Anya Fernald: Regenerative Farming and the Art of Cooking Meat | Lex Fridman Podcast #203

1. 0:00 – 3:04

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Anya Fernald, co-founder of Belcampo Farms that was founded with the purpose to create meat that's good for people, the planet, and the animals, specifically treating their animals as ethically as possible. In this, she sought to revolutionize the meat industry from the inside out. She's also a scholar and practitioner of regenerative agriculture, and she's a chef who has appeared many times as a judge on Iron Chef. Plus, she has one of my favorite food-related Instagrams. On top of that, she's also a long-time friend of Andrew Huberman, which is how we first got connected. Quick mention of our sponsors: Gala Games, Athletic Greens, Four Sigmatic, and Fundrise. Check them out in the description to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that I got the chance to visit and spend a few days with Anya at Belcampo Farms in Northern California. I met many animals there, from cows to pigs, and saw the amazing land on which they grazed. I butchered meat, I watched Anya cook many amazing meals, I ate raw meat and cooked meat, and spent long hours at the bonfire talking with friends and listening to the sounds of nature. I hiked, swam in a cold mountain lake, and slept in a tent underneath the stars. It was an amazing, eye-opening experience, especially in my first ever visit to a slaughterhouse. The term "slaughterhouse" is haunting in itself. The animals I met lived a great life, but in the end, they were slaughtered in the most ethical way possible, but slaughtered nevertheless. Seeing animals with whom just the day before I made a connection be converted to meat that I then consumed was deeply honest to me. This ethical farm, Belcampo, represents less than 1% of animals raised in the United States. The rest is factory farmed. I could not escape the thought of the 40 to 50 billion animals worldwide raised in terrible conditions on these factory farms. I've spent most of my life thinking about, and being in contact with, human suffering. But the landscape of suffering in the minds of conscious beings is much larger than humans. I must admit that I still am haunted by human suffering more than animal suffering. Perhaps I will one day see the wrong in me drawing such a line. Either way, the visit to Belcampo Farms made me realize that I have not thought deeply enough about the ethics of my choices and the choices of human civilization with respect to animals. And, more importantly, I have not thought or learned enough about large-scale solutions to alleviate animal suffering. Belcampo is paving the way on this, and is the reason I wanted to show my support for their and Anya's efforts in regenerative farming and ethical treatment of animals. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast, and here's my conversation with Anya Fernald.

2. 3:04 – 4:43

   Cooking is an art and a service

   1. LFLex Fridman3:08

      (footsteps crunching) If you're watching the video version of this and are asking yourself why we're in nature right now, there's actually-

   2. AFAnya Fernald3:18

      Check out the mountain.

   3. LFLex Fridman3:19

      ... a beautiful mountain in the background. There's an incredible, vast landscape. There's a farm. We're sitting behind a table. Nevertheless, I'm, uh, wearing a suit and tie, uh, amidst nature. We're at, uh, beautiful Belcampo Farms. We're going to talk about that, this incredible place you have here. But you cooked some meat yesterday. It tasted delicious, so I'd love to talk about just the, the science and art of cooking first. You as a chef, when you think of cooking, is it a science or is it an art?

   4. AFAnya Fernald3:52

      Art and service together, probably. Uh, art to me because it's about creating something of beauty and being responsive and creating something that's expression of creativity and love. Cooking also has a very strong element of service, and it doesn't mean necessarily service to another person but, like, service to health, wellness, environment. There's an element of supporting through food in how I approach cooking.

   5. LFLex Fridman4:19

      So it's bigger than just, like, the ta- how the ingredients come together to form a taste. It's the whole pipeline. Like, the fact that, uh, there's a lot of work that, uh, went into bringing the ingredients together and then, you know, making you a... giving you the ability to make the, the meal, and then who gets to consume the meal and the whole thing. And you see that as service as opposed to just the taste?

3. 4:43 – 6:45

   Food is health

   1. LFLex Fridman4:43

   2. AFAnya Fernald4:43

      Yeah, I also think of food as one of the key ways that we interact with our environment, right? We... it's the, the part of our environment that goes inside us most visibly, right? Of course, we interact with our environment. We could have skin creams that have certain things in them or our clothes can then be absorbed. There's things in the air, there's our water, and there's food, right? It's like how we're engaging in the world physiologically. It's the most significant way we engage in our environment, right?

   3. LFLex Fridman5:10

      We're extracting resources, calories, energy from the environment in various ways in order to, uh, preserve our- our- our bodies.

   4. AFAnya Fernald5:19

      There's also so many feedback loops that I don't think we know the beginning of that our bodies are picking up on around nutrients, available nutrients, immune response. Like, there's deep levels of sensory evaluation that lead to health-

   5. LFLex Fridman5:35

      Mm-hmm.

   6. AFAnya Fernald5:35

      ... and alertness and wellness. You, you hear about this a lot, like, with babies that, you know, um, if there's a risk of an infection, that a mom's breast milk will help the baby develop a resistance. Like, there's this- this way that our bodies can tune in to health and can't extrapolate from that in any specific way, but think about that as an example of, like, the many ways in which our body's reading available nutrients in food to signal other aspects of wellness and health.

   7. LFLex Fridman6:01

      That said...The final, uh, product of cooking is, uh, when done well, is really delicious. And what we ate yesterday was really delicious. So, that aspect of it, bringing the ingredients together, the, in a way that tastes delicious, do you see that as a science or art?

   8. AFAnya Fernald6:19

      That's the art of it. I mean, the art is like creating temptation and indulgence-

   9. LFLex Fridman6:25

      (laughs)

   10. AFAnya Fernald6:25

       ... and giving people pause. You know, like, giving, creating an experience that's like so sensual. And like, I love that about when I make something really simple and beautiful and delicious, the way that, like there's that moment of silence at the table.

   11. LFLex Fridman6:39

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AFAnya Fernald6:40

       And that to me, is the moment of art, like of appreciation.

   13. LFLex Fridman6:43

       What about the build-up? I mean, we

4. 6:45 – 8:36

   Anticipation makes food taste better

   1. LFLex Fridman6:45

      got, we got to watch you make the stuff over a fire, so the, the calmness of the air. I mean, that's an experience. We don't often get to have, to see that experience of the, the prepara... It's the anticipation, like you said. Maybe that's the most delicious part of a meal, is the anticipation of it.

   2. AFAnya Fernald6:59

      That's something that I'm glad you bring up 'cause it's an element that with eating so many of our meals like out of a bag, and-

   3. LFLex Fridman7:07

      Right.

   4. AFAnya Fernald7:07

      ... you know, the instance where you start to eat the meal is when the delivery shows up.

   5. LFLex Fridman7:11

      Yeah.

   6. AFAnya Fernald7:11

      And you might smell something when you open the bag, right? And no judgment on that, that's something I do too, right? But that does take away a whole element of, of surprise and delight, and also, I think, of your body's ability to prepare for it.

   7. LFLex Fridman7:23

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AFAnya Fernald7:23

      You know, you think about our most common memories of childhood, for those of us who grew up in homes with, with parents who cooked, is smell of things cooking.

   9. LFLex Fridman7:31

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AFAnya Fernald7:31

       And it's not the eating of it, it's the smell of things cooking. So why is that so memorable? It's the anticipatory piece-

   11. LFLex Fridman7:39

       Yeah.

   12. AFAnya Fernald7:39

       ... of food. That's what you remember about your experiences of food, is the moment of like sweet anticipation of some, of this great sensual experience that's gonna be really gratifying on these emotional and physical levels. So I think we're also resonating on those memories because it's like, it's an experience of food where the sensuality of it is kind of extended. So it's a long kind of arc of build-up, and then you're eating it, and it's amazing, and then you're enjoying it, and your body feels good.

   13. LFLex Fridman8:03

       Yeah.

   14. AFAnya Fernald8:03

       So all those pieces together, it's a much more memorable experience than just grabbing the cookie-

   15. LFLex Fridman8:08

       Yeah.

   16. AFAnya Fernald8:08

       ... out of a bag, right? So look at our own, and just revisit in your mind, like the memories of food, the most compelling ones. It's the smell-

   17. LFLex Fridman8:17

       Yeah.

   18. AFAnya Fernald8:17

       ... and then the experience, and then at sometimes how one felt, right?

   19. LFLex Fridman8:21

       Yeah, and the people involved with the smell. So like, somehow it's all tied in together, whether it's family or people close to you, or even if it's just chefs. There's something about the, the personality of, of the human involved in making the food that kind of sticks with you in the memory. And

5. 8:36 – 12:47

   Lex on breaking the 72 hour fast

   1. LFLex Fridman8:36

      for me, I, I recently did a 72-hour fast, and there's a, there's a kind of sadness after you eat that it's over. I think the most delicious part was the, I went to a grocery store, and just actually walking around, and looking at food with the, like everything looked delicious. Even like the crappiest stuff looked delicious. And I, I missed that. I, I, I really enjoyed that anticipation, and then I picked out the meal, I went home, and I cooked it, and the whole thing took, I don't know, maybe two, three hours, like the whole process. And that was the most delicious part, and the first taste, of course. And then after, after it was over, there was a bit of a sadness 'cause the part I remember is the, the build-up, the anticipation. And then once you eat-

   2. AFAnya Fernald9:19

      Yeah.

   3. LFLex Fridman9:19

      ... it's over. We kind of focus on the destination, but it's the whole journey, the whole like, even if you go to a restaurant, it's the, um, the conversations leading up to the meal, and the first taste of the meal. That's where the joy is. And if you get to watch the making of that meal, that's incredible. That's where the, the smell, the visual, how the ingredients come together, es- especially as we were looking over the fire, like watching it, uh, the fire play with the raw-

   4. AFAnya Fernald9:48

      Mm-hmm.

   5. LFLex Fridman9:49

      ... meat, and you know, over time, bring out the colors, bring out the... I don't know, like you can visually associate the flavor, you know, how it becomes, um, a little bit burnt on the outside, you know, it has a crispiness to it. It starts to gain that crispiness, and immediately your past memories of the delicious crispiness of various foods you've eaten are somehow mapped into your, uh, i- immediately you start to taste it visually. I don't know, yeah, that experience is magical, and it's, and of course, maybe it's the Russian thing, but I'm almost like saddened when it's over. (laughs)

   6. AFAnya Fernald10:21

      I think fasting is gaining in popularity because we're having to relearn the importance of being hungry-

   7. LFLex Fridman10:28

      Yeah.

   8. AFAnya Fernald10:29

      ... in anticipation and delight.

   9. LFLex Fridman10:30

      Yeah.

   10. AFAnya Fernald10:32

       We have such a fear of hunger, um, and that's really, you know, functional in evolution, right? But we have this deep fear of hunger, and part of the great American experience has been that we don't have to be afraid of hunger at all 'cause there's food everywhere, and it's really cheap. In all that abundance, we've lost this edge of hunger, and we don't let ourselves get hungry, and that's one thing that I learned in part of my journey as a cook and chef has been, you know, moving abroad was the first time, when I lived out of the US, was the first time that I regularly experienced hunger-

   11. LFLex Fridman11:06

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AFAnya Fernald11:06

       ... because the time between meals was really long, and that was just what everybody did. And so, I was hungry for two hours before lunch.

   13. LFLex Fridman11:14

       Mm-hmm.

   14. AFAnya Fernald11:15

       And that was the first time in my life that there hadn't just been readily available snacks.

   15. LFLex Fridman11:18

       Mm-hmm.

   16. AFAnya Fernald11:19

       So I, I wonder if the, the intermittent fasting and part of the popularity around it, it, I'm sure there's all these amazing metabolic things that are happening, but also people might also feel better because they're really anticipating and enjoying food. And then if you look at the feelings of fullness, there's a really interesting thing that happens when you cook and your sense of fullness-

   17. LFLex Fridman11:41

       Mm-hmm.

   18. AFAnya Fernald11:41

       ... which is if you cook and you're hungry, the experience of being around the food, smelling it, touching it, sampling it, you'll take your hunger down by 40%.

   19. LFLex Fridman11:53

       (laughs)

   20. AFAnya Fernald11:53

       And this is my own observation-

   21. LFLex Fridman11:55

       Yeah.

   22. AFAnya Fernald11:56

       ... but as, I mean, we've all had the experience of cooking Thanksgiving, and the cook never kind of wants to eat that much Thanksgiving. That's an extreme experience.

   23. LFLex Fridman12:02

       Yeah.

   24. AFAnya Fernald12:03

       But when you really dive in and you're cooking for a few hours and you're smelling and smelling and smelling, it totally changes your threshold of satiety and, and fullness-

   25. LFLex Fridman12:11

       Mm-hmm.

   26. AFAnya Fernald12:12

       ... because of other sensory things that are happening.

   27. LFLex Fridman12:15

       Yeah.

   28. AFAnya Fernald12:15

       And for those of us looking to, you know, to maintain weight, and something to consider in this is that cooking is also...... part of the, part of what your appetite, when you're hungry, what are you hungry for? Right? So, we tend to think about calories. But when you're hungry, you might also be hungrier for a wider range of things, and it might be smells, it might be stopping. There's other elements, and that's something, think, as a cook, that it's, it's powerful to explore and be with and observe how your hunger changes when you're cooking.

6. 12:47 – 14:28

   Falling in love with cooking

   1. AFAnya Fernald12:47

   2. LFLex Fridman12:47

      Well, let me ask the romantic question. When did you first fall in love with, uh, cooking?

   3. AFAnya Fernald12:53

      Me falling in love with cooking was about a, a solving a problem in my family. And it had to do with my mom feeling very anxious about, uh, cooking, and overwhelmed, frequently, when it came to meals. And I'm naturally very good at juggling a lot of things, and it was just something I could dive in and help, and help my dad, who's very ... I'm very, very close to. So, it was a very, it was a very functional role where I would see this kind of crescendo of anxiety, um, around mealtimes as a kid, and would be able to dive in and, and solve things.

   4. LFLex Fridman13:35

      (laughs)

   5. AFAnya Fernald13:35

      And I also loved women, uh, who cooked. Like, I might ... Uh, my father's mother was a great cook. She was ... I remember her telling me as a kid, I, you know, I was asking her about church and why she went to church, and she's like, "I mostly go to church because I get to cook for the, for the, you know, potlucks."

   6. LFLex Fridman13:52

      Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   7. AFAnya Fernald13:52

      And so there was a, there was an openness around that, that ... But she just loved to cook for people and it was ... And there was this real tenderness and expression of that love. So, seeing women in my life who had this, like, real tenderness and love that they shared through food, and then also being able, in my own home, to kind of pitch in and add value and, and help my mom and dad was really powerful for me, 'cause I felt like I had a superpower. You know?

   8. LFLex Fridman14:18

      (laughs)

   9. AFAnya Fernald14:18

      I felt like, "Oh, man, I just made this stressful thing go away." Um, that was huge.

   10. LFLex Fridman14:23

       It's kinda interesting, I don't know if you can comment on, especially f- for me, growing up in Russia,

7. 14:28 – 17:09

   Alienation during the diet

   1. LFLex Fridman14:28

      it's probably true in a lot of cultures, maybe every culture, that food, and especially, like, in a family, the mother that cooks is the source of love, and, like, ties the family together, creates events where everyone comes together. It's, uh, it's one of the only chances of togetherness. Uh, the thing that bonds a family is, like, dinner, or food, eating together, and I don't know what to do with that. It's ... It, it ties up with, like, dieting and so on. When I was on stricter diets, especially, like, competing and cutting weight and stuff, it feel- it felt like I was almost, like, losing opportunity to connect with friends and family. It's interesting. It, it's almost like cultures ... We cannot fully experience love and family without eating. And on the flip side of that, eating enables us to experience love and family. I don't know what to do with that.

   2. AFAnya Fernald15:20

      It's a tough one, 'cause there's lots of layers around, kind of, gender roles and, um, families changing and things.

   3. LFLex Fridman15:27

      Yeah.

   4. AFAnya Fernald15:27

      I'd say I agree around the alienation. And I've done carnivore diet, and I've tried-

   5. LFLex Fridman15:32

      Mm-hmm.

   6. AFAnya Fernald15:32

      ... some of these extreme protocols, and I, too, I suffered from loneliness.

   7. LFLex Fridman15:36

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AFAnya Fernald15:36

      You know? It was like doing carnivore and, and not being able to eat what my kids ate and talk about it at the same time.

   9. LFLex Fridman15:43

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AFAnya Fernald15:43

       Th- those pieces are real, and I wonder with all of these diets if that structure is actually helping or just taking away from people's kind of central understanding. Um, but I think that there's some rigor around that that helps people discover what's good for them.

   11. LFLex Fridman15:59

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AFAnya Fernald15:59

       The ... By eliminating and then growing towards more intuitive food is a good evolution from that base.

   13. LFLex Fridman16:05

       Mm-hmm.

   14. AFAnya Fernald16:06

       I love to cook for people. I love to pay attention to their, their way of being and read what they like to eat.

   15. LFLex Fridman16:16

       Mm-hmm.

   16. AFAnya Fernald16:16

       And it's my, my purest way of love, and that's for everybody in my life. I actually love to cook for people I love.

   17. LFLex Fridman16:23

       Mm-hmm.

   18. AFAnya Fernald16:24

       You know? I don't ... I, I, I would've struggled to be, you know, putting out food all the time. It, it's like something, for me, it's a real act of caretaking.

   19. LFLex Fridman16:30

       Mm-hmm.

   20. AFAnya Fernald16:31

       So, I definitely have that in my makeup, um, and, and I definitely notice, um, in times of, like, of, of real stress, that's the piece that drops off, right? And then ... And it's like I've ... If I'm unable to care for myself, I have a hard time cooking. So, it's very-

   21. LFLex Fridman16:47

       Oh.

   22. AFAnya Fernald16:47

       For me, it's very emotional. It's very connected to love.

   23. LFLex Fridman16:51

       And individualistic. So, like, focused on the particular individual. It's almost like a, a journey of understanding what that person is excited about in the, in the landscape of flavors. Like, figuring that person out, what they like-

   24. AFAnya Fernald17:05

       Mm-hmm.

   25. LFLex Fridman17:05

       ... what they, what they love to eat. Yeah. Uh, I see

8. 17:09 – 23:14

   Cooking advice for minimalists

   1. LFLex Fridman17:09

      cooking for ... I mostly cook for myself, so I see that, oh, as almost a, uh, g- ... This is gonna be, like, the worst term, but, like, an act of, uh, self-love (laughs) .

   2. AFAnya Fernald17:18

      Uh-huh. (laughs)

   3. LFLex Fridman17:20

      Ah, this is gonna be clipped out. Um, (laughs) -

   4. AFAnya Fernald17:22

      (laughs)

   5. LFLex Fridman17:23

      ... uh, that, like, it's almost an exploration of, like, what brings me joy. And it's surprising, 'cause I usually don't share, 'cause the things that bring me joy are the simplest ingredients. Like, I'm one of those people ... I don't know if you can psychoanalyze me, 'cause you also like basic ingredients. I like a single ingredient, two ingredients, 'cause I, I feel like I can deeply appreciate the particular ingredient then. I get easily distracted. You know, people who are really good at listening to music, they can hear a piece of music and, in their mind, extract the different layers and enjoy different layers at a time. Like, the bass, the drums, the different layering of the piano, the beats, and all that kinda stuff. Th- that's what it means to truly enjoy music, to, to listen to a piece over and over, like, almost like as a scholar. In that same way, for food, I just can't do more than, like, three, 'cause then it's just ... I have to, uh, give in to the chaos of it, I guess. But when it's just the basic ingredients, like just meat, or just the vegetable, like basic grilled without sauces, without any of that-... that I've discovered is what brings me a lot of joy. But that's boring to a lot of people. (laughs) So, y- I usually have to be kind of private a- about that joy. So, but that's mine, see, I figured that out, you know. I guess, as a, as a chef, you have to figure that out about everybody that you care for.

   6. AFAnya Fernald18:41

      Well, also, for you, you're very interested in things and, and interested in things being done well and appreciating them, so the single ingredient also allows you to control for perfection in cooking that, which is probably really appealing to you.

   7. LFLex Fridman18:57

      Yeah.

   8. AFAnya Fernald18:57

      Um, and I think, sometimes, I see people also in the beginning of their journey of culinary trying to do too many things. Right? So, there's another piece too that you'll notice. If you recall last night, I grilled us a salad, right?

   9. LFLex Fridman19:10

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AFAnya Fernald19:11

       And then I did all those pieces separately, and that's something in general to be really attentive of when you're building flavor, to make sure you pay attention to every piece separately.

   11. LFLex Fridman19:21

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AFAnya Fernald19:22

       Um, you know, i- the idea that you can... okay, with a soup or something, or a stew, there's, there's workarounds. But, like, to make a great dish that's got four or five vegetables in it, cook them all separately-

   13. LFLex Fridman19:33

       Mm-hmm.

   14. AFAnya Fernald19:33

       ... to their optimal deliciousness and then combine them. So, that's another way to approach that is that you may also be able to look at the different ingredients separately and still have that sense of, like, understanding of it. But there's too often that we're layering together, like, four or five things and then cooking them all at once and then surprised that it's not delicious.

   15. LFLex Fridman19:52

       Yeah.

   16. AFAnya Fernald19:52

       'Cause you can't, you can't really optimize on multiple variables at the same time for peak awesomeness. And that's actually, you know, the, the number one way you see this is roasting a whole chicken-

   17. LFLex Fridman20:02

       Mm-hmm.

   18. AFAnya Fernald20:02

       ... which is a really difficult... it's the simplest dish, but it's very difficult because you have the breast meat, which is bigger chunks, they cook faster. You have the, the thighs and, and drums, which are, um, smaller and they cook slower. To optimize that and pay attention to it and do it all right, there, you're actually solving for different outcomes. So, there's a, there's one example, but oftentimes, food is less delicious with multiple ingredients at the start-

   19. LFLex Fridman20:25

       Mm-hmm.

   20. AFAnya Fernald20:25

       ... because we're not able to pay attention to how each one needs to end up. So, there's a way to parse that apart and achieve a better outcome.

   21. LFLex Fridman20:33

       I don't know if you've seen Jiro Dreams of Sushi. It's a documentary about... (laughs) yeah. Uh, so there's an obsession that that particular, first of all, uh, set of humans, uh, but also the particular, uh, cuisine that focus on the basics of the ingredients. Um, what do you think of that kind of trying to achieve mastery through repeating the making of the same meal over and over and over for, like, decades? Like, do you find beauty in that journey towards mastery or do you think it should be always an exploration to where you're always trying things, you're always kind of injecting new flavors, new experiences, all that kind of stuff?

   22. AFAnya Fernald21:17

       I think you have to decide on a palate. You know, if we're talking about an art, it's equivalent to saying, "Am I a sculptor or a painter?"

   23. LFLex Fridman21:23

       Yeah.

   24. AFAnya Fernald21:24

       That... The, the sushi lexicon thing, that's a very, very narrow, small canvas that you're painting on, and that is a beautiful road, right? There's, there's a, there's a beauty and a perfection to that. It's like, I mean, there's many things culturally around that that you could extrapolate for, specifically for Japan. But I, I, I encourage people on an... the journey in food to choose, like, kind of a language that they're working within. And if you wanna step out of that occasionally and have one or two dishes, but if you wanna get mastery with food, you probably aren't gonna be able to get more than, say, 20 ingredients that you use regularly that you really understand. And so, we often see, you know... I see the American pantry, it's got tons of sauces and tons of spices and tons of spice blends, and then really people only use just a couple things.

   25. LFLex Fridman22:13

       Mm-hmm.

   26. AFAnya Fernald22:13

       And the idea that you can sort of splash out and do Korean one night and then tacos the next night, you can, absolutely, but to get in a regular cadence of specific ingredients, you're probably gonna get more mastery with that sooner. And I think as much as you can do to get an understanding of the, you know, the basics around salt and acid and understand your palate, like for me, it's lemon and usually sherry vinegar, right? So, that's my acid palate. Um, and I... my fat palate's, you know, suet and butter, olive oil. So, you can sort of choose your language, what you're painting with.

   27. LFLex Fridman22:41

       Mm-hmm.

   28. AFAnya Fernald22:42

       Um, but I wouldn't splash out and say, "Do I use sesame oil?" Yeah, every once in a while, but that's not part of my base palate, right?

   29. LFLex Fridman22:47

       Mm-hmm. What, uh... can you say again what your, uh, fat palate is?

   30. AFAnya Fernald22:50

       It'd be butter, suet, and olive oil.
9. 23:14 – 26:35

   Complexity of coconut oil

   1. AFAnya Fernald23:14

      out.

   2. LFLex Fridman23:14

      What do you think about coconut oil? 'Cause there's... I, I recently discovered that there's a... I don't know, there's a sweetness or there's something to it that, that I really enjoy, um, maybe 'cause it's new. It's, it's good with heat and I really love it for some reason. As a, as a chef, do you, do you, do you ever, uh, try... what do you think about it?

   3. AFAnya Fernald23:34

      I like it in coffee. Like, I like it as a, like, a treat-

   4. LFLex Fridman23:37

      Coffee... yes.

   5. AFAnya Fernald23:37

      ... a little bit. I find the flavor a little bit challenging in foods. I also find that it's difficult, um, on the quality of that ingredient, so I've found often that I buy a high-quality coconut oil and there's rancidity in it, um, and I don't totally know why. I think it's just the cold chain in how that product's packaged.

   6. LFLex Fridman23:57

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AFAnya Fernald23:57

      So, I've had some issues with product quality in that. But I... for me, it's a little bit too much sweetness-

   8. LFLex Fridman24:02

      Got you.

   9. AFAnya Fernald24:03

      ... in my foods. Um, but then, again, I don't cook in, like, a Southeast Asian palate. I try to not have much sweetness in my foods in general, so-

   10. LFLex Fridman24:09

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AFAnya Fernald24:09

       ... I... just because of the palate that I like to cook with. So, for me, coconut's got a little bit too much of those high notes-

   12. LFLex Fridman24:15

       Mm-hmm.

   13. AFAnya Fernald24:15

       ... and earthiness, which is a nice combination, but it's more like a treat.

   14. LFLex Fridman24:18

       Yeah, it is almost like a treat. It has, it has a flavor of its own that almost stands on its own, like, I could probably just eat coconut oil. (laughs) Uh, that's probably the only oil I could enjoy by itself. It sounds weird to say, but it feels like fat is often a thing that enriches the flavor of something else. Coconut can a- almost stand on its own.

   15. AFAnya Fernald24:37

       You might also be responding to that it's a complex flavor.

   16. LFLex Fridman24:40

       Right.

   17. AFAnya Fernald24:40

       So, there's also a r- an analogous... Y- you know, if you look at butter, for example, a lot of the butter that we eat in the US is just sweet cream butter, it's not cultured. If you explore, like, a, a cultured fermented butter, um, maybe a grass milk, grass-fed and finished butter, you're gonna get a ton more complexity. And so, y- you may also just be responding to having fats with more flavor.

   18. LFLex Fridman25:04

       Mm-hmm.

   19. AFAnya Fernald25:05

       Which is, uh, they, the journey in the US has been towards refined foods that are very neutral, and then you have to combine more of them to make things taste like things. And so, if you're coming from a background of using mostly just, and generic butter, or let's say, canola oil to cook with-

   20. LFLex Fridman25:23

       Mm-hmm.

   21. AFAnya Fernald25:23

       ... those are very neutral oils. So, you can also take some of your favorite fats and look for versions of them that are more flavorful. I mean, I love olive oil as a treat in a spoon.

   22. LFLex Fridman25:33

       Really?

   23. AFAnya Fernald25:33

       Like, a good California extra-virgin olive oil. I'll just, like, have it as, I'll eat a piece of butter as a treat.

   24. LFLex Fridman25:37

       Yeah.

   25. AFAnya Fernald25:38

       Um, that's like... Or butter with salt on it. Like, good fats can, all of them can be, if they're minimally processed and, i- if they're... Fabulous, and they're so delicious, right? But there are things that you have to, like, look for a version of them that's got that full palette of flavor.

   26. LFLex Fridman25:53

       Well, for me, also, the flavors are inextricably tied to the memories I've had with those flavors. So, uh, for better or worse, back when I used to eat a lot of ice cream, I'd for some reason-

   27. AFAnya Fernald26:05

       (laughs)

   28. LFLex Fridman26:05

       ... had a lot of pleasant experiences with coconut ice cream. So, that particular flavor just permeates throughout my life. Now, like, I'm stuck with it, uh, for better or worse, as a, as a flavor that brings up pleasant memories. And there's, I have a few such flavors. I have, I have such relationship with all kinds of meat too. Like, it's just so many pleasant memories (laughs) .

   29. AFAnya Fernald26:24

       Mm-hmm.

   30. LFLex Fridman26:25

       And that's it. Y- yeah, like, you're almost tasting the memories (laughs) .
10. 26:35 – 33:18

    Anya's favorite meal

    1. LFLex Fridman26:35

       thing. What's your favorite meal to cook?

    2. AFAnya Fernald26:37

       Hmm. I, I'll roast, uh, a couple of chickens, and then I'll poach them, like, I'll boil them-

    3. LFLex Fridman26:44

       Mm-hmm.

    4. AFAnya Fernald26:44

       ... and let it cool down. It's a complicated one. Um, I'll let them cool down, I'll pull all the meat off, put the bones back into the pot-

    5. LFLex Fridman26:51

       Mm-hmm.

    6. AFAnya Fernald26:51

       ... and then cook that for, like, three or four hours, um, and then add in, like, shiitake mushrooms and all the chicken meat. And there, and I, I'll throw in a bottle of white wine into the, into the stock as well-

    7. LFLex Fridman27:02

       (laughs)

    8. AFAnya Fernald27:02

       ... a bunch of thyme and garlic.

    9. LFLex Fridman27:04

       Yeah.

    10. AFAnya Fernald27:04

        And I love it because it's a, it's the way the house smells.

    11. LFLex Fridman27:09

        Mm.

    12. AFAnya Fernald27:09

        It's very laborious. It's c- it's soothing for me to spend time picking apart meat and chopping things up. There's, like, a lot of manuality around it. Um, so I'd say from a personal, like... I mean, I love grilling a steak and doing those things as well, but there's something about making a stock from scratch, and the way it smells, the way I feel, the time it takes, the kind of checking in on it-

    13. LFLex Fridman27:29

        Mm-hmm.

    14. AFAnya Fernald27:29

        ... that I really, really love. There's many things that I love to make that I don't even love to, to eat.

    15. LFLex Fridman27:35

        Mm-hmm.

    16. AFAnya Fernald27:35

        You know, I think you see this a lot in, like, baking and bakers, people who bake a ton, and they love the process of it even if they don't eat that many baked goods. So, anything for me that's really, like, enjoyable is typically things like making cinnamon buns. I lo- I don't eat very many cinnamon buns-

    17. LFLex Fridman27:48

        (laughs)

    18. AFAnya Fernald27:49

        ... but I love making them-

    19. LFLex Fridman27:49

        Yeah.

    20. AFAnya Fernald27:49

        ... because it takes a- all the sort of, like, futzing around and taking your time and watching it, and the way it smells, the way the house smells. All of that stuff is, like, ver- it's, like, almost like a, like, a meditative exercise for me.

    21. LFLex Fridman28:01

        Is there an, a science, is there an art to cooking meat well, and the different kinds of meats? Is there something you can convert into words (laughs) in, um, to say s- ideas how, how to bring, uh, out the best of it, out of what particular meat? Whatever steak we're talking about, whatever beef we're talking about, is there something that could be said?

    22. AFAnya Fernald28:21

        The basic approach to cooking any type of meat beyond the artistry of it is pretty scientific. And it's, what type of muscle is it in the animal, and what's the surface area to volume ratio?

    23. LFLex Fridman28:38

        (laughs) Yeah.

    24. AFAnya Fernald28:38

        Okay, so let's look at those two questions.

    25. LFLex Fridman28:40

        Yes.

    26. AFAnya Fernald28:40

        So, the first piece is, what's the type of muscle in the animal? What's the functionality? You don't necessarily need to know that, um, to evaluate it. But you need to understand, is it a tender muscle that's not used very frequently in the animal, or is it a big load-bearing muscle that gets a lot of action-

    27. LFLex Fridman28:56

        Mm-hmm.

    28. AFAnya Fernald28:56

        ... like the cheek, right?

    29. LFLex Fridman28:57

        Mm-hmm.

    30. AFAnya Fernald28:57

        Or the shin, or the, those pieces?
11. 33:18 – 35:46

    Sources of heat

    1. AFAnya Fernald33:18

    2. LFLex Fridman33:18

       Is there different sources of heat to play with? Like, a big flame versus a, a small, or, uh, maybe even, like, almost no flame? Like over coals, all that kind of stuff. Is there some science to the source of heat in how it plays with the meat?

    3. AFAnya Fernald33:33

       Well, there's indirect heat and direct heat.

    4. LFLex Fridman33:35

       Yeah.

    5. AFAnya Fernald33:36

       And that really is mostly about temperature-

    6. LFLex Fridman33:39

       Okay.

    7. AFAnya Fernald33:40

       ... in more than actual... I mean, smoke is important as well, that can permeate, but really, the smoke doesn't go into the center of most cuts that you barbecue. It'll come in s- like, the smoke ring. It's, it's a, it's a, you know, it's maximum, like, half an inch on the outside, maybe a little bit deeper on a really long-

    8. LFLex Fridman33:54

       Mm-hmm.

    9. AFAnya Fernald33:54

       ... slow cook. So they, but this, the smoke, that's, does create a ton of flavor on the surface of the meat.

    10. LFLex Fridman33:59

        Mm-hmm.

    11. AFAnya Fernald34:00

        Um, but that's... So the indirect allows you to have smoke contacting it and then a very, very low and slow heat. And what that does is indirect heat will be low and slow enough that the center of the meat will get warm at the same time as the exterior of the meat.

    12. LFLex Fridman34:17

        Mm-hmm.

    13. AFAnya Fernald34:17

        And it'll all cook equally and all get equally tender. If you go very hot and fast, you risk the interior of the meat not getting... Right? You kind of create a shell on the, on it, um, and you slow down the interior of the meat, which you actually want to do with something like a steak-

    14. LFLex Fridman34:32

        Mm-hmm.

    15. AFAnya Fernald34:33

        ... where you wanna keep it rare on the inside. So, it's really indirect versus direct. Then once you get into d- direct heat, right? Like, in that category, there's wood, charcoal, gas, right? That's about it. And those are meaningfully different. They're meaningfully different. Charcoal and wood, that's more of, there's more poetry in wood. There's a little bit more flavor, not functionally very different. But gas versus charcoal wood is very different.

    16. LFLex Fridman34:58

        Mm-hmm.

    17. AFAnya Fernald34:59

        Um, and that's because of the actual scent of the-

    18. LFLex Fridman35:02

        Mm-hmm.

    19. AFAnya Fernald35:02

        ... of the cook, right? The scent of the flavor. Um, and then there's a, I think an evenness of heat distribution that comes off of charcoal that's different from gas. Because no matter how awesome your gas grill is, you do have hotter and cooler spots.

    20. LFLex Fridman35:15

        Mm-hmm.

    21. AFAnya Fernald35:16

        So, gas grills are typically, you can kinda control for that if you just are going really hot and fast.

    22. LFLex Fridman35:21

        Yeah.

    23. AFAnya Fernald35:21

        Which is why gas grills are fine if you're just, like, throwing that steak on-

    24. LFLex Fridman35:24

        Yeah.

    25. AFAnya Fernald35:24

        ... getting a hard sear on those burgers, put a crust on it. Gas is fabulous for that.

    26. LFLex Fridman35:27

        Mm-hmm.

    27. AFAnya Fernald35:27

        It's perfect. When you're doing things that do better with a low and slow cook, um, like, let's say, a whole tenderloin or chicken thigh, that's gonna be l- a little bit less elegant on gas than on charcoal versus wood.

    28. LFLex Fridman35:41

        Mm-hmm.

    29. AFAnya Fernald35:41

        So, when you have more, more kind of nuance in the low slow cook over the natural fuels.

12. 35:46 – 38:58

    Why do people freak out about barbecue

    1. AFAnya Fernald35:46

    2. LFLex Fridman35:46

       Talking about, like, smoke and flame and charcoal versus gas, it also adds to the experience and the smell and the whole thing of the cooking ver- like, versus just, like, the taste it creates. There's a certain experience to, like, when there's a bit of smoke. Maybe, I don't know what the chemistry of it is, but I feel like with smoke, the smell is distributed more effectively. I don't know if that's true. But there, there's a s- there's a smell and a visual aspect to the experience that's almost enriched with a bit of smoke. And, and, uh, or, or like an open flame-... like, if you could see the flame. There, there's a magic to that. And it goes to the ex- experience piece that we were talking about before.

    3. AFAnya Fernald36:24

       We were talking exactly about that, like, the nuance and the beauty of, like, that long, slow cook and your house smelling like something. Why do people freak out about barbecue?

    4. LFLex Fridman36:33

       Yeah. (laughs)

    5. AFAnya Fernald36:34

       Why?

    6. LFLex Fridman36:35

       Yeah.

    7. AFAnya Fernald36:35

       'Cause you go in and it smells bomb.

    8. LFLex Fridman36:36

       Yeah.

    9. AFAnya Fernald36:36

       It smells so good.

    10. LFLex Fridman36:37

        It's, smells good.

    11. AFAnya Fernald36:38

        It smells like heaven, right? It smells fatty and delicious, and the smell is everywhere and everyone's smelling the same smell, so there's, like, this collective experience. It's incredible. That's, I mean, I, I think that's why barbecue is so sticky for people.

    12. LFLex Fridman36:52

        Yeah.

    13. AFAnya Fernald36:52

        It's, like, so yummy and you get this huge, like, anticipatory thing about it. It's like, 'cause it smells incredible.

    14. LFLex Fridman36:58

        What was that incredible grill that we used yesterday? What, what is that about?

    15. AFAnya Fernald37:01

        That's called a Sea Island Forge. It's a, a wood fire grill-

    16. LFLex Fridman37:04

        Yeah.

    17. AFAnya Fernald37:04

        ... that's inspired by, like, a South American style of cooking.

    18. LFLex Fridman37:07

        So it's like, it's big, it has also the, the things with the crank that allows you to control the distance from the flame. It's awesome.

    19. AFAnya Fernald37:14

        That's really key with the wood fire. So when we evolved, um, from cooking over wood to charcoal, right? When, when that became more popular. The reason that we did that is that allowed us to skip the whole part of making our own charcoal.

    20. LFLex Fridman37:28

        Yeah.

    21. AFAnya Fernald37:28

        Right? So when you're cooking over wood, all you're doing is making your own charcoal. You don't ever cook over wood with a red fire. Like, we don't, like, throw a steak on when the flames are orange and leaping up, because you're just gonna get, you know, carbon s- like, char all over your meat. So you're, when you're cooking over wood, you first cook down the wood, you create the coal base, the natural coal base, and then you cook over that. So you saw yesterday, I built my fire. I let it burn down. I added some fresh wood so I could reinforce my coals with new coals coming in. But then, I was actually cooking over the embers. You shorten that cycle with carbon, with the, with, with charcoal. It's more, it's more efficient. But what you lose is that whole cycle of, you know, that really beautiful experience of smelling. Now, if you're cooking on a Traeger, you're gonna get awesome smoke smell. You know, like, you're, there's plenty of ways to do this. It doesn't always have to be wood fire, and I love all the different ways. Right? But, I, I really like the experience of the campfire, and I love that kind of just, like, sitting by it, building it, having to take the time. Like, building the fire, going inside, preparing all my meats, bringing them out, cooking them. That whole experience start to finish is really just, like, something that, it's my favorite, it's my favorite way to spend, spend time. You know? So I think it, and, and why is that? Is the food that different when cooking it in an, in a more conventional grill? Probably not, you know, like, in a pure experience. But I think the actual experience is super memorable, because you are outside, you are slow in your roll. You're enjoying the, this, you know, you're just taking in, you're watching, you're anticipating. I love that whole experience.

13. 38:58 – 41:06

    Does the origin of the meat itself make a difference?

    1. AFAnya Fernald38:58

    2. LFLex Fridman38:58

       Does the origin of the meat itself make a difference? So we're here at Belcampo Farms and we'll, maybe you could talk about what your vision, your dream is on, in, uh, in terms of, like, food, in terms of where food comes from, where meat comes from, but food broadly, and how that affects the entirety of the, of the culinary journey.

    3. AFAnya Fernald39:24

       S- on the question of where does it come from and does that matter, I'd say the, the way that meat is raised is massively important for flavor and for how it cooks. Um, I think most cooks who try cooking grass-fed versus corn-fed, that's the first moment where they realize that, right? Where corn-fed m- meat cooks much more slowly. It's got bigger veins of fat that slow the heat transfer throughout the muscle of the animal, um, compared to grass-fed, which is leaner, heat moves through it more quickly. Those steaks will cook much, much faster. So, there's very kind of technical reasons why, how meat is raised, uh, that we're aware of. And there's other things that I've noticed, like, um, that slower growing poultry has a very, very different musculature and fiber to it than fast-growing poultry.

    4. LFLex Fridman40:18

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AFAnya Fernald40:18

       Um, that's confinement animals. It's just, it has to do with the way that the muscles are built. They tend to be finer and thinner and more tender, um, and a little bit more susceptible to heat. So the, the character of the meat's radically different. It's also much more flavorful when it's grown more naturally. And I think some of the, the reliance in the US on, like, sugary sauces and lots of salts and flavors and things, like, that's actually based on having the broadly available meat out there is pretty low on flavor. And so we're adding in a lot to compensate for that. So to your point of, like, enjoying things very simply and, and with, like, salt and nothing else. Like, the more flavorful that product is, I think the more people will find that enjoyable.

14. 41:06 – 45:16

    What is regenerative farming?

    1. AFAnya Fernald41:06

    2. LFLex Fridman41:06

       Let's paint a vision. I mean, you're a visionary. You ha- you have a vision to have basically meat in every store that comes from a, a farm like Belcampo, that's, uh, that's basically doing regenerative farming. How do we get there?

    3. AFAnya Fernald41:24

       It's about a network of smaller producers working together, with shared values. And it's true there's a limit on regenerative farming, in that it requires more human knowledge. So regenerative farming is more difficult to scale in a single operation. It'd be really challenging to have a regenerative farm that was, like, 200,000 acres-

    4. LFLex Fridman41:50

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AFAnya Fernald41:51

       ... because of the amount of manpower needed to pay attention. So-

    6. LFLex Fridman41:54

       Can you first, and I apologize to interrupt, but-

    7. AFAnya Fernald41:56

       Yeah.

    8. LFLex Fridman41:56

       ... can you say what is regenerative farming?

    9. AFAnya Fernald41:59

       Sure. So, the, if you're looking at scaling regenerative farming, it's a traditional system of agriculture. Regenerative farming is how we used to farm. We used to farm with an eye towards the long-term. You might be on the Freedman farm thinking about your heirs five generations from now-

    10. LFLex Fridman42:22

        Mm-hmm.

    11. AFAnya Fernald42:23

        ... farming that same land.... are you going to leave that land nutritionally empty?

    12. LFLex Fridman42:28

        No.

    13. AFAnya Fernald42:29

        Okay.

    14. LFLex Fridman42:29

        Right? So, long-term thinking.

    15. AFAnya Fernald42:31

        Also, in traditional ag, you don't have inputs that are very convenient. You can put some chicken manure on, but you can't spray or dump something that massively increases the growing potential of the land.

    16. LFLex Fridman42:45

        Mm-hmm.

    17. AFAnya Fernald42:47

        That was not available until the past 60 years. So, regenerative agriculture is an approach to farming where you're increasing soil fertility through your farming.

    18. LFLex Fridman43:00

        Mm-hmm.

    19. AFAnya Fernald43:02

        You increase soil fertility by feeding the soil. You feed the soil through carbon. That's why regenerative farming is better for the environment. It sequesters carbon and puts carbon into the soil. Now, it's interesting, plants need carbon and put it into the soil when they're going through growth. So, if you have a beautiful field of grass that's just waving in the wind, that's not sequestering as much carbon as plants that have been damaged and are re-growing. Plants that have been damaged and are re-growing are repairing and they're doing that by drawing down carbon as one of the nutrients that feeds them.

    20. LFLex Fridman43:42

        Mm-hmm.

    21. AFAnya Fernald43:43

        To damage the plants effectively, that's what we're doing with regenerative grazing. So, the cows or, you know, lambs or whatever are out there, they're eating and taking the grass down-

    22. LFLex Fridman43:57

        Mm-hmm.

    23. AFAnya Fernald43:57

        ... and that then cause a re-growth cycle that sequesters carbon.

    24. LFLex Fridman44:01

        Wow.

    25. AFAnya Fernald44:01

        There's a limit to it, there's an edge, 'cause if those plants are so damaged that they can't re-grow, then it turns into a dirt patch and that doesn't sequester any carbon. So, it's a balance.

    26. LFLex Fridman44:11

        How do you find that, uh, balance? So, you, uh, that has to do with, like, the frequency and the scale of the grazing, essentially?

    27. AFAnya Fernald44:18

        Exactly.

    28. LFLex Fridman44:19

        And so you have to find the right balance and then that- that connects to the both the- the grass... I mean, is- is the ultimately, the focus here is on a life cycle of whatever's grazing, whether it's cows or lambs or so on?

    29. AFAnya Fernald44:32

        That's why the scalability question. So, all that stuff that I just talked about, like, think about all the actions-

    30. LFLex Fridman44:39

        Mm-hmm.
15. 45:16 – 49:18

    AI will be a better farmer than humans

    1. AFAnya Fernald45:16

    2. LFLex Fridman45:16

       I gotta ask, uh, I don't know if you think about this kind of stuff. I mentioned to you offline that I spent a bit of time with some robots in Boston Dynamics. Do you think there's a way to use artificial intelligence to help? So, data collection. So, automating some of the, some of the things that makes humans special, make some of that decision, some of that memory that's then utilized, converted into knowledge to make decisions about the crops and so on. Is there a way A.I. can help, do you think?

    3. AFAnya Fernald45:42

       Totally. I mean, that's- that's- that would be incredible.

    4. LFLex Fridman45:45

       That's one of the ingredients that could help with the regenerative farming?

    5. AFAnya Fernald45:48

       There's a number of discrete decision points that could completely be automated as well in order to supplement and work with somebody, like a- a farmer in managing it, about the- the- the performance on land. And a bit of that's being done right now with some aerial mapping and... But that type of A.I. would be huge in this. I mean, there's estimates that if the, um, damaged and under-utilized range land in the world was converted to regenerative agriculture, it's somewhere between, like, 20 and 40% of the world's-

    6. LFLex Fridman46:18

       Wow.

    7. AFAnya Fernald46:19

       ... carbon could be sequestered. So, there's a h- huge potential. The problem is cultural. We've, like, lost the generational thread of knowledge about how to do this. It's kind of been two generations that haven't farmed this way. Also, the science around it is limited by the scale and longevity. So, the data collection around regenerative farming is also limited by the fact it's kind of piecemeal.

    8. LFLex Fridman46:45

       Mm-hmm.

    9. AFAnya Fernald46:46

       There's small operations that are doing it. They're learning and developing it as they go, and they haven't been documenting it and doing it for too long.

    10. LFLex Fridman46:53

        Is the ethical treatment of animals a part of regenerative farming? So, in- in the way you do things at Belcampo, that's a huge part. Uh, is that necessarily part of the life cycle? So, like, the things that you're trying to measure is, like, uh, like, the way... Like- like, not damaging the land too much, make sure that the, sort of, the land is constantly healthy and it's producing, and then the grazing process, and also the carbon piece, the- the fact that it's, like, carbon neutral or something like that?

    11. AFAnya Fernald47:25

        Mm-hmm.

    12. LFLex Fridman47:25

        I mean, are- are all of those pieces of the regenerative farming or is this an extra part to your vision that you're thinking about?

    13. AFAnya Fernald47:32

        It's all implicit in regenerative.

    14. LFLex Fridman47:34

        Yeah.

    15. AFAnya Fernald47:34

        I call it out separately because we are certified humane, right, which is another layer of welfare that has to do with density and a couple other things. But regenerative, I mean, think about it, if you're a cow and you're in regenerative operation where the whole life cycle of the pasture means that you only eat the top six inches of the grass, and then when there's, whatever, a couple of inches left, then that field is left dormant-

    16. LFLex Fridman47:56

        Mm-hmm.

    17. AFAnya Fernald47:56

        ... that's a better experience, right?

    18. LFLex Fridman47:58

        Yes.

    19. AFAnya Fernald47:58

        (laughs) Okay. So, just think about it kind of functionally that way.

    20. LFLex Fridman48:00

        Well, grazing period is a better experience, right?

    21. AFAnya Fernald48:02

        Yeah.

    22. LFLex Fridman48:02

        And that's- that's not what's done in... I mean, that's the grass-fed piece, right?

    23. AFAnya Fernald48:06

        Well, that's the other piece with... You know, certified organics, amazing. There's, you know, there's plenty of certifications that, you know, grass-fed and finished is also great, but there are workarounds for those.

    24. LFLex Fridman48:18

        Mm-hmm.

    25. AFAnya Fernald48:19

        You can have certified organic feedlots. You can have grass-fed and finished which is, uh, you know, animal-fed and grass seed pellet.... those aren't things that we do here, right? And regenerative captures that because if you're, it's a, again, you think you're isolating these very specific certifications, y- doesn't have a holistic approach. Regenerative though, unfortunately, isn't certified yet. We've gotten USDA approval to use that word based on our carbon sequestration data-

    26. LFLex Fridman48:45

        Mm-hmm.

    27. AFAnya Fernald48:45

        ... but it's not a regulated term. So, that's kind of the mix right now, is to figure out how to document it. And it's not totally clear what it means, like, for pigs and chickens, which are omnivores. It's very clear for ruminants, which are animals that have a rumen, that eat grass.

    28. LFLex Fridman49:00

        Mm-hmm.

    29. AFAnya Fernald49:01

        For omnivores, which is like what we are, i- they eat primarily grain in farming operations, and that's a little bit more complex. So, it's kind of a moving landscape, but regenerative as a word is the better definition of the whole lifecycle approach of letting animals and nature work together.

16. 49:18 – 51:05

    Carbon negative farming is possible right now

    1. LFLex Fridman49:18

       Is it true that it's possible to have a farm that doesn't produce, sort of, it's carbon-neutral?

    2. AFAnya Fernald49:25

       We have been third party verified to be carbon impact negative. So, Belcampo's 25,000 acres and the animals here, they in, they, all of the carbon, including from our shipping on our mail order-

    3. LFLex Fridman49:39

       Hm.

    4. AFAnya Fernald49:39

       ... is all offset by the amount of grazing that's happening.

    5. LFLex Fridman49:43

       Okay.

    6. AFAnya Fernald49:43

       Also, that, that encompasses our partner farms. We, we buy a number of live animals in from other partner farms. That's, their impact's also incorporated in that.

    7. LFLex Fridman49:51

       I mean, first of all, that's incredible. And second of all, is that possible to scale?

    8. AFAnya Fernald49:55

       I don't see why it isn't. I mean, it's, it's complex to scale. But, uh, I mean, we're putting people on the moon and-

    9. LFLex Fridman50:03

       (laughs)

    10. AFAnya Fernald50:03

        ... like, you have a robotic dog. I mean-

    11. LFLex Fridman50:05

        But those are s- that's more, that's less about scale, that's more about innovation. So, like, in many ways, what Belcampo's done is innovative at a small scale. The question is whether that innovation can be scaled.

    12. AFAnya Fernald50:16

        That's where I feel like w- we in the industry need more help. You know, the AI piece, the intelligence, the, the, the thinking about ways to do things-

    13. LFLex Fridman50:26

        Mm-hmm.

    14. AFAnya Fernald50:26

        ... differently is where we need more support. And I think it's been a, you know, a, a kind of a, a swing in the past couple of years where it's like, "Meat's a mess. It's terrible. So let's ditch meat and, or opt for these hyper-processed, you know, plant-based solutions." And I am saying there's a way to make meatless a part of the solution.

    15. LFLex Fridman50:51

        Mm-hmm.

    16. AFAnya Fernald50:52

        And it's gonna mean eating less of it. It's gonna mean paying more for it. It's gonna mean that the farming systems are more complicated. It's not the easiest path, but I think in the long term, it's the better path.

    17. LFLex Fridman51:02

        Mm-hmm.

    18. AFAnya Fernald51:03

        And it's also better for human health.

17. 51:05 – 54:34

    Certified Humane

    1. AFAnya Fernald51:05

    2. LFLex Fridman51:05

       Can you comment on the Certified Humane piece? So, uh, how do you run a farm? Like, what does it mean to raise an animal from the beginning of its life to the end of its life in a way that's ethical, that's humane?

    3. AFAnya Fernald51:19

       I think the first piece you need to just be comfortable with is that making an animal into meat, you know, is, is something that you're comfortable with 'cause I think that's the biggest question, right? And so Certified Humane actually goes all the way through the death of the animal, how it's killed and handled at, at processing. So, I, I put that out there just to say, well, that's, you know, this is all about producing an animal to die for meat.

    4. LFLex Fridman51:43

       Yeah, th-

    5. AFAnya Fernald51:43

       And that's like, that's not necessarily, that's something people struggle with with the word humane, and I understand that. Like, I have space and empathy for that. It's a, it's a complicated decision, and one you have to be comfortable with at the outset to say, "This is an animal that's gonna die to feed me."

    6. LFLex Fridman51:56

       Yeah. So, uh, we should pause on that 'cause I actually just, uh, uh, two days ago, read a paper that argued that s- you know, the killing of an animal, period, cannot be humane. So it's impossible.

    7. AFAnya Fernald52:07

       Mm-hmm.

    8. LFLex Fridman52:07

       And so, and that's an argument just like you're saying we, we could make, but if we now on the table kind of take as a starting point the idea that it's possible to kill an animal for food in an ethical way-

    9. AFAnya Fernald52:24

       Mm-hmm.

    10. LFLex Fridman52:24

        ... if we d- take that as a starting point-

    11. AFAnya Fernald52:25

        Yes.

    12. LFLex Fridman52:25

        ... so we won't argue about that, it is worth arguing about it elsewhere, and I probably will. I will probably talk to a few vegan folks, and we'll talk about the, the vegan diet. I'm fascinated by it as well. So I'm torn in the whole thing. But if we just take that as a s- starting point, what then is an ethical, humane way to treat an animal?

    13. AFAnya Fernald52:45

        I look at ethical and humane animal treatment as the major phases of life. So, um, conception, birth and mothering, diet. Those are kind of the major touch points of life.

    14. LFLex Fridman53:00

        Mm-hmm.

    15. AFAnya Fernald53:01

        So, what we're looking at is evolutionary approach, which means is the animal eating what it evolved to eat primarily?

    16. LFLex Fridman53:11

        Mm-hmm.

    17. AFAnya Fernald53:12

        Uh, is the animal primarily outdoors, which is how all animals evolved, um, given, when the climate's appropriate for it? There are certain, you know, times when you can't have animals fully outdoors. Like, here on our ranch, we, um, have had issues with like, you know, cold weather and things.

    18. LFLex Fridman53:28

        Oh, okay.

    19. AFAnya Fernald53:28

        But, um, so if you have, if you have, you know, appropriate weather conditions, is the animal outdoors? Um, is the animal able to nurture and engage with its young? Um, those are the kind of key touch points. But it's really the, the birth of the... Let me start this one from the scratch.

    20. LFLex Fridman53:41

        Sure.

    21. AFAnya Fernald53:42

        Um, okay, so when I'm looking at, or when I, when I consider what's humane, setting aside the death part-

    22. LFLex Fridman53:48

        Mm-hmm.

    23. AFAnya Fernald53:48

        ... I look at the evolutionary diet, access to the outdoors, and ideally spending the majority of its life outdoors, low density, so animals spread out, and, um, a- engagement with young, social interactions, and that's all kind of-

    24. LFLex Fridman54:08

        Social interaction is a cool one. I mean, I, I also read an article that like, there, that like, cows, for example, have social, like, they have friends.

    25. AFAnya Fernald54:16

        Yeah, yeah.

    26. LFLex Fridman54:17

        (laughs) That's fascinating. I mean, that, that peace with the young, social interaction with the young, social interaction with each other, that, uh, at a basic level, I'm sure that interaction is not as rich as humans, but there, that, that piece seems to be part of the humane picture.

    27. AFAnya Fernald54:31

        Yeah.

    28. LFLex Fridman54:31

        And you said also, just a quick comment, uh,

18. 54:34 – 57:17

    Evolutionary diet of animals

    1. LFLex Fridman54:34

       evo- evolutionary diet, meaning the diet that they were evolved to have.

    2. AFAnya Fernald54:40

       And that's pretty simple. You can look at the physiology of the animal and figure that out. So ruminant species are lamb, goats, and beef, and they have five stomachs. They're, they evolved eating really low calorie, high fiber foods. That's why they've got all those stomachs.

    3. LFLex Fridman54:56

       Hmm.

    4. AFAnya Fernald54:56

       They need a lot of processing. You or I were to eat grass, we'd die in a week, right? We, we-

    5. LFLex Fridman55:00

       Mm-hmm.

    6. AFAnya Fernald55:00

       Our physiology can't handle it. Cows were built and evolved to eat this very low calorie, very high fiber, very low density food. And they walk around slowly, they're moving constantly, and they're eating it. When we put them on a corn-fed diet, that's the opposite of their evolutionary diet, and their systems really struggle with it.

    7. LFLex Fridman55:19

       Mm-hmm.

    8. AFAnya Fernald55:19

       Now, pigs and chickens are different. Pigs and chickens are omnivores, and pigs will happily eat chickens, for example.

    9. LFLex Fridman55:30

       Yeah.

    10. AFAnya Fernald55:30

        Our pigs on the farm will hunt and kill rattlesnakes-

    11. LFLex Fridman55:33

        Yeah.

    12. AFAnya Fernald55:33

        ... and eat them. Um, you know-

    13. LFLex Fridman55:36

        (laughs)

    14. AFAnya Fernald55:36

        ... i- i- it's, they're, they, they have to eat-

    15. LFLex Fridman55:37

        And they enjoy the, they enjoy all of it.

    16. AFAnya Fernald55:39

        They are, they're, they're omnivores. So the, you often see, and I, I've seen people try to raise, like, a grass-fed chicken, and that doesn't exist. I mean, they need a higher... Omnivores, uh, eat everything. They're what's called monogastric. They got one stomach.

    17. LFLex Fridman55:52

        Mm-hmm.

    18. AFAnya Fernald55:53

        And that one stomach needs higher density nutrients. So in the case of, um, chicken, if you were to do, you know, look back in American history, in, in the 1950s, it took, you know, commercial chickens took, like, 54 weeks to come to full weight.

    19. LFLex Fridman56:06

        Mm-hmm.

    20. AFAnya Fernald56:07

        I think now, it's two and a half weeks in a, in confinement farming. On our, in our systems, it's, like, eight to 10 weeks typically. So it's a very... You have to give them some amount of nutrient density, um, but there is a, uh, the idea that no grain, 'cause you, that's a misinformation for any type of commercial operation, free range, regenerative, pastured, everything, you're gonna have to have a grain feed to get any type of... It's actually, I think for the case of chickens, unless you're in a place with, like, tons of natural seeds and grubs and worms and stuff to eat, really challenging for the chicken. So you, you gotta give them some high density, high calorie food different from the... But the evolutionary diet is a really key thing. That's the fundamental thing for health. And it's also interesting 'cause that, the evolutionary diet ties to human health. I've looked at the nutritional analysis on, on all of our products, and it's, they... Evolutionary diet is, for the case of beef and lamb, gets, their omega-3 to 6 ratio is the same as wild game. So it's not like beef is really radically different from elk. They're ruminant species, right? If you feed beef an evolutionary diet, their nutritional profile is the same as wild meat, as wild

19. 57:17 – 1:01:13

    Neuralink can help us understand animals

    1. AFAnya Fernald57:17

       ruminant.

    2. LFLex Fridman57:18

       I got a chance to witness Neurolink. I don't know if you're familiar with that company, the brain-

    3. AFAnya Fernald57:22

       Yeah.

    4. LFLex Fridman57:22

       ... uh, brain computer interfaces. And they have... I got the chance to see in, in person just a bunch of pigs who had Neurolink chips implanted and taken out. Those pigs are so happy with life. I don't know, I've never seen a happier animal. Uh, (laughs) I mean, 'cause they get to eat. You, you, 'cause you were mentioning sort of diets and stuff. They base... Pigs seem to love a lot of stuff.

    5. AFAnya Fernald57:44

       Mm-hmm.

    6. LFLex Fridman57:44

       They're, they're eas- they're easily made to be happy. I don't, I don't know if, uh, you can comment on your thoughts of, um, of, you know, exploring the capacity of the pig mind through some of this testing with Neurolink, whether that's exciting to you, whether maybe on the humane side it's a little bit concerning, um, if there's something to be said on sort of, like... Um, yeah, on the, I don't know if it's even the ethical side, but just because of your connection to meat and to nature and understanding these living beings.

    7. AFAnya Fernald58:21

       Well, pigs are incredibly intelligent.

    8. LFLex Fridman58:22

       Yes.

    9. AFAnya Fernald58:22

       So I'm not surprised that they're a subject matter for Neurolink. Um, they're smarter than dogs, and they're empathetic and emotional. Um, and they're... We'll go look at our pigs afterwards and see, but they're, they're, they're kind of like joyful and exuberant when they're in good health.

    10. LFLex Fridman58:37

        Mm-hmm.

    11. AFAnya Fernald58:38

        And, um, so that, that makes sense. I, I'm interested in open... I feel, um, that the kind of bleeding edge l- agriculture movement that I'm, you know, on the edge of, in some ways, we're a larger operator, but we as a movement have to, we have to get into the game. We have to move forward in a way that allows us to scale if we wanna be viable.

    12. LFLex Fridman59:03

        Mm-hmm.

    13. AFAnya Fernald59:03

        So I think there has to be openness to how that can happen.

    14. LFLex Fridman59:06

        Yeah.

    15. AFAnya Fernald59:06

        And I also think there needs to be more thoughtful and noisy data about how regenerative ranching can sequester carbon.

    16. LFLex Fridman59:15

        Mm-hmm.

    17. AFAnya Fernald59:15

        I mean, thousands of am- of American ranches are selling carbon credits right now. The data is that valid. And they're not selling carbon credits from, like, grassland that's just got a fence around it.

    18. LFLex Fridman59:25

        Mm-hmm.

    19. AFAnya Fernald59:26

        They're selling carbon credits for verified data from animals assisting in carbon sequestration, right? So there's got to be a way to, to get the tech community involved in ways to help regenerative agriculture scale.

    20. LFLex Fridman59:38

        In different creative ways.

    21. AFAnya Fernald59:39

        Yeah.

    22. LFLex Fridman59:39

        And actually, yeah, that'd be interesting if, like, Neurolink somehow has, e- especially 'cause Elon Musk is involved and Kimbal Musk is, uh, like, has his whole effort and appreciation of regenerative agriculture, that I wonder if Neurolink has a role to play, like, exploring the, the neurobiology of the animal, if that somehow will create innovations that, uh, lead to, uh, improved, uh, scaling of regenerative agriculture. That'd be interesting.

    23. AFAnya Fernald1:00:08

        Mm-hmm.

    24. LFLex Fridman1:00:08

        But you, you're saying you should be open to all those possibilities?

    25. AFAnya Fernald1:00:11

        I don't think, I don't know the landscape to know what.

    26. LFLex Fridman1:00:13

        Yeah.

    27. AFAnya Fernald1:00:13

        But my sense is that it's very hard. It's very hard. And our farming operation, to scale, it's been incredibly complex and challenging. We now work with partner farms. I see their operations. They're incredibly complex. You know, it just seems like there's gotta be a way to make some of these things simpler and easier to share information.

    28. LFLex Fridman1:00:32

        Yeah.

    29. AFAnya Fernald1:00:33

        Um, I don't know what that answer, answer is.

    30. LFLex Fridman1:00:36

        A- a- you know what would be cool is if we can understand deeper ways to measure the happiness of an animal.... because then we can optimize-
20. 1:01:13 – 1:05:58

    All grass-fed meat made the same?

    1. AFAnya Fernald1:01:13

    2. LFLex Fridman1:01:13

       Uh, is there something you could say about grass-fed, um, meat? Is it all... Just out of my own sort of curiosity, whenever people say, so grass-fed meat is better for you, are all grass-fed meat made the same? Is there different, like... Le- it's like the word organic. Uh, is there a lot of variety within that, like the way Belcampo does it or the o- others do it? Just m- more color, if you could add to this whole word and what it means.

    3. AFAnya Fernald1:01:39

       Grass-fed beef has been on grass its entire life. You want to look for the words 100% grass-fed and, or grass-fed and finished.

    4. LFLex Fridman1:01:46

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AFAnya Fernald1:01:47

       Now, the challenge with feeding beef grass its whole life is that it gains weight more slowly.

    6. LFLex Fridman1:01:57

       Oh.

    7. AFAnya Fernald1:01:58

       Although beef didn't evolve eating corn and things, um, it can eat them, and in eating them, it gains weight more rapidly and has, like a version of like an, uh, an inflammatory response.

    8. LFLex Fridman1:02:11

       Mm.

    9. AFAnya Fernald1:02:12

       If you actually look inside the rumen of the animal, inside the stomach, it's like black and shiny inside compared to grass-fed animals, like green, smells like compost.

    10. LFLex Fridman1:02:21

        Mm.

    11. AFAnya Fernald1:02:21

        So, the animals themselves, their whole physiology is, is damaged by that food, but they also gain weight really quickly and they put on a lot of fat. It's like if you or me were to eat e- bunch of processed food compared to eating a bunch of greens.

    12. LFLex Fridman1:02:33

        Mm-hmm.

    13. AFAnya Fernald1:02:33

        It's the same impact. You're gonna blow up. So, the problem for grass-fed is getting the animals to gain weight.

    14. LFLex Fridman1:02:40

        Mm-hmm.

    15. AFAnya Fernald1:02:41

        They're getting a ton of exercise, they're eating really clean, (laughs) right? And they're super chill.

    16. LFLex Fridman1:02:46

        Mm.

    17. AFAnya Fernald1:02:46

        So, that's different from the animals that are kept still, eating really nutrient-dense foods and under a ton of stress, which is a confinement animal. So, are all grass-fed meats created the same? The diet, yeah, nutritional profile broadly, but the length of time that the animal lives is extremely important for the flavor of the meat. We're taking our beef to 24 to 26 months. Conventional is around 18 months. So, I'm always looking, you know, if you're evaluating grass-fed animals, you wanna get animals that are typically, uh, allowed to live for longer, 'cause their flavor's gonna be better, there's gonna be a bit more fat, um, and their omega ratio's also vary, vary differently. And I've seen omega ratios, you know, on our farm, everywhere from one to three to one to one.

    18. LFLex Fridman1:03:39

        Mm-hmm.

    19. AFAnya Fernald1:03:39

        You... Ideal is one to one. Gain is typically one to one or one to two, omega-3 to 6s. But in operations where you don't have year-round grass, it's more complicated. You know, you're feeding hay and you don't get that three to six ratio. Omega-3s come from green grass. Um, they, they're the fat in greens. And so, they're scarce and costly, right? So, you can have grass-fed and finished animals that don't have that perfect ratio 'cause maybe they're in a climate or for whatever reasons, we've had to do it too during the droughts, do hay finishing, it's not optimal, it changes the ratio a bit. So, there's a little bit of variance within it. I'd say though, the, the variance within grass-fed is still small compared to the variance between conventional and grass-fed, right? So, there's definitely things to look for within it, but the, the real difference is between those two. Also thing i- to notice is that it's not a verified word, okay? So, a l- i- grass-fed means animals that have been on grass at some point in their life.

    20. LFLex Fridman1:04:38

        Mm-hmm.

    21. AFAnya Fernald1:04:40

        The way the cattle industry is in the US, there's segmentation. So, there's cow-calf operations, there's, the- then those calves get sold to stocker operations which raise animals in their teens basically, and then those get sold to feedlots. And so, those three phases, that, that first phase of the cow-calf is always on grass. It's mother cows, and mom cows are amazing. They can thrive on anything and still put all their nutrients into their baby and their babies will be healthy. So, you never are putting mother cows on really premium pasture.

    22. LFLex Fridman1:05:12

        Mm-hmm.

    23. AFAnya Fernald1:05:12

        So, it's usually just kind of like okay pasture, dirty lo- if you ever see kind of like, you know, scrubby lots with lots of, you know, cows and calves on, that's a cow-calf operation.

    24. LFLex Fridman1:05:20

        Mm-hmm.

    25. AFAnya Fernald1:05:20

        So, there's also a worm, a, a loophole unfortunately where people use the term grass-fed and they're actually referring to animals that at some point in their life had grass, but that might be pretty far in the rearview mirror.

    26. LFLex Fridman1:05:31

        So, you need to see the, look at that, uh, grass-fed and finished or g- grass-fed 100%.

    27. AFAnya Fernald1:05:36

        That ratio of omega-3s to 6s, it changes in like a week on grain.

    28. LFLex Fridman1:05:40

        Wow.

    29. AFAnya Fernald1:05:41

        So, it's radically different. Unfortunately, it's the same thing for you and me. You could eat clean for a month, you eat, you know, junk for three days, you're garbage, right?

    30. LFLex Fridman1:05:47

        Yeah. (laughs)
21. 1:05:58 – 1:10:30

    Health benefits of grass-fed beef

    1. LFLex Fridman1:05:58

       we, so we know Belcampo and just the way sort of this regenerative farming approach of Belcampo and the Certified Humane is good for the land, is good for the animal. Can you comment on ways it's good for the human that eats the meat? Is, is this meat better for you?

    2. AFAnya Fernald1:06:16

       Yes. It's... And this is where, you know, they kind of focus on the joy and animals doing yoga and all this sort of like cynical stuff about, about this type of agriculture.

    3. LFLex Fridman1:06:27

       (laughs)

    4. AFAnya Fernald1:06:27

       They just like-

    5. LFLex Fridman1:06:28

       (laughs)

    6. AFAnya Fernald1:06:28

       ... set that aside.

    7. LFLex Fridman1:06:29

       Yeah.

    8. AFAnya Fernald1:06:29

       You know, it really is better for your health.

    9. LFLex Fridman1:06:32

       Yeah.

    10. AFAnya Fernald1:06:32

        It's got a better fat ratio, it's less inflammatory, it's got higher protein. Um, it's just better product. I m- i- in the, the case of beef, it's lower in fat...... and that fat is a better quality and it's higher, uh... And, and poultry and pork is also higher in protein. So, all the nutritionals are better. It's got higher density of vitamins, it's got higher density of minerals. And none of this stuff is radically different than... You know, it's not, not like it's... the product is, is black and white, but they're... every metric meaningfully is better in the right direction-

    11. LFLex Fridman1:07:03

        Mm-hmm.

    12. AFAnya Fernald1:07:04

        ... across the board, so why wouldn't you?

    13. LFLex Fridman1:07:06

        I hesitate to take anecdotal evidence as, like, final scientific conclusions, but it does seem... I've eaten quite a bit of Belcampo meat, for example, and it just... my body seems to respond... like, is less bothered by it, meaning, like, uh, less inflamed. I just feel better 'cause I eat, mostly eat a meat diet, and it, it does seem to be a, a little bit of a difference what kind of meat I eat, where it comes from. I don't know if that's my own psychology also. I mean, there is an aspect too, like, when you know that the meat came from a good place, in all the ways we've, we've defined good, you feel better about it and that has an effect, like decreased stress. So, I'm a huge believer in that. Like, outside of just nutrition, how you feel about the whole experience is a huge impact. But it does feel like the meat itself is actually just leading to less inflammation for me, or, like, less, like, the bloat, bloated, bloated feeling and all those negative effects that could come with meat, versus, like, certain other ground beefs that I eat, like store-bought, um, chicken breast or steak, all those kinds of things. My, my body's a little bit more, uh... works a little bit harder to process that food, it feels like.

    14. AFAnya Fernald1:08:21

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    15. LFLex Fridman1:08:22

        I don't know if there's science to that but, sort of anecdotally, that seems to be the case.

    16. AFAnya Fernald1:08:25

        Omega-6s are a big part of that, for in the case of the be-... you eat a lot of beef.

    17. LFLex Fridman1:08:28

        Yes.

    18. AFAnya Fernald1:08:28

        You love beef.

    19. LFLex Fridman1:08:29

        Yeah.

    20. AFAnya Fernald1:08:29

        And so in a conventional beef product, it's a 1:30 ratio of omega-3s to 6s.

    21. LFLex Fridman1:08:36

        Mm-hmm.

    22. AFAnya Fernald1:08:36

        And it can... sometimes 1:20 or 1:30, but that's the wrong direction. In our beef, it's, you know, as low as 1:1.

    23. LFLex Fridman1:08:45

        Wow.

    24. AFAnya Fernald1:08:45

        So, that and the omega-6s are what's part of inflammation.

    25. LFLex Fridman1:08:49

        Ah.

    26. AFAnya Fernald1:08:49

        Right? Now, you know, the, the magic in animals is that they're incredibly efficient processors, right? And in the same way that, you know, the, the, the body can protect, uh, our-... from... you know, can process and take out tons of things that are toxic out of the environment, I mean, animals' bodies can do that too. So, the beauty of meat is that it can be pretty clean, you know, things like Roundup and stuff don't end up in the meat. When we have antibiotics in our meat, we're not worried about getting, like, tetracycline from the chicken breast. What we're worried about is the workers getting tetracycline, the chicken growing faster than it should, the meat being chewier and not as high-quality, so the... but the actual antibiotics don't... the animal's great at filtering that-

    27. LFLex Fridman1:09:30

        Mm-hmm.

    28. AFAnya Fernald1:09:30

        ... right? They get that out. So, you have to think about meat not as, like, contamination of, like, "Oh, there's gonna be some of that garbage they used in the farming in my meat," um, but it's the more subtle things. It's the fat ratio, it's the protein density. And there's also, uh, just, I think, in my experience, um, there's just more complex flavor and things that taste more complex. This is, you know... science backs this up, they're, they fill you up faster.

    29. LFLex Fridman1:09:56

        Mm-hmm.

    30. AFAnya Fernald1:09:56

        So, if you're looking to limit, you know, to, to eat for fullness and but not eat as many calories, more complex foods are the way to do that. And that hit, you know, you hit your satiety, help you hit that satiety. So, things like, I mean, uh, all the key, um, you know, amino acids that help you feel full, th- they're mostly from meat, right? Um, so those are, that's part of it, like, but all meats have those. Then there's other kind of micronutrients and things around that complex flavor that help you feel full faster.
22. 1:10:30 – 1:17:58

    What does it take to be a woman CEO of a meat company?

    1. LFLex Fridman1:10:30

       What does it feel like to be a, uh... or what does it take to be a woman CEO of a meat company? I mean, you're no longer CEO of Belcampo, but you did... you ran... you co-founded Belcampo, you ran it for many, many years. What... is there something that you could say, uh, in terms of challenges associated with that and, uh, how did you personally overcome it?

    2. AFAnya Fernald1:10:54

       So, to be a female running a meat and livestock operation, I felt very alone a lot, you know, for a long time. Um, I felt very, uh... like everybody waiting for me to fail-

    3. LFLex Fridman1:11:11

       Yeah.

    4. AFAnya Fernald1:11:11

       ... or watching and assuming that I was, like, just good at marketing (laughs) or whatever else. And, and, um, so it's, it's taken me a while to not internalize that.

    5. LFLex Fridman1:11:25

       Mm-hmm.

    6. AFAnya Fernald1:11:27

       I think the only reason I've... I'm here is we have our own supply chain in Slaughterhouse, and I think had I really been playing in the broader meat industry, it would've been a shorter journey, you know? It would've been very hard to make it even get to this phase. Um, but I do... you know, I think... the mission is my life's work, the mission of cleaner ingredients that taste so amazing you don't need to do too much to them, you know? I, I like creating food that's in support of good health.

    7. LFLex Fridman1:12:06

       Yeah.

    8. AFAnya Fernald1:12:07

       And then secondary to that, it's the environment. But, like, I want healthy food to be a joy to eat, right? And, um, that, that's... you know, creating innovation in the space for this company has been about building a brand that people understand and is transparent and that people believe in in an industry that's broadly perceived of as pretty corrupt. So, those are things I feel enormously proud of. Um-

    9. LFLex Fridman1:12:33

       So, you focused on the mission and the com-... the, the pushback, all the mess-... the, of the industry. Uh, you try not to internalize it, try not to let it affect you, and focus on the mission.

    10. AFAnya Fernald1:12:44

        It's pretty hard. You know, um, I, and it's, and the joy of it, and the part where it's gotten f- fun for me has been returning to what I love about it.

    11. LFLex Fridman1:12:51

        Mm-hmm.

    12. AFAnya Fernald1:12:51

        And I've only had the privilege of doing that pretty recently. Um, so I think for me personally, you know, starting... I, I host these events on the farm called Meat Camps-

    13. LFLex Fridman1:13:01

        Mm-hmm.

    14. AFAnya Fernald1:13:01

        ... where I cook and teach people to cook and, and you know, taste and talk about flavor and all the like sensual aspects of it that I, that are my fire.

    15. LFLex Fridman1:13:10

        Yeah.

    16. AFAnya Fernald1:13:10

        Like thank goodness I did that stuff because otherwise it was just such a beating, you know?

    17. LFLex Fridman1:13:14

        Yeah.

    18. AFAnya Fernald1:13:14

        So there were parts of it where I got to feed my fire. Um, and then now in the, you know, the past year since resigning, I've been... I do all the recipe development. I shoot all the content. I, you know, taste product. I'm developing all of our new products. I launched our meatballs. I'm just about to launch our chicken meatballs. I'm doing a high protein bone broth. Like those are, that's what, why I did this was to be able to build this great product that I could build on.

    19. LFLex Fridman1:13:37

        Mm-hmm.

    20. AFAnya Fernald1:13:38

        So I'm kind of at that place now, um, but it's taken a lot longer. And I think, you know, looking at the landscape of what to do in food, this is definitely... We tackled the most complicated problem-

    21. LFLex Fridman1:13:52

        Well, so you mean just-

    22. AFAnya Fernald1:13:53

        ... that I can imagine (laughs) you know, and did it with like, in the most old-fashioned way.

    23. LFLex Fridman1:13:57

        Yeah.

    24. AFAnya Fernald1:13:57

        Right? So it's been-

    25. LFLex Fridman1:13:58

        Yeah.

    26. AFAnya Fernald1:13:58

        ... super complex and then I also look at it and I'm like, "Yeah, and it's been messy and it's gonna continue to be hard," but I'm proud of having tackled the hard problems.

    27. LFLex Fridman1:14:06

        So, so the hard problem here is not in the space of technologies. It's in the space of bringing, uh, something that we've done for a long, long time in our human history and uh, s- uh, scaling it in the face of all the other economic pressures. Like doing so successfully, also communicating to the rest of the world that this is a powerful solution so inspiring the rest of the world that regenerative farming, like running a company in this kind of way that's humane for animals, good for the land, good for people, even if it costs, like if there's an increased cost to the meat, uh, even if that... If you have a broader vision that means eating less meat overall, that that is, that is like inspiring the world that this is a future we want and just taking that on and getting that done. Uh, I got a chance to eat a little bit of cheese which uh, which is a good opportunity to talk about your experience in Italy. You spent some time... Or as-

    28. AFAnya Fernald1:15:08

        (laughs)

    29. LFLex Fridman1:15:08

        S- uh, south of Europe. I'm not sure if it was Italy?

    30. AFAnya Fernald1:15:10

        Yeah, I lived in Italy, but working there.
23. 1:17:58 – 1:21:56

    Making cheese for Italian mafia

    1. AFAnya Fernald1:17:58

    2. LFLex Fridman1:17:58

       Our mutual friend, Andrew Huberman, mentioned something offline to me about something involving the, the mob.

    3. AFAnya Fernald1:18:06

       Oh, yeah. (laughs)

    4. LFLex Fridman1:18:06

       Is there, is there something you could share?

    5. AFAnya Fernald1:18:08

       (laughs)

    6. LFLex Fridman1:18:08

       Or is this... Or, or are people going to hurt if you share this?

    7. AFAnya Fernald1:18:11

       It's, it's far enough in their rear-view mirror. I mean-

    8. LFLex Fridman1:18:14

       (laughs)

    9. AFAnya Fernald1:18:14

       ... I was hired by this group in Sicily on... And this is... You know, I was all of like 21 years old and to get a permit to work there you have to show that you have a competency that nobody else in Italy has-

    10. LFLex Fridman1:18:29

        Mm-hmm.

    11. AFAnya Fernald1:18:30

        ... and that competency for Anya Fernald at the time was cheese expert.

    12. LFLex Fridman1:18:33

        (laughs)

    13. AFAnya Fernald1:18:33

        So it's like, it was like stupid American girl being like going into the Consulate. So I already knew though-

    14. LFLex Fridman1:18:38

        (laughs)

    15. AFAnya Fernald1:18:38

        ... it was like there was something wobbly about this organization. But um, I went to work-

    16. LFLex Fridman1:18:42

        (laughs)

    17. AFAnya Fernald1:18:42

        ... for them and um, my boss from that time-... did end up in federal prison for corruption.

    18. LFLex Fridman1:18:48

        Mm-hmm.

    19. AFAnya Fernald1:18:49

        Um, many years later. Um, embezzlement, primarily. But it... So, I, I was definitely in an environment that was, um, answering to multiple masters.

Episode duration: 1:44:53