Michael Malice: Thanksgiving Pirate Special | Lex Fridman Podcast #402

Lex Fridman 0:00 What's your opinion on my bird here, Mr. Parrot?

Michael Malice 0:04 It's a macaw, a scarlet macaw.

Lex Fridman 0:07 What?

Michael Malice 0:08 It is a scarlet macaw.

Lex Fridman 0:10 Oh, you know birds.

Michael Malice 0:11 Yeah. And that's actually not life-sized.

Lex Fridman 0:15 (laughs) Are you saying he's not real?

Michael Malice 0:17 I'm saying it's not to scale.

Lex Fridman 0:19 Okay. But he's real?

Michael Malice 0:21 Are we doing that Monty Python sketch? (laughs)

Lex Fridman 0:25 (laughs) Everything is a Monty Python skit for you.

Michael Malice 0:26 I don't think Monty Python's funny and I-

Lex Fridman 0:28 You don't?

Michael Malice 0:29 ... uh, at all, like not once.

Lex Fridman 0:29 Well, that explains so much.

Michael Malice 0:31 Does it? What does it explain?

Lex Fridman 0:32 What do you think is funny?

Michael Malice 0:33 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 0:35 (laughs) What?

Michael Malice 0:35 You not answering that question is pretty funny. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 0:37 Well, yeah, what- what- what do you think is funny? Having a mantis shrimp?

Michael Malice 0:41 No, that-

Lex Fridman 0:42 Do you think Big Lebowski is funny?

Michael Malice 0:44 Oh, God, no. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 0:46 This is getting worse and worse. The following is a conversation with Michael Malice, anarchist and author of Dear Reader, The New Right, The Anarchist Handbook, The White Pill, and he is the host of the podcast, You're Welcome. This is a Thanksgiving special of the pirate and ocean-going variety. So once again, let me say thank you for listening today and for being part of this wild journey with me. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description and now, dear friends, here's Michael Malice.

Michael Malice 1:34 The box?

Lex Fridman 1:35 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:35 The mystery box?

Lex Fridman 1:35 I'm wondering what's in it.

Michael Malice 1:36 There's something in that box of exquisite beauty-

Lex Fridman 1:41 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:41 ... both literally and in what it symbolizes, and why it is here.

Lex Fridman 1:46 Given the kind of human being you are, I'm terrified at what you find beautiful.

Michael Malice 1:52 That's a good point. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:54 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:54 You kinda hit me with a curveball.

Lex Fridman 1:56 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:57 Like for me, the most beautiful, like wildlife-

Lex Fridman 2:01 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 2:01 ... are what I call, uh, God's mistakes.

Lex Fridman 2:04 Yeah.

Michael Malice 2:04 Because my friend came up with that term where she's like, "You know, God made these disgusting animals, just threw them at the bottom of the ocean." He's like, "Ugh, no one's ever gonna see this."

Lex Fridman 2:12 Yeah, you, uh, you commented on Twitter about some creature, like a- a rainbow-type creature.

Michael Malice 2:17 The peacock mantis shrimp.

Lex Fridman 2:18 Yeah. It was beautiful.

Michael Malice 2:20 It's horrific, though. So it has, I think, eight legs, six arms, two punching claws or spearing claws, depending on the genus, uh, two eyes, two antennae, two ear flaps, I don't know what they do, um, and its punch can be as strong as a bullet.

Lex Fridman 2:39 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 2:39 And the other type with the spears, divers call them thumb splitters, because if you stick your finger near it, it'll cut your thumb down to the bone. So I had one as a pet. All night, I would hear it banging on the PVC pipe, and I've gotta tell you, they have the best eyesight of any animal 'cause they see in like seven different ways, and when you make eye contact with this thing, it's- it's just absolutely terrifying. But you can eat them as sushi. They call them sea centipedes.

Lex Fridman 3:01 But they're colorful and beautiful.

Michael Malice 3:03 That species is, yeah.

Lex Fridman 3:04 What was it like having one as a pet?

Michael Malice 3:07 It-

Lex Fridman 3:07 And why did you do it?

Michael Malice 3:09 Well, when you have a species that's that unique and that much of an outlier, you know, growing up reading these books, watching these shows, I found the stuff so much more fascinating than like space, in which is, you know, dead. Um, so to be able to have this specimen in your house and just observe its behavior, um, is just- just like an amazing thing.

Lex Fridman 3:32 Why'd you get rid of it?

Michael Malice 3:34 I didn't have, I guess, the right minerals in the mix, because-

Lex Fridman 3:36 It died?

Michael Malice 3:37 ... it had a problem molting once. Yeah. It couldn't molt correctly.

Lex Fridman 3:40 Wow. You miss it? Think about it still?

Michael Malice 3:43 I do think about it, to be honest. I still have a pair of its claw, uh, punching, um, appendages from when it molted.

Lex Fridman 3:51 What pet animal in your life do you miss the most? That has been in your life? That you think about?

Michael Malice 3:59 I've never had cats or dogs growing up or anything like that, which, you know, I... Oh, God. (sighs) My problem is-

Lex Fridman 4:07 There we go.

Michael Malice 4:08 ... (sighs) if I like something-

Lex Fridman 4:11 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 4:12 ... I will go down a rabbit hole.

Lex Fridman 4:13 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Michael Malice 4:14 So I know if I got one tattoo, I already know what my first five are gonna be, okay? So I can't do it, 'cause then once I get those five, it's gonna be a hundred, and I'm already too old to be the tattoo guy.

Lex Fridman 4:26 What would be the first tattoo?

Michael Malice 4:27 Um-

Lex Fridman 4:28 My face?

Michael Malice 4:30 (laughs) Um-

Lex Fridman 4:31 Like, would it go on your ass cheeks, or where would you put them?

Michael Malice 4:34 (laughs)

Narrator 4:34 Second-

Lex Fridman 4:34 If it was my face.

Michael Malice 4:36 ... if I got your face-

Lex Fridman 4:37 Yeah.

Michael Malice 4:37 ... it would definitely be on my arm right here.

Lex Fridman 4:39 If you had multiple faces, would you put like-

Michael Malice 4:42 I think delts, right, shoulders? Different faces on different shoulders?

Lex Fridman 4:44 And then when you flex?

Michael Malice 4:45 I'd want some symmetry.

Lex Fridman 4:46 Yeah, yeah. Would you get a dictator? If you, if you had to get a dictator, who would you get?

Michael Malice 4:50 It would have to be Kim Jong Il, right?

Lex Fridman 4:52 Hmm.

Michael Malice 4:53 'Cause I wrote the book on him.

Lex Fridman 4:54 Oh, so like plugging your book-

Michael Malice 4:56 No, I don't think plugging.

Lex Fridman 4:57 ... in a tattoo?

Michael Malice 4:57 It's just like I have a personal connection to the stuff-

Lex Fridman 4:59 Good opener-

Michael Malice 5:00 ... to this-

Lex Fridman 5:00 ... to the conversation.

Michael Malice 5:01 ... to this.

Lex Fridman 5:01 People would be asking, "Why him?" And then you'd be like, "Well, I wrote a book about it."

Michael Malice 5:05 Well, I-

Lex Fridman 5:05 (laughs) They'd be like, "Oh, okay."

Michael Malice 5:07 Okay. Here-here's what-

Lex Fridman 5:07 "Let me check it out."

Michael Malice 5:08 That would be a bad op- No, that's not what happens.

Lex Fridman 5:10 Okay.

Michael Malice 5:11 Here's the thing.

Lex Fridman 5:12 What happens?

Michael Malice 5:13 When you write a book about North... "Hey, nice to meet you. What is it you do?" "I'm an author." "What kind of books do you write?" "Well, my last book was on North Korea."

Lex Fridman 5:19 Yeah.

Michael Malice 5:20 90% of the time, 90, they will then start telling me everything they know about North Korea. And it's like, I don't need... This isn't a quiz-

Lex Fridman 5:28 Okay.

Michael Malice 5:28 ... and it's a very poorly understood country. I don't expect you to know anything. You're not on the spot. And- and half what you're saying is not accurate either. It's fine.

Lex Fridman 5:36 How often do they bring up Dennis Rodman?

Michael Malice 5:38 Uh, 100%.

Lex Fridman 5:39 100% of the time.

Michael Malice 5:40 Oh, so you do- do you know Dennis Rodman?

Lex Fridman 5:42 Yeah.

Michael Malice 5:42 But I don't understand why... I guess people f- feel the need to, like, all right, like, "Now we're talking about this subject, I just gotta, you know, drop whatever I can talk about." It's usually a small amount. And there's this thing in the culture, which I hate, that everyone have to have an opinion on everything.

Lex Fridman 5:57 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 5:57 And it's like, it's okay to be like, "Yeah, I don't know anything about that. Tell me more," you know? There's lots of things I don't know anything about.

Lex Fridman 6:02 What's your opinion on-... my bird here, Mr. Parrot.

Michael Malice 6:07 It's a macaw, scarlet macaw.

Lex Fridman 6:10 What?

Michael Malice 6:11 It is a scarlet macaw.

Lex Fridman 6:13 Oh, you know birds.

Michael Malice 6:14 Yeah. No, that's actually not life-sized.

Lex Fridman 6:18 Are you saying he's not real?

Michael Malice 6:20 I'm saying it's not to scale.

Lex Fridman 6:22 Okay. But he's real?

Michael Malice 6:24 Are we doing that Monty Python sketch? (laughs)

Lex Fridman 6:27 (laughs) Everything is a Monty Python sketch.

Michael Malice 6:29 I don't think Monty Python's funny and I-

Lex Fridman 6:31 You don't?

Michael Malice 6:31 ... at all, like not-

Lex Fridman 6:32 Well, that explains so much.

Michael Malice 6:33 Does it? What does it explain?

Lex Fridman 6:35 What do you think is funny?

Michael Malice 6:37 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 6:37 (laughs)

Michael Malice 6:38 You not answering that question is pretty funny. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 6:40 Well, yeah, wha- what, what do you think is funny? Having a mental shrimp?

Michael Malice 6:44 No, uh-

Lex Fridman 6:45 Do you think Big Lebowski is funny?

Michael Malice 6:47 Oh, God, no.

Lex Fridman 6:48 (laughs)

Michael Malice 6:48 Although-

Lex Fridman 6:49 This is getting worse and worse.

Michael Malice 6:50 ... to be fair-

Lex Fridman 6:51 Yep.

Michael Malice 6:52 ... I only tried to watch Big Lebowski after it's been part of the culture for many years.

Lex Fridman 6:57 Right.

Michael Malice 6:58 To the point where every single line has been quoted incessantly by the most annoying frat bros ever.

Lex Fridman 7:06 Yeah.

Michael Malice 7:06 So I kind of have been poisoned to be able to appreciate it.

Lex Fridman 7:10 Right.

Michael Malice 7:10 So maybe if I'd seen it when it came out, before it became a thing, I would have enjoyed it. I couldn't get through it. Like I couldn't get through 20 minutes.

Lex Fridman 7:17 Is that how you feel about Schindler's List?

Michael Malice 7:21 Well-

Lex Fridman 7:21 It's so much easier for me to stare at you when you have sunglasses on.

Michael Malice 7:24 I didn't think you'd be the one making Holocaust jokes today.

Lex Fridman 7:27 (laughs)

Michael Malice 7:27 And yet, here we are.

Lex Fridman 7:28 And cut scene.

Michael Malice 7:31 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 7:31 (laughs) I actually have like no trouble making eye contact with you when you're wearing shades.

Michael Malice 7:35 Yes, 'cause you're a robot.

Lex Fridman 7:36 Two, (laughs) two copies of myself.

Michael Malice 7:38 Yeah. Oh, you seeing yourself in them?

Lex Fridman 7:39 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 7:40 Okay, cool.

Lex Fridman 7:40 Yeah, I'm having (laughs) a conversation with myself.

Michael Malice 7:43 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 7:43 It's not your fault, Lex.

Michael Malice 7:46 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 7:46 (laughs)

Michael Malice 7:46 They made you like this. You were just a good little robot-

Lex Fridman 7:49 (laughs)

Michael Malice 7:49 ... in, in St. Petersburg.

Lex Fridman 7:50 (laughs) I can see Mr. Parrot a little bit too.

Michael Malice 7:54 Well, what do you find funny? Come on, let, let's... This is an interesting subject.

Lex Fridman 7:57 Well, I find Monty Python... I find absurdity funny.

Michael Malice 8:00 Yes. I find absurdity funny. I, I think that's the thing. When people come at me, and m- maybe this is an Eastern European thing.

Lex Fridman 8:08 Yeah.

Michael Malice 8:08 When they're like, "How can you find this like very dark subject funny?" It's like, well, the humor... First of all, the humor is that you're making fun of something that's dark. So already it's absurd. Like it's completely inappropriate. Second, just psychologically, you know, Joan Rivers said that Winston Churchill said, I don't know if it's true, that when you make people laugh, you're giving them a little vacation.

Lex Fridman 8:29 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 8:30 And I was just thinking about this the other day, how when I die, if, I want my funeral to be a roast.

Lex Fridman 8:37 Yeah.

Michael Malice 8:38 It doesn't help me that everyone's sad. If I brought people happiness or joy in life, whatever, I wanna keep doing that in death. Your sadness doesn't help me. I know you can't help it, but tell stories how I made you laugh, make fun of me, make me the punching bag, even literally take me out of that coffin and, and beat the cr-... I don't... Make me a pinata, I don't care.

Lex Fridman 8:57 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 8:58 So I, I think... And it, it's, it's... I don't understand. Well, I do understand, but it's sad for me when people are like, you know, "This isn't funny. That isn't funny." I feel... Uh, the way I look at humor is the way... It's like a chef, right? It's pretty easy to make bacon taste good, but some of these really obscure ingredients, to make it palatable, that's takes skill. So if you're dealing with a subject that is very emotional or intense and you can make people laugh, then that takes skill, and that's the relief for them.

Lex Fridman 9:30 Yeah. It's all about timing.

Michael Malice 9:33 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 9:34 Yeah. (laughs)

Michael Malice 9:38 (laughs) What's the differe... You wanna hear one of my jokes?

Lex Fridman 9:40 (laughs) Uh, is it a pirate joke? 'Cause that's the only, (laughs) that's the only kind I accept today.

Michael Malice 9:45 Okay.

Lex Fridman 9:45 But no, go ahead. It doesn't have to be a pirate joke.

Michael Malice 9:47 Um.

Lex Fridman 9:47 This one time.

Michael Malice 9:48 Do you know who Leah Thomas is?

Lex Fridman 9:50 Yeah.

Michael Malice 9:51 What's the difference between Leah Thomas and Hitler?

Lex Fridman 9:53 Wha- what?

Michael Malice 9:54 Leah Thomas knows how to finish a race.

Lex Fridman 9:58 Very nice. Very nice. Uh-

Michael Malice 9:59 (laughs) Did I just get the gold medal?

Lex Fridman 10:00 (laughs) Good job. Well, why does it take, uh, pirates forever to get through the alphabet?

Michael Malice 10:09 Why?

Lex Fridman 10:10 (laughs) 'Cause they spent years at sea.

Michael Malice 10:13 Oh, I thought it was gonna be an arrr joke.

Lex Fridman 10:16 Nope, nope.

Michael Malice 10:16 That's a good one. I like that.

Lex Fridman 10:17 (laughs)

Michael Malice 10:18 When I was in North Korea, one-

Lex Fridman 10:20 (laughs) Oh, you know Dennis Rodman.

Michael Malice 10:22 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 10:23 It's a call back.

Michael Malice 10:23 By the way, the thing that is very heartbreaking about the North Korean situation is that they have a great sense of humor. Uh, it would be a lot easier if these were like robots or drones. They have big personalities, big senses of humor, and that made it much harder to leave and interact with these people 'cause it, it's... I mean, there's nothing more human and universal than, than laughter, and laughter is free.

Lex Fridman 10:47 Are you saying there's humor even amongst the people that have most of their freedoms taken away?

Michael Malice 10:52 Especially. I mean, again, we're from, you know, the Soviet Union. Like there's a ƒanekdoty. There's a... I mean, Russian humor is a thing because it's, there's nothing you can... This... If you can't have food or nice things, at least you can have joy and make each other laugh. I think about it all the time. And I think about my guide all the time. It's been, what, uh, 2012, so it's been 11 years since I've been there. She's still there and everyone I've seen is still there. They just recently, um, electrified the border, uh, so you can't even... Even the few people who are escaping can't do it anymore.

Lex Fridman 11:19 Well, that's interesting that they still have a sense of humor. I attribute the Soviet Union for having that because of the, uh, like really deep education system.

Michael Malice 11:27 How-

Lex Fridman 11:27 Like you, you got to read a lot of literature.

Michael Malice 11:29 Okay.

Lex Fridman 11:30 And because of that, you get to kind of learn about the, the cruelty, the injustices, the absurdity of the world.

Michael Malice 11:40 Right.

Lex Fridman 11:40 As long as the writing is not about the current regime.

Michael Malice 11:43 Yeah, but I think like if you look at like African Americans, Jewish Americans, gay Americans, they are all disproportionate in terms of contributing to comedy.

Lex Fridman 11:51 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 11:51 It's not 'cause these groups have some kind of, you know, m- magic to them. It's that when you are on the outside looking in, A, you're gonna have different perspective than the people who are in the middle of the bell curve. But also when you don't have anything to lose, at the very least, you can make each other laugh and, and find happiness that way. Um, so, you know, that is something that I think, um...... i- is an important thing to recognize.

Lex Fridman 12:14 So what do you find funny? What makes you giggle, like, in the most joyful of ways? The suffering of others?

Michael Malice 12:24 I mean, I, there are, um, YouTube videos of, uh, (laughs) of like fat people falling down, (laughs) and they're, they're really funny.

Lex Fridman 12:36 There's two kinds of people in this world. Those that laugh at those videos, and those that don't.

Michael Malice 12:42 No, and those that are in them. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 12:44 Ah.

Michael Malice 12:45 Um, my friend Jessie just told me a great Norm MacDonald joke.

Lex Fridman 12:49 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 12:49 And this is a good litmus test joke, 'cause he says, "A certain group of people lose their minds, and a certain group of people just stare at you."

Lex Fridman 12:56 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 12:57 And he goes this kind of... And so I'll tell you the joke. This is Norm MacDonald. A guy walks into a bar, and he sees someone at the bar who has a big pumpkin for a head.

Lex Fridman 13:06 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 13:07 And the guy's like, "Dude, what happened to you?" He goes, "Ugh, you'll never believe this. I got one of those genie lamps, and this genie..." He's like, "Wait, what happened?" He goes, "Well, the first wish, you know, I wished for $100 million." He's like, "Yeah, did you get it?" He goes, "Yeah." You know, he goes, "In my bank account, feels fine." He goes, "All right." "Well, the second wish, I wished to have sex with as many beautiful women as I wanted." He goes, "Did that happen?" He goes, "Yeah, it was amazing." He goes, "Then what?" "Well, I wished for a giant pumpkin head." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 13:34 (laughs) Yeah.

Michael Malice 13:35 So there's a certain mindset that will just be staring at the screen.

Lex Fridman 13:38 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 13:39 And that is, I mean, there's so many levels why that's funny, at least to me, and I, I just love that kind of ...

Lex Fridman 13:45 Well, Norm MacDonald is like, uh, just... I watch his videos all the time. He's, he is a guy that definitely makes me giggle, and he's one of the people that makes me giggle for reasons I don't quite understand.

Michael Malice 13:58 Did you ever see him with Carrot Top on, um, Conan O'Brien?

Lex Fridman 14:01 No.

Michael Malice 14:02 Oh, making fun of Carrot Top?

Lex Fridman 14:04 No.

Michael Malice 14:05 He... This is probably the best talk show clip of all time.

Lex Fridman 14:08 Yeah.

Michael Malice 14:09 He's on with Courtney Thorne-Smith, she was on Melrose Place, and Conan O'Brien's the host. And Courtney's talking about how she's gonna be an upcoming movie with Carrot Top. And Conan's like, "Oh, what's it gonna be called?" And she's like, "It doesn't have a title yet." And Norman goes, "Oh, I know what it should be called, Box Office Poison." And they're all laughing, and she's like, "No, no, no," like, "the working title is Chairman of the Bored." And Conan goes, "Do something with that smart ass." And Norman goes, "Yeah, bored is spelled B-O-R-E-D." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 14:37 (laughs)

Michael Malice 14:37 And they all just completely lost it.

Lex Fridman 14:39 There's something about him with words spoken out of his mouth, with the way he, like, turns his head and looks at the camera.

Michael Malice 14:46 I think he is one of those rare comedians who you really feel like he's talking to you directly.

Lex Fridman 14:53 Yeah.

Michael Malice 14:53 He feels like he's winking at you-

Lex Fridman 14:55 Yeah.

Michael Malice 14:55 ... in the audience, and he's like, "Can you, can you believe I'm doing this?" Like, it's, it's like he almost, he feels like he's, I don't wanna say imposter, but, like, he's more a member of the audience than he is a member of the people on the stage.

Lex Fridman 15:06 Yeah, it feels like he's on our side, whatever-

Michael Malice 15:08 Yes, yeah.

Lex Fridman 15:09 ... whatever the hell our means.

Michael Malice 15:11 You know Roseanne got him his first job?

Lex Fridman 15:13 Man, Roseanne, you and her have been hanging out.

Michael Malice 15:16 I, I gotta... Oh my God, talk about Thanksgiving, um, when you are talking to Roseanne Barr-

Lex Fridman 15:23 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 15:23 ... and making eye contact with this person, it is... I, I can't even describe it. It's just like, "Holy crap, Roseanne Barr's talking to me." She is pa- I've said this to her face, pathologically funny. Like, it does not turn off, and you're sitting there, and you're like, "Holy crap." And when you make her laugh, which is that laugh that's in the theme song of her show, you, you feel like, "Okay, I did a mitzvah, I did something good and right in the world that I made Roseanne Barr laugh." Um, and it's also really funny because, and she's gonna hate this, 'cause I tell her she's adorable, she doesn't like that, she's little.

Lex Fridman 15:58 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 15:58 You think of Roseanne Barr as this, like, force of nature-

Lex Fridman 16:00 Yeah, big, yeah.

Michael Malice 16:00 ... like a tsunami. She's like 5'3", I'd say, like, maybe 130.

Lex Fridman 16:04 Yeah.

Michael Malice 16:04 Like, and she's this... And she puts on the sunglasses, you'd think this is a little old Jewish lady. You'd never know this is one of the most epic performers of all time. She lives near here now, so it's just so much fun talking to her. There was an old satirical magazine in the, I think, like, uh, early 2000s called Heeb.

Lex Fridman 16:22 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 16:22 Written, written by Jews, and she dressed up as Hitler for one of the photo shoots, and she was baking little men in the oven.

Lex Fridman 16:30 Oh.

Michael Malice 16:31 I got, I found it on eBay. I wanted her to sign it to, "Michael, it should have been you."

Lex Fridman 16:35 Yeah.

Michael Malice 16:36 But she signed it to, "Michael, you are one smart cookie." And now it hangs... "Love, Mom," Roseanne Barr, eh, I call her mom, and it hangs over my, uh, desk 'cause I have her, like, good domestic goddess energy flowing at me.

Lex Fridman 16:48 (inhales)

Michael Malice 16:50 What?

Lex Fridman 16:52 What do you find? What else? So Norm MacDonald?

Michael Malice 16:54 NormacDon-

Lex Fridman 16:54 I guess we've landed on that.

Michael Malice 16:55 My favorite comedian is...

Lex Fridman 16:56 We agree on something.

Michael Malice 16:57 My favorite comedian-

Lex Fridman 16:58 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 16:58 ... of all time is Neil Hamburger. So Neil Hamburger, I don't know if I'm ruining the bit, he's a character, uh, performed by this guy named Gregg Turkington. So he comes out in a tuxedo, big eyeglasses, holding three glasses of water.

Lex Fridman 17:17 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 17:18 (Coughs) Coughing into the mic.

Lex Fridman 17:20 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 17:21 And I remember I saw him once in, um, LA, and the girl ahead of me, at the table ahead of me was with her boyfriend, this basic chick, pumpkin spice. She turns to him and she goes, "What is this?" And I remember the first time he was on Jimmy Kimmel, and he tells one of his jokes, and he was like, um, uh, "Why does ET like Reese's Pieces so much? Well, that's what sperm tastes like on his home planet." And, like, no one laughs, and he goes, "Oh, come on guys, I have cancer." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 17:51 (laughs)

Michael Malice 17:51 And it just cuts to this marine in the audience with his arms crossed, um, so if you know what he's doing-

Lex Fridman 17:57 Yeah.

Michael Malice 17:57 ... it's just absolutely amazing. He opened for Tenacious D once in, uh, somewhere, uh, y- I think in Ireland or the UK, one of those, and they're booing him 'cause his jokes are often not funny. He's like, "Hey, where did my, uh, whore ex-wife run off to with that dentist she's shacking up with?"

Lex Fridman 18:16 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 18:16 "I don't know, but when I see her in court next month, Alaska."... so they're booing and he goes, "All right. Do you guys want me to bring out Tenacious D?" They're like, "Yeah! Do you wanna see Your Heroes and Mine, Tenacious D? Yeah! Come on, let me hear it! Do you wanna see Tenacious D?" He goes, "All right."

Lex Fridman 18:30 Mm.

Michael Malice 18:31 "Uh, if I tell this next joke and you don't boo me, I'll bring out Tenacious D." And it's like, uh, w- um... Oh, I'm trying to think of one that's not too, uh, um...

Lex Fridman 18:44 Self-censorship is never good.

Michael Malice 18:45 Okay. He goes, um, "Can we agree that George Bush is the worst president America's ever had?" And everyone claps. He goes, "Which makes it all the stranger that his son, George W. Bush, was in fact the best." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 18:58 I take it back on the self-censorship thing.

Michael Malice 19:00 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 19:01 (laughs)

Michael Malice 19:01 So two people laugh and he goes, "Oh, that's amazing. I guess I'll do an encore." And he did 10 more minutes. It was just, just like... I love him so much.

Lex Fridman 19:09 It's interesting that he opened for Tenacious D. Jack Black, that's a comedic genius of a different kind.

Michael Malice 19:16 Oh yeah, and he was in one of my favorite movies, uh, Jesus' Son. It's this little indie movie. Um, he did a great turn in that. He's really underrated as an actor. He's got a lot of range.

Lex Fridman 19:24 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 19:24 Like I know they t- kind of, he kind of get types cast as this kind of k- one specific type, but he's really, really talented.

Lex Fridman 19:30 But also just like the pure joy that-

Michael Malice 19:32 Yes.

Lex Fridman 19:33 ... e- and that-

Michael Malice 19:33 He's clearly having fun.

Lex Fridman 19:35 Okay. Uh, it is Thanksgiving. So in all tradition, following tradition, what are you thankful for, Michael-

Michael Malice 19:44 I got a l-

Lex Fridman 19:44 ... in this world?

Michael Malice 19:45 Do you have a list too?

Lex Fridman 19:46 No, not really.

Michael Malice 19:47 Really?

Lex Fridman 19:48 It's up in here.

Michael Malice 19:49 Oh, I mean, but d- you have several things you're thankful for.

Lex Fridman 19:51 Yes.

Michael Malice 19:52 Okay.

Lex Fridman 19:52 Yes.

Michael Malice 19:53 One of the things I'm-

Lex Fridman 19:54 My list comes from the heart. I don't have to write anything down.

Michael Malice 19:56 Well, I don't have it written down.

Lex Fridman 19:57 Okay.

Michael Malice 19:58 One of the things that I'm most thankful for, this is a common answer, but I c- I can back it up, is my family because my nephew, Lucas, is now six years old. And he... When kids have a sense of humor, it's like just miraculous. So he stole my sister's phone, his mom, figured out that grandma is listed as mom in the phone, and he calls her up and he's like, "Michael's in the hospital. He's really sick. He didn't wanna tell you." (laughs) And she's freaking out. He goes, "Prank." So I, I took him... Uh, Dinesh D'Souza just released a movie called Police State, which is actually really good.

Lex Fridman 20:36 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 20:36 Um, highly recommend it. I was surprised how much I liked it. The... 'Cause he wasn't going Republicans good, Democrats bad. It was just about authoritarianism. And he had a movie premiere at Mar-a-Lago. So I'm like, "I gotta bring Lucas to Mar-a-Lago." So Lucas is... I'm like, "We're going to the president's house." He's like, "Oh, the White House?" And I'm like, "No, no, like the, uh, former president." He goes, "Oh, Abe Lincoln?"

Lex Fridman 20:57 (laughs)

Michael Malice 20:57 And I'm like, "Okay, kid logic." Like he's- he's giving-

Lex Fridman 20:59 Yeah.

Michael Malice 20:59 ... logical answers.

Lex Fridman 21:00 Yeah.

Michael Malice 21:00 This is kinda like AI. You have to f- you have to program it to y- it's using logic correctly.

Lex Fridman 21:04 Mm-hmm. You should've told him there's a president that's second to only Abe Lincoln-

Michael Malice 21:10 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 21:10 ... in terms of greatness.

Michael Malice 21:12 (laughing) Accomplishments, yeah.

Lex Fridman 21:13 (laughs)

Michael Malice 21:13 Um, he, uh, went up to all the women in their ball gown, uh, you know, evening gowns, and he goes, "You're so beautiful. Were you born as a girl?" (laughs) And so when you have this six-year-old (laughing) asking you this, it was really, really fun. Um, so that is a great joy to have a nephew. And I have another one, Zach, who's coming up, uh, in age and he's starting to talk now. That is really, really fun for me.

Lex Fridman 21:39 Ge- getting, uh, to watch them, you know, find out abou- about the world for the first time.

Michael Malice 21:43 And also training them, like that he, he wa- he loves being funny and having fun.

Lex Fridman 21:49 You're- you're his audience in a, in a sense.

Michael Malice 21:51 Yeah, but-

Lex Fridman 21:52 'Cause you giggle and...

Michael Malice 21:54 I- I give him... He, he gave... We're prank bros. He gives me a high five. My family, and this is when... You talk about what I find funny, these are things that actually enrage me. When people, and this is such a WASP thing, don't just go with the joke or they're like, "I don't get it," or they don't understand to just go with it... I was in the car with my sister when she was like 10, 12, whatever. She's much younger than me. She's like 12 years younger. And there's this species of squid, by the way, which is asymmetric. One of its eyes is very, much bigger than the other-

Lex Fridman 22:24 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 22:24 ... 'cause it swims horizontally and so one's looking up, one's looking down, where there's more light. Uh, shout-out... If you wanna learn more about squids, go to Octonation.com.

Lex Fridman 22:32 Octonation, shout-out.

Michael Malice 22:33 Octo- octo- shout-out to Warren.

Lex Fridman 22:34 There's a lot of fascinating stuff. Octonation on Instagram.

Michael Malice 22:37 Yes. Um, I was in the car with my sister. She's like 10 or 12.

Lex Fridman 22:40 For me as a pirate, I don't... I'm sorry for the rude interruptions. I, I appreciate that comment especially.

Michael Malice 22:45 Yeah, it's a great... Yeah.

Lex Fridman 22:46 These jokes and thoughts are coming to me at a, like a ten-second delay, so I apologize.

Michael Malice 22:51 Okay.

Lex Fridman 22:51 Anyway, you were telling about the-

Michael Malice 22:53 I did where I was.

Lex Fridman 22:53 ... asymmetrical...

Michael Malice 22:54 Don't worry, I got it.

Lex Fridman 22:54 All right.

Michael Malice 22:55 Um, so I told my-

Lex Fridman 22:56 Sometimes you need help.

Michael Malice 22:57 No.

Lex Fridman 22:57 The age is getting to you.

Michael Malice 23:00 (laughs) I was, uh...

Lex Fridman 23:02 Your skin is showing it. (laughs) It's getting dark.

Michael Malice 23:06 I told my sister, I go, "When you were born, um, one of your eyes was bigger than the other and you had to have surgery to fix it."

Lex Fridman 23:13 (laughs)

Michael Malice 23:13 So she turns, she's like, "Mom," and my mom goes, "Honey, the important thing is that you're beautiful now. That's all." She's like, "What's the big deal? It was just a little surgery."

Lex Fridman 23:23 (laughs)

Michael Malice 23:23 And my sis like, "All right." Calls grandma, and grandma goes... Uh, she goes, "Michael said that when I was born, one of the eyes..." She goes, "Why is he telling you this now? It's not a big deal. You were..."

Lex Fridman 23:33 (laughs)

Michael Malice 23:33 So the fact that everyone went with this-

Lex Fridman 23:35 Oh, nice.

Michael Malice 23:36 ... was, I was so impressed. I was like, "This is a quality family in this very specific regard."

Lex Fridman 23:41 Yeah.

Michael Malice 23:41 Does your family have a sense of humor?

Lex Fridman 23:43 Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Michael Malice 23:45 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 23:46 You know, Soviet culture. There's like a dark sense of humor.

Michael Malice 23:50 Very much so.

Lex Fridman 23:50 There's wit. There's, uh...

Michael Malice 23:52 Wordplay.

Lex Fridman 23:52 Wordplay. (laughs) Uh, yeah, yeah, and especially the Russian language allows for some like-

Michael Malice 23:58 Yes.

Lex Fridman 23:58 ... um, hilarity to it, but there's also a culture of like poetry and like, uh, my dad, my mom too, but they, they remember a lot of lines from books and poems. So there's just, you can do a lot of fascinating references that add to the humor and the richness of the, of the conversation.

Michael Malice 24:18 I feel like that's a very Russian thing, like at a party or maybe at a bar or something. I don't know where you meet people. These are the, such great iced-

Lex Fridman 24:24 I never go out.

Michael Malice 24:25 I meant in Russia.I meant, these would be such good icebreakers, right? You go up to someone and goes, "Hey, did you hear this one, uh, n- nove anekdot?" And you just tell him some little story.

Lex Fridman 24:34 Did you say icebreakers 'cause it's cold in Russia?

Michael Malice 24:38 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 24:40 (laughs) I'm here all night.

Michael Malice 24:42 That's great, you never leave the house.

Lex Fridman 24:42 Literally. (laughs)

Michael Malice 24:43 So... (laughs) I feel like that's a thing.

Lex Fridman 24:47 Yeah.

Michael Malice 24:48 And that's not a thing in America. Y-

Lex Fridman 24:50 Uh, you, you mean like wit- witty banter?

Michael Malice 24:53 No. Meaning you go up to a stranger, and like that's your icebreaker. You tell them this little, little joke, and since everyone kind of has the same sensibilities, right away you guys are chatting. I don't think that's a thing here.

Lex Fridman 25:02 Yeah.

Michael Malice 25:02 Thing, here it's more small talk, which drives me crazy.

Lex Fridman 25:05 So what else are you thankful for?

Michael Malice 25:06 Well, what about, what's something you're thankful for?

Lex Fridman 25:09 Well, you went with family.

Michael Malice 25:10 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 25:10 I'm definitely thankful for family.

Michael Malice 25:12 Okay.

Lex Fridman 25:12 Yeah.

Michael Malice 25:13 How, if I may ask, how do they react to you, like you're sitting down with Elon, you're sitting down with Netanyahu, you're sitting down with all these like big, with, uh, Kanye, all these big names. Are they expressing that they're proud of you or is it more like, "Why haven't you talked to this person?"

Lex Fridman 25:29 (laughs) Yeah. More Michael Malice, please.

Michael Malice 25:32 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 25:33 (laughs)

Michael Malice 25:34 You're, you're the people's choice.

Lex Fridman 25:36 Yeah, yeah. They're, they're very proud. They've been very, they're very... I mean, but they get argumentative when we just, j- they're just like a regular human being with whom I'm close and we just argue about stuff. They're not, maybe not enough show the, being proud of. But that, that part is just the nature of our relationship, and it's also Soviet parents and...

Michael Malice 25:56 Yeah, I don't talk to my dad. That's one of the reasons, 'cause there's never ever any, um, good job. And at a certain point it's like why am I trying to l- se- seach, search for approval from someone I'm never gonna get it for, and from whom it wouldn't mean anything at this point anyway?

Lex Fridman 26:14 Well, that's interesting. I mean, there's a journey like that for a lot of people with their father or with their mother, like they're always trying to find approval.

Michael Malice 26:22 Right.

Lex Fridman 26:23 And that, that's life. For a lot of people-

Michael Malice 26:25 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 26:26 ...that's, that's a really big part of the human condition is that relationship you have with your father, with your mother. I don't know, it's a beautiful thing. So it's, whether it's been a rough childhood or a beautiful one, all of it, that's who you are. Like that, the relationship, especially early on in your life, with your father, with your mother, is like f- extremely formative.

Michael Malice 26:48 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 26:48 And so th-

Michael Malice 26:48 My dad taught me a lot of things at a young age that I'm very, very grateful for. Uh, he was, he's extremely intelligent, very flawed, and that's fine. We all are, um, except for me. Um, and it's the kind of things that when you learn things at a ripe age, and this is one of the things I like about being older, is that when I'm friends with people-

Lex Fridman 27:08 Much older.

Michael Malice 27:09 Much older. When I'm, (laughs) much, much older. When I have friends who are younger, it's very easy for me to keep them from making the mistakes I did.

Lex Fridman 27:18 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 27:18 So at least this is something I'm getting out of it is that, okay, I can't fix these mistakes, but it just takes me 30 seconds and I can pull you back from making the mistake. So he's taught me a lot as a kid. He really encouraged me very much to... He has a very good sense of humor and also very bad in some ways. Um, dad jokes, but also really funny jokes. But also, he, this love of learning.

Lex Fridman 27:40 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 27:40 Uh, he, that, I got that from him. And I mean, I s- I have got literally right, right now 98 books on my shelf to read. It's just a life... Uh, that makes me s- I remember I had a friend, and she ran into someone she went to high school with and he stopped people on the train. And he's like, "Yo, you're not in college. You don't need to read books anymore." And I was just like horrified to hear this.

Lex Fridman 28:00 Yeah. Yeah. Boy, don't I know it.

Michael Malice 28:04 I mean, uh, I mean, I, I, you, you laugh but like I, I, when you got... There's a lot of things I don't understand. When you got heat for like, "I wanna read the Western classics," to me, that, that might have been like the internet at its absolute worst.

Lex Fridman 28:21 I think, I think there's just a cynical perspective you can take, that there... This is such a simple celebration of a thing, that there must be something behind it. I think the internet, for good and bad, is just skeptical. Like, "What's behind this?"

Michael Malice 28:36 My hero, Albert Camus, and if there's one thing I would wanna fight, it's cynicism.

Lex Fridman 28:41 Yeah.

Michael Malice 28:42 Because it's such a giving up. It's such a, everything sucks. This sucks. That's suck. This sucks. Most things suck. Most stand-up comedians suck. Most movies suck. All podcasts suck.

Lex Fridman 28:53 (laughs)

Michael Malice 28:53 Um, but it, it doesn't matter.

Lex Fridman 28:55 Especially yours.

Michael Malice 28:55 Especially mine. It's, it's unwatchable.

Lex Fridman 28:58 You're welcome. He can't even spell it correctly.

Michael Malice 29:00 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 29:01 (laughs)

Michael Malice 29:02 Um...

Lex Fridman 29:03 Ah.

Michael Malice 29:03 But the stuff that's good is what matters. There, uh, who cares if 90% of movies are terrible? Like, y- they're the ones that change your life. The books, the people, the, the, the comedians, the shows, the music.

Lex Fridman 29:17 And even the terrible things have good moments, beautiful moments.

Michael Malice 29:22 Some, not all.

Lex Fridman 29:23 Your podcast being an example of not all. I've literally just, I keep listening for something good.

Michael Malice 29:30 You d-

Lex Fridman 29:31 Something good.

Michael Malice 29:31 In all fairness, none of my guests have anything to offer.

Lex Fridman 29:35 (laughs)

Michael Malice 29:35 (laughs) So it's not on me. I try.

Lex Fridman 29:37 Yeah, yeah. Well, I wish you'd talk a little less in your podcast.

Michael Malice 29:41 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 29:41 It's a little excessive. I only listen for the underwear commercials.

Michael Malice 29:46 Sheathunderwear.com, promo code Malice.

Lex Fridman 29:48 I think you did this, um, uh, I haven't seen you do it in a while, but this kinda commentary on a, on a debate or, um, I think it was with Rand, other guy, Ayn Rand debate or something like this.

Michael Malice 30:00 Oh, yeah. Malice at the Movies. I watched the video-

Lex Fridman 30:02 Malice at the Movies, yeah.

Michael Malice 30:02 ...and, and I broke it down, yeah.

Lex Fridman 30:03 That was really great. I wish you did that more.

Michael Malice 30:05 I've s- I haven't done live streaming in a long time.

Lex Fridman 30:07 Yeah.

Michael Malice 30:08 I, it was something I was doing a lot in New York, especially during COVID.

Lex Fridman 30:12 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 30:13 I feel that, um, I don't know. I'm having... I got so many projects on the plate. Uh, I'm, oh, this is something else I'm thankful for. This is something I'm very, very thankful for and I'm gonna announce it here.

Lex Fridman 30:26 Coming out of the closet finally. Go ahead.

Michael Malice 30:31 Who's the lucky guy?

Lex Fridman 30:34 (laughs)

Michael Malice 30:38 (laughs) You're the one in drag.

Lex Fridman 30:40 (laughs) Ah, guns out, guns out.

Michael Malice 30:44 He makes me-

Lex Fridman 30:44 The sleeves off.

Michael Malice 30:45 ... he makes me call him Sex Friedman.

Lex Fridman 30:46 (laughs) Ah, you like it.

Michael Malice 30:50 So (laughs) ... Like, I didn't say anything.

Lex Fridman 30:52 (laughs) All right.

Michael Malice 30:52 Didn't even imply that. When I ... In ... As you probably know, as you know, but as many people watching this also know, uh, Harvey Pekar, who had the comic book series American Splendor, was the subject of movie American Splendor. He wrote a graphic novel about me in 2006 called Ego and Hubris, which goes for like $150 on, on eBay. It's not worth it. Just download it. And I met Harvey because I wrote this screenplay about this band from the '80s called Rubber Rodeo. It's a real band. And the keyboardist, Gary Leib, who passed away, rest in peace Gary, introduced me to Harvey 'cause he did the animation for the movie. And the script's been in my desk for tw- over 20 years. And I realized, uh, thanks to my buddy Eric July, who has some huge success with his comics, I could just produce this as a graphic novel. So I've got an artist.

Lex Fridman 31:44 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 31:45 We're getting it together so I'm gonna make it happen finally. And it's some of the best writing I've ever done. I'm really proud of the story. I- it's kind of ironic reading it now because when you're a writer obviously y- different books, you put different aspects of yourself into them, right? And this story's very, very dark because basically they did all the right things and they went nowhere, right?

Lex Fridman 32:07 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 32:08 What I realized was, reading it now, that all these fears I had over 20 years ago about, "What if I'm not gonna make it? What if, you know, I'm doing all the hard work and it's still not enough?" Uh, now it's been disproven 'cause I can at least pay my rent.

Lex Fridman 32:22 Do you feel you've, like you've made it? 'Cause you said you could pay your rent.

Michael Malice 32:26 I feel that to make it is if you can pay your ... If you don't have to have a boss.

Lex Fridman 32:33 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 32:34 And you know how I really felt like I made it?

Lex Fridman 32:36 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 32:37 This is gonna sound like a joke and it's not. Uh, this is being an immigrant. I own, as you know, Margaret Thatcher's bookcases.

Lex Fridman 32:45 Yes.

Michael Malice 32:45 So to me, as an immigrant, to have her bookcases in my house, I've made it.

Lex Fridman 32:51 You're right. It's not a joke.

Michael Malice 32:53 (laughs) It's not. There's nothing funny about it at all. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 32:55 No way. (laughs)

Michael Malice 32:57 Time to get serious.

Lex Fridman 32:59 Oh, nice. Oh, now I'm more nervous.

Michael Malice 33:02 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 33:03 And aroused. Uh, so what else are you thankful for? So we're both thankful for family.

Michael Malice 33:09 You ... I mean, I'm ... The fact that I can-

Lex Fridman 33:11 Still get it up?

Michael Malice 33:12 What's that?

Lex Fridman 33:13 N- nothing. Go ahead.

Michael Malice 33:14 I think as an author-

Lex Fridman 33:17 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 33:17 ... to be able to write what you want and have of enough an audience that it covers your living.

Lex Fridman 33:25 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 33:26 That's as good as it gets as an author almost. You don't need to be Stephen King or some legend. It's like, you know, there's lots of stand-ups who aren't like world famous, but-

Lex Fridman 33:34 Yeah.

Michael Malice 33:34 ... they, they have perfectly good living. They do their gig. They do what they love. I, I feel very, very blessed. But you must be thankful for your career.

Lex Fridman 33:43 Yeah. Yeah. Career wise, but like, uh, I think the best part about it is just meeting, m- making friends-

Michael Malice 33:50 Okay.

Lex Fridman 33:50 ... with people I admire.

Michael Malice 33:52 Okay.

Lex Fridman 33:53 C- quite honestly just friends. My, you know, the people that have gotten to know me, I hide from the world sometimes. I hit some low points, especially with this new, all the new experiences. And just the people that have been there for me and haven't given up on me.

Michael Malice 34:06 You know, there's days, and I'm sure you've had this also, where like I literally don't speak to someone the whole day.

Lex Fridman 34:10 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 34:11 And in certain times in my life, it's really ... I re- I remember very vividly. I li- I was in DC in '97. I was an intern. And that summer, uh, DC closes down on the weekends. And I remember those weekends when like I got off the c- phone with like the third person, I knew there was no possibility anyone was gonna call and what that felt like. And it was dark, and it was bad. Um, so I, I remember tha- those feelings of loneliness, um, like a lot.

Lex Fridman 34:44 I still feel alone like that sometimes. You don't feel, you don't feel alone?

Michael Malice 34:50 Um, not anymore.

Lex Fridman 34:53 What's the, what's the reason you think?

Michael Malice 34:56 I ... Because I ... There's like ... I have a lot of people who I care about and who care about me, uh, spe- ... I, I mean, the thing about moving to Austin is I forgot how lonely New York got because it was like one after another I lost everybody. And at certain ... And then you start losing the places you go to. And then it was just like, "Holy crap, I'm very isolated." And here in Austin, there's not as much to do obviously as in New York, but there's a lot of people here, more people are coming all the time. Um, so if I ever want to like hang out with someone, you know, I've got a long list. Um, and these are people who I've known for a very long time, people who know me quite well so I can be myself, um, my awful, awful, awful, awful, awful self. Uh, and that is something I don't take lightly.

Lex Fridman 35:42 Now you move to Texas that's gonna secede.

Michael Malice 35:44 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 35:44 It's just a very, uh ...

Michael Malice 35:46 Do you know what happened with that?

Lex Fridman 35:47 No.

Michael Malice 35:49 I forget the guy's name and it's probably for the best. Monday, on Monday, a guy in the Texas legislature introduces a bill to have it on the referendum, to have a referendum for Texas to declare its independence.

Lex Fridman 36:03 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 36:03 Tuesday, I'm on Rogan, me and him discuss it. I give it national attention. It was also really funny because a lot of people were like, "These people have been in Texas five minutes, blah, blah." I go to the Texas legislature, meet with the guy, have a nice conversation. Month or two later, uh, unanimous I think, he gets voted, kicked out of Congress because he got an intern drunk and was inappropriate with her. A- at least it was a girl in this case. But yeah, so it's like, um, that was my little Texas independence moment.

Lex Fridman 36:37 Oh, it didn't go anywhere?

Michael Malice 36:38 It did not go anywhere.

Lex Fridman 36:39 Wow.

Michael Malice 36:41 But it's still part of the, uh, platform, the Texas Republican Party.

Lex Fridman 36:45 Yeah. It's fascinating that history is probably laden with stories like this, of failed revolutionaries. We celebrate the heroes, but then there's the losers like...

Michael Malice 36:55 Myself.

Lex Fridman 36:56 Yeah.

Michael Malice 36:56 Yeah. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 36:58 And we're gonna mark that one as a failure and edit it out. And moving on. So thankful, yeah. Friendships, right? But by the way, I wanna say just to you, I'm thankful in this lonely moment for people who write books. I've been listening to audiobooks a lot and reading a lot. I really like audiobooks actually. And just like, I don't know, I can just name random person, Serhii Plokhy, he's a historian I'm reading on the...

Michael Malice 37:28 Wait, I read him. What do you, what do you...

Lex Fridman 37:30 I just see he'd written a book most recently about the Russia-Ukraine War.

Michael Malice 37:35 He wrote another one that I read. Didn't he write about-

Lex Fridman 37:36 Empires, I think.

Michael Malice 37:37 ... the fall of the Soviet Union or something like that?

Lex Fridman 37:39 Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 37:40 Yeah. It was very, very good.

Lex Fridman 37:41 He's great. He's a true-

Michael Malice 37:42 I used him as a resource for The White Pill.

Lex Fridman 37:44 He's, uh, objective, but while still having emotion and feeling to it. Like he has a bias.

Michael Malice 37:49 That's fine.

Lex Fridman 37:50 But without, um... When, a- a lot of times when you write a story that involves Putin, people are really ideological.

Michael Malice 37:58 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 37:58 They don't really like... They don't write with the calmness and the clarity and the rigor of history. There's emotion in it, like there's almost a virtue signaling.

Michael Malice 38:09 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 38:10 And he doesn't have that, even though he is Ukrainian and has v- very strong opinions on the matter. Anyway, there's people like that and he's done incredible job researching a recent event. Uh, like he says, uh, "I was looking at everything that's been written about the war in Ukraine and realizing, you know, the old Churchill line, that historians are the worst ones to write about current events, except everybody else." And so he's like, "I- I'll might as well just write about this war." And he does an exceptional job summarizing day-by-day the details of this- this war. Anyway, so I'm just grateful for a guy like that. Uh...

Michael Malice 38:50 So for me, there's... I- I'll name some historians I love. Arthur Herman-

Lex Fridman 38:53 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 38:54 ... Victor Sebestyen is- is probably my favorite. Um, David Pietrusza, P-I-E-T-R-U-S-Z-A. When you are a historian, and I tried to do this to some degree in The White Pill-

Lex Fridman 39:06 You failed.

Michael Malice 39:06 ... as- as much as I could.

Lex Fridman 39:07 (laughs)

Michael Malice 39:07 But yeah, when you take data and you make it read like a novel, this... So you're learning about who we are as people, what had happened, but also it's entertaining and readable. That to me is like the acme of writing. And I have so much admiration-

Lex Fridman 39:25 What does acme mean?

Michael Malice 39:27 Top.

Lex Fridman 39:27 Okay.

Michael Malice 39:28 Zenith.

Lex Fridman 39:29 Zenith. Okay.

Michael Malice 39:30 Um-

Lex Fridman 39:30 Is this what writers do? They just come up with these incredibly sophisticated words? I'm impressed.

Michael Malice 39:35 Well, acme's-

Lex Fridman 39:35 'Cause you could have just said, "The best of writing."

Michael Malice 39:38 Acme is also the company in like Bugs Bunny and Wile E. Coyote. So it's Acme St- you know, Acme...

Lex Fridman 39:43 Yeah.

Michael Malice 39:43 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 39:44 Right.

Michael Malice 39:44 Like Acme Bombs. Um...

Lex Fridman 39:46 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 39:46 When they are that good, it's- it's just... I- it just- it leaves me in awe.

Lex Fridman 39:52 That's just it.

Michael Malice 39:53 Ron Chernow is another one.

Lex Fridman 39:54 Who?

Michael Malice 39:55 He wrote the Hamilton biography.

Lex Fridman 39:57 Oh, nice. Well, I- I- I have a lot of favorite historians about the whole, uh, time period of World War II.

Michael Malice 40:05 Oh.

Lex Fridman 40:05 William Shire, people that lived during it especially. I really like those accounts. O- obviously Solzhenitsyn is, uh, he's not a historian, but his accounts are-

Michael Malice 40:16 Sure.

Lex Fridman 40:16 ... fascinating. You actually... How- how much do you talk about Solzhenitsyn?

Michael Malice 40:20 Never.

Lex Fridman 40:21 Not much, right?

Michael Malice 40:23 No.

Lex Fridman 40:23 Why not?

Michael Malice 40:24 I feel like I wanted to... I- I- there's nothing I could add to him.

Lex Fridman 40:30 Oh, he's, he's the Michael Malice of the previous century?

Michael Malice 40:33 (laughs) No. He's talented, charismatic a- and- and skilled, so he's not the Michael Malice.

Lex Fridman 40:39 Mm.

Michael Malice 40:39 Uh, yeah. I- I did not, um... I feel like I didn't... I didn't read Gulag Archipelago for The White Pill. I feel-

Lex Fridman 40:47 You didn't?

Michael Malice 40:47 I didn't, no. I feel... I got a lot of it from Anne Applebaum, who's a very controversial figure. Her history books on the Soviet Union, I think are superb. But she's also accused of being very much like a Neocon and being a warmonger in contemporary times.

Lex Fridman 41:02 Oh, I see.

Michael Malice 41:02 And I think comparisons between Putin and Stalin, although there is a Venn diagram, I- I think are a bit much. Because I- I think it's very hard to claim that, you know, if Putin conquered Ukraine, that there'd be a genocide.

Lex Fridman 41:16 Yeah.

Michael Malice 41:17 I don't think... I think that's a very hard argument to make.

Lex Fridman 41:19 In these tense times, even the comparisons of what's going on in Israel on either side, comparisons to the Holocaust are also troubling in this way.

Michael Malice 41:28 Yes. And- and I also don't like how that ter- you know, I got in trouble. There was some literal demon who works at The Atlantic, and-

Lex Fridman 41:36 As opposed to a regular demon?

Michael Malice 41:38 As opposed to figurative demon.

Lex Fridman 41:40 I didn't know they employed demons. That's-

Michael Malice 41:41 They- they exclusively employ demons-

Lex Fridman 41:43 (laughs)

Michael Malice 41:43 ... at The Atlantic. And he was giving me crap, this is a couple years ago on Twitter, because I didn't think it's appropriate to refer to George Soros as a Holocaust survivor. And I'm like, "Listen, if you wanna put him in the same context as Anne Frank, knock yourself out." But I think that's so completely disingenuous and- and frankly repulsive to me, morally, to equivocate between figures like that. Um, and also to claim that anyone who is a billionaire, who is... Including Elon, including Sheldon Adelson, there's no shortage of these people. If you want to use your extreme wealth, use it to influence politics, you have to be up for criticism. A- and- and to protect people... Uh, Bill Gates. To protecting these people from criticism, just on the base of their identity is- is deranged to me.

Lex Fridman 42:35 But also the Holocaust, as a historical event, and the atrocities within it, are just singular in history.

Michael Malice 42:45 Right.

Lex Fridman 42:45 And so comparing them...

Michael Malice 42:47 ... what's the utility, right?

Lex Fridman 42:49 Yeah.

Michael Malice 42:49 You're just, you're just basically trying to take this brand, I'm using that term in a, in a very specific way, and latch it ... Like when they say, uh, climate denial, no one's denying climate exists, so you're just trying to go off of Holocaust denial. I think it's shameless. And I think it's, it's, it's gross.

Lex Fridman 43:04 And it cheapens everything.

Michael Malice 43:05 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 43:06 Because there's deep important lessons about the Holocaust.

Michael Malice 43:09 Yes.

Lex Fridman 43:10 To me, the lessons are about how extreme it can get.

Michael Malice 43:15 And how fast.

Lex Fridman 43:17 Yeah, and how fast.

Michael Malice 43:17 That's the one. So, you know, people ask, "Oh, are humans basically good? Are they basically evil?" I always say they're basically animals. And I think people are ... Most people are almost fundamentally deranged, and that there's basically this veneer of civilization and decency, and when shit hits the fan, and we see this over and over, they do things that would have been completely unthinkable even to themselves five years ago.

Lex Fridman 43:46 Most people are fundamentally deranged with a veneer of civility.

Michael Malice 43:50 There's a show called, um-

Lex Fridman 43:52 I think I disagree with that.

Michael Malice 43:53 What's the show called? I'm having Alzheimer's because of the advanced age.

Lex Fridman 43:58 The age. The skincare is just-

Michael Malice 43:59 I think you should ... There's a, there's a show called I Think You Should Leave. It's a sketch comedy show.

Lex Fridman 44:03 I Think You Should Leave. Okay, sorry.

Michael Malice 44:04 It's a sketch comedy show. And he captures (laughs) these great ... How's your hair, princess?

Lex Fridman 44:10 (laughs) .

Michael Malice 44:10 He captures these great moments of just the f- like, just the very thin veneer of normalcy-

Lex Fridman 44:18 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 44:18 ... and just the craziness that's so frequently lurking underneath. Another great example of this when this is the only people who are literally crazy, have you ever seen the show Hoarders?

Lex Fridman 44:27 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Malice 44:27 So every episode of Hoarders, every ... There's two, usually two people in every episode, but every episode has the same plot line.

Lex Fridman 44:33 (laughs) .

Michael Malice 44:33 Veneer of normalcy, veneer of normalcy, veneer of normalcy, slight expression of concern, (laughs) full-blown derangement.

Lex Fridman 44:41 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 44:41 And it always follows that exact pattern.

Lex Fridman 44:44 Yeah. I don't know. I think the deep ocean of the human mind is, is good. Like there's a longing to be good to others.

Michael Malice 44:56 I have seen literally no evidence of this. And I know everything's the deep ocean with you people, but like-

Lex Fridman 45:01 (laughs)

Michael Malice 45:01 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 45:01 What do you mean you people?

Michael Malice 45:02 Pirates.

Lex Fridman 45:04 Oh.

Michael Malice 45:05 I don't see it. You, you-

Lex Fridman 45:07 What's that, Mr. Parrot?

Michael Malice 45:08 (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 45:09 You an anti-Semite?

Michael Malice 45:12 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 45:12 No, that's not nice to say, (laughs) , in front of such a large audience. You're embarrassing me, Mr. Parrot.

Michael Malice 45:18 Lex, you have-

Lex Fridman 45:19 What's that, Mr. Parrot?

Michael Malice 45:20 You, you have s-

Lex Fridman 45:21 He's, he's a run-of-the-mill troll and barely an intellectual? That's not nice to say. That's not true. We talked about this. You have to see the good in people.

Michael Malice 45:31 You have seen personally-

Lex Fridman 45:33 Yeah.

Michael Malice 45:34 ... how quickly and easily it is for human beings to form out-groups.

Lex Fridman 45:40 Yeah.

Michael Malice 45:40 And to just read others just as, as I just did a minute ago with The Atlantic, completely out of the human race. And that happens constantly and very easily. Humans are tribal beings. So that does not ... I don't see how that's compatible with this essential desire to do good.

Lex Fridman 45:58 No, I, I think it's like in 1984, the two minutes of hate. There is a part of humans that wants to be tribal-

Michael Malice 46:07 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 46:07 ... and wants to direct, get angry and hateful, and then that hate is easy to direct.

Michael Malice 46:13 Yes.

Lex Fridman 46:13 By especially people as you, uh, as an anarchist talk about, there are people in power that-

Michael Malice 46:19 Yes.

Lex Fridman 46:19 ... direct that anger. But I think if you just look at recent human history, the desire for good, the communal desire for good outweighs that I think. Like most of life on Earth right now, people are being good to each other, in a, in a most fundamental sense relative to how nature usually works.

Michael Malice 46:40 I, I ... Okay, I think you're both wrong about people and about nature. So nature is not inherently violent in the sense like, uh, for example, if anyone has an aquarium or if you look at wildlife, yeah, you're gonna have predator, prey, but these animals are gonna be coexisting and they're gonna be ignoring each other for the most part, right?

Lex Fridman 46:59 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 46:59 And as for humans, you know, being essentially good, I think humans are essentially, not to each other you said, I think they're essentially civil and amiable, but that's not really being good.

Lex Fridman 47:12 Good, I think is a thing that's gets illustrated when you're challenged when there's difficult situations going on.

Michael Malice 47:17 Yes. Exactly, yes.

Lex Fridman 47:17 I mean, civility is a good starting point, and then when there's a big challenge that comes, people step up on average.

Michael Malice 47:26 I completely agree with you that human beings are capable of such profound goodness that it kinda makes you l- extremely emotional. And I, I certainly think that that's true, but I think that that's more unusual than it is the norm.

Lex Fridman 47:42 I see beauty everywhere.

Michael Malice 47:43 So do I, but that doesn't mean it's in every person.

Lex Fridman 47:46 Not in every person, but in most people. I think ... I mean, I wish there was a really good way to measure this. My general sense of the world is just there's so much incredible both in terms of economics, in terms of art, in terms of just creation as, as a whole that's happened over the past century that it feels like the good is outpowering the bad.

Michael Malice 48:09 You just did the perfect segue-

Lex Fridman 48:13 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 48:14 ... to the box.

Lex Fridman 48:16 What's in the box?

Michael Malice 48:18 So-

Lex Fridman 48:18 Is it your fragile ego?

Michael Malice 48:21 That's my ... You stole my joke. You stole my joke. That was the joke I made at you before we recorded.

Lex Fridman 48:26 (laughs) .

Michael Malice 48:27 You stole my joke.

Lex Fridman 48:28 No, no I didn't. I, uh, I write all your material. You hack.

Michael Malice 48:31 (laughs) So as you know, I have a lot of beautiful stuff in my house-

Lex Fridman 48:38 Yes.

Michael Malice 48:39 ... because I think it's something very important. Everyone listening, if you accomplish something that is great, uh, some achievement, what I like to do is buy myself something to remember that moment because sometimes when it's-... hard, you forget you've done great things in your life. You've had accomplishments. Doesn't have to be some amazing factory, it could just be, like, my first job where I got a raise, or, you know what, I, I... E- anything. So there's this amazing sculptor named Jake Michael Singer, a singer who's a sculptor. And I saw a piece of his.

Lex Fridman 49:18 How's his singing voice? This is a joke song. I, I think we're gonna cross that-

Michael Malice 49:23 Hold on. I can go somewhere with this.

Lex Fridman 49:24 Okay. All right.

Michael Malice 49:25 How's his singing voice?

Lex Fridman 49:26 Do you want me to write your joke for you?

Michael Malice 49:27 Yeah. What's the punchline?

Lex Fridman 49:30 Um...

Michael Malice 49:30 Hard!

Lex Fridman 49:32 (laughs)

Michael Malice 49:32 (laughs) There it is. That's

Lex Fridman 49:33 That's what she said.

Michael Malice 49:35 So I followed him on Instagram. He followed me back.

Lex Fridman 49:40 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 49:41 And he's like, "If I made..." He says, "What's the point of being an artist if the work I create isn't in the spaces of people I like and admire?" He's a big fan of yours. You've given him... And our episodes together give him joy. So he said, "If I get a sculp... Make Lex a sculpture, will he put it on the shelf behind him?" And what that reminded me of is when I was a kid, uh, you read Batman comics and there's the Batcave. And the Batcave has all this cool stuff in it. I didn't realize until much later that all of those things in the Batcave had an origin story.

Lex Fridman 50:21 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 50:21 So the giant penny, the dinosaur, there was actually a story where that came from. So if you're a fan of a show, you can spot, "Oh, this is when this appeared. This is when that appeared. This is when that appeared." So he made you this sculpture. Uh, he lives in Turkey. Um, and it's called Chance Murmur. And it is... I haven't even seen it yet. It is absolutely beautiful.

Lex Fridman 50:41 All right, this... So you wanna do a little unboxing?

Michael Malice 50:44 Yes.

Lex Fridman 50:45 Okay. Uh, ax or... body spray?

Michael Malice 50:51 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 50:51 (laughs) All right.

Michael Malice 50:54 Let's do it.

Lex Fridman 50:55 Let's unbox.

Michael Malice 50:56 I'm so excited. He likes his out of the box.

Lex Fridman 51:02 (laughs)

Michael Malice 51:02 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 51:02 You know, uh, that Steven Seagal movie where there's like a stripper that comes out of the box?

Michael Malice 51:07 Is there?

Lex Fridman 51:08 Uh, Under Siege.

Michael Malice 51:09 Oh, okay.

Lex Fridman 51:09 He's on a boat. You're not an action film guy.

Michael Malice 51:14 No.

Lex Fridman 51:19 One. What does the pirate say when he turns 80?

Michael Malice 51:24 What?

Lex Fridman 51:25 Aye, matey.

Michael Malice 51:29 Aye, matey. Oh.

Lex Fridman 51:31 (laughs)

Michael Malice 51:32 Oh.

Lex Fridman 51:33 See, that's how I know you don't like humor.

Michael Malice 51:35 I just don't like pirates.

Lex Fridman 51:37 Well, your mom does. Do you play any musical instruments?

Michael Malice 51:40 No. Neither do you. I've seen your guitar videos. Ha!

Lex Fridman 51:46 Okay. Here's a big piece of wood for you. That's what it feels like, just so you know.

Michael Malice 51:53 Oh, wow.

Lex Fridman 51:54 Need help?

Michael Malice 51:57 Oh my God.

Lex Fridman 52:00 This traveled across the world.

Michael Malice 52:05 So here's why his work speaks so much to me. So first of all, he's combining so many different references. It's Nike, the goddess of victory, right? It's that, it looks like an angel as well. Um, the Italian futurists, which is my favorite art movement, from the early 20th century, they tried to capture motion in 2D or 3D form.

Lex Fridman 52:31 Well, Jake, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for creating beautiful things.

Michael Malice 52:38 And I-

Lex Fridman 52:38 Thank you for caring about somebody like me and somebody like Michael. I really feel the love.

Michael Malice 52:43 That's the other thing here-

Lex Fridman 52:44 Thank you.

Michael Malice 52:45 ... when you have something that matters to you in your house and you're having a bad day, you can look at it and remember, you know what I mean, that spirit of joy. And I actually have a list here.

Lex Fridman 52:58 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 52:58 Okay, I've got a little rant ready. You wanna hear my rant?

Lex Fridman 53:00 Yeah, let's go. You, you're...

Michael Malice 53:02 One of the things that drives me crazy is when people, especially conservatives, think that all contemporary art is ugly or abstract or like literally garbage.

Lex Fridman 53:13 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 53:14 And there's a lot of that. But so much of the stuff out there in galleries is not only not crazy expensive, but they're trying to sell things for people in their house. And these are young artists, you know, they're trying to add beauty. I have a list, so if you don't believe me and you think all contemporary art is garbage or terrible, go to the website at any of these places that I'm gonna rattle off-

Lex Fridman 53:35 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 53:35 ... look through them, and you're telling me that, that it's not about creating beauty and joy and things in people's lives. So I don't have any relationship with any of these people. These are just some galleries I follow on Instagram. Outre Gallery, Antler Gallery, Giant Robot 2, Binart. I don't know how to pronounce, I'm sorry. B-A... B-I-A-N-A-R-T. Spoke Art Gallery, Var Gallery in Milwaukee, I was there. The pieces were not expensive at all.

Lex Fridman 53:58 W- what kind of art are we talking about? Everything? Paintings?

Michael Malice 54:00 Mostly paintings, mostly paintings. Some sculptures too, like this. Cory Helford is my favorite one in LA. Night Gallery, Vertikal Gallery, Avant Gallery, Hive Gallery, Haven Gallery, and Curio Art Gallery. I'm telling you, uh, it's not exorbitant. This is not the kind of thing where you have to go to a museum and be like, "This doesn't make sense to me." You look at it right away, you're like, "Okay, I know what this is," and it's beautiful, it's awesome. Um, and you're supporting someone who's young and creative trying to do something and make the world a better place. So I'm a big fan of the contemporary art scene. A lot of it is not great, but even the stuff that's not great is very rarely disgusting or gross. It's just like, "Okay, I've seen this before," or something like that.

Lex Fridman 54:43 Okay.

Michael Malice 54:44 There's... It's like the difference between... there's like a standup where like I'll pay money for the ticket and someone's like, who's an opener, it's like, I wouldn't pay to see him perform, but he sure still made me laugh. That person is still more, by far, more good than bad. So a lot of this art isn't stuff I would own.... but it's like, okay, I get it. I like it.

Lex Fridman 55:01 Well, as the analogy goes, I- I really like going to open mics actually, because, like, fun, it sounds absurd to say, but funny isn't the only thing that's beautiful about standup comedy. It's the act- (laughs) .

Michael Malice 55:14 The acting.

Lex Fridman 55:15 (laughs) . The, it's- it's going for it. It's trying to be funny. It's taking the leap, trying the joke, and some of the best stuff is actually funny, but the audience is like three people, two of whom are drunk and bored, and you're still going for it. And that's like, that's the human spirit right there.

Michael Malice 55:35 Roseanne was telling me how Gilbert Gottfried would go on, it was like three in the morning, and it was like five, her and like three other comics in the audience, and like they all were just dying.

Lex Fridman 55:46 Yeah.

Michael Malice 55:46 Like he was just killing them. Who's your favorite comedian?

Lex Fridman 55:51 Um...

Michael Malice 55:53 Dave Smith?

Lex Fridman 55:54 Who? And cut scene. Favorite comedian. Well, first, on Norman MacDonald, if you like put a gun to my head and I had to answer really quickly, that would be him.

Michael Malice 56:04 Okay.

Lex Fridman 56:07 I would also say L- uh, Louis C.K.

Michael Malice 56:09 Oh wow, yeah. Oh my God, yes.

Lex Fridman 56:12 But that's almost like a vanilla answer at this moment in- in history because it's like, uh...

Michael Malice 56:16 Louis C.K.'s pretty radioactive.

Lex Fridman 56:18 He is. Well, yeah. He does it, the tough topics-

Michael Malice 56:21 Sure.

Lex Fridman 56:22 ... the best. Mitch Hedberg, the wit of a- a good one-liner. It's great. I guess that's what Norman MacDonald was a genius at.

Michael Malice 56:30 Yes.

Lex Fridman 56:31 What about you?

Michael Malice 56:33 There's no, I mean, we're so fortunate to be here in Austin because that Comedy Mothership, you go there and like people are just killing it. David Lucas is amazing, Ty Rivera-

Lex Fridman 56:43 He is great.

Michael Malice 56:44 Ty Rivera probably did the best set I've seen since I've been here in Austin. And I- I watched him, and I'm like, "This guy's even, like even bitchier than I am." (laughs) . So I reached out to him. Um, so he's just terrific. David Lucas is another one, a buddy of mine. Um-

Lex Fridman 56:57 You just said a twice, I think.

Michael Malice 56:59 Um, I'm thinking, Dave Landau, excuse me.

Lex Fridman 57:01 Yeah.

Michael Malice 57:01 Dave Landau. Um, Joe Mackey.

Lex Fridman 57:03 Old age catching up.

Michael Malice 57:04 It's true though.

Lex Fridman 57:05 It's true.

Michael Malice 57:06 It's true.

Lex Fridman 57:07 It's true.

Michael Malice 57:07 (laughs) Dave Lucas.

Lex Fridman 57:10 (laughs) You ever been to the Comedy Mothership?

Michael Malice 57:11 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 57:11 It's a great p- (laughs) it's a great spot.

Michael Malice 57:13 Where is that? Is that in Austin?

Lex Fridman 57:15 Austin? Is that where Willie Nelson is from? I haven't really... Go ahead.

Michael Malice 57:19 Oh, I heard a joke about that, uh, y- the other week. What's the-

Lex Fridman 57:23 Go ahead, tell the, tell the joke again.

Michael Malice 57:25 What's the only thing worse than giving head to Willie Nelson?

Lex Fridman 57:31 What?

Michael Malice 57:32 If he says, "I'm not Willie Nelson." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 57:36 (laughs) What's that Mr. Parrot? I know he's not funny. He's better, he's- he thinks he's better on Twitter. But that's not nice to say in, right in front of his face.

Michael Malice 57:46 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 57:46 (laughs) J- just think how he feels.

Michael Malice 57:48 (laughs) The statue's chance murmur is judging you.

Lex Fridman 57:52 Chance.

Michael Malice 57:52 It's called chance murmur.

Lex Fridman 57:54 Chance murmur.

Michael Malice 57:55 God, that's so beautiful.

Lex Fridman 57:56 That's gorgeous.

Michael Malice 57:58 This is, uh, this is another reason I hate cynicism, and I talk about this a lot.

Lex Fridman 58:01 (laughs)

Michael Malice 58:02 Even just on Etsy, there's so many small, not huge companies, like individual artisans who are creating great stuff, um, and just making it happen. And it's really sad for me when people can't see that. Or if they're like-

Lex Fridman 58:16 Yeah.

Michael Malice 58:16 ... "Well, how could I be excited about a sculpture when blah, blah, blah, the Middle East?" And it's just like, y- you can always look for an excuse not to look for joy.

Lex Fridman 58:24 Yeah.

Michael Malice 58:24 Or you could look for an excuse to look for joy.

Lex Fridman 58:26 Yeah, Etsy's incredible. I- I feel the same way about on- (laughs) -

Michael Malice 58:29 OnlyFans?

Lex Fridman 58:30 ... OnlyFans. (laughs) I- I can't even get that out of my mouth before laughing at my own failed joke.

Michael Malice 58:34 That's what she said.

Lex Fridman 58:35 I did- oh.

Michael Malice 58:38 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 58:38 Uh, all right. That might be one of the first that's what she said from Michael Malice.

Michael Malice 58:43 (laughs) Yeah.

Lex Fridman 58:43 I'm gonna count that. Um...

Michael Malice 58:48 (laughs) I don't know what I'm gonna do with mine, 'cause I got my own. Mine's three feet tall, just like me.

Lex Fridman 58:52 Your box was much bigger.

Michael Malice 58:53 Yeah. Uh-

Lex Fridman 58:54 And it was giving me an inferiority complex.

Michael Malice 58:56 Uh-

Lex Fridman 58:57 I think I'm gonna invade Russia.

Michael Malice 58:58 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 59:02 (laughs) That's a Napoleon reference... for those in the audience.

Michael Malice 59:07 Um, I don't know if I'm gonna-

Lex Fridman 59:09 Yeah.

Michael Malice 59:10 I think I'm gonna put it in my bedroom, so it's the first thing I see when I wake up.

Lex Fridman 59:13 Put it in the bedroom?

Michael Malice 59:14 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 59:15 Uh, do we get through everything we're thankful for?

Michael Malice 59:19 No, I've got lots of things I'm thankful for.

Lex Fridman 59:20 What else? Friends, family. We said books.

Michael Malice 59:26 I'm thankful for career. I'm thankful for, I am thankful for... And I know people are gonna lose their minds, and I can hear them flipping out already.

Lex Fridman 59:36 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 59:37 I am thankful for social media.

Lex Fridman 59:40 Yeah.

Michael Malice 59:41 I'm thankful for several reasons. First, it is a way for people to make connections that they couldn't have made in years past.

Lex Fridman 59:47 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 59:48 That if you've got some weird hobby, you can find that other person with a weird hobby and you make that connection. It's a great way to stay in touch permanently, for people otherwise you'd lose touch with, you know, at- at whatever venue. And it's also a great way to expose, uh, corporate depravity. When you have these organizations that are dishonest, I think the community notes thing on Twitter is the greatest thing ever.

Lex Fridman 1:00:09 Yeah, it's incredible. I wish they would pay the, um, uh, attention to Michael Malice account more often.

Michael Malice 1:00:14 (laughs) You shouldn't be encouraging anyone to pay attention to my Twitter account.

Lex Fridman 1:00:18 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:00:18 It's a dumpster fire. And I- e- it- it, and I don't mean Bridget, I mean like literal Bridget Phetasy.

Lex Fridman 1:00:23 Oh, Bridget, by the way is amazing. But your Twitter account-

Michael Malice 1:00:25 She lives here.

Lex Fridman 1:00:25 ... makes... Yes. Uh, not here. She's-

Michael Malice 1:00:28 She's-

Lex Fridman 1:00:28 I wish she did.

Michael Malice 1:00:29 She's in Georgetown.

Lex Fridman 1:00:30 No, I mean in- in this, where we're- where we're sitting.

Michael Malice 1:00:32 Oh.

Lex Fridman 1:00:32 It's a joke, Michael.

Michael Malice 1:00:33 Is it?

Lex Fridman 1:00:34 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:00:34 But I- I'm just really glad about, uh, it's another way for people who before would have felt very alone. I know it makes, uh, some people do feel alone, but it's, uh, for other people it makes them feel connected.

Lex Fridman 1:00:45 Uh, there's been a- a lot of talk about anti-Semitism recently.

Michael Malice 1:00:49 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:00:49 What's- what's your sense about this? Like, is there... Is anti-Semitism like any other brand of hate? There's a lot of hate out there, or is this-

Michael Malice 1:00:57 No, I don't think it's like any other brand of hate.... because I don't think, um, racists, or transphobes, or homophobes, or misogynists, or xenophobes argue openly or even not so openly for the killing of Black Americans, transgender people, gay people, women, or immigrants. And it's not only something that's talked about, it's something that has actually happened. And not just the Holocaust, but just centuries of pogroms, right? There's this great book that I read many years ago called The Satanization of the Jews. Camille Paglia recommended it and I read it. And they live in this, this certain specific kind of antisemitism, and I, um, again, I'm not talking about people who are against Israel or something. I'm talking specifically about Jew hatred. They have this moral calculus that Jews are the only people who are capable of good or evil, and Jews are exclusively capable of evil. And for example, if you look at the George W. Bush White House, you had W, you had Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Colin Powell, Donald Rumsfeld, a lot of these new, neocon advisors. So if there's 10 people in a room and there's one Jewish person, it's his fault and the rest are Jew controlled. So again, they, they only exist as a puppet of Jews in this kind of worldview, and it's like that... To me, if there were no Jews on Earth, it is crazy to say that John Bolton, and Liz Cheney, and Lindsey Graham wouldn't be pushing for more war. That makes no sense to me. It's like you blame the Jews when bad things happen, but when a Jewish person does some- something good, it doesn't really matter or just wait, he's g- he's gonna do something bad. Well, yeah, that's true. Human beings (laughs) do good things and then they do bad things sometimes, but it only counts when that Jewish person does the bad thing.

Lex Fridman 1:02:58 I wonder what's a way to fight antisemitism and fight hate in general.

Michael Malice 1:03:02 I think the only, or the best way, 'cause I thought a lot about this, about how did gay Americans go from being universally hated and despised to the point that many people in the '80s went to their graves, those who had AIDS, without even telling their parents 'cause they were so scared, to now Times Square-

Lex Fridman 1:03:24 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:03:24 ... is just covered in pride flags.

Lex Fridman 1:03:26 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:03:26 And I think, and this, this also works for Islamophobia and some of these other bigotry, is what I call the ambassador program, because as soon as you know someone who is a member of a certain group, it is a lot harder to be bigoted against them, because instead of this being this out group that's somewhere out there, it's like, wait a minute, I work with this guy. Yeah, he's kind of a jerk and maybe he sees things a little differently than me, but this guy is not a horrible human being. So I think the only way to fight any form of bigotry is to be a good example of the counter to these, um, whatever archetype or stereotype is in the culture.

Lex Fridman 1:04:13 Karl Marx wrote that, "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of a soulless condition. It is the opium of the people," as the famous phrase goes. Do you think he has a point?

Michael Malice 1:04:26 No, I hate that quote. I absolutely hate it.

Lex Fridman 1:04:29 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:04:29 I despise this sort of Reddit internet atheist activism for the simple reason that I know many people who, in finding faith, have become objectively better human beings.

Lex Fridman 1:04:46 Yeah. Me too.

Michael Malice 1:04:46 They start living consciously. They take morality seriously. They try... We, we all fail, to be moral, good people. So this sneering that these mid-wits, these marginally intelligent people have towards religious people. Now, lots of religious people use religion to rationalize their bad behavior or, uh, you know, sinful or big egos, so on and so forth. That exists. That's true. But to say that it never helps anyone and it's universally the o- See, Marx was talking about a period, uh, you know, and I'll defend his quote, when his argument was, you know, the masses are being starved and oppressed, but they're promised, don't worry, you'll have riches in heaven. So you should kind of like-

Lex Fridman 1:05:35 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:05:35 ... let yourself be pushed around now, and this is kind of this BS bargain that the people are being given, so that was, I think, the point he was making. It's not... It certainly doesn't apply, uh, um, nowadays. Um, I, I've, I have a close to the family in the Midwest. They're good Christian people. I remember very specifically this guy, shout out to him, Sean Sherard. I went to college with him, uh, David Lucas. Um, and-

Lex Fridman 1:06:01 Have you checked out the comedy Mothership? Great, great club.

Michael Malice 1:06:03 Where is it? Is it Austin? Um-

Lex Fridman 1:06:05 Willie Nelson.

Michael Malice 1:06:06 And I, you know, I was 17, 18 freshman year, uh, and I was reading all this criticism of the Bible and I was like, "Look, this is in there. Look at this in there." And he put his hand on my shoulder and he says, "Michael, there's nothing you're gonna tell me that's going to make me lose my faith." And that was a very, uh, self-aware and profound thing to say. As I've gotten older and I know lots of religious people, there's no part of me that, um, thinks they're wrong or they should be mocked. It's like, it, it also reminds me of when people sneer at, uh, addicts in recovery. They're like, "Alcoholism is a disease," it's a choice. It's like, wait a minute. You don't know what it's like to have your entire life ruined by drugs or alcohol.

Lex Fridman 1:06:48 Yes.

Michael Malice 1:06:49 And if you have to tell yourself, you know, I have this disease and blah, blah, blah, and that keeps you from drinking, and now you're a moral upstanding person who's reliable and takes responsibility for their actions-I, I, I, I, don't see the harm at all. So I, I think this kind of activist atheism is, uh, cheap. I, I don't agree with it whatsoever and I, I do not like that quote at all.

Lex Fridman 1:07:12 Uh, but otherwise, big fan of Marx?

Michael Malice 1:07:14 (laughs) I mean, i- i- it's ... I, I think ... There's a fan of mine, I forget who it was, apologies. He had this great quote. He goes, "The ga-" And this is me talking. He goes, "The games people play to f- to feel smarter than others is, uh, depressing and annoying." And I think this kind of fedora internet atheism is a good example. 'Cause here's the other thing. If you've proven that someone else is stupid, that doesn't mean you're smart. You could both be stupid.

Lex Fridman 1:07:40 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:07:40 So congrats, you proved someone else is stupid. Who cares?

Lex Fridman 1:07:43 Yeah. And sneering in all forms-

Michael Malice 1:07:45 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:07:45 ... in general, is just not ... great.

Michael Malice 1:07:48 That's one of the things I block out people on social media instantly. You're not gonna sneer at me in MySpace. You can sneer at me all you want in your space, but I'm not putting up with your crap. I don't know you.

Lex Fridman 1:07:57 MySpace, great social network.

Michael Malice 1:08:00 (laughs) Is that on, uh, s- on six dat- s- 6th, 6th Street?

Lex Fridman 1:08:04 AOL.com.

Michael Malice 1:08:06 Mee-do-do-do-do-do-do-wang-clang-clang. (laughs) That's how Lex comes.

Lex Fridman 1:08:11 (laughs)

Michael Malice 1:08:12 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:08:12 Like Pavlov's dog. That was the sound before you get to see, spend 10 minutes waiting for an image of a lady load.

Michael Malice 1:08:23 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:08:23 One line at a time.

Michael Malice 1:08:24 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:08:25 Chhshh. Chhshh-chhh. (sighs) Uh, I recently talked to, uh, John Mearsheimer. I don't know if you know him at all. (book closes) . Uh, so he has this idea about, uh, offensive realism. It's a way to analyze the world into national relations. And, uh, the basic idea, and I'll run it by you and see what you think, is that, um, states, nations want to survive, and they try to do so by maximizing power, military power. And he talks about anarchy quite a bit in that s- one of the s- underlying assumptions of this way of viewing the world is that states are anarchic towards each other.

Michael Malice 1:09:10 Yes, that's true.

Lex Fridman 1:09:11 And they operate under a lot of uncertainty. States can not be sure that other states will not use military capabilities against them.

Michael Malice 1:09:18 Right.

Lex Fridman 1:09:19 They want to survive and they want to use military power to, uh, control the uncertainty, to protect themselves.

Michael Malice 1:09:29 So I, I com- I disagree in that regard, and I s- I see on your bookshelf. Uh, I think the world is a lot closer to Brave New World than it is to 1984. And I think it is ... If you look at, let's suppose, China's influence in America, right?

Lex Fridman 1:09:45 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:09:45 The influence is far more through soft power than military power. China doesn't threaten America through, you know, "We're gonna kill you." It's more like their infiltration of universities, TikTok, things of that nature. Maybe this would've worked before the pop culture era, but I think one of the reasons we have this kind of American hegemony isn't just a function of American military. I think it's much more a function of American popular culture. When you're exporting ideas and culture, it makes other people in other countries feel closer to you, and also feel ... Regard you as a s- as a friend, and also to adopt your value. It's a great way to spread propaganda.

Lex Fridman 1:10:28 It seems to correlate though, right? It's interesting. It's an interesting idea, what has more power, the viral spread of ideas or the, the power of the military? It s- it seems that United States is, uh, at the top of the world on both.

Michael Malice 1:10:44 That's true.

Lex Fridman 1:10:45 And so it's hard to, uh, disentangle the two.

Michael Malice 1:10:48 Let's look at Europe. American culture is very popular in Europe in many ways, right?

Lex Fridman 1:10:54 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:10:55 Like the best music comes out of Sweden, Swedish indie pop. They're singing in English, you know, even though ... S- so on and so forth. None of this is a function ... Maybe it's a function of post-World War II to some extent, but I don't think it's a function of American bases there. I think it's a function of we're exporting our music, our TV shows and our movies.

Lex Fridman 1:11:14 Yeah. It's interesting. If the battleground will be brave new world battle of ideas.

Michael Malice 1:11:18 I think it's clearly brave new ... I, I, I, I, I'm ... It's so much cheaper - and again, this is one of the dark sides of social media - to use influence than it is to use threats. I don't think ... I think COVID is a good example of this.

Lex Fridman 1:11:31 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:11:31 Like so much of the pressure ... Yes, there was authoritarianism, but it was the fact that everyone bought into it, rightly or wrongly. But the vast majority of the population was behind all of these things. And that was through persuasion, not 'cause ... And 'cause people are begging for it to come back in many cases.

Lex Fridman 1:11:47 Mm-hmm. So who's funding you? Which intelligence agency?

Michael Malice 1:11:50 Assad.

Lex Fridman 1:11:50 Assad. Assad. This is how you do great interviewing. See, he didn't even expect that. (laughs) Okay.

Michael Malice 1:12:01 (laughs) What's that, Mr. Parrot? (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:12:03 (laughs) What's that, Mr. Parrot? (laughs) You knew it. But you didn't have any documentation, did you?

Michael Malice 1:12:10 I think Mr. Parrot is threatened by the bea- better wings-

Lex Fridman 1:12:14 (laughs)

Michael Malice 1:12:14 ... by Chance Murmur.

Lex Fridman 1:12:16 He gets like that when he's turned on.

Michael Malice 1:12:17 Oh, okay.

Lex Fridman 1:12:17 He's that threatened. He can't wait until he's, uh, all three of us are alone together. It's gonna be one hell of a party.

Michael Malice 1:12:25 Beaks and f- feathers everywhere. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:12:27 And metal.

Lex Fridman 1:12:31 Yeah, this thing is beautiful.

Michael Malice 1:12:32 It's ridiculous.

Lex Fridman 1:12:34 You have, you have actually a lot of really cool stuff at your, at your place.

Michael Malice 1:12:37 It's so fun.

Lex Fridman 1:12:38 What, um, what's a, what's a cool thing that stands out to you? Maybe a recent addition?

Michael Malice 1:12:44 So I went to the Dallas Museum of Art last year for my birthday, and there was a painting I liked.

Lex Fridman 1:12:53 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:12:53 And I Googled it and I saw the auction for that exact painting, and it was like, I think three grand, which is not cheap, but not something you'd think ... You think in a museum, I can never afford something like this, right?

Lex Fridman 1:13:04 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:13:05 So when I was in, um-I went to Houston with some friends, the Sideserfs. Uh, Natalie, who made that cake of you.

Lex Fridman 1:13:15 Oh, yeah. Cake, um, terrified my mom.

Michael Malice 1:13:17 Did, did it?

Lex Fridman 1:13:18 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:13:18 Aw.

Lex Fridman 1:13:19 No, it's not the cake that terrified my mom. It's you, Michael Malice, cutting it off.

Michael Malice 1:13:24 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:13:24 Cutting the face off, and laughing maniacally. (laughs)

Michael Malice 1:13:30 Well, N- Natalie's pregnant. She's gonna have a daughter named Daisy. So congrats to Natalie.

Lex Fridman 1:13:35 Oh, Congrats to Natalie.

Michael Malice 1:13:35 But I was in the museum with them, and there was a statue of Thoth, who's the Egyptian god whose head is an ibis. It's a bird with a long beak. And Thoth is the god of the moon, god of knowledge, and supposedly, he invented writing.

Lex Fridman 1:13:50 Hmm.

Michael Malice 1:13:51 So I thought, you know what? I've always loved ancient Egypt, I know a lot about it, and especially the mythology. It'd be really cool, as an aspiring author, to have an ancient Egyptian Thoth statue in my house.

Lex Fridman 1:14:03 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:14:04 Well, it turned out that the Egyptians also killed and mummified ibises, and buried them with scribes. And a week after I went to the museum, there was an auction for an ibis mummy.

Lex Fridman 1:14:18 (laughs)

Michael Malice 1:14:18 And I have it now in my house, still in its bandages, overlooking my desk, and we all know it's gonna come to life and peck out my eyes-

Lex Fridman 1:14:27 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:14:27 ... and write with my blood. But that is one of the recent cool additions. Another thing I have, which is, like, in terms of, "Holy crap, I've made it." Uh, I have, uh, an original Patrick Nagel painting. And if people don't know the name, he's, like, the '80s artist. Uh, he did the Duran Duran cover. We'd never see him in nail salons. I have a male, which were very rare for him to do. Um, so that's two of my kind of favorite pieces.

Lex Fridman 1:14:49 He did what?

Michael Malice 1:14:49 He only drew, drew women predominantly. I have one where he drew a male, like a, it was a guy in a, like, a jean hat or something.

Lex Fridman 1:14:55 Hmm.

Michael Malice 1:14:56 And now I'm looking forward to... So Jake made me a three-foot tall sculpture called Future Murmur, which I am ecstatic to get.

Lex Fridman 1:15:06 Just reminds yourself how, how many fascinating, beautiful people there are out there.

Michael Malice 1:15:14 And just the victory and, and holiness-

Lex Fridman 1:15:17 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:15:17 ... and technology and speed. And how many people have, you know, fought so that I could do what I do.

Lex Fridman 1:15:26 Yeah. That's another thing I'm grateful for. Just, like, the 100 billion or so people that came before us.

Michael Malice 1:15:32 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:15:34 And, and also the trillions of life forms that came before that.

Michael Malice 1:15:38 Oh, God. I've gone down this, this trilobite rabbit hole, buying fossils, 'cause as a kid I thought trilobites were the coolest thing, and now I've got, like, 15.

Lex Fridman 1:15:47 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:15:48 And what's interesting is when you buy trilobite fossils on eBay, they are listed as used. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:15:54 (laughs)

Michael Malice 1:15:54 'Cause it's gotta be new or used, uh, according to-

Lex Fridman 1:15:56 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:15:56 ... programming. So it's used, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:15:58 Yeah. That... But just look, thinking about all that history, just all the life forms that came before, it seems like a really special thing we have going on earth here.

Michael Malice 1:16:10 Oh, uh, yeah. I, I think that, that's, that's very fair to say. But I also think this kinda is, like, live life to the fullest. You know, Camus talked about living to the point of tears.

Lex Fridman 1:16:22 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:16:23 Especially on behalf of people who didn't have that privilege.

Lex Fridman 1:16:26 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:16:26 So, you know, I dedicated The White Pill to my parents who got me out of the Soviet Union, and all the kids who never could. And it's like, when I die, I want everyone else to not only... They're obviously gonna be happy, but, yeah, like, "I'm not here. Enjoy what you have... You, you live for me 'cause I can't have that privilege anymore."

Lex Fridman 1:16:45 What do you think about Camus as a writer?

Michael Malice 1:16:47 I don't like his novels at all.

Lex Fridman 1:16:49 Oh, you don't?

Michael Malice 1:16:49 At all.

Lex Fridman 1:16:50 Yeah, you've talked shit about The Plague to me a little bit.

Michael Malice 1:16:52 Yeah, I, I didn't... I, I think the book is pointless.

Lex Fridman 1:16:55 It's fascinating.

Michael Malice 1:16:56 'Cause all you need to do is read the synopsis, and then you get it. Like, I don't think his book-

Lex Fridman 1:17:00 Isn't that true for most books?

Michael Malice 1:17:01 No.

Lex Fridman 1:17:02 I mean, like, you could take... I, I don't know. I just don't agree at all. There... I mean, it's, uh, it's Catcher in the Rye. There's a lot of books that are... seem trivial.

Michael Malice 1:17:11 I don't think it seems trivial, but I think what-

Lex Fridman 1:17:13 Animal Farm.

Michael Malice 1:17:15 Animal Farm is a methodical, step-by-step examination of a transformation from one thing to another. The Plague i- is not that.

Lex Fridman 1:17:23 It's a methodical examination of what a society is like under the plague, which could symbolize a lot of things, including the plague directly or Nazi Germany or ideological movements or... It's, it's similar to Animal Farm, maybe not as effective i- in terms of using this kind of symbology.

Michael Malice 1:17:44 I think Animal Farm has a narrative, and... I'm gonna spoil the whole Plague, the book The Plague.

Lex Fridman 1:17:50 Okay.

Michael Malice 1:17:51 There's a, there's a town, I believe, in Oman.

Lex Fridman 1:17:53 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:17:53 A plague descends. People struggle to deal with it, and the plague vanishes as quickly as it came. The end.

Lex Fridman 1:18:02 Yeah, but there's the victims, the, the people that take advantage of it. There's the doctor that admits the absurdity and the evil of the plague as fighting to do good.

Michael Malice 1:18:11 Nothing for me. It does nothing for me.

Lex Fridman 1:18:12 Okay. Well, I can spoil Animal Farm. There's, uh, pigs. There's animals at a farm (laughs) -

Michael Malice 1:18:20 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:18:20 ... and they, the humans are abusing them. And then the animals overthrow the humans, but then-

Michael Malice 1:18:28 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:18:29 ... the pigs, uh, become just like the humans. It... The lesson, kids, is that, uh, power corrupts no matter whether you walk on four or on two.

Michael Malice 1:18:40 I thought the lesson was that pigs are the most humanlike animals on the farm.

Lex Fridman 1:18:45 I thought the-

Michael Malice 1:18:46 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:18:47 I thought the lesson was that there's no sugarcane mountain.

Michael Malice 1:18:49 (laughs) That's right, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:18:53 You've interviewed a lot of people.

Michael Malice 1:18:54 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:18:54 What have you learned about getting to the soul of a person, the soul of an idea from interviewing? Just how to do a good interview.

Michael Malice 1:19:04 First off, I'm not interviewing just random people. I'm, I'm interviewing people who are accomplished. It's not a random group. That's self-selecting for something different. But I think that people, um, love to, and this is very understandable, love to feel seen.So if you're someone who's done something, even if you're like the best guinea pig breeder in America, to have someone interested in your work and ask, and, and listen to what you're saying. 'Cause I remember, every book I've written, you know, I have friends that I wouldn't stop talking about, you know, the, the, the person I'm writing with, or you know, the North Korea. At a certain point, I'm sure they're like, "All right, I don't care about this anymore." But like, it takes over your brain, you know what I mean? So if you are someone who has an interest or a hobby, I, I'm sure to some extent, maybe your friends or family are sick of talking about it, or you don't wanna talk about it with them. You wanna have, that's the private life where you could just be yourself. So I try to, and this ha- comes from my co-authoring background, when I'm talking to people, to ask questions that they haven't heard before. Um, there is a possibility, uh, that this actor I'm a huge fan of, um, is gonna be on my show. I don't wanna spoil everything.

Lex Fridman 1:20:13 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:20:14 And he's got a very specific role that he's known for. And I know I'm gonna a- I'm like, "Okay, I'm gonna, I know it's gonna be annoying for you talking about this one role, but my goal is to ask questions that haven't, you haven't, aren't sick of ans- asking."

Lex Fridman 1:20:26 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 1:20:26 Uh, having been asked.

Lex Fridman 1:20:28 Porn star, or...

Michael Malice 1:20:29 Uh, no, not a porn star.

Lex Fridman 1:20:32 That joke failed also. Edit out. What do you know about breeding guinea pigs? You mentioned it. I'd love to hear-

Michael Malice 1:20:41 I don't know anything.

Lex Fridman 1:20:42 ... uh, I would love to hear more