Dana White: UFC, Fighting, Khabib, Conor, Tyson, Ali, Rogan, Elon & Zuck | Lex Fridman Podcast #421

Dana White 0:00 ... Khabib beat Conor. Putin was on FaceTime before he even made it to the, to the locker room. Um, Trump, sitting president, ex-president, watching all the fights, calling, wants to talk about the fights. Um, Valentina Shevchenko, every time she goes home, she meets with the president of the country. The list goes on and on and on. The most powerful... Elon Musk, Zuckerberg. I mean, the list goes on and on and on. The most powerful people in the world are all obsessed with fighting.

Lex Fridman 0:30 The following is a conversation with Dana White, the president of the UFC, a mixed martial arts organization that revolutionized the art, the sport, and the business of fighting. And Dana is truly the mastermind behind the UFC. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Dana White.

Lex Fridman 0:57 Do you remember when you, uh, saw your first fight?

Dana White 1:00 I think so. I remember being at my grandmother's house. And I think it was an Ali fight. And all my uncles were going crazy during the fight, and there was just this buzz and this energy in the house that I liked at, at a very young age. And I'm pretty sure that was my first fight.

Lex Fridman 1:17 Ali was something special.

Dana White 1:18 Yeah. Incredible. I mean, whe- when you look around, um, not just here in the office but at my house, Ali and Tyson are everywhere.

Lex Fridman 1:28 Would you put Ali as the greatest of all time, boxing?

Dana White 1:30 Well, I, I would put Ali as the greatest of all time human being. I mean, when you... It's, it's, it's r- it's easy as a fight fan to focus on him, uh, uh, as a fighter. But when you focus on him as a human, and you think about what he meant at that time and place, the things he said, the poems he came up with, uh, you know, the, just, just the overall brilliance of Muhammad Ali. Um, the guts. The guts to have the strength, mentally, physically, and emotionally to go against the grain at the time that he did it. It was a very dangerous time for him to be who he was. Um, yet, because of how smart he was and because of his personality, and how if you sat down with him, you could- you could be the, the biggest racist on the planet, it's hard to get in a room with Ali and not like Ali.

Lex Fridman 2:26 Yeah. He's all love.

Dana White 2:27 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 2:27 Humor. All of it.

Dana White 2:29 100%.

Lex Fridman 2:30 And had the guts in the ring and the guts to take a stand-

Dana White 2:34 100%.

Lex Fridman 2:34 ... when it was hard.

Dana White 2:35 He might be one of the all, all-time greatest humans. You know what I mean? Just an i- impactful, powerful human being who happened to be a great boxer.

Lex Fridman 2:47 And sometimes th- the right moment meets the, the great human being. That's important.

Dana White 2:52 I agree with you. And, and he was the right guy in the right place at the right time. And he's also a guy who used his platform for all the right things.

Lex Fridman 3:03 So that might have been your first fight, but when did you fall in love with fighting? The art of it, the science of it?

Dana White 3:09 Yeah. I, I would say I f- really fell in love with it, so I, I, I was a senior. It was 1987. And Hagler-Leonard happened.

Lex Fridman 3:19 (laughs) Yeah.

Dana White 3:20 And I watched that fight and I taped it. And I watched that fight like a million times. I was a huge, huge Hagler fan. And, uh, I like Sugar Ray Leonard too, but I was a huge Hagler fan. And, uh, you know, I just remember (laughs) w- I, I watched that fight a million times because I, I, I was, I was pissed off and I felt like Hagler got robbed in the fight, you know what I mean? But it, it, that was really what made me start to love the sport of boxing.

Lex Fridman 3:49 The battle of it? Like, uh...

Dana White 3:50 Yeah. I was 17. And then after that, um, USA's Tuesday Night Fights-

Lex Fridman 3:58 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 3:58 ... uh, came out o- o- on television. It was on every Tuesday night religiously. Never missed Tuesday Night Fights. I was there, watched all those fights, and, uh, you know, a lot of, um, a lot of the, the things you see in the UFC, not, not necessarily, um, just the production, but I would say the, um, the feel and the style and all those things are, are all things that I, things that I loved about boxing and things that I hated about boxing. Right down to the commentary.

Lex Fridman 4:31 You loved and hated?

Dana White 4:34 Hate- hated the, yeah.

Lex Fridman 4:35 Hated the commentary?

Dana White 4:36 So certain things that I loved about boxing, I incorporated into the UFC. Things that I hated about boxing, I made sure that the UFC stayed far away from. I think I can't stand Larry Merchant. Can't stand Larry Merchant. And I used to watch HBO Boxing and mute the commentary so that I didn't have to listen to them. Um, Lampley too. Uh, you know, you, you would, you would spend this money for the pay-per-view to watch these people that you idolized, to hear these idiots rip 'em apart while the fight was happening, you know?

Lex Fridman 5:09 While they were criticizing or-

Dana White 5:09 Yeah, 100%.

Lex Fridman 5:10 ... taking them apart. I've gotten used to the UFC, so I don't, I'm trying to remember looking back.

Dana White 5:17 It was bad.

Lex Fridman 5:17 It was bad?

Dana White 5:18 It was really bad.

Lex Fridman 5:20 But the, uh, the, the sweet science, the art of boxing was beautiful still. Like the stories they told.

Dana White 5:25 100%. I, I wanna do this with you right now. Hey, will, will you bring your cellphone over here and, and, and pull up YouTube? I wanna do this for you f- so that you, you can understand this and understand where I was coming from.

Lex Fridman 5:36 For the commentary?

Dana White 5:37 At... Yeah. At this point in time.

Lex Fridman 5:39 I have all good memories. You're gonna ruin it for me.

Dana White 5:41 Yeah, no. There are nothing but great memories about boxing. But the presentation and, and, and a lot of things... But it, but it's how fucking weird is it that I even cared about this shit at that point in my life and that time in my life? Like, what impact could I possibly have on it? So think about Tyson and how much everybody loved Tyson at the time, and I'm gonna listen to this.Listen to this entrance.

Narrator 6:04 ... of the former undisputed heavyweight champion. And here he comes, Mike Tyson. As he heads toward the same ring he made his disgraceful exit in June of '97.

Lex Fridman 6:14 Wow.

Narrator 6:14 The crowd-

Dana White 6:15 One of the baddest motherfucking walk-ins of all time, by the way, right?

Lex Fridman 6:18 Yeah. Look at that.

Dana White 6:19 So- so what this guy should be doing... And this is one of the Albert brothers.

Lex Fridman 6:23 Yeah.

Dana White 6:24 "Shut the fuck up."

Lex Fridman 6:25 Yeah.

Dana White 6:25 "Stay out of the way."

Lex Fridman 6:26 Yeah. Maybe build them up.

Dana White 6:30 Or that. Or don't say anything.

Lex Fridman 6:32 Yeah.

Dana White 6:33 Just let the fan-

Narrator 6:33 Now, explaining-

Dana White 6:34 That's why I watch-

Lex Fridman 6:34 Yeah, that's their... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Narrator 6:36 ... literally.

Dana White 6:36 That's why we paid our money.

Narrator 6:37 Rice and Eder into some-

Lex Fridman 6:38 You don't need to say anything.

Narrator 6:39 ... scary, imposing music. Will he be able to intimidate his opponent tonight? Will it even matter? I really thought there'd be, uh, more of an explosion by the crowd here, but, uh, very mixed. Even with a win tonight, no matter how one-sided, he will still have his detractors. Following the two fights to- with Holyfield, his stock plummeted, the pundits came down hard, feeling they were duped and his knockouts were over. Second-rate fighters. Now the crowd erupts more as he gets into the ring. But it's certainly nothing overwhelming.

Lex Fridman 7:27 What a dick. You're right. I don't remember that. You're right.

Dana White 7:32 Imagine-

Lex Fridman 7:33 You're right.

Dana White 7:34 Imagine, you- you- you- you- you paid your money-

Lex Fridman 7:36 Yeah.

Dana White 7:36 ... to watch Mike Tyson, and you gotta listen to these fucking jerk-offs talk shit-

Lex Fridman 7:41 Yeah.

Dana White 7:41 ... about him the whole way to the... Right? First of all, one of the coolest walk-ins ever, you know.

Lex Fridman 7:46 Yeah.

Dana White 7:46 It's the first time anybody had heard DMX, right?

Lex Fridman 7:49 Yeah, yeah.

Dana White 7:49 And, uh-

Lex Fridman 7:50 That's right.

Dana White 7:50 ... you know, "He's walking into some scary, imposing music. Will it even matter whether..." You know.

Lex Fridman 7:55 Yeah, yeah.

Dana White 7:55 It's just all that kind of stuff. I- I- I do l- literally used to analyze every ounce of the production that would happen on television. And, uh, at a time when I didn't even know why I was doing it, but-

Lex Fridman 8:10 But it's in there somewhere.

Dana White 8:11 H-

Lex Fridman 8:11 Like you were thinking about it.

Dana White 8:12 Right? So yeah, I hated HBO, uh, commentary. I thought, you know, at the time, HBO Boxing was obviously the gold standard for- for... You know. But when you really think about boxing at- at that time, the production, the only thing that changed over 30 years was like HD. I mean, even the commentators were the same for- for 30 years. And then you had the time when Larry Merchant gets up and- and literally starts fighting with Floyd Mayweather during the interview and says, "If I was 30 years younger, I'd kick your ass right now."

Lex Fridman 8:43 Oh, yeah, I remember that. Yeah, yeah.

Dana White 8:44 I mean, these are the interviews that we have to listen to-

Lex Fridman 8:47 Yeah.

Dana White 8:47 ... when we're trying to watch a boxing match.

Lex Fridman 8:49 The level of boxing was good.

Dana White 8:51 Think about a fighter, right? Fighter has been gone for months, away from their families and-

Lex Fridman 8:57 Yeah.

Dana White 8:57 ... away from everything, training, cutting weight, sparring. Then they go in and they have to fight that night. And then you have to... You know, if you watch your fight back, you gotta listen to this bullshit from these guys. And then, and then you get interviewed and- and your interview is- is this. Uh, it just-

Lex Fridman 9:13 And it's not just about the pay-per-view money. It's about like these are legends of humanity. Like-

Dana White 9:18 100%.

Lex Fridman 9:18 ... we should celebrate the highest form or like accomplishment.

Dana White 9:21 100%.

Lex Fridman 9:22 Because these are like Mike Tyson.

Dana White 9:23 So you know who goes in there and- and interviews fighters? Joe Rogan, right?

Lex Fridman 9:28 Yeah.

Dana White 9:28 Who- who is trained and- and- and- and- and done everything, and has the utmost respect for the sport and the athletes. Or y- y- you got like Daniel Cormier, who was a former world champion himself and has actually been through it, done it, knows. And those are the type of people that we put in the booth, people that are actually experienced in it.

Lex Fridman 9:46 Yeah.

Dana White 9:46 Not- not- not- not these people who've never been in a fight in their fucking life, right?

Lex Fridman 9:52 Yeah, but they're also both, DC and Rogan are like big kids. They love it.

Dana White 9:57 100%.

Lex Fridman 9:57 They really love it.

Dana White 9:58 Well, everybody does. I mean, if you look at... It's- it's the difference between our commentary and what I feel their commentary was. We don't hire paid talking heads. We hire people that have actually been in it, done it, love it, and are- are- are super pa- super passionate about the sport.

Lex Fridman 10:15 Yeah.

Dana White 10:15 And- and I would say that none of them that ever covered the sport back then were. The- the... I don't know if that was Marv Albert or what Al- Albert brother that was, but he sounded like he's a fan of the sport or... Anyway, w- w- uh, you got me-

Lex Fridman 10:29 Really.

Dana White 10:30 You- you got me on this and I-

Lex Fridman 10:31 Clearly planted.

Dana White 10:31 ... once I get on this, I- I lose my mind.

Lex Fridman 10:33 (laughs) Maybe we wouldn't- we wouldn't have a UFC if- if they didn't fuck it up so bad and (laughs) for the Tyson fuck-up (laughs) .

Dana White 10:39 It would be different. You're not wrong. You're not wrong. It would be different. There's no doubt about it. All those experiences growing up being a boxing fan helped create what the UFC is today.

Lex Fridman 10:49 You know, it's interesting 'cause humans have been fighting for millennia. And it seems like with the UFC, the rate of innovation is just insane. In these last three decades, it seems like we've discovered how to do unarmed combat faster and better than- than at any time in human history.

Dana White 11:09 I agree with you 100%. Um, the first UFC happened in 1993, right? Martial art versus martial art.

Lex Fridman 11:16 Yeah.

Dana White 11:16 And now over the last 30 years, martial arts has evolved faster than... You know what I mean? And- and- and like you just said, combat sports, fighting, whatever you wanna call it, martial arts, it has evolved so much in 30 years, more than the last 300

Dana White 11:35 years.

Lex Fridman 11:35 What did you think when you saw UFC 1 with Royce?

Dana White 11:39 I remember everybody talking that this fight was gonna happen and there was gonna be no rules and all this other stuff. And we're like, "There's no way. That's bullshit." And then we ended up at some guy's house that night in Boston and- and watching it and it was happening and it was fun and it was exciting and everything else. And then, uh, and then I sort of fell off after that. The first one I- I- I watched, but I w- I was too big of a boxing fan. Plus, once grappling started taking over and, you know, by grappling meaning the wrestling and the... and- and the jujitsu guys just laid there.

Lex Fridman 12:09 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 12:09 You know, I- I completely lost interest.... it's funny that, that I'm having this conversation with you right now, because last night, I was out last night with my friends and we were talking about, um... 'Cause one, one of my buddies who's a host here in town-

Lex Fridman 12:22 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 12:22 ... just did jujitsu for the first time. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 12:25 Nice.

Dana White 12:25 Yesterday.

Lex Fridman 12:26 Yeah.

Dana White 12:26 And he was like-

Lex Fridman 12:27 Did he get his ass kicked or-

Dana White 12:28 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when you first go in-

Lex Fridman 12:30 Yeah.

Dana White 12:30 ... our first jujitsu lesson, me, Lorenzo, and Frank was with John Lewis.

Lex Fridman 12:34 Nice.

Dana White 12:34 And I remember thinking, "Holy shit. I, I, I can't believe that I'm, you know, 28 years old and this is the first time I'm experiencing this, that, that another human being could do this to me-

Lex Fridman 12:50 Yeah.

Dana White 12:51 ... on the ground." It is such an eye-opening, mind-blowing experience when you do it for the first time. And then you become completely addicted to it. And, you know, we were training three, four days a week, trying to kill each other. And, and, uh, me and the Fertittas. A- and that's how we fell in love with the sport. I think that first time you- that you do jujitsu, it's like the red pill and the blue pill in The Matrix.

Lex Fridman 13:17 (laughs)

Dana White 13:17 Do you wanna believe that this is the world (laughs) that you live in?

Lex Fridman 13:20 Yeah.

Dana White 13:20 Or do you wanna see what the real world looks like? (laughs)

Lex Fridman 13:22 Jujitsu's a real red pill.

Dana White 13:24 It really is.

Lex Fridman 13:25 You realize, "Holy shit."

Dana White 13:26 It really is.

Lex Fridman 13:26 "All that shit talking I've been doing about me being a badass-

Dana White 13:30 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 13:30 ... you realize you're not."

Dana White 13:31 100%.

Lex Fridman 13:32 You get dominated by another human being-

Dana White 13:33 Right.

Lex Fridman 13:33 ... and you realize, "No."

Dana White 13:35 And I mean dominate. I mean, completely treat you like you're a little kid.

Lex Fridman 13:38 Yeah. (laughs)

Dana White 13:41 Um, and then we had the opportunity to roll with a lot of different guys at the time because of the whatever. And, and we don't have a good relationship at all. But I'll tell you this, Frank Shamrock came in one day.

Lex Fridman 13:51 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 13:53 And Frank Shamrock had me in, uh, side control.

Lex Fridman 13:57 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 13:59 The pressure that this guy put on my chest made me tap.

Lex Fridman 14:03 Yeah.

Dana White 14:03 Felt like I, there was a car on my chest. And with zero effort from him. It was absolutely effortless. And when, when you, when you train with somebody that's at such a level when you're not-

Lex Fridman 14:17 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 14:17 ... it, it just, it is the most humbling, mind-blowing experience you can have as, especially as a man. But as a human being.

Lex Fridman 14:24 Do you remember... Just for fun, do you remember, like, what your go-to submission was? What-

Dana White 14:30 Yeah. So, uh, you know, when we first started out and started doing it, I had a pretty good guillotine in the beginning.

Lex Fridman 14:35 Yeah.

Dana White 14:35 So I'd catch a lot of people in guillotines and-

Lex Fridman 14:37 So you're okay being on, like, on bottom? So, like, your guard is pretty good.

Dana White 14:40 Yeah, I was okay with bottom. Yeah. I was okay with being on bottom. I was comfortable there. But you know what I never liked? I never liked gi.

Lex Fridman 14:46 Yeah.

Dana White 14:46 Like, we started fucking around with a gi in the beginning. We would... You know, that's how we started. And then once I took the gi off, I felt like I had no submissions 'cause I couldn't grab onto anything. So I, after that, I went all no gi and I, I ne- I never wanted to wear a gi.

Lex Fridman 15:01 And it's fascinating, 'cause no gi has become big now and there's a lot of interesting people. Like, I train with Gordon Ryan. And, like, the level there is just fascinating. It's become, like, this science and it looks like fighting now.

Dana White 15:13 Right.

Lex Fridman 15:13 It looks more like fighting. As opposed to, with the gi, sometimes it doesn't quite look like fighting.

Dana White 15:18 Right.

Lex Fridman 15:19 And I feel like it's, uh, transferrable to actual, like, MMA fighting. No gi stuff.

Dana White 15:24 Or street.

Lex Fridman 15:25 Street. Yeah.

Dana White 15:26 Right? I mean, if you're, if y- if you start off in your first year is, you're in a gi, man, you better hope guys got, like, winter jackets on or something if something happens in the street, 'cause it, it, I, I... In my opinion, I know all the jujitsu fucking people are gonna go crazy over this, but in my opinion, no gi is way better than gi.

Lex Fridman 15:44 That's why I also do judo, so in the street scenario, if you're comfortable on the feet and you can clinch and you can throw, you could... Because most of us wear clothing.

Dana White 15:55 Right.

Lex Fridman 15:55 Especially in Boston in the winter setting.

Dana White 15:57 Right. (laughs) Exactly.

Lex Fridman 15:57 So if you're comfortable on the feet, you could still do, uh, well there. The problem with jujitsu is most people are not comfortable on the feet. The sport jujitsu.

Dana White 16:05 Right.

Lex Fridman 16:05 Most people kinda wanna get to the ground as quickly as possible. So what'd you think of Royce at that time? Like, in the early... Like, what... 'Cause it blew a lot of people's minds that there's, like, more to this puzzle.

Dana White 16:17 100%. And, and the fact that you had, um, like, these guys like Ken Shamrock that were jacked, right?

Lex Fridman 16:25 Yeah.

Dana White 16:25 And you had all these wrestlers or, you know, the big, massive guys, uh, that they had in the different weight classes, and this skinny little dude like Royce was out there beating everybody. I mean, if you look at the way the, the Gracies played that, you couldn't have had a better advertisement for, for Gracie Jujitsu at the time.

Lex Fridman 16:42 But also, like, for MMA, because there's just, like, a lot of surprising elements. A lot of people's prediction was wrong.

Dana White 16:52 Right.

Lex Fridman 16:52 They didn't think the skinny guy would win and they're like, "Oh, shit. There's more to this."

Dana White 16:56 Well, it's the real beautiful thing about jujitsu. It's like, when you talk about... If you wanted to get your daughter into a martial art, "Should I put my daughter into karate or should I put her into this?" You put your daughter into jujitsu 100% because it's not about size or strength, it's about technique.

Lex Fridman 17:12 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 17:13 And you give your daughter a bunch of jujitsu and a little bit of Muay Thai, you know?

Lex Fridman 17:19 Yeah, she becomes dangerous.

Dana White 17:20 It's, like, the perfect combo.

Lex Fridman 17:22 Yeah.

Dana White 17:22 'Cause you could put your son into anything. Your son can get into some-

Lex Fridman 17:25 Yeah.

Dana White 17:25 ... you know? Boys are gonna learn how to fight and they're gonna do whatever. But girls are, girls are different. And the other thing, I mean, this is the biggest selling point for jujitsu for women. I mean, when a woman, no matter how big, how small, can put a guy to sleep in three and a half seconds.

Lex Fridman 17:39 What's the origin story of the UFC as it is today, as you have created it, and you and, uh, Lorenzo and Fertitta brothers built it?

Dana White 17:48 It started with, with John Lewis, you know, and, and, and seeing him. Frank and I were out one night at the Hard Rock-

Lex Fridman 17:54 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 17:54 ... and John Lewis was there. And he's like, "Oh, that's that ultimate fighting guy." And I was like, "I know him." And Frank's like, "I've always wanted to learn, uh, ground fighting." And I said, "Yeah, I'm interested in it too." So we went over, we talked to John Lewis, and we made an appointment.... to wrestle with them on Monday.

Lex Fridman 18:14 Yeah.

Dana White 18:15 And we told Lorenzo, and Lorenzo came with us. And, uh, that was the beginning of the end. I mean, we- we started doing jujitsu, and- and started to meet a lot of the fighters. And we were like, you know, at the time, there was this stigma attached to the sport that these guys were, you know, despicable, disgusting human beings, but, which was the furthest thing from the truth. These- these kids, uh, had all gone to college, had college degrees most of them, 'cause they wrestled in college. And we started to meet some, and we loved the different stories. You had Chuck Liddell, who, you know, had this mohawk, looks like an ax murderer, and, uh, but graduated from Cal Poly-

Lex Fridman 18:51 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 18:52 ... uh, you know, w- with honors in accounting, you know.

Lex Fridman 18:55 Yeah.

Dana White 18:55 Then you had Matt Hughes, who was this farm boy, you know, literally lived on a farm and so there were all these cool stories-

Lex Fridman 19:02 Yeah.

Dana White 19:02 ... with all these good people, that weren't what people thought they were. And Lorenzo and I always felt like, "There's something here, that if this thing was done the right way, this could be big." And what was crazy was, I, uh, I was in a contract negotiation with Bob Meyrowitz, the old owner of the UFC, over Tito's contract, um, and Chuck Liddell. They didn't even want Chuck Liddell in the UFC.

Lex Fridman 19:28 Wow.

Dana White 19:28 I was trying to get Chuck in the UFC and they didn't even want him.

Lex Fridman 19:31 Wow.

Dana White 19:32 And we got into this contract dispute over Tito's contract, and Bob Meyrowitz said, "You know what? There is no more money, okay? I don't even know if I'll even be able to put on one more event." And he like flipped out. When we hung up the phone, I literally picked up the phone and called Lorenzo, and I said, "Hey, I just got off the phone with Bob Meyrowitz, the owner of the UFC. I think they're in trouble, and I think we can buy it, and I think we should. You should reach out to him." So Lorenzo, uh, Lorenzo called Meyrowitz and I don't know how, I don't remember the timeline, but within the next two months, we ended up owning the UFC for two million bucks.

Lex Fridman 20:07 And, uh, you've said that you fought a lot of battles during that time.

Dana White 20:10 Uh-oh. I mean, the early days of- of b- building this company and building the sport, it was the wild wild west, man. It was- it was crazy back then. Um, yeah, I- I was literally at war every day with all different types of people. Plus, traditionally, there's bad people that are involved in- in fighting, man. There's lots of bad people. And we had to sift our way through that for the first seven, eight years.

Lex Fridman 20:36 So in general, there's like corruption and the people kind of steal money. They're thinking just about themselves, not the bigger business.

Dana White 20:42 Well, let me tell you about this. I mean, I- I- I wanna say it was The Netherlands. I don't remember exactly where. It could've been Amsterdam. I mean, MMA promoters were like car bombing each other and-

Lex Fridman 20:52 (laughs)

Dana White 20:53 ... then the other guy shot up the other guy's house-

Lex Fridman 20:55 Wow.

Dana White 20:55 ... with machine guns, and that's the kind of shit that was going on.

Lex Fridman 20:58 Yeah.

Dana White 20:59 I'll tell you this story. So Affliction. Do you remember Affliction?

Lex Fridman 21:04 Yeah. Uh-huh.

Dana White 21:04 So there was a guy. Uh, I wanna say, I want, I want to say his name was Tom- Todd Beard or something like that. This guy used to text me every day when they were, when they started their MMA thing-

Lex Fridman 21:17 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 21:17 ... telling me he was gonna kill me.

Lex Fridman 21:19 Like legitimately threat us?

Dana White 21:20 Legitimately gonna kill me.

Lex Fridman 21:22 Yeah.

Dana White 21:22 "You punk motherfucker."

Lex Fridman 21:24 Yeah.

Dana White 21:24 "I'm gonna fucking kill you. You don't understand who I am and what I've done," and this and that. I think this guy would get drunk or do drugs every night or whatever his deal was. This guy would call me, text me, and threaten my life every day. I used to go, "Fuck you." And this and that.

Lex Fridman 21:37 You said "Fuck you" (laughs) like-

Dana White 21:39 Oh yeah.

Lex Fridman 21:39 Oh man.

Dana White 21:40 Especially back then.

Lex Fridman 21:41 Yeah.

Dana White 21:42 But yeah, but th- I mean that this is the type of shit that went on in the early days. Th- these, this guy, this guy who was one of the owners of Affliction was like one of the, you know, not- not a good human. Let's put it that way.

Lex Fridman 21:53 What about the business side of it? It's tough to make money in this business.

Dana White 21:57 Yeah, we weren't making money, so you know, trying to build this thing, corrupt, um, corrupt, uh, the guys that worked for In Demand Pay-Per-View at the time, uh, were not good dudes, you know, and that thing was a fucking total monopoly. God, I wish I could remember his name right now. He used to run In Demand and he was a fucking bad guy. Then he- then he comes over and starts running DirecTV, who we always had a great relationship with.

Lex Fridman 22:28 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 22:28 And he's the reason we left DirecTV and said, "Fuck it, we'll just go streaming then." Yeah, I don't remember his name. I'd have to ask Lorenzo.

Lex Fridman 22:38 So in general, just in this whole space, there's a lot of-

Dana White 22:40 Yeah, it's just-

Lex Fridman 22:41 ... shady people.

Dana White 22:42 ... everybody you deal with is... you're dealing with a lot of, lot of, lot of different forces and- and- and your- your- your hands are in a lot of different businesses, uh, you know, from the venue business to the merchandise business, to the video game business, uh, the pay-per-view business. You know, the list goes on and on of all the different types of... the production business, of all these different... You know, when I first started this, I, uh, we had a production team. That was the production team that was in it before we bought it. So there was this s- there was this incident with Phil Baroni, where Phil Baroni, we did an interview with him, and Baroni flips out-

Lex Fridman 23:24 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 23:25 ... in the interview, when they're interviewing him, and goes crazy. And I thought it was awesome.

Lex Fridman 23:30 (laughs)

Dana White 23:30 So I'm like-

Lex Fridman 23:31 Yeah.

Dana White 23:31 ... "We're gonna leave this in. We're gonna leave this interview in." And the- and the production guys were arguing with me. They're like, "We can't leave this in. This is totally unprofessional." And I s- I said, "I don't give a shit. This is, this is what we're doing. We're gonna, we're gonna do this and clip it like this and do it like that." We're sitting in the venue that night, and I lean over to Lorenzo 'cause the fight's coming up, I go, "Wait til you see this fucking interview with Baroni." They didn't fucking do it. They didn't do it. These guys were guys that were freelance guys that worked for Showtime at the time or one of the, something like that.

Lex Fridman 24:03 Oh, such a mess.

Dana White 24:03 I literally went, got up from my fucking seat, went back there, kicked the fucking door of the truck open, and I said, "You motherfuckers. You ever do that again and I'll fire every fucking one of you." Let's just put it this way. I ended up firing every one of them anyway, and- and going with a whole new crew, but the- these were the type of things that early on, you know, there's so much stuff. I mean, I could sit here for fucking three days and walk you through all the stuff that used to go on back in those days, uh, but it was the wild wild west, man.

Lex Fridman 24:30 But how'd you figure out, how'd you know how to-... deal with all this mess. First of all, to fire people, to fire people that aren't doing a good job, all that. Like, how to be a leader, how to be-

Dana White 24:38 Well, that's the thing too. I mean-

Lex Fridman 24:40 ... a business leader.

Dana White 24:40 ... get, de- yet, getting in, in the early days, there was two employees. Me and another girl that you, that you, that worked for me, for my company before I started doing this. And then we slowly started to bring people on and you start to build a team. Then before you know it, we had 10 people. I mean, we used to do our Christmas parties back then too. There'd be eight to 10 people at our Christmas party, you know. Um, but a lot of it is, uh, you learn as you go, you know. You know what me and the Fertittas knew about production when we bought this UFC?

Lex Fridman 25:09 Mm.

Dana White 25:09 We had, like... I wanna say we had two or three weeks to pull off of an event. This is what we knew about production.

Lex Fridman 25:15 Really?

Dana White 25:15 Jack shit. So we had to dive in and we had to learn it. We had to figure it out. And we, um, we knew what we wanted. We knew what we liked. We knew what, what we were looking for. Um, it's just about building, building a good team. And I think that's one of the things if, if you wanna talk about what I've accomplished in the last, you know, 25 years of my life, I've been really good at building teams.

Lex Fridman 25:39 Already have a vision of what you want the final thing to look like, and then-

Dana White 25:42 Well-

Lex Fridman 25:42 ... build the team that can bring that to life.

Dana White 25:43 100%. You, you, well, you, you, you have to have the vision. Withi- without the vision, there's nothing. So that, that's sort of what I do. Um-

Lex Fridman 25:53 Yeah.

Dana White 25:54 ... I, I, I am the vision part of th- of this thing. We're gonna open a, a PI in Mexico, we're gonna, uh, do this, we're gonna do that, you know. And then, uh, and then you, you build the team to, to come in and help execute.

Lex Fridman 26:09 A lot of people that do, uh, fighting promotions fail. You succeeded against long odds. Uh, what's the secret to your success? If you were just looking back over the years?

Dana White 26:20 Well, the secret to success, I would say, first of all is passion and consistency. You have to love what you do, you have to get up every day and gr-... I, I, I s-... I get here every day at 9:30 in the morning. When we sold in 2016, a lot of people in the company made a lot of money and they all took off and they retired.

Lex Fridman 26:43 Yeah.

Dana White 26:44 Right? Um, other than the Fertittas, I made the most money. I'm still here. I get here at 9:30 every morning. Last night I left here at 8:30.

Lex Fridman 26:53 Yeah.

Dana White 26:54 You know, and I don't know how late I'm gonna be here tonight-

Lex Fridman 26:56 Yeah.

Dana White 26:56 ... but I love what I do. We get up every day and grind. I work just as hard now as I did back then. The difference between back then and now is I don't have to do a bunch of the shit that I don't really like to do, like budget meetings. I don't like budget meetings. I sat through enough fucking budget meetings. I'm... Horrible-

Lex Fridman 27:16 Yeah.

Dana White 27:16 ... budget meetings. Horrible.

Lex Fridman 27:17 Yeah.

Dana White 27:17 You know, we're losing, you know, millions of dollars a year and I'm in these, in these budget meetings. Um, you know, so I get to pick and choose what I do these days.

Lex Fridman 27:27 Yeah.

Dana White 27:27 Back in the early days, you don't get to pick and choose. You have to be, uh, involved in everything.

Lex Fridman 27:32 Yeah. So costs, you're just looking at costs-

Dana White 27:35 100%.

Lex Fridman 27:35 ... and stuff.

Dana White 27:35 You literally go through line by line every fucking-

Lex Fridman 27:40 Yeah.

Dana White 27:40 ... number in the company and where did the money go and how can we save costs? How can we do this better? How can we... You know. They are, they, they, they are brutal and they're multiple times a week and-

Lex Fridman 27:53 Probably helps to deeply appreciate how much this shit costs though.

Dana White 27:56 100%. Well, you have to know that.

Lex Fridman 27:57 Yeah.

Dana White 27:58 In the early days when you start your business, you have these people who, when I hear them say, "You know what? I, uh, I wanna work for myself. I wanna create my own schedule and I wanna do all the..."

Lex Fridman 28:10 Yeah.

Dana White 28:11 It just, it's, it... If, if that's your thought process going into it, you're never gonna be successful. You have to pay attention to every single detail of the business early on. You're involved in everything. There's no days off, there's no birthdays, there's no fucking Christmas, there's none of that shit. I literally moved the birth of my second son for a Chuck Liddell fight.

Lex Fridman 28:30 (laughs)

Dana White 28:30 We had a Chuck Liddell fight coming up and I... And they're like, "Yeah, your son's gonna be born on this date." And I'm like, "Yeah, that's not gonna work."

Lex Fridman 28:36 (laughs) Yeah.

Dana White 28:37 We're gonna have to take him earlier.

Lex Fridman 28:38 Yeah.

Dana White 28:39 So they literally gave my wife a C-section and, and, and took my son early.

Lex Fridman 28:44 You were all in.

Dana White 28:45 All in, yeah.

Lex Fridman 28:46 And, uh, the fascinating thing, like you said, you, uh, you've said that you could care less about money. You're doing this for, for the love of it.

Dana White 28:55 Yeah. I was doing this when I was broke-

Lex Fridman 28:57 Yeah.

Dana White 28:58 ... and I'm doing this now and I'm not broke. I'm doing this because I love it. And I, and I, I feel like there's so much more to do, and this is truly my passion in life. It's like the Sphere. We're doing the Sphere. Why? Why would I do the Sphere? It's gonna cost me a bunch of money. It's, it's, it's really challenging. Um, most people think it can't be pulled off. And, uh, you're looking at weird angles, different things going on inside other than the fight and all this other stuff. But yeah, I'm doing it because it's awesome and it's challenging and it's hard.

Lex Fridman 29:31 (laughs)

Dana White 29:31 And I think that if-

Lex Fridman 29:32 Yeah.

Dana White 29:32 ... anybody can do it right, it's us. So why not take that challenge?

Lex Fridman 29:37 It's actually why I'm here. I'm going to the Sphere for the first time 'cause I'm hanging out with Darren Aronofsky, who put together the thing that's in there now. And I can't believe you're thinking of... I don't know how you're gonna solve that puzzle.

Dana White 29:48 There's many puzzles to solve for this one.

Lex Fridman 29:51 (laughs) Okay.

Dana White 29:51 Many puzzles.

Lex Fridman 29:52 Uh, so how... Can you speak to that? Like what, uh, are interesting challenges that you're encountering?

Dana White 29:59 Yeah, so there's a lot. So you have the octagon, right? And then behind it is the world's biggest screen ever.

Lex Fridman 30:06 Yeah.

Dana White 30:06 Right? So what is the theme? How do you program it? First of all, it's super expensive to shoot and, and, and, uh, you know, the format for the Sphere. Um, angles. We were talking about, um... Today, I just had a big meeting today, um, about the Sphere this afternoon, and making sure that all my departments, all the details that I want all start to come together here in the next two weeks. I want the creative, the commercial-... I have some goals. I will tell people as we get closer what I'm looking to achieve with this, other than putting on one of the greatest, most unique sporting events of all time, and probably the greatest combat sporting event of all time. Um, but yeah. There's... I mean, there's challenges. There's a laundry list of challenges for this thing. And, and not to mention the fact that it's on Indepen- uh, Mexican Independence Day.

Lex Fridman 31:03 (laughs)

Dana White 31:03 And we're gonna weave in the whole history of combat in Mexico-

Lex Fridman 31:09 Yeah.

Dana White 31:10 ... into this event.

Lex Fridman 31:11 Nice. S- but the production... I mean, this is hilarious, 'cause you were just talking about knowing nothing about production so, so many years ago.

Dana White 31:17 And now I'm tackling the Sphere, yeah.

Lex Fridman 31:19 The hardest production ever.

Dana White 31:20 Ever.

Lex Fridman 31:21 And that will be live?

Dana White 31:23 It'll be live.

Lex Fridman 31:24 (laughs)

Dana White 31:24 It'll be live on pay-per-view.

Lex Fridman 31:26 Yeah.

Dana White 31:27 It'll be live in the arena.

Lex Fridman 31:28 Yeah.

Dana White 31:29 And it will also be in movie theaters.

Lex Fridman 31:31 Nice.

Dana White 31:31 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 31:31 So there will be, uh... It will be shown... We'll be shown at the Sphere later too? Like, uh, will you try to create an experience-

Dana White 31:37 ESPN's doing a doc on it.

Lex Fridman 31:38 Nice.

Dana White 31:39 The Making of the Sphere, yeah.

Lex Fridman 31:41 Well, you're feeling good about it.

Dana White 31:42 Oh, yeah. I feel incredible about it.

Lex Fridman 31:45 (laughs)

Dana White 31:45 I, I can't wait. It's gonna be, it's gonna be fun.

Lex Fridman 31:48 I, I can't wait to see how you solve the puzzle.

Dana White 31:50 Thank you.

Lex Fridman 31:50 Another guy that I feel like could care less about the money is Joe Rogan. How important is he to the UFC, to the rise of the UFC, and what, in general, do you love about Joe?

Dana White 32:02 It's a fact. He doesn't care about money. And he did the first 13 shows for free for us.

Lex Fridman 32:08 (laughs) Yeah.

Dana White 32:08 You know what I mean? That was at a time when we were hurting, and he's like, "Wait a minute. You, you want me to do the commentary? You're, you're saying that I get to sit in the best seat in the house and watch these fights for free?"

Lex Fridman 32:18 (laughs) Yeah.

Dana White 32:18 "Yeah, I'm in."

Lex Fridman 32:19 Yeah.

Dana White 32:20 So, um, and then obviously, when we turned things around, we, we made it up to Joe. But Joe is... One of the things that I loved early on about... So I'll tell you the story. So we buy the UFC.

Lex Fridman 32:33 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 32:34 Um, they're based in New York. We're, we're moving the, the, the, the corporate offices to Vegas. So I have to fly out to New York, go into the offices, and, and, uh, start going through everything and figuring out what needs to come back to Vegas and what we can just throw away. So they literally had a, a VHS machine and a TV, and there were a million tapes in this place, man.

Lex Fridman 32:56 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 32:57 So I didn't know what tapes were... "These definitely we have to keep," or, "These we don't need." So I had to sit there and go through every single tape. And I popped in a tape, and there was an interview on the Ivory Keenan Wayans Show, right?

Lex Fridman 33:11 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 33:11 The oldest Wayans brother.

Lex Fridman 33:12 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 33:12 And he had a talk show at the time. And he had Joe Rogan, the guy from Fear Factor-

Lex Fridman 33:17 (laughs)

Dana White 33:17 ... on the show.

Lex Fridman 33:18 Yeah.

Dana White 33:19 And he was promoting Fear Factor, but all he would talk about was UFC.

Lex Fridman 33:22 (laughs) Yeah, that's true.

Dana White 33:24 And he was talking about how people think that these guys in the martial arts movies are, are tough and could do it, and he was talking about what UFC fighters would do to these-

Lex Fridman 33:36 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 33:36 ... m- these martial arts guys if they ever got their hands on them. And I was like, "This is exactly what I need, a guy who isn't afraid to speak his mind and knows the sport inside and out, but more importantly, is super passionate about it and loves it." So when you see Joe Rogan on camera, and I was talking about the paid doc- talking heads that they had on HBO Boxing that were terrible. Joe Rogan does not come off as a paid talking head. He comes off as a guy who loves this. And so early on, no media would cover us. So I had to buy my way onto radio. So we'd do these radio tours, right? And they would drop us in. You'd have to get up at 3:30 in the morning in Vegas, on the West Coast. And they... 'Cause th- there, at 6:30 in the morning o-, uh, in New York and Boston and Florida and all these other places. So they'd drop you into these markets to do radio.

Lex Fridman 34:33 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 34:33 Right? And, um, the fighters were horrible at it. Fighters getting up at 3:30 in the morning, especially leading up to a fight, never good.

Lex Fridman 34:43 Yeah.

Dana White 34:43 They sound like they're tired, they act like they're tired, and they definitely act like they don't wanna be on there. And it, it's, it's bad radio. What you can't have is bad radio. So the only two people that could pull off these radio tours were me and Joe Rogan.

Lex Fridman 34:57 (laughs) Mm-hmm.

Dana White 34:58 So me and Joe Rogan would alternate doing these radio tours all over the country.

Lex Fridman 35:04 Just talking about fighting-

Dana White 35:05 Exactly.

Lex Fridman 35:05 ... talking about what this whole thing is.

Dana White 35:07 100%.

Lex Fridman 35:07 Like, getting people excited.

Dana White 35:08 Two guys that are really into it and passionate about it and love it, and, and can... And, and it's one of the things about Rogan too. When, when... Early on, nobody understood the ground game.

Lex Fridman 35:19 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 35:19 Joe Rogan would walk you through what was happening literally before it would happen. He would tell you the setup, what was gonna come next, and everything, and just absolutely articulate it perfectly, brilliantly, and people at home started to understand then. The, the impact that Joe Rogan has had and continues to have on this sport is immeasurable. He is the biggest podcaster in the world, and he is on the UFC, uh, pay-per-views, you know, 14 times a year, and he's always talking about the sport. It's immeasurable, um, what this guy has, has, has done for this company and the sport.

Lex Fridman 36:00 Yeah, still to this day. Like, I'll have dinner with him offline, he'll just talk fighting.

Dana White 36:04 Yep.

Lex Fridman 36:04 He just loves it.

Dana White 36:05 It's true.

Lex Fridman 36:06 Lo- loves every aspect of it.

Dana White 36:07 Yep. Joe Rogan is, is, is one of those guys. I saw that early on when... Why would you go after the Fear Factor guy-

Lex Fridman 36:15 Yeah.

Dana White 36:15 ... you know, to be such a key component to not only the company, but to the sport? I saw it in the fucking interview on Ivory Keenan Wayans:

Lex Fridman 36:28 I value loyalty a lot. And I remember there was a moment, not too long ago, maybe a year ago, when I was sitting with Joe and he had a phone call with you. Joe was getting canceled for something.... and, uh, they didn't want him commentating the fights. And you on the phone offered your resignation over this. I got teary-eyed over that. That's such a... You're a good man, you know?

Dana White 36:58 Thank you.

Lex Fridman 36:59 That was powerful.

Dana White 37:01 Anybody who is with me, has been with me, knows when you're with me, you're with me. It's a two-way street. It's not a-

Lex Fridman 37:09 Yeah.

Dana White 37:09 ... it's not a one-way street. Um, I'm not one of these guys that, uh, is gonna roll over and... Uh, it's like going through COVID. Um, I wasn't laying any of these peop- some of these people have been with me for 20 years. We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna lay them off? Mm-mm. This motherfucker will burn-

Lex Fridman 37:29 (laughs)

Dana White 37:29 ... burn-

Lex Fridman 37:30 Yeah.

Dana White 37:30 ... before I would do that to my people.

Lex Fridman 37:32 Oh, yeah.

Dana White 37:32 It just, it just never th- none of that type of stuff-

Lex Fridman 37:35 Yeah.

Dana White 37:35 ... is ever going to happen while I'm here. I can't say what's gonna happen when I leave, but when I'm here, the people who are with me and have been with me, they, they know exactly what's up, and Joe knows what's up, and, and, and, and, and it's, and again, it's a two-way street. Joe Rogan has been very loyal to me, and I am very loyal to Joe Rogan.

Lex Fridman 37:57 Lorenzo, another guy you have close friendship with. You seem to have been extremely effective together as, as business partners. What's, what's the magic behind that?

Dana White 38:06 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 38:06 How can you explain that?

Dana White 38:07 I love him. Lorenzo and I work really well together because we have two different personalities, right? I'm the guy that always... I'm, I'm going here. Lorenzo is always here, right? You could walk in a room and say, "Lorenzo, you just lost $10 million. Lorenzo, you just won $10 million." Burp. It never changes. And I'm a guy that goes like this, right? So y- we, we almost balance each other out. There's a lot of things that he's really fucking good at, and there's a lot of things that I'm really fucking good at, and they're both on the opposite sides of the spectrum.

Lex Fridman 38:41 So that level-headed thing was useful when the UFC was losing money, and it was unknown whether it's gon- gonna survive-

Dana White 38:49 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 38:49 ... those low points.

Dana White 38:50 100%. What's incredible when you think of the sto- the story of the UFC, um, at the time, the casino business was cranking, right? And Station Casinos was killing it. And Stations, their money from Stations is what was funding the UFC. Then in, uh, the '08, '09 crash, the UFC was killing it in '08 and '09, and, you know, the casino businesses were hurting.

Lex Fridman 39:19 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 39:20 So timing on everything, the way that it all worked out, couldn't have worked out better for them, um, and obviously for all of us. When you think about the UFC and how big it is and how far it reaches and how many people it touches, the Fertittas brothers made a $2 million investment, then put in, like, another $44 million, and look at how many lives that investment has changed over the last 25 years. It's fascinating.

Lex Fridman 39:55 And it's also crazy just, forget the business of it, just the effect it has on the history of humanity in terms of this is what we do. We're descendants of apes that fight. And this is, like, the organizations that catalyze the de- the innovation in how we fight.

Dana White 40:12 Right.

Lex Fridman 40:12 It's crazy.

Dana White 40:12 So-

Lex Fridman 40:12 It m- it created a whole new sport.

Dana White 40:15 That, that people all over the world participate in now. Literally, there isn't a place on Earth that we can't get a fighter from now.

Lex Fridman 40:23 You said, uh, in the UFC 299 post-fight press conference that, um, sometimes fighters might complain that, you know, they get matched up, uneven odds, but that's actually when legends are made. Uh, I think you gave Dustin Poirier as an example. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? Like, what makes a legend? What makes greatness in a fight?

Dana White 40:45 So behind the scenes, fighters are a very paranoid bunch of people. They're very paranoid. And there's been this, this, this theme with fighters where they're trying to get me beat, right?

Lex Fridman 41:01 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 41:03 We don't determine who wins and loses. If we did, we'd be the WWE, okay?

Lex Fridman 41:08 Yeah.

Dana White 41:08 Um, you do. I'm the bells and whistles guy. I make sure that as many people that we can possibly let know that you're fighting on Saturday know that you're fighting on Saturday. Who you are, who you're going against, and why people should give a shit. That's what I do, right?

Lex Fridman 41:25 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 41:26 Then the night you show up, I put on the best live event that I possibly can, and I put on the best television show that I possibly can. Once that door shuts, it's all up to you. You determine whether you lose or not. And if you get into a position where you become so paranoid that you think that the powers that be here are against you, and you, you, you try to steer yourself away from certain fights... And, and that, that's one of the big things that happens in these other organizations. In these other organizations, the inmates run the asylum.

Lex Fridman 42:11 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 42:12 Right? So if they don't wanna fight bad enough, these other companies don't push, and they don't do this, and they don't... We put on the best possible matchups that we can make. And in this business, you might be an older fighter, but if you're still ranked in the top 10, there's young guys coming for you.

Lex Fridman 42:33 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 42:33 Killers. Young killers are coming out, and they want your position, right? So you being the, the, the veteran that you are have to prepare yourself-... to go in and, you know, everybody was saying when we made that fight with Saint Denis that Poirier was in big trouble. Po- da da da da da. That's awesome.

Lex Fridman 42:55 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 42:55 That- that helps build the entire thing that Poirier... And then Poirier goes out and does what he did that night.

Lex Fridman 43:03 Yes.

Dana White 43:03 That's what makes fucking legends.

Lex Fridman 43:06 It's interesting, 'cause, like, sometimes being the underdog is a really good thing for the long term story of who you are as a fighter.

Dana White 43:13 Especially when you're a big name and, uh, a name that people recognize and a name that people know and, you know? And they're like, "Oh, man." I remember Israel Adesanya and- and- and, uh, Sean Strickland.

Lex Fridman 43:23 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 43:24 100 out of 100 people knew for a fact that Israel was gonna win that fight.

Lex Fridman 43:30 Yeah. Yeah.

Dana White 43:31 And here comes Strickland. And- and we could go on for days with this, you know what I mean? That is what creates legendary moments, legendary fights, and it's what builds stars and legends.

Lex Fridman 43:41 I mean, arguably, um, Conor McGregor with Jose Aldo.

Dana White 43:45 Yep. Conor McGregor with a bunch of people in the beginning.

Lex Fridman 43:47 (laughs)

Dana White 43:47 People said he couldn't wrestle, people said he wouldn't be able-

Lex Fridman 43:49 Yeah.

Dana White 43:50 ... to defend a take down. Um, blah, blah, blah, blah. Nate Diaz against Conor McGregor.

Lex Fridman 43:54 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 43:54 You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman 43:55 Mm-hmm. And, uh, and Conor McGregor against Khabib.

Dana White 43:59 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 43:59 Underdog probably, but if you won, there's an opportunity to win. If you won, that's- that's legend forming. He's now in the conversation for the greatest of all time-

Dana White 44:10 Yep.

Lex Fridman 44:10 ... without argument.

Dana White 44:11 And if you look at the way that Khabib ran through so many people-

Lex Fridman 44:15 Yeah.

Dana White 44:16 ... Conor hung in there, you know-

Lex Fridman 44:17 Yeah. It could have been.

Dana White 44:19 ... and- and made a fight of it.

Lex Fridman 44:19 It could

Lex Fridman 44:20 have been. What do you think about that matchup? It's one of the- one of the greats- one of the great matchups that you've made, Conor McGregor versus Khabib.

Dana White 44:28 Yeah, I mean, at the time, I was incredibly criticized for putting together the spot that had the- the scene with the bus in it.

Lex Fridman 44:39 Oh, yeah.

Dana White 44:40 You know, you know how the fucking media is. But they were saying that I was pandering to the- to the- you know, to the violence that happened and trying to... No, I'm telling you a story. Telling you a story of how we got here and how big this fight is and how bad the blood is between these guys. And, I mean, I think that's what we do the best job at, is telling the fucking stories of why... I- I... We go into Monday, it's fight week. We got a whole list of things that we do-

Lex Fridman 45:14 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 45:14 ... fight week, right? And then you get right down to the press conference on Thursday, the weigh-ins on Friday, and then the fight's on Saturday. Now, my people fly back home, they go to bed on Sunday night, and it's Groundhog Day. We wake up again on Monday, and it starts all over again. Every weekend, every Saturday for a year.

Lex Fridman 45:35 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 45:35 So, there's lots of stories that need to be told, there's lots of... When you think about what I compete with, whatever takes your attention on a Saturday night is my competitor.

Lex Fridman 45:47 So you're always trying to build a foundation for great stories. And, like, if the fighters step up, they step up, and they can together create greatness.

Dana White 45:55 That's it. That's exactly right.

Lex Fridman 45:57 Yeah.

Dana White 45:57 So, when we are aligned, like, when you get to the UFC, I mean, you just saw it with MVP, um, you're gonna see it with Kayla Harrison and, um, so many others that- that- that have come from other organizations and they get here. They notice immediately the difference between fighting here and fighting wherever they were before. It's not even comparable to the impact it has on you when you leave whatever organization you're with and you come to the UFC. And I think that it gives them a sense of, "Holy shit, I- I- I can really..." I mean, MVP, when he came, I mean, there were probably more people at the press conference than any fight he'd ever fought in in- in- in Bellator. You know what I mean? And you feel that energy and you feel the- you feel the difference of the impact of being here, and I think it takes a lot of these guys to another level.

Lex Fridman 46:49 Yeah, just the aura of it, like-

Dana White 46:50 100%.

Lex Fridman 46:50 ... this is where you're supposed to step up. Yeah, it's the way people feel about TED Talks when they're (laughs) -

Dana White 46:55 Right.

Lex Fridman 46:56 ... giving lectures.

Dana White 46:57 Right.

Lex Fridman 46:57 This is your moment. You get 15 minutes, and let's see if you better-

Dana White 47:00 So true.

Lex Fridman 47:00 ... say some interesting shit. Yeah, and Kayla Harrison, by the way, is a badass. I can't wait to see what happens there.

Dana White 47:05 She was walking around with, like, this sleeveless shirt the night of the fights, and holy shit.

Lex Fridman 47:09 (laughs)

Dana White 47:10 She is jacked, man. It's crazy.

Lex Fridman 47:12 Two-time Olympic gold medalist.

Dana White 47:13 Right.

Lex Fridman 47:13 You- you don't fuck with those people. You wi- you win a medal, you're- you're- you're made of something special.

Dana White 47:18 So true, especially in judo.

Lex Fridman 47:20 Yeah. Especially in American judo where it's not-

Dana White 47:23 100%.

Lex Fridman 47:23 You don't have many training partners that are great, so you-

Dana White 47:25 That's what I'm saying.

Lex Fridman 47:25 ... better fucking work for it.

Lex Fridman 47:27 Ridiculous question, but who is in the conversation for the greatest of all time?

Dana White 47:32 Jon Jones.

Lex Fridman 47:34 So you- you've talked about Jon Jones, but what are the metrics involved here?

Dana White 47:38 He's never been beat.

Lex Fridman 47:39 (laughs)

Dana White 47:39 He destroyed everybody at light heavyweight, which, at the time, was the toughest, uh, weight class, um, i- in the company, in the sport. And then, uh, he moved up to heavyweight, won easily-

Lex Fridman 47:52 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 47:52 ... at heavyweight, um, and- and- and when you look at a guy and you look at what he was doing outside the octagon at the same time, which shouldn't be part of it, shouldn't be part of the- the equation, but when you do, wow. Jon Jones, there's no debate. Nobody can debate who's the greatest of all time. It's absolutely, positively Jon Jones. He's never lost. Nobody... He's never been beat in the octagon, ever.

Lex Fridman 48:21 So that's one of the metrics, like, pure, sheer dominance. But there's others, right? There, you could... Losing sometimes is- is a catalyst for greatness.

Dana White 48:33 I don't disagree. But when you've never lost-

Lex Fridman 48:36 (laughs)

Dana White 48:36 ... right? It's this, uh, you've never lost. We- we've never found somebody... And- and all-

Lex Fridman 48:43 Yeah.

Dana White 48:43 The- the other thing is that you have to put, uh, factor in, too......is longevity.

Lex Fridman 48:48 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 48:49 How long he's, 'cause sometimes with a lot of these guys, the sport passes them by. You get younger guys that are faster, this, that, and the sport evolves. Nobody's been able to beat Jon Jones. Oh, and the other thing that you measure is, you know, when you said dominance, it's true. If you're this guy that has unbelievable power and you're just going in and you're just fucking knocking everybody out, and nobody's ever pulled you into the deep water before.

Lex Fridman 49:14 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 49:14 That was when my opinion of Jon Jones started to change. Gustafsson took him into the deep water. Gustafsson hit him with some shit he'd never been hit with. Gustafsson tested him and put Jon Jones in a place where I-I bet if you sat down and interviewed Jon Jones, going into the deep rounds of that, Jon Jones thought he was gonna die.

Lex Fridman 49:35 (laughs)

Dana White 49:35 You know what I'm saying?

Lex Fridman 49:36 And he was, he's willing to go there.

Dana White 49:37 And he kept going. He was, he was willing, willing to do whatever it took to win that fight.

Lex Fridman 49:44 And it breaks my heart because he beat DC, and DC is one of the greatest of all time.

Dana White 49:48 That's the thing too. And, and I believe that DC doesn't get the credit he deserves because of the Jon Jones thing. When you look at DC and what he's accomplished, right, and Jon Jones beat him twice.

Lex Fridman 49:59 Yeah.

Dana White 50:00 It's undeniable. You can hate all you want. Jon Jones was the greatest of all time.

Lex Fridman 50:05 Do you think, uh, Khabib was tested enough?

Dana White 50:09 I think that Khabib had the potential to be in the running for that. He didn't, he just didn't stick around li- first of all, he, he, he had injuries that, that, that, you know, he should have been where he got a lot sooner had he not had the injuries that he had and the setbacks in his career. But there's no doubt, Khabib is one of the all-time greats.

Lex Fridman 50:29 What's the, the good, the bad and the ugly of your relationship with Conor?

Dana White 50:33 There's literally no ugly. Conor McGregor has been an incredible partner to work with. Everybody thinks that Conor... If Conor showed up to things on time-

Lex Fridman 50:42 Yeah.

Dana White 50:42 ...there wouldn't be one fucking bad thing I could say about Conor.

Lex Fridman 50:44 Yeah.

Dana White 50:44 You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman 50:45 So it's not only being late to shit.

Dana White 50:46 If, if you fucking said, you put a gun to my fucking head, right, and said, "Don't lie, motherfucker. Tell me all the bad things about Conor McGregor," I'd say the guy doesn't show up on time. That's it.

Lex Fridman 50:57 That's it.

Dana White 50:57 If Conor McGregor showed up to shit on time, and sometimes he does, (laughs) sometimes he does, he'd be, he'd be, he's been a great partner. If you look at what a huge superstar he became, the fights that he was involved in. Let me tell you what Conor McGregor never did. We never walked in a room and said, "Conor, this guy just fell out. Um, we want you to fight this guy." And he was like, "No way, I'm not taking this fucking risk. I'm at this point in my career where my money, my this, my that." He was like, "Fuck it, let's do it." You know, he'd always say, "Let's do it." The other thing that Conor McGregor never did, no matter how big he was or whatever it was when we were heading into a fight, "Oh, Conor, this guy just fell out. Aldo fell out, we're looking for another." "Yeah, I'll do it, but I'm gonna need another fucking 200,000. I'm gonna need another million dollars. I'm gonna..." Conor McGregor never did that kind, chicken shit, you know, bullshit kind of stuff. He, he never did any of that. Conor was as solid a guy as you could possibly work with.

Lex Fridman 51:54 "Just fuck it, I'll do it."

Dana White 51:56 "I'll do it."

Lex Fridman 51:56 (laughs)

Dana White 51:58 Literally would... There's actually a scene 'cause we were filming something, I don't know if it was Embedded or what we were filming at the time. Me and Lorenzo walk into his house that he rented here in Vegas, and I'm pretty sure it was when Aldo fell out. And we're telling him this, that, and we're looking at some options. He says, "I'm going to the gym. When I'm done working out, let me know." You know, he just woke up out of bed, he's in his fucking underwear. And he gets hit with this, and he's like, "All right, I'm going to the gym. Let me know when I get out who I'm fighting." Doesn't care, doesn't wanna know, doesn't want any more money, nothing. Fucking shows up and he delivers.

Lex Fridman 52:33 Yeah.

Dana White 52:34 Yeah. So, you know, Conor has been incredibly successful. He's made a lot of money. And, you know, he's had his ups and downs outside and inside the octagon. But as, for a guy who was, you know, on the dole and was a plumber, he's actually a really smart businessman and he's been one of the best partners that I've ever had in the history of the sport.

Lex Fridman 52:55 Yeah, and an important part of the history of the UFC.

Dana White 52:57 Big.

Lex Fridman 52:58 He opened it up to all, all kinds of new guys.

Dana White 53:01 Yep. He literally, um, you know, set Europe, Australia, Canada, and many other parts of the world on fire, man. He, he, he, he, he was, uh, our, our first legit megastar.

Lex Fridman 53:16 And I personally think he doesn't get enough credit for just how good he was as a fighter. And people love to talk shit about Conor.

Dana White 53:22 So true.

Lex Fridman 53:23 I suppose that's part of his magic.

Dana White 53:24 And, and, but it, but it, but it comes with success.

Lex Fridman 53:27 Yeah.

Dana White 53:27 When you're successful, there's always people out there that are gonna talk shit. You know, you always have a bunch of know-nothing, do-nothing fucking losers-

Lex Fridman 53:35 (laughs) Yeah.

Dana White 53:36 ...that, that love to talk shit.

Lex Fridman 53:37 You think if you were to do it all over again, Khabib is the right matchup?

Dana White 53:41 Yeah. Uh, listen, you, you, the, the thing that you can't do is avoid matchups.

Lex Fridman 53:46 Yeah.

Dana White 53:47 You know what I mean? This is what we're talking about when you talk about being a legend. Conor McGregor needed Khabib. Khabib needed Conor McGregor. It's, it, you can hate each other as much as you want, but you have to fight these other legendary bad motherfuckers to, to yourself become a legend. I mean, it's like Jon Jones needed Ciryl Gane, right?

Lex Fridman 54:11 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 54:11 And Ciryl Gane needed Jon Jones, 'cause if Ciryl could have beat Jon, the first guy, if anybody can ever figure it out and beat Jon Jones, it's a big deal. And it's almost like your obligation as a fighter, right? And when you think about Jon Jones became who he is today, and the reason I'm sitting here telling you how great he is, because all these other guys gave him the opportunity-

Lex Fridman 54:35 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 54:36 ...to beat them. Right? Or they beat Jon. You, it's all about giving these other guys the opportunity. Saint Denis, right? Poirier gave him the opportunity....to come in and beat him. That's how this all works.

Lex Fridman 54:51 It's the two of them together, the two fighters together to

Dana White 54:54 You have to have them both. Listen, I could line up... I could line up a bunch of no-name bums that Jon Jones could run through. That's what they do in all the other organizations.

Lex Fridman 55:04 Yeah.

Dana White 55:04 Right? We would have nothing to fucking talk about right now.

Lex Fridman 55:08 That's why, luckily, a perfect record in the UFC is not as important as who you fought, how you fought.

Dana White 55:13 So true. But when you have a perfect record in the UFC-

Lex Fridman 55:18 Yeah. (laughs)

Dana White 55:19 ...holy shit, right?

Lex Fridman 55:21 Yeah.

Dana White 55:21 I mean, that's what you would... When-when you can have a perfect record in the UFC, you are absolutely one of the most special athletes on planet Earth.

Lex Fridman 55:31 You and Trump are friends. I was just talking to Ivanka last night about her experience at the... uh, at the... in the Miami event. She loves it. She's training too. You were talking about getting girls to train. She's training too.

Dana White 55:43 And the kids are training, yeah. Her father's the biggest fucking fight fan on the planet. Calls me all the time to talk about the fights, and-and, uh, Don Jr. said that I'm like the only guy on Earth that he bros out with. Like...

Lex Fridman 55:57 (laughs)

Dana White 55:57 ...you know, we-we... It's funny when you talk about how powerful fighting is, right? This last Miami event, the president of Ecuador and the president of Spain-

Lex Fridman 56:08 Wow.

Dana White 56:08 ...both posted about the fights, right? Um, Khabib beat Conor. Putin was on FaceTime before he even made it to the... to the locker room. Um, Trump, sitting president, ex-president, watching all the fights, calling, wants to talk about the fights. Um, Valentina Shevchenko, every time she goes home, she meets with the president of the country. The list goes on and on and on. The most powerful... Elon Musk, Zuckerberg. I mean, the list goes on and on and on. The most powerful people in the world are all obsessed with fighting.

Lex Fridman 56:42 When did you first discover that Trump loves fighting?

Dana White 56:44 So I first discovered that Trump was a big fight fan... Obviously, you saw him part of all the big... You're talking about how big boxing fans we were. He was a part of all the big fights back then. But, um, when we first bought the UFC, this thing was so bad, venues didn't even want us.

Lex Fridman 57:01 Hm.

Dana White 57:02 And we ended up doing, uh, uh, you know, our first event in Atlantic City at the Trump Taj Mahal. Now, think about this. At that time, Trump brand here, UFC brand. I mean, I can't go low enough. And, uh, he had us at his venue two times, back to back. Showed up for the first fight of the night and stayed till the last fight of the night. Then after that, any good thing that would ever happen to me in my career, Trump would reach out. Whether it was... We were on the front page of the New York Times at one time, and he said, "Congratulations, Dana. I always knew you guys were gonna do it." Little things like that, but that-that are big things and, uh, mean a lot, especially coming from a guy like him.

Lex Fridman 57:43 So he saw... He saw something in you, like, "This is gonna be..."

Dana White 57:46 100%. He definitely saw it. And, uh, then comes '15, '16, whenever it was, I don't remember. But he called me and he said, "Listen, if you don't wanna do this, I completely understand, but I would be honored if you would speak at the National Republican Convention for me." And I'm not a very political guy. You know what I mean? And everybody told me not to do it. "Do not do this." But I was like, "Why would I not do this? This guy's been-been great to me, you know?" And, uh, I did it. And our relationship is just like... You know what I mean? I consider Donald Trump to be one of my very, very good friends.

Lex Fridman 58:31 Any, uh, favorite stories?

Dana White 58:33 I mean, there's so many stories. I mean, o- (laughs) once... Once he-he-he won the election, like, I'd be at work and, uh, I'd be down the hall, was in the matchmaker room or whatever, and my secretary would yell, "The president's on the phone." Fucking come running down the hallway and grab the phone, and he'd wanna talk about the-the fight that was coming up or the fight that happened. Or I'd be in my car and, uh, I'd answer the phone. It's like, uh, "Hi, this is the White House. We have the president, uh, uh, uh-"

Lex Fridman 59:01 (laughs) Yeah.

Dana White 59:02 "...of the United States on the phone."

Lex Fridman 59:03 Yeah.

Dana White 59:03 You know, that's a trip when that first starts happening.

Lex Fridman 59:06 Yeah.

Dana White 59:06 And then, um, just to-to-to... to sum him up, this is the kind of guy that... You wanna talk about a fighter? This is the most resilient human being I've ever met. If you see the shit that this guy's going through publicly every day. And I'll call him on the phone as a friend and be like, "Hey, you good? How you doing?"

Lex Fridman 59:34 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 59:35 Unfazed. Unfazed. Like nothing's going on. And he'll start talking to me about this and that and all this other shit. One time. There's only been one time. I've never talked about this publicly, but one time, I called him and he was not good. He wa- he was a mess. And I've never heard him like that and I've never seen him like that, when, uh, Ivana died. The only time I've ever seen him fucked up. Obviously, as soon as I heard it, I reached out and I have never... Th- look at all the stuff that's gone on with Trump, all the bad stuff that they say. They're trying to attack him, they're trying to ruin him. Unfazed. I called him that day and he was... This is the first time I've ever seen that guy busted up and, and, and not good.

Lex Fridman 1:00:25 Well, that says something that that's the only time.

Dana White 1:00:27 100%.

Lex Fridman 1:00:28 'Cause that guy is, I mean, walking through fire.

Dana White 1:00:30 He does not get rattled. He, he will walk through fire. He's a absolute savage.

Lex Fridman 1:00:34 You think he wins the presidential election?

Dana White 1:00:36 I don't know, man. It's gonna depend on how this whole... I... Politics is the most dirtiest, scummiest thing on planet Earth, man, and, and who knows how this is all gonna play out. It's, it's all dirty, it's all ugly, and, you know, obviously...... I'm rooting for him and- and- and I'm behind him and- and I hope he does. Um, but we'll see.

Lex Fridman 1:00:56 What's dirtier? The, uh, the fighting game in the early days or politics?

Dana White 1:01:01 There's nothing dirtier than politics.

Lex Fridman 1:01:02 (laughs)

Dana White 1:01:03 Nothing. There's literally nothing dirtier.

Lex Fridman 1:01:05 All right. (laughs)

Dana White 1:01:06 It is the dirtiest thing on- on planet Earth.

Lex Fridman 1:01:08 Just wanted to get that on record.

Lex Fridman 1:01:09 Uh, another guy who doesn't seem to be fazed by the fire, I've gotten to know him, is Elon. I have to ask you this, a bit- a bit of fun. You were part of, um... thinking about putting together Zuck versus Elon.

Dana White 1:01:21 Right.

Lex Fridman 1:01:22 I trained with both. I did a phone call with Elon and you, when you- when we were training-

Dana White 1:01:27 I remember, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:01:29 ... on the mat. (laughs)

Dana White 1:01:29 Yep.

Lex Fridman 1:01:29 Uh, you really think that could've been a good fight?

Dana White 1:01:32 It would've been the biggest fight ever done.

Lex Fridman 1:01:34 The spectacle of it.

Dana White 1:01:35 Two of the most powerful, wealthiest men in the world, right? Lots of guys talk shit and go back and forth and sue each other and do all this stuff. These two guys were literally talking about facing each other in the octagon and fighting. There's nothing... And they're- they're in a business that's looked at as geeky. You know what I mean? They're- they're- they're tech nerds, they're this, they're that. These are two dudes that were willing to throw down and fight and, uh- and- and- and you know as well as I do, there's a lot of public speculation about this. I was taking serious real time in working on this thing.

Lex Fridman 1:02:09 Yeah.

Dana White 1:02:09 I mean, I had projections, I had numbers, I was looking at venues, I was on the phone with the fucking colosseum in Italy. You name it, I- I was in it. These guys were serious and this was something that was really gonna happen. And I'll tell you right now, the- in the short amount of time that it was, uh- it was going down, it was fun. I was having a blast with it.

Lex Fridman 1:02:30 What do you think about Tyson? Tyson fighting Jake Paul?

Dana White 1:02:34 I love Mike Tyson.

Lex Fridman 1:02:35 Yeah?

Dana White 1:02:35 And, uh, I- I'm- I'm not a fan of anybody fighting at- at our age. Um, but he's a grown man, obviously, and, you know, he's- he's gonna do what he's gonna do. But I- at least I know. I talked to, um... I talked to his wife a couple of days ago, and he's taking this serious and he's training for it. And, you know, so we'll see how it plays out.

Lex Fridman 1:02:59 Why do you think he fights still? Like, what is that about... Is there a broader lesson there about fighters?

Dana White 1:03:05 Well, I think that-

Lex Fridman 1:03:06 About great fighters?

Dana White 1:03:07 I think that Mike Tyson is actually one of those unique guys who has crossed over. Any of these other boxers-

Lex Fridman 1:03:13 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 1:03:13 ... th- the- from his era, they have no way of making money other than fighting. Mike Tyson's made a lot of money outside of fighting. I mean, Tyson still has that aura. You could be at a restaurant and he walks in and you're like, "Holy fuck, Mike Tyson's here." You know, he still has that type of aura and- and energy i- in a room. Um, and- and- and he makes lots of money outside of the ring. I- I just, I think that he ends up getting these offers that he can't refuse.

Lex Fridman 1:03:44 Oh, you think it's financial? So how much... I mean, it's a good question to ask. You work with a lot of fighters. For how many of them is it about money and for how many is it about the fact, the pure love of fighting?

Dana White 1:03:58 Well, the guys that get into it for the right reason, are the guys who get into it for greatness, 'cause you wanna be the fucking best, right? And, um, when you're in it for that reason-

Lex Fridman 1:04:11 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 1:04:12 ... right, you love it and you wanna be looked at as the best ever, and- and you have the talent, the money happens, right? Then you have other guys who get in it. I... Believe me, I've dealt with fighters who just wanted to be famous and just wanted to make money. You know what I mean? And it's... you know. Listen, it- it is what it is. It's- it's- it's your- it's your life and- and- and you live it the way that you want and- and do your thing. But the ones that are beloved are the guys who really wanna be fucking great. And they're the ones that are remembered and... I mean, when you look at Tyson in his early years when he came up under Cus D'Amato, I mean, he was a student of the game. He- he- he loved everything. He became completely infatuated with the fight game. Then, he became such a massive superstar. It's almost like the whole thing starts to turn on you.

Lex Fridman 1:04:59 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 1:04:59 You know, all the things that come at you at a young age and that kind of money and... It's- it's tough. It's tough to navigate and get through. And, you know, you- you say something like that and people are like, "Oh, poor him. He had fucking $100 million and couldn't..." At that age, and with all the shit that people talk and all the things that you gotta put up with and

Dana White 1:05:18 the fame.

Lex Fridman 1:05:19 Yeah.

Dana White 1:05:19 A lot of people deal with fame. Some people handle it really well and some people don't. And the perfect example, um, o- of that was Forrest Griffin and Stephan Bonnar.

Lex Fridman 1:05:30 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 1:05:31 You know, they fought that- that unbelievable fight on The Ultimate Fighter. Everything blew up after that. Forrest da- dealt with fame really well and- and- and Stephan did not.

Lex Fridman 1:05:42 That was a special fight.

Dana White 1:05:43 It really was.

Lex Fridman 1:05:44 What do you think attracted people to that fight? So that- that made... That was a big, uh, leap for the UFC.

Dana White 1:05:50 It was everything.

Lex Fridman 1:05:51 It was everything?

Dana White 1:05:52 It was everything.

Lex Fridman 1:05:52 Why do you think people loved that fight? What- what attracted people to that fight? Why did they change everything?

Dana White 1:05:58 Well, what happened that night is the- the rest of the show was a disaster.

Lex Fridman 1:06:02 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 1:06:02 Um, you know, we had the co-main event and the main event. Uh, uh, Diego Sanchez ran through Kenny Florian in seconds. Um, oh my god.

Lex Fridman 1:06:10 Yeah.

Dana White 1:06:10 That was- that was terrible and the fights that led up to that weren't anything to talk about either. Then Stephan and Forrest got in there and just went toe-to-toe in this unbelievable slugfest, live on free television, when cable still mattered. And what I heard was, at the time, you know, you had people picking up the phone going, "Are you watching this show?" And ... the- the numbers just started climbing. Then you got a razor thin decision. Who's gonna win? You got the crowd stomping their feet. It sounded like a train was going through the place and everybody's chanting, "One more round."

Lex Fridman 1:06:47 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 1:06:48 Me and the Fertitta brothers get together and we talk, we're gonna give them both contracts. So we give them both contracts and the place erupts. It just...... it couldn't have been a more perfect fight at the most perfect time. And it just, it- it- it all came together. It's almost like this was meant to be. You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman 1:07:08 Yeah.

Dana White 1:07:08 So we had so many problems with Spike TV at the time, right, because halfway through the season, the president of the company got fired.

Lex Fridman 1:07:16 Hmm.

Dana White 1:07:18 All the things that we thought we were gonna get that year, you know, we- we- we had this runaway hit show. And normally at that time, when you would see runaway hit shows, there'd be commercials, it'd be on- be on billboards, it'd be on the side of buses, in- in LA and New York. Eh, we got none of that, right? We didn't even know if we were gonna get a- a, you know, a- a second season coming out of that, right? And when that fight was over, I swear to God, I was like, "I don't even give a fuck. We're gonna end up somewhere now after this fight." And we didn't even make it out of the building that night. The- the- the Spike guys did the contract with us in the alley on a fucking napkin after the fight, so...

Lex Fridman 1:08:00 So you saw the, you already saw the magic of the fight itself. The- the- the- it Once that happened... Yeah.

Dana White 1:08:05 ... and all the shit... And at that time I didn't know what the ratings... It's not like we were streaming.

Lex Fridman 1:08:10 Yeah.

Dana White 1:08:10 And we could see what we were... We had no idea, but I knew.

Lex Fridman 1:08:12 You just knew this was special.

Dana White 1:08:13 I knew. This-

Lex Fridman 1:08:14 What- what is there? It's like just two people being willing to s- stand toe-to-toe and just go to war.

Dana White 1:08:21 Well, and- and- and when you think about what was at stake, the- there was a car. Remember the Kia?

Lex Fridman 1:08:25 Yeah.

Dana White 1:08:25 The- the winner got a Kia.

Lex Fridman 1:08:27 (laughs)

Dana White 1:08:28 Right?

Lex Fridman 1:08:28 I don't even remember that.

Dana White 1:08:28 That's- that's what was the fucking... Right?

Lex Fridman 1:08:31 (laughs)

Dana White 1:08:31 And Stephan and Forrest.

Lex Fridman 1:08:34 Yeah.

Dana White 1:08:34 The will to win. They both wanted to win that fight so bad.

Lex Fridman 1:08:38 It was bigger than the Kia probably. (laughs)

Dana White 1:08:40 Well, you- you know Forrest drove that Kia to like 200,000 miles.

Lex Fridman 1:08:44 Yeah.

Dana White 1:08:44 The biggest mistake Kia ever made was not doing a fucking commercial with Forrest Griffin about that car. Forrest Griffin loved that car so much he drove it. I think he still has it. And it's got like 200,000 miles on it...

Lex Fridman 1:08:56 (laughs) Yeah.

Dana White 1:08:57 ... that car. I mean, you couldn't have a better fucking commercial than that. They- they... And we reached out to them too. I said, "Kia should know about this."

Lex Fridman 1:09:02 Yeah.

Dana White 1:09:03 They fucking blew it. You got a bunch of... You- you know how those guys-

Lex Fridman 1:09:05 Yeah, yeah.

Dana White 1:09:06 ... are in the- the- the business world.

Lex Fridman 1:09:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dana White 1:09:07 They don't fucking get anything.

Lex Fridman 1:09:09 Maybe it was about the Kia then. (laughs)

Dana White 1:09:11 It was about winning. They- they both...

Lex Fridman 1:09:12 Yeah.

Dana White 1:09:12 ... wanted to win The Ultimate Fighter so bad.

Lex Fridman 1:09:15 Yeah.

Dana White 1:09:15 It's the Kia, it's- it's the win, it's the tr- it's the, um, the- the contract you get, the whole thing.

Lex Fridman 1:09:22 But I think at that point, you even forget all of that. When you're in there, you're probably just... There's a primal thing where like, "I'm not backing down."

Dana White 1:09:30 A- listen, yeah, they're both bad dudes. They were both real fighters at the end of the day. That's why the fight was so great.

Lex Fridman 1:09:36 Yeah.

Dana White 1:09:36 You know what I mean?

Lex Fridman 1:09:37 And just throw it all, all the caution to the wind and just fight.

Dana White 1:09:41 Yep.

Lex Fridman 1:09:41 Those are some of the greatest moments in the FC too when-

Dana White 1:09:44 No doubt.

Lex Fridman 1:09:44 ... the technique is not, kind of falls apart. And you're just like, "Fuck it."

Dana White 1:09:49 Well, it's because you're in those deep rounds. You've ha- you've been through a war. Now it's all about heart and dog. Who- who can dig deeper and who's got it and who wants it? Who wants it? I mean, we all know when that- when that moment happens in a fight when you see that both of these guys are fucking exhausted. And for people that are watching this, people that don't know a lot ab- everybody thinks they know a lot about fighting. 99.9% of the people out there don't know fucking jack shit about fighting or what it takes to do what these people do. But when you get into those later rounds and fatigue sets in, and- and then fatigue makes you start to fucking doubt yourself and- and- and then you start to wonder, "C- can I even make it through the rest of this round?" And then you start to think, "Am I gonna fucking die right now?"

Lex Fridman 1:10:33 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 1:10:33 And these kids dig fucking deep and they just d- like you said, all the other shit flies out the window, and now they're just on fucking autopilot to fight and win. Those are definitely the best fights you'll ever see in any combat sport.

Lex Fridman 1:10:47 I mean, that saying is true, like the exhaustion makes cowards of us all. I mean, there, uh, there's something about it, 'cause I- I've competed a lot in jujitsu, uh, so there's the violence of being hit too, but even just exhaustion.

Dana White 1:11:01 Yep.

Lex Fridman 1:11:01 It makes you question everything.

Dana White 1:11:03 So true.

Lex Fridman 1:11:04 It just takes you just this- some weird place where your brain starts to think you're going to die for sure. Your- your brain starts to think like, "Why am I doing this?" All these excuses, all this...

Dana White 1:11:16 I love that shit.

Lex Fridman 1:11:17 (laughs) And then-

Dana White 1:11:18 I love that shit.

Lex Fridman 1:11:19 ... the- the truly heroic action is to say, "Fuck it," in that moment.

Dana White 1:11:22 100%.

Lex Fridman 1:11:22 And just get in there.

Dana White 1:11:24 When you think about these fights that you see in the UFC every fucking Saturday, when these- these men and women get to this point where they're- they've been in a dog fight yet they keep fucking going and you keep trying to win, you can't imagine what's going on inside their heads, you know, uh, self-doubt and all these other things that come into play when exhaustion sets in and they fucking power through it.

Lex Fridman 1:11:49 Yeah, those moments, sometimes they're not, they don't have a glorious knockout at the end, but your decision in the third round or the fifth round to still keep pushing forward, not running, which is-

Dana White 1:12:02 100%.

Lex Fridman 1:12:03 That's a, that, doesn't matter what happened. That like, that is a person winning a battle over themselves.

Dana White 1:12:10 So true.

Lex Fridman 1:12:11 And-

Dana White 1:12:11 It's so true and it happens every fucking weekend. It's so impressive that, I- I say it all the time, the- the- the people that are involved in this sport are this much of the population. The people that make it to the top five are incredibly unique, special human beings, man. It's- it's fucking awesome.

Lex Fridman 1:12:31 You love gambling.

Dana White 1:12:32 I do.

Lex Fridman 1:12:34 (laughs) What's the biggest win of your gambling career? Maybe psychologically, if not financially?

Dana White 1:12:43 Well, two things. I- I- I won a million dollar hand, uh, one night, it's happened one time. A million dollar hand one night at, um, Mandalay Bay. And then, uh, one summer I beat, uh, I beat Caesars for 12 million.... uh, throughout the summer.

Lex Fridman 1:13:02 Throughout the summer?

Dana White 1:13:03 Yeah. And then, uh, I'm on a pretty good run right now too.

Lex Fridman 1:13:07 Uh, this is blackjack.

Dana White 1:13:08 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:13:09 What's the, uh, biggest loss?

Dana White 1:13:13 Biggest loss was, uh... I w- h- here, here is... I would call this the biggest loss for many different reasons. This, this is what, you know... You live and you learn in life and you, you know, you, you-

Lex Fridman 1:13:27 Yeah.

Dana White 1:13:27 ...figure things out as you go along.

Lex Fridman 1:13:29 Yeah, yeah.

Dana White 1:13:29 So one night I'm over at the, uh, at The Rio, right? And, uh, they got big suites over there, so I go over there with some buddies and w- we got one of the suites and we have some dinner and we start drinking, right? So we're having some drinks at dinner and blah, blah, blah. Starts to ramp up, I'm having a good time, and, um, I make my way down to the high-limit room. We start gambling, and I continue to drink. Having a blast. I end up leaving and going home that night, and I lost like 80 grand, right? So I wake up the next morning, I'm like, "Fuck, those motherfuckers got me for 80,000 last night," and da-da-da-da-da. So I'm at work the next day, and, uh, the host over there calls me and he says, "Hey, Dana, um, are you coming back? You, do you still need the room that you guys had where you ate and all the shit and you st-" And I said, "No, you... I don't need the room, but don't get, don't, don't get too comfortable with my fucking 80 grand. I'm coming back for it."

Lex Fridman 1:14:34 Uh-huh, yeah.

Dana White 1:14:35 Dead fucking silence on the other end of the phone. And he's like, "Dana, you lost $3 million last night."

Lex Fridman 1:14:43 (laughs)

Dana White 1:14:44 I said, "What the fuck are you talking about? I, I d- I, I, I, I only have a, uh, a million and a half dollar credit line."

Lex Fridman 1:14:50 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 1:14:51 He goes, "Yeah, you, uh, you made us call the GM of the hotel and you started calling him a fucking pussy and-

Lex Fridman 1:14:58 (laughs)

Dana White 1:14:58 ...and da-da-da-da-da." And I'm, and I went, "Yeah."

Lex Fridman 1:15:02 Oh, no.

Dana White 1:15:02 "No, that, that-"

Lex Fridman 1:15:04 Oh, no.

Dana White 1:15:04 "...that sounds like something I would do, yeah." And-

Lex Fridman 1:15:06 So that's the real number?

Dana White 1:15:08 That was the real number. And then-

Lex Fridman 1:15:10 (exhales) .

Dana White 1:15:10 And then, you know... There's been a lot of cases where people are in Vegas and they're like, um, "Oh," you know, "I lost all this money," you know, and, "They were giving me free drinks and I drank too much and I was taken advantage of."

Lex Fridman 1:15:24 Yeah.

Dana White 1:15:25 No, you... No, you stupid motherfucker. Man up.

Lex Fridman 1:15:28 (laughs)

Dana White 1:15:28 You got fucking drunk, right? They, they didn't... The, the... For alcohol is free.

Lex Fridman 1:15:34 Yeah.

Dana White 1:15:34 But you don't have to fucking drink it. You know what I mean? And, you know, th- this, this was a huge learning lesson for me. So I never drank again when I, when I was playing cards after that night.

Lex Fridman 1:15:46 (laughs) Oh, damn.

Dana White 1:15:48 But yeah, I mean, when you ask me-

Lex Fridman 1:15:49 Yeah.

Dana White 1:15:49 ...that's the one that stands out-

Lex Fridman 1:15:51 That one came back right now.

Dana White 1:15:51 ...in my, my head the most, as far as, uh, having a bad loss. And then, you know, of course I said, "Call the GM," and I started calling him a pussy at 3:00 in the morning. So...

Lex Fridman 1:16:00 Of course you did.

Dana White 1:16:00 That is something I would absolutely do.

Lex Fridman 1:16:03 How do you deal with those psychologically? Do you, uh, when you gamble, maybe this applies to fighting too. Do you love winning or hate losing more?

Dana White 1:16:13 Hm. They go hand-in-hand. So the way that I, that I play is... I live in Vegas, so 2024 is a war for me.

Lex Fridman 1:16:25 Hmm.

Dana White 1:16:25 I go to war in '24, okay? All these nights that I play are little battles inside the war-

Lex Fridman 1:16:31 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 1:16:31 ...that I will fight in '24. Now, at the end of the year, we will tall- uh, ta- you know-

Lex Fridman 1:16:38 (laughs)

Dana White 1:16:38 ...tally up all these little battles-

Lex Fridman 1:16:39 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 1:16:39 ...and see where I stand on win- wins and losses, and, um... You know, there's th- there's lots of talk about, out there about my gambling, you know, places that I've been, um, kicked out of and things like that. And I'd... I, I, I do pretty well. I do pretty well. But it's, it's, it's what I like to do, you know? I, I, I don't gamble in a way that I would ever hurt myself or, or hurt my family, or, uh, you know... I'm, I'm sure you've heard the Norm MacDonald stories. Norm MacDonald lo- lost like his entire personal wealth four times or something like that. Um, yeah, that's, that's not gonna happen to me.

Lex Fridman 1:17:20 So you, you, you manage it, but just psychologically you're able to c- be even keel?

Dana White 1:17:24 Yeah, yeah. So, so when I win, it's awesome.

Lex Fridman 1:17:27 Mm-hmm.

Dana White 1:17:28 It's always great to win. Winning is, is, is a great feeling in business, in sports, in life and definitely in gambling. Um, losing is, is, is never fun but it's part of the game. You know what I mean? If, if you wanna be in the game, and it's sports, it's business or whatever, there's gonna be wins and there's gonna be losses. And you have to take them both in stride and you have to be able to... You know, um, there's a lot of people... W- when you gamble, right, and you lose, and you go into a deep, dark depression, I've seen this-

Lex Fridman 1:18:03 Yeah.

Dana White 1:18:03 ...with guys that