John Danaher: The Path to Mastery in Jiu Jitsu, Grappling, Judo, and MMA | Lex Fridman Podcast #182

1. 0:00 – 1:24

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with John Danaher, widely acknowledged as one of the greatest coaches and minds in the martial arts world, having coached many champions in jujitsu, submission grappling, and MMA, including Gordon Ryan, Garry Tonon, Nick Rodriguez, Craig Jones, Nikki Ryan, Chris Weidman, and Georges St-Pierre. Quick mention of our sponsors: Onnit, SimpliSafe, Indeed, and Linode. Check them out in the description to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that John is a scholar of not just jujitsu, but judo, wrestling, Muay Thai, boxing, MMA, and outside of that, topics of history, psychology, philosophy, and even artificial intelligence, as you will hear in this conversation. After this chat, I started (laughs) to entertain the possibility of returning back to competition as a black belt, maybe even training with John and his team for a few weeks leading up to the competition. For a recreational practitioner, such as myself, the value of training and competing in jujitsu is that it is one of the best ways to get humbled. To me, keeping the ego in check is essential for a productive and happy life. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast, and here is my conversation with John Danaher.

2. 1:24 – 11:40

   Fear of death

   1. LFLex Fridman1:24

      Are you afraid of death? Let's start with an easy question. (laughs)

   2. JDJohn Danaher1:29

      (laughs) There's no warmup? That's it? We're, we're straight in?

   3. LFLex Fridman1:31

      No warmup.

   4. JDJohn Danaher1:31

      No jumping jacks?

   5. LFLex Fridman1:34

      (laughs)

   6. JDJohn Danaher1:34

      Let's, uh, let's break that down into two questions. Um, I'm a human being. And like any human being, I'm biologically programmed to be terrified of death. Every physical element in our bodies is designed to keep us away from death. Um, I'm no different from anyone else in that regard. If you throw me from the top of the Empire State Building, I'm gonna scream all the way down to the concrete. Um, if you wave a loaded firearm in my face, I'm gonna flinch away in horror the same way anyone else would. Um, so in that f- first sense of, are you afraid of death, uh, my, my body is terrified of injury leading to death, the same way any, any other human being would.

   7. LFLex Fridman2:21

      So, when death is imminent, there's a terror that becomes-

   8. JDJohn Danaher2:24

      Yeah, I, I go through-

   9. LFLex Fridman2:25

      ... that strong enough, right?

   10. JDJohn Danaher2:25

       ... the same adrenaline dumps that you would go through.

   11. LFLex Fridman2:27

       Yeah.

   12. JDJohn Danaher2:27

       Um, uh, but on the other hand, you're also asking a much deeper question, which is presumably, are you afraid of non-existence-

   13. LFLex Fridman2:35

       Yeah.

   14. JDJohn Danaher2:35

       ... what comes after your physical death? And that's the more interesting question. Um, no. Uh, I should start right fr- uh, by, by, by saying fr- from the start, I, I'm a materialist. I, I don't believe that we have an immortal soul. I don't believe there's a life after our physical death. Um, in this sense, from someone who starts from that point of view, you have to understand that everyone has two deaths. We always talk about our death as though there was only one, but we all have two deaths. There was a time before you were born when you were dead.... You weren't afraid of that period of non-existence. You don't even think about it. So, why would you be afraid of your second period of non-existence? You came from non-existence, you're gonna go back into it. You weren't afraid of the first. Why are you somehow afraid of the second? So, it doesn't really make sense to me as to why people would be afraid of, of non-existence. You dealt with it fine the first time. Um, deal with it the second time.

   15. LFLex Fridman3:44

       But your mind didn't exist for the first death.

   16. JDJohn Danaher3:47

       And it won't exist after you die either.

   17. LFLex Fridman3:50

       But it does exist now enough to comprehend that there's this thing that you know nothing about that's coming which is non-existent.

   18. JDJohn Danaher3:58

       Actually, you do know about it because you know what it was like before you were born. There was just nothing.

   19. LFLex Fridman4:02

       But you-

   20. JDJohn Danaher4:03

       Every, every, every time you go to sleep at night, you get a sneak preview of death. It's just this kind of nothing happens. You wake up in the morning, you're ali- you're alive again.

   21. LFLex Fridman4:13

       But it's not about the sleeping, it's about the falling asleep. And every night when you fall asleep, you assume you're going to wake up. Here, you know you're not waking up. And the knowledge of that...

   22. JDJohn Danaher4:26

       But there's a whole step from that to the idea of fearing it. I'm fully aware that there's gonna be a time I don't wake up. But are you gonna be afraid of it? Is there some mortal terror you have of this? No, you didn't have it before. You don't have it when you sleep. Um, going from the fact that you know you won't wake up to terror is two different things. That's an extra step and at that point, you're, you're making a choice at that, uh, at that point.

   23. LFLex Fridman4:50

       What about what some people in our, in this context, we might call, like, the third death, which is when, um, everybody forgets, the entirety of consciousness in the universe forgets that you've ever existed, that John Danaher ever existed. So...

   24. JDJohn Danaher5:08

       It's almost like a cosmic death. It's like everything goes, yeah.

   25. LFLex Fridman5:12

       Not, not just... I, I would say it's acknowledge, the history books-

   26. JDJohn Danaher5:16

       Mm-hmm.

   27. LFLex Fridman5:16

       ... forget about who you are because the history books-

   28. JDJohn Danaher5:18

       Eh, this is inevitable, by the way. We're all very, very small players in a very big game. And inevitably, we're all going to go at some point.

   29. LFLex Fridman5:28

       Yeah, but doesn't... So you're-

   30. JDJohn Danaher5:31

       It's, it's disappointing, of course.
3. 11:40 – 17:19

   The path to greatness

   1. LFLex Fridman11:42

      So given this short life, we could think about jujitsu, we can think about any kind of pursuit. What do you think makes a great life? Is it the highest peak of achievement? You know, you think about like an Olympic gold medal.

   2. JDJohn Danaher12:02

      Hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman12:03

      The highest level of performance. Or is it...... the longevity of performance, of doing many amazing things and doing it for a long time. I think the latter is kind of what we talk about in at least American society, you know, we want people to be healthy, balanced, perform well for a long time. And then there's maybe like the gladiator (laughs) ethic, which is the highest peak, is what defines a, a good life.

   4. JDJohn Danaher12:34

      Y- you asked an initial question, which, w- what makes a great life?

   5. LFLex Fridman12:37

      Yes.

   6. JDJohn Danaher12:37

      But then pointed towards two options, one of longevity versus-

   7. LFLex Fridman12:42

      Are there other options? (laughs)

   8. JDJohn Danaher12:42

      ... degree of difficulty. There's, there's gotta be a lot more than that, surely. Um, uh, I mean, think about, um... First of all, we, we have to understand from the start that there's never gonna be an agreed upon set of criteria for this is a great life from our perspective. Uh, if you look from (clears throat) the perspective of, say, Machiavelli, then Stalin lived a great life.

   9. LFLex Fridman13:04

      (laughs)

   10. JDJohn Danaher13:04

       Uh, he was highly successful at what he did. He'd started from nothing, so the degree of difficulty in what he did was extraordinarily high. He had massive impact upon world history. He oversaw the defeat of almost all of his major enemies. He lived to old age and died of natural causes. So, from Machiavelli's point of view, he had a great life. If you ask a Ukrainian farmer in the 1930s whether he lived a great life, you'd get a very different answer. Um, so everything's gonna come from what perspective you, you, you begin with this... You're going to look out at the world with a given point of view and you're gonna make your judgments, was this a great life or was this a, a terrible life? Um, going back to your point, you were actually, I think, focusing the question on, on more in terms of, uh, e- great single performances versus longevity of performances.

   11. LFLex Fridman13:57

       Yes.

   12. JDJohn Danaher13:57

       Um, presumably the- (clears throat) this isn't really a question about, uh, what makes a great life then, because there's so much more than that to a great life.

   13. LFLex Fridman14:07

       I don't know. I'm gonna push back on that. So, I think the parallels are very much closer than you're making them seem. I think it's... Let's compare Stalin. Stalin is an example of somebody who held power, considered by many to be one of the most powerful men ever. He held power for 30 years. So, that's when I'm referring to longevity, and then there's a few people, I have to... I wish my knowledge of history was better, but people who fought a few great battles and they did not maintain power, but they were-

   14. JDJohn Danaher14:37

       Let's, let's contrast, say, for example, Alexander the Great-

   15. LFLex Fridman14:40

       Yes.

   16. JDJohn Danaher14:40

       ... who died at 33, um, from probably unnatural causes, um, uh, had around four to five truly defining battles in his life, which, uh, responsible for the, for the lion's share of, of, of his achievements, and burned very bright, but didn't burn long.

   17. LFLex Fridman15:04

       Yes.

   18. JDJohn Danaher15:04

       Um, Stalin, on the other hand, started from nothing and quietly, methodically worked his way through the revolutionary phase and, uh, gained increasing amounts of power, and as he said, um, went all the way to the end of a, uh, o- of his career. Um, yeah, there's, there's definitely something to be said for, for longevity. Um, but as to which one is greater than the other, you can't give a, a d- a definition or, um, a, a set of criteria which will definitively say, "This is better than that." I mean-

   19. LFLex Fridman15:39

       But when you look-

   20. JDJohn Danaher15:40

       ... ultimately we look at Alexander as great but in a different way, and we look at Stalin... I don't, I don't think many people would say Stalin was a great person, but from the Machiavellian point of view, uh, you- you would say he was, uh, great also.

   21. LFLex Fridman15:53

       But when you think about beautiful creations done by human beings-

   22. JDJohn Danaher15:58

       Mm-hmm.

   23. LFLex Fridman15:58

       ... in the space of, say, martial arts, in the space of sport, what inspires you? The peak of performance?

   24. JDJohn Danaher16:07

       I, I, I see where you're coming from, like, it's, it's a great question. Um, for me, it always comes down to degree of difficulty. But things are difficult in different ways, okay? Um, a single flawless performance in youth is still a... It wins a gold medal. Say, for example, um, uh, Nadia Comaneci won the Olympic gold medal in gymnastics, the first person ever to get a perfect score. Um, if she had disappeared after that, we would still remember that as a-

   25. LFLex Fridman16:37

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JDJohn Danaher16:38

       ... an incredible moment, and the degree of difficulty to, to get a perfect score in, in Olympic gymnastics is just off the charts. Um, and contrast that with someone who went to four Olympics and got four silver medals, I mean, they're both incredible achievements, they're just different. Uh, the- the attributes that lead to longevity, um, typically tend to conflict with the attributes that bring a powerful single performance. One is all about focus on a par- uh, on a particular event, the other is, uh, on, uh, spreading your resources over time. Both, uh, present tremendous difficulties. Um, there's no need to say one is better than the

4. 17:19 – 21:29

   Judo

   1. JDJohn Danaher17:19

      other.

   2. LFLex Fridman17:19

      There's also just, for me personally, the stories of the... of somebody who truly struggled are, are the most powerful.

   3. JDJohn Danaher17:28

      Mm-hmm.

   4. LFLex Fridman17:29

      I know a bunch of people don't necessarily agree 'cause you said perfection. Perfection is kind of the antithesis of struggle, but I look at somebody... Okay, in my own life, somebody I... I'm a fan... Oh, I'm a fan of every... I'm a huge fan of yours, I'm trying not to be nervous here, but, uh, somebody I'm a fan of in the judo world is Travis Stevens.

   5. JDJohn Danaher17:48

      Mm-hmm. He's a re- remarkable fellow, by the way.

   6. LFLex Fridman17:51

      A remarkable human being. Insane in the best kinds of ways. I think I started judo, I s- I really started martial arts... I wrestled if you consider those martial arts, that's my... that's been in my blood, and I'm Russian, so... But beyond that, you know, the- the whole pajama thing we wear, the gi, I started by watching Travis in 2008 Olympics, I think.

   7. JDJohn Danaher18:12

      Was that accidental?... did you know Travis prior to watching him?

   8. LFLex Fridman18:16

      No, no, no. I just tuned in-

   9. JDJohn Danaher18:17

      Now, that's an, that's an unusual choice. You, it was just random? You just tuned in, and you saw Travis Stevens?

   10. LFLex Fridman18:22

       I tuned into the Olympics, and I was wondering what judo is. And then, I s- I started watch... We're, we're all proud of our countries and so on, so I started watching-

   11. JDJohn Danaher18:33

       Of course.

   12. LFLex Fridman18:33

       He was, I think, the only American in the Olympics for judo. Uh, maybe the, so the, Kayla Harrison was 2012, uh, and Ronda was there too, so I watched Ronda and Travis. But, obviously, sort of (laughs) , I, I was, I was focused on somebody who also weighed the same as I did, so there was a kinda, uh, I think, 8-, 81, uh, kilograms. So, there's a connection, but also there's an intensity to him. Like, he would get like angry at his own failures, and he would just refuse to quit. It's that kind of Dan Gable mentality. I just, that, that was inspiring to me, that he's the underdog. And the way people talk about him, the commentators, that it was an unlikely person to do well, right? And I, they, the F you attitude behind that, saying, "No, I'm gonna still win gold." Obviously, he didn't do well in 2008, but that was, the, that was somehow inspiring. And, and, I, I just remember he pulled me in, but then I started to see this sport, I guess you can call it, of effortlessly dominating your opponent in like throwing. 'Cause I, in, to me, wrestling was like a grind. You kind of control. You slowly just break your opponent. The idea that you could, with like a foot sweep, was fascinating to me. That, wi- just because of timing, you can take these like monsters, giant, giant people, like incredible athletes, and just smash them, with... It, it just doesn't, there was no struggle to it. It was always like a look of surprise. Judo, dominance in judo, has a look of, like the other person is like, "Wha- what just happened?"

   13. JDJohn Danaher20:26

       Yes.

   14. LFLex Fridman20:27

       This is very different from wrestling.

   15. JDJohn Danaher20:28

       It's, it's built into the, the rule structure too, the whole idea of an ippon, of a, of a match being over in an instant.

   16. LFLex Fridman20:34

       Yeah.

   17. JDJohn Danaher20:34

       And, um, that creates a, a thrilling spectator sport, because it, you can, uh, as you say, with ashi whys, or the foot sweeps, um, uh, you can take someone out who's heavily favored, and if you're not... Judo is the most unforgiving of all the grappling sports. You can, if you have a lapse of concentration for half a second, it's done. It's over. Um, if those guys get a grip on each other, uh, any one of them can throw the other. The, the, the idea, uh, you know, uh, when you see someone like, um, Nomura, who won three Olympic gold medals, to, to win across three Olympics, and that's an incredible achievement, given how many ways there are to lose in the standing position in judo and how unforgiving it is as a sport. It shows an incredible level of dominance.

   18. LFLex Fridman21:28

       And,

5. 21:29 – 33:43

   Seoi nage judo throw

   1. LFLex Fridman21:29

      I think when I was, I was also introduced at that time to the idea, just like in judo, I think in jujitsu is the same, a lot of sports is probably the same, is there's ways to win that include kind of, um, if I were to use a bad term, stalling, which is like use strategy to slow down, to destroy all the weapons your opponent has and just to wait it out, to sort of break your opponent by, yeah, shutting down all their weapons, but not using any of your own.

   2. JDJohn Danaher22:01

      Yes.

   3. LFLex Fridman22:02

      And now, Travis was always going for... He's of, of course, really good at gripping and can do that whole game, but he was going for the big throws, and he was almost getting frustrated, uh, by a lot of the opponents. I remember, uh, uh, Ole Bischoft, I think?

   4. JDJohn Danaher22:21

      Yes.

   5. LFLex Fridman22:22

      Uh, it's-

   6. JDJohn Danaher22:23

      From Germany.

   7. LFLex Fridman22:23

      From Germany.

   8. JDJohn Danaher22:24

      Very talented.

   9. LFLex Fridman22:25

      Very incredible. I know he's very good at doing big throws and he's an incredible judoka, but he was also incredible at just frustrating his opponents with like gripping and strategy and so on. And I just remember feeling the pain of this person, like Travis, who went through just, he broke like every part of his body. He went through so many injuries. Just this person who dedicated his entire life to this moment in 2008 and then 2012 and, and 2016, just ev- gave everything. You could see it in his face, uh, that, you know, it's, his weapons are being shut down, and he's still pushing forward. He's still, that both the frustration and the power. I mean, the, the kind of throw he does is the- ... His, his main one, I think, is the standing, it's called seoinage.

   10. JDJohn Danaher23:16

       Ippon seoinage.

   11. LFLex Fridman23:17

       Ippon seoinage. But that was, that was the other thing is like the techniques he used was the- these big throws that there's something to me about the seoinage. I fell in love with that throw. Uh, that's my, become my main throw, standing seoinage. That is like-

   12. JDJohn Danaher23:35

       Why do, why do you favor the standing variation? 'Cause of the amplitude? You get a-

   13. LFLex Fridman23:40

       Yeah.

   14. JDJohn Danaher23:40

       ... more powerful, uh-

   15. LFLex Fridman23:42

       Yeah.

   16. JDJohn Danaher23:42

       ... windup.

   17. LFLex Fridman23:42

       Power. It's like-

   18. JDJohn Danaher23:44

       Are you a fan of Koga?

   19. LFLex Fridman23:45

       Yes. That's, so that's when I, Travis, Ko- so Koga and Travis opened up my, uh, if I-

   20. JDJohn Danaher23:52

       'Cause Travis uses the same gripping patterns for seoinage as Koga does.

   21. LFLex Fridman23:55

       All the same, and the way he uses his hips and turns. And I remember like going to my judo club and other judo clubs and ask, and they were all saying, "This is the wrong way to do it. Oh, what the way Travis does is the wrong way to do it." And I remember like-

   22. JDJohn Danaher24:09

       I've always been amazed by this, by the way. I, I don't mean to cut you off, but (laughs) I, I could literally...... fill 20 hours of reproductions of people who will tell me that either my students or other great world champions, um, are, are doing things wrong.

   23. LFLex Fridman24:30

       Yeah.

   24. JDJohn Danaher24:30

       And I'm, I'm looking at them-

   25. LFLex Fridman24:33

       (laughs) .

   26. JDJohn Danaher24:34

       ... and I'm like, "Who would I rather trust here in, in their judgment, Koga, who was one of the greatest throwers of all time, or you?"

   27. LFLex Fridman24:46

       (laughs)

   28. JDJohn Danaher24:47

       A recreational guy who couldn't throw my grandmother.

   29. LFLex Fridman24:51

       Yes (laughs) . Yeah.

   30. JDJohn Danaher24:53

       Um, uh, I'm supposed to take your word over his?
6. 33:43 – 39:56

   Fundamentals of jiu jitsu

   1. LFLex Fridman33:43

      Can you explain the fundamentals of jujitsu?

   2. JDJohn Danaher33:46

      Yes. If I couldn't, I wouldn't be much of a coach.

   3. LFLex Fridman33:48

      (laughs)

   4. JDJohn Danaher33:49

      Um, jujitsu is an art and science which looks to use a combination of tactical and mechanical advantage to focus a very high percentage of my strength against a very low percentage of my opponent's strength at a critical point on their body such that if I were to exert my strength upon that critical point, they could no longer continue to fight.

   5. LFLex Fridman34:22

      Well, that's about weapons and defenses, but then is there something more to be said about the set of tools that are, that we're talking about here?

   6. JDJohn Danaher34:34

      That's where the art comes in because ultimately, you have a set of choices and those choices that you make will be an act of self-expression on your part. Some will prefer this, some will prefer that. That's where you come in as an individual.

   7. LFLex Fridman34:48

      That's an overall definition of jujitsu, of being a set of choices that where you're using the things you're powerful in versus the things your opponent is weak in.

   8. JDJohn Danaher35:04

      No. I was only talking about percentages of body strength. If I have, for example, let's say, um, we have two athletes, Athlete A and Athlete B. Athlete A has 100 units of strength however we define that overall. Athlete B has 50, okay? So ostensibly, Athlete A is twice as strong as Athlete B, but Athlete B can maneuver his body into a set of positions focused around a critical point of his opponent's body where he can apply 40 units of strength out of his total of 50. His opponent can only defend with 20 units of strength out of his total of 100. You have now completely reversed the strength discrepancy. Originally, Athlete A was twice as strong as B, now on that one localized point, the knee, the elbow, the neck, B is now twice as strong as A. Under those circumstances, B should win.

   9. LFLex Fridman36:04

      I guess what I'm trying to get at... By the way, that's really beautifully said, is what you just said could be applied to other games, other battles. It could be applied to the game of chess. Uh, it could be applied to war.

   10. JDJohn Danaher36:20

       Uh, most obviously in war. I think about, um, for example, um, the American strategic bombing campaign in World War II. Uh-The Eighth Army Air Force was tasked with the idea of destroying German industry. Did they attack all of German industry? Of course not, that would be stupid. They attacked the ball bearing industry. Why? Because almost all of modern machines require ball bearings in order to operate. In order for the mechanical interfaces of machines to operate, you have to reduce friction, it's done through ball bearings. If you knocked out one tiny component of German industry, the ball bearing industry, the rest of it couldn't operate. So too with the human body, I don't have to fight your whole body, I just have to fight your left knee. If I can break your left knee, the rest of your body is irrelevant to me.

   11. LFLex Fridman37:19

       But then isn't the art of Jujitsu discovering the- the left knee, the discovering the weak points?

   12. JDJohn Danaher37:30

       Yeah. A huge part of Jujitsu is understanding the weak, strengths and weaknesses of the human body. There's parts of the human body that are shockingly robust, and there are other parts that are shockingly vulnerable. The major joints, and of course the most vulnerable of all, the unprotected neck.

   13. LFLex Fridman37:46

       So if we take the, something I'm not familiar with but I was incredibly impressed by is the body lock that I saw, um-

   14. JDJohn Danaher37:56

       Nick Rodriguez?

   15. LFLex Fridman37:57

       ... Nick Rodriguez use, uh, last time a- a few weeks ago.

   16. JDJohn Danaher38:00

       Yes.

   17. LFLex Fridman38:01

       But then I also got to hang out with Craig Jones, who showed that-

   18. JDJohn Danaher38:04

       Also has a very good body lock.

   19. LFLex Fridman38:06

       So that, uh, that was, uh, I don't know if this body lock applies to all positions, but I was seeing it from when Craig is, uh, on top, uh, of your opponent and trying to pass the gu- or passing the guard, use the body lock as a controlling position. The- the principle behind it is that it shuts down, as you've spoken about, it shuts down the weapons of a very strong opponent.

   20. JDJohn Danaher38:36

       That's absolutely correct. In- in- in the case of, um, guard position, what makes guard position dangerous, what makes someone a powerful guard player is the movement of their hips forward and backward and side to side. Body locking is designed to shut down that movement and does a- a very fine job of it. You'll see all of my students excel at it. Gordon Ryan is probably the single best body lock guard passer I've ever seen. Nicky Ryan is outstanding with it. Nick Rodriguez is very good. Craig Jones is outstanding. All of my students use this for a very simple reason. Understand what is the central problem of shutting down a guard, dangerous guard player, it's his hips, that's what makes him a dangerous leg locker. You go up against a dangerous leg locker, body lock guard pass, single best way to shut down most of his entries. Um, we are all strong in leg locks, so in our gym you gotta control the hips as soon as possible, otherwise it's gonna be a very difficult thing to avoid leg entanglements as you go to pass. And, uh, uh, across the board my students excel in- in, uh, in body lock guard passing. They understand what's the most dangerous feature their opponent has, the lateral movement of their hips, what's the single best way to stop that? Body lock and then work

7. 39:56 – 47:45

   Developing new techniques

   1. JDJohn Danaher39:56

      from there.

   2. LFLex Fridman39:56

      So if this asymmetry of power is fundamental to Jujitsu, how do you discover that? How do you, how did you discover the body lock? That as a, as one of many methodologies of achieving this asymmetry?

   3. JDJohn Danaher40:10

      Um, it would be an overstatement to say we discovered the body lock.

   4. LFLex Fridman40:14

      Right.

   5. JDJohn Danaher40:14

      Body lock passing has been around longer than we've been around. Um, but what I would say is that in a room full of dangerous leg lockers, you've gotta have a way to shut down the hips. And so once we started using body locks, we saw that was one excellent way to get around that problem. Um, as with all development, it comes from trial and error. You will often see people teach the technique to a certain level, and you see the teaching, you're like, "There's a lot of inadequacies there, and that doesn't cover a lot of the problems that we're encountering." And so trial and error is the single most important part of the development.

   6. LFLex Fridman40:53

      Trial and error in, um-

   7. JDJohn Danaher40:56

      In the training room amongst ourselves.

   8. LFLex Fridman40:58

      In- in hard training or-

   9. JDJohn Danaher41:01

      No, it never begins with hard training. Well, e- everything, techniques are born the same way we're born, weak and in need of nutrition.

   10. LFLex Fridman41:11

       (laughs) Uh, I like this.

   11. JDJohn Danaher41:14

       You have to build them up organically like children.

   12. LFLex Fridman41:16

       Yeah.

   13. JDJohn Danaher41:16

       And you start with minimal resistance and you make progress over time. When you first go to the gym, do you put 500 pounds on the bench press and try to bench press it? No, you'll be killed.

   14. LFLex Fridman41:25

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JDJohn Danaher41:26

       You start off with the bar, you build over time, and then one day, five years from now, perhaps you really are lifting 500 pounds. But only a fool would attempt that on their first attempt.

   16. LFLex Fridman41:38

       And they're born like children in your mind first? Like, uh, there's a spark of an idea? I wonder-

   17. JDJohn Danaher41:44

       Yes, there's always a spark. It's like scientific development on a subject matter which is intrinsically simpler, okay? Uh, the- the- the, uh, there's a sense in which naive and overly simplistic assessments of scientific method may not work well at advanced levels of science, but they work damn well in the training room with Jujitsu where- where the- the- the subject matter is inherently simpler than it is in research science. And, um, uh-

   18. LFLex Fridman42:12

       Well-

   19. JDJohn Danaher42:12

       ... as a result, uh, there'll be a spark. You'll see something like, "Hmm, there's possibilities there. Okay, let's- let's puzzle this out, let's work with this." And, uh, you run into a lot of failures. There's, you know, you- you suddenly go, "Oh, man, if I put my hip this way, this works really well." Then suddenly you try and spur and you get caught in a- in a simple omoplata and you go, "Okay, that didn't work as well as I thought." And then you look to rectify things if...... things go in promising research directions, you keep them.

   20. LFLex Fridman42:38

       (laughs)

   21. JDJohn Danaher42:38

       If not, you discard them.

   22. LFLex Fridman42:41

       Well, it's funny you say science, uh, it feels like more like art. There's somebody I really admire that talks about this kind of ideas, Jony Ive from Apple. He's the lead designer, he recently left, but he was the designer behind most of the products we know and love from Apple. And he-

   23. JDJohn Danaher42:57

       When you say designer, be more precise, what exactly was he- was he working on in Apple?

   24. LFLex Fridman43:03

       The iPhone.

   25. JDJohn Danaher43:05

       Which- which parts of the iPhone did he work on?

   26. LFLex Fridman43:07

       Uh, like, the entirety of it. (laughs)

   27. JDJohn Danaher43:09

       Was he a leader of a research team, or was he the person personally responsible for the development?

   28. LFLex Fridman43:15

       He's kind of, I would say, very similar to your position. Uh, y- he wasn't necessarily the last, the person executing the final, the manufacture, right?

   29. JDJohn Danaher43:27

       Yeah, of course.

   30. LFLex Fridman43:28

       But there's the, uh, he's somebody that's very hands-on, and it's- it's like, okay, so he worked obviously extremely closely with Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs has this idea, "We should have a computer that's as thin as a sheet of paper," and then you start to play with ideas of, like, what does that actually look like? The reason I bring it up is because he talked about he had these ideas that he would not tell Steve because he- he talked about, in the same exact language as y- you're saying, is that there's like- like a little baby, that it's very fragile. It- it needs time to grow.
8. 47:45 – 57:45

   Value of training with lower belts

   1. JDJohn Danaher47:45

      you know?

   2. LFLex Fridman47:46

      Is this where your idea of, uh, training with lower belts-

   3. JDJohn Danaher47:50

      Yes.

   4. LFLex Fridman47:50

      ... quite a bit comes from?

   5. JDJohn Danaher47:52

      Yeah, yeah.

   6. LFLex Fridman47:52

      I've actually, just as a side comment, and maybe you can elaborate, I, uh, the- the place, the gym, uh, Balance Studios with, uh, Phil and Rick Magleries (ph) where I got my black belt, where I grew up as a jujitsu person in Philadelphia, they have a huge number of black belts, but they have a huge number of all other ranks. And the way they picked sparring partners, people you train with, is very ad hoc, it's very loose-

   7. JDJohn Danaher48:18

      Mm-hmm.

   8. LFLex Fridman48:19

      ... it's very, one of those places, one of those gyms where you can just kinda, you can train for like three, four hours, and you-

   9. JDJohn Danaher48:26

      That's great.

   10. LFLex Fridman48:26

       ... you could take a break, or you could jump back in.

   11. JDJohn Danaher48:29

       Yeah, yeah, very informal, yeah.

   12. LFLex Fridman48:30

       And you can go to war with the black belts, but then you can also play around with the purple and the blue belts, and so on.

   13. JDJohn Danaher48:36

       Excellent.

   14. LFLex Fridman48:37

       And that was really beneficial for growth, and you, you know, you can pick-... who- which- 'cause everybody has a style and you could pick which style you really wanna work on, right? And then I came to, um, uh, Boston, Broadway Jujitsu, uh, with, uh, John Clark, who I love, he's a good friend. But, you know, the, it's a little bit more formal and I found myself, it was a very interesting journey, I f- I would be training with black belts the whole time and, uh, it was a very different experience. I found myself exploring much less. I found myself, um, learning much less. I mean, part of that is a mi- on me, but part of it was also realizing that, uh, wow, there's a value to training with people that are much worse than you (laughs) .

   15. JDJohn Danaher49:25

       Yes.

   16. LFLex Fridman49:26

       Uh, is there, is there a philosophy you could speak to on that?

   17. JDJohn Danaher49:28

       Yeah, um, you probably know it already. Um, you know from your studies in artificial intelligence that all human beings are naturally risk-averse. This is a, a bias which is deeply seeded in, i- in all of us. Um, I'm sure you're, you're well-read on people like Dvorsky and et cetera, who talk about this all the time. Um, for your viewers, uh, there are numerous psychological experiments that have shown that most people, to the point of irrationality, fear loss more than they are excited at the prospect of an equivalent gain. So, for example, if you have $100 in your wallet, you're more worried about the idea of losing the $100 that you have now than you would be excited by the prospect of gaining $100 that I could potentially offer you. Um, this comes out whenever you get black belt versus black belt confrontations, or any kind of similar, um, skill level. Whenever you get similar skill levels, the chances of defeat get very, very high. Interestingly, if you're a white belt and you're going against a black belt, you'll take risks. Why? 'Cause there's no shame in losing to a black belt when you're a white belt, so you'll, you'll play more lightheartedly and you'll, you'll have a more fun role. But when you have very similar skill levels, you're gonna come back to what? The techniques that are most likely to get you a win. That number of techniques is usually pretty small, and if you're always battling with the same tough opponents every day, where if you make even a single error it will cost you that match in sparring, and you don't like losing, you're going to stay with a very small set of moves. You might get slightly better at their execution over time, but you as an individual will not grow. Growth, as it does in organic life forms, comes from small beginnings and builds over time. You can't take an untested, untried move and get on a world champion black belt. It's gonna get crushed. It's just not ready for that. It's like a, a lion cub being thrown out into the Serengeti plains. The lion cub is just too small and too ineffective. It's a lion, but it's a cub, and it's not until it grows into maturity that it can be a lion that can dominate the Serengeti plains.

   18. LFLex Fridman52:01

       Hmm.

   19. JDJohn Danaher52:01

       Um, that's why I always encourage my students to play with a variety of belt types. Um, and spend the majority of their time with lesser belts for development purposes. When you're getting closer to a competition, you obviously wanna change that. You wanna be getting more a competitive sense of, of, of hard work. But, uh, you must learn to divide up your training cycles into, uh, non-competition cycles (sound of bell ringing) where you're, uh, presumably working with people who are slightly lower in level than yourself, and in some cases, quite a bit lower than yourself, and then, um, competition cycles where you're working with people much closer to your own skill level.

   20. LFLex Fridman52:46

       Is there something to be said about the, the flip side of that, which is, um, when you're training with people at the same skill level, being okay losing to them?

   21. JDJohn Danaher52:57

       Yes. You have to see training for what it is. Training is about skill development, not about winning or losing. You've gotto- you've gotta understand that you don't need to win every battle. You only need to win the battles that count.

   22. LFLex Fridman53:13

       (laughs)

   23. JDJohn Danaher53:13

       And the, th- the battles that count are in the world championship finals, okay? That, that's the one that counts. Think about that win, okay? That's the one you're gonna be remembered for. You're not gonna be remembered for the battle you lost on Tuesday afternoon at 3:00 PM in some nameless gym with some guy that no one cares about. No one's gonna remember that. You're gonna be remembered for your peak performances, not your everyday performances. Focus your everyday performances on skill development, so that your peak performances, you can focus on winning.

   24. LFLex Fridman53:42

       You know, I just... (sighs) this is not a therapy session, but if I could just speak... (laughs)

   25. JDJohn Danaher53:48

       Every session's a therapy session. (laughs)

   26. LFLex Fridman53:52

       There is still an ape thing in there.

   27. JDJohn Danaher53:56

       Of course. You think I don't feel it?

   28. LFLex Fridman53:59

       (sighs)

   29. JDJohn Danaher53:59

       You think e- everyone in the room doesn't feel it?

   30. LFLex Fridman54:02

       Because, for example, you haven't never seen me roll. Uh, you know, when there's people s- you know, I- I've seen the look in people's eyes when they see me train and they, I could see, maybe it's me projecting, but they think, "I thought you were supposed to be good."
9. 57:45 – 1:04:40

   Escaping bad positions

   1. LFLex Fridman57:45

      you've talked about it which is really interesting framing is, uh, escaping bad positions is one of the best ways if not the best way to demonstrate dominance psychologically over your opponent that anything they throw at you, like, their weapons are useless against you.

   2. JDJohn Danaher58:08

      Yes. Um, there's a little bit of Lex Friedman kicking through in this question.

   3. LFLex Fridman58:11

      I apologize.

   4. JDJohn Danaher58:11

      Your, your obsession with dominance is, um, uh...

   5. LFLex Fridman58:14

      (laughs)

   6. JDJohn Danaher58:15

      It's skewing your point of view. (laughs)

   7. LFLex Fridman58:16

      It's a therapy session. It's a therapy session. I'm coming from a wrestling perspective. I think it's not just Lex Friedman. I think it's Dan Gable. I think it's dominant. The Garry Tonon ethic, it just goes against everything wrestling is about. You never put yourself-

   8. JDJohn Danaher58:33

      Yes.

   9. LFLex Fridman58:33

      ... in a bad position and the fact... This, it's, uh, philosophically, I don't know what to do with it. It's a total reframing of showing dominance by escaping any bad position.

   10. JDJohn Danaher58:49

       Yeah. Let's talk about the idea of w- what, what is the value of escapes? Why do I put this in as, as the first skill that every jiu-jitsu student must master? Um, believe it or not, uh, when I talked about how it pertains to dominance, that's its smallest value. Its greatest value has nothing to do with dominance. It has to do with confidence. You can train someone and teach them technique until you're blue in the face, but at some point the athlete in question has to go out there on stage and pull the trigger when the time is right. What's gonna give you that ability to go from the physical skills that you've learned to execution under pressure is confidence. I always talk about skill development, and yes, skill development is the absolute bedrock of my training programs, but you can't finish at that level. There has to be something more than that and you have to go from the physical element of skill into the psychological element of confidence. I can teach you an armbar all day. You can get to a point where you can flawlessly execute armbars in drilling and even in a certain level of competition, but if you believe that in attempting an armbar on a dangerous opponent with good guard passing skills, say the armbar is being performed from guard position, that if the armbar fails and your opponent uses that-... failure to set up a strong pass and get into a side pin, possibly into the mount, and you don't have the ability to get out of that side pin or mount, you won't pull the trigger on the armbar. And so even though you had all the requisite physical skills to perform the technique, when push came to shove and the critical moment came, you backed down. You didn't pull the trigger. Building that confidence is the key to championship performance, and the single best way to do it is to take away the innate fear that we all have of bad outcomes that makes us naturally risk-averse. When you don't believe you can be pinned, when you don't believe your guard can be passed, you'll take risks 'cause there's no downside to your actions. An unpinnable person and an unpassable person doesn't have much to fear in a Jiu-Jitsu match. You can come out and fire with all guns blazing because then you know at the end of the day, no one's gonna hold you down, no one's gonna pass your guard. That's your first two goals in Jiu-Jitsu. They're the most boring goals. They're not exciting to learn. No one wants to come in and their first time get told, "Okay, you're gonna practice escapes for the next year of your life, okay?" It's like, "Oh, you kidding me?" But that's what you gotta have. That's your first skill, and that's what I push upon all of my students. You'll see almost all of them are very, very strong in escape skills. They know that if things go wrong, they can always get out, they can always live to fight another day, and that is what gives them the ability to attack without fear.

   11. LFLex Fridman1:02:31

       I think that is so profound and so rare. I- it's so rare to hear this. I think it's because it's the most painful thing to do.

   12. JDJohn Danaher1:02:42

       Always ask yourself, when you enter a Jiu-Jitsu match, you already know ahead of time if you're going to lose, how you're going to lose, okay? There's only a certain number of realistic submissions that work in the sport of Jiu-Jitsu. The number is very small. So ahead of time, you already know the most likely methods of submission loss in Jiu-Jitsu are gonna be things like heel hook, armbar, renegade strangle, guillotine, et cetera, et cetera. Just work backwards from that knowledge. So start off learning how to defend all of those things. You know what the major losing positions are in Jiu-Jitsu. If someone gets mounted on you, rear mount, side control, knee on belly, those are positions you can only lose from, so work backwards from there, getting out of those positions, and that's how I always start. I always say with my students, "I teach beginners from the ground up, and I teach experts backwards." What does that mean? When a young student comes to me with no skills, they learn from the ground up. They start on their backs defending pins. Then they start on their backs working from half-guard bottom, then on their backs working from variations of guard. They don't even get to see top position until they're strong off their backs. Then they go onto their knees and they start passing, start standing and passing, and then they work their pins and transitions, and then ultimately they stand up to their feet and they work standing position on their feet. So they work from ground back on the floor, to ground knees on the floor, ground standing, and then both athlete standings. There's a gradual progression over time where they work from the bottom to the top. With regards experts, I teach them end game first. They must become very, very strong in what finishes the match, which is submission holds, okay?

10. 1:04:40 – 1:08:52

    Submissions

    1. JDJohn Danaher1:04:40

       In chess, we always talk about endgame. I do the same thing in Jiu-Jitsu. I start experts just looking at the mechanics of breaking people and all the submission holds that I teach. You should know that I teach only a, a very small number of submission holds, around six. Um, it's interesting that my students have by far and away the highest submission rate in contemporary Jiu-Jitsu but they only learn around six to seven submission holds. Um, I start them with mechanics, where they learn the endgame, how to break someone. Once they develop in their mind the belief that if, the conditional if, they can get to one of those six positions, there's a very high likelihood they'll win, if they truly believe that, when it's competition time, they'll fucking find a way to get to those positions-

    2. LFLex Fridman1:05:46

       That's confidence.

    3. JDJohn Danaher1:05:47

       But if you don't believe, let's say you believe, "Man, if I get to a finishing position, an armbar or a strangle, there's only like a 20% chance I'll finish with it," how hard are you gonna fight to get to that position? You're not. Why? Why would you? But if you believe there's a 98% chance if you get to that position you'll finish, you'll find a way to get there.

    4. LFLex Fridman1:06:10

       That is so powerful. There are certain things, and maybe going back to judo a little bit is the, there's a clock choke-

    5. JDJohn Danaher1:06:18

       Mm-hmm.

    6. LFLex Fridman1:06:18

       ... for people who are listening, is with the gi when a perp- uh, when a person is in a turtle position, in a crouching position, and this is something that's done in judo quite a bit, but I have... It doesn't matter what the technique is. I have a belief in my head that there's not a person in the world that I can't choke with that clock choke, and-

    7. JDJohn Danaher1:06:40

       That's a good belief to have.

    8. LFLex Fridman1:06:41

       And I've done that and that, it was, um...It built on itself. The belief made the technique better and better and better.

    9. JDJohn Danaher1:06:52

       Now you're onto something. That's exactly the mindset that I'm trying to coach.

    10. LFLex Fridman1:06:56

        But that's step one. (laughs) You have to believe that once you get there-

    11. JDJohn Danaher1:07:00

        But you gotta start somewhere.

    12. LFLex Fridman1:07:02

        But th- and then-

    13. JDJohn Danaher1:07:03

        It's step one.

    14. LFLex Fridman1:07:03

        But then you have to create a system how to get there.

    15. JDJohn Danaher1:07:05

        But it's a damn important step.

    16. LFLex Fridman1:07:06

        Yeah.

    17. JDJohn Danaher1:07:07

        So you coach the end game first, and then you fill in the details afterwards.

    18. LFLex Fridman1:07:11

        Yeah, that's a huge confidence builder. But I just, I have to say, uh, to, to admit, and it makes me sad, but I think I'm not alone, I think, um, majority of jujitsu people are like this, that, uh, I, I didn't do the, the beginner step that you talk about, which is, uh, focusing on escapes. I think I learned the wrong lessons from being, from losing. I remember, uh, in a blue belt competition long ago, one... I was, uh, uh, I think it was, uh, yeah, it was the finals of Atlanta IBJJF tournament and there's a person that passed my guard. Uh, and he took mount, and he stayed in mount for a long time and I couldn't breathe. And it was like one of those things where I was truly dominated. I don't think I've been dominated in a j- jujitsu match quite like that before, and, or after. And the lesson I learned from that is I'm not gonna let, like, i- as opposed to working on escapes, I'm not gonna let anyone pass my guard.

    19. JDJohn Danaher1:08:22

        Yeah. What you learned is don't take risks.

    20. LFLex Fridman1:08:24

        Don't take risks.

    21. JDJohn Danaher1:08:26

        Yeah.

    22. LFLex Fridman1:08:26

        Which is ultimately what kills you.

    23. JDJohn Danaher1:08:29

        Ultimately, as you become the best you can, you gotta take risks. As they say, "Nothing risk, nothing gained." Um, failure usually makes us even more risk-averse than we started. We're already mentally biased being human beings in that direction. And failure tends to reinforce that. Um, I work hard in my training programs to try and correct that fault.

11. 1:08:52 – 1:25:00

    Reinventing yourself in 5 years

    1. JDJohn Danaher1:08:52

    2. LFLex Fridman1:08:52

       Is it still possible for a person who's a black belt to, to then just go back to that beginning journey, I guess, for-

    3. JDJohn Danaher1:08:59

       Of course. Let me tell you something. I'm probably gonna catch a lot of flak for saying this. I have a belief. I won't say something... I won't, I won't call it knowledge 'cause it's not known, but I, I have a fervent belief that human beings in most skill activities, not all skill activities, but I will say combat sports for sure, can reinvent themselves in five-year periods. Now you might be saying, "Five years, what's magical about five years?" Mike Tyson was 13 years old when he was taken in by Cus D'Amato. By the age of 18, he was beating world-class boxers in the gym and had already made a, a strong name for himself in international boxing. He was already a known figure. It was five years. Yasuhiro Yamashita, the Judo player-

    4. LFLex Fridman1:10:02

       Mm-hmm.

    5. JDJohn Danaher1:10:03

       ... began Judo at 13. He placed silver in the All Japans at 17. I could go on all day with examples of athletes who within a five-year timeframe of starting a sport were competing at world championship level. I'm gonna give you a rough and ready definition of sport mastery. Okay? I believe that if you can play a competitive match against someone ranked in the top 25 in your sport, and it's a serious international sport, I would call you someone who's mastered that sport.

    6. LFLex Fridman1:10:49

       Mm-hmm.

    7. JDJohn Danaher1:10:49

       Okay? You, you, you're damn good. Um, if you can go with the number 25 wrestler in the world and give them a hard competitive match in the gym, you may not win it, but, you know, they had a good workout, you have shown mastery of wrestling or indeed any other combat sport you care to name. There are numerous examples of people doing far better than that in five years. Winning medals at world championships and even Olympic Games in that five-year period. This is not an unrealistic goal. There is a lot of empirical evidence to show that people have done this in the past, a lot of it.

    8. LFLex Fridman1:11:34

       So you-

    9. JDJohn Danaher1:11:34

       If you fully immerse yourself in a sport with a well-worked-out, well-planned training program, there is a mountain of evidence to show that in a five-year period, you can go from a complete beginner to a very, very impressive skill level, to the point where you're competitive with some of the best people on the planet. You can reinvent yourself in these five-year periods. What happens with most people is they get to a certain level and they get complacent, they get lazy, and they just keep doing the same old thing they've been doing. But if you're diligent and you're purposeful, five years, you can accomplish an awful lot. And as I said, there's a mountain of evidence to show it.

    10. LFLex Fridman1:12:18

        By the way, as a small aside, somebody who's mentioned Tversky and Yamashita in the same conversation, you're one of the most impressive people I've ever (laughs) spoken to.

    11. JDJohn Danaher1:12:27

        Oh.

    12. LFLex Fridman1:12:27

        But as (laughs) -

    13. JDJohn Danaher1:12:28

        (laughs)

    14. LFLex Fridman1:12:28

        ... as a small aside, uh, so if, if there's this complete beginner, this is really interesting, your s- there is empirical evidence that you can achieve incredible things in a short amount of time, ho- there's a complete beginner standing before you, and that beginner has fire in their eyes, and they want to achieve mastery.Where do you place most of the credit for- for a journey that does achieve mastery? Is it the set of ideas they have in their mind? Is it the- the set of drills or the way they practice? Is it genetics and luck?

    15. JDJohn Danaher1:13:11

        Hmm. Uh, those are all good insights. All of those factors you've mentioned play a definite role. Uh, let's start with luck, okay? Um, we are all subject to fortune, and fortune can be good and fortune can be bad. Uh, life is, in many ways, beautiful, but life is also tragic, and I've had students who show enormous promise and just tragic events occur in their lives. Um, the vicissitudes of fortune can be a wonderful thing in your life and they can be a- a terrible tragedy. Um, I've had students who- who died, uh, for various reasons who could have gone on to become world champions. Um, I've had students who, uh, on a much lighter note, just fell in love and just wanted to have kids and move away, and that's- that's a- that's a wonderful thing, but different direction. Um, you just never know. So luck does play some role. Um, even things like where you're born, uh, the location of, uh, your physical, uh, location in the world, or even the socioeconomic location can- can play a role which could be detrimental or- or favorable. So yeah, luck does play some role. Thankfully, it's one of the smaller elements. Um, and, uh, I do believe that a truly resourceful mind can overcome the majority of what fortune throws at us and- and get to goals provided you're sufficiently mentally robust. Um, other things you mentioned, genetics. Uh, I do believe in certain sports, genetics really do play a powerful, powerful role. Uh, for example, in any sport where, um, power output and reaction speed, um, uh, ability to take physical damage, then there are genetic elements which will help, okay? For example, I couldn't imagine a world in which even if, uh, I- I have a crippled leg, so even if I, uh, grew up in a world where my leg was- was normal and I had normal legs and everything was fine with my body, I don't believe that I could win the Olympic gold medal in 100-meter sprinting, for example, okay? I just don't have enough fast twitch muscle fibers. But the more a sport involves skill and tactics, the less you will see genetics playing a role. If you look at the metal podiums in jujitsu, for example, you will see that no one body type is definitively superior to another. You will see every variation of body type in- in the metal platforms in- in jujitsu. Um, as skill and tactics become more and more important and things like just power output over time become less and less important, then you'll see that, um, uh, genetics play less and less of a role. I'm- I'm happy to say that the sport of jujitsu, the evidence seems pretty clear that there's no one dominant body type in the sport of jujitsu. Rather, there's just advantages for one type and there's advantages for another. You just have to learn to tailor your game to your body. Um, with regard to training program, yes, I believe with all my heart and all my soul that your training program does make a difference. I've dedicated my life to that. Obviously, I'm biased in this regard. Um, I do believe that all of the students that I taught who became world champions would have been great athletes whether or not they had met me or not. I believe that. But I do also believe it would have taken them a lot longer and they may not have gotten to the level that they did. They... I'm sure they would have been impressive, but I do believe that the nature of a training program plays an enormous difference. I don't mean to say this in an arrogant way. I believe that there's, again, a mountain of evidence this s- suggests this is true because you see it in many different sports. Let's talk, for example, about your country, Russia, and its wrestling program. Russia is an enormous country, but the location where Russia's wrestling program comes from is actually very small and the population is actually very small. I can't verify this, but s- I was told once, I- I can't verify this, but the number of people who wrestle in Russia is actually significantly smaller than the number of people who wrestle in the United States.

    16. LFLex Fridman1:17:47

        It's also not part of the school, uh, s- uh, athletics and it is in the United States.

    17. JDJohn Danaher1:17:52

        Yes. Uh, that's a different point. We'll come back to right-

    18. LFLex Fridman1:17:55

        Sure.

    19. JDJohn Danaher1:17:55

        ... to that 'cause that's also an important point. But if you look at the actual numbers of people there, they're actually pretty small. So ostensibly, if it- if it comes down to a numbers game, America should dominate at the Olympics 'cause we have more wrestlers. Now, there's... the story gets more complicated because America has a different style of wrestling, the collegiate style than the international freestyle. That is a complicating factor. Um, uh, but nonetheless, uh, what you see there is that numbers aren't everything. Rather, the manner in which people are trained clearly has an impact, and we know very little about the... there's very little reliable information about the training program for wrestling in, uh, i- in the Russian states. But one thing is incontestable is the amount of success that they've had at international world championship and, uh, Olympic competition. They are disproportionately successful despite their relatively small numbers. There's nothing genetically special about them. Um, you can talk about...... performance-enhancing drugs, but those are a worldwide phenomenon. There's, they don't have any access to technology that the rest of the world doesn't have. Um, uh, at some point, you gotta start asking, "What are they doing differently in the training room?" And there are many other examples of similar situations. My country, New Zealand, um, has an insanely successful rugby program, the sport of rugby, which they have dominated, uh, for literally generations despite the fact that our population is very, very small compared with the rest of the country, and we don't excel in many other sports. It's, New Zealand does fairly well in, uh, sports overall but nothing like they do in, in rugby. Um, and you gotta ask yourself, is there a culture there which, which built this up? And the world is full of examples of seemingly small and unpromising areas or locations putting out disproportionately high numbers of successful athletes, and that points to the idea that different training programs have different success rates. And so I truly believe with all my heart and all my soul that how you train does make a significant difference. I would even go further and say it makes the most difference. Is it the only thing? Absolutely not. We've already talked about fortune. We've talked about genetics. Um, uh, if you wanna get nasty, we can even talk about things like performance-enhancing drugs that obviously plays a role in modern sports. Um, uh, but I do believe that the majority of, uh, of what creates success is the interaction between the athlete and the training program. Now, the training program is one thing. I, I do believe that's the single most important, but right behind it is the athlete themselves, okay? Um, in my own experience, uh, people talk about athletes that I've trained successfully, but they never talk about athletes that I've trained unsuccessfully. Um, always remember that for every champion a coach produces, there's a hundred people that they coach that no one ever heard of, and this is completely normal. A coach can never take the lion's share of the credit. A coach creates possibilities, but it's the athlete who actualizes the possibilities, and so building that rapport and finding the right people to excel in your training program is also a big part of it.

    20. LFLex Fridman1:21:39

        What makes the difference between the successful, your successes and your failures as a coach?

    21. JDJohn Danaher1:21:45

        Um, a range of reasons. The single most important is persistence. Um, people will point to all kinds of virtues amongst athletes. "This guy's the most courageous. This guy's the strongest." Th- uh, these are all virtues, but the one indispensable virtue is persistence, the ability just to stay in the game long enough to get the results you seek.

    22. LFLex Fridman1:22:09

        But what does persistence really look like if we can just break that apart a little bit? What-

    23. JDJohn Danaher1:22:14

        It's actually, uh, this is a great question you're asking because most people see it as a kind of simplistic doggedness where you just show up every day. That's not it. The most important form of persistence is persistence of thinking which looks to push you in increasingly efficient, more and more efficient methods of training. Um, famously, people talk about the idea that the hardest work of all is hard thinking, and they're absolutely right, okay? Coming into the gym and just doing the same thing for a decade isn't going to make you better. What's going to make you better is progressive training over time where you identify clear goals marked out in time increments, three months, six months, 12 months, five years, um, and build those short-term goals into a program of long-term goals, um, making sure that the training program changes over time so that as your skill level rises, the challenges you face in the gym become higher and higher. Don't kill them at the start with challenges that are too hard for them to deal with. They get discouraged and leave. Build them slowly over time, but make sure they don't just get left in a swamp where they're just doing the same thing they were doing three years ago and they get bored and, and... There's two ways you can leave in a gym. You can leave from adversity, it was too tough, or you can leave from boredom. Everyone talks about the first. No one talks about the second. Most people when they get to black belt, they get bored. They know what their game is. They know what they're good at. They know what they're not good at. When they compete, they stick with what they're good at, and they avoid what they're not good at.

    24. LFLex Fridman1:23:55

        Yeah.

    25. JDJohn Danaher1:23:55

        And they get bored. They reach a plateau, and that's it. My whole thing is to make sure it's not so tough at the start that they leave because of adversity and then for the rest of their career to make sure it's not boring so they leave because of boredom.

    26. LFLex Fridman1:24:10

        Travis Stevens actually said something that changed the way I see training. He said it as a side comment, but he said that at the end of a training, uh, at the end of a good training session, your mind should be exhausted, not your body. And, um, I've, for most of my life, saw good training sessions where my body was exhausted.

    27. JDJohn Danaher1:24:31

        Mm-hmm. Yes. I, I believe that's the case with most people, yeah, that you should come out of the training session with your mind buzzing with ideas, like possibilities for tomorrow. And by the way, on that note, I would go further and say that the training session doesn't finish when your body stops moving. It finishes when your mind stops moving, and your mind shouldn't stop moving. After that session, there should be analysis. What did I do well? What did I do badly? How could I do better with the things that I did well?

12. 1:25:00 – 1:43:31

    Drilling

    1. JDJohn Danaher1:25:00

    2. LFLex Fridman1:25:00

       Can I ask you about something that-... I truly enjoy and I think is really powerful, but most people don't seem to believe in that, but it's drilling. I don't know, maybe people are different, but I love the idea, maybe even outside of Jiu-Jitsu, of doing the same thing over and over. It's like Jiro dreams of sushi. I love doing the thing, uh, that nobody wants to do and doing it 10 times, 100 times, 1,000 times more than what nobody wants to do. Um, so I'm a huge fan of drilling. Ob- obviously, I'm not a professional athlete, but I feel like if I actually gave myself... If I wanted to be really good at Jiu-Jitsu, like l- reach the level of being in the top 25 when I was much younger, like really strive, uh, I think I could achieve it by drilling.

    3. JDJohn Danaher1:25:56

       Hmm.

    4. LFLex Fridman1:25:56

       That's... I had this belief, untested. Can you challenge this idea? (laughs) Or, or, or agree with it?

    5. JDJohn Danaher1:26:03

       Okay, uh, first off, fascinating. However, we're going to have to-

    6. LFLex Fridman1:26:07

       Disagree?

    7. JDJohn Danaher1:26:08

       No, no.

    8. LFLex Fridman1:26:08

       Okay.

    9. JDJohn Danaher1:26:09

       Um, we're just gonna have to start to understand what are we talking about when we talk about drilling. It's a very vague term.

    10. LFLex Fridman1:26:17

        Mm-hmm.

    11. JDJohn Danaher1:26:18

        (inhales deeply) Okay, if you're... Um, at this moment, many of your listeners are probably saying, having the same thought process, which is that, "Oh, drilling. Yeah, I know what that is. We go into the gym, and we pick a move and we practice it for a certain number of repetitions. And if I do that, I'm gonna get better at the technique." Okay? Um, they're wrong. We've gotta have a much more in-depth understanding of what the hell we're talking about when we talk about drilling. Ultimately, any movement in the gym that doesn't improve the skills you already have or build new skills is a waste of time, a waste of resources. Everything you do should be done with the aim and the understanding that this is gonna make me better at the sport I practice. If it's not, it shouldn't be there. (inhales deeply) The majority of what passes for drilling in most training halls will not make you better, including some of the most cherished forms of drilling, which is repetition for numbers. The moment you say to someone, "I want you to do this 100 times," what are they really thinking about? Volume. They're saying, "Okay, I'm at repetition 78."

    12. LFLex Fridman1:27:53

        Yeah.

    13. JDJohn Danaher1:27:53

        "I'm at 80, 20 more to go." All they're talking... Their primary thought process is on numbers. That's not the point of drilling. The point is skill acquisition. When people drill, don't get them focused on numbers. Get them focused on mechanics. That's what they have to worry about. I never have my students drill for, for numbers, ever. Just, you know, "One, two, three." Get the fuck outta here.

    14. LFLex Fridman1:28:20

        (laughs)

    15. JDJohn Danaher1:28:21

        Are you kidding me?

    16. LFLex Fridman1:28:21

        Yeah.

    17. JDJohn Danaher1:28:21

        Like, how are you gonna get better with that, okay? Get them working on the sense of gaining knowledge. That's my job. I have to give them knowledge. I have to explain to them what they're trying to do. That starts them on the right track, but knowledge is one thing. Skill is another. If Jiu-Jitsu was just about knowledge, then all the 60 and 70-year-old red belts would be the world champions. They're not. Jiu-Jitsu isn't won by knowledge, it's won by skill. Knowledge is the first step in building skill. So, my job as a coach is to transmit knowledge. Then I have to create training programs with a path from knowledge to polished skill is carried out. That's the interface between me and my students. And so I give them drills where the whole emphasis is upon getting a sense where they understand what are the problems they're trying to solve and working towards practical solutions. They never work with numbers. They work with mechanics and feel. Then you have to bring in the idea of progression. When you drill, there's zero resistance. When you fight in competition, there's 100% resistance. You can't go from 0 to 100. There has to be progress over time where I have them work in drills with slightly increasing increments of resistance and just as we talked about earlier with the weightlifter who doesn't start with 500 pounds, but who begins with the bar and then over time builds the skills that one day out there in the future, he will lift 500 pounds. So too, that juji-gatame that you're working on today is feeble and pathetic, but five years from now, you'll win a world championship with it. You can't have this naive idea of drilling as something you just come out, you randomly pick a move, and you work for numbers until you're satisfied a certain set of numbers that your coach threw at you and then think you're gonna get better. There's even dangers with drilling. There is no performance increase that comes once you get to a certain level and you just keep doing the same damn thing. Let's say, for example, you come out and you hit 100 repetitions of-... the arm bar, juji-gatame from guard position, and you're all proud of yourself 'cause you hit 100 repetitions and your body's tired and you're telling yourself, "Man, I got a good workout." And you come in tomorrow, and you do exactly the same thing. You come in the day after that, and a week goes by, and you've done the same thing. Then a year later, you do the same thing. Ask yourself, has your juji-gatame really gotten better? No. You've performed literally thousands and thousands of repetitions. You have spent an enormous amount of training time and energy that could have gone in different directions on something which didn't make you any better. Drills have diminishing returns. Once you get to a certain skill level, if you just keep hammering on the same thing, in the same fashion, for the same amount of time, you stop getting better.

    18. LFLex Fridman1:32:03

        Can I, partially for fun, partially for devil's advocate, but partially because I actually believe this, to push back on some points. Is it possible ... So, everything you said, I think is beautiful and correct. But the asking yourself the question, "Am I getting better?" is a really important one, and you could do that in training. Is there a set of techniques, maybe a small subset of all the techniques that are in Jiu-Jitsu, where you can have significant skill acquisition if you put in the numbers or the time, whatever, on a technique against an opponent who's not resisting? Here's wh- let me elaborate.

    19. JDJohn Danaher1:32:44

        Mm.

    20. LFLex Fridman1:32:45

        What I've, in my ... Maybe I'm different.

    21. JDJohn Danaher1:32:47

        You'll probably have to furnish an example.

    22. LFLex Fridman1:32:48

        Yes. Uh, let me first make a general statement, and then I can give examples. The general statement is, I found that through repetitions, and this is high repetitions, uh, combined with training, but high repetitions against a non-resisting opponent, I've gotten to understand the way my body moves, the way I apply pressure on a human, 'cause it's not actually zero resistance. The opponent's still laying there. They're still keeping their legs up. They're still doing-

Episode duration: 3:37:53