John Danaher: Grappling, Jiu Jitsu, ADCC, and Animal Combat | Lex Fridman Podcast #328

1. 0:00 – 0:48

   Introduction

   1. JDJohn Danaher0:00

      A male chimp is more than enough to kill any human on the planet, including Gordon Ryan.

   2. LFLex Fridman0:04

      So Gordon Ryan fighting a chimp-

   3. JDJohn Danaher0:07

      Dead.

   4. LFLex Fridman0:07

      ... a good size-

   5. JDJohn Danaher0:08

      Dead.

   6. LFLex Fridman0:08

      No, a thousand times. How many times does he win?

   7. JDJohn Danaher0:11

      He loses a thousand times. It's not even competitive. It's not even remotely competitive.

   8. LFLex Fridman0:15

      Do you think he will disagree?

   9. JDJohn Danaher0:18

      No.

   10. LFLex Fridman0:19

       Okay. Do you think anyone will disagree? Anyone-

   11. JDJohn Danaher0:22

       Yeah, morons.

   12. LFLex Fridman0:26

       (laughs) The following is a conversation with John Danaher, his third time on this podcast. He's widely considered to be one of the greatest minds in martial arts history. This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's John Danaher.

2. 0:48 – 19:20

   Road to ADCC

   1. LFLex Fridman0:48

      The ADCC is the premier submission grappling tournament in the world. We just had it a couple of weeks ago. We saw many demonstrations of greatness from athletes you coached. But a year ago, the team and you were at a very low point. Take me through that journey. What was the lowest point?

   2. JDJohn Danaher1:09

      We ha- had a very, very tight team for many years, uh, which began N- in New York City. During the peak of COVID, training in New York became very difficult to sustain, so, um, most of the team, uh, despised the city of New York. I, I was the only person in the group that liked living in New York. Um, I think part of the problem was that, uh, uh, I was the only one who actually lived in Manhattan. The others had to commute to New York. And there's a world of difference between living in New York and commuting to New York. So most of them had a very negative view of New York City. That was compounded by COVID, uh, when even the basic act of training became very, very difficult. And, uh, so everyone decided they want to leave. So there was a prospect of a complete breakup between myself and the team, or I would have to leave New York. I... It was a difficult decision for me to make 'cause I'd lived in New York for 30 years. Um, I had built my life there and had most of my friends and associates, uh, uh, that I know here in America w- New Yorkers. So I thought, you know, these guys have been an unsaint- uh, incredibly loyal to me as students, so I should also be loyal to them, of course. So I decided that if they wanted to leave, I would go with them. We decided, uh, to go to Puerto Rico because there was a, uh, a private gym where we could train through the COVID period. Um, I personally wanted to go to Texas. I thought that Texas was a, a better place for the team to go. But, um, many of the students, uh, including senior students like, uh, Gordon Ryan, Craig Jones, had been to Puerto Rico and stayed with one of the head officials of ADCC, Moe Jasem. So, uh, they loved their experience in Puerto Rico and, uh, almost everyone wanted to go down there. So I tried to explain to them there's a world of difference between going to a place for vacation versus living there, but that didn't have any effect. So the decision was made, a majority decision was made to go to Puerto Rico. Um, in Puerto Rico, the conditions in which the team lived changed significantly. When you're in New York, New York is such a big city that if there's any, uh, tension between team members and inevitably there will be in a competitive sport where everyone's fighting each other, you can kind of bury them in the size of the city because there's so many distractions in New York. You know, you come in, you do your workout, you go outside, and it's, it's New York City. Um, in Puerto Rico, we lived in a very small, uh, local town, Dorado, and, um, most of the athletes were living with each other. And so unlike New York where there was always a break, you train together but when training was over, you went about your life in New York and New Jersey. Um, with everyone living in very close proximity to each other, any tensions got magnified because there was no relief from them. You didn't get to get away from people. If you had a problem with someone on the mat, well, now you had to do, to live with them for, uh, the rest of the, the day and the night, and this goes on for long periods of time. So I believe it had the effect of magnifying whatever tensions there were. In particular, there was a, uh, a family tension between two brothers which magnified over time. Um, uh, and, you know, as, as so often is the case, you get two brothers growing up, one older, one younger, and the younger one wants to grow and, uh, and feel somewhat like a, a young tree underneath a bigger tree. And, um, uh, sometimes people just need their space. So there was some, there was some unhappiness and, um-

   3. LFLex Fridman5:08

      As a younger brother, I can understand.

   4. JDJohn Danaher5:10

      Yeah, yeah.

   5. LFLex Fridman5:11

      As a little tree that had to grow up under a bigger tree.

   6. JDJohn Danaher5:15

      Yeah. So, um-

   7. LFLex Fridman5:16

      Fuck the big tree (laughs) .

   8. JDJohn Danaher5:18

      (laughs) My God. There's, there's-

   9. LFLex Fridman5:19

      There's a lot of aggression I have to work on. I'm sorry.

   10. JDJohn Danaher5:20

       (laughs) Unresolved family issues coming out here, Lex.

   11. LFLex Fridman5:22

       Yes, I... That's for sure.

   12. JDJohn Danaher5:22

       So, um-

   13. LFLex Fridman5:22

       I'm just kidding. I love you.

   14. JDJohn Danaher5:24

       He, he doesn't. He's lying (laughs) .

   15. LFLex Fridman5:26

       (laughs)

   16. JDJohn Danaher5:26

       So, uh, as time went by, these, these tensions started, uh, increasing. They came to a, a point where, um, it was difficult for them even to be in the training room together. At that point, you're starting to, you know... When, once training takes a hit, then you, you got to start to address these. Um, the attempts at reconciliation, uh, fell through and, uh, a decision was made to, to move to Texas. I wanted everyone to move as a team. What I wanted to do was keep the team together-... as long as the period leading up to ADCC so that everyone could train together. So I said, "Okay, there's problems, but let's just tough it out. One year. We move to Texas. Let's just go there and keep unity." If some people don't want to train with other people, that's fine, but I believed that the team would be weakened by breaking apart. I believed that they had an excellent rapport as training partners. Their technical level was increasing dramatically. Um, many of the younger athletes were really starting to come into their own and really develop well. And so my take on it was, "Okay, if there's problems, so be it. But let's all just stay together until ADCC 2022 as a unified team, go out, prepare yourselves as best you can, and, um, uh, and then after that we can make a decision as to whether we break up or not." Um, but that was rejected and, uh, the team split and, um, uh, they moved to Austin. Uh, we'd made prior arrangements to go to, uh, a local gym and, uh, they took that gym and, uh, we were left, uh, with no gym and, uh, more or less homeless in, uh, in Austin. So, uh, I-

   17. LFLex Fridman7:20

       A year out from ADCC?

   18. JDJohn Danaher7:22

       Yes. This is one year out. So roughly three-quarters of the, uh, competitive athletes left in, uh, in one week. Um, so, uh, at that point, uh, that was probably the lowest point because at, at that point, not only did we not have a place to train, um, we had very few training partners for the few that had remained. And, um, uh, the main athlete in the team, Gordon Ryan, was going through a particularly bad spell with his unresolved stomach issues, and there was doubt as to whether or not he could compete at all and was actively thinking about retiring from the sport.

   19. LFLex Fridman8:01

       Yeah, so maybe not compete ever again potentially.

   20. JDJohn Danaher8:03

       Yeah, yeah. So that, that was a time when it was like, man, this, the whole program seems to be dead in the water at this point. Um, uh, most of the competitive athletes were gone, there were very few training partners for the few that remained, and the main athlete around whom the, the group had initially bonded, um, was seemingly out of action possibly permanently.

   21. LFLex Fridman8:25

       Where was your mind? Where were you mentally?

   22. JDJohn Danaher8:27

       Uh, my, my, my thinking is everything bad passes in time. I've had a lot of bad points in my life. So, um, uh, my life experiences, whenever things seem dark, have patience. Time will ultimately cure most ills. Not all of them, but most of them. And, um, uh, I'm confident that if you give me a new crop of students, I can, I can produce magic, but it's gonna take time.

   23. LFLex Fridman9:00

       So that confidence was, uh, in part a source of strength?

   24. JDJohn Danaher9:03

       Yes. It's just like-

   25. LFLex Fridman9:04

       In that moment? Yeah.

   26. JDJohn Danaher9:04

       I, I wasn't confident that ADCC 2022 would go well because we only had one year without a gym and with a team that was completely broken up to, um, to, to even attempt to get into ADCC. So, um, uh, things looked a little grim, but I was confident, you know, given enough time, I would get a, a new, uh, group of students and, and work. Um, as it turns out, uh, one of the, uh, demonstration partners that, uh, I used during filming for instructional videos who lives in Boston, uh, Giancarlo Bodoni, was interested in the idea of coming down and training, but he'd always felt like it would be difficult because there were people in his weight class who, who were already there and he felt it would be awkward. Um, but now that they had left, that opened up an area for him. So he was the first one to come down. He moved from Boston to, um, uh, Austin, Texas. I began teaching at a local school. It was rather like going back into my earliest days in jiu-jitsu. I went from teaching at the big Renzo Gracie academy to a tiny school in Puerto Rico and now an even smaller school in Austin, Texas. And locals would come in and train, and I would watch every day, teaching there twice a day, seven days a week, um, and I would see people come in and train and I would say, "This guy has some potential or this guy has some potential." And I would recruit people and bring them to an, uh, another gym where they would train with the professionals and if they proved adept and hardworking and someone who can work well in a team, uh, they would stay and, and build their skills. As time went by, um, more and more such people started coming in and we had some remarkable people like, uh, a young South African, purple belt, Luke Griffith came in. Uh, he had lost in the European trials, uh, for ADCC and he was down on his luck. He came into Austin, he did a, a show against a local purple belt and lost again. So he was like, uh, feeling bad about his performance and his future and he came in and I, I thought he was a, uh, a lovely kid who worked hard and trained well. Um, so he became one of the main training partners. He was similar size to Gordon, so I encouraged him to train with, with Gordon whenever he could. And, uh, e- more and more people started coming in to train under that kind of basis. Um, one day I got a text from, uh, Gordon who was filming an instructional video in Boston. He said, "Hey, you know, Nicolas Meregali was training at this... He was, uh, shooting video at the same time as me and we, we just, uh, did some grappling. He's a really nice guy and, uh, he's literally never trained with- without a gi before." He's, uh, for those of you who don't know, Nicolas Meregali is a, uh, one of the outstanding gi jiu-jitsu competitors of his generation. Um, has an amazing, uh, game and is, is a superstar with, with the, uh, the gi side of the sport, but had ne- never even trained without a gi once in his life. So his first ever-... no-gi training session is with Gordon Ryan, the best no-gi competitor of all time. And, uh, I remember Gordon texting me saying, "He's really talented. He's a nice guy and, um, he wants to come down to Texas and train." So I was like, "Yeah, sounds great." So over time, just more and more people started coming in and, um, uh, I told everyone like, "You guys are at a severe disadvantage." Like, "You're- you've got very little time to get ready for ADCC." Luke wasn't even in ADCC, he had to win trials. Same for Dan Manasoeu, he had failed at trials and needed to get a win to even get into ADCC. So around this time, a doctor suggested by Mo Jassim, who had himself had stomach issues earlier in his life, began working with Gordon Ryan, and-

   27. LFLex Fridman13:00

       And Mo is the organizer of ADCC?

   28. JDJohn Danaher13:02

       Yes.

   29. LFLex Fridman13:03

       For people who don't know.

   30. JDJohn Danaher13:04

       Yeah. He's the, uh, the head organizer. Um, he was able to get Gordon Ryan not cured, but significantly better than he was before, and to a level where Gordon could, could train up to five to six days a week. And it was a big improvement on what was going on during the end of the time in Puerto Rico. So things started moving. We had a core group of, uh, athletes, uh, training at, um, a local gym, um, which was very, very generously offered to us by, uh, uh, the head manager of ROKA Sunglasses, a company here in, um, Austin, Texas. They have a private corporate gym which we were able to, to train in. And these talented youngsters from around the globe essentially came together and I said, "You guys are gonna have to train harder than you've ever trained in your lives because you've got less time to get ready for this than anyone. And, uh, you're going to be going up against people potentially who know exactly what I teach, because I've been teaching them a lot longer than I've been teaching you, um, in addition to the other best people in the world." So it was an incredible challenge for them, and I must say all of them gave literally everything they had. Everything I asked for, they gave twice as much. And we had a crazy training schedule, as many as three classes per day. I know that sounds easy, you know, three classes a day, right? But try doing it sometime. These classes are not your average classes. These are preparation for ADCC. As they-
3. 19:20 – 28:04

   Danaher Death Squad

   1. JDJohn Danaher19:20

   2. LFLex Fridman19:20

      If we can just linger on the low point, is it heartbreaking to you that the, uh, so-called Danaher Death Squad split, or the team, as it was originally called, split? You know, we live a short life on this earth, and you put so much of your love and work into this team, and everybody put in the work. Does it break your heart?

   3. JDJohn Danaher19:44

      It was a sad time, yeah. It was. Um, it was, uh, you know, I'm not a particularly emotional person, um, but it was a, it was an emotional time for everyone. It was, uh, it had an element of tragedy insofar as not only was it a team breakup, it was also a family breakup, which is much more serious. Um, I do believe that in time, uh, even the most intense family breakups can be reconciled, and I also believe that once dialog begins, people will remember just how easy it was for us to get along and how tight we were for many, many years. Um, it's so easy to let a minute of anger destroy 10 years of, of, uh, of friendship. So, but there's also the weight of those 10 years. Like, um, when I ran into the old squad members at ADCC, we got along like a house on fire. It's like we never had a problem. Um-

   4. LFLex Fridman20:52

      So, a house on fire is a good thing?

   5. JDJohn Danaher20:54

      Yes, yes. Sorry, that's a New Zealand expression, yeah.

   6. LFLex Fridman20:57

      (laughs)

   7. JDJohn Danaher20:57

      Uh, yeah, that, that definitely could have gone the other way, right? Um, so-

   8. LFLex Fridman21:03

      Only a New Zealander would say that it's a good thing, yeah. (laughs)

   9. JDJohn Danaher21:05

      Um, so there's this, I, I still believe, you know, in, in time things will be fine, but, um, there was an element where, you know, y- youngsters need to grow, and, um, uh, sometimes ... Think, think about it this way, from the athlete's perspective. There's a, definitely a generational problem. I'm much older than my students, okay? And the, the, the years and the, the viewpoint that I have is a reflection of the time in which I grew up. And, uh, they're from a completely different generation with a completely different worldview. Um, it's, it's gotta be hard from the athlete's perspective when you're training seven days a week and you, you're getting very, very good. You're beating everyone that's getting, getting put in front of you, and you're losing very, very rarely, and it's always a tough competitive match when you do. Everyone around you is calling you a superstar, and you look phenomenal. You check social media, everyone's saying you're, you're a god on the mat. And then you come into the gym and there's some old guy telling you you're not good enough. And you, every day it's like, "Well, what does this guy want from me? How, how hard do I have to work?" Like, "You're not good enough." Like, "I want you to be the best in the world. I want you to be good. I want you to be great." And all your friends are telling you all day, "Man, you're incredible. You submit me so easily. You do this, you..." And then this old guy is just like, "No. You gotta get better. You gotta work more. You're not working hard enough." At some point you're gonna be like, "You know what? Fuck this old guy."

   10. LFLex Fridman22:46

       Yeah.

   11. JDJohn Danaher22:47

       Like, it's, it's tough, you know, mentally. I, I get why, you know, they, they left. When I was 20 years old I didn't get along with authority figures at all. And, um, uh, to have someone telling you, you, "You've always gotta work that little bit harder," and, "No, your skill set's not complete, you still need this, this, and this," when you're already doing very, very well, and far better than all but a tiny, tiny percentage of people, and then you've got this guy just constantly telling you, "No, more has to be done. You're not there yet." Um, I can, uh, you know, of course I understand. You just want, you know, "Let me just enjoy this more." Like, uh, it's always a choice in life. You, you can be the best you possibly can, or you can go a route where you just get to enjoy life a little more, you do other things. You know, like, there's more to the, to life than just the inside of a gym and learning how to do a better heel hook or a better double leg. Um, so, of course, you know, years go by, you wanna try other things and, um, uh, you have to make this choice in life between extreme excellence versus being incredibly good but maybe just enjoying my life a little more.

   12. LFLex Fridman23:58

       Yeah, it's so interesting that incredibly good is a hard thing to deal with. It's all, like, when Kayla Harrison won her first gold medal in t-, at the Olympics. You know, to go back to the gym and to trust, again, the, maybe the old man. You're, you're being, (laughs) too harsh on yourself, but to trust the old man, so, uh, Jimmy Pajor, and Jimmy Pajor Sr. in that case, to say, "Okay, we're gonna go back to this grind."

   13. JDJohn Danaher24:24

       Mm-hmm.

   14. LFLex Fridman24:24

       And there's still-...a path to improvement, there's still a lot to grow, and still have the humility even though you've just demonstrated greatness. So, really good is just a stepping stone to- to- to- to true greatness. Um, that's really tough for athletes.

   15. JDJohn Danaher24:41

       Yeah.

   16. LFLex Fridman24:41

       Like, uh, winning is actually very difficult (laughs) .

   17. JDJohn Danaher24:44

       Yeah.

   18. LFLex Fridman24:44

       Gold medals are very difficult. Plus, there's the personal stuff of depression that comes with that, which is, you give so much of yourself to trying to win that. And once you do, there's a lot of personal stuff you have to deal with, which is like, "W- what, uh, what do I want from life?" To understand what is exactly, "What am I chasing? Is it just winning, or is it some bigger picture of excellence that's beyond just winning?" So that- that's all- all of that mixed up together. And then when you have to be, as a team, really close together, there's the personal relationships. All of that gets exacerbated.

   19. JDJohn Danaher25:20

       Yeah.

   20. LFLex Fridman25:20

       Do you think the team ever gets back together?

   21. JDJohn Danaher25:24

       I think there's al- you know, there's definitely a chance of that. Right now, I think they have a, uh, an excellent team themselves, and, uh, they're doing very well. Uh, they had an excellent performance at ADCC, so there's not a need for them to, uh, to come to us as like, they- they lack anything. They still remember everything I taught them. They still coach and teach with the same methodology that I taught them. So, um, uh, I don't think they have any need to do so. Uh, if they did, it would be 'cause they wanted to. Um, I still think many of the same personality conflicts that originated the conflict would reemerge currently if- if they started training together.

   22. LFLex Fridman26:03

       Uh, by the way, to- to pile on the compliments, they have really nice merch, too. The T-shirts are just excellent. Um, what have you learned from that process about how to have a team with personal conflicts? Do you have to deal with these giant egos as well?

   23. JDJohn Danaher26:17

       Yeah.

   24. LFLex Fridman26:17

       'Cause the ego is a- is a, in part, a superpower, too. So you don't wanna

   25. JDJohn Danaher26:21

       Yeah, you- you- you don't wanna suppress egos. I- I always laugh when people say, "Leave your ego at the door." (laughs) Like, what- what do you think drives competition?

   26. LFLex Fridman26:30

       Yeah.

   27. JDJohn Danaher26:30

       Like, if you wanna be good at anything in life, you gotta have an ego. Um, uh, no. I- I don't believe it's good, or even a healthy thing, to suppress egos. Um, I'm- I'm a realist, and I understand that this is a sport where they make one gold medal per weight division. As- as guys get better, they're gonna be looking at their training partners and thinking like, "I'm gonna have to fight this guy one day." And they're training next to each other. Of course there's gonna be tension. Um, there's always gonna be, uh, disagreements about, you know, what's the right way to act around, uh, certain people, certain issues. And people are gonna come into conflict. Everyone's been programmed to be a- a- an alpha competitor. You got a room full of people like that, there's gonna be conflict. Uh, your question was, "Well, is there a way to resolve this?" Yeah, there was. And for eight to nine years, I was very successful with this. But there's also a tipping point where things can flare out of control, and there will be periodic breakups. You know, they're not the first students I had that- that left. I've been coaching a lot longer that I've been coaching this squad. And, um, uh, I'm sure in the future there'll be other students who leave me. Like, that's just the nature of the beast. It's sad when it happens, but life goes on.

   28. LFLex Fridman27:51

       Uh, like Bukowski said, "Love is a fog that fades w- with the first, uh, daylight of reality," or something like that. So e- even love is temporary (laughs) . Uh,

4. 28:04 – 52:49

   Mental preparation

   1. LFLex Fridman28:04

      let me ask you about leading up the- the preparation for the athletes. I mean, this is such... Given the darkness from- from a year ago from which you had to find glimmers of light and try to get greatness out of athletes, what was the mental preparation like? For Gordon, for Nicholas, uh, for Giancarlo, for the other athletes? What was the mental side of things like? Is there some key insights you can give to their mental preparation?

   2. JDJohn Danaher28:33

      I really think that people, when they talk about mental preparation, need to take a step back and realize that almost every element of what people describe as mental preparation has physical underpinnings. Um, literally 95% of what I teach the athletes is physical skills. And it's my belief that every mental aspect of competition, the most important of which will be confidence on stage, is a direct result of the a- the accumulation of physical skills. People tend to see things like confidence as a mental state. It is, but it comes out of the performance of physical skills. All my life, I've seen sports psychologists try to create confidence in athletes through non-physical means. And it always ends up being the same kind of cheesy motivational speeches, um, highlight video reels where they try to pump artificial confidence into people. And I've never been impressed by this, nor have I seen it have any kind of positive effect on- on athlete performance. What I do see build confidence is the sense that athletes are developing skills and using them successfully under conditions that closely mirror the event they're preparing for. Once they get this down, that's where true confidence comes from. Confidence doesn't come from words. It comes from accumulated skills, which experience shows you have been, uh, responsible for successful performances in the past. And if you accumulate enough of these, your confidence rises. So-When it comes to the mental aspects of competition, I created a program where everyone had a... was given a set of skills that they had to work on, skills directly related to what I believe is the most important elements of success in ADCC competition. In the gym, they accumulated those skills over time. I do it in two different ways, depending on whether these are offensive skills or defensive skills. For the accumulation of offensive skills, I like to have my athletes work with athletes who are lesser than themselves in ability so that they start to gain confidence over time. Just as you would never send a beginner into a weightlifting gym and put 500 pounds on the bar and tell him to lift it. Rather, you would start with a wooden bar, then the metal bar, and then gradually accumulate weight over time so you get a progression in weightlifting. So too in jujitsu, you don't take a brand-new move and say, "Okay, do it on Gordon Ryan." Never gonna succeed. Uh, I have the athletes practice their offense on blue belts and work their way up. Defense, on the other hand, you've got to start them in the deep end of the pool so that they start to see what are their vulnerabilities. Okay? So I put them with highly competitive athletes at the start so they can see, "Okay, there is a problem here." And then even in defense, they start off with lower belts and build up their confidence over time. So just as a weightlifter builds up his ability to build weight, uh, sorry, to lift weight over time, so too a jujitsu d- uh, player does it by gradually increasing resistance. Now, in jujitsu, resistance is not done by weight, it's done by skill level. And so over time, they started to accumulate this experience. In time, um, they, uh... W- were able to switch off and have them go against very, very tough athletes, each other. So, you know, uh, Luke Griffiths will do a full power match with Gordon Ryan. Now, they're fully aware that there's no one better in the world than Gordon Ryan. So if you have a competitive match with Gordon Ryan, that's a very, very healthy sign. So they went from the start, where they were being programmed going against relatively mild resistance and building up over time, and then building up to the greatest resistance possible in the sport of jujitsu. And their goal is not to win, obviously, but their goal is to provide a, a competitive match. Now, Gordon doesn't have any confidence issues. So for him, it's just good, hard, competitive training against people that are, uh, in some ways, better than those he'll be facing in competition. For the other guys, it's getting a, a clear assessment of what their current skill level is by going against the best there is. Then we add to this a competitive schedule, where the athletes have to go out into competitions, so they get used to the idea of performing in front of strangers onstage, getting used to the- the- the s- strange elements of going out, being observed and judged by people you don't know in a performance atmosphere. And so they were all given matches in WNO competition leading up to the event, uh, ADCC trials, local, uh, grappling events here in Austin, and given a competitive schedule to fight and prepare them for ADCC. Obviously, as ADCC got closer and closer, this was pulled back because of the danger of injury. Wh- so within a- about three weeks out was the last time we had a competition. And by this method, confidence starts to grow and, uh... And so the mental preparation came out of those physical underpinnings, the idea of progressive resistance increasing over time, uh, for both offense and defense, building up to a peak where they're going against the best athlete in the world so they can get an accurate assessment of where they stand. Once you're given a competitive match to the best guy in the world, you know damn well that when you go out in ADCC, you're ready to fight anybody.

   3. LFLex Fridman34:32

      And defense is broadly defined, so defense in- in, uh, symmetrical positions, like positions like guard, and then defense also includes escaping from horrible positions.

   4. JDJohn Danaher34:44

      Yes. Um, we're big believers in the idea of depth of defense, the idea that, uh, you should be able to mount defense all the way through from early stages based mostly around anticipation of identifying danger visually before it emerges and all the way through to the deepest levels of defense where you are 100% defensive in terrible positions and you have to claw your way out and, uh, over time and- and get back to a neutral position or, even better, back to an attacking position.

   5. LFLex Fridman35:12

      You have an Instagram post on this topic. Um, "When you get ready to step out for the biggest moment of your life, ask yourself one question: How different is this really from what I do every day? If the answer is not very different at all, then step forward with confidence and do what you do every day in the same manner and ignore the hype and distraction. You're ready for action." By the way, for people who don't know, you need to follow John Danaher, danaher_john on Instagram, 'cause, uh, you have nuggets or large buckets of nuggets of wisdom often, which is quite profound, even bigger than jujitsu. But anyway, so there's some aspect where you want to mimic the conditions of your daily training in, um, intensity. In- in what? For- so physical, uh, to that of the actual-

   6. JDJohn Danaher36:07

      Yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman36:07

      ... uh, matches.

   8. JDJohn Danaher36:08

      You asked a question about mental training. For- for me, um, the central focus of whatever small amount of mental training I give my students comes down to a- a very, very simple concept to understand. This is the idea of identifying competition in terms of its normalcy. Most people see training and competition as two different things. Training is normal activity that you do every day, and competition is the exception. Okay, it's different. You're going out. There's people watching you. There's a big crowd. They're making lots of noise. Um...In fact, the promoters of shows go out of their way to reinforce this. Look at, for example, ADCC, when Gordon Ryan went to fight André Galvão. Okay? Do they just come out on the mat and fight each other?

   9. LFLex Fridman36:56

      No.

   10. JDJohn Danaher36:57

       Absolutely not. There's-

   11. LFLex Fridman36:58

       They're exposed to fire and-

   12. JDJohn Danaher36:58

       There's music, there's pageantry, there's fireballs. They're literally shooting fireballs.

   13. LFLex Fridman37:03

       Yeah. Some dude in a tie sitting with Joe Rogan and some-

   14. JDJohn Danaher37:07

       I heard about that guy

   15. LFLex Fridman37:08

       ... meathead, uh, po- podcaster, comedian, whatever. Uh-

   16. JDJohn Danaher37:12

       Which one was the meathead?

   17. LFLex Fridman37:13

       (laughs) Well, well played, John Donahoe. Well played.

   18. JDJohn Danaher37:17

       But you see what they're trying to do. They're trying to create theater and pageantry, when in fact it's just a grappling match. It's just two athletes, a referee, and a rule set. That's, that's the reality. Now, what they try to sell you is something which is not reality, which is this is somehow bigger and different. And they reinforce this with pageantry and theater so that it becomes not just a grappling match, but a grappling performance, the same way you have a theater performance. And my goal as a coach is to dispel that and say, "When you go out there, there's only one reality. You, him, and the referee reinforcing a rule set. That's it." Everything else you see, the smoke, the fire, the music is an illusion. And it's put there intentionally to make you feel a certain kind of way, and your whole goal is to see this as an illusion and walk out and see only the reality, which is that this is the same damn thing you do every day in the gym. The only difference is you're going with a guy you've never grappled before.

   19. LFLex Fridman38:22

       So the actual act of removing the illusion or realizing that it is an illusion, how do you practice that? So when you step on the mat...

   20. JDJohn Danaher38:30

       Once you're aware of it, I, I, I always have them... It, it, it, it's like when you-

   21. LFLex Fridman38:35

       Yeah.

   22. JDJohn Danaher38:36

       ... when you see a magician and you have his tricks explained to you. You never see the magic again. The first time you see a good card trick from a, a good magician, it's, "Oh my God." Then when they explain it to you, "I, I did this, this, and this, step one, step two," then you look at it like, "Hmm, it's not that special." And when you explain to people this idea is that pageantry is an illusion, then just as when you watch the magician and you learn the trick, all the magic flies out the window, so too with the, the nervous response.

   23. LFLex Fridman39:12

       Well, so that's for the pageantry, but what about the, maybe the physical intensity of competition? Isn't there an extra...

   24. JDJohn Danaher39:21

       No, it's the same in every competition. There's just not like, you know, they're twice as strong in ADCC as they are in the IBJJF World Championships. They... It's the physical intensity is always pretty much the same. They experience it every day in the gym. And, um, uh, like, you know, if, if you go out and you grapple Gordon Ryan, it's not like the next guy you grapple is gonna be twice as strong as him or twice as fast. He's, he's g- Be a little stronger, a little faster, but not so much so that it completely changes your approach to the game. Um, you know, there's not that much difference between the human bodies out there on stage. So if you've, if y- if you've felt intensity before, you're not gonna be shocked by ADCC.

   25. LFLex Fridman40:00

       But in terms of in training, do you have to try to match the intensity of competition?

   26. JDJohn Danaher40:05

       No, um, that would be foolish. You'd be... Every athlete in the gym would be injured.

   27. LFLex Fridman40:08

       Yeah.

   28. JDJohn Danaher40:09

       Uh, you can do it for short periods of time. Um, but the, uh, the training has to be carefully monitored in terms of intensity levels. Remember, we're training seven days a week, a minimum of twice a day. Um, you, you've gotta keep things under wraps. Like, uh, you know, every other workout you can have a, like one of the five rounds can be full power, but not seven days a week, three times a day. That's, that's just gonna break bodies.

   29. LFLex Fridman40:35

       And the full power is just a reminder of-

   30. JDJohn Danaher40:39

       It's more about skill development. For us, it's al-
5. 52:49 – 1:49:47

   Gordon Ryan

   1. LFLex Fridman52:49

      for people just listening to this, we'll, I'll try to commentate on different things we'll look at. But the thing that was made clear is, uh, maybe you can speak to that, maybe to you it looks like efficiency, but to me it looked like, uh, Gordon was not even trying. There's a, um, a relaxed aspect to the whole thing. So maybe it had to do with saving energy, but he made it look very easy.

   2. JDJohn Danaher53:17

      Yeah.

   3. LFLex Fridman53:17

      And he made the, the path to submission look very easy. So here, the first match against an opponent that, again, looks bigger than him.

   4. JDJohn Danaher53:26

      Okay, I'll just give a, an initial comment here. Um, first you, you'll see that Gordon elected to sit to the bottom position. Um, the hardest work in submission grappling is when two athletes take the standing position and joust for takedowns. Uh, that's where most of the energy gets burned up. So working on the idea of energy efficiency, let's go out and we, we chose to sit into guard position, and then start looking to access our opponent's back. Because if our opponent's hit position, a far side arm drag makes a lot of sense. Gordon's able to beat the arm and quickly get behind his opponent. Now the question is gonna be getting into a scoring position. It's too early to score at this point, but we're just concerned at this, uh, stage of just energy expenditure and make the other guy work harder than us.

   5. LFLex Fridman54:08

      So, uh, Gordon did an arm drag to the back, and now is working on the hooks.

   6. JDJohn Danaher54:13

      Um, the hooks are not particularly important here. He, he will use it just to get stability on his opponent. But, um, interestingly, his opponent here had an interesting strategy too, which was to occupy bottom turtle position and, uh, and look to get to the critical five point demarca- sorry, uh, five-minute demarcation point where points begun, begin to get scored. His i- his idea, I believe, I'm speculating here based on his actions, was to keep Gordon at bay in a defensive turtle position until the five-minute mark occurred. In which case he would shake Gordon off, walk away, and force a take down battle.

   7. LFLex Fridman54:49

      How many people are, are comfortable in that? And what do you think about the defensive turtle position versus always trying to come back to guard?

   8. JDJohn Danaher54:57

      The turtle position is the second bottom position of jiu-jitsu. Many people only associate guard position with bottom position in jiu-jitsu. That's, that's naive. There's two. There's...... guard position and turtle position. Now, as a general rule, guard position offers a much, much greater variety of attacking options than turtle position does. Um, but that's not to say turtle position absolutely can be, uh, uh, an effective bottom position. You can work effectively from there.

   9. LFLex Fridman55:27

      So, there's some case to be made that to wait out five minutes-

   10. JDJohn Danaher55:31

       It-

   11. LFLex Fridman55:31

       ... turtle might be-

   12. JDJohn Danaher55:32

       I mean, I-

   13. LFLex Fridman55:32

       (laughs)

   14. JDJohn Danaher55:32

       ... I personally think it, agai- against Gordon Ryan, I mean, I admire the fellow's courage. I, I, um, it's not easy. Um, but there was a logic to what he was doing. Uh, people think, "Oh, he just got his back taken so easily." But the, he did have a strategy. Now, did he pick the right person to use that strategy against? Probably not. Um-

   15. LFLex Fridman55:52

       And so Gordon is able to, uh, break the turtle down, get one hook in, at which point, I-I-I, is i- is this becoming an, uh, extremely controlling position with Gordon-

   16. JDJohn Danaher56:06

       Yeah.

   17. LFLex Fridman56:06

       ... on the back? At which point is there ... are you happy with where it is?

   18. JDJohn Danaher56:10

       At, at, at this point, uh, it just started to dawn on me at this point that this guy actually had a strategy, which was to maintain a, a, a prone position that he's in now, and then shake Gordon off after the five-minute mark. So, um, uh, once that became obvious, then I was, uh, now I'm starting to look at the clock and how close we are. If we can take it up to five minutes. Right now, this guy's only intention is to stop Gordon from strangling him and finish. Okay. Now, the guy is trying to go up in vertical. Uh, freeze it there. Now, do you see how he's taking his elbows off the mat in turtle position? In jiu-jitsu, there's only one reason you take your elbows off the mat from turtle position, that's to stand up. So, now it's, it's clear at this point what his actual strategy is. It's to get up, force a standing confrontation, win a take-down battle, and beat Gordon by points. So, he did have a strategy. Now, our counter-strategy is always based around the power half nelson. This is a common move in the sport of wrestling, and it's a great way to break people down as they try to stand up.

   19. LFLex Fridman57:18

       (laughs)

   20. JDJohn Danaher57:18

       Gordon-

   21. LFLex Fridman57:18

       It looked so heavy.

   22. JDJohn Danaher57:19

       Yeah. I think, I mean, Gordon is a, a master of it and breaks his man down.

   23. LFLex Fridman57:22

       So, there's a power half nelson that Gordon has on him as the, as the el-elbows are off the ground, the knees are off the ground, and he's trying to just-

   24. JDJohn Danaher57:29

       He's going to return his opponent to the mat. And as you can see, he's successful in doing so. And now it's clear what the man's strategy is, so I'm calling to Gordon to break him down to a hip. You put a man on a hip, he can't stand up. Gordon successfully does it, traps the shoulder using that one-on-one grip with his right hand, puts him down to a shoulder and a hip. That means standing up is no longer an option for his opponent. Now Gordon goes in. He's already scoring because of the, uh, the turtle position that he's in. His shoulders ... His opponent stays down on his shoulder. Now Gordon's responsibility is to start looking for the stranglehold. His opponent has basic defensive structure, he's disciplined with his chin, keeps the chin down. But Gordon is a master of tying up defensive arms and penetrating under the chin to get to a strangle. You'll see that shortly. There's the trapping of the arm. Notice that no advanced, uh, uh, grips were required. It was just a spontaneous trap. There's the penetration of the neck.

   25. LFLex Fridman58:23

       So, the arm was trapped with the leg?

   26. JDJohn Danaher58:25

       Yeah. So, now he's-

   27. LFLex Fridman58:26

       Uh,

   28. NANarrator58:26

       versus one.

   29. JDJohn Danaher58:26

       ... he's only got one defensive arm, and he's just taking that away with his, uh, left hand and he gets a one-handed strangle for the finish.

   30. LFLex Fridman58:35

       And it looks like not much energy was expended during that process.

Episode duration: 4:48:38