Lex Fridman PodcastDr. Julia Shaw on Lex Fridman: Why murder fantasy is normal
Why most people harbor murder fantasies that never become behavior; the dark tetrad places psychopathy and sadism on spectrums everyone occupies.
At a glance
WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT
Inside Evil: Julia Shaw On Murder, Memory, Sex, and Green Crime
- Lex Fridman and criminal psychologist Julia Shaw explore how so‑called “evil” behaviors exist on a psychological continuum rather than in a good–evil binary, focusing on the dark tetrad traits and why ordinary people can commit extraordinary harm. They discuss false memories, lie detection, serial killers, murder fantasies, jealousy, kinks, bisexuality, and non‑monogamy, emphasizing empathy and nuance instead of moral panic. Shaw explains her research showing how easily false criminal memories can be implanted, and why this matters for police interviews, therapy, AI systems, and personal wellbeing. In the final part, she introduces her work on environmental crime, arguing that corporate and ecological offenders are best understood through the same psychological lenses as other criminals, and that tech and social science together can be used to prevent harm.
IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING
5 ideasEvil is a spectrum of traits, not a fixed category of people.
Shaw argues that psychopathy, sadism, narcissism, and Machiavellianism exist on continua that all humans fall along; calling people “evil” shuts down understanding, fuels dehumanization, and makes atrocities easier to justify.
Most people are capable of serious harm under the right conditions.
From war crimes to neighbor betrayals, history shows ordinary individuals can commit murder and torture when factors like dehumanization, group identity, loneliness, entitlement, and social pressure align.
Our intuition about who is dangerous or lying is often wrong.
Creepiness and “gut” trustworthiness are poor indicators of actual risk, and even trained police detect lies at chance levels; overconfidence in these instincts contributes to wrongful convictions and broken relationships.
Autobiographical memory is reconstructive and highly fallible.
Nearly all personal memories are partly inaccurate, and with leading questions or suggestive therapy you can implant detailed false memories—even of crimes—so key events should be recorded as soon as possible, outside the brain.
Dark fantasies and kinks are common and not inherently pathological.
Murder fantasies occur in most men and over half of women, and many people have BDSM or other kinks; these can be adaptive ways of mentally rehearsing boundaries or disinhibiting in consensual contexts, rather than signs of “monsters.”
WORDS WORTH SAVING
5 quotesWe all have the capacity to kill people and murder people and do other terrible things. The question is why we don't do those things rather than why we do.
— Julia Shaw
When we call somebody evil we say, ‘This person is so different from me that I don't even need to bother trying to understand why they are capable of doing terrible things.’
— Julia Shaw
Most of the time our autobiographical memories are good enough. The question isn't whether they're false, the question is how false.
— Julia Shaw
Fraud works because people know what we want to hear and they tell us the things we want to hear.
— Julia Shaw
What we want is not just to label people; we want to stop that behavior from happening. And the only way we're going to do that is if we understand what led that person there.
— Julia Shaw
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