Lex Fridman PodcastDana White: UFC, Fighting, Khabib, Conor, Tyson, Ali, Rogan, Elon & Zuck | Lex Fridman Podcast #421
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,005 words- 0:00 – 0:57
Introduction
- DWDana White
... Khabib beat Conor. Putin was on FaceTime before he even made it to the, to the locker room. Um, Trump, sitting president, ex-president, watching all the fights, calling, wants to talk about the fights. Um, Valentina Shevchenko, every time she goes home, she meets with the president of the country. The list goes on and on and on. The most powerful... Elon Musk, Zuckerberg. I mean, the list goes on and on and on. The most powerful people in the world are all obsessed with fighting.
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Dana White, the president of the UFC, a mixed martial arts organization that revolutionized the art, the sport, and the business of fighting. And Dana is truly the mastermind behind the UFC. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Dana White.
- 0:57 – 11:35
Mike Tyson and early days of fighting
- LFLex Fridman
Do you remember when you, uh, saw your first fight?
- DWDana White
I think so. I remember being at my grandmother's house. And I think it was an Ali fight. And all my uncles were going crazy during the fight, and there was just this buzz and this energy in the house that I liked at, at a very young age. And I'm pretty sure that was my first fight.
- LFLex Fridman
Ali was something special.
- DWDana White
Yeah. Incredible. I mean, whe- when you look around, um, not just here in the office but at my house, Ali and Tyson are everywhere.
- LFLex Fridman
Would you put Ali as the greatest of all time, boxing?
- DWDana White
Well, I, I would put Ali as the greatest of all time human being. I mean, when you... It's, it's, it's r- it's easy as a fight fan to focus on him, uh, uh, as a fighter. But when you focus on him as a human, and you think about what he meant at that time and place, the things he said, the poems he came up with, uh, you know, the, just, just the overall brilliance of Muhammad Ali. Um, the guts. The guts to have the strength, mentally, physically, and emotionally to go against the grain at the time that he did it. It was a very dangerous time for him to be who he was. Um, yet, because of how smart he was and because of his personality, and how if you sat down with him, you could- you could be the, the biggest racist on the planet, it's hard to get in a room with Ali and not like Ali.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. He's all love.
- DWDana White
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Humor. All of it.
- DWDana White
100%.
- LFLex Fridman
And had the guts in the ring and the guts to take a stand-
- DWDana White
100%.
- LFLex Fridman
... when it was hard.
- DWDana White
He might be one of the all, all-time greatest humans. You know what I mean? Just an i- impactful, powerful human being who happened to be a great boxer.
- LFLex Fridman
And sometimes th- the right moment meets the, the great human being. That's important.
- DWDana White
I agree with you. And, and he was the right guy in the right place at the right time. And he's also a guy who used his platform for all the right things.
- LFLex Fridman
So that might have been your first fight, but when did you fall in love with fighting? The art of it, the science of it?
- DWDana White
Yeah. I, I would say I f- really fell in love with it, so I, I, I was a senior. It was 1987. And Hagler-Leonard happened.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yeah.
- DWDana White
And I watched that fight and I taped it. And I watched that fight like a million times. I was a huge, huge Hagler fan. And, uh, I like Sugar Ray Leonard too, but I was a huge Hagler fan. And, uh, you know, I just remember (laughs) w- I, I watched that fight a million times because I, I, I was, I was pissed off and I felt like Hagler got robbed in the fight, you know what I mean? But it, it, that was really what made me start to love the sport of boxing.
- LFLex Fridman
The battle of it? Like, uh...
- DWDana White
Yeah. I was 17. And then after that, um, USA's Tuesday Night Fights-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
... uh, came out o- o- on television. It was on every Tuesday night religiously. Never missed Tuesday Night Fights. I was there, watched all those fights, and, uh, you know, a lot of, um, a lot of the, the things you see in the UFC, not, not necessarily, um, just the production, but I would say the, um, the feel and the style and all those things are, are all things that I, things that I loved about boxing and things that I hated about boxing. Right down to the commentary.
- LFLex Fridman
You loved and hated?
- DWDana White
Hate- hated the, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Hated the commentary?
- DWDana White
So certain things that I loved about boxing, I incorporated into the UFC. Things that I hated about boxing, I made sure that the UFC stayed far away from. I think I can't stand Larry Merchant. Can't stand Larry Merchant. And I used to watch HBO Boxing and mute the commentary so that I didn't have to listen to them. Um, Lampley too. Uh, you know, you, you would, you would spend this money for the pay-per-view to watch these people that you idolized, to hear these idiots rip 'em apart while the fight was happening, you know?
- LFLex Fridman
While they were criticizing or-
- DWDana White
Yeah, 100%.
- 11:35 – 17:39
Jiu jitsu
- DWDana White
years.
- LFLex Fridman
What did you think when you saw UFC 1 with Royce?
- DWDana White
I remember everybody talking that this fight was gonna happen and there was gonna be no rules and all this other stuff. And we're like, "There's no way. That's bullshit." And then we ended up at some guy's house that night in Boston and- and watching it and it was happening and it was fun and it was exciting and everything else. And then, uh, and then I sort of fell off after that. The first one I- I- I watched, but I w- I was too big of a boxing fan. Plus, once grappling started taking over and, you know, by grappling meaning the wrestling and the... and- and the jujitsu guys just laid there.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
You know, I- I completely lost interest.... it's funny that, that I'm having this conversation with you right now, because last night, I was out last night with my friends and we were talking about, um... 'Cause one, one of my buddies who's a host here in town-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
... just did jujitsu for the first time. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Nice.
- DWDana White
Yesterday.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
And he was like-
- LFLex Fridman
Did he get his ass kicked or-
- DWDana White
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when you first go in-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
... our first jujitsu lesson, me, Lorenzo, and Frank was with John Lewis.
- LFLex Fridman
Nice.
- DWDana White
And I remember thinking, "Holy shit. I, I, I can't believe that I'm, you know, 28 years old and this is the first time I'm experiencing this, that, that another human being could do this to me-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
... on the ground." It is such an eye-opening, mind-blowing experience when you do it for the first time. And then you become completely addicted to it. And, you know, we were training three, four days a week, trying to kill each other. And, and, uh, me and the Fertittas. A- and that's how we fell in love with the sport. I think that first time you- that you do jujitsu, it's like the red pill and the blue pill in The Matrix.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DWDana White
Do you wanna believe that this is the world (laughs) that you live in?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
Or do you wanna see what the real world looks like? (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Jujitsu's a real red pill.
- DWDana White
It really is.
- LFLex Fridman
You realize, "Holy shit."
- DWDana White
It really is.
- LFLex Fridman
"All that shit talking I've been doing about me being a badass-
- DWDana White
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
... you realize you're not."
- 17:39 – 31:50
Origin of UFC
- LFLex Fridman
What's the origin story of the UFC as it is today, as you have created it, and you and, uh, Lorenzo and Fertitta brothers built it?
- DWDana White
It started with, with John Lewis, you know, and, and, and seeing him. Frank and I were out one night at the Hard Rock-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
... and John Lewis was there. And he's like, "Oh, that's that ultimate fighting guy." And I was like, "I know him." And Frank's like, "I've always wanted to learn, uh, ground fighting." And I said, "Yeah, I'm interested in it too." So we went over, we talked to John Lewis, and we made an appointment.... to wrestle with them on Monday.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
And we told Lorenzo, and Lorenzo came with us. And, uh, that was the beginning of the end. I mean, we- we started doing jujitsu, and- and started to meet a lot of the fighters. And we were like, you know, at the time, there was this stigma attached to the sport that these guys were, you know, despicable, disgusting human beings, but, which was the furthest thing from the truth. These- these kids, uh, had all gone to college, had college degrees most of them, 'cause they wrestled in college. And we started to meet some, and we loved the different stories. You had Chuck Liddell, who, you know, had this mohawk, looks like an ax murderer, and, uh, but graduated from Cal Poly-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
... uh, you know, w- with honors in accounting, you know.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
Then you had Matt Hughes, who was this farm boy, you know, literally lived on a farm and so there were all these cool stories-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
... with all these good people, that weren't what people thought they were. And Lorenzo and I always felt like, "There's something here, that if this thing was done the right way, this could be big." And what was crazy was, I, uh, I was in a contract negotiation with Bob Meyrowitz, the old owner of the UFC, over Tito's contract, um, and Chuck Liddell. They didn't even want Chuck Liddell in the UFC.
- LFLex Fridman
Wow.
- DWDana White
I was trying to get Chuck in the UFC and they didn't even want him.
- LFLex Fridman
Wow.
- DWDana White
And we got into this contract dispute over Tito's contract, and Bob Meyrowitz said, "You know what? There is no more money, okay? I don't even know if I'll even be able to put on one more event." And he like flipped out. When we hung up the phone, I literally picked up the phone and called Lorenzo, and I said, "Hey, I just got off the phone with Bob Meyrowitz, the owner of the UFC. I think they're in trouble, and I think we can buy it, and I think we should. You should reach out to him." So Lorenzo, uh, Lorenzo called Meyrowitz and I don't know how, I don't remember the timeline, but within the next two months, we ended up owning the UFC for two million bucks.
- LFLex Fridman
And, uh, you've said that you fought a lot of battles during that time.
- DWDana White
Uh-oh. I mean, the early days of- of b- building this company and building the sport, it was the wild wild west, man. It was- it was crazy back then. Um, yeah, I- I was literally at war every day with all different types of people. Plus, traditionally, there's bad people that are involved in- in fighting, man. There's lots of bad people. And we had to sift our way through that for the first seven, eight years.
- LFLex Fridman
So in general, there's like corruption and the people kind of steal money. They're thinking just about themselves, not the bigger business.
- DWDana White
Well, let me tell you about this. I mean, I- I- I wanna say it was The Netherlands. I don't remember exactly where. It could've been Amsterdam. I mean, MMA promoters were like car bombing each other and-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DWDana White
... then the other guy shot up the other guy's house-
- LFLex Fridman
Wow.
- DWDana White
... with machine guns, and that's the kind of shit that was going on.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
I'll tell you this story. So Affliction. Do you remember Affliction?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. Uh-huh.
- DWDana White
So there was a guy. Uh, I wanna say, I want, I want to say his name was Tom- Todd Beard or something like that. This guy used to text me every day when they were, when they started their MMA thing-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
... telling me he was gonna kill me.
- 31:50 – 37:56
Joe Rogan
- DWDana White
Thank you.
- LFLex Fridman
Another guy that I feel like could care less about the money is Joe Rogan. How important is he to the UFC, to the rise of the UFC, and what, in general, do you love about Joe?
- DWDana White
It's a fact. He doesn't care about money. And he did the first 13 shows for free for us.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yeah.
- DWDana White
You know what I mean? That was at a time when we were hurting, and he's like, "Wait a minute. You, you want me to do the commentary? You're, you're saying that I get to sit in the best seat in the house and watch these fights for free?"
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yeah.
- DWDana White
"Yeah, I'm in."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
So, um, and then obviously, when we turned things around, we, we made it up to Joe. But Joe is... One of the things that I loved early on about... So I'll tell you the story. So we buy the UFC.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
Um, they're based in New York. We're, we're moving the, the, the, the corporate offices to Vegas. So I have to fly out to New York, go into the offices, and, and, uh, start going through everything and figuring out what needs to come back to Vegas and what we can just throw away. So they literally had a, a VHS machine and a TV, and there were a million tapes in this place, man.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
So I didn't know what tapes were... "These definitely we have to keep," or, "These we don't need." So I had to sit there and go through every single tape. And I popped in a tape, and there was an interview on the Ivory Keenan Wayans Show, right?
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
The oldest Wayans brother.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
And he had a talk show at the time. And he had Joe Rogan, the guy from Fear Factor-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DWDana White
... on the show.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
And he was promoting Fear Factor, but all he would talk about was UFC.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yeah, that's true.
- DWDana White
And he was talking about how people think that these guys in the martial arts movies are, are tough and could do it, and he was talking about what UFC fighters would do to these-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
... m- these martial arts guys if they ever got their hands on them. And I was like, "This is exactly what I need, a guy who isn't afraid to speak his mind and knows the sport inside and out, but more importantly, is super passionate about it and loves it." So when you see Joe Rogan on camera, and I was talking about the paid doc- talking heads that they had on HBO Boxing that were terrible. Joe Rogan does not come off as a paid talking head. He comes off as a guy who loves this. And so early on, no media would cover us. So I had to buy my way onto radio. So we'd do these radio tours, right? And they would drop us in. You'd have to get up at 3:30 in the morning in Vegas, on the West Coast. And they... 'Cause th- there, at 6:30 in the morning o-, uh, in New York and Boston and Florida and all these other places. So they'd drop you into these markets to do radio.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
Right? And, um, the fighters were horrible at it. Fighters getting up at 3:30 in the morning, especially leading up to a fight, never good.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
They sound like they're tired, they act like they're tired, and they definitely act like they don't wanna be on there. And it, it's, it's bad radio. What you can't have is bad radio. So the only two people that could pull off these radio tours were me and Joe Rogan.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Mm-hmm.
- 37:56 – 40:23
Lorenzo Fertitta
- DWDana White
- LFLex Fridman
Lorenzo, another guy you have close friendship with. You seem to have been extremely effective together as, as business partners. What's, what's the magic behind that?
- DWDana White
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
How can you explain that?
- DWDana White
I love him. Lorenzo and I work really well together because we have two different personalities, right? I'm the guy that always... I'm, I'm going here. Lorenzo is always here, right? You could walk in a room and say, "Lorenzo, you just lost $10 million. Lorenzo, you just won $10 million." Burp. It never changes. And I'm a guy that goes like this, right? So y- we, we almost balance each other out. There's a lot of things that he's really fucking good at, and there's a lot of things that I'm really fucking good at, and they're both on the opposite sides of the spectrum.
- LFLex Fridman
So that level-headed thing was useful when the UFC was losing money, and it was unknown whether it's gon- gonna survive-
- DWDana White
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... those low points.
- DWDana White
100%. What's incredible when you think of the sto- the story of the UFC, um, at the time, the casino business was cranking, right? And Station Casinos was killing it. And Stations, their money from Stations is what was funding the UFC. Then in, uh, the '08, '09 crash, the UFC was killing it in '08 and '09, and, you know, the casino businesses were hurting.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
So timing on everything, the way that it all worked out, couldn't have worked out better for them, um, and obviously for all of us. When you think about the UFC and how big it is and how far it reaches and how many people it touches, the Fertittas brothers made a $2 million investment, then put in, like, another $44 million, and look at how many lives that investment has changed over the last 25 years. It's fascinating.
- LFLex Fridman
And it's also crazy just, forget the business of it, just the effect it has on the history of humanity in terms of this is what we do. We're descendants of apes that fight. And this is, like, the organizations that catalyze the de- the innovation in how we fight.
- DWDana White
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
It's crazy.
- DWDana White
So-
- LFLex Fridman
It m- it created a whole new sport.
- DWDana White
That, that people all over the world participate in now. Literally, there isn't a place on Earth that we can't get a fighter from now.
- 40:23 – 44:20
Great fighters
- DWDana White
- LFLex Fridman
You said, uh, in the UFC 299 post-fight press conference that, um, sometimes fighters might complain that, you know, they get matched up, uneven odds, but that's actually when legends are made. Uh, I think you gave Dustin Poirier as an example. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? Like, what makes a legend? What makes greatness in a fight?
- DWDana White
So behind the scenes, fighters are a very paranoid bunch of people. They're very paranoid. And there's been this, this, this theme with fighters where they're trying to get me beat, right?
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
We don't determine who wins and loses. If we did, we'd be the WWE, okay?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
Um, you do. I'm the bells and whistles guy. I make sure that as many people that we can possibly let know that you're fighting on Saturday know that you're fighting on Saturday. Who you are, who you're going against, and why people should give a shit. That's what I do, right?
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
Then the night you show up, I put on the best live event that I possibly can, and I put on the best television show that I possibly can. Once that door shuts, it's all up to you. You determine whether you lose or not. And if you get into a position where you become so paranoid that you think that the powers that be here are against you, and you, you, you try to steer yourself away from certain fights... And, and that, that's one of the big things that happens in these other organizations. In these other organizations, the inmates run the asylum.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
Right? So if they don't wanna fight bad enough, these other companies don't push, and they don't do this, and they don't... We put on the best possible matchups that we can make. And in this business, you might be an older fighter, but if you're still ranked in the top 10, there's young guys coming for you.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
Killers. Young killers are coming out, and they want your position, right? So you being the, the, the veteran that you are have to prepare yourself-... to go in and, you know, everybody was saying when we made that fight with Saint Denis that Poirier was in big trouble. Po- da da da da da. That's awesome.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
That- that helps build the entire thing that Poirier... And then Poirier goes out and does what he did that night.
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- DWDana White
That's what makes fucking legends.
- LFLex Fridman
It's interesting, 'cause, like, sometimes being the underdog is a really good thing for the long term story of who you are as a fighter.
- DWDana White
Especially when you're a big name and, uh, a name that people recognize and a name that people know and, you know? And they're like, "Oh, man." I remember Israel Adesanya and- and- and, uh, Sean Strickland.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
100 out of 100 people knew for a fact that Israel was gonna win that fight.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. Yeah.
- DWDana White
And here comes Strickland. And- and we could go on for days with this, you know what I mean? That is what creates legendary moments, legendary fights, and it's what builds stars and legends.
- LFLex Fridman
I mean, arguably, um, Conor McGregor with Jose Aldo.
- DWDana White
Yep. Conor McGregor with a bunch of people in the beginning.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DWDana White
People said he couldn't wrestle, people said he wouldn't be able-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
... to defend a take down. Um, blah, blah, blah, blah. Nate Diaz against Conor McGregor.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- 44:20 – 47:27
Khabib vs Conor
- LFLex Fridman
have been. What do you think about that matchup? It's one of the- one of the greats- one of the great matchups that you've made, Conor McGregor versus Khabib.
- DWDana White
Yeah, I mean, at the time, I was incredibly criticized for putting together the spot that had the- the scene with the bus in it.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, yeah.
- DWDana White
You know, you know how the fucking media is. But they were saying that I was pandering to the- to the- you know, to the violence that happened and trying to... No, I'm telling you a story. Telling you a story of how we got here and how big this fight is and how bad the blood is between these guys. And, I mean, I think that's what we do the best job at, is telling the fucking stories of why... I- I... We go into Monday, it's fight week. We got a whole list of things that we do-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
... fight week, right? And then you get right down to the press conference on Thursday, the weigh-ins on Friday, and then the fight's on Saturday. Now, my people fly back home, they go to bed on Sunday night, and it's Groundhog Day. We wake up again on Monday, and it starts all over again. Every weekend, every Saturday for a year.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
So, there's lots of stories that need to be told, there's lots of... When you think about what I compete with, whatever takes your attention on a Saturday night is my competitor.
- LFLex Fridman
So you're always trying to build a foundation for great stories. And, like, if the fighters step up, they step up, and they can together create greatness.
- DWDana White
That's it. That's exactly right.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
So, when we are aligned, like, when you get to the UFC, I mean, you just saw it with MVP, um, you're gonna see it with Kayla Harrison and, um, so many others that- that- that have come from other organizations and they get here. They notice immediately the difference between fighting here and fighting wherever they were before. It's not even comparable to the impact it has on you when you leave whatever organization you're with and you come to the UFC. And I think that it gives them a sense of, "Holy shit, I- I- I can really..." I mean, MVP, when he came, I mean, there were probably more people at the press conference than any fight he'd ever fought in in- in- in Bellator. You know what I mean? And you feel that energy and you feel the- you feel the difference of the impact of being here, and I think it takes a lot of these guys to another level.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, just the aura of it, like-
- DWDana White
100%.
- LFLex Fridman
... this is where you're supposed to step up. Yeah, it's the way people feel about TED Talks when they're (laughs) -
- DWDana White
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
... giving lectures.
- DWDana White
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
This is your moment. You get 15 minutes, and let's see if you better-
- DWDana White
So true.
- LFLex Fridman
... say some interesting shit. Yeah, and Kayla Harrison, by the way, is a badass. I can't wait to see what happens there.
- DWDana White
She was walking around with, like, this sleeveless shirt the night of the fights, and holy shit.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DWDana White
She is jacked, man. It's crazy.
- LFLex Fridman
Two-time Olympic gold medalist.
- DWDana White
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
You- you don't fuck with those people. You wi- you win a medal, you're- you're- you're made of something special.
- DWDana White
So true, especially in judo.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. Especially in American judo where it's not-
- DWDana White
100%.
- 47:27 – 50:28
Jon Jones
- LFLex Fridman
Ridiculous question, but who is in the conversation for the greatest of all time?
- DWDana White
Jon Jones.
- LFLex Fridman
So you- you've talked about Jon Jones, but what are the metrics involved here?
- DWDana White
He's never been beat.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DWDana White
He destroyed everybody at light heavyweight, which, at the time, was the toughest, uh, weight class, um, i- in the company, in the sport. And then, uh, he moved up to heavyweight, won easily-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
... at heavyweight, um, and- and- and when you look at a guy and you look at what he was doing outside the octagon at the same time, which shouldn't be part of it, shouldn't be part of the- the equation, but when you do, wow. Jon Jones, there's no debate. Nobody can debate who's the greatest of all time. It's absolutely, positively Jon Jones. He's never lost. Nobody... He's never been beat in the octagon, ever.
- LFLex Fridman
So that's one of the metrics, like, pure, sheer dominance. But there's others, right? There, you could... Losing sometimes is- is a catalyst for greatness.
- DWDana White
I don't disagree. But when you've never lost-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DWDana White
... right? It's this, uh, you've never lost. We- we've never found somebody... And- and all-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
The- the other thing is that you have to put, uh, factor in, too......is longevity.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
How long he's, 'cause sometimes with a lot of these guys, the sport passes them by. You get younger guys that are faster, this, that, and the sport evolves. Nobody's been able to beat Jon Jones. Oh, and the other thing that you measure is, you know, when you said dominance, it's true. If you're this guy that has unbelievable power and you're just going in and you're just fucking knocking everybody out, and nobody's ever pulled you into the deep water before.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
That was when my opinion of Jon Jones started to change. Gustafsson took him into the deep water. Gustafsson hit him with some shit he'd never been hit with. Gustafsson tested him and put Jon Jones in a place where I-I bet if you sat down and interviewed Jon Jones, going into the deep rounds of that, Jon Jones thought he was gonna die.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DWDana White
You know what I'm saying?
- LFLex Fridman
And he was, he's willing to go there.
- DWDana White
And he kept going. He was, he was willing, willing to do whatever it took to win that fight.
- LFLex Fridman
And it breaks my heart because he beat DC, and DC is one of the greatest of all time.
- DWDana White
That's the thing too. And, and I believe that DC doesn't get the credit he deserves because of the Jon Jones thing. When you look at DC and what he's accomplished, right, and Jon Jones beat him twice.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
It's undeniable. You can hate all you want. Jon Jones was the greatest of all time.
- LFLex Fridman
Do you think, uh, Khabib was tested enough?
- DWDana White
I think that Khabib had the potential to be in the running for that. He didn't, he just didn't stick around li- first of all, he, he, he had injuries that, that, that, you know, he should have been where he got a lot sooner had he not had the injuries that he had and the setbacks in his career. But there's no doubt, Khabib is one of the all-time greats.
- 50:28 – 55:31
Conor McGregor
- DWDana White
- LFLex Fridman
What's the, the good, the bad and the ugly of your relationship with Conor?
- DWDana White
There's literally no ugly. Conor McGregor has been an incredible partner to work with. Everybody thinks that Conor... If Conor showed up to things on time-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
...there wouldn't be one fucking bad thing I could say about Conor.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
You know what I mean?
- LFLex Fridman
So it's not only being late to shit.
- DWDana White
If, if you fucking said, you put a gun to my fucking head, right, and said, "Don't lie, motherfucker. Tell me all the bad things about Conor McGregor," I'd say the guy doesn't show up on time. That's it.
- LFLex Fridman
That's it.
- DWDana White
If Conor McGregor showed up to shit on time, and sometimes he does, (laughs) sometimes he does, he'd be, he'd be, he's been a great partner. If you look at what a huge superstar he became, the fights that he was involved in. Let me tell you what Conor McGregor never did. We never walked in a room and said, "Conor, this guy just fell out. Um, we want you to fight this guy." And he was like, "No way, I'm not taking this fucking risk. I'm at this point in my career where my money, my this, my that." He was like, "Fuck it, let's do it." You know, he'd always say, "Let's do it." The other thing that Conor McGregor never did, no matter how big he was or whatever it was when we were heading into a fight, "Oh, Conor, this guy just fell out. Aldo fell out, we're looking for another." "Yeah, I'll do it, but I'm gonna need another fucking 200,000. I'm gonna need another million dollars. I'm gonna..." Conor McGregor never did that kind, chicken shit, you know, bullshit kind of stuff. He, he never did any of that. Conor was as solid a guy as you could possibly work with.
- LFLex Fridman
"Just fuck it, I'll do it."
- DWDana White
"I'll do it."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DWDana White
Literally would... There's actually a scene 'cause we were filming something, I don't know if it was Embedded or what we were filming at the time. Me and Lorenzo walk into his house that he rented here in Vegas, and I'm pretty sure it was when Aldo fell out. And we're telling him this, that, and we're looking at some options. He says, "I'm going to the gym. When I'm done working out, let me know." You know, he just woke up out of bed, he's in his fucking underwear. And he gets hit with this, and he's like, "All right, I'm going to the gym. Let me know when I get out who I'm fighting." Doesn't care, doesn't wanna know, doesn't want any more money, nothing. Fucking shows up and he delivers.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
Yeah. So, you know, Conor has been incredibly successful. He's made a lot of money. And, you know, he's had his ups and downs outside and inside the octagon. But as, for a guy who was, you know, on the dole and was a plumber, he's actually a really smart businessman and he's been one of the best partners that I've ever had in the history of the sport.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, and an important part of the history of the UFC.
- DWDana White
Big.
- LFLex Fridman
He opened it up to all, all kinds of new guys.
- DWDana White
Yep. He literally, um, you know, set Europe, Australia, Canada, and many other parts of the world on fire, man. He, he, he, he, he was, uh, our, our first legit megastar.
- LFLex Fridman
And I personally think he doesn't get enough credit for just how good he was as a fighter. And people love to talk shit about Conor.
- DWDana White
So true.
- LFLex Fridman
I suppose that's part of his magic.
- DWDana White
And, and, but it, but it, but it comes with success.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
When you're successful, there's always people out there that are gonna talk shit. You know, you always have a bunch of know-nothing, do-nothing fucking losers-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yeah.
- DWDana White
...that, that love to talk shit.
- LFLex Fridman
You think if you were to do it all over again, Khabib is the right matchup?
- 55:31 – 1:01:09
Trump
- DWDana White
- LFLex Fridman
You and Trump are friends. I was just talking to Ivanka last night about her experience at the... uh, at the... in the Miami event. She loves it. She's training too. You were talking about getting girls to train. She's training too.
- DWDana White
And the kids are training, yeah. Her father's the biggest fucking fight fan on the planet. Calls me all the time to talk about the fights, and-and, uh, Don Jr. said that I'm like the only guy on Earth that he bros out with. Like...
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DWDana White
...you know, we-we... It's funny when you talk about how powerful fighting is, right? This last Miami event, the president of Ecuador and the president of Spain-
- LFLex Fridman
Wow.
- DWDana White
...both posted about the fights, right? Um, Khabib beat Conor. Putin was on FaceTime before he even made it to the... to the locker room. Um, Trump, sitting president, ex-president, watching all the fights, calling, wants to talk about the fights. Um, Valentina Shevchenko, every time she goes home, she meets with the president of the country. The list goes on and on and on. The most powerful... Elon Musk, Zuckerberg. I mean, the list goes on and on and on. The most powerful people in the world are all obsessed with fighting.
- LFLex Fridman
When did you first discover that Trump loves fighting?
- DWDana White
So I first discovered that Trump was a big fight fan... Obviously, you saw him part of all the big... You're talking about how big boxing fans we were. He was a part of all the big fights back then. But, um, when we first bought the UFC, this thing was so bad, venues didn't even want us.
- LFLex Fridman
Hm.
- DWDana White
And we ended up doing, uh, uh, you know, our first event in Atlantic City at the Trump Taj Mahal. Now, think about this. At that time, Trump brand here, UFC brand. I mean, I can't go low enough. And, uh, he had us at his venue two times, back to back. Showed up for the first fight of the night and stayed till the last fight of the night. Then after that, any good thing that would ever happen to me in my career, Trump would reach out. Whether it was... We were on the front page of the New York Times at one time, and he said, "Congratulations, Dana. I always knew you guys were gonna do it." Little things like that, but that-that are big things and, uh, mean a lot, especially coming from a guy like him.
- LFLex Fridman
So he saw... He saw something in you, like, "This is gonna be..."
- DWDana White
100%. He definitely saw it. And, uh, then comes '15, '16, whenever it was, I don't remember. But he called me and he said, "Listen, if you don't wanna do this, I completely understand, but I would be honored if you would speak at the National Republican Convention for me." And I'm not a very political guy. You know what I mean? And everybody told me not to do it. "Do not do this." But I was like, "Why would I not do this? This guy's been-been great to me, you know?" And, uh, I did it. And our relationship is just like... You know what I mean? I consider Donald Trump to be one of my very, very good friends.
- LFLex Fridman
Any, uh, favorite stories?
- DWDana White
I mean, there's so many stories. I mean, o- (laughs) once... Once he-he-he won the election, like, I'd be at work and, uh, I'd be down the hall, was in the matchmaker room or whatever, and my secretary would yell, "The president's on the phone." Fucking come running down the hallway and grab the phone, and he'd wanna talk about the-the fight that was coming up or the fight that happened. Or I'd be in my car and, uh, I'd answer the phone. It's like, uh, "Hi, this is the White House. We have the president, uh, uh, uh-"
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yeah.
- DWDana White
"...of the United States on the phone."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
You know, that's a trip when that first starts happening.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
And then, um, just to-to-to... to sum him up, this is the kind of guy that... You wanna talk about a fighter? This is the most resilient human being I've ever met. If you see the shit that this guy's going through publicly every day. And I'll call him on the phone as a friend and be like, "Hey, you good? How you doing?"
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
Unfazed. Unfazed. Like nothing's going on. And he'll start talking to me about this and that and all this other shit. One time. There's only been one time. I've never talked about this publicly, but one time, I called him and he was not good. He wa- he was a mess. And I've never heard him like that and I've never seen him like that, when, uh, Ivana died. The only time I've ever seen him fucked up. Obviously, as soon as I heard it, I reached out and I have never... Th- look at all the stuff that's gone on with Trump, all the bad stuff that they say. They're trying to attack him, they're trying to ruin him. Unfazed. I called him that day and he was... This is the first time I've ever seen that guy busted up and, and, and not good.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, that says something that that's the only time.
- DWDana White
100%.
- LFLex Fridman
'Cause that guy is, I mean, walking through fire.
- DWDana White
He does not get rattled. He, he will walk through fire. He's a absolute savage.
- LFLex Fridman
You think he wins the presidential election?
- DWDana White
I don't know, man. It's gonna depend on how this whole... I... Politics is the most dirtiest, scummiest thing on planet Earth, man, and, and who knows how this is all gonna play out. It's, it's all dirty, it's all ugly, and, you know, obviously...... I'm rooting for him and- and- and I'm behind him and- and I hope he does. Um, but we'll see.
- LFLex Fridman
What's dirtier? The, uh, the fighting game in the early days or politics?
- 1:01:09 – 1:02:30
Elon vs Zuck
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, another guy who doesn't seem to be fazed by the fire, I've gotten to know him, is Elon. I have to ask you this, a bit- a bit of fun. You were part of, um... thinking about putting together Zuck versus Elon.
- DWDana White
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
I trained with both. I did a phone call with Elon and you, when you- when we were training-
- DWDana White
I remember, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... on the mat. (laughs)
- DWDana White
Yep.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, you really think that could've been a good fight?
- DWDana White
It would've been the biggest fight ever done.
- LFLex Fridman
The spectacle of it.
- DWDana White
Two of the most powerful, wealthiest men in the world, right? Lots of guys talk shit and go back and forth and sue each other and do all this stuff. These two guys were literally talking about facing each other in the octagon and fighting. There's nothing... And they're- they're in a business that's looked at as geeky. You know what I mean? They're- they're- they're tech nerds, they're this, they're that. These are two dudes that were willing to throw down and fight and, uh- and- and- and you know as well as I do, there's a lot of public speculation about this. I was taking serious real time in working on this thing.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
I mean, I had projections, I had numbers, I was looking at venues, I was on the phone with the fucking colosseum in Italy. You name it, I- I was in it. These guys were serious and this was something that was really gonna happen. And I'll tell you right now, the- in the short amount of time that it was, uh- it was going down, it was fun. I was having a blast with it.
- 1:02:30 – 1:05:18
Mike Tyson vs Jake Paul
- DWDana White
- LFLex Fridman
What do you think about Tyson? Tyson fighting Jake Paul?
- DWDana White
I love Mike Tyson.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah?
- DWDana White
And, uh, I- I'm- I'm not a fan of anybody fighting at- at our age. Um, but he's a grown man, obviously, and, you know, he's- he's gonna do what he's gonna do. But I- at least I know. I talked to, um... I talked to his wife a couple of days ago, and he's taking this serious and he's training for it. And, you know, so we'll see how it plays out.
- LFLex Fridman
Why do you think he fights still? Like, what is that about... Is there a broader lesson there about fighters?
- DWDana White
Well, I think that-
- LFLex Fridman
About great fighters?
- DWDana White
I think that Mike Tyson is actually one of those unique guys who has crossed over. Any of these other boxers-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
... th- the- from his era, they have no way of making money other than fighting. Mike Tyson's made a lot of money outside of fighting. I mean, Tyson still has that aura. You could be at a restaurant and he walks in and you're like, "Holy fuck, Mike Tyson's here." You know, he still has that type of aura and- and energy i- in a room. Um, and- and- and he makes lots of money outside of the ring. I- I just, I think that he ends up getting these offers that he can't refuse.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, you think it's financial? So how much... I mean, it's a good question to ask. You work with a lot of fighters. For how many of them is it about money and for how many is it about the fact, the pure love of fighting?
- DWDana White
Well, the guys that get into it for the right reason, are the guys who get into it for greatness, 'cause you wanna be the fucking best, right? And, um, when you're in it for that reason-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
... right, you love it and you wanna be looked at as the best ever, and- and you have the talent, the money happens, right? Then you have other guys who get in it. I... Believe me, I've dealt with fighters who just wanted to be famous and just wanted to make money. You know what I mean? And it's... you know. Listen, it- it is what it is. It's- it's- it's your- it's your life and- and- and you live it the way that you want and- and do your thing. But the ones that are beloved are the guys who really wanna be fucking great. And they're the ones that are remembered and... I mean, when you look at Tyson in his early years when he came up under Cus D'Amato, I mean, he was a student of the game. He- he- he loved everything. He became completely infatuated with the fight game. Then, he became such a massive superstar. It's almost like the whole thing starts to turn on you.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
You know, all the things that come at you at a young age and that kind of money and... It's- it's tough. It's tough to navigate and get through. And, you know, you- you say something like that and people are like, "Oh, poor him. He had fucking $100 million and couldn't..." At that age, and with all the shit that people talk and all the things that you gotta put up with and
- 1:05:18 – 1:12:31
Forrest Griffin vs Stephan Bonnar
- DWDana White
the fame.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
A lot of people deal with fame. Some people handle it really well and some people don't. And the perfect example, um, o- of that was Forrest Griffin and Stephan Bonnar.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
You know, they fought that- that unbelievable fight on The Ultimate Fighter. Everything blew up after that. Forrest da- dealt with fame really well and- and- and Stephan did not.
- LFLex Fridman
That was a special fight.
- DWDana White
It really was.
- LFLex Fridman
What do you think attracted people to that fight? So that- that made... That was a big, uh, leap for the UFC.
- DWDana White
It was everything.
- LFLex Fridman
It was everything?
- DWDana White
It was everything.
- LFLex Fridman
Why do you think people loved that fight? What- what attracted people to that fight? Why did they change everything?
- DWDana White
Well, what happened that night is the- the rest of the show was a disaster.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
Um, you know, we had the co-main event and the main event. Uh, uh, Diego Sanchez ran through Kenny Florian in seconds. Um, oh my god.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
That was- that was terrible and the fights that led up to that weren't anything to talk about either. Then Stephan and Forrest got in there and just went toe-to-toe in this unbelievable slugfest, live on free television, when cable still mattered. And what I heard was, at the time, you know, you had people picking up the phone going, "Are you watching this show?" And ... the- the numbers just started climbing. Then you got a razor thin decision. Who's gonna win? You got the crowd stomping their feet. It sounded like a train was going through the place and everybody's chanting, "One more round."
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
Me and the Fertitta brothers get together and we talk, we're gonna give them both contracts. So we give them both contracts and the place erupts. It just...... it couldn't have been a more perfect fight at the most perfect time. And it just, it- it- it all came together. It's almost like this was meant to be. You know what I mean?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
So we had so many problems with Spike TV at the time, right, because halfway through the season, the president of the company got fired.
- LFLex Fridman
Hmm.
- DWDana White
All the things that we thought we were gonna get that year, you know, we- we- we had this runaway hit show. And normally at that time, when you would see runaway hit shows, there'd be commercials, it'd be on- be on billboards, it'd be on the side of buses, in- in LA and New York. Eh, we got none of that, right? We didn't even know if we were gonna get a- a, you know, a- a second season coming out of that, right? And when that fight was over, I swear to God, I was like, "I don't even give a fuck. We're gonna end up somewhere now after this fight." And we didn't even make it out of the building that night. The- the- the Spike guys did the contract with us in the alley on a fucking napkin after the fight, so...
- LFLex Fridman
So you saw the, you already saw the magic of the fight itself. The- the- the- it Once that happened... Yeah.
- DWDana White
... and all the shit... And at that time I didn't know what the ratings... It's not like we were streaming.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
And we could see what we were... We had no idea, but I knew.
- LFLex Fridman
You just knew this was special.
- DWDana White
I knew. This-
- LFLex Fridman
What- what is there? It's like just two people being willing to s- stand toe-to-toe and just go to war.
- 1:12:31 – 1:27:33
Gambling
- LFLex Fridman
You love gambling.
- DWDana White
I do.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) What's the biggest win of your gambling career? Maybe psychologically, if not financially?
- DWDana White
Well, two things. I- I- I won a million dollar hand, uh, one night, it's happened one time. A million dollar hand one night at, um, Mandalay Bay. And then, uh, one summer I beat, uh, I beat Caesars for 12 million.... uh, throughout the summer.
- LFLex Fridman
Throughout the summer?
- DWDana White
Yeah. And then, uh, I'm on a pretty good run right now too.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, this is blackjack.
- DWDana White
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
What's the, uh, biggest loss?
- DWDana White
Biggest loss was, uh... I w- h- here, here is... I would call this the biggest loss for many different reasons. This, this is what, you know... You live and you learn in life and you, you know, you, you-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- DWDana White
...figure things out as you go along.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, yeah.
- DWDana White
So one night I'm over at the, uh, at The Rio, right? And, uh, they got big suites over there, so I go over there with some buddies and w- we got one of the suites and we have some dinner and we start drinking, right? So we're having some drinks at dinner and blah, blah, blah. Starts to ramp up, I'm having a good time, and, um, I make my way down to the high-limit room. We start gambling, and I continue to drink. Having a blast. I end up leaving and going home that night, and I lost like 80 grand, right? So I wake up the next morning, I'm like, "Fuck, those motherfuckers got me for 80,000 last night," and da-da-da-da-da. So I'm at work the next day, and, uh, the host over there calls me and he says, "Hey, Dana, um, are you coming back? You, do you still need the room that you guys had where you ate and all the shit and you st-" And I said, "No, you... I don't need the room, but don't get, don't, don't get too comfortable with my fucking 80 grand. I'm coming back for it."
- LFLex Fridman
Uh-huh, yeah.
- DWDana White
Dead fucking silence on the other end of the phone. And he's like, "Dana, you lost $3 million last night."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DWDana White
I said, "What the fuck are you talking about? I, I d- I, I, I, I only have a, uh, a million and a half dollar credit line."
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana White
He goes, "Yeah, you, uh, you made us call the GM of the hotel and you started calling him a fucking pussy and-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- DWDana White
...and da-da-da-da-da." And I'm, and I went, "Yeah."
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, no.
- DWDana White
"No, that, that-"
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, no.
- DWDana White
"...that sounds like something I would do, yeah." And-
- LFLex Fridman
So that's the real number?
- DWDana White
That was the real number. And then-
- LFLex Fridman
(exhales) .
- DWDana White
And then, you know... There's been a lot of cases where people are in Vegas and they're like, um, "Oh," you know, "I lost all this money," you know, and, "They were giving me free drinks and I drank too much and I was taken advantage of."
Episode duration: 1:30:20
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