Lex Fridman PodcastAndrew Huberman: Relationships, Drama, Betrayal, Sex, and Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #393
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,006 words- 0:00 – 1:31
Introduction
- AHAndrew Huberman
Listen, when it comes to romantic relationships, if it's not 100% in you-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... it ain't happening. And I've never seen a violation of that statement, where it's like, yeah, it's mostly good, and there's like the negotiations. W- Well, already, you're- you're- you're- it's doomed. And that doesn't mean someone has to be perfect, the relationship has to be perfect, but it's gotta feel 100% inside.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Like, yes, yes, and yes.
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with my dear friend, Andrew Huberman. His fourth time on this podcast. It's my birthday so this is a special birthday episode of sorts. Andrew flew down to Austin just to wish me a happy birthday and we decided to do a podcast last second. We literally talked for hours beforehand and a long time after, late into the night. He's one of my favorite human beings, brilliant scientist, incredible teacher, and a loyal friend. I'm grateful for Andrew. I'm grateful for good friends, for all the support and love I've gotten over the past few years. I'm truly grateful for this life. For the years, the days, the minutes, the seconds I've gotten to live on this beautiful earth of ours. I really don't want to leave just yet. I think I'd really like to stick around. I love you all. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. And now, dear friends, here's Andrew Huberman.
- 1:31 – 7:42
Exercise routine
- AHAndrew Huberman
Trying to, uh, run a little bit more.
- LFLex Fridman
Are you losing weight?
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'm not trying to lose weight but I always do the same fitness routine.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
After like 30 years, basically, uh, lift three days a week, run three days a week. Um, but one of the runs is a long run, one of them's medium, one of them's a sprint-type thing. So, um, what I've decided to do this year was just extend the duration of the long run. And, um, I like being, uh, mobile. I- I never wanna be, um, so heavy that I can't move. Like I- like I wanna be able to go out and run 10 miles if I have to, so sometimes I do. Um, and I wanna be able to sprint if I have to, so sometimes I do. And, um, lifting in objects is, feels good. It feels good to train like a lazy bear and just lift heavy objects. But I've also started training with lighter weights and higher repetitions. And, um, for three-month cycles, and it gives your joints a rest. And, um, yeah, so I probably, you know, it- I think it also is interesting to see how training differently changes your cognition. That's probably hormone related, you know, hormones downstream of training heavy versus hormones downstream of training a little bit lighter. Um, I think my cognition is better when I'm doing more cardio and when the repetition ranges are a little bit, um, higher. Which is not to say that people who lift heavy are dumb. Um-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
But there is a... 'cause there's real value in lifting heavy.
- LFLex Fridman
There's a lot of angry people listening to this right now. (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
No, no, no, but lifting heavy and then taking three to five minutes rest is far and away a different challenge than running hard for 90 minutes. That's a tough thing. Just like getting in an ice bath. People say, "Oh, well, how is that any different than working out?" Um, well, there are a lot of differences but one of them is that it's very acute stress. Within one second, you're stressed.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So, I- I think subjecting the body to a bunch of different types of stressors, in space and time, is really valuable. So yeah, I've been playing with the variables in a pretty systematic way.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, I like long and slow for, like you said, the impact it has on my cognition.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, I- it- it- uh, the wordlessness of it, um, the way it puts you in- in, uh, the way it seems to, um, clean out the clutter.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You know? Um, it can take away that hyperfocus and put you more in a relaxed focus, uh, for sure.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, for me, it brings the clutter to the surface at first.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Like all these thoughts come in there, and then they dissipate. You know, I've been, uh, 'cause I got knee-barred pretty hard, that's when somebody tries to break your knee up, so...
- AHAndrew Huberman
I was just, what's a knee-bar? They try and break your knee? Oh.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I see, tap, so they...
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's, you know, hyper extend the knee th- that direction. I got knee-barred pretty hard. So, um, in ways I don't understand, it kinda hurts to run. I don't understand what's happening behind there, I need to-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay.
- LFLex Fridman
... investigate this. It basically, this, the hamstring flex, like curling your leg hurts a little bit.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay.
- LFLex Fridman
And that results in this weird dull, but sometimes extremely sharp pain, in the back of the knee. So I'm, I'm work- I'm- I'm working through this.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Figure it out.
- LFLex Fridman
But walking doesn't hurt, so I've been playing around with walking-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... recently. Like for two hours and thinking.
- 7:42 – 14:56
Advice to younger self
- LFLex Fridman
- AHAndrew Huberman
... is all that comments.
- LFLex Fridman
So this is technically a birthday podcast. Uh, what, what do you love most about getting older?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm. It's like a, it, the confirmation that comes from getting more and more data, th- which basically says, yeah, the first time you thought that thing, it was actually right because the second, third, and fourth, and fifth time, um, it turned out the exact same way. In other words, um, there have been a few times in my life where I did not feel easy about something I did, I felt a signal from my body, this is not good.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, and I didn't trust it early on, but I knew it was there. And then two or three bad experiences later, I'm able to say, ah, every single time, there was a signal from the body informing my mind, this is not good. Now, the reverse has also been true that there've been a number of instances in which I feel sort of immediate delight, and there's this kind of almost astonishingly simple experience of feeling, um, comfortable with somebody or at peace with something or delighted at an experience. And it turns out all, literally, all of those experiences and people turned out to be experiences and people that are still in my life and that I, um, still delight in every day. In other words, what's great about getting older is that you stop questioning-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... the signals that come from the, I think, deeper recesses of your nervous system to say, "Hey, this is not good." Or, "Hey, this is great. More of this." Whereas I think in, uh, my teens, my 20s, my 30s, I'm 40, almost 48, I'll be 48 next month, um, I, I didn't trust, I didn't listen. I actually put a lot of work into overriding those signals and learning to fight through them, thinking that somehow that was making me tougher or somehow that was making me, um, smarter. When in fact, in the end, those people that you meet that are k- you know, difficult or, you know, there are other names for it, you know, it's like, (laughs) you're like, in the end, you're like, "That person's a piece of shit." You know? Or, um, this person is amazing.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And they're really wonderful. And I felt that from Go.
- LFLex Fridman
So you've learned to trust your gut versus like the, the influences of other people's opinions?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, I've learned to trust my gut versus the, uh, the forebrain over-analysis, overriding the gut. Other people often in my life have had great optics, right? I've- I've benefited tremendously from an early age of being in a large community of what has been mostly guys but I have some close female friends and always have as well, who will tell me like, "That's a bad decision." Or, "This person, not so good." Or, "Be careful." Or, "They're great." Or, "That's great." So oftentimes my community and the people around me have been, uh, more aligned with, uh, the correct choice than not.
- LFLex Fridman
You sh- really?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
Really?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
When you were younger, like, or like friends-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Well, I-
- LFLex Fridman
... parents and so on?
- AHAndrew Huberman
I don't recall ever really listening to my parents that much.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
I, you know, I grew up in a, you know, we don't have to go back to my childhood thing, but my sense was that-
- LFLex Fridman
It's not your fault, Andrew.
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs) Thank you. I learned that recently-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
... in a, in a psilocybin journey. Um, my first, my first high-dose psilocybin journey, which was, um-
- LFLex Fridman
Welcome back.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... done with a clinician, thank you very much. Thank you. I was worried there for a second at one point, am I not coming back? But in, uh, in any event, um, yeah, I grew up with some wild kids. You know, I would say about a third of my friends from childhood are dead or in jail. Um, about a third have gone on to do tremendously impressive things, start companies, excellent athletes, uh, academics, um, scientists, and, um, and clinicians, and, and then about a third are living their lives as, as kind of more typical, I just mean, um, that they are happy family people, uh, with jobs that they mainly, um, serve the function to make money, they're not sort of career, into their career for career's sake. But, um, so some of my friends early on gave me some bad ideas.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, but most of the time my bad ideas came from, um...... overriding the signals that I knew, uh, that my body and, I would say, my body and brain were telling me, uh, to obey. And why I say body and brain is that there's this brain region, the insula, which, um, does many things, but it represents our sense of internal, uh, sensation, interoception. And I was talking to Paul Conti about this, you know, who as, who as you know, um, I trem- respect tremendously. I think he's one of the smartest people I've ever met. Um, I think for different reasons, he and Marc Andreessen are some of the, like, smartest people I've ever met. But Paul's level of insight into the human psyche is, is absolutely astounding. And, um, and, um, he says the opposite of what most people say about the brain, which is most people say, "Oh, the super computer of the brain is the forebrain." It's like a monkey brain with a extra real estate put on there, and the forebrain is what makes us human, um, and gives us our, our super powers. Uh, Paul has said, um, and he's done a whole series on mental health that's coming out from our, uh, podcast in September, so this is not an attempt to plug that, but he- he'll elaborate on what I'm about to say.
- 14:56 – 19:42
Jungian shadow
- AHAndrew Huberman
- LFLex Fridman
What do you think is there in that subconscious? What, what do you think of the Jungian shadow? Is, what, what's there?
- AHAndrew Huberman
You know, there's this idea, as you're familiar with too, I'm sure, that this Jungian idea that there, we all have all things inside of us, that all of us have the capacity to be evil, to be good, etc., but that some people express one or the other to a greater extent. But he also mentioned that there's a unique category of people, maybe two to 5% of people, that don't just have all things inside of them, but they actually spend a lot of time exploring a lot of those things.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
The darker recesses, the shadows, their own shadows.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, you know, I'm somebody who's drawn to goodness and to light and to joy and all those things like anybody else, but no, I think, um, maybe it was part of how I grew up, maybe it was the crowd I was with, um, um, maybe... But then again, you know, even when I started spending more time with academics and scientists, I mean, um, you see shadows in other ways, right? You see pure ambition with no passion. I, I, I recall a colleague, um, in San Diego, who it was very clear to me, did not actually care about understanding the brain, but understanding the brain was just his avenue to exercise ambition.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And if you gave him something else to work on, he'd work on that, and in fact, he did. He left and he worked on something else, and I realized he has no passion for understanding the brain like all the... I assumed all scientists do.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Certainly why I went into it, but some people, it's just raw ambition. It's about winning, it doesn't even matter what they win, it's just, to which to me is crazy, but I think that's a shadow that some people explore, not one I've explored. Um, I think the shadow parts of us are very important to come to understand. And look, better to understand them and know that they're there and work with them, than to not acknowledge their presence and have them surface in the form of addictions or behaviors that, um, that damage us and other people.
- LFLex Fridman
So one of the processes f- for achieving mental health is to bring those things to the surface. So fish the subconscious mind.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yes, and, um, and, you know, he, Paul describes 10 cupboards that one can look into for exploring the self. There's the structure of self and the function of self. Again, this will all be spelled out in the series in a lot of detail, also in terms of its relational aspect between people.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
How to pick good partners and good relationships, he gets really into this from a very different perspective.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, yeah, fascinating stuff. I was just sitting there just... I will say this, that that four episode series with Paul is, at least to date, the most important work I've ever been involved in, in all of my career because it's very clear that we are not taught how to explore our subconscious.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And that very few people actually understand how to do that, even most psychiatrists. He has a, uh, he mentions something about psychiatrists. You know, if you're a cardiothoracic surgeon or something like that and 50% of your patients die, you're considered a bad cardiothoracic surgeon. But, with no disrespect to psychiatrists, there are, there are some excellent psychiatrists out there, there are also a lot of terrible psychiatrists out there because unless all of those...... all of their patients commit suicide or half commit suicide. They can treat for a long time without it becoming visible that, th- they're not so good at their craft. Now, he's superb at his craft and, um, I think he would say that, yes, exploring some shadows, but also just understanding the self. Like, what, what... You know, really under- understanding like who, like, who am I? And, and what's important? What are my ambitions? What are my strivings? Again, I'm lifting from some of the things that, that Hill described exactly how to do this. People do not spend enough time addressing those questions. And as a consequence, they discover what resides in their subconscious through the sometimes bad, uh, hopefully, al- also good, but, um, manifestations of their actions. They're... We are driven by this huge 90% of our real estate that is not visible to our conscious awareness, and we, we need to understand that. You know, I've talked about this before, I've done therapy twice a week since I was a kid. I had to as a condition of being let back in school. Um, I continue... I found a way to, either through insurance or even when I didn't have insurance, I took an extra job writing for Thrasher Magazine when I was a post-doc so I could pay for therapy at a, at a discount 'cause I didn't make much money as a post-doc. I mean, I think, for me, it's as important as going to the gym.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And people think it's just, oh, you know, ruminating on problems or getting support. No, no, no. If you work with somebody really good, they're forcing you to ask questions about who you really are, what you really want. Um, it's not just about support, but there should be support, there should be rapport, but then it's also... There should insight,
- 19:42 – 39:52
Betrayal and loyalty
- AHAndrew Huberman
right? Most people who get therapy, they're getting support, there's rapport, but insight is not easy (laughs) to arrive at. And a really good psychologist or psychiatrist can help you arrive at deep insights that transform your entire life.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, sometimes when I look inside, and I do this often, you know, exploring who you truly are, you come to this question. Do I accept... Once you see parts, do I accept this or do I fix this?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Is this a... Is this who you are fundamentally and it will always be this way or is this a problem to be fixed? Like, for example, one of the things, especially recently, but in general over time, I've discovered about myself, probably has roots in childhood, probably has roots in a lot of things, is I deeply value loyalty. Maybe more than the average person. And so when there's disloyalty, it can be painful to me. And so this is who I am. And so do I have to relax a bit? Do I have to fix this part or is this who you are? And then... And there's a million... That's one like little-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm. I think loyalty is a good thing to cling to, provided that when loyalty is broken that it doesn't, um, disrupt too many other areas of your life. But it depends also on who's disrupting that loyalty. If it's a co-worker versus a ro- romantic partner versus your exclusive romantic partner depending on the structure of your romantic partner life, you know? Uh, I mean, I have always experienced extreme, um, joy and feelings of safety and trust in my friendships. Again, mostly male friendships, but female friendships too, which is only to say that they were mostly male friendships.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
The female friendships have also been very loyal. Um, let... You know, so getting back-stabbed is not something I'm familiar with. Um, and yeah, I love being crewed up, you know?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, yeah. No, for, for sure. And I'm with you and, you know, you and I are, uh, very much have the same values on this. But, you know, there... That's one little thing and then there's many other things, like, um, extremely self-critical. And you look at my... You know, I look at myself as I'm regularly very self-critical. There's a self-critical engine in my brain. And I talked to actually Paul about this, I think on the podcast, quite a bit. And he's saying this is a really bad thing.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Like, "You need to fix this."
- AHAndrew Huberman
Hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
"You need to be able to be regularly very, uh, positive about yourself." And I kept disagreeing with him. "No, this is like who I am." Like you... And it seems to work. Don't mess with a thing that seems to be working. It's fine. Like, I oscillate between being really grateful and really self-critical. But then you have to like figure out what is... Maybe is there's a deeper root thing. There's an ins- maybe there's an insecurity in there somewhere that has to do with childhood. And then you're trying to prove something to somebody from your childhood, this kind of thing.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Well, a couple of things that I think are hopefully valuable for people here. One is, um, one way to destroy your life is to spend time trying to control your or somebody else's past. Um, so much of our destructive behavior and thinking comes from wanting something that we saw or did or heard to not be true, rather than really working with that and getting close to what it really was and, um, you know, sometimes those things are even traumatic and we need to really get close to them and it... And re- for them to move through us. And, and that... You know, there are a bunch of different ways to do that with support from others and hopefully but sometimes on our own as well. The... I don't think we can rewire our deep preferences and what we find despicable or joyful. I do think that it's really a question of what allows us peace. Like, can you be at peace with the fact that you're very self-critical and enjoy that, get some distance from it, have a sense of humor about it?
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Or is it driving you in a way that's keeping you awake at night and-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... um, and forcing you back to the table to do work in a way that feels self-flagellating and doesn't feel good? Um, you know, can you get that humility and awareness of how you're-... you know, of your one's flaws. And I think that, that can create, you know, this word space sounds very new age-y, like get space from it. Is that you can have a sense of humor about how, how neurotic we can all be. I mean, you know, neurotic isn't actually a bad term in the classic sense of, of the psychologists and psychiatrists. The Freudians said that, "You know, the best case is to be neurotic, to actually see one's own issues and work with them." Whereas psychotic is the, is the other, is the other way to be, uh, which is obviously not good. So I think, um, the question of whether or not to work on something or to, um, just accept it as part of ourselves, I think really depends if we feel like it's holding us back or not. And, uh, I, I think you're asking perhaps the most profound question about being a human, which is, you know, what, what do you do with your body? What do you do with your mind? I mean, if you... It's also a question we started off talking about fitness a little bit, we just for whatever reason. Um, you know, do I need to run an ultra-marathon? I don't feel like I need to. Um, David Goggins does and, and does a whole lot more than that. So that for him, that's important. For me, it's not important to do that. I don't think he does it just so he can run the ultras. Um, there's clearly something else in there for him and guys like Cam Hanes and, and, uh, tremendous respect for what they do and how they do it. Um, does one need to make their body more muscular, stronger, more endurance, more flexibility? Do you need to read harder books? Do you need to... I think doing hard things feels good. Um, I think it, I know it feels good. I know that the worse I feel, the worst way to feel is when I'm procrastinating and I don't do something, and then whenever I do something and I complete it and I break through that point where it was hard and then I'm doing it, at the end, I actually feel like I was infused with some sort of, um, super chemical. And who knows if it's probably a cocktail of, of endogenously made chemicals, but I think it is good to do hard things. But you have to be careful not to destroy your body, your mind in the process. And I think it's about whether or not you can achieve peace on earth. Can you sleep well at night? Stress isn't bad if you can sleep well at night. You can be stressed all day, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, and it'll optimize your focus, but can you fall asleep and stay deeply asleep at night? Um, being in a hard relationship. Some people say, you know, "That's not good." Other people like it. Can you be at peace in that? And I think we all, you know, have different RPM that, you know, we all kind of idle at different RPM and, um, some people are big Melo Costelos and others are kind of like, you know, need, need more friction in order to, to feel at peace. But I think ultimately what we want is to feel at peace.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, I've, uh, been through some really low points over the past couple of years, and I think the reason could be boiled down to the fact that I haven't been able to find a place of peace. A, a, a place or people or moments that give deep inner peace. Uh, yeah. I, you know... And I think you put it really beautifully. It's, uh, you have to figure out, given who you are, the various, um, characteristics of your mind, all the things, all the contents of the cupboards, uh, how to, how to get space from it. And ultimately, one good representation of that is to be able to laugh at all of it. Whatev- whatever, whatever's going on inside your mind, to be able to step back and just kind of chuckle at the, at the beauty and the absurdity of the whole thing.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, and keep going. There's this beautiful-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... as I mentioned, it seems like every podcast lately, um, I'm a huge Rancid fan, mostly because I just think Tim Armstrong's writing is, is pure poetry and whether or not you like the music or not, um, you know, and he's written music for a lot of other people too. He's not, doesn't advertise that much 'cause he's humble, but I-
- LFLex Fridman
And that, by the way, I went to a show of theirs like 20 years ago.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Oh, yeah? I'm going to see them in Boston on September 18th. I'm literally flying there for, for, um, uh, or I'll take the train up from New York. I'm gonna meet a friend of mine named Jim Thibeaux, who's a big, a guy who owns a lot of companies in skateboard industry. Um, we're meeting there like a couple of little kids to go see them play. Amazing, amazing people, amazing musi- music.
- LFLex Fridman
Very intense.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Very intense and, but em- embodies all the different emotions. That's why I love it, right? They have some love songs, they have some hate songs, they have some... And, um, but, you know, there's a, going back to what you said, I think there's a, there's a song, the first song on the Indestructible album, I think there's a, um, it's sort of he's just talking about like shock and disbelief of discovering things about people that were close to you. And, you know, it's, um, I won't, I won't sing it, but, you know, nor, I wouldn't dare. But, um, but there's this one lyric where that's really stuck in my mind for, for ever since that album came out in 2003, which is, um, you know, that nothing's what it seems so I just sit here laughing. I'm gonna keep going on. I can't get distracted. There is this piece of like, you got to learn how to push out the disturbing stuff sometimes and go forward. And I mean, I remember hearing that lyric and, and then writing it down and, you know, that was a time where my undergraduate advisor, who was like a mentor and a father to me, you know, blew his head off in the bathtub-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... like three weeks before. And then my graduate advisor, who I was working for at that time, who I loved and adored, was really like a mother to me. I knew her when she was pregnant with her two kids, died at 50, breast cancer. And then my post-doc advisor, you know, first day of work at Stanford as a faculty member sitting across the table like this from him, had a heart attack right in front of me, died of pancreatic cancer at the end of 2017. And I remember just thinking like, you know, going back to that song lyric over and over, like, and where people would... Um, you know, I haven't had many betrayals in life. I've had a few, but just thinking like or seeing something or learning something about somebody, you're just like you can't believe it.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I, I, I mentioned that-... that lyric off that first song, Indestructible on that album, because it's this, the emo- like just the raw emotion of like, "I can't believe this. What I just saw-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- 39:52 – 57:31
Drama
- AHAndrew Huberman
- LFLex Fridman
So speaking of Shakespeare, I've recently gotten to know Neri Oxman, who's this incredible, uh, scientist that works at the intersection of nature and engineering, and she, uh, reminded me of this, uh, Anna Akhmatova line, this is this great Soviet poet that I really love, from, uh, over a century ago, that, "Each of our lives is a Shakespearean drama raised to the thousandth degree." So I have to ask, why do you think humans are attracted to this kind of Shakespearean drama?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm...
- LFLex Fridman
Is there some aspect, we've been talking about the subconscious mind, that, that pulls us towards the drama, even though the place of mental health is peace?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yes, and yes.
- LFLex Fridman
Do you have some of that?
- AHAndrew Huberman
A draw towards drama?
- LFLex Fridman
Drama?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
If you look at the empirical data.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yes. I mean, it... right, if I look at the empirical data, I mean, I think about who I chose to work for as an undergraduate, right? I was a, you know, barely finished high school, finally get to college, barely... I think I... this is really embarrassing and not something to aspire to, you know, I was, um, you know, thrown out of the dorms for fighting, um-
- LFLex Fridman
Nice.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Barely passed my classes, you know, I... the girlfriend and I split up, I mean, I was living in a squat, got into... I was getting in trouble with the law. I eventually got my act together, go back to school, start working for somebody. Who do I choose to work for? A guy who's an ex-Navy guy who smokes cigarettes in the fume hood, drinks coffee-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and we're injecting rats with MDMA.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And, you know, I was drawn to, like, the personality, his energy, but I also... he was a great, he was a great scientist, worked out a lot on thermal regulation in the brain and, um, and more. Um, you know, go to graduate school, I'm working for somebody, and decide that, yeah, doing... working in her laboratory wasn't quite right for me. So I'm literally sneaking into the laboratory next door and working for the woman next door because I liked the relationships that she had to a certain set of questions and she was a, kind of a quirky person and... you know? So drawn to drama, but drawn to... I like characters.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I like people that have texture.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I'm not drawn to raw ambition, I'm drawn to people that seem to have a real passion for what they do and a uniqueness to them that I, I... you know, you can kind of f- not kind of...I'll just say it how it is, I can feel their heart for what they do and I'm, I'm drawn to that. Like... Um, and that can be good. The same reason I went to work for Ben Barres, uh, as a post-doc, it wasn't because he was the first transgender man, member of the National Academy of Sciences, that was just a feature of who he was. I loved how he loved glia. He would talk about these cells like they were the most enchanting things that he'd ever seen in his life.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I was like, "This is like the biggest nerd I've ever met and I love him." I think we're dr- I'm drawn to that. Um, this is another thing that Conti makes, uh, elaborates on quite a bit more in the series on mental health coming out. But there are different drives within us. There's this... There are aggressive drives, not always for fighting, but for intense interaction. I mean, look at Twitter. Look at some of the... Look at people clearly have an aggressive drive. There's also a pleasure drive. Some people also have a strong pleasure drive. They wanna experience pleasure through food, through sex, through friendship, through adventure, you know? But I think the Shakespearean drama is the drama of the different drives in different ratios, in different people.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I, I know somebody and she's incredibly kind. Has an extremely high pleasure drive, loves taking great care of herself and people around her through food and through retreats and through all these things and makes spaces beautiful everywhere she goes, and is... Gifts these things that are just so unbelievably feminine and, and incredible, these gifts to people, and they're kind and thoughtful about what they like. And then, um... But I would say very little aggressive drive, um, from my read. And then I know other people who are, just have a ton of aggressive drive, and very little pleasure drive. And I think... So there's this alchemy that exists where people have these things in different ratios, and then you blend in, um, you know, the differences in the chromosomes, and differences in hormones, and differences in personal history, and what you end up with is a species that creates incredible recipes of drama, but also peace. Also relief from drama...
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
... contentment. I mean, I realize this isn't the exact topic of the question, but, um, someone I know very dearly, actually, an ex-girlfriend of mine, long-term partner of mine, um, sent me something recently and I think it hit the nail on the head, which is that, ideally, for a man, they eventually settle where they find and feel peace.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Where they feel peaceful. Where they can be themselves and feel peaceful. Now, I'm sure there's a equivalent or mirror image of that for women, um, but this particular post that she sent was about men. And I totally agree. And so, um, the... It isn't always that we're seeking friction, but for periods of our life, we seek friction, drama, adventure, excitement, fights, um, you know, and doing hard, hard things, and then I think at some point... I'm certainly coming to this point now where it's like, "Yeah, that's all great." And checked a lot of boxes. But had a lot of close calls, flew really close to the sun on a lot of things with life and limb, and, and heart and spirit, and some of, you know, people close to us didn't make it. And sometimes not making it means their, the career they wanted went off a cliff, or the, the, their health went off a cliff, or their life went off a cliff. But I think that, um, there's also the Shakespearean drama of the characters that exit the play and are living their lives happily in the backdrop. It just doesn't make for as much entertainment.
- LFLex Fridman
That's one other thing that's a benefit, you could say is a benefit of getting older, is, uh, um, finding the Shakespearean drama less appealing. Or finding the joy in the peace.
- 57:31 – 1:02:24
Chimp Empire
- LFLex Fridman
(sighs) You know, I mean, about prayer in general, you said information and, uh, figuring out how to get stronger, healthier, smarter, all those kinds of things. A part of me believes that deeply, you know? You can gain a lot of knowledge and wisdom through learning. But a part of me believes that all the wisdom I need was alw- was there when I was 11 and 12 years old.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And then it got cluttered over. Well, listen, I can't wait for you and Conti to talk again, because when he gets going about the subconscious and the amount of this that sits below the surface like an iceberg, and, and I th- and the fact that when we're kids we're, we're not obscuring a lot of that subconscious as, as much. And, and sometimes that can look a little more primitive.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs) I mean, I mean, a kid that's disappointed-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... will let you know. A kid that's excited will let you know, and you feel that raw exuberance or that raw dismale. And I think that, um, as we grow older, we learn to cover that stuff up. We, we, we wear masks and we have to do to be functional, right? I don't think we all wanna go around just being completely, um, raw. But as you said, as you get older, you also, you get to this point where you kinda go, "Eh." You know? What, what are we really trying to protect anyway?
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I mean, I have this theory that, you know, certainly my experience has taught me that a lot of people, but I'll talk about men 'cause that's what I know best. Whether or not they show up strong or not, that they're really afraid of being weak. Like, they're just afraid... Like, sometimes the strength is even a way to try and not be weak, right? Which is different than being strong for its own sake. I'm not just talking about physical strength. I'm talking about intellectual strength, I'm talking about money, I'm talking about, um, expressing drive. I've been watching this, um, series a little bit, of, uh, Chimp Empire.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You know it. So Chimp Empire is amazing, right? They have the head chimp, the, he's not the head chimp, but the, the, the alpha in the group.
- LFLex Fridman
Yep.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And he's getting older, and so what does he do? Every once in a while, he goes on these vigor displays.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
He goes and he grabs branches. He starts breaking 'em, he starts thrashing 'em, and he's incredibly strong, and they're all kinda like watching. I mean, yeah, I immediately think of people like when they're deadlifting on Instagram (laughs) and I just think vigor, displays of vigor.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
This is just the primate showing the, displays of vigor. Now, what's interesting is that he's doing that specifically to say, "Hey, I still have what it takes to lead this troop."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay? Then there are the, the ones that are subordinate to him, but not so, not so far behind.
- LFLex Fridman
It seems to be that there's a very clear, like numerical ranking.
- AHAndrew Huberman
There is.
- LFLex Fridman
Like there's-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... it's clear who's the number two and number three.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Oh, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
I mean, uh, probably-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Who gets to mate first, who gets to eat first. This exists in other animal societies too, but, uh, Bob Sapolsky would be a great person to talk about this with 'cause he knows, obviously, a tremendous amount about it, and I, I know just the top contour. But, um, yeah, so number two, three, and four males are...... aware that he's doing these vigor displays, but they're also aware because in primate evolution, they got some extra forebrain too, not as much as us, but they got some. And they're aware that the vigor displays are displays that because they've done them as well in a different context, might not just be displays of vigor, but might also be an insurance policy against people seeing weakness.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay. (laughs) So now, they start using that prefrontal cortex to do some interesting things. So in, in primate world, if a male is friendly with another male and wants to affiliate with him...
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
...and say, "Hey, I'm backing you," they'll go over and they'll, they'll, um, pick off the little gr- um, parasites and eat them. And so the grooming is extremely important. In fact, if they want to ostracize or kill one of the members of their, um, troop, they will just leave it alone. No one will groom it. And then there's actually a really disturbing, um, sequence in that show of then the parasites start to eat away on their skin, they get infections, they have issues, no one will mate with them, no one, they have other issues as well, and can potentially die. So the interesting thing is number two and three start to line up a strategy to groom this guy.
- 1:02:24 – 1:08:31
Overt vs covert contracts
- AHAndrew Huberman
So it's very interesting and it gets to something that I hope, uh, we'll have an opportunity to talk about 'cause it's something that I'm obsessed with lately, is this notion of overt versus covert contracts, right? There are overt contracts where you exchange work for money or you exchange any number of things in an overt way, but then there are covert contracts. Um, and those take on a very different form and always lead to, uh, in my belief, bad things.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, how much of human and chimp relationships are overt versus covert?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Well, here's one thing that we know is true. Dogs and humans, the dog-to-human relationship is 100% overt. They don't manipulate you. Now you could say they do in the sense that they learn that if they look a certain way or roll on their back, they get food.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But there's no, um, there's no banking of that behavior for a future date where then they're going to undermine you and take your position.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay? So in that sense, dogs can be a little bit manipulative in some sense, but, um, now... Okay, so overt contract would be we both wanna do some work together, we're gonna make some money, you get X percentage, I get X percentage. Overt. Covert contract, which is, in my opinion, ba- always bad, would be, we're gonna do some work together. You're gonna get a percentage of money. I'm gonna get a percentage of money. Could look just like the overt contract, but secretly, I'm resentful that I got the percentage I got, so what I start doing is covertly taking something else. What do I take? Maybe I take the opportunity to jab you verbally every once in a while.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Maybe I take the opportunity to show up late.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Maybe I take the opportunity to get to know one of your coworkers so that I might start a business with them. That's covert contracting.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And you see this sometimes in romantic relationships. One person, we won't set the male or female in any direction here and just say, "It's- I'll make you feel powerful if you make me feel desired." Okay, great. There's nothing explicitly wrong about that contract if they both know and they both agree. But what if it's, "I'll do that, but I'll have kids with you, so you feel powerful. You'll have kids with me, so I feel desired, but secretly, I don't wanna do that." Or they... One person says, "I don't wanna do that," or both don't. So what they end up doing is saying, "Okay, so I expect something else. I expect you to do certain things for me," or, "I expect you to pay for certain things for me." Covert contracts are the signature of everything bad. Overt contracts are the signature of all things good.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I think about this a lot because I've seen a lot of examples of this. I've... Like anyone, we participate in these things whether or not we want to or not, and the thing that gets transacted the most is... Well, I should say, the things that get transacted the most are the overt things. You'll see money, um, time, sex, um, property, whatever it happens to be, um, information. But what ends up happening is that when people, I believe, don't feel safe, they feel threatened in some way, like it's... They don't feel safe in a certain interaction. What they do is they start taking something else while still engaging in, in the exchange. And I'll tell you, if there's one thing about human nature that's bad, it's that feature. Why that feature? Or is it a bug or a feature, as you engineers like to say?
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, I think it's because we were allocated a certain extra amount of prefrontal cortex that makes us more sophisticated than a dog, more sophisticated than a chimpanzee, but they do it too, and it's because it's often harder to deal with, in the short term, to deal with the real sense of this is scary, this feels threatening, than it is to playout all the iterations. It takes a lot of brain work. It's... You're playing chess and Go simultaneously trying to figure out where things are gonna end up and we just don't know. So it's a way, I think, of creating a false sense of certainty, but I'll tell you, covert contracts, the only certainty is that it's gonna end badly. The question is how badly. Conversely, overt contracts always end well.... always. The problem with overt contracts is that you can't be certain that the other person is not engaging in a covert contract. You can only take responsibility for your own contracting.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, one of the challenges of being human is looking at another human being and figuring out the way, their way of being, their behavior, which of the two types of contracts it represents because they look awfully the same-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... on the surface.
- AHAndrew Huberman
That's right.
- LFLex Fridman
And one of the, one of the challenges of being human is the decision we all make, is are you somebody that takes a leap of trust and trusts other humans and are willing to take the hurt or are you going to be, uh, cynical and skeptical and avoid most interactions until they're, uh, they over a long period of time, uh, prove your trust?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, I never liked the phrase history repeats itself, um, when it comes to humans, because it doesn't apply if the people or the person is actively working to resolve their own flaws. I do think that if people are willing to do dedicated, introspective work, go into their subconscious, do the hard work, have hard conversations and get better at hard conversations, something that I'm constantly trying to get better at, I think people can change. But they have to want to change.
- LFLex Fridman
It does seem like deep down we all can kinda tell the difference between overt and covert.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Like, we have a good sense. I think one of the benefits of having this characteristical mind where I value loyalty, I've been extremely, uh, fortunate to spend most of my life in overt relationships. And I think that creates a really fulfilling
- 1:08:31 – 1:14:39
Age and health
- LFLex Fridman
life.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But there's also this thing, and maybe we're in this, uh, portion of the podcast now, but, um, but I've experienced this-
- LFLex Fridman
We should say that this is late at night, we're talking.
- AHAndrew Huberman
That's right. Certainly, late for me, but I'm two hours... I came in today on, uh, I'm still in California.
- LFLex Fridman
And we should also say that you came here to wish me a happy birthday
- AHAndrew Huberman
I did.
- LFLex Fridman
... because everything
- AHAndrew Huberman
I did. I am...
- LFLex Fridman
And the podcast is just like a, a fun last-minute thing I suggested.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, some, um, close friends of yours have arranged a dinner that I'm really looking forward to. I won't say which night, but it's next couple of (laughs) o- of nights. Um, you know, your circadian clock, um, is one of the mor- most robust features of your biology. I know you can be nocturnal or you can be diurnal. We know you're mostly nocturnal, um, at certain times of the year, Lex. But, um-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... but there... Very, very few people can get away with no sleep. Very few people can get away with a chaotic sleep-wake schedule, so you have to obey a 24-hour, AKA circadian, uh, rhythm, um, if you wanna remain healthy of mind and body. We also have to acknowledge that it's... Aging isn't linear, right? So, um...
- LFLex Fridman
What do you mean?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Well, I mean, you, the, the degree of change between years 35 and 40 is not going to be the degree of change between 40 and 45. But I will say this, I'm 48 and I feel better in every aspect of my psychology and biology now than I did when I was in my 20s. Yeah, uh, s- sort of quality of-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... of thought, um, time spent. Um, physically, I can do what I did then, which is, probably says more about what I could do then than what I can do now. But if you keep training, you can continue to get better. The key is to not get injured. And I, I've never trained super hard. I've trained hard, but I've been cautious to not, for instance, weight train more than two days in a row. I do a split, which is basically three days a week and the other day's a run, take one full day off, take a week off every 12 to 16 weeks. I've not been the guy hurling the heaviest weights or running the furthest distance, but I have been the guy who's continuing to do it when a lot of my friends are talking about knee injuries and talking about-
- LFLex Fridman
Hey, hey. Hey.
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Hey, hey.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'm just... (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
No, I- I... (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
But, but, of course, with sport, you can't account for everything the same way you can with fitness. And, and I have to acknowledge that. You know, um, l- unless one is powerlifting, you know, weightlifting and running, you can get hurt, but it's not like skateboarding where if you, if you're going for it, you're gonna get hurt. That's just, you're landing on concrete and, um, it... With jujitsu, like, people are trying to hurt you so that you say stop. (laughs) Um...
- LFLex Fridman
No, but it...
- AHAndrew Huberman
So with a sport, it's different. Um, and these days, I don't really do a sport any longer. Um, I work out, um, to stay fit. I, I used to, um, continue to do sports, but I kept getting hurt and, and frankly, now, like a, a rolled ankle, um, I may put out a little small skateboard part in 2024 because people have been saying, "W- we wanna see the kickflip."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'll just say, "Well, I'll do a heelflip instead," but okay, yeah, um. Uh, I might put out a little part 'cause some of the guys that work on our podcast are from DC. I think by now, I, I, I should at least do it just to show, like, I'm not making it up. (laughs) Um, and I probably will. But I think doing a sport is different. That's how you get hurt.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh...
- AHAndrew Huberman
Overuse and doing an actual sport, and so, you know, ha- hat tip to those who do an actual sport.
- LFLex Fridman
And that's a difficult decision, like, I d- a lot of people have to make. I have to make with jujitsu, for example, like, if you just look empirically, I've trained really hard for all my life in grappling sports and fighting sports and th- all those kind of stuff, and I've avoided injury for the most part. And I would say I would attribute that to, um, training a lot. Sounds counterintuitive, but training well and safely and correctly, keeping good form, saying no when I need to say no, but training a lot and taking it seriously. Now, when this training is kind of a, um, side, really a side thing, I find that the injuries, uh, becomes a, uh, a higher and higher probability. Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Oh, when you're just doing it every once in a while?
- 1:14:39 – 1:25:15
Sexual selection
- LFLex Fridman
Since we brought up Chimp Empire, let me ask you about relationships. I think we've talked about relationships.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, I only date homo sapiens.
- LFLex Fridman
Homo sapien ... (laughs) Uh, the-
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's a morning meditation.
- LFLex Fridman
The night is still young. You are human. No, but you are also animal.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
Don't sell yourself short.
- AHAndrew Huberman
No. I always say, listen, any discussion on the Human Lab podcast about sexual health or anything will always be ... The- the- the critical four is consensual, age-appropriate, context-appropriate, species-appropriate.
- LFLex Fridman
Species-appropriate. Well, can I just tell you about sexual selection? Um, I've been watching Life in Color with David Attenborough. There's a lot ... I've been watching a lot of nature documentaries. Talking about inner peace, it brings me so much peace to watch nature at its worst and at its best. So Life in Color is this series on Netflix where it, uh, presents some of the most colorful animals on earth and kind of tells their story of how they got there through natural selection. So, you know, you have the peacock with the feathers, and it's just s- such incredible colors. Like, the- the peacock has these, uh, tail feathers, uh, the male, that are like gigantic, and they're super colorful. And there are these eyes on- on it. It's not eyes, it's like eye-like areas, and- and they wiggle their ass, like, to show the tails. They wiggle the tails.
- AHAndrew Huberman
The eye spots, they're called.
- LFLex Fridman
The eye spots, yes. Thank you. You know this probably way better than me. I- I'm just quoting it from David Attenborough.
- AHAndrew Huberman
No, no, no, please continue.
- LFLex Fridman
But it was ... It- it's just I'm watching this, and then the female is as boring-looking as pos- ... Like, she has no colors or nothing, but she's standing there bored just seeing this entire display. And I'm just wondering, like, the entirety of life on earth ... Well, not the entirety. Post-bacteria. Is like, in- at least in part, maybe in large part, can be described through this process of natural selection, of sexual selection. So dudes fighting-
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
... and then women selecting. It seems like it's just ... The- the entirety of that series shows some incredible birds and insects and shrimp. They're all beautiful and colorful and just-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Manta shrimp.
- LFLex Fridman
Manta shrimp. They're just, they're incredible.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
And it's all about getting laid. It's fascinating. Like, I- I just, um ... And there's nothing like watching that and Chimp Empire to make you realize we humans, that's the same thing.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
That's all we're doing.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
And all the beautiful variety, all the bridges, and the buildings, and the rockets, and the internet. All of that is this kind ... Is- is at least in part this kind of a- a product of this kind of showing off for each other. And all the wars, and all this. Anyway, uh, I'm not-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Well, there's a-
- LFLex Fridman
What I'm asking ... Oh, relationships. Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Well, right. Um, before you ask about relationship, I think what's, um, clear is that every species, it seems, animal species, wants to make more of itself and protect its young.
Episode duration: 2:12:21
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