Lex Fridman PodcastChris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator | Lex Fridman Podcast #364
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,052 words- 0:00 – 0:59
Introduction
- CVChris Voss
... the crazy thing in the kidnap business. We used to get asked by FBI leadership, "When is this gonna be over?" And the answer would be, "When the bad guys feel like they've gotten everything they can." Now, dissecting that statement, you're talking about when they feel like they got everything they can. So the key to kidnapping negotiations are the feelings-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CVChris Voss
... of the bad guys. We're talking about feelings, kidnappers' feelings.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
Which drives everything. Doesn't matter what human endeavor it is.
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Chris Voss, former FBI hostage and crisis negotiator, and author of Never Split the Difference: Negotiating as if Your Life Depended on It. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here's Chris Voss.
- 0:59 – 6:50
Negotiation
- LFLex Fridman
What is it like negotiating for a hostage with a kidnapper? What is the toughest part of that process?
- CVChris Voss
The toughest part is if it looks bad from the beginning, and you gotta en- engage in a process anyway.
- LFLex Fridman
What are the factors that make it bad? What... That- that makes you nervous that if you were to observe a situation where there's general negotiation or it's a hostage negotiation, what makes you think that this is going to be difficult?
- CVChris Voss
If they wanna make it look like they're negotiating but they're not. Like, in the 2004 timeframe, um, Al-Qaeda in Iraq was, uh, executing people on camera for the publicity, and they wanted to make it look like they were negotiating. So, they'd come on and they'd say, "If you don't get all the women out of... uh, Iraqi women out of the- the jails in Iraq in 72 hours, we're gonna kill the hostage." That was one of the demands in one of the cases in that timeframe. Now, first of all, even if we'd have been willing... the US government, the coalition would have been willing to do that, it wouldn't have been able to happen in 72 hours. So, it was an impossible ask from the beginning. And so then- then that looks really bad. Like, they're- they're trying to make it- they're trying to make it look like they're talking reasonably, uh, but they're not. So, your hostage is in bad shape there if they've made a demand that you just... even if you wanted to do, you couldn't do. Uh, so then what makes that very difficult is, in kidnappings especially, you're working with family members. You're coaching people. Bad guys are in touch with family members, or if they're not directly in touch with family members, the other thing that Al-Qaeda was doing at that time was they didn't give us a way to talk to them. They're make- they're making statements in the media, but then not leaving their phone number, if you will.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
So, that's one more thing, like, they're intentionally blocking you. They're asking you to do something you can't do. They're not giving you a way to talk to them. So, you gotta get with the family and discuss with the family how you're gonna approach things. Now, the family definitely wants to know, is this gonna help? There's a bunch of cases like that in that timeframe. And you gotta be honest with them. It's a long shot. Our chances here are slim or none. And when it's slim or none, I'll take slim, but it's still very, very slim. And there were a number of people that were killed in that timeframe before the tide finally got turned, and it was- it was hard dealing with the families at the time.
- LFLex Fridman
Can you negotiate in public versus, like, a direct channel in private?
- CVChris Voss
Oh, yeah. Bad guys pick the media. They're making statements in the media. So the... And that's a big clue. Their- their chan- their channel of choice tells you an awful lot. And if they're choosing the media, then that means there's people they're trying to appeal to. That means, in their view, there's such a thing as good media. So, if there's good media, there's bad media. How do you make it bad? And we made it bad for them. It just, unfortunately, it had to go through a number of iterations before they got the message and quit.
- LFLex Fridman
In that negotiation, do you think about the value of human life? Is there a dollar figure? Is there... How- how do you, uh, enumerate... not enumerate, quantify the value of human life?
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, that's, uh, uh, it's like beauty. It's in the eye of the beholder. So, that was the first lesson on any hostage negotiation, really any negotiation. Like, it doesn't matter what it is to you. It matters what it is to the other side. One of the things, especially in your... in your conversation I listened to with, uh, Andrew.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Um, by the way, you guys, uh, I- I... Another thing I really liked about that conversation, first of all, I think the world of him.
- LFLex Fridman
Andrew Huberman.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, Andrew Huberman. And, uh, you released it on my birthday.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CVChris Voss
I appreciate that. That was a nice birthday present to me.
- LFLex Fridman
I tried to time it perfectly just for you, yeah.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, nice job. Thank you.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CVChris Voss
But, uh, empathy is in the eye of the beholder, uh, in every negotiation, whether it's over a car, a house, collaboration in your company with the bad guys. How does the other side see it? Now, the nice thing about kidnapping for ransom, if there- if there's an actual ransom demand, it's an actual demand, is it's a mercenaries' business. They're gonna take what they could get. And they tend to be really good at figuring out how much money somebody has. So, uh, uh, and again, I'll keep drawing business analogies. You're looking for a job with an employer. There's a market price of the job, and then there's what the employer can pay you. Now, maybe the market price of the job market is 150 grand. The employer can pay you 120. But it's a great job. You know, we were talking about Elon-
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- CVChris Voss
... uh, a minute ago. Like, I'd work minimum wage to follow him around.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
You know, that would be worth it. What- what are the value other than the dollars?
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And how hard is it to get the dollars? And how quickly can you get to them? Those are- these are all things that the bad guys are good, in kidnapping, are good at figuring out. So......the value of human life to them is gonna be, what can they get? A crazy thing in the kidnap business, we used to get asked by FBI leadership, "When is this gonna be over?" And the answer would be, "When the bad guys feel like they've gotten everything they can." Now, dissecting that statement, you're talking about when they feel like they got everything they can. So, the key to kidnapping negotiations are the feelings-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CVChris Voss
...of the bad guys. We're talking about feelings, kidnappers' feelings.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
Which drives everything. Doesn't matter what human endeavor it is.
- 6:50 – 21:45
Reason vs Emotion
- LFLex Fridman
I sh- I should say, for a little bit of context, I just talked, uh, yesterday with a guy named Sam Harris.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
I don't know if you know Sam, but Sam ... A- and because I was preparing for a conversation with you, I talked to him about (laughs) empathy versus reason.
- CVChris Voss
Uh-huh.
- LFLex Fridman
And he lands heavily on reason.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Empathy is, um, somewhere between useless and erroneous, and leads you astray, and is not effective. That reason is the only way, uh, f- forward.
- CVChris Voss
Well, let's draw some fine lines there. And the, the two fine lines I would draw is, uh, first, what is your definition of empathy? And then secondly, uh, how do people actually make up their minds? And I'm, and I'm gonna flip it. I'm gonna go with how people make up their minds. You make up your mind based on what you care about, period. That makes reason emotion-based. What do you care about? You start with what you care about. You see some guy swimming out in, off the coast of the ocean, and you see a shark coming up behind him. Who are you cheering for? If it's Adolf Hitler out there, you're cheering for the shark. You might actually feel bad for the shark 'cause it's gonna, it's gonna taste bad. Who do you care about?
- LFLex Fridman
You mean the human will taste bad? (laughs)
- CVChris Voss
Yeah. H- he, h- he, you know, if you eat Adolf Hitler, you know, that's gon- gonna leave a bad taste in your mouth-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
...even if you're a shark. So, you're making up your mind on every circumstance that's based on what you care about.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
So, then what does that do to reason? Your reason is based on what you care about from the beginning. Now, then empathy. If you define it as sympathy, which it was never meant to be sympathy.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Ever. You know, I've ... Uh, etymology, I think, is the word. I keep getting etymology and entomology m- mixed up. Etymology being that, right, the, the, you know, where words came from.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
The origin. Entomology being bugs.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Got it.
- CVChris Voss
Right? So, I like etymology. Where did something come from? I also like entomology. Anyway, uh, etymology. The orig- my understanding from my research, uh, the original definition of empathy was an interpretation of a German word where people were trying to figure out what the artist was trying to convey. It was about assessing art. And so it was always about understanding where somebody was coming from, but not sharing necessarily that same thing. So then when I was with the FBI and I first started collaborating with Harvard, Bob Minookin wrote a book, Beyond Winning. Second chapter is the tension between empathy and assertiveness. Still the best chapter on empathy I've ever read anywhere. And Bob writes in his book, Bob was the head of the program on negotiation. He's also, uh, agreed to be interviewed for a documentary, uh, that's about me and my company. That hasn't been released yet, but it should be released sometime this year.
- LFLex Fridman
What's the name of the documentary?
- CVChris Voss
Tactical Empathy.
- LFLex Fridman
Good name.
- CVChris Voss
So, Bob's definition of empathy in- he said, "Not agreeing or even liking the other side." Don't even gotta like them. Don't gotta agree with them. Just straight understanding where they're coming from and articulating it, which requires no agreement whatsoever. That becomes a very powerful tool, like ridiculously powerful. And if it, if sympathy or compassion or agreement are not included, you can be empathic with anybody. I was thinking about this, uh, when I was getting ready to sit down and talk to you 'cause you use the word empathy a lot.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Um, Putin. I can be empathic with Putin easy. It's easy. I don't agree with where he's coming from. I don't, uh, agree with his methodology. Early on in the Ukraine-Ru- Russian war, I saw an article that was very dismissive of Russia that said, "Russia's basically Europe's gas station." And I thought, "All right. So if you're in charge and the way you feed your people is via an industry that the entire world is trying to quit, the whole world is trying to get out of fossil fuels, if that's how you feed your people, if you don't come up with an answer to that, the people that you've taken responsibility for are gonna die alone in the cold and the dark. They're gonna freeze and they're gonna die." All right? So, that doesn't mean that I agree with where he's coming from or any of his means. But where- where- where is ... How does this guy see things in his distorted world? You're never gonna get through to somebody like that in a conversation unless you can demonstrate to them you understand where they're coming from, whether or not you agree. Early '90s, last century, I'm a last century guy. I'm an old dude.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CVChris Voss
I refer to myself as a last century guy. Also, a deeply flawed human.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
So, um, terrorist case, New York City, civilian court. Terrorism does not have to be tried in military tribunals. Mili- that's a very bad idea. It was always bad. The FBI was always against it.I'm getting ready... We have Muslims testifying in open court against a legitimate Muslim cleric. The guy that was on trial had the credentials as a legitimate Muslim cleric. The people that were testifying against him didn't think he should be advocating murder of innocent people. We'd sit down with them, Arab Muslims, Egyptians mostly, and I would say to them, "You believe that there's been a succession of American governments for the last 200 years that are anti-Islamic." And they'd shake their head and go, "Yeah." And that'd be the start of the conversation. That's empathy. You believe-
- 21:45 – 30:35
How to listen
- LFLex Fridman
How do you truly listen to another human being? How do you notice them? How do you really hear them?
- CVChris Voss
I always hated the term active listening. If anything, it's proactive.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And as soon as you start to try to anticipate where somebody's going, you're dialed in more. Um, because along the way, either you're congratulating yourself for being right or when suddenly they say something that surprises you, you really notice it. Like, "That's not what I expected." You're dialed in, you're listening. So it's, it's proactive. And then one of the reasons, you know, we named the book Tactical Empathy, um, name the, name of the book, Never Split the Difference, but we're talking about tactical empathy.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Uh, calibrated emotional intelligence. What's it calibrated by? First, it was experienced as hostage negotiators, but... And we've come to find out that our experience as hostage negotiators is backed up by neuroscience. Another reason why I listen to Andrew Huberman's podcast all the time. Heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy on the neuroscience.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And so then emotional intelligence calibrated by what we know about neuroscience. What do we know about neuroscience? And I'll talk about it from a layman's perspective and, uh, and... To even say we as an arrogant thing, you know, human beings. I, I didn't do the research. I'm s- scooping up as much of it as I can as a layman. The brain's largely negative. I think there's ample evidence. People would w- argue with you as to what the wiring is and what does what, and the limbic system and all of that, but the brain is basically 75% negative. As an, a layman, I make that contention, number one. Number two, the best way to deactivate negativity is by calling it out. And I could say, "Look, I don't, I don't want you to be offended by what I'm getting ready to say." That's a denial. Your guard is up, you're getting ready to get mad. If I say, "What I'm getting ready to say is probably gonna offend you," now you relax a little bit and you go, "All right, what is it?" And then I say it, whatever it is, and you're gonna be like, "Oh, that wasn't that bad." Because we knew from hostage negotiation, by calling out the negativity, deactivate it, and then a number of neuroscience experiments have been done right and left by calling out negativity deactivating the negativity.
- LFLex Fridman
... co- calling out ahead of time, so like acknowledging that this is, the, that this is go, ahead of time that this is going to hurt.
- CVChris Voss
The experiments that I've seen, um, have been when the negativity was inflicted and then having the person that it was being inflicted upon simply identify it.
- LFLex Fridman
Just identify it.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah. What are you feeling? "I'm angry." And the anger goes away.
- LFLex Fridman
It's tough because I've had a few, um, and again, we're dancing between things, but I've had a few conversations where anger arose in the guest I spoke with.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And I'm not sure identifying it, (exhales sharply) that, that, that's like leaning into it and going into the depths. 'Cause it, that's going to the depths of some emotional psychological thing they're going through that I'm not sure I want to explore that iceberg with the little ship we got. I, I, um, it's, uh, you have to decide, do you want to avoid it or do you want to lean into it? It's a tough choice.
- CVChris Voss
It's the elephant in the room.
- LFLex Fridman
It is an elephant in the room.
- CVChris Voss
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
It is an elephant, (laughs) especially when I think that's the big difference between conversations and negotiations. Negotiation ultimately is looking for closure and resolution. I think general conversations like this is more exploring. There's not necessarily a goal. Like, if you were to put a, like, if I had to put a goal for this conversation, there's no real goal. It's curiously exploring ideas. So that'll, gives you freedom to not call out the elephant (laughs) for, for a time. You can be like, "All right, let's go to the next room, get a snack, and come back to the elephant."
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CVChris Voss
All right. So I, I'd, I'd make a tiny adjustment on the negotiation definition.
- LFLex Fridman
Sure.
- CVChris Voss
'Cause you said, I think, um, seeking closure. Um, you, you used two words and closure was one of them.
- LFLex Fridman
Goals may be another. Well, yeah, what is, what, what is negotiation?
- CVChris Voss
Well, I would say seeking collaboration and 'cause closure kind of puts a little bit of a finality to it, and the real problem in any negotiation is always implementation. That's why we say yes is, I say, we, yes is nothing without how. And, and yes at it's, at it's very best is only temporary aspiration. It's aspirational. It's usually counterfeit.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CVChris Voss
So if you're looking for... huh?
- LFLex Fridman
That's a good line. Yes is usually counterfeit. It's aspirational without the how.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- 30:35 – 32:43
Negotiation with terrorists
- LFLex Fridman
Let me just, to return briefly to terrorists. Uh, what do you think about the policy of not negotiating with terrorists?
- CVChris Voss
Well, that's not the policy, first of all. Now, everybody thinks that's the policy.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
It hasn't been a policy since 2002 when Bush 43 signed a National Security Presidential Directive, NSPD. At the time it was NSPD 12, which basically said, um, "We won't make concessions. That doesn't mean we won't talk." So I'm in Columbia at the same time, and I had been intimately involved with the signing of... Him signing that document. I knew exactly what it said, and I... And he didn't inherit it from somebody else. He signed it. And I'm in Columbia, and the number two in the embassy says, "Last night on TV, the president of the United States said we don't negotiate with terrorists. Are you calling a president of the United States a liar?" And I remember thinking, like, "All right, so-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CVChris Voss
... he probably said that.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And that's not on the document that he signed. So I said, "Look it, you know, I'm familiar with what he's signed, and it... That's not what it says." "Well, you know," and so the argument, but that's always been the sound bite that everybody likes. "We don't negotiate with terrorists." Depends upon your definition of negotiation. If it's just communication, we negotiate with them all the time, number one. And number two, like, every president has made some boneheaded deal with the bad guys.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Like, Obama released five high-level Taliban leaders from Guantanamo in exchange for an AWOL soldier that we immediately threw in jail. And I thought that was a horrible deal, and that wa- that's putting terrorists back on the battlefield. And then Trump turned around and topped it by putting 5,000 terrorists back on the battlefield. So we haven't had a president that stick- has stuck to that on either side of the aisle since people started throwing that out as a sound bite.
- 32:43 – 34:21
Brittney Griner
- CVChris Voss
- LFLex Fridman
What do you think of that negotiation? Forget terrorists, but the global negotiation, like with, with Vladimir Putin, the recent negotiation over prisoners, the exchange, uh, Brittney Griner. Is there a way to do that negotiation successfully?
- CVChris Voss
First of all, I, I agree with the idea that she was wrongfully detained and that she hadn't... and she didn't deserve to be in jai- jail, and that the US govern... There should be no second-class citizens ever. And whether you're an EM- a WNBA player or you're just some bonehead that walked into the wrong situation, your government should not abandon you ever. Ever. Now, what they do, um, in the meantime, um, there should've been a negotiation. They were desperate to make a deal at a bad time. They'd been offered far better deals and prisoner swaps earlier and turned them down. And then the heat gets turned up, and thank God for Brittney Griner that, um, the public got enough attention that it kept pressure on the administration and they made a deal. Now, if governments wanna make those kinda deals, that's fine as long as it... 'Cause that was basically a political negotiation. You're putting 5,000 Taliban back on a battlefield. That ain't negotiating with another government. You're putting five of them back on a battlefield. That ain't negotiating with another government. That's directly contradicting this thing that you claimed, and those were all bad deals. Now, the... Was the Brittney Griner thing a bad deal? I think it was great for her. If I was in the middle of it, it would've been better and she still would've come home.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, there's some technical aspects of that negotiation. What do you think is the value, just to linger on it, of meeting in person for the negotiation?
- CVChris Voss
I think it's a great idea.
- 34:21 – 41:41
Putin and Zelenskyy
- CVChris Voss
- LFLex Fridman
Can I just, just follow that tangent along? There's a war in Ukraine now. It's been going on over a year. It's, uh... For me personally, given my life, uh, stories, is, is, uh, is a deeply personal one, and I'm returning back to that area of the world. I was there. Uh, Volodymyr Zelenskyy said he doesn't wanna talk to, uh, to Vladimir Putin. Do you think they could get in a room together? And, uh... Say you were there in a room with Putin and Zelenskyy, and Biden is, uh, sitting in the back drinking a cocktail or maybe he is at the table participating. How, how, how is it possible through negotiation, through the art of conversation, to find peace in this very tense geopolitical, uh, conflict?
- CVChris Voss
I think it's eminently possible. I think the... Getting people together in person has always been a good idea. Now, how many time... Who's getting them together, under what circumstances, and how many times are you getting them together? The, um, the documentary The Human Factor about the Mideast peace negotiations-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
... mostly through the '90s, mostly into the Clinton administration, got kicked off, uh, under Bush 41. And then the documentary continues through Trump, but just touching basically on it. But they're getting Arafat and, and the different Israeli prime ministers together in person. And these guys did not wanna talk to each other, and depending upon the prime minister, you know, the, the mere thought of being on the same planet with Arafat was offensive. And they started getting these guys together in person regularly, and they started seeing each other as human beings.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
And they started realizing that there was enough room on the planet for them and that people dying was stupid.... and they w- and they would slowly work things out by getting these guys together in person. So, how long does it take? Who's hosting it? But it's a good idea.
- LFLex Fridman
But the skill of, uh, achieving that thing that you talk about a lot, which is empathy, and I would say in that case, not just empathy but empathy plus a b- you might disagree with this, but a, a drop of compassion in there.
- CVChris Voss
I think compassion, compassion is helpful, um, but it's not essential. Like, if, if you just know where I'm coming from, like, it, it, it t- the thought, the feeling of being understood-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. Heard and understood. That's powerful.
- CVChris Voss
... is, yeah. And, and, again, I know I picked a vast majority of this up on, on Andrew's, um, podcast, but I've picked it up in other places 'cause early on when we were putting a book together with Tal Raz, uh, the writer, uh, my son, uncredited co-author, so the book's really a co- uh, collaboration between me, my son Brandon, and, and Tal Raz. And we're driving for that's rights, you know? When somebody feels like what you've said is completely their position, they say, "That's right." Not, "You're right," but, "That's right." So Tal says, you know, "I think, I think what's happening here is you're triggering a subtle epiphany in somebody." So I'm like, "All right. I'll buy that." So I start looking up the neuroscience of, of the feeling of epiphany. Getting a hit of oxytocin and serotonin. Oxytocin is a bonding drug. You bond to me. I don't bond to you. When you feel completely understood by me, you bond to me. Then in one of the relationship podcasts that I'm listening to on, on Andrew, um, it says oxytocin inclines people to tell the truth. You're more honest. All right, so you feel deeply understood by me. You bond to me.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And you start getting more honest with me. Serotonin, the neurochemical of satisfaction. Epiphany, you feel oxytocin and serotonin being understood. All right, I got you bonding to me, I got you being more honest with me, and I got you feeling more satisfied so you want less. What more do you want out of a negotiation?
- LFLex Fridman
Of course, there's already with, uh, leaders and great negotiators, there's a, wall is built up. Defense mechanisms against that, right? There's, you're resisting. You're resisting this basic chemistry. But yes, you should have that. Um, you should work towards that kind of empathy. And I, I personally believe, I, I, I don't actually understand why, but I've observed it time and time again, but getting in a room together and really talking, whether privately or publicly, but really talking. Uh, and like this, so I'll- I'll- I'll comment on this. So right now, this is being recorded, and a few folks will hear this. But when you really do a good job of this kind of conversation, you forget there's cameras.
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
And that's much better than there being even a third person in the room, but often when, um, world leaders meet, there's, like, press or there's others in the room.
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
Like, eh, as, you know, man to man or man to woman, you have to, like, meet, like, in, like, in a, in a saloon, just the two of you, and talk. There's some intimacy and power to that, to achieve the, the... if you're also willing to couple that with empathy, to really hear the other person.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, yep, yep, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
I don't know what that is. That's like a deep, deep intimacy that happens.
- CVChris Voss
And I, I think there's actually... 'cause we get asked this in the Black Swan group all the time, like, how do you... you know, Zoom, that's bad, you know? 'Cause you don't have the same visual feedback on Zoom.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
And that's not true. Like, you and I, I see you from the waist up right now. If we were on Zoom, I'd be looking at you from the waist up. Compl-
- LFLex Fridman
I'm not wearing pants, yeah-
- CVChris Voss
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
... for the internet. I apologize for that. (laughs) Sorry. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You only see a s- a small portion.
- CVChris Voss
(laughs) Usually I... yeah, that's usually where I go. But, uh, anyway.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) I'm glad we're both that ridiculous ............................
- CVChris Voss
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
I appreciate it.
- 41:41 – 48:52
Donald Trump
- CVChris Voss
I'd go in a room with Putin.
- LFLex Fridman
You would go in a room with-
- CVChris Voss
I would, yeah, 1,000%. I'd get a "That's right" out of him.
- LFLex Fridman
"That's right." Well, first you would give him a "That's right" probably.
- CVChris Voss
Ah, getting a given. There's a... see, see, the... and h- here's the issue that trips everybody up in negotiation. The difference between hearing and speaking the same words are vastly different. And what I'm looking for is what I'm g- the responses I'm getting outta you. 'Cause if you, if you can't... first, "That's right" especially, like if you can't appreciate what that really means, hearing it is unsatisfying.
- LFLex Fridman
So those two words are really important to you. You talk about this in your book.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
What is, why is that s- what does "That's right" mean? Why is it important?
- CVChris Voss
Well, it means that what you just heard you think is unequivocably the truth.... like, it's dead on. It hit the target. It's, it's a bullseye. And, uh, this has been a topic of discussion, especially between my son and I a lot, like what happens? This oxytocin bonding moment. And he, i- his contention has always been like Donald Trump is the poster child of what it means. Because Donald Trump's gonna address an audience, you know, he's, he's in a debate with Hillary or he's giving a speech some place, and when the people that are devoted to him, when they believe that he, what he's just said is completely right, it's insightful, they look at him or they look at the TV and they go, "That's right." And it's a, it's what people say when they're bought into what they just heard. Now, if you're not convinced of the way that Donald Trump's followers are bonded to him, and he, he also just like this... in my view, destroys the idea of common ground. Because when he first started to run for president, the pundits all said, "Ah, he's a New Yorker. Nobody in the Republican Party is gonna like him." It's Middle America, you know, it's blue-collar, you know, it's regular common folks, factory workers. "They're not gonna like Trump 'cause he's from New York and he went to Wharton, he's an Ivy Leaguer and he's a son of a wealthy real estate mogul, and he had a million dollars handed to him when he got out of college. He, you know, he was born with a silver spoo- spoon in his mouth. The rank-and-file Republicans are never gonna accept this guy," based on common ground. Look how, look how smart that was.
- LFLex Fridman
Do you think he's a good negotiator? Do you think Donald Trump is a good negotiator?
- CVChris Voss
Uh, no. I think he's a great marketer. If you look at his negotiation track record... All right, so I started following Donald Trump in the '80s when I was in New York. I'm a last century guy, he's a last century guy. We got mutual acquaintances. The minister that married him to Marla Maples was a friend of mine in, a close friend of mine. And in 1998, I threw a fundraiser in his apartment, at Trump Tower, that he attended. So, um, no shortage of mutual friends, we went to the same church, still have mutual, mutual acquaintances, friends. And, and I've watched his track record, negotiation history, which is exactly his track record with North Korea. Where are we with North Korea? What was the deal that he made with North Korea? See, your, your answer is the same as everybody else's. "Well, I remember it started out with a lot of fanfare-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
... but I don't know what happened." 'Cause nothing ever happens.
- LFLex Fridman
It's more public fanfare, so marketing-minded presentation ........................
- CVChris Voss
Starts out with a bang. If he doesn't cut the deal in a short period, a really short period of time, he moves on and everybody wonders what had happened because there was so much fanfare at the beginning. Now, at the beginning, him even opening that dialogue with North Korea was masterful. Like I was, I was such a fan. When you got a president of the United States that is willing to sit down and talk with a leader of another nation, when every other president, all their advisors are saying, "The leader of North Korea is beneath you, you cannot dignify him by responding to him directly." And consequently, the Trump administration inherits a can of worms that has been simmering for 30 years. He didn't get us into that. And he, and he opened up a dialogue when nobody else was capable of opening a dialogue, and then it just went away. Nobody knows what happened. And there was no deal made. Now, great negotiators make deals.
- LFLex Fridman
What do you think about these accusations that he's a narcissist? That if you're a narcissist, does that help you or hurt you?
- CVChris Voss
Is there a more popular term these days than narcissist?
- LFLex Fridman
Ev-
- CVChris Voss
Like, everybody's a narcissist.
- LFLex Fridman
Everybody you don't like is a narcissist.
- CVChris Voss
Like the homeless guy down on the corner, he's a narcissist. That's why he's there.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. It's lost meaning for you a little bit?
- CVChris Voss
Yeah. A- and first of all, most psychological terms, as a hostage negotiator, and really, uh, we were never into psychology, and we steered away from it, 'cause psychology is, at best is a soft science. If it's not informed, these days, if it's not informed by real studies or, um, neuroscience. The guys that I'm impressed with these days are psychologists, neuroscientists. Now, I wanna... I'm, I'm interested in that, that, that guy or gal. But then, the psychology convention, do you get them all together and they all agree?
- LFLex Fridman
No.
- CVChris Voss
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
But also, the interesting thing about psychology is each individual person is way more complicated than the category psychology tries to create. And there's something about the human brain-
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
... the moment you classify somebody as a narcissist or depressed or bipolar or insane in any kind of way, for some reason, you don't... you s-... you give yourself a convenient excuse not to see them as a complicated human being-
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... to empathize with them. I had that when I was talking to... I, I did an interview with Kanye West, and then there's a lot of popular opinions about, um, him being mentally unwell and so on.
- 48:52 – 53:06
When to walk away
- LFLex Fridman
th- the, is there something about walking away, of not negotiating? Is that, is there power in that?
- CVChris Voss
All right, so it depends upon whether or not, uh, you're doing it with integrity or a tactic to start with. Um, and then also, uh, hostage negotiators are successful 93% of the time, kind of across the board, which means that the 7% of the time it's gonna go bad. And that was my old boss, Gary Noesner. I learned so much from Gary. But one of the, a phrase that he used over and over and over again until I finally worked a case that went bad was, "This is gonna be the best chance of success, best chance of success." And then something went bad, and I remember thinking like, "Well, best chance of success is no guarantee of success." So your question is, are there negotiations you should walk away from? Is th- if you got no ch- shot at success, then, then don't negotiate. And there, you have to accept the fact there's some deals you're never, you're never gonna make. You know, we teach in my company, it's not a sin to not get the deal. It's a sin to take a long time to not get the deal.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And, you know, Gary, in his infinite wisdom, you know, they, they realized that there was something called suicide by cop, and that it might have... Gary was very much into clusters of behavior. He kept us away from psychological terms, and there would be clusters of behavior-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
...that would be high-risk indicators, and he, and he wrote a block of instruction called High-Risk Indicators, which meant if you start seeing this stuff show up, this thing's probably going bad, and you're gonna need to, you're gonna need to recognize that from the very beginning and adjust accordingly, and it's the same way in, in business and personal life. I'm, I'm talking to the head of a, a marketing company I have tremendous respect for. I admire that what this guy and his company does. Started from scratch. He w- he borrowed space in the back of a drugstore to start his company, and now it's hugely successful, and he's laying out to me that he finally had to confront, um, a potential client and walk away from him. And he said, "How do you think I handle this?" And my answer was, "1000% correct, and as a matter of fact," the behavior that he indicated, he's a type, "and you should have walked away sooner than you did because this guy was playing you the whole time." Al-Qaeda, 2004, they're playing us. They're not negotiating. We need... We called them out on it. "We don't think you're negotiating." He wouldn't say it exactly like that, but that was, that was absolutely the approach. You know, confront people on their behavior in a respectful way.
- LFLex Fridman
And signal that you're willing to walk away.
- CVChris Voss
And mean it, 1000%.
- LFLex Fridman
And mean it. Isn't that terrifying? I mean, it's scary 'cause you don't want to really walk away, or do you have to really want to walk away? (laughs)
- CVChris Voss
Well, yeah, this, this gets core values, your view of reality. If it's an abundant world, it's not scary to walk away. If it's a finite world with limited opportunities, then it's horrifying.
- LFLex Fridman
But you have to, uh, use that worldview to be willing to actually walk away.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
It could be walking away from a lot of money. It could be walking away from something that's gonna hurt people 'cause if you lose a hostage.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, well, but if they're not gonna let the hostage out-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
... suicide by cop, they ain't letting them go.
- LFLex Fridman
The 7%, how do most negotiations fail?
- CVChris Voss
The bad guys were never there to make a deal in the first place. If, if it was suicide by cop, if they were there to... if they were on a killing journey... It's an Israeli phrase. Um, if they're on a killing journey and the actions that they are currently engaged in are part of that killing journey.
- LFLex Fridman
Killing journey.
- 53:06 – 1:00:45
Israel and Palestine
- LFLex Fridman
Is there advice you can give about, you mentioned, uh, Israel, Palestine, the Middle East, taking on a few conversations on that topic, is there hope for that part of the world? And from that hope, is there some advice you could lend?
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, I thi- I think, I think there's hope. There's... and I got friends on both sides, and, um, also when I got my... After I left the FBI, um, most people listening to this pr- probably not gonna remember who Rodney Dangerfield was.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, come on.
- CVChris Voss
But he's a comedian.
- LFLex Fridman
He still doesn't get any respect. Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, yeah, and, and, uh-
- LFLex Fridman
New Yorker? Is he a New Yorker?
- CVChris Voss
I think he was a New York guy.
- LFLex Fridman
Or like Jersey or something, yeah.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, and, um, he did a movie a long time ago called Back to School.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
He went back to school as an old guy, Back to School.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
So I went back to school after I left the FBI. I did get, um, a master's at Harvard Kennedy, and that's where, you know, I'm running across people on both sides of that.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And when they could talk, they said, "Let's start from the premise that we... both sides want a better life for our kids," which is this version that I was telling you, um, earlier from Tom Girardi. Let's pick a point in the future-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
...that we're both happy with, and they found that they could talk. You know, we... All right, so it might not be better for us. How do we make it better for our kids? And tha- that's where the, the hope derives from because I think both sides ultimately want it to be better for their kids, which is why...They still engage in interactions, and which is why I think the leadership, regardless of how compromised they might be on either side... There are few straight players in the game in the Middle East, or anywhere for that matter. Um, but they want a better future for their kids. You get people to agree that you want a better future for your kids, now you can start talking about, "Well, how do we work our way back from that?" And then, all right, so we got a mutual point in the future. The Israeli-Palestinian negotiations are also, uh, for me, interesting 'cause you mentioned Clubhouse. About almost two years ago now, um, when Israeli- Israel was shelling Gaza, they hit the UPI office. (inhales deeply) You know, they were hitting... They, they got fed up with the rocket attacks from Hamas. And of course Hamas is putting rockets in the UPI office or the AP office, whichever press office it was there. How's that office gonna be there otherwise? Hamas is running the show. You're not, you're not gonna run that office unless they let you- unless you let them store weapons there. That's just part of the game. And they're- and where- are they gonna, are they gonna store them in specially designated ammunition dumps? No. They're gonna put them in schools, they're gonna put them in hospitals, they're gonna put them in all places that when Israel hits them, they're gonna look really bad. So, after a while, Israel gets fed up and they start shelling Gaza and they're hitting these places. Friend of mine, Nicole Benham, is, um, hosting rooms on Clubhouse and she says, "You gotta come on. The vitriol is killing me."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
"These are all turning into screaming matches. Nobody's talking to anybody." I said, "All right, cool. We'll go on. We'll, we'll do it and, uh, and watch. We won't have a single argument. We'll invite people on from both sides." The on- there was one rule. Before you started to describe what you thought of the other side, you had to say, "Before I disagree with you, here's what I think your position is." And you gotta continue to state the other side's position until they agree that you've gotten it. (inhales deeply) Now, what happened? No agreement and no arguments. That was what we were really going for. We wanted to show that people on both sides, in one of their emotional time frames, if your only requirement was you had to state the other side's position first, nobody got out of control.
- LFLex Fridman
Did it work?
- CVChris Voss
That's exactly what happened. Not one... We wanted to show people that you can have conversations that do not devolve into screaming matches, with vitriol, talking about how you're dedicated to the destruction of the other side. Just first, see if you can outline where they're coming from.
- LFLex Fridman
That's really impressive because I've just, having seen on Clubhouse, people, which part of the reason I like Clubhouse 'cause you get to hear voices from a- all sides, they were emotionally intense.
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
It was, uh... I mean, I was, I'm, I'm sweating just in the build-up of your story here. I thought it was gonna go to, go to hell. But you're saying it kinda worked to make it.
- CVChris Voss
Not one person lost control. Uh, of the, of the two sides, the people that were speaking on behalf of the Israelis were a little better-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
... at articulating, uh, supportive positions for the Palestinians. Most of the people who want to speak up on behalf of the Palestinians, they just, they, they'd, they'd want to start in like, "You're doing this," and I'd say, "No, no, no, no. You can go there, just not yet."
- 1:00:45 – 1:06:15
Al-Qaeda
- LFLex Fridman
What's the toughest negotiation you've ever been a part of, or maybe observed or heard of? What's a difficult case you... just stands out to you? Or maybe just one, one of many.
- CVChris Voss
Well, the, uh, the stuff we went through, uh, with Al-Qaeda, um, in and around, uh, Iraq, Iraq and, uh, Saudi. First one was in Saudi, 2004 timeframe. The hardest part about that was working with family members and not deceiving them about the possibility of the outcome.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. How do you talk to family members? Is that part of the (laughs) negotiation?
- CVChris Voss
Yeah. Empathy. Learning empathy the hard way, and then being able to take it up to, to higher levels. 'Cause at its base level, um, a guy that we're working with now that's coaching us in the US and is a business partner, his name is Jonathan Smith, he pointed out to us that there's kinda... there's this Shu Ha Ri concept. Have you... Are you familiar with Shu Ha Ri? It's a martial arts concept. And Shu is, um, do it exactly as the master is telling you to do it. Wax on, wax off. Karate Kid stuff.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Uh, Ha is when you've done the reputat- repetitions enough times, you're getting a feel for it, and you begin to see the same lessons coming from other masters. You're seeing the same things show up in other places. And at the Ri level, you're still in the discipline, but you're making up your own rules. It's almost a flow state.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And you don't realize that you're making up your own rules. And if somebody asks you where you learned that, you probably say, "I..." You know, "My, my sensei taught it to me. My master taught it to me." Um, this will come back around to negotiating with families pretty quick. We did this once because there, there's a bunch of people that we coach, um, businesspeople that are scared of the amount of money that they're losing if we're not coaching them regularly. One of these guys, Michael, we're interviewing him for a social media posting about two years ago, and Michael says, "Yeah, you know, you gotta gather data with your eyes." And I remember th- and I went, "Woo. I like that." I said, "Where did you hear that before?" And he goes, "I... You know, I don't know. I heard it from you, I think." And I'm like-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CVChris Voss
... "No, no, no, no, no." I didn't remember saying that.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
For... That's that first time I've heard that. He's in Ri. So what's this got to do with families? Empathy at its base level in the Shu level, I learned it on the suicide hotline, is saying, like, "You sound angry." I'm just calling out the elephant in the room. Your, your emotions, what's driving you. I'm throwing a label on your affect, and I'm saying, "You sound," or, "It sounds like you are," 'cause that's the basic Karate Kid wax on, wax off approach. Now, there are a lot of hostage negotiators that'll tell you empathy doesn't work at home. Not true. They've never gotten out of Shu.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
You're getting ready to talk to your significant other, and you wanna go someplace that you know it's gonna make her angry. You wanna go do something.
- LFLex Fridman
Now, that's real negotiation right there.
- CVChris Voss
You could say to her, "You sound angry." And i- in which case she's gonna blow up, 'cause her reaction is, "You made me angry, Bozo. How do... Can you act like you're an innocent third party, or that you were independent of how I feel bad?" And you learn, learn a little bit more, and you say, the, the Ha level is, "This is probably gonna make you angry." And then, what I did with families, I knew how they felt before I walked in the door. I knew that they were scared to death. You find out that your, your, your husband, your father, your brother has been grabbed by Al-Qaeda, who are in the business of chopping people's heads off, you're gonna be horrified. I can't walk into them and go like, "You sound angry." "Of course I'm angry, you idiot." But knowing what they are, I used to walk into families' houses and I'd say, "I know you're angry." Now, what do... Now, what do the circumstances dictate that they should also feel? They're gonna feel abandoned by their government. They're gonna feel totally alone. They're gonna be scared, and they're gonna be angry, because they feel their government abandoned them. Now, there... In point of fact, is this an accurate statement? That their loved one voluntarily went into a war zone and voluntarily went someplace their government told them not to go. Are the facts that the government abandoned 'em? Absolutely not. As a matter of fact, the government warned 'em, tried to get 'em to not go, and they went anyway. But that doesn't change how they felt in the moment. And I'd, I'd walk into a house and I'd go, "I know you're angry. I know you feel abandoned and alone, and I know you're horrified, and I know you feel the United States government has abandoned you." And they would look at me and go, like, "Yeah. What do we do now?" Now we're ready to rock.
- LFLex Fridman
(sighs)
- 1:06:15 – 1:14:40
Three voices of negotiation
- LFLex Fridman
Is there, um, with Al-Qaeda or in general, is there a language barrier too? It could be just barriers of different communication styles. I mean, you got, like, a New Yorker way about it.
- CVChris Voss
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
That might make somebody from, like, I don't know, Laguna Beach uncomfortable.
- CVChris Voss
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Do y- Do you feel that language barrier and communication is, um... that language and communication style in itself creating a barrier?
- CVChris Voss
You got a, a barrier when you think that your way is the way.
- LFLex Fridman
Sure. That's the biggest barrier.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
Like... And th- And that happens all the time. Um-... when people talk about, "What about cross-cultural negotiations?" You know, uh, "What hand do I gotta shake hands with-
- LFLex Fridman
Sure.
- CVChris Voss
... so that I can get my way?"
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Well, if you strip it all down, we're all, we're all basically the same blank slate when we're born. We got a... Everybody's got a limbic system. Everybody's limbic system works pretty much the same way. People are driven by the same sorts of decisions. "How does this affect my future? What am I at risk of losing? How does this affect my identity?" You're not kinda kidnapper. You're a New York City businessman. You're a tobacco farmer in the South. All making those same, same decisions based on those same things. So, as soon as I start to navigate that and I tailor my approach, which is what empathy is, to what you think, how you see things. So, I can be the biggest goofball ever from... if you live in the South. Yeah, maybe I'm a New Yorker, or, or I'm somebody from LA, or somebody from Chicago. But my geography is foreign to you. But as soon as I start dialing in on how you see things, suddenly you're listening.
- LFLex Fridman
What about the three voices you talk about, the different voices you can use in that communication?
- CVChris Voss
Right. The assertive voice, direct and honest. I'm a natural-born assertive.
- LFLex Fridman
Natural-born? I thought we were all blank slate. 'Cause you're born-
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, well, that's-
- LFLex Fridman
It's like, ah, stop catching me on what I said.
- CVChris Voss
How dare you throw, accuse me of what I've said. To quote Bono, "I stand accused of what I've said, the things I've said."
- LFLex Fridman
That's a good line.
- CVChris Voss
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
He's got, he's got (laughs) a few good lines.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
So, assertive voice. You're born that way. Which one, uh... What are the other ones?
- CVChris Voss
Uh, analyst.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
You're an analyst.
- LFLex Fridman
And I can tell you're assertive. (laughs) .
- CVChris Voss
(laughs) Yeah.
- 1:14:40 – 1:17:46
Strategic umbrage
- CVChris Voss
It's another thing that Tal Raz, when we were writing the book, braced me on. 'Cause he said there's scientific data out there that's called strategic umbrage. Well, there's data. Well, whether or not it's scientific, I would call that into question. But he said there's studies out there that show that strategic umbrage works. And, uh, another thing that I also enjoy... Uh, you'll probably get tired of me saying wonderful things about Andrew. He taught me-
- LFLex Fridman
There's never, there's never enough wonderful things to say about the great Andrew Huberman, the host of the Huberman Lab podcast everybody should subscribe to. You should talk to Andrew when he's not-
- CVChris Voss
You're funnier than he is, though. I'll give you that.
- LFLex Fridman
Hear that, Andrew?
- CVChris Voss
He's f- he's, he's funny accidentally. He makes me laugh all the time. Not when he's trying to be funny (laughs) .
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yeah, he's a really... Uh, he's one of the people in this world that's tr- truly legit. He's a really strong scientist and a really strong communicator and a good human being. And that... Those, those together don't come often, and that it's nice to see.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, he's a treasure, national treasure. Anyway, you were saying?
- CVChris Voss
Well, he, he, he sort of taught me how to think about data and studies and science and, and also from different, uh, books that he's turned me on to. It's really helped me think about this stuff. So the studies about strategic umbrage were done, the ones that I've seen that show it's effective, there were simulated negotiations with college students. Now, here's the problem with that. A simulated negotiation with a college student, college students are gonna sit down as part of their assignment, they're gonna sit down one time, they're gonna sit down for 45 minutes, and they're gonna think that if they didn't come to a deal at all, that they failed.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And there's no ongoing implementation. There's just a deal, and then they walk away of a p- pretend situation. So they got no actual real skin in the game. There's, uh, no deal on Earth do you sit down and come to an agreement in 45 minutes and never see each other again, 'cause there's the implementation of the deal. If it... Even if it's only payment. So the data is flawed based on the way it was collected. It's a highly flawed study. And all data is flawed, as you know, as a scientist. You just gotta be aware of what the flaws are and decide whether or not that destroys the study or, or what do you think? You take a look at the data. There's no such thing as perfect data. Look at the data, see what you think of it. The data that says that strategic umbrage works is based on flawed circumstances.
- LFLex Fridman
Can you explain strategic umbrage? What does it mean?
- CVChris Voss
Getting mad, scaring the other side into a deal. Getting mad at... Using anger strategically to bully the other side into an agreement.
- LFLex Fridman
That's nice to hear in some sense. It's nice to hear that empathy is the right way in almost all situations. It's ni-
- CVChris Voss
Best chance of success. Not that it works every time, just it works more than anything
- 1:17:46 – 1:20:57
Mirroring
- CVChris Voss
else does.
- LFLex Fridman
What is the technique of mirroring? There's a lot of cool stuff in your book. They just kind of jump around. What's mirroring?
- CVChris Voss
Mirroring is, is like... It's, it's, it's one of the most fun skills, because it's the simplest to execute. You just repeat one to three-ish words of what somebody said, usually the last one to three words.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Um, what I found about it is the people that really like mirroring love it because it's so simple and so effortless and invisible. They typically, for lack of a better term, tend to be both high IQ and high EQ. Like, I'm not a high IQ guy. I'm, I'm average dude. I like to think that I can learn. And EQ, emotional intelligence, is a skill you can build, and I'm always working on building it. But a lot of really regular average people would go like, "Mirroring? That's stupid. I'm not doing that." And I don't know why they don't like it. But when I find somebody that loves to mirror, I'll always ask them, you know, "How'd you, how'd you score on I- IQ?" And typically, their IQ is pretty high. Now, I don't know why that combination attracts people to mirroring, 'cause there's, there's nine skills. Um, eight from hostage negotiation, and we... Then the ninth really was tone of voice, and we just defined that as a skill.... and each one is different and focuses on different components of the conversation. And a lot of people don't like to mirror, they find it so awkward. Like I- I don't particularly, I'm not particularly strong in mirroring. I gotta do it intentionally. I'm good at labeling.
- LFLex Fridman
But does it almost always work?
- CVChris Voss
Oh, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, it's... It feels maybe awkward, but there's... It- it's true, there's gotta be ways to signal that you're truly listening.
- CVChris Voss
That's part of it.
- LFLex Fridman
I- I think you can do body language, you can... Yeah, there's a lot of ways to signal that, but mirroring is probably just this trivial little hack.
- CVChris Voss
It kinda is.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, you know what? Uh, there's a situation. I- I had a conversation with Stephen Kotkin, he's this historian, and, uh, he would say my name a lot throughout the conversation. He would be like, "Well, you have to understand, Lex, is that..." And for some reason, that was making me feel really good. I was like, "He cares about me." And I wonder if that key, if everyone has that key, that could be a name, just using people's name, could be powerful.
- CVChris Voss
Using the name is really context-driven.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
It can be extremely powerful with someone who's genuine and it comes across in their demeanor. And it's used in a way that you can tell is meant to encourage you-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
... as opposed to exploit you.
- LFLex Fridman
Sure.
- CVChris Voss
And the people that are really into exploiting will also use it-
- LFLex Fridman
Ah, okay.
- CVChris Voss
... to do the same thing.
- LFLex Fridman
So you have to be... (laughs) you have to avoid using the things that people that are exploiters, manipulators use, 'cause it's... it might signal to others that this person is, uh, trying to trick me.
- CVChris Voss
Gotta be very conscious
- 1:20:57 – 1:28:24
Labeling
- CVChris Voss
of it, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, what's labeling that you mentioned, the thing you like?
- CVChris Voss
Well, it's... Uh, you know, I said earlier, th- that all progression from you sound angry, to this is probably gonna make you angry, to I know you're angry. Labeling is- is hanging a label-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CVChris Voss
... or an emotion or an affect, and then just calling it out.
- LFLex Fridman
Is that almost always good? Because could it be a source of frustration when a person is being angry and you s- you kinda put a label on it, um, call out the elephant? (sighs) That... (laughs) Is it possible that that will lead to escalation of that feeling versus a resolution?
- CVChris Voss
Well, uh, the kind... Uh, what- what would make it bad? Like, um, if I'm pointing out, like, the blatantly obvious. Like, if I say, "Look, I need you to get up and go down to the bank and make the deposit." Let's say I'm talking to my... somebody who works in my company.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
"I need you to get on the phone with this person and make the appointment." And they go, "Sounds like you want me to talk to this person."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CVChris Voss
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CVChris Voss
That would be annoying.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
If it just looks so absurdly obvious-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
... that there's no insight in your label at all. And as, as soon as you're demonstrating an awareness, or a subtlety, or an insight, either to you or to them, now we're making progress. So the only time a label could ever potentially be counterproductive is, like, if you weren't actually listening-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
... and the label is... indicates that you're not listening.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
You know, um, I'm teaching at USC and I'm teaching labels. And, you know, one of the kids in the class, he just wants to take the skills and make his deals, and just hustle them.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
And he's just looking for a hustle.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
So, he writes up a- a paper about... You know, he goes... There's some- some malls, I think, over by Palm Springs or some place, some outlet malls, a lot of people go to buy suits. So, he goes in there and he immediately starts the bargaining, uh, that my book teaches, with no empathy. And he's like, um... throws a price to the guy, and the guy's like, "No." And he throws another price to the guy, and the guy's like, "No."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CVChris Voss
And then, then he says to the- the guy behind the counter, "Sounds like we can make a deal."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- CVChris Voss
Like, no it doesn't.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- 1:28:24 – 1:30:38
Exhaustion
- LFLex Fridman
So what's the, what's the role of exhaustion in negotiation? Is that ultimately one-
- CVChris Voss
You gotta be careful with that. Um, some people, uh, exhaust intentionally. Uh, one of my negotiation heroes, uh, a guy now who's unfortunately suffering from, um, dementia and Alzheimer's. John Domenico Pico is... He ran hostage negotiators that got all, got all the Western hostages out of Beirut in the '80s. And he wrote a book called Man Without a Gun. And I'm acquainted with Johnny. Uh, at this point in time, I don't think, I don't think he has any memory of who I am at all.
Episode duration: 2:10:16
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