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Jim Keller: The Future of Computing, AI, Life, and Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #162

Jim Keller is a legendary microprocessor engineer, previously at AMD, Apple, Tesla, Intel, and now Tenstorrent. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - Athletic Greens: https://athleticgreens.com/lex and use code LEX to get 1 month of fish oil - Brooklinen: https://brooklinen.com and use code LEX to get $25 off + free shipping - ExpressVPN: https://expressvpn.com/lexpod and use code LexPod to get 3 months free - Belcampo: https://belcampo.com/lex and use code LEX to get 20% off first order EPISODE LINKS: Jim's Twitter: https://twitter.com/jimkxa Jim's Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Keller_(engineer) Tenstorrent: https://www.tenstorrent.com/ PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ Full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4 Clips playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41 OUTLINE: 0:00 - Introduction 1:33 - Good design is both science and engineering 7:33 - Javascript 11:40 - RISC vs CISC 15:39 - What makes a great processor? 17:09 - Intel vs ARM 18:58 - Steve Jobs and Apple 21:36 - Elon Musk and Steve Jobs 27:21 - Father 31:03 - Perfection 37:18 - Modular design 42:52 - Moore's law 49:50 - Hardware for deep learning 56:44 - Making neural networks fast at scale 1:04:22 - Andrej Karpathy and Chris Lattner 1:08:36 - How GPUs work 1:12:43 - Tesla Autopilot, NVIDIA, and Mobileye 1:17:23 - Andrej Karpathy and Software 2.0 1:23:43 - Tesla Dojo 1:26:20 - Neural networks will understand physics better than humans 1:28:33 - Re-engineering the human brain 1:33:26 - Infinite fun and the Culture Series by Iain Banks 1:35:20 - Neuralink 1:40:43 - Dreams 1:44:37 - Ideas 1:54:49 - Aliens 1:59:46 - Jordan Peterson 2:04:44 - Viruses 2:07:52 - WallStreetBets and Robinhood 2:15:55 - Advice for young people 2:17:45 - Human condition 2:20:14 - Fear is a cage 2:25:04 - Love 2:31:27 - Regrets SOCIAL: - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LexFridmanPage - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman - Reddit: https://reddit.com/r/lexfridman - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman

Lex FridmanhostJim Kellerguest
Feb 18, 20212h 39mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Jim Keller on AI Hardware, Human Brains, Leadership, and Legacy

  1. Jim Keller and Lex Fridman explore the interplay between theory, engineering, and craftsmanship in building great hardware and software systems, using examples from CPUs, GPUs, and AI accelerators.
  2. They discuss the evolution of computing architectures, the rise of graph-based AI workloads, and Keller’s current work at Tenstorrent on hardware designed specifically for neural network graphs.
  3. Beyond technology, they dive into leadership, organizational politics, creativity, depression, love, consciousness, and how personal history and mindset shape engineering careers.
  4. The conversation repeatedly returns to how modular design, deep understanding, and a love of the craft enable both better machines and better lives.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Great engineering is more about craftsmanship than constant invention.

Keller argues that most value comes from doing the basics extremely well—clean abstractions, robust tools, and solid 'bricks'—rather than chasing patentable novelties that often don’t matter.

Modularity and well-defined abstraction layers enable both beauty and scale.

Beautiful systems let components evolve independently (like network stacks or Zen’s modular CPU blocks), reducing cross-coupling bugs and making large, complex designs understandable to finite human minds.

AI workloads want graph-native hardware, not repurposed GPU pipelines.

Neural networks are naturally graphs of operations (matmuls, convolutions, data moves); Tenstorrent’s chips execute these graphs directly with packet-based, on-chip networks instead of emulating them as tiny programs on pixels.

Scaling computation is now often about more machines, not just better chips.

Performance gains in AI come from combining modest per-chip Moore’s Law advances with massive scaling across clusters of GPUs/accelerators, even if that makes individual computations less “efficient” in the classical sense.

Creative tension between ‘perfect’ and ‘shippable’ is essential.

Keller stresses you can’t let schedules kill ambitious ideas, nor let perfectionism prevent shipping; good teams host idea generators, brutal filters, and executors, all negotiating that tension together.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

Good engineering is great craftsmanship, and when you start thinking engineering is about invention, the craftsmanship gets neglected.

— Jim Keller

A beautiful design can’t be bigger than the person doing it.

— Jim Keller

The future of software is data programs—the networks—rather than humans writing all the code.

— Jim Keller

You’re not along for the ride. You are the ride.

— Jim Keller

If you find yourself repeating what everybody else is saying, you’re not gonna have a good life.

— Jim Keller

Theory vs. engineering, invention vs. craftsmanship in computingCPU/GPU evolution, RISC vs. CISC, and industry dynamics (Intel, ARM, NVIDIA)AI hardware, graph-native architectures, and Tenstorrent’s design philosophyScaling, Moore’s Law, and the future of computation and AI (Dojo, Software 2.0)Human cognition, the brain, consciousness, dreams, and neuroplasticityLeadership, organizational order vs. chaos, and political dynamics in companiesPersonal life: depression, love, family, Jordan Peterson’s benzo struggle, and legacy

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