Jack Dorsey: Square, Cryptocurrency, and Artificial Intelligence | Lex Fridman Podcast #91

1. 0:00 – 2:48

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Jack Dorsey, co-founder and CEO of Twitter, and founder and CEO of Square. Given the happenings at the time related to Twitter leadership and the very limited time we had, we decided to focus this conversation on Square and some broader philosophical topics, and to save an in-depth conversation on engineering and AI at Twitter for a second appearance in this podcast. This conversation was recorded before the outbreak of the pandemic. For everyone feeling the medical, psychological, and financial burden of this crisis, I'm sending love your way. Stay strong. We're in this together. We'll beat this thing. As an aside, let me mention that Jack moved one billion dollars of Square equity, which is 28% of his wealth, to form an organization that funds COVID-19 relief. First, as Andrew Yang tweeted, this is a spectacular commitment, and second, it is amazing that it operates transparently by posting all its donations to a single Google Doc. To me, true transparency is simple, and this is as simple as it gets. This is the Artificial Intelligence Podcast. If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube, review it with five stars on Apple Podcast, support it on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter @lexfridman, spelled F-R-I-D-M-A-N. As usual, I'll do a few minutes of ads now and never any ads in the middle that can break the flow of the conversation. I hope that works for you and doesn't hurt the listening experience. This show is presented by Masterclass. Sign up on masterclass.com/lex to get a discount and to support this podcast. When I first heard about Masterclass, I thought it was too good to be true. For $180 a year, you get an all-access pass to watch courses from, to list some of my favorites, Chris Hadfield on space exploration, Neil deGrasse Tyson on scientific thinking and communication, Will Wright, creator of SimCity and Sims, both one of my favorite games, on game design, Jane Goodall on conservation, Carlos Santana on guitar, one of my favorite guitar players, Garry Kasparov on chess, Daniel Negreanu on poker, and many, many more. Chris Hadfield explaining how rockets work and the experience of being launched into space alone is worth the money. For me, the key is to not be overwhelmed by the abundance of choice. Pick three courses you want to complete, watch each all the way through. It's not that long, but it's an experience that will stick with you for a long time. It's easily worth the money. You can watch it on basically any device. Once again, sign up on masterclass.com/lex to get a discount and to support this podcast. And now, here's my conversation with Jack Dorsey.

2. 2:48 – 8:36

   Engineering at scale

   1. LFLex Fridman2:48

      You've been on several podcasts, Joe Rogan, Sam Harris, Rich Roll, others, excellent conversations. But I think there's several topics that you didn't talk about that I think are fascinating that I'd love to talk to you about. Sort of machine learning, artificial intelligence, both the- the narrow kind and the general kind, and engineering at scale. So there's a lot of incredible engineering going on that you're a part of. Crypto, cryptocurrency, uh, blockchain, UBI, all kinds of philosophical questions maybe we'll get to-

   2. JDJack Dorsey3:18

      Yeah.

   3. LFLex Fridman3:18

      ... about life and death and meaning and beauty. So, you're involved in building some of, uh, the biggest network systems in the world, sort of trillions of interactions a day. The cool thing about that is the infrastructure, the engineering at scale. You started as a programmer with C-

   4. JDJack Dorsey3:37

      A hacker.

   5. LFLex Fridman3:38

      ... uh, building. Yeah, so-

   6. JDJack Dorsey3:39

      I'm a hacker. I'm not really an engineer.

   7. LFLex Fridman3:41

      Not- not a legit software engineer. You're-

   8. JDJack Dorsey3:43

      Not a legit-

   9. LFLex Fridman3:43

      ... a hacker at heart.

   10. JDJack Dorsey3:44

       Yeah.

   11. LFLex Fridman3:44

       But to achieve scale, you have to do some, unfortunately, legit large-scale engineering.

   12. JDJack Dorsey3:49

       Mm-hmm.

   13. LFLex Fridman3:50

       So, how do you make that magic happen?

   14. JDJack Dorsey3:53

       Hire people that, um, I can learn from, number one. I mean I'm a hacker in the sense that I... You know, my approach has always been do whatever it takes to make it work, uh, so that I can see and feel the thing and then learn what needs to come next. And oftentimes, what needs to come next is a matter of being able to bring it to more people, which is scale and, um... There's a lot of great people out there that either have experience or are extremely fast learners that we've been lucky enough to- to find and work with for- for years. But I think a lot of it, we benefit a ton from the open source community and just all the learnings there that are laid bare in the open. All the mistakes, all the success, all the problems. It's a very slow-moving process usually, open source, but it's very deliberate. And you get to see... Because of the- the pace, you get to see what it takes to really build something meaningful. So I learned... Most- most of everything I learned about hacking and programming and engineering has been due to open source and- and the, um, the generosity that people have given, um, to give up their time, sacrifice their time without any expectation in return other than being a part of something much larger than themselves, which I think is great.

   15. LFLex Fridman5:29

       Yeah. The open source movement is amazing. But, uh, if you just look at the scale, like, Square has to take care of, is this, uh, fundamentally a software problem or hardware problem? You mentioned hiring a bunch of people, but... So it's not, maybe from my perspective, not often talked about how incredible that is to sort of have a system that doesn't go down often, that, uh, secure, is able to take care of all these transactions. Like, maybe I'm- I'm also a hacker at heart, and it's incredible to me that that kind of scale could be achieved. Is there some-... insight, some lessons, some interesting tidbits that you can say ab- uh, how to make that scale happen? Is it the hardware fundamentally challenge? Is it a software challenge? Is it, um, like, i- is it a s- social challenge of, of building large teams of engineers that work together, that kind of thing? Like, what's, is there, what's the interesting challenges there?

   16. JDJack Dorsey6:28

       By the way, you're the best-dressed hacker I've, I've met. (laughs) I think the-

   17. LFLex Fridman6:31

       Thank you, by the way. (laughs)

   18. JDJack Dorsey6:33

       (laughs) Of the enumeration you just went through, I don't think there's one. You have to kind of focus on all, and the ability to focus on all that, um, really comes down to how you face problems and whether you can break them down into parts that, um, you can focus on. Because I, I think the biggest mistake is, is trying to solve or address too many at once, um, or not going deep enough with the questions, or, uh, not being critical of the answers you find, or not form... not taking the time to form, um, credible hypotheses that you can actually test and you can see the results of. So, all of those fall in the face of ultimately critical thinking skills, problem-solving skills, and if there's one skill I wanna improve every day, it's that. That's, that's what contributes to, um, learning and, um, the only way we can evolve any of these things is, is learning what it's currently doing and, and how to take it to the next, the next step.

   19. LFLex Fridman7:44

       And questioning assumptions, the first principles kind of thinking-

   20. JDJack Dorsey7:47

       Yeah.

   21. LFLex Fridman7:47

       ... seems like, uh-

   22. JDJack Dorsey7:48

       Yeah.

   23. LFLex Fridman7:49

       ... f- fundamental to this whole process.

   24. JDJack Dorsey7:50

       Yeah, but if you get too overextended into, "Well, this is a hardware issue," you miss all the software solutions. And, uh, you know, vice versa, if you focus too much on the software, there, there are hardware solutions that can 10X a thing. Um, so I, um, I try to resist the, the categories of, of thinking and look for the underlying systems that make all these things work. But those only emerge when you have, uh, a skill around creative, creative, uh, thinking, problem-solving, and, um, uh, um, a- being able to ask critical questions and having the patience to, like, go deep.

3. 8:36 – 13:09

   Increasing access to the economy

   1. JDJack Dorsey8:36

   2. LFLex Fridman8:36

      So, one, one of the amazing things-

   3. JDJack Dorsey8:38

      (clears throat)

   4. LFLex Fridman8:38

      ... if we look at the mission of Square, is to increase people's access to the economy. Maybe, maybe, you can correct me if I'm wrong, that's from my perspective, so from the perspective of merchants, peer-to-peer payments, uh, even crypto, cryptocurrency, digital cryptocurrency, what do you see as the major ways our society can increase participation in the economy? So, if we look at today and the next 10 years, next 20 years, you go into Africa, maybe in Africa and all kinds of other places outside of n- North America.

   5. JDJack Dorsey9:09

      If, if there was one word that, um, I think represents what we're trying to do at Square, it's, it is that word access. Um, one of the things we found is that... We, we weren't expecting this at all. When we started, we thought we were just building a, a piece of hardware to enable people to plug it into their phone and swipe a credit card. And then as we talked with people who actually tried to accept credit cards in the past, we found a consistent theme, which many of them weren't even enabled... ma- not enabled, but allowed to process credit cards. And we dug a little bit deeper, again, asking that question, and we found that, um, a lot of them would go to banks or these merchant acquirers, and waiting for them was a credit check and looking at a FICO score. And many of the businesses that we talked to and many small businesses, they don't have good credit or a credit history. Um, they're entrepreneurs who are just getting started, taking a lot of personal risk, financial risk, uh, and it just felt ridiculous to us that for, for, for the, for the job of being able to accept money from people, you had to get your credit checked. And as we dug deeper, we realized that that wasn't the intention of the financial industry, but it's the only tool they had available to them to understand authenticity, intent, predictor of future behavior. So, that's the first thing we actually looked at, and that's where the, you know, we built the hardware but the software really came in terms of, uh, risk modeling. Um, and that's when we started down the path that eventually leads to AI. We started with a very strong, um, data science discipline, um, because we knew that our business was not necessarily about making hardware, it was more about, um, enabling more people to come into the system.

   6. LFLex Fridman11:18

      So, the fundamental challenge there is, so to enable more people to come into the system, you have to lower the barrier of checking that that person will be, um, a legitimate vendor. Is that the fundamental problem here?

   7. JDJack Dorsey11:31

      Yeah, and a different mindset. I think a lot of the financial industry had a mindset of, um, kind of, uh, distrust and, um, just constantly looking for opportunities to, uh, prove why people shouldn't get into the system. Whereas we took on a mindset of trust and then verify, verify, verify, verify, verify.

   8. LFLex Fridman11:57

      (laughs) Yes.

   9. JDJack Dorsey11:58

      Um, so we moved... You know, when we f- when we entered, um, the space-... only about 30 to 40% of the people who applied to accept credit cards would actually get through the system. We took that number to 99%. Um, and that's because we reframed the problem. Uh, we built credible models, um, and we had this mindset of, "We're going to watch not at the merchant level, but we're gonna watch at the transaction level. So come in, perform some transactions, uh, and as long as you're doing things that feel high integrity, credible, and don't look suspicious, we'll continue to, um, to serve you. If we see any interestingness in how you use our system, that will be bubbled up to people to review, to figure out if there's something nefarious going on, and that's when we might ask you to leave." So the- the change in the mindset led to the technology that we needed, um, to enable more people to get through and to enable more people to access the system.

4. 13:09 – 15:18

   Machine learning at Square

   1. JDJack Dorsey13:09

   2. LFLex Fridman13:09

      What, uh, what role does machine learning play into that, in- in- in that context of, uh, you said, first of all, there's a beautiful shift. Anytime you shift your viewpoint into seeing that people are fundamentally good (laughs) and then you just have to verify and catch the ones who are not, as opposed to assuming everybody's bad. Uh, this is a beautiful thing. So what role does the, to you, throughout the history of the company, has machine learning played in doing that verification?

   3. JDJack Dorsey13:40

      It was, it was immediate. I mean, we weren't calling it machine learning, but it- it was data science. Um, and then as the industry evolved, machine learning became more of the nomenclature and- and as that evolved, it became more sophisticated with deep learning and, uh, as that continues- continues to evolve, it'll be, it'll be another thing. But they're all in the same vein. Um, but we built that discipline up within the first year of the company, um, because we also had, you know, we have to, we had to partner with a bank. We had to partner with Visa and MasterCard, and we had to show that by bringing more people into the system, that we could do so in a responsible way that would not compromise their systems and that they would trust us.

   4. LFLex Fridman14:25

      How do you convince th- this upstart company with some cool machine learning tricks is able to, uh, deliver on this from a trustworthy set of merchants?

   5. JDJack Dorsey14:35

      We- we staged it out in tiers. We had a- a bucket of, you know, 500 people using it and then-

   6. LFLex Fridman14:42

      Ah.

   7. JDJack Dorsey14:42

      ... we showed results and then 1,000 and then 10,000, then 50,000 and then the constraint was left, uh, was lifted. So again, it's- it's kind of, you know, getting something tangible out there. I wanna show what we can do rather than talk about it, um, and that put a lot of pressure on us to do the right things. Um, and it also created a culture of accountability, of a little bit more transparency, um, and, uh, I think incentivized all of our early folks in- in the company in the right way.

5. 15:18 – 17:17

   Future of the digital economy

   1. JDJack Dorsey15:18

   2. LFLex Fridman15:18

      So wha- what does the future look like in terms of increasing people's access? Or if you look at IOT, Internet of Things, there's more and more intelligent devices. You can see there's some people even talking about our personal data as a thing that we could monetize more explicitly versus implicitly, sort of everything can become part of the economy. Do you see... so what- what does the future of Square look like in sort of giving people access in all kinds of ways to being part of the economy as merchants and as consumers?

   3. JDJack Dorsey15:49

      I- I believe that the currency we use is- is a huge, um, part of the answer, and I believe that the internet deserves and requires a- a native currency. And- and that's why I'm- I'm such a huge believer in- in Bitcoin, uh, because it- it just... our- our biggest problem as a company right now is we cannot act like an internet company, open a new market. We have to have a partnership with a local bank. We have to pay attention to different regulatory onboarding environments. Um, and a digital currency like Bitcoin takes an, a bunch of that away where we can potentially, uh, launch a product in every single market around the world, um, because they're all using the same currency and we- we have consistent, uh, understanding of regulation and onboarding and- and- and what that means. So I think, um, you know, the- the internet continuing to be accessible to people is number one. And then I think currency is- is number two. Um, and it- it will just allow for a lot more innovation, a lot more speed, uh, in terms of what we can build and others can build and, uh, it's just, it's just really exciting. So I mean, I- I want to be able to see that and feel that in my lifetime.

   4. LFLex Fridman17:16

      So

6. 17:17 – 25:31

   Cryptocurrency

   1. LFLex Fridman17:17

      in this aspect and in other aspects, you have a deep interest in cryptocurrency and distributed ledger tech in general. I talked to, um, Vitalik Buterin yesterday on this podcast. He says hi, by the way.

   2. JDJack Dorsey17:29

      Hey.

   3. LFLex Fridman17:31

      (laughs)

   4. JDJack Dorsey17:31

      (laughs)

   5. LFLex Fridman17:31

      Uh, he's a f- a brilliant, brilliant person.

   6. JDJack Dorsey17:34

      (clears throat) Yes.

   7. LFLex Fridman17:34

      Talked a lot about Bitcoin and Ethereum of course. So can you maybe linger on this point? What- what do you find appealing about Bitcoin, about digital currency? Where do you see it going in the next 10, 20 years, and, uh, what are some of the challenges with respect to Square but also just bigger for our, for our globally, for our world, for the way we, um, we think about money?

   8. JDJack Dorsey17:59

      I- I think the most beautiful thing about it is there's no one person setting the direction, um, and there's no one person on the other side that can stop it.So, we have something that is, um, pretty organic in nature and very principled in its original design. Um, and, uh, I, you know, I think the Bitcoin white paper is one of the most seminal works of computer science in the last 20, 30 years. Um, it's- it's poetry. I mean, it really is.

   9. LFLex Fridman18:30

      Yeah, it's pretty cool technology. I mean, that's not often talked about, sort of, uh, there's so much sort of hype around digital currency, about the financial impacts of it, but the actual technology is quite beautiful from a computer science perspective.

   10. JDJack Dorsey18:42

       Yeah. And the- and the underlying principles behind it that went into it, even to the point of releasing it under a pseudonym. I- I think that's a- a very, very powerful statement. The timing of when it was released is powerful. It- it was- it was a total activist move. I mean, it- it's- it's moving the world forward in- in a way that, um, I think is extremely noble and honorable and enables everyone to be part of the story, um, which is also really cool. So, you- y- you asked the question around 10 years and 20 years. I mean, I think the- the amazing thing is no one knows.

   11. LFLex Fridman19:18

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JDJack Dorsey19:19

       Uh, and it- it can emerge and every person that comes into the ecosystem, whether they be a- a developer or someone who uses it, can change its direction in small and large ways. Um, and that's what I think it should be 'cause that's what the- the internet has shown is possible. Now, there's complications with that, of course, and, um, there's, you know, certainly companies that own large parts of the internet and can direct it more than others and, uh, there's not equal access to every single person in the world just yet. But all those problems are visible enough to speak about them, and to me, that gives confidence that they're- they're solvable in a relatively short timeframe. I think the world changes a lot, uh, as we get these satellites, um, uh, projecting the internet down- down to earth, um, because it just removes a bunch of the former constraints, um, and, uh, and really levels the- the playing field. But a global currency, which a native currency for the internet is a proxy for, is a very powerful concept, uh, and I don't think any one person on this planet truly understands the ramifications of that. I think there's a lot of positives to it. There's some negatives as well. But-

   13. LFLex Fridman20:35

       Do you think it's possible... Sorry to interrupt. Do you think it's possible that this kind of digital currency would redefine the nature of money to become the main currency of the world, as opposed to being tied to fiat currency of different nations and sort of really push the decentralization of control of money?

   14. JDJack Dorsey20:54

       Definitely, but I- I think the- the bigger ramification is how it affects how society works, and I think there will- there will- there are many positive ramifications around that.

   15. LFLex Fridman21:06

       Outside of just money, just money.

   16. JDJack Dorsey21:07

       Outside of just money. Money- money is a foundational layer that enables so much more. I- I was meeting with an entrepreneur in Ethiopia and, um, payments is probably the number one problem to solve across the continent, um, both in terms of moving money across borders, um, between nations on a continent or, um, the amount of corruption, uh, within the- the current system. Um, but the lack of easy ways to pay people makes starting anything really difficult. I met an entrepreneur who, um, started the- the Lyft/Uber of Ethiopia, and one of the biggest problems she has is that it's not easy for her riders to pay the company and it's not easy for her to pay the drivers. Um, and that definitely has stunted her growth and made everything more challenging. So, the fact that she's- she even has to think about payments, uh, instead of thinking about the best rider experience and the best driver experience, uh, is- is pretty telling. Um, so I think as we get a more durable, resilient and, uh, global standard, um, we see a lot more innovation everywhere, and I- I think there's no better case study for this than the various countries within- within Africa and- and their entrepreneurs who are trying to start things within health or sustainability or transportation or a lot of the companies that we've seen- that we've seen here. So, um, the majority of companies I met, uh, in November when I spent a month on the continent were payments-oriented.

   17. LFLex Fridman22:52

       You mentioned... And this is a small tangent. You mentioned the anonymous launch of Bitcoin is a sort of profound philosophical statement.

   18. JDJack Dorsey23:00

       Pseudonymous.

   19. LFLex Fridman23:02

       What's that even mean? Pseu- Like, there's a pseudonym. First of all, let me ask-

   20. JDJack Dorsey23:05

       Well, there's an ide- there's an identity tied to it. It's not just anonymous.

   21. LFLex Fridman23:08

       I see.

   22. JDJack Dorsey23:08

       It's Nakamoto. Um, so a Nakamoto might represent one person or multiple people. But there were-

   23. LFLex Fridman23:14

       All right, let me ask, are you Satoshi Nakamoto? Just- just checking.

   24. JDJack Dorsey23:17

       No. (laughs)

   25. LFLex Fridman23:17

       Catch you off guard.

   26. JDJack Dorsey23:17

       And if I were, would I tell you?

   27. LFLex Fridman23:18

       Yeah, that's true.

   28. JDJack Dorsey23:19

       Um, but I- a pseu-

   29. LFLex Fridman23:20

       Maybe you slip.

   30. JDJack Dorsey23:21

       A pseudonym is a- is- is- is constructed identity. Anonymity is just kind of this, you know, ran- random, like, drop something off and leave. Um, there's no intention to build an identity around it, and while the identity being built was, um, a short time window, it was meant to stick around, I think, and to be known, and it's being honored in, um, you know, how the community thinks about building it. Like, the concept of Satosh- Satoshis, for instance, um, is- is one such example. But I- I think it was smart not to do it anonymous, not to do it as a real identity, but to do it as a pseudonym b- because I think it builds tangibility and a little bit of empathy that this was a human or set of humans behind it and there's- there's this natural identity that I can imagine.
7. 25:31 – 27:49

   Artificial intelligence

   1. LFLex Fridman25:31

      Let's talk about artificial intelligence a little bit if we could. S- 70 years ago, Alan Turing formulated the Turing test. To me, natural language is one of the most interesting spaces of, um, problems that are tackled by artificial intelligence. It's the canonical problem of what it means to be intelligent. He formulated the Turing test. Let me ask sort of the broad question, d- how hard do you think is it to pass the Turing test in the space of language?

   2. JDJack Dorsey25:58

      Just from a very practical standpoint, I think where we are now and, and for at least years out, um, is one where the artificial intelligence, machine learning, the deep learning models, can bubble up interestingness very, very quickly. And pair that with, um, human discretion around severity, around, uh, depth, around nuance and, and meaning. I think for me, um, the chasm to cross for general intelligence is to be able to explain why and the meaning behind something.

   3. LFLex Fridman26:43

      Behind a decision?

   4. JDJack Dorsey26:44

      Mm-hmm.

   5. LFLex Fridman26:44

      So being able to-

   6. JDJack Dorsey26:45

      Behind a decision or a set of data.

   7. LFLex Fridman26:46

      ... tell a story?

   8. JDJack Dorsey26:47

      Um, set- sets of data.

   9. LFLex Fridman26:49

      So the explainability part is kind of essential to be able to explain using natural language why the decisions were made, that kind of thing?

   10. JDJack Dorsey26:56

       Yeah, I mean, I th- I think that's one of our biggest risks in artificial intelligence going forward, is we are building a lot of black boxes that n- can't necessarily explain why they made a decision or what criteria they used to make the decision. Um, and we're trusting them more and more, from lending decisions to content recommendation, to driving, to health. Um, like, you know, a lot of us have watches that tell us when to stand. How is it deciding that? I mean, th- that one's pretty, pretty simple. But, um, you can imagine how complex they get. And ...

   11. LFLex Fridman27:29

       Being able to explain the reasoning behind some of those recommendations seems to be an essential part. Although it's har-

   12. JDJack Dorsey27:35

       Which is a very hard problem, because sometimes even we can't explain why we make decisions, so ... (laughs)

   13. LFLex Fridman27:40

       S- that's, that's what I was ... I think we're being a sometimes a little bit unfair for, to artificial intelligence systems, 'cause we're not-

   14. JDJack Dorsey27:46

       Yep.

   15. LFLex Fridman27:46

       ... very good at these, some of these things.

   16. JDJack Dorsey27:48

       Yep.

8. 27:49 – 29:12

   Her

   1. JDJack Dorsey27:49

   2. LFLex Fridman27:49

      Do you think ... Apologize for the ridiculous, romanticized question, but on that line of thought, do you think we'll ever be able to build a system like in the movie Her that you could fall in love with?

   3. JDJack Dorsey28:03

      (laughs)

   4. LFLex Fridman28:03

      So have that kind of deep connection with. S-

   5. JDJack Dorsey28:06

      Hasn't that already happened? Hasn't someone in Japan fallen in love with th- his AI?

   6. LFLex Fridman28:13

      There's always going to be somebody-

   7. JDJack Dorsey28:14

      (laughs)

   8. LFLex Fridman28:15

      ... that does that kind of thing. I mean, at, at a much larger scale of actually building relationships, of being deeper connections. It doesn't have to be love, but it just, deeper connections with artificial intelligence systems. So you mentioned explainability.

   9. JDJack Dorsey28:27

      That's less a function of the artificial intelligence and more a function of the individual and, and how they find meaning and where they find meaning.

   10. LFLex Fridman28:34

       Do you think we humans can find meaning in technology-

   11. JDJack Dorsey28:37

       Yeah.

   12. LFLex Fridman28:37

       ... in this kind of way?

   13. JDJack Dorsey28:38

       Yeah, yeah, 100%. 100%. And I don't necessarily think it's a, a negative. Um, but I, you know ... It, it's, it's constantly going to evolve, so, uh, I don't know. But I, I ... Meaning is, is something that's entirely subjective, and I, I, I don't think it's going to be a function of finding the magic algorithm that enables everyone to love (laughs) it. Um, but maybe. I don't know.

   14. LFLex Fridman29:08

       But that question really gets at the difference between human and machine,

9. 29:12 – 32:05

   Exchange with Elon Musk about bots

   1. LFLex Fridman29:12

      that you, you had a little bit of an exchange with Elon Musk, uh, basically ... I mean, it's a trivial version of that, but I think there's a f- more fundamental question of is it possible to tell the difference between a bot and a human? And do you think it's ... If we look into the future, 10, 20 years out, do you think it will be possible or is it even necessary to tell the difference in the digital space between a human and a robot? Can we have fulfilling relationships with each or do we need to tell the difference between them?

   2. JDJack Dorsey29:46

      I think it's certainly useful in certain problem domains to be able to tell the difference. Um, I think in others, it might not be as useful. I think it's-

   3. LFLex Fridman29:56

      And you think it's possible for us today to tell the difference?

   4. JDJack Dorsey29:59

      Uh ...

   5. LFLex Fridman29:59

      It's the reverse, the meta of the Turing test.

   6. JDJack Dorsey30:02

      Well, what's interesting is, um, I think the technology to create is moving much faster than the technology to detect, generally.

   7. LFLex Fridman30:13

      You think so?

   8. JDJack Dorsey30:14

      Yeah.

   9. LFLex Fridman30:14

      So if you look at, like, adversarial machine learning, there is a lot of systems that try to fool machine learning systems. And at least for me, the hope is that the technology to defend will always be ...... right there, at least. Your sense is that, um-

   10. JDJack Dorsey30:30

       I don't know if they'll be right there. I mean, it- it's- it's a race, right? So, the detection technologies have to be two or ten steps ahead of, uh, the creation technologies and this is a problem that I think the financial industry will face more and more because a lot of our, um, risk models, for instance, are built around identity. Payments ultimately comes down to identity. And you can imagine a world where, um, all this conversation around, uh, deepfakes goes towards a direction of, uh, driver's license or passports or state identities, and people construct identities in order to get through a system such as ours to start accepting credit cards or into the Cash App. Um, and those technologies seem to be moving very, very quickly. Our ability to detect them, uh, I think is probably lagging at this point. But, um, certainly with more focus, uh, we can get ahead of it. Um, but this is gonna touch everything. So, um, I- I think it's- it's- it's like security in that we're never going to be able to build a perfect detection system. We're- we're only going to be able to... You know, what we should be focused on is, uh, is the speed of evolving it and being able to take signals that show correctness or errors as quickly as possible and- and move, um, and to be able to- to build that into our- our newer models or the- or the self-learning models.

10. 32:05 – 35:40

    Concerns about artificial intelligence

    1. JDJack Dorsey32:05

    2. LFLex Fridman32:05

       Do you have other worries, like some people, like Elon and others, have worries of the existential threats of artificial intelligence, of artificial general intelligence? Or if you think more narrowly about threats and concerns about more narrow artificial intelligence, like, what are your thoughts in this domain? Do you have concerns or are you more optimistic?

    3. JDJack Dorsey32:27

       I think you've all in his- in his book 21, 21 Lessons for the 21st Century, you know, his last chapter is around meditation. And, uh, you look at the title of the chapter and you're like, "Oh, it's kind of, you know, it's all meditation."

    4. LFLex Fridman32:40

       (laughs)

    5. JDJack Dorsey32:40

       But the- what was interesting about that chapter is he believes that, um, you know, kids being born today, growing up today, um, Google has a stronger sense of their preferences than they do, which you can easily imagine. I can easily imagine today that Google probably knows my preferences more than my mother does. Um, maybe not me per se, but for someone growing up only knowing the internet, only knowing what Google is capable of, or Facebook or Twitter or Square, or any of these things, um, the self-awareness is being offloaded to other systems and particularly these- these algorithms. And his concern is that we lose that self-awareness because the self-awareness is now outside of us and it's doing such a better job at helping us direct our decisions around, "Should I stand? Should I walk today? Um, what doctor should I choose? Who should I date?" All these things we're now seeing play out very quickly. So, he sees meditation as a tool to build that self-awareness and to bring the focus back on, "Why do I make these decisions? Why do I react in this way? Why did I have this thought? Where did that come from?"

    6. LFLex Fridman34:07

       That's a way to regain control.

    7. JDJack Dorsey34:09

       Mm-hmm.

    8. LFLex Fridman34:09

       As- it's interesting-

    9. JDJack Dorsey34:11

       Or awareness, maybe not control but- but awareness, so that you can be aware that, yes, I am offloading this decision to this-

    10. LFLex Fridman34:18

        Right.

    11. JDJack Dorsey34:19

        ... algorithm that I don't fully understand and can't tell me why it's doing the things it's doing because it's so complex.

    12. LFLex Fridman34:26

        That's not to say that the algorithm can't be a good thing, and to me, recommender systems, the best of what they can do is to help guide you on a journey of learning new ideas of- of learning, period.

    13. JDJack Dorsey34:39

        It can be a great thing, but do you know you're doing that? Are you aware that you're inviting it to do that to you?

    14. LFLex Fridman34:45

        Right. Aware.

    15. JDJack Dorsey34:45

        I think that's- that's the risk he identifies, right? Um, is, uh, that's perfectly okay but are you aware that you have that invitation and it's- it's being acted upon?

    16. LFLex Fridman34:58

        And so that- that's your- that's a concern you're kind of highlighting, that without a lack of awareness you can just be like floating at sea, so awareness is key in- in these-

    17. JDJack Dorsey35:08

        Yeah.

    18. LFLex Fridman35:08

        ... the future of these artificial intelligence systems?

    19. JDJack Dorsey35:10

        Yeah, the movie WALL-E.

    20. LFLex Fridman35:12

        WALL-E?

    21. JDJack Dorsey35:12

        Which I think is one of Pixar's best movies besides Ratatouille.

    22. LFLex Fridman35:18

        (laughs)

    23. JDJack Dorsey35:19

        I think Ratatouille was incredible.

    24. LFLex Fridman35:20

        (laughs) What? You had me until Ratatouille. Okay.

    25. JDJack Dorsey35:22

        Ratatouille was incredible.

    26. LFLex Fridman35:24

        (laughs) All right, we've come to the f- the first point where we disagree. Okay.

    27. JDJack Dorsey35:29

        It's the entrepreneurial story in the form of a rat.

    28. LFLex Fridman35:33

        Hmm. (laughs)

    29. JDJack Dorsey35:34

        (laughs)

    30. LFLex Fridman35:35

        I just remember just the soundtrack was really good. So...
11. 35:40 – 40:57

    Andrew Yang

    1. JDJack Dorsey35:40

    2. LFLex Fridman35:41

       What are your thoughts, sticking on artificial intelligence a little bit, about the displacement of jobs? That's another perspective that candidates like Andrew Yang talk about, uh-

    3. JDJack Dorsey35:50

       Yang Gang forever.

    4. LFLex Fridman35:51

       (laughs) Yang Gang. Uh, so he unfortunately, speaking of Yang Gang, has recently dropped out.

    5. JDJack Dorsey35:57

       I know, it was very disappointing and depressing.

    6. LFLex Fridman36:00

       Yeah, but the- on the positive side, he's, I think, launching a podcast. So, uh-

    7. JDJack Dorsey36:05

       Really? Cool.

    8. LFLex Fridman36:06

       Yeah, that's- he just announced that. I'm sure he'll try to talk you into trying to come onto the podcast.

    9. JDJack Dorsey36:12

       I would love to.

    10. LFLex Fridman36:12

        So-

    11. JDJack Dorsey36:12

        Talk about Ratatouille?

    12. LFLex Fridman36:13

        (laughs) Yeah, maybe he'll be more welcoming of the Ratatouille argument. What are your thoughts on his concerns of the displacement of jobs, of automations, of the... Of course there's positive impacts that could come from automation and AI, but there could also be negative impacts. And within that framework, what are your thoughts about universal basic income? Uh, so these interesting new ideas of how we can empower people in the economy.

    13. JDJack Dorsey36:40

        I, I think he was a 100% right on almost every dimension. Um, we see this in, in Square's business. I mean, he identified, um, truck drivers, some from Missouri, um, and he certainly pointed to the concern and the issue that people from where I'm from feel every single day, that is often invisible and not talked about enough. You know, the next big one is cashiers. This is where it pertains to Square's business. Um, we are seeing more and more of the, the point of sale move to the individual customer's hand in the form of their phone and apps and pre-order and order ahead. We're seeing more kiosks. We're, we're seeing more things like Amazon Go. And the number of workers in... as a, as a cashier in retail is immense. And, you know, there's, there's no real answers on how they transform their skills and, and work into, into something else. And I think that does lead to a lot of really negative ramifications. And the important point that he brought up, um, around universal basic income, is given that the shift is going to come (clears throat) and given it is going to take time to, um, set people up with new skills and new careers, they need to have a floor to be able to survive. And this $1,000 a month is such a floor. Um, it's not going to incentivize you to quit your job because it's not enough, but it will enable you to not have to worry as much about just getting on day-to-day, um, so that you can focus on, "What am, what am I going to do now and what am I going to, um... what skills do I need to acquire?" Um, and I think (clears throat) , I think, you know, a lot of people point to the fact that, you know, during the industrial age, we, we had the same concerns around automation and factory lines and everything worked out okay. But the, the, the biggest change is just the, the, the velocity and the centralization of a lot of the things that make this work, which is the data, um, and the algorithms that work on this, on this data. I think the, the second biggest scary thing is just how... around AI, is just who actually owns the, the data and who can operate on it. And, um, are we able to share the insights from the data so that we can also build algorithms that help our needs or help our business or whatnot? So, that's where I think regulation could play a strong and positive part. Um, first looking at the primitives of AI and the tools we use to build these services that will ultimately touch every single aspect of the human experience, and then how data, um... where data is owned, um, and how it's, how it's shared. Um, so those, those are the answers that as a society, as a world, we need to have better answers around, which we're currently not. They're just way too centralized into a few very, very large companies. But I think he was spot on with identifying the problem and proposing solutions that would actually work. At least that we'd learn from that you could expand or evolve.

    14. LFLex Fridman40:30

        Right.

    15. JDJack Dorsey40:30

        Um, but I mean, it's... I think it's... UBI is well, well past its, its due. I mean, it was certainly trumpeted by Martin Luther King and, and even, even before him as well.

    16. LFLex Fridman40:44

        And like you said, like, uh, y- you know, the exact $1,000 mark might be, uh... might not be the correct one, but you should take the steps to try to, um, to implement these solutions and see-

    17. JDJack Dorsey40:55

        Yeah.

    18. LFLex Fridman40:55

        ... see what works.

    19. JDJack Dorsey40:56

        100%.

12. 40:57 – 45:49

    Eating one meal a day

    1. JDJack Dorsey40:57

    2. LFLex Fridman40:57

       So I think you and I eat similar diets. Uh, at least I was, uh-

    3. JDJack Dorsey41:01

       The first time I've heard this.

    4. LFLex Fridman41:04

       (laughs) Yeah. So I was doing it before-

    5. JDJack Dorsey41:05

       First time anyone has said that to me. In this case, anyway.

    6. LFLex Fridman41:08

       Yeah.

    7. JDJack Dorsey41:08

       (laughs)

    8. LFLex Fridman41:09

       But it, it's becoming more and more cool. Uh, and... but I was doing it before it was cool. So the intermittent fasting and fasting in general, I da- I really enjoy. I love food, but I enjoy the f- the... I also love suffering 'cause I'm Russian, so fasting kind of, um, makes you appreciate the, um, uh, makes you appreciate what it is to be human somehow. So... but I have a s- uh, outside the philosophical stuff, I have a more specific question. It also helps me as a programmer and a deep thinker, like, so for un- from a scientific perspective to sit there for many hours and focus deeply. Maybe you were a hacker before you were CEO. What have you learned about diet, lifestyle, mindset that helps you maximize mental performance to be able to focus for, um... to think deeply in this world of distractions?

    9. JDJack Dorsey42:04

       I, I think I just took it for granted for too long. Um-

    10. LFLex Fridman42:08

        Which aspects?

    11. JDJack Dorsey42:09

        Just the social structure of we eat three meals a day and there's snacks in between and, um... I just never really asked the question, why?

    12. LFLex Fridman42:19

        Oh, by the way, in case people don't know, I think, uh, a lot of people know, but you, you at least... you famously eat once a day.

    13. JDJack Dorsey42:26

        Yeah.

    14. LFLex Fridman42:26

        You still eat once a day?

    15. JDJack Dorsey42:27

        Yep. I eat, I eat, I eat dinner.

    16. LFLex Fridman42:29

        By the way, what made you decide to eat once a day? Like, 'cause to me that was a huge revolution that you don't have to eat breakfast. That was like-

    17. JDJack Dorsey42:36

        (laughs)

    18. LFLex Fridman42:36

        I felt like I was a rebel, like I-

    19. JDJack Dorsey42:38

        Yeah.

    20. LFLex Fridman42:38

        ... like abandoned my parents or something and-

    21. JDJack Dorsey42:40

        It does feel-

    22. LFLex Fridman42:40

        ... become an anarchist.

    23. JDJack Dorsey42:41

        When you, when you first... like the first week you start doing it, it feels like you kind of like have a superpower.

    24. LFLex Fridman42:45

        Yeah.

    25. JDJack Dorsey42:45

        Then you realize it's not really a superpower. But it... I think you realize, at least I realized, like it... just how much is... how much our mind, um-... uh, dictates what we're possible of. Um, and, uh, and sometimes we have structures around us that incentivize, like, you know, this three meal a- a day thing, which is purely social, um, structure versus necessity for our health and for our bodies. And, um, I, I did it just... I, I started doing it because, um, I played a lot with my diet when I was a kid and I was vegan for two years and just went all over the place, um, uh, just because I... You know, health is the most precious thing we have and none of us really understand it. So being able to ask the question through experiments that I can perform on myself and, um, learn about, I, I, is compelling to me. And I heard this one guy on a podcast, Wim Hof, um, who's famous for doing ice baths and holding his breath and, um, all these things. Um, he said he only eats one meal a day. I'm like, "Wow, that sounds super challenging and uncomfortable. (laughs) I'm gonna do it."

    26. LFLex Fridman44:01

        (laughs) Sure.

    27. JDJack Dorsey44:01

        Um, so I, I just... I learn the most when I make myself... I wouldn't say suffer, but when I make myself feel uncomfortable. Um, because everything comes to bear in those moments and, uh, and y- you really learn what you're, what you're about or what you're not. Um, so I- I've been doing that my whole life. Like, when I was a kid I could not... like, I was... I could not speak. Like, I had to go to a speech therapist and it made me extremely shy. And then one day I realized, "I can't keep doing this," and I signed up for the, for the speech, um, club. And, you know, it was, uh, the most uncomfortable thing I could imagine doing, getting a topic on a note card, having five minutes to write a speech about whatever that topic is, not being able to use the note card when I was speaking and speaking for five minutes about that topic. So, um, but it- it just... it puts so much... it gave me so much pers- perspective around the power of communication, around my own deficiencies and around, um, if I set my mind to do something, I'll do it. So, um, it gave me a lot more confidence. So I see fasting in the same light. This is something that was interesting, challenging, uncomfortable, and has given me so much learning and benefit as a result, and it'll lead to other things that I'll experiment with and play with. But, um, yeah, it does feel a little bit like a superpower sometimes.

    28. LFLex Fridman45:38

        (laughs)

    29. JDJack Dorsey45:39

        The most boring superpower one can imagine.

    30. LFLex Fridman45:42

        No, it's g- it's quite incredible. The clarity of mind is, uh, is pretty interesting. Speaking of suffering,

13. 45:49 – 47:50

    Mortality

    1. LFLex Fridman45:49

       you kind of talk about facing difficult ideas. You meditate, you think about the broad context of life, uh, of our societies. Let me ask sort of... I apologize again for the romanticized question, but do you ponder your own mortality? Do you think about death, about the finiteness of human existence when you meditate, when you think about it? And if you do, what... how do you make sense of it that this thing ends?

    2. JDJack Dorsey46:22

       Well, I don't try to make sense of it. I do think about it every day. I mean, it's- it's a daily... mul- multiple times a day and-

    3. LFLex Fridman46:29

       Are you afraid of death?

    4. JDJack Dorsey46:30

       No, I'm not afraid of it. Um, I, I think it's, um, it's a transformation. I don't know to what. But it's also a tool, um, to feel the importance of every moment. Um, so I, I just use it as a reminder, like, "I have an hour. Is this really what I'm going to spend the hour doing? Like, I only have so many more sunsets and sunrises to watch. Like, I'm not going to get up for it? I'm not gonna make sure that I, that I, that I try to see it?" So it- it just puts a lot into perspective and it helps me prioritize, um, I think. It's... I don't, I don't see it as something that's, like, um, that I dread or is- is dreadful. It- it's a, it's a tool that is available to every single person to use every day because it- it shows how precious life is and there's reminders every single day, whether it be your own health or a friend or a coworker or something you see in the news. Um, so it- it's... to me, it's just a question of what we do with that daily reminder. And for me it's, um, am I really focused on what matters? And sometimes that might be work, sometimes that might be friendships or family or relationships or, or whatnot. But that- that's... it's the ultimate clarifier in that

14. 47:50 – 48:59

    Meaning of life

    1. JDJack Dorsey47:50

       sense.

    2. LFLex Fridman47:51

       So on the question of what matters, another ridiculously big question of once you try to make sense of it, what do you think is the meaning of it all? The meaning of life? What gives you purpose, happiness, meaning?

    3. JDJack Dorsey48:07

       A l- a lot does. I mean, I mean, just being able to, uh, be aware of the fact that I'm alive is- is pretty, pretty meaningful. Um, the connections I feel with individuals, whether they're people I just meet or long-lasting friendships or my family is meaningful. Um, seeing people use something that I helped build is really meaningful and powerful to me. Um, uh, but, but that sense of... I mean, I think ultimately it comes down to a sense of connection, um, and just feeling like I am bigger, I, I am part of something that's bigger than myself and, like, I can feel it directly in small ways or large ways, however it manifests, um, is- is probably, uh, is probably it.

15. 48:59 – 51:13

    Simulation

    1. JDJack Dorsey48:59

    2. LFLex Fridman48:59

       Last question, do you think we're living in a simulation?

    3. JDJack Dorsey49:04

       Uh, (sighs) I don't know. It's a pretty fun one if we are. (laughs) Um, but also crazy and random, and, uh, wrought with tons of problems. Um, but... yeah.

    4. LFLex Fridman49:17

       W- would you have it any other way?

    5. JDJack Dorsey49:19

       Yeah. I mean, I just think it's taken us way too long to... as a, as a planet, to realize we're all in this together, and we all are connected, um, in, uh, in, in very significant ways. Um, I think we, we hide our connectivity very well through ego, through, you know, whatever, whatever it is of the day. But, um, that is the one thing I would wanna work towards changing, and that's, uh, how I would have it another way. 'Cause if, if we can't do that, then how are we gonna connect to the- all the other simulations?

    6. LFLex Fridman49:55

       (laughs)

    7. JDJack Dorsey49:55

       'Cause that's the next step, is like, "What's happening in the other simulation?"

    8. LFLex Fridman49:58

       E- escaping this one, and, uh... yeah. (laughs)

    9. JDJack Dorsey50:02

       (laughs)

    10. LFLex Fridman50:03

        Spanning across the multiple simulations, and, uh, sharing in and on the fun. I don't think there's a better way to end it. Jack, thank you so much for all the work you do.

    11. JDJack Dorsey50:12

        There's probably other ways that we've ended this in other simulations that may have been better.

    12. LFLex Fridman50:16

        We'll have to wait and see.

    13. JDJack Dorsey50:17

        (laughs)

    14. LFLex Fridman50:18

        Thanks so much for talking today.

    15. JDJack Dorsey50:19

        Thank you.

    16. LFLex Fridman50:21

        Thanks for listening to this conversation with Jack Dorsey, and thank you to our sponsor, MasterClass. Please consider supporting this podcast by signing up to MasterClass at masterclass.com/lex. If you enjoy this podcast, subscribe on YouTube, review it with five stars on Apple Podcasts, support it on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter @LexFridman. And now, let me leave you with some words about Bitcoin from Paul Graham. "I'm very intrigued by Bitcoin. It has all the signs of a paradigm shift. Hackers love it, yet it is described as a toy, just like microcomputers." Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

Episode duration: 51:13