Trauma Expert: You Will Never HEAL Unless You Do This | David Kessler

David Kessler 0:00 If you grieve well, you live well.

Lewis Howes 0:02 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 0:03 Grief is about change. Those of us who can manage change well actually are happier in life.

Lewis Howes 0:09 Mm.

David Kessler 0:10 If you get stuck in the breakup, the job loss, whatever it is, you're not gonna do well.

Lewis Howes 0:16 He's one of the world's foremost grief experts and best-selling author who has helped millions of people learn how to heal after loss. Please welcome David Kessler.

David Kessler 0:25 Grief must be witnessed.

Lewis Howes 0:27 What does that mean?

David Kessler 0:28 It means if you're in grief, you need another person to go, "That job meant a lot. I'm so sorry that happened to you."

Lewis Howes 0:35 Why does that need to happen?

David Kessler 0:37 Because we need to have our pain and our love and our attachment witnessed in someone else's eyes.

Lewis Howes 0:44 A lot of people have heard about the five stages of grief. You've added a sixth stage of grief. Can you briefly share what these six stages of grief is?

David Kessler 0:54 Sure. So-

Lewis Howes 1:01 A lot of people have heard about the five stages of grief if they've gone through something and they've-

David Kessler 1:05 Right

Lewis Howes 1:05 ... studied this. You've added a sixth stage of grief. Can you briefly share what these six stages of grief is?

David Kessler 1:13 Sure. So Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, who did hospice and grief and loss, she's the one who came up with them, and what was amazing that she did is she didn't invent something. She observed something in people, and she was like, you know, the sun always comes up in the east. It sets in the west. People seem to go through this denial, "I can't believe this is happening." Anger, pissed about this. Bargaining, "If only I had done that. If only we had tried this." Then depression, the sadness, and acceptance, and people thought, like, there's one big acceptance. There's a million acceptances that we're always going through. So those are the stages, and what's remarkable is they work when someone dies, but they work in a breakup, divorce, job loss, big changes. In fact, I always define grief as a change we didn't want.

Lewis Howes 2:19 Mm.

David Kessler 2:20 It's interesting. You know, sometimes I'll be talking to someone and they know, like, I maybe have, uh, did a lecture at Coca-Cola or General Mills or Dow Jones, and they're like, "Why are you lecturing to grief with them? Do they have a lot of grief?" And I'm like, "No. Companies wanna learn how to manage change." Grief is about change. Those of us who can manage change well actually are happier in life.

Lewis Howes 2:50 Mm.

David Kessler 2:51 So I always want people to know if you grieve well, you live well.

Lewis Howes 2:56 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 2:56 If you get stuck in the breakup, the job loss, whatever it is, you're not gonna do well. So I was really honored to work with Kubler-Ross. She taught me, and I was able to do a couple of books with her and adapt her stages of dying to stages of grief formally with her. And about, uh, nine years ago,

David Kessler 3:20 I thought my grief was long behind me, and my younger son, David, died unexpectedly.

Lewis Howes 3:28 Mm.

David Kessler 3:30 And as brutal as you would imagine, I was on the floor, and I remember back then that at some point I thought, "I have to find a way through this. What do I do for other people?"

Lewis Howes 3:48 Now, you're the grief expert.

David Kessler 3:49 Expert.

Lewis Howes 3:50 You've written books about it.

David Kessler 3:51 Right. Helped a million bereaved parents.

Lewis Howes 3:54 Yes.

David Kessler 3:54 And now I'm in it-

Lewis Howes 3:56 Oh my God

David Kessler 3:56 ... in the epicenter.

Lewis Howes 3:58 Now, how, how long were you in it? Were you... And did you beat yourself up for being like, "I'm the expert. Why am I still feeling anger, sadness when I know these steps? I've taught this for years, and yet I'm still in this"?

David Kessler 4:11 There was an observer in me.

Lewis Howes 4:13 Uh-huh.

David Kessler 4:14 And there were moments that were really those two got separated. Like, I used to tell people, "Go see a counselor. Go to a grief group." I handed that out like candy at Halloween.

Lewis Howes 4:25 Yeah.

David Kessler 4:26 When I had to go to a grief group, took me three times. I was like, "There's traffic. There's always traffic in LA."

Lewis Howes 4:34 [laughs] Yeah.

David Kessler 4:34 "I can't find a parking place." Finally, the third time I went into this grief group and I was like, "Grief group, I shouldn't be here," and which is a feeling we have in grief, "This shouldn't be happening to me," and literally I had to sit down in a chair with these other parents with a table of books, and my books were on that table.

Lewis Howes 4:59 Wow.

David Kessler 5:00 And I couldn't say, "Oh, that's me. I'm that author." I had to be the father that buried a child.

Lewis Howes 5:06 Ugh.

David Kessler 5:08 So brutal, brutal, brutal, and I eventually would notice, "Yep, you're in denial. Yep, you're..." Try... And then I thought, "I gotta accept this someday," and that wasn't enough. I'm like, "It can't end with acceptance. I need more."

Lewis Howes 5:27 Because if you just accept something, then what?

David Kessler 5:31 Well, it felt, it felt like a low baseline. All right, I accepted it.

Lewis Howes 5:36 Yeah. Li-

David Kessler 5:37 Feel-

Lewis Howes 5:37 Life sucks. I accept it

David Kessler 5:38 ... life sucks.

Lewis Howes 5:39 This happened.

David Kessler 5:40 My life sucks, and, you know, there were a lot of people who were like, "This shouldn't have happened to you." And it's like, "Why? Well, why not me?" Like, I'm not exempt from human life, and so it was really I looked at this and I was like, "I know I've been teaching for years. No matter what you've been through, you can find joy and happiness again." Even though I couldn't see it when I was in it, people would remind me. And I eventually thought about I wanna... There has to be more. Could it be meaning? And I went back and read Viktor Frankl's book, A Man's Search for Meaning, and meaning didn't always jive with people in grief, 'cause it would be like, there's no meaning in a horrible death. There's no meaning in a murder. There's no meaning in the... And I realized, and the work became to understand the meaning is not in the horrible event.

David Kessler 6:43 The meaning is in us.

Lewis Howes 6:45 Mm.

David Kessler 6:46 Who do we become after the horrible event? And I also thought back to my son, David, who loved my work.

Lewis Howes 6:55 Mm.

David Kessler 6:56 And he would not have wanted his death to constrict it.

Lewis Howes 7:01 Mm.

David Kessler 7:02 And I thought, "Then I have to expand it."

Lewis Howes 7:05 Wow. If you could go back and think about who were you before his death, and who are you now after his death?

David Kessler 7:13 Right.

Lewis Howes 7:13 What is the meaning you've given that in your life?

David Kessler 7:17 I appreciate it even more, life. I get this, how temporary this is even more, how we don't live and how, how we don't know who's gonna live and who's gonna die, what's gonna happen. You know, we've talked about control. I had to manage a new layer of digging out some control-

Lewis Howes 7:42 Mm

David Kessler 7:42 ... to realize, oh, I have no control. I have illusions of control, but I have no control. No control. And what do I have control over? Oh, how I experience this moment, how I experience today, what I say yes to, what I say no to.

Lewis Howes 8:01 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 8:02 Then it all shifts. Then I have real power to make the most of my life.

Lewis Howes 8:06 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 8:08 And I try to be, like, evidence for people when, you know, I hear the horrific things they've gone through. I get it, and I have hope for you.

Lewis Howes 8:18 Mm.

David Kessler 8:19 And they'll go, "I don't." And I go, "That's all right. I'll hold hope until you can find it."

Lewis Howes 8:24 Wow. How long did it take for you to find hope?

David Kessler 8:27 I had a moment, like, at Christmas. I was with my older son at my son's grave, and he said-

Lewis Howes 8:36 The, the first Christmas after?

David Kessler 8:37 First Christmas after, and he said to me, "We are never doing the holidays again."

Lewis Howes 8:44 Oh.

David Kessler 8:46 And I had to go, "I feel that way, too." But I said, "You're still alive, and I'm still alive, and this Christmas is not happening. Next Christmas might not happen. Next Hanukkah, all those might not happen." But I said, "You know, I would hate to think you and I don't get any more holidays together."

Lewis Howes 9:09 Mm.

David Kessler 9:09 So I said, "We're gonna have to work on this."

Lewis Howes 9:12 Yeah. Wow. What was the step that you were in the most? Was it anger, bargaining, depression, denial? Like, which-

David Kessler 9:25 A lot of bargaining, a lot of what ifs-

Lewis Howes 9:27 I could, I could have done this differently or-

David Kessler 9:29 Yep, what ifs and if onlys.

Lewis Howes 9:31 Really?

David Kessler 9:32 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 9:32 What does that do to someone when they're going through a grief? It doesn't have to be a loss of a, a, a person, a life.

David Kessler 9:37 Yeah, it could be a divorce. It could be a break.

Lewis Howes 9:38 Anything.

David Kessler 9:39 It could be a job loss.

Lewis Howes 9:40 What does bargaining do, saying, "Oh, if I just would have not gone here that day a year ago, if I would have done this decision differently, or if I would have," whatever. What does bargaining do to someone when they ruminate on it consistently after loss?

David Kessler 9:54 It is the mind's way, and I wanna just s- put a caveat on this. We have to do that early on. We're gonna bargain. It's okay.

Lewis Howes 10:03 Really?

David Kessler 10:03 Allow yourself to bargain.

Lewis Howes 10:04 Uh-huh. Okay.

David Kessler 10:06 But eventually, it is the mind's way of avoiding reality.

Lewis Howes 10:11 Mm.

David Kessler 10:12 It is the mind would always be guilty, then helpless. I'd rather have a Rubik's Cube going, "They shouldn't have fired me. I shouldn't have been let go," da, da, da, da, than to sit with those feelings and get my resume together and get back out there.

Lewis Howes 10:32 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 10:33 This, my mind doesn't wanna live in a world that, wait a minute, I can be for years at a company and be fired? Wait a minute. We can be happy and then you want a divorce? Wait, wait. Everything's good, and then someone dies? Who wants to live in that world? None of us, but our mind's trying to regulate our nervous system.

Lewis Howes 10:55 Mm-hmm. So you were in the bargaining ph- phase a lot.

David Kessler 10:58 I still go back and visit from time to time.

Lewis Howes 11:00 Really?

David Kessler 11:01 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 11:01 Yeah. When did you feel like you got to a place of, of meaning?

David Kessler 11:06 Began to do the dance when I was working on the book and the Kubler-Ross family were saying, "We'll allow you to call it the sixth stage." Probably around two years I was getting glimpses of I'm going back to life.

Lewis Howes 11:23 Really?

David Kessler 11:23 Slowly, slowly.

Lewis Howes 11:25 How does someone find the meaning in loss?

David Kessler 11:30 Well, to realize it's not in it, it's in us after the loss.

Lewis Howes 11:34 What does that mean?

David Kessler 11:35 And it means things like what is there to find after the loss? It could be you realize the brevity of life, like this isn't forever. Let me make the most of this. It could be I wanna make sure no one dies that way. I wanna create change.

Lewis Howes 11:55 Mm.

David Kessler 11:56 It could be I need to find some gratitude for this. It could... You know, it's a million things that we can personalize to the loss. Like, one of the things I remember, and a lot of people have said this experience, that, like, my gosh, my son's funeral was packed. He did not know how loved he was.

Lewis Howes 12:16 Mm.

David Kessler 12:18 Let me try to take that in now

Lewis Howes 12:20 Mm

David Kessler 12:20 Let me help other people feel loved now. I don't wanna express my love for my friends at their funeral. I want them to know today.

Lewis Howes 12:31 Yeah.

David Kessler 12:31 Things like that change us

Lewis Howes 12:32 Why do you think it's so hard for people to express how they feel about their friends, family, and loved ones when they're alive rather than when they pass?

David Kessler 12:43 Here's the thing. We can't order feelings. We can't go, "All right. I wanna take love in, but I'm gonna suppress all these feelings." You're either a yes or a no to your feelings. You don't get to order them like you're at the restaurant. So if we want love, we're gonna have to allow everything else in.

Lewis Howes 13:06 Mm.

David Kessler 13:06 I'll give you a quick one on this that when I was ... Before all my, most of my work was online, I was going from hotel meeting room to hotel meeting room.

Lewis Howes 13:17 Mm-hmm

David Kessler 13:17 There'd be, you know, two, 300 people in my room. Next door would be the realtors. Down the hall would be the nurses. After we were done, after doing a day, the staff would go, "Hey, what were you teaching?" And I'd go, "Why do you ask?" And they'd go, "Your group was laughing the most." And I would go, "Grief?" And they would go, "What kind of grief?" And I go, "Yeah, that kind of grief." What ... It's hard for people to understand the people in my room cried harder but laughed harder.

Lewis Howes 13:51 Yeah.

David Kessler 13:51 Grief and feelings and allowing the range, all the colors of our feelings expands our life. Exp- Like I didn't think I'd be here talking to you about, oh, like loving people more and telling them, but it expands, and it's a fuller life.

Lewis Howes 14:10 Mm-hmm. There's something you said. Like if you're unwilling to experience the grief, then you're unwilling to, like fully love deeper.

David Kessler 14:20 Absolutely.

Lewis Howes 14:20 What ... Is that right?

David Kessler 14:21 To, you know, to live life fully. You can't do one without the

David Kessler 14:26 other.

Lewis Howes 14:26 Can someone fully experience love at the greatest levels if they're unwilling to go through grief at the deepest level?

David Kessler 14:33 Grief and love are a package deal this lifetime. You gotta take both.

Lewis Howes 14:39 Really?

David Kessler 14:40 And if, if I play safe, it's not as much joy. And plenty of people play safe. I've played safe. I'm sure you, we've all played safe, and I don't wanna play safe anymore. I mean, to me, playing safe is the scariest thing I could do.

Lewis Howes 15:01 Mm.

David Kessler 15:02 What a waste of life, you know? My gosh, we always wanna, like play your full game. Don't leave anything behind. And I think, you know, being, 'cause I also work with people who are dying and being at end of life, I mean, people have lots of regrets-

Lewis Howes 15:23 Mm

David Kessler 15:23 ... around not living fully and how scared they were.

Lewis Howes 15:26 Really?

David Kessler 15:27 And it becomes an illusion. You know, we don't regret the things we did often. We regret the things we didn't do.

Lewis Howes 15:35 Is there anything you regret right now?

David Kessler 15:38 Not in the moment.

Lewis Howes 15:39 Yeah, yeah.

David Kessler 15:39 Not in the moment.

Lewis Howes 15:40 Or in the last, I guess, 10 years, do you feel like it's f- not forced you, but allowed you to say, "I'm gonna really risk and go for it," whatever it is, saying what I wanna say or-

David Kessler 15:51 It is a constant process.

Lewis Howes 15:53 Uh-huh.

David Kessler 15:53 It is constant to play the bigger move.

Lewis Howes 15:57 Mm.

David Kessler 15:57 That's hard to play the bigger move constantly.

Lewis Howes 16:00 Yes.

David Kessler 16:02 But it's, it's also the powerful move.

Lewis Howes 16:05 When someone has experienced grief, and it doesn't have to be a loss of life-

David Kessler 16:10 Right

Lewis Howes 16:10 ... but they've experienced a change that was unwanted-

David Kessler 16:13 Right

Lewis Howes 16:13 ... and then they've ruminated on that, um, change happening or been frustrated on that change for, let's say, a year or a couple of years, they continue to be frustrated about the person, the event, the experience that happened that they did not want to happen. What are they robbing by doing that in their relationship to other people by staying stuck in the grief and not transforming it? What are they stealing within relationship to other people?

David Kessler 16:45 Grief, whatever that change is we didn't want, takes us off one road and puts us on another, and many times we'd rather just stand there quietly on the new road because the unfamiliar road is too hard.

Lewis Howes 17:01 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 17:01 And it does rob us of the possibility of living again, and it's, it becomes that playing small. And, uh, you know, I think about the energy that's spent. You know, people go, "I'm an avoid." I have people in my life, in my family, you know, one person in my life is, "Turn that frown upside down. You know, like, let's not talk about anything negative." I see the energy. Like, I think of our feelings as like if you've got a little balloon and you just need to push it down, the air comes out slowly. But imagine a big beach ball that you're holding underwater constantly. Like, it takes a lot of energy to not feel your feelings. And here's the thing I tell people. Feelings aren't facts. It's just data. It's just information. You have a feeling. Let it pass.

Lewis Howes 18:07 Mm.

David Kessler 18:07 And I think something folks don't understand about feelings is we're the first generation that has the luxury of a feeling on a feeling

Lewis Howes 18:18 What does that mean?

David Kessler 18:19 That means I'm angry. Oh, but I shouldn't be angry. Oh, I'm sad. Oh, but I don't have it like people overseas have it. And we have all these half-felt feelings that we stopped ourself from feeling the anger, the sadness, and we live with this bag of unfelt feelings.

Lewis Howes 18:37 It's like guilt of having the feelings 'cause someone else-

David Kessler 18:40 Guilt of ha-

Lewis Howes 18:40 ... has it worse or...

David Kessler 18:41 Has it worse. And so-

Lewis Howes 18:43 Hmm

David Kessler 18:43 ... if we just allow a feeling, it's gonna pass. Now, the illusion that feelings have, especially around loss and change and those big things, is when you're in a bad feeling, it's like there's a voice that goes, "This feeling's forever."

Lewis Howes 19:03 Right.

David Kessler 19:03 "This loneliness-

Lewis Howes 19:04 Mm-hmm

David Kessler 19:05 ... this pain-

Lewis Howes 19:06 Gosh, I know that

David Kessler 19:06 ... is forever."

Lewis Howes 19:07 Yeah, I felt that especially in like my teens and 20s.

David Kessler 19:09 Oh, my gosh.

Lewis Howes 19:10 I felt like-

David Kessler 19:10 Forever

Lewis Howes 19:11 ... this is never [laughs] going away.

David Kessler 19:13 I felt that, like in my childhood.

Lewis Howes 19:14 Yeah.

David Kessler 19:15 I am damaged forever.

Lewis Howes 19:16 Yeah.

David Kessler 19:17 And to understand no feeling is final.

Lewis Howes 19:22 Mm.

David Kessler 19:23 No feeling is forever. Your feelings are always gonna change.

Lewis Howes 19:27 Mm.

David Kessler 19:28 And sometimes what we need is a little nudge to move again. That's why I love doing grief groups online. We find ourselves in each other's stories.

Lewis Howes 19:41 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 19:42 You know? And I think the other thing is so many people, um, are all about these days, and you know, one of my lines that I tell people that's

David Kessler 19:54 so, you know, connected to me is, "Grief must be witnessed."

Lewis Howes 19:58 What does that mean?

David Kessler 19:59 It means if you're in grief, you need another person to go, "That job meant a lot. I'm so sorry that happened to you."

Lewis Howes 20:08 Why does that need to happen?

David Kessler 20:10 Because we need to have our pain and our love and our attachment witnessed in someone else's eyes. Grief is a severance. It is a separation, and connection heals it. Like everything we know-

Lewis Howes 20:26 Mm

David Kessler 20:26 ... what helps grief and trauma is connection. So part one is I say to people, "Oof, that's horrible. I see the pain. You loved that job. You, you loved your wife. It's so unfair. That's so... It shouldn't have hap- betrayed you?" Well, y- you know, I need to witness folks. We're a little bit getting really good on the witnessing and leaving people there.

Lewis Howes 20:54 What's the next step after the witnessing?

David Kessler 20:56 The next step is for me to witness your capacity. That sucks what you... I mean, I can't believe they fi- that sucks. I know you, though.

Lewis Howes 21:07 Mm.

David Kessler 21:08 I know you can turn this around. You might not see it right now, but I know who you are.

Lewis Howes 21:13 Mm.

David Kessler 21:13 And I witness your capacity. I need to witness your pain and witness your capacity for turning it around.

Lewis Howes 21:21 Mm.

David Kessler 21:22 We need that.

Lewis Howes 21:24 Gosh. The School of Greatness is brought to you in partnership with Airbnb. One of my favorite parts of travel is when a trip gives you a feeling you can't really plan for. You're walking through a new city. In the morning, you're grabbing coffee. You're talking to someone local, and suddenly, the place feels a little bit more familiar. These are the moments that stay with me. They're the things that I crave, not just the photos, but the feeling of being somewhere new and still finding meaningful connection, and that's what I love about Airbnb. When you're away having your own adventure, your home doesn't have to just sit empty either. You can share your space on Airbnb and give another traveler a chance to fall in love with your city the way that you fall in love with the places that you visit. And maybe there's a big game coming up, or maybe people are coming in for a once-in-a-lifetime concert. They need a place that feels comfortable and inviting, and the income from sharing your home can help pay for your own trips. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host. From my personal experience, I held on

Lewis Howes 22:30 to a lot of different grief for many years, but one was around sexual abuse.

David Kessler 22:34 Right.

Lewis Howes 22:35 And I've spoken about it many times on this show, but for 25 years, I didn't tell anyone-

David Kessler 22:39 Right

Lewis Howes 22:40 ... about the experience of being sexually abused when I was a kid. And when I finally did, it was in a group setting, and I didn't know I was going to open up about this, but I felt almost inspired. Like, if, if I don't do this now, I'll probably continue to carry this anger and resentment and pain around this thing that I really didn't know was kind of running my nervous system for so long. And I did it in a group setting with maybe, like, 40 or 50 people in the room, and it was an emotional intelligence workshop that had kinda the context of allowing for that to happen. I didn't go there with that intention of, like, oh, I have grief, but it was more around growth, and I don't think I w- I would've been able to process that without others witnessing that experience, where I felt safe-

David Kessler 23:31 Right

Lewis Howes 23:31 ... in the witnessing, right? And it really unlocked the ability for me to start healing that unresolved grief, which didn't happen overnight. It took a process, and there was ups and downs and a mess in it all.

David Kessler 23:45 In those years before you talked about it-

Lewis Howes 23:47 Uh-huh

David Kessler 23:47 ... did you think about it once?

Lewis Howes 23:49 Almost daily.

David Kessler 23:50 Daily.

Lewis Howes 23:50 For, like, 25 years, almost daily. I mean, m- or I'd stuff it away.

David Kessler 23:54 How much energy, looking back now-

Lewis Howes 23:56 Man

David Kessler 23:57 ... did it take to manage that?

Lewis Howes 23:59 So much.

David Kessler 24:00 So much energy.

Lewis Howes 24:02 So much. Wasted.

David Kessler 24:03 Wasted, and I also believe nothing's wasted.

Lewis Howes 24:05 Sure, sure, sure.

David Kessler 24:06 So but I understand that concept.

Lewis Howes 24:08 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 24:08 And the moment you... My guess is someone before you spoke, and you were like, "Oh, if they can say that- Ooh, I could say that one thing I haven't thought about saying

Lewis Howes 24:24 Yeah. They didn't talk about sexual abuse, but people were opening up

David Kessler 24:26 But it was something

Lewis Howes 24:26 ... and I was like

David Kessler 24:26 Right

Lewis Howes 24:27 ... "Wow, they've been through some stuff"

David Kessler 24:28 Right, right

Lewis Howes 24:28 ... and, "Wow, they've been through some stuff."

David Kessler 24:29 "Oh, this might be safe." We find ourselves in each other's stories-

Lewis Howes 24:34 Yes

David Kessler 24:34 ... and we find our healing in each other's stories.

Lewis Howes 24:37 Uh-huh.

David Kessler 24:37 So one more piece on this. All grief does not have trauma, but all trauma has grief.

Lewis Howes 24:46 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 24:47 So, you know, our 100-year-old grandfather who's had a great life-

Lewis Howes 24:53 Yeah

David Kessler 24:53 ... it's grief.

Lewis Howes 24:54 Yes.

David Kessler 24:54 Pure grief. Sexual abuse that you've had, sexual abuse that I've had, there's trauma and grief.

Lewis Howes 25:01 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 25:02 And we're a society that knows how to talk about the trauma, but we also have to remember, wait a minute, there were years lost. There was an innocence-

Lewis Howes 25:12 Gone

David Kessler 25:12 ... there was an innocent childhood-

Lewis Howes 25:14 Mm

David Kessler 25:14 ... we deserve this lifetime we're never getting, and we have to do a little grief work on that.

Lewis Howes 25:21 Mm-hmm. And when you're an adult, it's hard to reconcile with that.

David Kessler 25:24 Right.

Lewis Howes 25:24 You're like, "Huh, my whole childhood gone"-

David Kessler 25:26 Right

Lewis Howes 25:26 ... in some ways, you know?

David Kessler 25:28 Absolutely, and that is recognizing that is the beginning of the grieving process.

Lewis Howes 25:34 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 25:35 We gotta be willing to face it ourselves.

Lewis Howes 25:40 That was probably the scariest moment of my life was speaking it out loud, speaking in front of people that I, you know, not strangers, but essentially I'd just met for a few days.

David Kessler 25:50 Right.

Lewis Howes 25:51 And in some ways, it might have been... It was easier that it-

David Kessler 25:54 Easier, right

Lewis Howes 25:54 ... it was easier that there-

David Kessler 25:55 Right

Lewis Howes 25:55 ... wasn't, like, friends and family 'cause I, part of it was, oh, if my friends or family knew this about me, no one would love me.

David Kessler 26:02 And, and they have so much energy around you.

Lewis Howes 26:04 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

David Kessler 26:05 You know, it's interesting. When my son died and I had to eventually go back to work, and I had to think about which lecture is gonna be my first back, I wanted something that I felt I could manage.

Lewis Howes 26:24 Right. [laughs]

David Kessler 26:26 My first lecture back was to the LAPD.

Lewis Howes 26:29 Okay.

David Kessler 26:30 I wanted people who were just going to sort of be there.

Lewis Howes 26:34 [laughs]

David Kessler 26:35 But, like, they're not gonna therapize me.

Lewis Howes 26:37 Yeah, right, right.

David Kessler 26:37 They're not gonna go into, like, da, da, da. I just needed to, like, have that first talk and say it, you know? So it's interesting how-

Lewis Howes 26:45 Yeah, wow

David Kessler 26:45 ... sometimes the strangers don't have all the baggage that our-

Lewis Howes 26:49 Right

David Kessler 26:49 ... loved ones do.

Lewis Howes 26:50 Yeah. It was interesting. I finally got the courage to tell friends and family, and thank goodness everyone received it well-

David Kessler 27:01 Right

Lewis Howes 27:01 ... and had the capacity to experience it and, and share that sadness for the experience or the sadness for my, you know, the little boy in me that had this experience. And, and in some ways it felt like it, it made the connection stronger with each one of those individuals, which I was grateful for. But I also have heard people say that they've shared grief or trauma tied with grief to friends, family, loved ones, and it was not received well. So what happens if someone shares their grief with someone, whether it says, "Ah, suck it up," or, "Well, it's tough that it happened, but move on," or whatever they did, you know?

David Kessler 27:38 Right.

Lewis Howes 27:39 Maybe they didn't have the tools or the skills to communicate effectively because they are repressing their grief or trauma or something, or it's just not in their capacity.

David Kessler 27:49 Right.

Lewis Howes 27:49 But what happens when you open up to someone who doesn't receive your grief well and it almost traumatizes you more?

David Kessler 27:56 That's why there's been grief groups since the beginning of time, 'cause we need to find those people who know. The truth is, look, most people in grief could look back and go, "Oh, I didn't, I didn't do this as well as I could have with someone before I knew." Once grief comes to you, you, you understand it. But, you know, if you're having in a horrible divorce and all your happily married friends, they're not gonna get it. Your divorced friends might get it. So one, we have to pick our audience, and the thing is-

Lewis Howes 28:34 Mm

David Kessler 28:34 ... I love that line about no matter how... Like, people always want, "I got... My sister's gotta get it. My spouse has to get it. My... Like, help me have the right words to convince them of the pain I'm in." And I often say that line about no matter how many times you go up and down the aisle of a hardware store, you're never finding milk.

Lewis Howes 28:53 [laughs]

David Kessler 28:54 You're not changing your sister.

Lewis Howes 28:56 Yeah.

David Kessler 28:57 So let's transplant you to a place with people you can talk about it.

Lewis Howes 29:02 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 29:02 It's a grief illiterate world.

Lewis Howes 29:04 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 29:05 It's a grief illiterate world.

Lewis Howes 29:06 No one knows until you've gone through it and you say-

David Kessler 29:07 Until you've gone through it

Lewis Howes 29:08 ... "I'll, I'm gonna learn about it." And a lot of people have gone through it and don't learn about it.

David Kessler 29:12 Right.

Lewis Howes 29:12 They stuff it.

David Kessler 29:13 Or get stuck in it.

Lewis Howes 29:14 They get stuck in it.

David Kessler 29:15 Right.

Lewis Howes 29:15 They don't wanna do the work to heal or transform it because in some ways it's scary, it's hard, it's unfamiliar. There's some sense of control and feeling angry or resentment or whatever it is.

David Kessler 29:27 And it's feelings that are bigger than us-

Lewis Howes 29:29 Yeah

David Kessler 29:29 ... and feel like they will take us out of control.

Lewis Howes 29:32 Yeah.

David Kessler 29:32 Or we're gonna start crying. You know, and I tell people who say to me, "If I start crying, I'll never stop," I'll go-

Lewis Howes 29:39 Oh

David Kessler 29:39 ... "I've been with thousands of people. Everyone stops crying."

Lewis Howes 29:42 You get tired at some point.

David Kessler 29:43 Right.

Lewis Howes 29:43 [laughs]

David Kessler 29:43 Or, you know, man who goes, "I can't cry. It's not..." And I'm like, "Really? I've been... I worked at 9/11. I was there with firemen who were digging for their brothers crying. You, you want me to tell them they're not being manly?"

Lewis Howes 29:57 Mm.

David Kessler 29:58 Like, dude, we gotta redefine manhood here.

Lewis Howes 30:01 When someone says they don't have the ability to cry, what are they really saying?

David Kessler 30:05 I'm judging my feelings. People will say to me, "I can't cry," and I go, "You can't cry or you're judging yourself for not crying?" The thing is, if we're judging ourselves about we should be crying, and this happens all the time, I'll say, "You're judging your feelings," and people go, "No, I'm not." And I'll go, "Well, but you're telling me you should be crying, which means you're not okay feeling what you're feeling now. There's a should here, which means you got a judgment. Judgment demands punishment. You're gonna punish yourself or others, and you're clearly not gonna cry." We have to get to a point where we go, "You know what? I'm going to accept my feelings. If I cry, I cry. If I don't, I don't. Let me just accept." It's a weird paradox that to feel your feelings you have to accept them.

Lewis Howes 31:01 Mm.

David Kessler 31:01 And then you begin to move through them.

Lewis Howes 31:03 Mm-hmm. If someone says, "I haven't cried in years," what is it that they're blocking?

David Kessler 31:10 I would say to them, um, I think that wisdom is in you, and I think you might wanna put some effort into getting curious about it versus judgmental.

Lewis Howes 31:22 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 31:23 What would it look like if you weren't block... What, what would your life look like if it wasn't being blocked? What, what are the obstacles that's keeping you that way? And a lot of us get this learned helplessness that we're like, "There's no way out." And that's when we need someone to go, "Yes, there is. Gi- give me your hand."

Lewis Howes 31:42 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 31:42 "Yes, there is. We're gonna look. I can't take you all the way, but I can open the door and show you some stuff."

Lewis Howes 31:49 Because most people don't have the tools to navigate grief well, it seems like they haven't learned it at an early stage or they weren't taught it or they didn't learn how to discover it.

David Kessler 32:00 Right.

Lewis Howes 32:00 You know, as a, as a, a parent to twin girls now-

David Kessler 32:03 Right

Lewis Howes 32:03 ... how could I demonstrate how to move through grief when they're, you know, five years old and someone doesn't wanna play with them or something, and they feel like they had a friend that doesn't wanna hang out with them or whatever it is. How can I teach it early with something small so that they understand how to navigate it through life's challenges when they're older?

David Kessler 32:26 Absolutely. Think of what we said around feelings. So just treat it as their feelings. What mistakes do we do? We, you know, "I can't believe they don't wanna play with me," and your daughter starts crying, and your other daughter's fine. What do we say? "You should be more like her."

Lewis Howes 32:42 Mm.

David Kessler 32:42 Shutting down the feelings.

Lewis Howes 32:44 Wow.

David Kessler 32:45 Or, "That friend's not worth it. Don't have that feeling."

Lewis Howes 32:48 [laughs]

David Kessler 32:48 Or, "That's a silly thing to..." Shaming them.

Lewis Howes 32:52 Mm.

David Kessler 32:53 Instead, going back to the witnessing, "Wow, it is really sad when someone doesn't wanna play with us." Then going to the capacity, "You know, it's sad, and I bet we could still have some fun this afternoon."

Lewis Howes 33:07 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 33:08 "Knowing you and me, we could have some fun." But don't shut those feelings down. Just allow them.

Lewis Howes 33:15 So how do people learn to teach how to communicate your feelings when a lot of people feel like feelings are bad-

David Kessler 33:23 Right

Lewis Howes 33:23 ... or they don't wanna deal with the feelings of another person, or it's hard for them to watch someone cry or scream or whatever it might be. How do we teach that, specifically in men, who I think have never been taught how to navigate feelings?

David Kessler 33:36 Yeah. Listen, I got into this work because my mother died when I was young. There was a horrible shooting, and the only advice I got was in the hallway, the stairwell of the hospital. Someone said to me, "Be strong."

Lewis Howes 33:49 That was it.

David Kessler 33:50 That was it, which is no feelings, take care of everyone.

Lewis Howes 33:54 Suck it up. Yeah.

David Kessler 33:55 Suck it up. Just another [laughs] version of suck it up. And the problem is, like, let's fast-forward to what it's like being with people who are dying. What do we do when we suck it up? If the half, the other half is suck it up, be productive, go do something. Then we get to our deathbed and go, "Oh, I did."

Lewis Howes 34:19 I performed.

David Kessler 34:20 "I did. I performed, but I di- I missed the love. I missed the presence." I mean, the thing is, you know, you and I could have a completely inauthentic discussion. Like earlier, we didn't have an inauthentic discussion. We had an authentic discussion, and we talked about real things. That didn't separate us. I hope it made us feel more comfortable.

Lewis Howes 34:48 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 34:49 And that's an illusion that those feelings are gonna ruin something. Vulnerability, you know, Brené Brown, who's, like, just she's been amazing with this, just you realize vulnerability is a superpower. It's a superpower.

Lewis Howes 35:07 Yeah. You worked with a lot of different individuals over many years. From your clinical perspective, who has a harder time truly expressing their feelings, men or women?

David Kessler 35:24 Men.

David Kessler 35:26 And a lot of times when I work with men, uh, men who aren't comfortable don't know how to do this. They don't know how to do face-to-face. And a lot of times our spouses and people will, like, sit men down and go, "La-da-da-da," which is, like, the worst thing. When I'm working with men and they're n- don't traffic well in feelings, I'm like, "Let's take a walk."

Lewis Howes 35:50 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 35:50 Men do better sometimes shoulder-to-shoulder talking.

Lewis Howes 35:53 Yeah.

David Kessler 35:54 Not-

Lewis Howes 35:55 Staring into the souls

David Kessler 35:55 ... how do you feel. Right.

Lewis Howes 35:57 Yeah, yeah.

David Kessler 35:57 How do you feel about it, you know?

Lewis Howes 36:00 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 36:00 It's like, "No, I don't wanna hear what you think. I wanna know what you feel." Well, if you can't go there, I'll hear what you think. Your thinking's gonna reveal your feelings.

Lewis Howes 36:08 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 36:09 It's fine.

Lewis Howes 36:10 Yeah.

David Kessler 36:10 I gotta meet people where they are.

Lewis Howes 36:12 Yeah.

David Kessler 36:12 I mean, we all... You know, one of the things that I say to people so much, friends, colleagues, whenever we're in disagreements with the world and the people around us, I'm like, "You're in Um, confrontation, argument, war with who you think they should be

Lewis Howes 36:32 Mm-hmm

David Kessler 36:33 If you take all these tools and realize that's what you're projecting, just see them, meet them for who they are

Lewis Howes 36:43 What if they're not happy with who they are?

David Kessler 36:45 Then we've got some power to do something. Because I'll tell you, we have the power to stay, we have the power to go, we don't have the power to change other people

Lewis Howes 36:56 Mm-hmm

David Kessler 36:57 I've tried. I've spent a life trying

Lewis Howes 37:00 Really?

David Kessler 37:00 They don't change, and we get frustrated. Doesn't mean we can't encourage. There's little things we can do. I'm gonna get further with people if I say, "I really like what you did," and name the things you do well-

Lewis Howes 37:17 Mm

David Kessler 37:17 ... versus naming the things you don't do well

Lewis Howes 37:20 Yep

David Kessler 37:21 That's gonna help the other person grow

Lewis Howes 37:23 Mm.

David Kessler 37:24 But I've never nagged anyone into change-

Lewis Howes 37:27 Right. That doesn't work

David Kessler 37:28 ... or judged them into change

Lewis Howes 37:29 That's not gonna work

David Kessler 37:30 Not working. Not working

Lewis Howes 37:31 They're not gonna be happy

David Kessler 37:32 Gotta meet them where they are

Lewis Howes 37:34 You talk about this idea of unintended

Lewis Howes 37:36 grief, grief that people carry around without realizing it

David Kessler 37:39 Yeah

Lewis Howes 37:39 Can you explain how that shows up in someone's daily life and how it impacts their relationships or their ability to succeed?

David Kessler 37:46 We could say look at really famous people, look at successful people, look at people in your family who have had a horrible acting out situation. Any celebrity sports figure, like they just act something, "Oh, I don't understand, with all their money, how'd they do that?" Unattended grief and feelings. Yes, they blew up in that moment 'cause they couldn't manage the bigness of what was going on, instead of learning how to manage it in all these small moments. We see it all the time.

Lewis Howes 38:26 Mm-hmm

David Kessler 38:26 People self-sabotage in the big ways 'cause they don't learn how to just deal with the disappointments, the changes, the griefs of everyday life. Like the question you asked about your daughters is there's people who we've all seen them implode who never asked that question-

Lewis Howes 38:47 Mm

David Kessler 38:47 ... and no one asked that question about them

Lewis Howes 38:50 Mm-hmm

David Kessler 38:51 They wor- their feelings weren't attended to

Lewis Howes 38:54 Right

David Kessler 38:55 When people say to me like, "I, why should I feel these feel- " Well, look at what happens to the people who don't. We, you turn on the TV, they'll, they're about to blow

Lewis Howes 39:05 Mm

David Kessler 39:05 That's what happens

Lewis Howes 39:06 Mm

David Kessler 39:06 And it's devastating that you see really good people damage their careers and their lives or use substances or all the other things we do 'cause we don't know how to manage our feelings

Lewis Howes 39:20 How does someone know if they have unattended grief?

David Kessler 39:23 Your actions become automatic. "I don't know why I reacted that way. I don't know why I'm so sad. I don't know why I'm so angry." Like people don't understand-

Lewis Howes 39:35 Mm-hmm

David Kessler 39:35 ... anger is often grief. You know, I talk about anger is pain's bodyguard. The anger shows up, but it's about the pain it's protecting

Lewis Howes 39:46 Mm

David Kessler 39:47 And so a lot of time, that pain is unattended grief

Lewis Howes 39:52 That was the trigger for me when I, it got me to a place to, to go to this workshop and, and start opening up is 'cause I felt like for a few years I was getting so easily triggered by the littlest things that would make me angry, and it would just get bigger and bigger kind of like reactions that were automatic. Like I wasn't even able to stop myself from reacting until afterwards I was like, "What am I doing?" [laughs] You know, it was just like-

David Kessler 40:18 Right

Lewis Howes 40:19 ... "Who am I? Why am I reacting this way?" And my best friend, Matt, who's actually here, we [laughs] had got in a basketball fight in West Hollywood on the mean streets of West Hollywood-

David Kessler 40:29 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 40:29 ... you know, next to Beverly- next to Beverly Hills. And, um, I was getting in multiple, like, altercations on the basketball court, probably weekly for like months, until I got in an actual fist fight. And the guy ended up being okay, uh, after all of it or whatever, but it was a big wake-up call where my friend Matt was like, "I don't wanna hang out with you anymore. You keep reacting in this way."

David Kessler 40:53 Right

Lewis Howes 40:54 And he was at a lot of these games with me. There was nothing on the line. There was no big stakes. These were just friendly pickup games, but I was getting easily triggered by the littlest things. And that's when I was like, "Oh, if my best friend is calling me out on this and doesn't wanna hang out with me-"

David Kessler 41:10 Yeah

Lewis Howes 41:10 ... like it's not these people, it's me.

David Kessler 41:13 Right

Lewis Howes 41:13 You know, I'm the one who needs to work on this, not trying to control everyone else in my life to be a certain way to make me happy

David Kessler 41:21 Right

Lewis Howes 41:22 And that was a wake-up call that got me down this whole path of learning and navigating and, and developing myself, and I think it's an o- it's gonna be an ongoing journey for the rest of my life. That was unintended grief.

David Kessler 41:36 Yeah

Lewis Howes 41:36 Me automatically getting angry really over nothing

David Kessler 41:39 Yeah. I would love to talk about triggers for a

David Kessler 41:42 moment

Lewis Howes 41:42 Let's do it

David Kessler 41:43 And, uh, before we go there, I just wanna say when we're talking about the six stage in finding meaning, I'm just in awe of that story that you have taken this worse event, probably one of the worst of your life, and you are talking about it and helping millions of people-

Lewis Howes 42:08 Mm

David Kessler 42:08 ... who you're not even gonna know how much you help them. That's you making meaning

Lewis Howes 42:13 Mm

David Kessler 42:14 That's you making meaning

Lewis Howes 42:16 Yeah

David Kessler 42:16 I mean, it's remarkable

Lewis Howes 42:18 Thank you. Appreciate it

David Kessler 42:19 Just take that in

Lewis Howes 42:20 I appreciate it, and it's, you know... I remember I launched this show, School of Greatness, 13 and a half years ago, and I went through this kind of workshop before... Was it right before I l- No, it was after I launched the podcast, maybe six months in And it's funny because, you know, I had a small following back then, but after I launched this, or after I did the workshop and started releasing this kind of grief, I guess, I mean, if you call it releasing it or-

David Kessler 42:47 Right

Lewis Howes 42:48 ... integrating it or whatever, transforming-

David Kessler 42:49 It dissipates, right

Lewis Howes 42:50 ... yeah. I would start getting these emails from people saying, "I really liked your show before, but, like, something's different about how you respond and how you interact and the, and the questions you ask." And people were noticing me transforming by just my energy on the show. And I waited maybe six months after this workshop and me starting this process, and after kind of talking to my friends and family about what, what I went through, sexual abuse, and I realized, oh, okay, I've opened up to a group of strangers, I've opened them up to my friends and family, but I'm still afraid of kind of my audience or the, or others knowing this about me.

David Kessler 43:31 Right.

Lewis Howes 43:31 And I realized that like, oh, it still has control over me.

David Kessler 43:34 Right.

Lewis Howes 43:35 And I'm not saying everyone should open up publicly about what they've been through.

David Kessler 43:38 Right.

Lewis Howes 43:38 I don't think that's necessary, but I felt like I was living a lie to my community, that I was communicating about so many things, but I wasn't willing to open up about this. And for me, I felt like it wasn't maybe the final stage, but it was like a big stage of me on kind of learning how to heal, because I was so afraid of the opinions of others.

David Kessler 43:58 Right.

Lewis Howes 43:58 I was so afraid of-

David Kessler 43:59 Right

Lewis Howes 43:59 ... what are people gonna think about me? Are they gonna stop listening to me? Are they gonna not gonna like me? Are they gonna judge me? Whatever it was, I was living in fear.

David Kessler 44:05 Right.

Lewis Howes 44:07 And that I, I opened up about it publicly on my show, and I remember I recorded it and I waited months to post it. I was so afraid. But I was like, man, this fear is essentially holding me back. It, it's kind of controlling my, my life. And so I, I posted it, and it's still, 13 years later, the most downloaded episode I've ever done.

David Kessler 44:31 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 44:31 A whole book came from that years later called The Mask of Masculinity because I had never seen a man open up about sexual abuse publicly. I'm sure it was out there, but I'd never witnessed like a-

David Kessler 44:44 Right

Lewis Howes 44:44 ... a big athlete talking about this-

David Kessler 44:46 Right, right, right

Lewis Howes 44:46 ... or it being a thing.

David Kessler 44:48 Right.

Lewis Howes 44:48 And then later, I think Oprah did a, a whole segment where all these men-

David Kessler 44:52 Right, right

Lewis Howes 44:52 ... talked about sexual abuse. But I hadn't seen this, and so I was like, I felt like I was the only one had been through this, 'cause I never talked about it.

David Kessler 44:59 Right.

Lewis Howes 44:59 I never heard anyone else talk about it. So it was the most terrifying thing, even though I learned that one in six men have been sexually abused, one in four women have been sexually abused, and, uh, but for men, there's usually nowhere to talk about it. You know, it's horrible no matter who it happens to, but most men never open up about it, never talk about it, never have a safe space or feel like they're able to. And so for me, it was a very healing experience knowing that others then came to me as a safe space to share their story.

David Kessler 45:32 Right.

Lewis Howes 45:33 And I think that's where the meaning, I think you were talking about, the meaning came from for me, was like, oh, me sharing it, and now I get messages so frequently where people say, "You know, I went through a similar thing that you went through in childhood." And I already know what they're meaning. They might be afraid to say it-

David Kessler 45:50 Right, right

Lewis Howes 45:51 ... but they feel comfortable saying to me-

David Kessler 45:54 Right

Lewis Howes 45:54 ... "I've been through some similar stuff as you. I see myself in you from what you've been through as a kid." And I already know that this man has probably never spoken about this.

David Kessler 46:02 Right.

Lewis Howes 46:02 And to be a, a sacred space for them in that moment so they can start, hopefully, the process of healing.

David Kessler 46:09 And that's such a hallmark of grief and shame and trauma. You know, even I remember that in my childhood. I was sure I was the only one that had a parent die. Like-

Lewis Howes 46:21 Really? Wow

David Kessler 46:22 ... like, well, I had a formula. My, my friends' parents were alive.

Lewis Howes 46:27 Yeah.

David Kessler 46:27 I mean, I, you know, and it's that feeling of it's only me. And I often get asked what my definition of healing is, and to me, healing is when the event no longer controls you.

Lewis Howes 46:42 Yes.

David Kessler 46:42 That's exactly what you did. You were no longer gonna be controlled by that event.

Lewis Howes 46:48 Mm-hmm. And I realized I still was, 'cause I was afraid to talk about it to certain people.

David Kessler 46:54 Which is it controlling you.

Lewis Howes 46:56 Exactly. So I was like-

David Kessler 46:57 Right

Lewis Howes 46:57 ... okay, I need to release this fully. I need to have so much courage-

David Kessler 47:00 Right

Lewis Howes 47:01 ... and talk about this no matter what the consequences might be.

David Kessler 47:04 Right.

Lewis Howes 47:05 Like, if everyone unfollows me, at least I'm free.

David Kessler 47:07 Right.

Lewis Howes 47:08 'Cause I didn't feel free.

David Kessler 47:09 And listen, I mean, I remember seeing you years ago and seeing how you've changed, and, you know, the thing is, you and I casually sitting here discussing sexual abuse that we both had, I promise you, 10, 15, I couldn't imagine-

Lewis Howes 47:24 Never

David Kessler 47:24 ... like, we're just gonna, that's just gonna be a casual conversation.

Lewis Howes 47:27 Just brought up [laughs]

David Kessler 47:28 But it doesn't control us.

Lewis Howes 47:30 No, it doesn't.

David Kessler 47:31 It doesn't.

Lewis Howes 47:32 Yeah.

David Kessler 47:32 I wanna get to triggers for a moment.

Lewis Howes 47:34 Yes.

David Kessler 47:34 So triggers-

Lewis Howes 47:35 What... Yep

David Kessler 47:35 ... you know, we live in a world now that it's all about trigger warnings.

Lewis Howes 47:40 Mm.

David Kessler 47:41 And it is a version of let me control the outside. My loved one died, I can't go by that part of town. She divorced me, I can't be with those fr- whatever it is, we have those triggers, and the game now is sort of trigger warning, you know, please don't wear white shoes. That freaks me out. It triggers me. And the problem is I'm under the illusion that the problem is out here, and I'm trying to control my environment. You thought you were gonna beat those guys up enough to control... You know, you're f- trying to fix it all on the outside. And the problem around that is when people come to me and say, "I don't know where to start with grief and trauma," I go, "What triggers you?" Your triggers are a map to your pain-

Lewis Howes 48:33 Mm

David Kessler 48:34 ... and they are a map to your healing.

Lewis Howes 48:36 Your freedom.

David Kessler 48:37 We come with a map Each of us has a map right now. I don't know what to work on. You got a map. You got a map. And for us to realize if I start going, "All right. No one wear white, you know, tennis shoes," what's gonna happen is I'm gonna be in emotional avoidance, and I'm teaching emotional estrangement. I'm going to begin to live in a world where nothing can upset me. And going back to what we talked about, I wanna help people build capacity. Yeah, those, those white shoes are fine. The... It's, it's good. Someone in white shoes years ago was a jerk, but I'm in the moment now, and I can see you're not.

Lewis Howes 49:25 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 49:26 So to understand, you know, sometimes when I was doing, like, events and conferences, someone would run out of the room, and they'll go, "It's too painful in that room." And I'd go, "I get that. Take care of yourself. Leave if you need to. Don't have the illusion you're leaving the pain in the room."

Lewis Howes 49:46 No.

David Kessler 49:46 "It's running out with you."

Lewis Howes 49:49 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 49:50 So the dance is there whenever you're ready.

Lewis Howes 49:53 Until you face the trigger, y- you're always gonna be, I guess, a prisoner of that trigger.

David Kessler 49:58 Of that trigger. Exactly.

Lewis Howes 49:58 It's going to chase after you or be with you, no matter what your addiction you're chasing or, or connected to or how much sex you have or-

David Kessler 50:06 Right

Lewis Howes 50:06 ... how much sugar you eat or how much whatever drug of choice, how hard you work.

David Kessler 50:12 Right.

Lewis Howes 50:12 You know, being a workaholic or whatever it is, that trigger and pain and trauma or whatever it is, the association around that is gonna continue to follow you-

David Kessler 50:20 Right

Lewis Howes 50:20 ... until you turn around and face it.

David Kessler 50:22 Well, here's my thought, whether we're talking about triggers or feelings-

Lewis Howes 50:25 Uh-huh

David Kessler 50:26 ... or grief, trauma. What we run from pursues us, and what we face transforms us.

Lewis Howes 50:34 Mm.

David Kessler 50:35 You and I have been transformed by our pain.

Lewis Howes 50:38 Yes.

David Kessler 50:39 And we also spent years running from it.

Lewis Howes 50:41 Oh, man. Years.

David Kessler 50:42 We, we, we know both roads.

Lewis Howes 50:44 [laughs] Years, man, and it was, uh... It's funny because I thought the more I accomplished,

Lewis Howes 50:51 the better I would feel. But it was almost like the more I accomplished externally, the worse I felt because it didn't take the pain away.

David Kessler 50:59 Success is a great deodorant.

Lewis Howes 51:01 Yeah.

David Kessler 51:02 Kinda covers it all up, you know?

Lewis Howes 51:04 Yeah. But it's even stinkier when [laughs] you're inside.

David Kessler 51:06 Yeah, yeah. And we know we smell.

Lewis Howes 51:09 Yeah.

David Kessler 51:09 That's the problem.

Lewis Howes 51:10 And it's like the shame grows.

David Kessler 51:11 Right, the shame grows.

Lewis Howes 51:11 Because you're like, "Oh, I still don't feel like I'm good enough. I still-

David Kessler 51:15 Right

Lewis Howes 51:15 ... don't feel like I matter or I'm worthy even though I'm accomplishing or I have whatever marker to say that I'm accomplished something, and I still-

David Kessler 51:26 Yeah

Lewis Howes 51:26 ... don't feel lovable or I still don't feel enough." It's like what is that in us when we chase something so big, we accomplish it, and we still don't feel enough? What is that?

David Kessler 51:38 Because we're trying to outrun our past, our feelings, and we think, oh, that award, that game, that success, that amount of money in the bank, whatever it is, and, and it can even be, you know, all the things we talk about, drugs, sex, da, da, da. It can be success. It can be service. It can be, you know... There's plenty of people I know that are, like, these amazing volunteers who couldn't take care of themselves if they tried.

Lewis Howes 52:09 Uh-huh.

David Kessler 52:10 You know? And the reality is to allow ourselves to say it to one other person, and then all of a sudden we just need someone to go, "Oh, you're still okay."

Lewis Howes 52:25 Mm.

David Kessler 52:25 "You're not the first, and unfortunately you're not gonna be the last."

Lewis Howes 52:29 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 52:30 And we all have struggles. Yours looks different than mine, but we assume the people we see on social media or TV or in sports, they don't have them, and then we see something go wrong, and we're like, "What? How can that be?"

Lewis Howes 52:47 Yeah. They have all the money and success.

David Kessler 52:48 They... Right, right.

Lewis Howes 52:49 Yeah.

David Kessler 52:49 And I'll tell you, there's a, a line that Freud said. Freud was once asked would he rather work with someone who's poor or someone who's rich, and he said, "Always rich."

Lewis Howes 53:01 Why?

David Kessler 53:01 And they said, "Why?" And he said, "Because the rich person knows that happiness is no longer in the money."

Lewis Howes 53:08 Mm. The poor person-

David Kessler 53:09 I have to convince the poor person

Lewis Howes 53:11 ... thinks that when I make money-

David Kessler 53:12 Thinks it's-

Lewis Howes 53:12 ... I'm gonna be happy

David Kessler 53:13 ... uh, it's going to be the key to everything. It's going to be the key to that hole, the emptiness, all of that inside of us.

Lewis Howes 53:20 I know that feeling too.

David Kessler 53:21 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 53:21 Once I started making money, it didn't take the pain away.

David Kessler 53:25 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 53:25 It, it didn't make me feel like I, I healed the, the hurt boy in me or-

David Kessler 53:29 Right

Lewis Howes 53:29 ... I was less-

David Kessler 53:30 Right

Lewis Howes 53:30 ... angry or frustrated or resentful.

David Kessler 53:32 But you couldn't have told that to your poor, unsuccessful-

Lewis Howes 53:35 No, no, no, no

David Kessler 53:35 ... self growing up, you know?

Lewis Howes 53:37 No. I was like, "This is gonna solve my problems."

David Kessler 53:38 Solve it, right.

Lewis Howes 53:40 It doesn't solve it. It almost amplifies your problems.

David Kessler 53:42 It does. The stakes become higher.

Lewis Howes 53:44 I'll speak from personal experience. When I didn't feel like I was in a healthy space internally and I had money, I, I s- I was all heightened, like, anxiety around me, and I didn't wanna lose it, and I felt like people were trying to take it or, or use me in some way. It was like, "Oh, now that they know that I've made some money, are they really my friend?" It's all these other-

David Kessler 54:03 Right

Lewis Howes 54:03 ... interpretations around the triggers that I still had.

David Kessler 54:06 Right. 'Cause think about here we have unlovableness, unfairness, no one will love me, I'm not worthy, da, da, da. If I just get money, that's gonna help, and we get money, and then we go, "They're still here."

Lewis Howes 54:22 Yeah.

David Kessler 54:22 "They're all still here." The success, the money, the whatever didn't do it, and that's when you need someone to work with you-

Lewis Howes 54:32 Mm

David Kessler 54:32 ... who's gonna go, "All right. Since you've done all this, could we just talk about those?"

Lewis Howes 54:38 Gosh. Of all the people you've worked with in grief groups, uh, from high-profile individuals to people who are completely unknown going through their own experiences, what is the number one thing that most people struggle with within themselves, that they believe they're not what?

David Kessler 55:00 Worthy, whole. They're not worthy and they're not whole.

Lewis Howes 55:04 Why are so many... Why do so many people believe they're not worthy and they don't feel like they're whole?

David Kessler 55:08 'Cause I think we're raised to do more, to be more, to become someone, forgetting you are someone. Like, your worth is not by the doing. Your worth is just because you're here on the planet. Money's not bad or good.

Lewis Howes 55:27 Uh-huh.

David Kessler 55:27 It's kind of neutral.

Lewis Howes 55:28 Yeah.

David Kessler 55:28 Success isn't bad or good. It's neutral.

Lewis Howes 55:30 How does someone separate, you know, being in a relationship and needing to provide for that relationship and that family versus not performing well or not getting the r- the results they wanted, how do you, how do you not interpret, "Oh, I'm not good at this yet, but I'm still a worthy person"?

David Kessler 55:53 Right. It's-

Lewis Howes 55:53 How do you, how do you navigate both those worlds? Like, I'm not performing, I'm failing, I'm struggling here, but I'm still whole. How do you know that?

David Kessler 56:01 Hopefully we have people in our life that love us no matter what. I know a million people that I've... A million's exaggeration, but a lot of people over the years who, like, literally are out doing with someone at home going, "I wish you were home more."

Lewis Howes 56:20 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 56:21 And they're like, "Well, when I get successful, I'll be home more." And I always say, "If you're not home more now, when you get success, you're, you're, you're gonna be gone even more."

Lewis Howes 56:30 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 56:31 Then it's just gonna be another country you're going to, instead of across town. It's about realizing this is what matters. Our loved ones matter.

Lewis Howes 56:41 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 56:42 You know? To really understand this is all we got. It's just a Monopoly game.

Lewis Howes 56:50 Mm.

David Kessler 56:50 It's a Monopoly game. Play well. I'll talk strategy with you around playing well, but let's not believe we're the game.

Lewis Howes 56:59 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 56:59 We're just playing the game. We're not the voices in our head. We're the one listening to them, and sometimes we might not want to listen to them so well.

Lewis Howes 57:08 Mm-hmm. If someone's in a relationship with a... A- and they've been married for a while, and they're, you know, they both got married for good intentions, but 5, 10, 20 years down the road they start waking up to some of this information, and they start going through a self-discovery, start processing grief, start healing some. But they realize that their partner is stuck in the past, stuck in, um, unattended grief, and they're triggered constantly, they're reactive a lot, they're not willing to speak or open up about their past. They don't wanna go there to the hurt places. They have these unresolved feelings that they stuff, and then anger comes out at different times or control comes out. What can that person do w- to not... Obviously, they can't fix their partner. They can't change their partner, but how can they meet their partner in a place where they can still have a beautiful relationship even if that partner doesn't want to change or address the unresolved grief?

David Kessler 58:14 Invitations and boundaries.

Lewis Howes 58:16 Mm. What if they don't like boundaries?

David Kessler 58:18 Well, well, if they don't like boundaries, you're not doing boundaries for you, for them. You're doing boundaries for yourself.

Lewis Howes 58:25 Yeah.

David Kessler 58:26 The people who cross boundaries are ourselves.

Lewis Howes 58:29 Mm.

David Kessler 58:29 You can't cross my boundaries. I can only break my boundaries.

Lewis Howes 58:33 By allowing it to happen, yeah.

David Kessler 58:34 Yeah, by allowing it. "Don't go over there. I told you, da, da, da. I'm gonna lecture you." No. "Hey, dude. If you wanna be in my presence, we don't do that."

Lewis Howes 58:43 Yeah.

David Kessler 58:44 So there has to be a gentle, "You know, I'm learning, I'm growing, I'm changing," to your wife, to your husband. Uh, "I'd love you to come do some of these things with me. Could we go to therapy?" Lots and lots of invitations. At a certain point, we have to go, "They're different from me-"

Lewis Howes 59:04 Mm-hmm

David Kessler 59:05 ... and is that still workable?" You know, in the old days, I think in relationships we had this belief that we should be exactly the same. We both need to love this. We both have to da, da, da. We can't have different interests or that spells trouble. Well, you know what? Maybe you do like those things and I'm gonna, like, love that you're you, and I'm gonna do these things, and we can have our together things, and we can have some separate interests, and that's okay.

Lewis Howes 59:36 Yeah.

David Kessler 59:36 And there's a time some people could outgrow a relationship. I just wanna make sure they've really-

Lewis Howes 59:44 Gone all in, yeah

David Kessler 59:44 ... done the invitations and done the work and things like that.

Lewis Howes 59:47 Mm-hmm. Yeah. You wrote that you can only avoid grief by avoiding love.

Lewis Howes 59:52 What do you mean by that?

David Kessler 59:54 And avoiding life. And avoiding life. You know, I, I, I, I'll tell you, some people, you know, I've heard, "Your son dying must have been the worst tragedy." It's actually not.

Lewis Howes 1:00:10 Really?

David Kessler 1:00:12 The worst tragedy would have been to have come to this world and not met him.

Lewis Howes 1:00:17 Mm. My gosh. Yeah.

David Kessler 1:00:20 That's the worst.

Lewis Howes 1:00:21 Wow.

David Kessler 1:00:23 I got to know him.

Lewis Howes 1:00:24 Mm.

David Kessler 1:00:25 And I get to know all these people in my life now. And, you know, it's one of the things that I think... So I ran into a neighbor who I hadn't seen, actually was my boss 30 years ago, and she said to me, "Oh my gosh, you live so close. I'd be friends, but it would be too depressing to be friends with you."

Lewis Howes 1:00:44 Why? [laughs]

David Kessler 1:00:44 And I said, "You'd be surprised. My life isn't that depressing." I'm actually a really fun-loving person, and I have a great time in life. And I think-

Lewis Howes 1:00:58 Just 'cause she says you, you speak about grief all the time or something like that

David Kessler 1:01:00 Yeah, yeah. She's like, okay, that's, you know, I must want to sit around going, "Seen any good deaths lately?" I don't know what she imagines.

Lewis Howes 1:01:06 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David Kessler 1:01:06 Something crazy. But it's that idea that I no longer have that, those needs, that pick me, that let's do the let's find our w- Like, the life is okay, and do you want to walk together? Let's walk for a while. Oh, you want to go... All right, I'm gonna go this. I mean, it's just becomes-

Lewis Howes 1:01:28 Mm-hmm

David Kessler 1:01:28 ... this adventure we're on.

Lewis Howes 1:01:30 Yes.

David Kessler 1:01:30 And one of the things that I've learned is because I see so much death, it doesn't make me go, "What's the point?" Instead, it makes me go, "Let me take this in." You know, like, in the worst scenario, today could be my last day.

Lewis Howes 1:01:51 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 1:01:51 I mean, I'm with people all the time that were doing something and then they died. If today's my last day, I have a couple of choices. If I haven't been current, I can dart out of here and start saying, "I apologize, I'm sorry," and make amends and blah, blah, blah. But if I've been current, I can go, "Wow, if today was my last day, this is my last podcast."

Lewis Howes 1:02:17 Mm.

David Kessler 1:02:18 Wow, let me go deeper. Let me not waste this moment. Let me not waste their time. Let me truly show up for life. And then I'll die today, and I get to have a great day. 'Cause someone's gonna die, someone's gonna divorce, a breakup's gonna happen. I mean, sh- gonna happen, and let me be present for the moments when it does-

Lewis Howes 1:02:43 Mm

David Kessler 1:02:43 ... and the moments when it doesn't.

Lewis Howes 1:02:45 Yeah.

David Kessler 1:02:45 How many of us have ruined good moments when nothing bad was happening-

Lewis Howes 1:02:50 Mm-hmm

David Kessler 1:02:51 ... because of all the moments we didn't attend to?

Lewis Howes 1:02:53 Right. How does someone know the difference of them going through grief or being depressed?

David Kessler 1:03:00 You know, it's interesting. I always say that is really a question for a psychiatrist, and I encourage people to see a psychiatrist who knows grief.

Lewis Howes 1:03:11 Mm.

David Kessler 1:03:11 Like, we even have a grief educator certificate program, and I'm so proud when psychiatrists come through, because you can become a psychiatrist, a therapist, a coach without one hour of grief education.

Lewis Howes 1:03:26 Mm.

David Kessler 1:03:27 Crazy. And so it's important to know there's different markers. You know, when you're clinically depressed, that's one state that is very different from the sadness of grief. But we also live in a world that we don't use the word sad anymore. Oh, my gosh, Lewis, we were so depressed at lunch yesterday, but you're not now?

Lewis Howes 1:03:54 Mm.

David Kessler 1:03:55 Did you go through a drive-through depression center? What did you do?

Lewis Howes 1:03:58 Yeah.

David Kessler 1:03:59 I mean, we don't go... And think about it this way. If someone said, "I'm so depressed, my sister died," go see a doctor. You need to get t- something done about that. But if I said, "I'm so sad my sister died," of course you are. That's your sister. Notice there's less to fix when we allow our feelings.

Lewis Howes 1:04:19 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 1:04:20 But depression's very serious. See a psychiatrist. A good psychiatrist can tell you grief versus clinical depression.

Lewis Howes 1:04:29 Yeah. For anyone that feels afraid of the future, whether it be their relationship, their health, the economy, wars, any number of things that could cause uncertainty or fear in someone, how can they use this information that you have in your work, in your books to navigate the uncertainties of the world for the future? The, the uncertainties of loss-

David Kessler 1:04:54 Right

Lewis Howes 1:04:54 ... of anything.

David Kessler 1:04:56 So the biggest thing that I think about is anxiety, fear of the future, really challenging, and you're in the future. Now, why are we in the future? 'Cause something bad has happened in our past. We're not fearful, we're predicting. We are trying to manage what's going to happen here because if the sh- hits the fan, I need a plan. That's why we're catastrophizers. We're this, we're that, da, da, all that. We're protectors. And if you're in the future, I have enormous compassion 'cause something bad happened that's asking to be attended to.

Lewis Howes 1:05:41 Yeah, to prepare.

David Kessler 1:05:43 And, and that past needs attention. And if you're in your future, do you know what you can't be?

Lewis Howes 1:05:50 In the present.

David Kessler 1:05:51 And loving and connecting.

Lewis Howes 1:05:53 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 1:05:54 If love and connectius h- connection helps us and we're in our future, we're in trouble. So many times I'll be working with someone who's saying they're really anxious, and they go out and they see their friends and it doesn't work out well. And I'll go, "What happens?" "Well, I sit down with my friend, I tell them, da, da, how anxious I am." And I go, "And then?" "Eventually they say nice to see me and leave."

Lewis Howes 1:06:20 Yeah.

David Kessler 1:06:20 And I go, "So here's the plan."

Lewis Howes 1:06:21 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 1:06:22 You gotta go, we're gonna be together for an hour today. I'd like to take a chunk of that and just tell you what's going on with me.

Lewis Howes 1:06:32 Mm.

David Kessler 1:06:33 And then really keep me accountable, and then I want to hear what's going on with you, and I want to be really present for you, too. Then we suddenly have a connection and instead of one person living in the future, two people have brought themselves into the present. ... changes everything.

Lewis Howes 1:06:55 Yeah.

David Kessler 1:06:57 Love and connection only can happen in the now.

Lewis Howes 1:07:01 If someone is always stressed and worrying about the future, what is that signaling about that person? Is it that they're, they have a pain from the past that's unresolved?

David Kessler 1:07:10 They have something from the past-

Lewis Howes 1:07:11 Really?

David Kessler 1:07:12 ... that's asking for their attention.

Lewis Howes 1:07:14 Mm.

David Kessler 1:07:14 And they're playing it out that way. Listen, and it doesn't mean you can't be like really productive and really successful and really doing amazing things in the world. It's how do we do it? I mean, I've been successfully doing things in unhealthy ways and in healthy ways, and it feels different on the inside.

Lewis Howes 1:07:36 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 1:07:36 And I know that.

Lewis Howes 1:07:37 Yeah.

David Kessler 1:07:39 And I, I mean, we're all struggling. I mean, believe me, I, I, I'm sure I could say it about two... Like whatever you think, we got stuff going on.

Lewis Howes 1:07:47 Yeah.

David Kessler 1:07:48 We always do, and if we don't today, it's coming tomorrow, and we'll be able to manage it.

Lewis Howes 1:07:54 What's your biggest fear for humanity over the next 10 years based on what we've been through with COVID and wars over the last six, seven years and the predictions of the future with all the changes of AI and financial currencies and wars and, and, and conflict? What is your worry-

David Kessler 1:08:13 Do we-

Lewis Howes 1:08:13 ... on humanity's ability to be loving and in the moment?

David Kessler 1:08:18 We will give away our power. We'll, we'll give away our power, whether it's to our government, leaders, whatever it is, we're gonna give our power away, or to AI. Listen, I got an AI. I really made sure it didn't say generic stuff that you can find anywhere. I created it just from my work. It's better for the environment. It helps people in so many ways. Look, I can be up in the middle of the night if I happen to be scrolling and seeing there's a woman in Serbia whose child just died. I can get on WhatsApp and call and talk to her in Serbia for an hour right after her child died. Can't do that often. AI helps me help people at 3:00 a.m. 'cause grief's 24 hours a day.

Lewis Howes 1:09:12 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 1:09:13 So that's a really wonderful thing about AI if it's curated and safely done. On the other hand, you know, it can take over the world and, you know, we're in an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie because we gave our power away-

Lewis Howes 1:09:29 Yeah

David Kessler 1:09:29 ... to the people who are managing it. Find your own power and use it to change something.

Lewis Howes 1:09:36 If you could prescribe that every person watching and listening master one skill to have more love, harmony, peace for the future no matter what happens as they're gonna go through different challenges in life, they're gonna go through different grief and losses and unmet, um, changes, what's the one skill you would prescribe everyone to learn or master to be able to navigate the uncertainties of what will happen in the future?

David Kessler 1:10:07 Get support. Get support. You know, it's a strange thing. I had a flat tire, and when I got new tires, I bought a tire plan. I bought a plan for my tires in case I hit a pothole. Do you know that sometimes I don't treat myself well?

Lewis Howes 1:10:30 Mm.

David Kessler 1:10:30 But I protected my tires. So if we can get support, doesn't have to be a therapist or a grief group or divorce group or whatever it i- Just talk to a friend.

Lewis Howes 1:10:42 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 1:10:43 Share. Find a way to connect with someone else.

Lewis Howes 1:10:48 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 1:10:49 Connection is everything.

Lewis Howes 1:10:52 Yes.

David Kessler 1:10:52 Just connect with one other person, and if you can't connect, go help, go volunteer.

Lewis Howes 1:10:58 Mm-hmm. That'll help you a lot. Your book's called Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief by David Kessler. I want you guys to check this out. Uh, for me, when I learned how to navigate grief and loss and heal, it created such a level of peace and abundance inside of me, and it didn't mean I was, like, perfect overnight, and it didn't... You know, I still have stresses. But when I learned how to navigate these skills, it gave me... It unlocked my life in ways I never knew were possible.

David Kessler 1:11:32 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:11:33 So I want people to get your book, and-

David Kessler 1:11:34 I also did a workbook with it-

Lewis Howes 1:11:36 I saw that, yes

David Kessler 1:11:36 ... because I want people go, "What's Grief Work?" It's like-

Lewis Howes 1:11:39 Mm-hmm

David Kessler 1:11:40 ... this is like me sitting down with you at your kitchen table. We're gonna do it together.

Lewis Howes 1:11:43 Yeah, and I think the workbook is probably the best place to start because if you're afraid to speak in front of other people-

David Kessler 1:11:48 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:11:48 ... then it's almost like you have a, you know, you working with them-

David Kessler 1:11:52 Right

Lewis Howes 1:11:53 ... through a workbook where you can be introspective rather than in a group setting.

David Kessler 1:11:57 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:11:57 But like you said, the best place to go next is with a group, whether you're paying for a therapist, you're meeting a, a small group somewhere, and you have, um, aboutgrief.com has Tender Hearts Online Grief Groups.

David Kessler 1:12:12 We have-

Lewis Howes 1:12:12 Is that right?

David Kessler 1:12:12 ... aboutgrief.com is a free video that just teaches you about grief. My website is grief.com. You can find our Tender Hearts Grief Group there. We got 26 groups around people dying-

Lewis Howes 1:12:27 Wow

David Kessler 1:12:27 ... whether it's a brother or sister. We've got a faith group, an afterlife group. We even got an anticipatory grief group for people whose loved ones are sick.

Lewis Howes 1:12:35 And these are all online, or-

David Kessler 1:12:37 All online.

Lewis Howes 1:12:37 Wow.

David Kessler 1:12:37 And we've got, like, a time for Australia, a time for Europe.

Lewis Howes 1:12:40 Wow.

David Kessler 1:12:40 Uh, you know, we, we've really honed that really well to help people. Um, no one's turned away for lack of funds. We make sure everyone has access to that.

Lewis Howes 1:12:52 Wow, that's cool.

David Kessler 1:12:53 And, uh, the other thing you can find on grief.com is we got a amazing grief certificate program. People who wanna turn their pain into purpose. You know, not everyone can do books or podcasts, but maybe you could be the person in your neighborhood that people know how to come to.

Lewis Howes 1:13:10 Mm.

David Kessler 1:13:11 Or maybe you could be the therapist or the coach that becomes really good and understands the changes we can make when we get this part of our life.

Lewis Howes 1:13:20 Wow. Okay, so that's all at grief.com?

David Kessler 1:13:22 Grief.com. You can find it all there.

Lewis Howes 1:13:24 That's amazing. And what's the difference between online grief group versus in person?

David Kessler 1:13:30 You know, I was the first to say when that whole thing started, I was like, "I don't know that emotions will translate." And someone said to me, "Have you been to a movie?"

Lewis Howes 1:13:38 [laughs]

David Kessler 1:13:38 Like, emotions translate. But it's great because I watched the struggle for years of people who went, "I want just a suicide group, but I'm in a group of widows," or, "My local one doesn't have a group for siblings," or, you know, "I'm a young widow. It's hard for me to be with older wi-" We can do them.

Lewis Howes 1:14:02 Wow.

David Kessler 1:14:02 We can just do them online in your time zone so easy.

Lewis Howes 1:14:06 And does someone, when they join one of these grief groups, do they go once a week, once a month? What is this process?

David Kessler 1:14:10 We have it where it's four times a week that they have the options to attend.

Lewis Howes 1:14:16 Wow.

David Kessler 1:14:17 And it's like you wanna go into a group, great. Two times a week you can see me working with one person. Someone volunteers to work with me, everyone else watches, and people go, "Why would that help?" That person asks a question you didn't know you needed the answer.

Lewis Howes 1:14:35 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 1:14:36 And it changes you.

Lewis Howes 1:14:37 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 1:14:37 And then on Fridays we have a different topic, because there's not one voice in grief, not mine, not yours. And it's like, let's take a topic and discuss it. How did you handle guilt?

Lewis Howes 1:14:49 Mm.

David Kessler 1:14:50 How do you handle being happy? How do you handle the things that people say that are cruel?

Lewis Howes 1:14:57 You know, it's interesting. I was coaching, um,

Lewis Howes 1:15:00 someone at an event a few weeks ago, and it was a widow, a woman who had lost her husband that she was in love with, and I think it was about-

David Kessler 1:15:09 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:15:09 ... maybe 10 years ago, and she's remarried. She's got a blended family and I think new kids as well in the remarriage, and she was like, "One of the hardest things for me has been, like, feeling good, like accepting that I feel really good where I'm at now. I feel guilty h- being happy."

David Kessler 1:15:33 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:15:34 "When other people are not happy, they're still grieving. They, they feel like you're never gonna be able to find someone again, or you're not allowed to have love and joy and happiness again when you've lost your husband or, or someone close to you." And she goes, "It feels really good to finally start to be able to say I'm worthy of feeling happy again and love again, even though I lost a great man that I loved as well."

David Kessler 1:15:58 That's a story we often play in our mind of disloyalty.

Lewis Howes 1:16:02 Mm.

David Kessler 1:16:04 Look, really? I'm gonna be happy again after my son died? That doesn't sound like a good parent, but I had to really think about who my son is, and am I being loyal to him by not living again? Is that really what he would want? And I'll tell you, I can imagine, I don't know what the afterlife's like, but I could imagine, whatever it is, how many years from now, decades, I arrive in the afterlife and I meet my son. It's great. We finally see each other again, and he says to me, "Oh my gosh, tell me about Earth. Wasn't it incredible?" And I go, "Well, I grieved." "Yeah, yeah. No, I'm sure you did. That had to be hard. It was really brutal. I get it. And what about, like, oh, I miss the food. Was the food... What else did, did you go places? Did you travel? Do you..." And I'm like, "No, I just grieved."

Lewis Howes 1:17:00 Just sat in my home. Yeah.

David Kessler 1:17:00 My son would be like, "Dude, life's too, too incredible to miss."

Lewis Howes 1:17:06 Mm.

David Kessler 1:17:07 And here's the thing, it's a decision. She made a decision.

Lewis Howes 1:17:12 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 1:17:12 You know, I live in a cute little neighborhood with these little small houses, and I can imagine, I knew there was a moment where I could have been the grief guy that never left his house again.

Lewis Howes 1:17:27 Mm.

David Kessler 1:17:27 And I could imagine the teenagers driving by going, "Is that a haunted house?" No, it's a grief expert whose son died and he never came out again.

Lewis Howes 1:17:36 Oh, my gosh.

David Kessler 1:17:37 I could have seen that, but it was a decision to live again.

Lewis Howes 1:17:43 Wow.

David Kessler 1:17:44 And each of us, in small ways and big ways, not just around death, have that decision every day to show up, to live again, to sink. Every one of us is deciding that constantly, no matter what your circumstances are.

Lewis Howes 1:18:04 Yes. I've got a couple final questions for you, David, but I want to acknowledge you first for not being stuck in your house after grief, and coming out and finding ways to expand and live even with more joy, more love-

David Kessler 1:18:18 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:18:18 ... more acceptance, and, um, continuing to be of service to so many people who are going through this, and ultimately finding meaning in the process.

David Kessler 1:18:27 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:18:27 Because I think that's, that's what makes life richer. And when I can look back on my life, you know, I don't like that the five-year-old in me had to experience-

David Kessler 1:18:35 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:18:35 ... sexual abuse, but I can find meaning now and not say I wish it happened again.

David Kessler 1:18:43 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:18:43 But I can find meaning saying it did happen, and because I'm able to process it now and find meaning, hopefully I'm able to help other people-

David Kessler 1:18:51 Right

Lewis Howes 1:18:51 ... by being able to sit with them or being able to share this story with you-

David Kessler 1:18:55 Right

Lewis Howes 1:18:55 ... without it crippling me like it used to.

David Kessler 1:18:58 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:18:59 And so that meaning that you've created is really powerful, and I acknowledge you for that. Um, I have two final questions for you. This is called the three truths.

David Kessler 1:19:07 Okay.

Lewis Howes 1:19:07 So imagine hypothetically you get to live as long as you want, um, but on the final day, you have to take all of your work with you. So this book, this podcast, everything you've ever created, everything you create from now until that day is gone. Not from this world anymore. But you get to leave behind three final lessons with the world that we would get to keep. I call it the three truths. What would those be for you?

David Kessler 1:19:31 Love is all that matters. Let the good just saturate in you. Take in the good. We know how to take in the bad.

Lewis Howes 1:19:40 [laughs]

David Kessler 1:19:41 Take in the good, and be you.

Lewis Howes 1:19:44 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 1:19:44 It's, it's, it's a strange thing, like those of us who have really done this work know being you sounds like the easiest thing in the world, to be your authentic self. It's the hardest thing to let go of all the who we think we should be, just be ourselves. I still work on that all the time.

Lewis Howes 1:20:02 Mm-hmm.

David Kessler 1:20:03 I'm gonna not only leave that behind for everyone, I'm gonna try to-

Lewis Howes 1:20:06 Yeah, yeah [laughs]

David Kessler 1:20:06 ... continue to take it in.

Lewis Howes 1:20:07 Of course. That's beautiful. Uh, final question, David, what's your definition of greatness?

David Kessler 1:20:12 Showing up for others and yourself. Showing up fully-

Lewis Howes 1:20:18 Mm

David Kessler 1:20:18 ... for others and yourself.

Lewis Howes 1:20:20 David Kessler, thanks for being here. Appreciate it.

David Kessler 1:20:22 Thank you for having me.

Lewis Howes 1:20:23 Amazing.

1:20:24 I don't think there are a lot of parents who wake up and maliciously try to screw up their kids or hurt their kids or belittle or shame their kids. Um, I think we're doing the best we can with what we have, and so I think to let go of the idea that if I have done something that I could have done better or that I could learn from, that I have to just come do- people defend their parenting