Ben Askren: Wrestling and MMA | Lex Fridman Podcast #242

1. 0:00 – 1:06

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Ben Askren, wrestler, MMA fighter, and a brilliant, opinionated, and fun personality in the world of martial arts. And yes, he occasionally likes to talk a little trash. Given his wild online antics and his boxing match with Jake Paul, some people may forget just how dominant he was in the sport of wrestling and in MMA for most of his career. In wrestling, he is a two-time NCAA Division I national champion and four-time finalist. In mixed martial arts, he went undefeated for 10 years with a record of 19 and 0 before losing to Jorge Masvidal with a flying knee that caught everyone by surprise. He's also into cryptocurrency, disc golf, and is the co-host of Flow Wrestling Radio Live. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now here's my conversation with Ben Askren.

2. 1:06 – 4:56

   Woodley vs Jake Paul boxing match

   1. LFLex Fridman1:06

      Before we talk about your incredible wrestling career, your MMA career, let me ask you. I have to ask you. What did you think about the Jake Paul versus Tyron Woodley fight?

   2. BABen Askren1:18

      Uh, well, I thought... I mean, I'm obviously biased. I thought Tyron won. Um, I had five rounds of three. A- and again, this, maybe this is my bias in the way I was seeing it. I thought he was more effective with the striking and he was more aggressive and that Jake had more volume, um, but that was the only, like, thing I would give him, and I guess a lot of people just didn't see it that way. They thought he landed more, significantly more punches. I just didn't think any of them really did any damage.

   3. LFLex Fridman1:42

      It was a split decision.

   4. BABen Askren1:44

      Split decision, yeah. Mm-hmm.

   5. LFLex Fridman1:46

      Were you surprised?

   6. BABen Askren1:48

      Um, well, here's the thing with this. So the thing I said when I went in to fight him, I said, "We don't really... Maybe he's good, maybe he's not. We have no i-... We really have no idea to this point," you know? And so I knew Tyron was a lot better at boxing than I was, and so I thought, "Okay, Tyron's... There's definitely is a good likelihood that Tyron beats him up. Um, but there's a chance that Jake's kind of good at this." And I think that's kind of what played out, is he's kind of good at it, even if you saw it the way I saw it. He still was impressive in his showing and he's obviously put a lot of time into it, so he's, he's not bad (laughs) . We'll say it that much, you know?

   7. LFLex Fridman2:23

      But isn't it surprising to you that, like, a elite level athlete, combat athlete-

   8. BABen Askren2:29

      Mm-hmm.

   9. LFLex Fridman2:30

      ... lost to somebody who just takes it really seriously, but is nevertheless not elite level?

   10. BABen Askren2:35

       Um, hmm. But, but I think boxing's a really specific rule set. Uh, so I'll speak about Tyron now myself. Tyron had, had good striking, but the... obviously, it was his first boxing match ever. Um, and within mixed martial arts, you have the, the fear of the take-down and the fear of the kick and fear of other things to go along with the punching. And so if you look at Tyron throughout his MMA career lots of times, what set up his punches were, like, level change fakes and a take-down. They dropped, boom, and then something comes over the top, right?

   11. LFLex Fridman3:05

       Mm-hmm.

   12. BABen Askren3:06

       So there's many more elements to worry about in mixed martial arts, whereas boxing there's only one. It was his first fight. Yes, I thought Tyron was gonna win. I thought that's what was gonna happen. But like I said, I mean, it's pretty evident that Jakes, he's not bad at boxing. He's pretty solid, you know? He gets in there and works hard at it, I guess.

   13. LFLex Fridman3:23

       Out of ten times, how many times do you think Jake wins?

   14. BABen Askren3:26

       Against Tyron?

   15. LFLex Fridman3:27

       Against Tyron.

   16. BABen Askren3:29

       Hmm.

   17. LFLex Fridman3:29

       If they fight again and again and again, like iterative.

   18. BABen Askren3:32

       Yeah. So I mean, I, I... Part of the thing is... Okay, so Jake's corner said, "You need a knockout going into the eighth round," right? So I think they thought... Maybe they were trying to motivate him, but I- I don't see it that way, because if they, if they were actually... thought that he was winning, why would they encourage him to take a dumb risk when Tyron has... clearly has knockout power, right? It's a really stupid coaching philosophy, if that's what you're thinking. So you obviously are thinking, "Hey, this is actually in the balance, it's competitive." Um, and I feel like Tyron thought maybe he was winning and didn't have the urgency necessary, and so I think if he... i- i- he does a chance, he turns it up a lot. Hmm. Man, I would wanna watch him again before I- I- I...

   19. LFLex Fridman4:10

       So you want, you want to see the second-

   20. BABen Askren4:11

       I have, I have this problem with my personality. Here's my personality, Lex. Um, I have an issue with not being able to give really exact answers, so I hate giving you an answer that, like, I don't feel like is 100% calculated.

   21. LFLex Fridman4:22

       Yeah.

   22. BABen Askren4:22

       So, um, I would like to see them go once more, because I would like to see, hey, can Tyron... If, if... 'cause if Tyron can turn up the pace and Jake can't handle it, then I think it's an eight-one or nine-two, right? Um, if it goes the exact same way and maybe Tyron wins a close split decision, I'm saying, oh, well, that's... it's probably going to be close every single time. We're probably gonna get a five to five type of thing, you know? So it's like, I feel like out of one match, it's not totally indicative of what the future is gonna look like.

   23. LFLex Fridman4:47

       I feel like Tyron would get a knockout, and then you would still be in the same place, like not-

   24. BABen Askren4:52

       (laughs) . Possible, it's possible.

   25. LFLex Fridman4:52

       ... not knowing, not knowing what to predict.

   26. BABen Askren4:55

       Yeah.

3. 4:56 – 7:30

   Askren vs Jake Paul boxing match

   1. BABen Askren4:56

   2. LFLex Fridman4:56

      Okay. So your fight-

   3. BABen Askren4:58

      Mm-hmm.

   4. LFLex Fridman4:58

      ... with Jake Paul.

   5. BABen Askren4:59

      Yeah.

   6. LFLex Fridman5:00

      Looking back, you have a l- had a little bit of time now.

   7. BABen Askren5:02

      Mm-hmm.

   8. LFLex Fridman5:03

      Uh, how would you analyze that fight?

   9. BABen Askren5:06

      Oh. Well, I mean, of the fight specifically, I got cracked with an overhand right, so I mean, it kind of sucks. Um, I would say, you know, and this is where everyone's like, I, I don't, I really don't care. Um, and everyone's like, "Why would you do that, ma-... It tarnishes your reputation." It's like, well, I want, I wanted to do it. I had an enjoyable time training and in the buildup. Obviously, I wasn't skillful enough to, to get the win, but i- if I... even, even despite the fact that I knew it was gonna hap- what happened, if someone asked me to do it again, I, I probably woulda done it again, you know? And so the way I always think about when I was deciding whether to do it or not, 'cause I got the offer, it's like, okay, is this money... it can change my life. Yeah, it could, right? It's not gonna double my net worth, but it's, it's gonna add significantly and make my life easier. Number two is, like, when I was in high school, we used to do boxing matches for free just 'cause we thought it was fun. When we didn't have a... something going on Friday night, me and my buddies would get together and we had some boxing gloves in my basement and we'd punch each other in the head.

   10. LFLex Fridman6:01

       Mm-hmm.

   11. BABen Askren6:01

       So it's like, for something I think is enjoyable, now they're gonna pay me a whole bunch of money, yeah, sure, I'll do it.

   12. LFLex Fridman6:07

       ... would you... do you think if you got the rematch, if you did the rematch, would you... what are the odds you win? Okay. Let's-

   13. BABen Askren6:14

       I'm not g- probably not very good. I think he's pretty good actually, and I'm not very good.

   14. LFLex Fridman6:17

       (laughs)

   15. BABen Askren6:18

       That was probably at a, at a low point for me because, uh, so when I started training for that I was like 215 pounds, which is the heaviest I've ever been. I came off my hip surgery. I literally... like, when I said, "Yes, like, I'll do it," like, I had literally started working out, like, the week before for the first time in my, you know, i- instance of surgery because I wasn't able to do anything. So, could I, could I perform better? Yeah. But now after watching him box Tyron, like, if you ask me, "Ben, can you beat Tyron?" Hm, prob- probably not. Pro- I don't, I don't think I can beat Tyron. So-

   16. LFLex Fridman6:48

       In boxing.

   17. BABen Askren6:48

       In b- in box-

   18. LFLex Fridman6:49

       Yeah.

   19. BABen Askren6:49

       Correct, in boxing, yeah. So my chances of beating him... You know, and, and (laughs) watching that card, it's like, "Damn," like, kind of be fun to box someone who I know sucks, who I know I can beat. That, that's (laughs) what would be fun, you know? 'Cause like, the training, the prep- pre- preparation was fun, but then obviously, uh, yeah, I got my butt kicked. That su- that sucked. You know? Can I swear on this podcast?

   20. LFLex Fridman7:08

       Yeah, of course.

   21. BABen Askren7:09

       Okay. Well, I was gonna drop an F-bomb. I wasn't quite sure. So... (laughs)

   22. LFLex Fridman7:11

       Okay. I, I think that's-

   23. BABen Askren7:12

       (laughs)

   24. LFLex Fridman7:12

       Sucked is a swear.

   25. BABen Askren7:13

       No, no, no.

   26. LFLex Fridman7:14

       You could, you could drop all-

   27. BABen Askren7:15

       Okay.

   28. LFLex Fridman7:15

       ... all of the F-bombs you want. So, preparation-wise, do you think you were more prepared for that fight or the, the Jordan Burroughs exhibition?

   29. BABen Askren7:26

       Uh, hm.

   30. LFLex Fridman7:27

       I mean, like, how did you approach it-
4. 7:30 – 18:44

   Jordan Burroughs and Kyle Dake

   1. LFLex Fridman7:30

   2. BABen Askren7:30

      Um, well, the Burroughs thing I, I obviously... so, okay. So when I retired the first time in 2017, Burroughs was the only current, like, we'll say, really elite level wrestler that I'd never trained with. Um, I was really good friends with him at Nebraska as his head assistant coach, still am.

   3. LFLex Fridman7:45

      Mm-hmm.

   4. BABen Askren7:45

      And I said, "Hey, I just want... I'm gonna pay my own way. I wanna come down and train with Jordan because I want to see what it feels like."

   5. LFLex Fridman7:49

      Mm-hmm.

   6. BABen Askren7:50

      You know? I want to, I want to get in there and mix it up. I've mixed it up with David Taylor and Kyle Dake. I mean, there's just something about wrestling that I love. And so I flew myself down there in January of 2018 and I spent four days training with Jordan. It was a really good time. It gave me some great insight into how he thinks and, you know, what a great champion he is.

   7. LFLex Fridman8:09

      What was it like training with him? Like, what, uh-

   8. BABen Askren8:11

      It was a lot.

   9. LFLex Fridman8:11

      Can you give some insights?

   10. BABen Askren8:12

       Yeah, of course.

   11. LFLex Fridman8:12

       Like, like what the... like, how hard is the, the live training?

   12. BABen Askren8:18

       Yeah.

   13. LFLex Fridman8:18

       Is it more drilling? Is it technical? Like, how does his... it seems like his style is very different than yours.

   14. BABen Askren8:25

       Yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman8:25

       So how does that match up in the room in terms of, like, what you learn from each other? That kind of thing.

   16. BABen Askren8:29

       Mm. We went full live for one, I think it was like a 12 or fif- 15 minute go, where it was just just go, wrestle. Um, we did a bunch of simulated live, but obviously he, he had... so I was a senior in college and he was a freshman at Nebraska, and so we had... our teams had dueled each other. He was obviously a lot smaller at that point in time. Um, but he, he had followed my career. And so when I went in there, it was like, "Hey, I know you're really good at this position. What about this position? What are you trying to do? How exactly does it work? And then let's wrestle there."

   17. LFLex Fridman8:59

       Mm.

   18. BABen Askren8:59

       You know? And then, "Hey, what about this position?" And so, you know, we would spend 30 to 40 minutes talking about that position.

   19. LFLex Fridman9:07

       On the ground or from-

   20. BABen Askren9:08

       Uh, it was like, uh, one was a chest wrap, one was a head lock, one was, uh, I don't even remember what... it's called the, we called it the lightning dump, but it's a... you hit both-

   21. LFLex Fridman9:16

       The lightning dump?

   22. BABen Askren9:17

       Yeah, it was... my name-

   23. LFLex Fridman9:17

       (laughs)

   24. BABen Askren9:17

       My buddy's name was Lightning Luke Smith in high school, and he was the first person I saw do it.

   25. LFLex Fridman9:21

       Got it.

   26. BABen Askren9:21

       So usually when I see someone do something then I name that move after them.

   27. LFLex Fridman9:25

       Got it. (laughs)

   28. BABen Askren9:25

       Um, I know, right? Great name.

   29. LFLex Fridman9:28

       It's a good name.

   30. BABen Askren9:28

       So, uh, yeah, but so what I said with that is like, okay, he was still trying to be the best in the world. I was just trying to go work out with Jordan Burroughs because I enjoy wrestling.
5. 18:44 – 23:28

   Askren vs Burroughs charity match

   1. BABen Askren18:44

      Burroughs. So, I never answered your initial question, was, uh, how did I feel... So, the Jordan Burroughs match, I was not in wrestling shape at all, meaning... Wrestling's heavily depend, especially neutral positions, heavily dependent on timing and other things. I was wrestling very, very minimally 'cause I was, I was started fighting again.

   2. LFLex Fridman19:00

      Mm-hmm.

   3. BABen Askren19:00

      So like, my, my sha- athletic shape was great, but it was mainly for fighting, I wasn't wrestling. So, um, I think they were actually trying to do Burroughs/Dake at the Beat the Streets.

   4. LFLex Fridman19:12

      Mm-hmm.

   5. BABen Askren19:12

      It's a big, it's, it's the biggest fundraiser in wrestling every single year.

   6. LFLex Fridman19:14

      In New York?

   7. BABen Askren19:15

      In New York City.

   8. LFLex Fridman19:16

      Yeah.

   9. BABen Askren19:16

      They usually raise, like, a million dollars. They started all these programs in New York City to get ... which the, the... I really wonder what they're doing with the money now, 'cause they probably can't g- have the kids wrestling because New York's crazy. Anyways. (laughs)

   10. LFLex Fridman19:26

       I, I think New York figures out a way what to do with the money. Hence, Michael Malice complaining that-

   11. BABen Askren19:30

       Yeah.

   12. LFLex Fridman19:31

       ... they're corrupt and all that ............................

   13. BABen Askren19:31

       Well, no, it go, but it goes to the Beat the Streets organization-

   14. LFLex Fridman19:34

       Oh, it does? Okay.

   15. BABen Askren19:34

       ... who then starts the clubs in New York. So I don't know what to do with the money. Anyways, so I was called, like, I don't know, two, two weeks before the event and said, "Hey, you know, someone was supposed to wrestle Jordan Burroughs, it fell out. Would you wrestle him?" I said, "Yeah, sure, why not?" (laughs) You know? And it's like, well listen, I, I, I trained with him for four days the year before. I had a pretty good idea how the match was gonna go. It wasn't gonna go so well for me. But it's like, okay, you're missing a main event, I can bring a... Because of where I'm at right now in my life, I can bring a lot of attention to wrestling. I can help you guys raise-

   16. LFLex Fridman20:06

       Yeah.

   17. BABen Askren20:06

       ... a bunch of money for Beat the Streets. My, my goals, I think, I thought I could get one take down or turn on him, was kind of my goal for the match. I didn't get there. Uh, unfortunately-

   18. LFLex Fridman20:15

       He went kind of hard.

   19. BABen Askren20:16

       He went hard. Yeah, the asshole-

   20. LFLex Fridman20:17

       Like-

   21. BABen Askren20:17

       ... wouldn't give me a point.

   22. LFLex Fridman20:18

       Yeah, that, that-

   23. BABen Askren20:19

       (laughs) I said, "This is bullshit, Jordan!" I told him during the match, like, "This is bullshit."

   24. LFLex Fridman20:23

       (laughs)

   25. BABen Askren20:23

       "You're fucking going too hard right now."

   26. LFLex Fridman20:25

       Yeah.

   27. BABen Askren20:25

       "I'm not a wrestle-, I'm not a wrestler anymore, I'm a fighter, I'm coming in here."

   28. LFLex Fridman20:28

       Yeah.

   29. BABen Askren20:28

       So, yeah, so I, I had a really good idea. I mean, we, we wrestled together. I think in, in, in, in ... and he'll probably get mad 'cause I ... I think in the live go, we did, like, the 12 or 15 minutes, I think I actually scored a take down in that.

   30. LFLex Fridman20:38

       Yeah.
6. 23:28 – 37:47

   Champion mentality and handling losses

   1. LFLex Fridman23:28

      take down.

   2. BABen Askren23:28

      Yeah.

   3. LFLex Fridman23:29

      Okay. But the incredible thing about you, I, I just, uh, recently talked, uh, spent a couple of days with Jimmy Pedro, and, uh, he talked about his guys and just champions in general hating to lose more than they love winning.

   4. BABen Askren23:45

      Mm-hmm.

   5. LFLex Fridman23:46

      And the way you talked about losing, you lost very few times in your career, like later-

   6. BABen Askren23:52

      Yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman23:52

      ... you j- you were dominating both the wrestling and MMA. But the way you took these losses against people that are-

   8. BABen Askren24:00

      Yeah.

   9. LFLex Fridman24:00

      ... I don't know, below elite level. (laughs)

   10. BABen Askren24:03

       It's fair.

   11. LFLex Fridman24:03

       (laughs)

   12. BABen Askren24:04

       I was, I was gonna get pissy, but-

   13. LFLex Fridman24:05

       N- no. I'm sorry.

   14. BABen Askren24:06

       But it's completely fair. I thought he was a bum too.

   15. LFLex Fridman24:09

       No, that's not what I meant.

   16. BABen Askren24:10

       (laughs)

   17. LFLex Fridman24:10

       Oh, now I'm in trouble.

   18. BABen Askren24:11

       It's okay. (laughs) No, it's good.

   19. LFLex Fridman24:12

       No. No, no.

   20. BABen Askren24:13

       Um ...

   21. LFLex Fridman24:13

       No, no, but, like, what ... can you explain the psychology behind that? Like, the, what-

   22. BABen Askren24:18

       Yeah.

   23. LFLex Fridman24:19

       Is, is there a system behind this? Is there a philosophy behind this?

   24. BABen Askren24:22

       Well, so I, I wasn't very good ...... in the beginning. And I think, I think that's where it all starts from. So, I didn't start getting good until the age of like 13. I started at five. I probably started competing more at age 10, 11. Didn't really get good til 13 and still at 13 I'm, I'm, it's not even great. I'm getting better, right?

   25. LFLex Fridman24:41

       Mm-hmm.

   26. BABen Askren24:41

       I'm pretty good. Um, so actually I've, actually have, I have, writing this book on sports psych, but there's f- it's I got, well, I got someone to write it for me kind of thing, uh, 'cause I've had this philosophy for years that there's, there has to be this balance between two things, right? So, o- on the one hand, in th- in this category, on the one hand you have hating to lose. A great champion has to hate to lose, like you said, right?

   27. LFLex Fridman25:01

       Yeah.

   28. BABen Askren25:02

       But on this other hand, you have to have someone who seeks out challenges, right? 'Cause if you don't have that, you're never gonna reach your full potential either.

   29. LFLex Fridman25:10

       Mm-hmm.

   30. BABen Askren25:10

       And so you have to balance these two balls at the same time, right? And so, like, for me, I always, and m- and this is maybe 'cause I wasn't good, but I was always like, "Let me go find the best people to wrestle." All the time. "Let me go find..." I, I would like literally, uh, like seventh or eighth grade when I was starting to get better, it was like, and this was when there was no internet, well, uh, there was... No one was using the internet. It was like a wrestling magazine. And be like, "Hey Dad, there's a tournament here. I think that... Are the kids gonna be there? Can you take me two hours across the state today, please?"
7. 37:47 – 47:17

   Future interest in competition

   1. BABen Askren37:47

      get into.

   2. LFLex Fridman37:48

      Oh, you might do exhibition matches, all that kind of stuff, right?

   3. BABen Askren37:52

      Says who?

   4. LFLex Fridman37:53

      Wrestling and stuff. No?

   5. BABen Askren37:55

      Uh, I don't think so. So here's my thing with the wrestling matches is like, just for fun, if you said, "Hey, Ben, just for fun-"

   6. LFLex Fridman38:01

      Yeah.

   7. BABen Askren38:02

      "... would you love to go wrestle someone?" Yeah. I, I would, I would, right? I love, I love wrestling. I get in there. I lo- you know what I love? Like, so one of my guys has gotten to be pretty good. He's in college. He go... Keegan O'Toole. He just won a junior world title this year. And so when, when I'm doing private lessons, I have such a thing about the development of the athlete. Sometimes I can wrestle hard, but most of the time it's like, I'm just gonna help them with whatever they need help with. And it's still wrestling and it's fun, but it's helping them. You know, for like, for Keegan comes back this summer and he's training for the general title. So to be able to just shake hands sometimes and say like, "I'm gonna try to kick your ass." Make sure you try to kick my ass. You know, like just to go like...

   8. LFLex Fridman38:37

      Yeah, it's a good feeling.

   9. BABen Askren38:38

      It's so much fun. And I don't get to do that very much. So if you said, "Ben, would you love to do some matches?" And the answer is yeah, the problem unfortunately for me, and maybe you can talk me off a ledge here, is like because of where I've gotten to my career, if I choose to do a wrestling match, it's gonna... people are gonna be really excited about it. It's gonna blow up and it's like, I just want to wrestle just to wrestle. I'd rather just like go in a room where no one can watch and just wrestle and just en- enjoy it.

   10. LFLex Fridman39:02

       Well, you could also wrestle... So there's different kinds of wrestling. There's wrestling where there's an event.

   11. BABen Askren39:07

       Mm-hmm.

   12. LFLex Fridman39:08

       And like, you know, there's a buildup and an announcement.

   13. BABen Askren39:11

       Yeah.

   14. LFLex Fridman39:11

       And you can also do like, uh, Khabib style, like in the room there's cameras and you're kind of going... It's like-

   15. BABen Askren39:18

       Wait, Khabib does that?

   16. LFLex Fridman39:20

       No, he, in uh-

   17. BABen Askren39:21

       Marcel does that. He whooped my ass a few times.

   18. LFLex Fridman39:23

       Yeah, exactly.

   19. BABen Askren39:24

       Yeah.

   20. LFLex Fridman39:24

       I mean, I've seen Khabib, some videos.

   21. BABen Askren39:26

       Okay.

   22. LFLex Fridman39:26

       It's not like set up, it's just people going hard and then it's more fun.

   23. BABen Askren39:30

       Yeah.

   24. LFLex Fridman39:31

       You know, and it's, it's also more like presenting the beauty of the sport.

   25. BABen Askren39:37

       Yeah.

   26. LFLex Fridman39:38

       You know?

   27. BABen Askren39:38

       For sure.

   28. LFLex Fridman39:38

       And, and like, and there's no winning or losing really-

   29. BABen Askren39:41

       Yeah.

   30. LFLex Fridman39:41

       ... in that context.
8. 47:17 – 58:05

   Askren's early career

   1. BABen Askren47:17

   2. LFLex Fridman47:17

      So like you said, you weren't very good in your early days-

   3. BABen Askren47:21

      Yeah.

   4. LFLex Fridman47:21

      ... until 13, 14. What was the switch? You became... you started to dominate people.

   5. BABen Askren47:26

      Um-

   6. LFLex Fridman47:27

      And then in your college career, you dominated.

   7. BABen Askren47:28

      Yeah.

   8. LFLex Fridman47:30

      And, uh, obviously you, you stopped losing at some point. (laughs)

   9. BABen Askren47:33

      Yeah. So, uh, well I was abe- so even when I didn't lose in collegiate competition, I, I would go in the summers and try to make the World Team, so I would lose some. Not a lot, right? Minimally. Um, okay, so when I'm five I start playing all sports like m- I... I know you moved to America at what age?

   10. LFLex Fridman47:51

       13.

   11. BABen Askren47:52

       Okay, so fi- so in, in... at, at least... I don't know what it was for you, but in America at my age, you usually played like a sport every season, right?

   12. LFLex Fridman48:00

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   13. BABen Askren48:00

       So that's what I did in the beginning. Um, I had minimal success in wrestling and I was kinda chunky, and then... And in fifth grade, I don't... so I... and I can't... I can't tell you... it's... I s- I wanted to be better and I told my parents that... and this is funny 'cause now I look at other 11-year-olds and very few of them are this mature, and I actually think emotional maturity is kinda one of the key indicators of how long-term successful someone's gonna be. At age 11 I said, "I don't wanna play baseball." And I liked baseball but I don't wanna play baseball 'cause I wanna wrestle more 'cause I want to get better at wrestling. So age 11, I quit baseball so I could wrestle in a club for March, April and May, 'cause that, that was... that was all that existed at that point in time. You couldn't wrestle in June, July or Aug- any of those other months. Um-

   14. LFLex Fridman48:37

       What was that desire to get better? What is it? So it's not about what-

   15. BABen Askren48:40

       I don't know where it came from.

   16. LFLex Fridman48:41

       Okay.

   17. BABen Askren48:41

       I just wanted to get better. I wanted to get be- I wanted to be good at this. I wanted to be really good at this.

   18. LFLex Fridman48:45

       So when you're looking at kids now as a coach, you're looking for that. Somebody who can says-

   19. BABen Askren48:50

       Yeah.

   20. LFLex Fridman48:50

       ... "You know what? I kind of suck. I want to get better."

   21. BABen Askren48:52

       And I, and I, and I want to try to also inspire that. I, I mean, honestly, I think, I think as a coach, that's probably my, my biggest job is to get a kid and get them to believe "I can do this." Because if I can do this, what can't I... I can, I can do that. I can do that too, right? And there are so many kids who unfortunately have like shitty parents or bad teachers that tell them, "You suck. You can't be anything." Right? So I think my biggest goal as a coach is to get someone to believe they can do it. So actually some of the ones that believe they can do it, they're the most fun, but they're not the ones who need it, need it the most, right? The ones who think they can't are the ones that need me the most.

   22. LFLex Fridman49:28

       Yeah.

   23. BABen Askren49:28

       They need someone to, "Let's go." Um, so I don't, I don't know. And, and what inspired me, I'm not sure. So age f- uh, age 11, in fifth grade, I quit. I started... So then I started having more success, you know, where I'm like say placing at the state tournaments. Um...

   24. LFLex Fridman49:43

       In high school?

   25. BABen Askren49:44

       Uh, so y- you, right. Fifth, sixth... So sixth grade, I placed at like the state, local, youth state tournament, you know. So I'm like having more success. Um, seventh grade was the first year I won the youth state tournament, um, so I'm getting better. Eighth grade, I actually feel like I got pretty good, but like when I went to the national tournaments, I was still having really minimal success. My freshman year, I decided to quit football, same reason. It's like, well, I need to put more time into this. My parents... We got... My dad luckily got a mat in my basement, so you know, there's no y- so we have a year-round club and our impetus was that we didn't have this opportunity to go to a club year-round.

   26. LFLex Fridman50:16

       Mm-hmm.

   27. BABen Askren50:16

       So we had a mat in my basement. I had to go find... "Hey, you wanna c- you want to come wrestle?" Like, "Oh, yeah," and find partners for myself.

   28. LFLex Fridman50:22

       What did you do? Did you drill? Did you, uh, live wrestle? What did you do in that basement?

   29. BABen Askren50:26

       Um, so actually, I think y- you'll enjoy this. I think the start of my scrambling was, was kind of based around that. So I got kind of... I think it was probably my freshman, sophomore... I'm kind of... The years are a little fuzzy right now as well.

   30. LFLex Fridman50:40

       Yeah.
9. 58:05 – 1:12:46

   Robots wrestling

   1. LFLex Fridman58:05

      Uh, I mean, this is exactly what, uh, OpenAI and deep, uh, DeepMind at Google are, uh, y- I don't know if you've seen, but there's something called reinforcement learning in artificial intelligence where-

   2. BABen Askren58:15

      Yeah.

   3. LFLex Fridman58:16

      ... you have like, they, they've done it for like Sumo wrestling.

   4. BABen Askren58:19

      Oh, really?

   5. LFLex Fridman58:19

      You have, you have like, you, you have these two stick figures that don't even know how to get up at first and they figure out how to stand on their two feet.

   6. BABen Askren58:28

      Mm-hmm.

   7. LFLex Fridman58:28

      And then they figure out how to push the, the other person off of the, the, the pedestal or-

   8. BABen Askren58:33

      Wait, so... But what about like, uh, when you look at the, the Boston Dynamics robot? Sometimes they have trouble with like jumping and balancing and the other stuff.

   9. LFLex Fridman58:41

      Yeah.

   10. BABen Askren58:41

       So are they, are they doing that same program or no?

   11. LFLex Fridman58:43

       No, no, no, no. This-

   12. BABen Askren58:45

       It's different?

   13. LFLex Fridman58:45

       Uh, the, uh, everything Boston Dynamics is doing, uh, is hardcoded. So it's not, um, it's not learning the... All the sophisticated movements and strategies, like high level strategies and movement, that's all something that Boston Dynamics does not do. And if it does it, like the parkour stuff, that's all hardcoded in.

   14. BABen Askren59:05

       Oh, interesting.

   15. LFLex Fridman59:06

       Like, people like project and think like these robots have like discovered like how to move in sophisticated ways. They haven't. It's m-

   16. BABen Askren59:14

       Well, that's what, when you and John were talking about the, the grappling robot.

   17. LFLex Fridman59:19

       Yeah.

   18. BABen Askren59:20

       I mean, the one thing I was, I was obsessing about in my head is that with the chess, right? If a chess piece moves, right? Uh, the horse can move like an L, right? It can only move like an L. It doesn't matter if it moves at two meters per second or seven meters per second. It can only mo- it can only move there, right? Whereas like a single leg, I can shoot a single leg with many different velocities.

   19. LFLex Fridman59:43

       Mm-hmm.

   20. BABen Askren59:43

       I can shoot it at different angles. I can shoot it with different amounts of force, right? I can shoot it with my, my head up versus my head, I mean, right? All these things are gonna matter. If we're talking about a, a human being defending the single leg, all of those things are gonna matter. And, and that's where human beings are, uh, who wrestle are calculating those things subconsciously. They're obviously not consciously calculating in their head, "Oh, the, the force is coming at me at this, so I need to do that."

   21. LFLex Fridman1:00:07

       Yeah.

   22. BABen Askren1:00:07

       Right? They're just doing it because...

   23. LFLex Fridman1:00:08

       It's feel... But see, the, the thing is, so you would absolutely, if you're doing a robot that you're wrestling, you're going to have to constrain the speed at which it moves and the power that it's able to, uh-

   24. BABen Askren1:00:18

       Yeah.

   25. LFLex Fridman1:00:18

       ... deliver. So that presumably, that'll be the limitation. So then it'll be just the same exactly as a human.

   26. BABen Askren1:00:24

       But then, but it's ... so if we go human max force, right? Jordan Burroughs double max force, right?

   27. LFLex Fridman1:00:30

       Mm-hmm.

   28. BABen Askren1:00:30

       That's the highest, that's the highest we get. And then we go down from there.

   29. LFLex Fridman1:00:33

       (laughs)

   30. BABen Askren1:00:33

       Um, even, even with, even within that, it's like-

Episode duration: 2:15:27