else says, "Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you." Then you finally don't do something and says, "Oh, I really messed up there. I forgot. Sorry."

Lewis Howes 41:53 Right.

Esther Perel 41:55 And it's not such a big deal.

Lewis Howes 41:56 Okay.

Esther Perel 41:56 Because you are seen for the whole person.

Lewis Howes 41:58 Right.

Esther Perel 41:58 If you have to make a speech about you should see the whole person, you're not in a good relationship.

Lewis Howes 42:04 Ah, there you go. Okay.

Esther Perel 42:05 Or you're not in ... The dynamic in your relationship-

Lewis Howes 42:07 It's not working

Esther Perel 42:07 ... is not a good one.

Lewis Howes 42:08 Yeah. Okay.

Esther Perel 42:08 No. That's, that, that in itself is a sign of a bad dynamic.

Lewis Howes 42:12 Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay.

Esther Perel 42:12 You shouldn't have to say this.

Lewis Howes 42:13 So I wasn't crazy. Okay, gotcha.

Esther Perel 42:15 No.

Lewis Howes 42:15 Okay. Gotcha. [laughs]

Esther Perel 42:17 No.

Lewis Howes 42:17 And-

Esther Perel 42:17 And the interesting thing about this is how much it applies at home.

Lewis Howes 42:22 Hmm.

Esther Perel 42:22 And the same thing happens at work.

Lewis Howes 42:25 And at work. So is it a mandate to acknowledge, uh, team members at work as well in the good and not just the negative?

Esther Perel 42:36 I absolutely think so.

Lewis Howes 42:38 Yeah.

Esther Perel 42:38 But I am not the best at it myself.

Lewis Howes 42:40 Right. [laughs]

Esther Perel 42:40 [laughs] You know?

Lewis Howes 42:41 So you don't acknowledge your team the best.

Esther Perel 42:42 I do. I do.

Lewis Howes 42:43 It's hard.

Esther Perel 42:44 But I-

Lewis Howes 42:44 When we're running the show, we see a lot of the, the things that are slipping through, right?

Esther Perel 42:47 Yeah. It's like, uh, my tendency is to, it, it, it-

Lewis Howes 42:51 But it's different because in a relationship you're not... It's not a paycheck, right? It's like, well, maybe there is, but it's different in terms of, like, an intimate relationship versus a working relationship.

Esther Perel 42:59 How much has your team taught you? Because look-

Lewis Howes 43:01 A lot

Esther Perel 43:02 ... you are probably like me. We wouldn't be sitting here on some level if we were not actually more self-critical people.

Lewis Howes 43:09 Of course.

Esther Perel 43:09 And very demanding of ourselves.

Lewis Howes 43:11 Of course.

Esther Perel 43:12 And hence we surround ourselves by people who we think we can be demanding from as well.

Lewis Howes 43:17 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 43:17 And that is true. But it is also important that we learn to be sometimes a little kinder with ourselves-

Lewis Howes 43:24 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 43:25 ... and not just highlight the negative.

Lewis Howes 43:27 I know.

Esther Perel 43:28 While at the same time asking the girlfriend to not be like that-

Lewis Howes 43:31 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 43:32 ... even though you are doing it with yourself

Lewis Howes 43:33 Sure, sure.

Esther Perel 43:34 And to also do it with our team.

Lewis Howes 43:36 Yeah.

Esther Perel 43:36 Um, I, I don't think you can go wrong, you know, if it's not g- just kind of fluff.

Lewis Howes 43:41 Yeah.

Esther Perel 43:41 I think that acknowledging the efforts of people is a good thing to learn, and my team teaches me that.

Lewis Howes 43:48 It teaches me a lot too.

Esther Perel 43:48 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 43:49 Yeah. I've grown so much in the last seven, eight years of launching this and my business just by seeing how much, you know, my words or my energy could affect someone if, you know, I'm only focusing on, like, what they messed up on.

Esther Perel 44:02 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 44:02 So we, we do acknowledgement all the time. In every meeting, it's like we try to acknowledge a team member and acknowledge people all the time because I've learned over the years of just, like, it's not good just to focus on the negative and what's, what's not working, even if you're the boss and even if you're paying everyone or whatever it may be.

Esther Perel 44:18 And have you ever connected that to the fact that your focus was on self-reliance? See, they come together.

Lewis Howes 44:25 Right, right.

Esther Perel 44:25 Self... Autonomous people, people who were raised for autonomy need to learn what you're describing.

Lewis Howes 44:32 Yeah.

Esther Perel 44:32 To be more... To, to give those comment, to see what other people are doing. They need to learn not to just look like this.

Lewis Howes 44:37 Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's true.

Lewis Howes 44:40 Now in how's work, I'm excited to dive in on this. I had a, a business partnership before the School of Greatness about eight years ago that we s- we started a company together, I guess 11 years ago we started a company, and we ran this for like three years.

Esther Perel 44:54 Wow. Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 44:56 The company took off. It started to be very successful financially. Started making millions of dollars in sales a year with a very small team. It was essentially just us.

Esther Perel 45:05 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 45:05 And we outsourced a few things. And it did very well until the dynamics of the relationship started to change. We had both had nothing starting out, and then we grew and we started to get some success, some financial stability, things like that. And things started to shift where we didn't have our values aligned, we didn't have our, I guess, our work ethic aligned, and we didn't communicate about-

Esther Perel 45:28 Be specific

Lewis Howes 45:30 ... we didn't communicate about expectations. We went into it quickly into a business partnership.

Esther Perel 45:34 Were you friends before?

Lewis Howes 45:36 We were friends maybe for, like, six months. Like, we had just met.

Esther Perel 45:39 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 45:39 We were in a coworking space. I was working on something similar to what he was working on. Let's... We were just talking and hanging out, helping each other, giving advice, and then we worked on a project together.

Esther Perel 45:49 Hey, we should do-

Lewis Howes 45:50 Hey, let's try this thing. It did well. "Let's do this again next week. Let's keep doing. We're making money. Let's, let's grow it. Okay, now let's build a business together." So there was not a level of communication beforehand or an agreement on, okay, if in five years you wanna leave, what's the expectation? If I wanna leave, we didn't have that. So I take full responsibility with both of us not clearly communicating expectations. And so anyways, after a few years, we... I start to get a lot of resentment because I had an expectation that this person would be working as hard as me. I'm up till 2:00 AM every night. He has, uh, kids and a wife. I don't have that, so I can work all day, all night. And I'm thinking, "Let's grow this thing. Let's build this thing." And I didn't communicate, so I take full responsibility. So after a while, I remember saying to myself, "Why am I, why am I giving up 50% of this when I'm doing 90% of the, the sales generating-

Esther Perel 46:52 Yep

Lewis Howes 46:52 ... efforts-

Esther Perel 46:52 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 46:52 ... that are bringing in the revenue?" Right? And I even had him, um... I was like, a lot of our stuff was based on sales from live webinars, and I was the guy who was doing the live webinars. So I even said like, "Hey, why don't you try to do this webinar on your, on your own and see if you can generate some sales?" And there was zero sales when he did it. So I think he realized, okay, like, in order to generate income, he needed someone to sell for him. And where I was, I was thinking like, "Okay, I could probably pay someone five grand a month to do all the responsibilities of him, but he's generating a lot more than that." And so there was a level of resentment where I just didn't communicate. I just got angry and was resentful.

Esther Perel 47:30 And when you get angry, what do you do?

Lewis Howes 47:33 Um, I would be reactive. I'd be dismissive. I would be, you know, I would be distant. I would focus on my own stuff. And I started thinking of like, "How do I get out of this?" Right? "How, how do I get out of this?" I was also very immature. Didn't know, like, didn't really know myself, didn't heal my trauma from the past, like didn't do all these things before this. And I remember, like, going through a lot of internal pain and suffering because of this lack, my, my lack of emotional courage to have hard conversations.

Esther Perel 48:06 Was he acknowledging the fact that... W- did you have a shared sense of reality?

Lewis Howes 48:11 Uh, no, no.

Esther Perel 48:11 Did he agree with what you see?

Lewis Howes 48:12 No, no, no. No.

Esther Perel 48:13 So that's the first thing.

Lewis Howes 48:14 I think, I think until he d- he tried, like, to do a webinar himself to sell and he, he didn't make any money on it-

Esther Perel 48:19 Right

Lewis Howes 48:19 ... I think he, it was like a first wake-up call, like, "Oh, I guess I do need Lewis in a sense."

Esther Perel 48:24 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 48:24 Like, we needed each other until a point where I was like, "I can just pay someone to do your job," but we had started this together.

Esther Perel 48:31 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 48:32 So it was just, like, trying to figure, it was just messy.

Esther Perel 48:33 And then?

Lewis Howes 48:35 Um, I remember, like, we were in the middle of Times Square one day arguing, and a friend of ours was there, a mutual friend, and we were arguing, and it just got really heated. And I wanted to, like, literally fight him in the middle of Times Square 'cause I was like, "You're not holding your weight. I'm doing this." You know, it's just like an argument. We're both arguing our case, right? And I was just like, "This is not working," you know? "And it's not gonna work." I ended up selling the company to him. I, I remember I ended up started going through emotional intelligence work and starting healing trauma in the past. And I approached him and I said, "Even though I have this-

Esther Perel 49:07 What was the piece that you needed to address from the past that was gonna help you with this?

Lewis Howes 49:13 Um, I... What wasn't the piece I needed to address? But I think it was the sexual abuse and the trauma that I faced, and a lot of, like, feeling abused and taken advantage of my entire life. Feeling like people were out to get me or fairness, of like what's fair, what should we both have, what should we both get type of thing. So I think once I started to do a lot of that work on myself and heal from past hurts from other people-

Esther Perel 49:36 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 49:36 ... where I felt taken advantage of.

Esther Perel 49:38 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 49:39 I remember coming to him and emailing him and saying, "Hey, I wanna meet you in person." And literally, the first thing I said was like 10 minutes of acknowledging him and gratitude for him. For-

Esther Perel 49:50 I wouldn't have started this without you.

Lewis Howes 49:52 I was just like, "There's no way we'd be here right now without you. I'm so grateful." Even if there was, like, things I wasn't happy with, I was just like, "Here are all the things I'm really grateful about you."

Esther Perel 50:01 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 50:01 And I think he was in shock because for six, seven months prior, it was a lot of stress for both of us.

Esther Perel 50:07 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 50:07 A lot of resentment, both sides. But that mindset and attitude was able to get us to a place to, um, find a deal where I sold the company to him. Where if s- if I didn't come to him from that place of gratitude, I probably wouldn't have been able to sell it to him. And there were other challenges since where I exited that we had, but I remember I needed to come from a place of gratitude. I needed to come from a place of calm and peace in order to make some resolution happen. And you have a show, I know we, we're, I'm actually over my time right now, just wanna be respectful. But your show, How's Work?, deals with a lot of people who are in partnerships and business that, like, go through different challenges of business, right?

Esther Perel 50:49 So your story could be an episode on How's Work?

Lewis Howes 50:53 [laughs] Okay.

Esther Perel 50:54 Complete.

Lewis Howes 50:54 Right.

Esther Perel 50:55 You know, um, every... Your story says, "In order for me to deal with my co-founder, I needed to deal with the other part of my resume, my relationship history."

Lewis Howes 51:09 My past, yeah.

Esther Perel 51:09 I needed... My past. The past, the way that I had felt that people had used me.

Lewis Howes 51:13 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 51:14 The way that I felt that I've always had to do more.

Lewis Howes 51:16 Yeah.

Esther Perel 51:16 The way that I felt that even when I did more, they still thought that they did, that more than me.

Lewis Howes 51:20 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 51:20 The way that I didn't know if I took them on, that they wouldn't hurt me more.

Lewis Howes 51:24 Right.

Esther Perel 51:24 You know, and so my invisible history that is right there as I'm working with my co-founder-

Lewis Howes 51:32 That he didn't know about

Esther Perel 51:33 ... that he did not know about, you know? Um, that was, that's an episode of How's Work?

Lewis Howes 51:39 Mm.

Esther Perel 51:39 That's what we address. I deal with co... It's, it's where should we begin for anybody who's ever had a job?

Lewis Howes 51:45 Oh, that's good.

Esther Perel 51:45 It's co-founders, colleagues, co, coworkers, family business.

Lewis Howes 51:49 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 51:50 65% of co- of startups will fail like yours-

Lewis Howes 51:54 Yeah

Esther Perel 51:54 ... because of the relationship between the co-founders.

Lewis Howes 51:57 Wow.

Esther Perel 51:57 Just so you know.

Lewis Howes 51:57 They fail because-

Esther Perel 51:58 That's Wasserman at-

Lewis Howes 51:58 ... of the relationship

Esther Perel 51:59 ... because the relationship-

Lewis Howes 52:00 Not because of the economy-

Esther Perel 52:01 No

Lewis Howes 52:01 ... or because of customers

Esther Perel 52:01 No. That's an enormous amount of good ideas-

Lewis Howes 52:03 Wow

Esther Perel 52:03 ... that fall apart because the relat- That's, uh, Howard Wasserman at Harvard. That's not-

Lewis Howes 52:07 Right, right, right

Esther Perel 52:08 ... my s- statistic here. And what you did is you, first of all, went and you realized, "I am bringing stuff here-"

Lewis Howes 52:15 Of course

Esther Perel 52:15 ... "that I need to acknowledge." Then you went to him. You didn't just do gratitude. You actually did basic reality testing.

Lewis Howes 52:23 Yeah.

Esther Perel 52:23 It is true that without him you may not have been-

Lewis Howes 52:25 There's no way

Esther Perel 52:25 ... where you were or where you started and all of that.

Lewis Howes 52:27 There's no way. Absolutely.

Esther Perel 52:28 It was also true that at a certain moment you no longer wanted to continue-

Lewis Howes 52:33 Right

Esther Perel 52:34 ... be with him.

Lewis Howes 52:34 Right.

Esther Perel 52:35 And it's bo- it's this acknowled- it's the ability to not have to deprive the other of anything they've done-

Lewis Howes 52:41 Mm

Esther Perel 52:41 ... in order to justify-

Lewis Howes 52:42 Yeah

Esther Perel 52:43 ... and to just say, "I know you've done all of this." Of course, when you come to me and you first acknowledge my contribution, I'm not on the defensive.

Lewis Howes 52:50 Yeah.

Esther Perel 52:51 Then you can come, come and say, "I would like to sell you the company."

Lewis Howes 52:54 Right.

Esther Perel 52:55 Because I, if you came and you talked about everything you do, I would answer to you with everything I've done.

Lewis Howes 53:01 Mm.

Esther Perel 53:01 And everybody's holding their card. But if you come and you tell me what I have done, then I don't have to go into that script and I can actually choose a different path.

Lewis Howes 53:11 Yeah.

Esther Perel 53:11 I don't have to, to, to hold on my credentials and remind you what I have done here.

Lewis Howes 53:16 Wow.

Esther Perel 53:16 But this thing about two people who start together and one starts to do more and feels that they are pulling, putting in all the effort, and they're the degenerating one, and that-

Lewis Howes 53:26 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 53:26 ... you know, and then the other one is still trying to tell them, you know, "No, no, no, we are equal."

Lewis Howes 53:30 Right.

Esther Perel 53:30 And they feel like we are not equal anymore, and it's unfair. And then it taps into, and I know that feeling, used feeling.

Lewis Howes 53:37 [laughs]

Esther Perel 53:37 I've been there, you know? And, ah, one, I-

Lewis Howes 53:41 Yeah

Esther Perel 53:41 ... and now you have this past and the present sitting on each other, the personal and the professional, the invisible resume with the re- reality of the workplace. M- I wish you'd come with your partner to an episode.

Lewis Howes 53:52 [laughs]

Esther Perel 53:53 But I invite anybody else in a similar situation to come and do an episode-

Lewis Howes 53:58 Wow

Esther Perel 53:58 ... of How's Work?

Lewis Howes 53:59 Okay.

Esther Perel 53:59 That, that is, it's riveting.

Lewis Howes 54:01 Wow.

Esther Perel 54:02 It's riveting because you tell it now and, and I listen to it like that because you made the connections.

Lewis Howes 54:08 Yeah.

Esther Perel 54:09 But the episode is often the opportunity for people to make the connections for the first time.

Lewis Howes 54:13 Before they... Wow.

Esther Perel 54:14 No. With me.

Lewis Howes 54:16 In it the first time.

Esther Perel 54:16 In the session.

Lewis Howes 54:17 They're stressed out, they're-

Esther Perel 54:18 It's a three-hour session-

Lewis Howes 54:19 Wow

Esther Perel 54:19 ... that then gets edited. But it's a three-hour session with the colleagues and the co-founders going exactly into that, you know?

Lewis Howes 54:26 Wow.

Esther Perel 54:27 I have two firefighter pilots. They w- they were in Iraq and Afghanistan together, and they then create a company. The company's very successful, and then at one point one of them wants to go and do something that the other one doesn't wanna do. And their whole question is, "Were we successful 'cause we had a great idea?"

Lewis Howes 54:43 Mm.

Esther Perel 54:43 "Are we successful because we had each other?" I have two Brits who are college friends like you who say, "Let's do this thing." They start with a f- l- an idea, and it becomes this- Lucrative, successful communications company, but they can't talk to each other one word.

Lewis Howes 54:57 [laughs]

Esther Perel 54:58 You know? And they realize it in the session. So you're telling me the story after the fact.

Lewis Howes 55:04 Absolutely, yeah, yeah.

Esther Perel 55:04 How His Work is the actual unearthing of this very dynamic

Lewis Howes 55:08 I'm excited to listen. Where's, Where Should We Begin? is amazing, so I'm excited to listen to this as well. So anyone who's got a job or entrepreneur or got a co-founder with you, go listen to that right now. Um, they're both on Spotify, right?

Esther Perel 55:20 On Spotify and anywhere else-

Lewis Howes 55:22 Apple, Spotify

Esther Perel 55:22 ... where you listen to your podcasts.

Lewis Howes 55:24 Okay. Uh, this is a question I've asked you before, I think the last time you came on, but I wanna ask you again to see if it's different.

Esther Perel 55:30 See if it's... [laughs]

Lewis Howes 55:31 And I'm gonna go back and check them. Um,

Lewis Howes 55:33 this is called the three truths. So imagine it's your last day on this earth, and you have to say goodbye, and your body dies, and you go on to the next place, wherever that is. And it could be any year, any time, hundreds of years from now, but eventually you gotta go. And you've accomplished every dream you can imagine. You've, you know, healed millions of relationships. You've written the books. You've done the speeches. Anything you wanna do, you've created it, but it's all gotta go with you, all of your work, all of your message. But you get to leave behind to the world three things you know to be true from all of your work and life experiences, three lessons that you would share with the world to live by. What would you say are your three truths?

Esther Perel 56:22 The quality of your relationships determines the quality of your life.

Lewis Howes 56:26 Mm-hmm. Okay.

Esther Perel 56:33 Hence, make sure that you have a rich life, and invest in your relationships. Nobody's ever died hoping they had worked more.

Lewis Howes 56:47 Yeah.

Esther Perel 56:48 Um, and then the next one is make it so that when people remember you, they smile.

Lewis Howes 56:55 Hmm. That's a good one. Never heard that one.

Esther Perel 56:58 That they were touched by you in a way that really left them with something to cherish.

Lewis Howes 57:03 Hmm.

Esther Perel 57:04 I see so many people in my office as a therapist who, who are left with things that people left them with that are bitter-

Lewis Howes 57:14 Hmm

Esther Perel 57:14 ... cruel, hurtful, and I just think I want to be remembered with a smile.

Lewis Howes 57:21 Wow, that's a good one.

Esther Perel 57:22 As somebody, you know, it was a, it was great to know her, to meet her, to have her in my life, as my mother, as my wife, as my friend, as my boss. Um-

Lewis Howes 57:32 Hmm

Esther Perel 57:32 ... if you have that, then you continue to live inside the hearts and minds of others in a way that, um-

Lewis Howes 57:41 You leave a positive impact for many years to come.

Esther Perel 57:43 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 57:43 That's beautiful. Okay. And the third one?

Esther Perel 57:46 Oh, I thought there were only three.

Lewis Howes 57:48 The first one was the quality of life. Uh, or quality relationships-

Esther Perel 57:50 Determines the quality-

Lewis Howes 57:51 ... and the quality of your life.

Esther Perel 57:52 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 57:52 Yeah.

Esther Perel 57:52 The second one would have been therefore you invest in your relationships.

Lewis Howes 57:56 Okay. Okay.

Esther Perel 57:57 Um, nobody has ever really, seriously... People, on every deathbed, people will talk about how they wish they had spent more time with their loved ones.

Lewis Howes 58:07 Hmm.

Esther Perel 58:07 And I actually have to say I don't think I will say that because I'm doing it.

Lewis Howes 58:12 Hmm.

Esther Perel 58:14 Um, and the, but if it was the third one, I think it would be something inspired by what you probably would think. If you have a dream that has accompanied you your whole life, go ahead and try it, if it's doable.

Lewis Howes 58:28 Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 58:31 It would be the pity that you would spend... I mean, there are certain things you won't do. I will never be a pilot, you know, that kinda-

Lewis Howes 58:36 Right.

Esther Perel 58:37 But there are certain things that you know you wanna try one day. Just go ahead and dare it.

Lewis Howes 58:42 Yeah.

Esther Perel 58:42 What, what, what do you stand to lose-

Lewis Howes 58:44 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 58:44 ... on some of these things? And I think that's a piece that I take from your work, is that-

Lewis Howes 58:48 Yeah

Esther Perel 58:48 ... that notion of there's, there's so many ways that you can explain why you don't. Go ahead and dare.

Lewis Howes 58:57 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 58:57 Dare yourself on some things. You wanna play that freaking piano, go get yourself a music, whatever it is. Dare.

Lewis Howes 59:04 Yeah.

Esther Perel 59:04 And I like that, that I, I take from you.

Lewis Howes 59:06 That's great. Thank you. I wanna acknowledge you, Esther, for, for constantly showing up. You bring so much healing to so many people, and clarity and inspiration. Every time you speak, I swear it's like soundbites of, like, clarity and inspiration to how to live a better life and have better relationships. So I'm so grateful for you. I acknowledge you for this. Where Should We Begin? is amazing. For anyone in an intimate relationship, you have to go watch or listen to it.

Esther Perel 59:30 Season four coming out soon.

Lewis Howes 59:31 Season... The first two I listened to were unbelievable. I remember listening in the car, and like-

Esther Perel 59:35 I mean, you have to listen to four when it comes.

Lewis Howes 59:37 I will.

Esther Perel 59:37 Three is incredible, but four is even better.

Lewis Howes 59:39 Okay. [laughs]

Esther Perel 59:39 They keep getting better is all I can tell you.

Lewis Howes 59:42 How's Work? I'm excited to dive into. You can listen both on Apple or Spotify or anywhere podcasts are.

Esther Perel 59:47 Anywhere, yep.

Lewis Howes 59:48 Um, where else can we support you or h- and follow you? Where do you-

Esther Perel 59:52 I, I, I mean, you know I told you about the newsletter and the blog.

Lewis Howes 59:56 Yeah.

Esther Perel 59:56 I really write. People want... I don't always wanna write another book.

Lewis Howes 59:59 Where can they get that?

Esther Perel 59:59 On my website, on social, on all the channels.

Lewis Howes 1:00:02 Esther Perel dot com?

Esther Perel 1:00:04 Estherperel.com.

Lewis Howes 1:00:04 Okay.

Esther Perel 1:00:04 And, uh, it's monthly. It's, uh, it's really what we are talking about, but in a, on a deeper level-

Lewis Howes 1:00:11 Okay

Esther Perel 1:00:11 ... so that I can't always do another, you know, book.

Lewis Howes 1:00:14 Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:00:14 Of course, there's the books.

Lewis Howes 1:00:16 Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:00:16 Mating in Captivity and The State of Affairs. Um, and there's two other things. If you're a coach or a therapist, it is my training platform, which is called Sessions with Esther Perel-

Lewis Howes 1:00:28 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 1:00:29 ... where I, like you, bring some of the people that I learn from the most in the field of relationships.

Lewis Howes 1:00:36 Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:00:36 And then if you're a couple and you feel like your sexuality has sagged and you're on a, in a rut, Rekindling Desire is the place to go.

Lewis Howes 1:00:45 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:00:45 It's also on the website, and it's the course that you take to kind of reconnect with your erotic self.

Lewis Howes 1:00:51 Hmm. Esther, appreciate you. You're the best. Thank you so much.

Esther Perel 1:00:55 Thank you.

Lewis Howes 1:00:55 Thanks a lot.

Esther Perel 1:00:55 It's a pleasure to be back.

Lewis Howes 1:00:56 Thanks a lot.

Esther Perel 1:00:56 I'll come again. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:00:57 Let's do it. Let's do it. I love it.