Travis Stevens: Judo, Olympics, and Mental Toughness | Lex Fridman Podcast #223

1. 0:00 – 4:39

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Travis Stevens, 2016 Olympic silver medalist in judo, and one of the greatest American judoka ever. But his story is inspiring, not because of that Olympic medal, but because of the decades of injury, hardship, incredible battles against the best in the world, wrapping up in close, heartbreaking losses at the 2008 and 2012 games, all of which eventually led to that very silver medal in 2016. As we talk about in the podcast, Travis is also someone who's largely responsible for me getting into judo, for which I will forever be grateful. He also happens to be now my judo coach and mentor. I'll release a video of Travis and I doing some judo in a few days. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. As a side note, let me say a few words that I've written down about the Olympic Games and the International Olympics Committee. I'm visiting family, hence the T-shirt, but I had to pull away to write and to say these words because this very video was taken down by YouTube as per the request of the IOC. You know it's serious when a Russian takes time away from family, food, and drink. I'm heartbroken to see continued incompetence, greed, and corruption on the part of the IOC in failing to do as the Olympic Charter states to, quote, "Ensure the fullest coverage and the widest possible audience in the world for the Olympic Games," end-quote. I want to give you two facts. First, they do not make most of the videos of the games available for replay anywhere that is accessible, searchable, and discoverable, whether funded by ads or by subscriptions. For example, on YouTube or their own service, it is not available anywhere. Second, in the most absurd violation of the Olympic Charter, they've uploaded all of the videos of the 2012, 2016, and the 2020/21 Olympics to YouTube, and they set all of these videos to private. This results in a situation like my four-hour conversation that you're watching now with Travis Stevens being taken down due to us including a few seconds of a small video overlay of Travis's epic match against Oleh Bishov in 2012. This is done automatically as per the request of the IOC. I have the video due to having screen recorded it from 2012. Here you have Travis Stevens, an Olympic silver medalist, someone who spent his entire life overcoming injuries, losses, hard weight cuts, periods of no financial or psychological support, culminating in the biggest heartbreak of his career in this one match, and this match is available nowhere online, not for free, not for $1 million. Our showing short clips of it results in the IOC taking it down, not demonetizing it, taking it down, blocking it. The IOC silences this amazing story of Travis Stevens, of heartbreak that eventually led to triumph, and there are thousands of stories like it, stories that are supposed to inspire the world. To me and to billions of others, the Olympic Games give a chance to celebrate and to be inspired by the greatest stories of human flourishing in the face of hardship and incredibly long odds or dominance in the pursuit of perfection at levels previously thought to be impossible. The Olympic Games inspire kids like me to dream and to work hard to achieve in our own lives the same moments of magic and greatness, small or big, that the Olympic Games reveal. I believe the members of the IOC are good people, but people who forgot the dream, the fire that was sparked and burned in their hearts when they first saw the Olympics as kids. They've allowed the gradual corruption of their own human spirit, and thereby have robbed the world of this very fire, the fire of the Olympic torch, the fire that ought to burn in the eyes and hearts of kids watching the Olympics today, daring to dream, daring to be great. Please, please do better. The world needs you. The world needs the Olympic Games. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast, and here's my conversation with Travis Stevens.

2. 4:39 – 12:27

   What is Judo?

   1. LFLex Fridman4:40

      Judo is a martial art, a sport, a set of techniques, ideas and philosophies. Can we start by, uh, maybe you giving a big picture overview of what is judo to somebody who's like outside all the whole spectrum of grappling sports?

   2. TSTravis Stevens4:54

      Yeah. Judo was originated in Japan that was used as a police tactic for self-defense and, you know, subduing people. It's the art of being able to throw somebody to the ground and hold and control the situation. Um, I think it's pretty much evolved since then though. You know, it's, as you include like the sport aspect of it, it's, it's grown to be something more and more dynamic, um, and it's kind of gotten away from that.

   3. LFLex Fridman5:25

      So the basics is people wear something called a gi-

   4. TSTravis Stevens5:28

      Yep.

   5. LFLex Fridman5:28

      ... which I think nicely mimics like outdoor clothing-

   6. TSTravis Stevens5:32

      Yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman5:33

      ... like a jacket. And, uh, they start on the feet, and there's, um, they get to grip each other a- and the scoring works by the more badass the throw is, the more points you get.

   8. TSTravis Stevens5:46

      (laughs)

   9. LFLex Fridman5:46

      And if, uh, you throw the person big and hard on their back, you win the match and it's over. And that's called an ippon.

   10. TSTravis Stevens5:55

       Yeah, which is equivalent to a knockout.

   11. LFLex Fridman5:58

       So I guess there's no knockdowns-

   12. TSTravis Stevens6:00

       No.

   13. LFLex Fridman6:00

       ... in judo.

   14. TSTravis Stevens6:01

       We don't count those.

   15. LFLex Fridman6:02

       Yeah. (laughs)

   16. TSTravis Stevens6:02

       They gotta hit their back, and they gotta hit it with force.

   17. LFLex Fridman6:05

       Right. And so, there's a huge incentive for the big throws.

   18. TSTravis Stevens6:08

       Yep.

   19. LFLex Fridman6:09

       And, uh, and there's also the drama of somebody catching you off guard with a surprise big throw, and it's over.

   20. TSTravis Stevens6:18

       Yep. There's, there's two ways of losing, really. There's the, "I saw this coming."

   21. LFLex Fridman6:24

       (laughs)

   22. TSTravis Stevens6:24

       Right?

   23. LFLex Fridman6:25

       Yeah.

   24. TSTravis Stevens6:25

       Like, you just, you see it, but you can't stop it. And those ones tend to be the ones you can live with. The ones that are, like, really hard to live with are the ones you never saw coming, right? 'Cause that just shows that that person has really outclassed you.

   25. LFLex Fridman6:41

       Right. So, there's, like, a set of, uh, a small set of throws, maybe we can go through them, that are, like, you saw it coming but you couldn't do anything about it, and then there is the set of throws that are more, like, surprises. So, first of all, the counters. Or if you fake one thing and go the other way, then that's a surprise, and it's like, "Oh, shit." You off-balance the person, uh, because they think you're going one way and then you go the other way, and then there's this "oh, shit" moment, all of a sudden-

   26. TSTravis Stevens7:07

       Yep.

   27. LFLex Fridman7:07

       ... your g- your back is just slammed on the ground. One of the one, I mean, you're good of many throws, but one of them is a, a that I think reveals the beauty of judo, is the foot sweep.

   28. TSTravis Stevens7:18

       Yep.

   29. LFLex Fridman7:19

       There's something about the off-balance and the timing, that if you catch him right, all of a sudden... It's like, I had the same feeling when I went skydiving. Like, all of a sudden the ground is not under you anymore.

   30. TSTravis Stevens7:29

       Yeah, and you just, you go weightlessness for, like, a split second, and you realize you've lost, like, all control of your limbs. Like, it's like zero gravity, right? Like, you just, you can't turn, you can't rotate, you can't do much of anything. And then before you know it, you've hit the floor.
3. 12:27 – 17:52

   Travis's signature throw

   1. LFLex Fridman12:27

      Uh, how did you first develop that throw? So for people, um, it's called Ippon Seoinage, which means your right hand goes under their, like, armpit area.

   2. TSTravis Stevens12:36

      Yep.

   3. LFLex Fridman12:37

      And that, that's like a vice that connects you to them.

   4. TSTravis Stevens12:41

      Yeah.

   5. LFLex Fridman12:41

      And then they get, go on for the ride.

   6. TSTravis Stevens12:43

      Yep.

   7. LFLex Fridman12:44

      The interesting thing with the standing one is, uh, as opposed to drop Seoinage version, the drop Seoinage you kind of, um, drop under them, and because there's a vice, they're like pulled, pulled under, and like over.

   8. TSTravis Stevens12:59

      Yeah.

   9. LFLex Fridman13:00

      Uh, with the standing one, I suppose there's some similar physics, but you're kind of loading them onto your hip, and so they're in the air while you're standing still. There's th- there's a, there's a sense in which they're, like you're lifting them above where they started.

   10. TSTravis Stevens13:19

       Yes.

   11. LFLex Fridman13:19

       Th- that's how you get the really big air.

   12. TSTravis Stevens13:22

       Yeah.

   13. LFLex Fridman13:22

       I- if, o- obviously if, um, if everything is right. So, how did you first develop that? How did you first...

   14. TSTravis Stevens13:30

       I first learned just learning like the very basics of the throw, you know, foot placement, all that kind of stuff, and then, you know, like anything, the basics are nice. Um, but once you get good at the basics, it's, it's very easy to stop, but it gives you a good, like, fundamental platform to learn off of and to expand off of, and then I expanded when I first started watching Koga, the new wind, right? 'Cause he's the one that first, like, introduced that split hip style Seoinage that I do. Um, once I learned that one, I built about eight different variations of Seoi off that one start position. That way I could, regardless of your defense, I had an answer for a throw.

   15. LFLex Fridman14:18

       So why that one though? Why... Can you, uh, can you describe love to me, Travis Stevens?

   16. TSTravis Stevens14:22

       (laughs)

   17. LFLex Fridman14:22

       Why'd you fall in love with that throw in particular?

   18. TSTravis Stevens14:25

       Um, it, it was really a sense of, you know, one of my shortcomings as a kid, like, I hate leg day in the gym. I hate it with a passion.

   19. LFLex Fridman14:37

       (laughs)

   20. TSTravis Stevens14:37

       I... If you ask me to do a squat, I'll, I'll get it done, but I will bitch and moan every step of the way.

   21. LFLex Fridman14:43

       Yeah.

   22. TSTravis Stevens14:44

       I hate it. I remember one time I was at the gym with my trainer and he goes, "Okay, we're gonna do front squats, and I want you to put 225 on the bar." And I was like, "I can't do that." And he was like, "What do you mean you can't do that?" And I go, "I, I physically, I c- I can't do that." And he was like, "Are you serious?" And I go, "Yeah." So, he's, he didn't believe me. He put 225 on the bar and I bottomed out.

   23. LFLex Fridman15:05

       All right.

   24. TSTravis Stevens15:05

       And then he was like, "Okay, let's go down to 185." And I was like, "I can't do that. I just... It's not happening."

   25. LFLex Fridman15:10

       You probably could strength-wise, you just refused to-

   26. TSTravis Stevens15:12

       I just mentally, I cannot wrap my head around, like, this ain't happening. I'm not doing it. So I ended up with like-

   27. LFLex Fridman15:18

       Your man principle, I don't do leg day.

   28. TSTravis Stevens15:20

       95 pounds on the bar, I got you with a front squat, no problem.

   29. LFLex Fridman15:23

       All right. By the way, body weight squats are rough too, psychologically.

   30. TSTravis Stevens15:27

       Yeah.
4. 17:52 – 19:44

   Fundamentals

   1. TSTravis Stevens17:52

   2. LFLex Fridman17:52

      Is there something you could say about fundamental principles of Judo? Is there o- over all that time, uh, 20, over 20 years that you've been doing Judo, uh... It's not approaching 30, is it? (laughs)

   3. TSTravis Stevens18:07

      Y- be- yeah. It's-

   4. LFLex Fridman18:07

      It's, yeah.

   5. TSTravis Stevens18:08

      ... g- getting, it's going there.

   6. LFLex Fridman18:09

      It's getting there.

   7. TSTravis Stevens18:09

      (laughs)

   8. LFLex Fridman18:09

      Okay. It's getting there.

   9. TSTravis Stevens18:10

      (laughs) We're a couple years away, but it's getting there.

   10. LFLex Fridman18:12

       Um, is there some like-... principles that have emerged? Like you said, you, you have to have, uh, your center of gravity below theirs.

   11. TSTravis Stevens18:20

       Yep.

   12. LFLex Fridman18:21

       Is there a other kind of, both on the gripping side, the footwork side, leverage? Any- any- anything you can speak to.

   13. TSTravis Stevens18:28

       There's some that have withstood, like, time. Like, you have to be able to get below their center of gravity 'cause you have to be able to rotate them around their center of gravity. And then, the other one is, that was always a principle when I was growing up and I didn't change until later on in my career, was you have to be able to pull. You need to be able to pull to get them off balance. But when you think about that statement as a whole, it ended with, "They have to be off balance." I don't need to pull to get you off balance. I just need you off balance. And when you think about it that way, it allows you to open up the doors to, "What do I need to do to get you off balance?" I could push, pull, I could flinch, I could fake, and you could put yourself in your own off-balance state.

   14. LFLex Fridman19:17

       Hmm.

   15. TSTravis Stevens19:18

       Right? When you think about people who wrestle, right? If I fake shoot, it causes you to overlean forward which means you're off balance. There's no pull, there's no push, there's no nothing. I just get a reaction that leaves the opportunity and the door open for an attack.

   16. LFLex Fridman19:34

       And that off balance could be very subtle?

   17. TSTravis Stevens19:36

       Could be very subtle. And the better you get and the more skilled you get, the less subtle it is.

5. 19:44 – 32:36

   Throws

   1. TSTravis Stevens19:44

   2. LFLex Fridman19:44

      Uh, so we should also mention that there is something called forward throws, where you throw the person, you know, they've, they're gonna fly facing forward. They're gonna fly forward.

   3. TSTravis Stevens19:56

      Yeah.

   4. LFLex Fridman19:56

      And then backward throw is they're gonna fly back.

   5. TSTravis Stevens20:00

      Yep.

   6. LFLex Fridman20:00

      So, they're-

   7. TSTravis Stevens20:00

      And then there's lateral. You know, they actually go sideways over-

   8. LFLex Fridman20:04

      Sideways.

   9. TSTravis Stevens20:04

      ... like a cartwheel almost.

   10. LFLex Fridman20:05

       Okay. So, the forward throws, there is the one we've been talking about which is, uh, sen nage, and there's a bunch of different variants, Ippon, morote, sen nage. There's drop and there's standing versions of them. And that all, I don't know if there's a way to summarize it, but that's like as clean as, uh, getting your center of gravity under theirs as it gets. And then the rest is just gripping variations.

   11. TSTravis Stevens20:30

       Yep.

   12. LFLex Fridman20:30

       I guess it's all gripping variations on all of these throws. But, um, and then, uh, there's, uh, in terms of forward throws, there's the other big one in competition is uchimata, which is ... I don't know, we can try to explain that one. But it- it, uh, ends up being where one of ... you're standing on just one of your feet and the other one is up in the air. And, uh, I don't know if you put in that same category haraogoshi, like those kinds of throws where you're kind of a little bit single footed.

   13. TSTravis Stevens21:06

       Yeah.

   14. LFLex Fridman21:06

       And then-

   15. TSTravis Stevens21:06

       So there's two-footed techniques and then there's single-footed.

   16. LFLex Fridman21:09

       Single-footed?

   17. TSTravis Stevens21:09

       Yeah.

   18. LFLex Fridman21:09

       O-goshi?

   19. TSTravis Stevens21:10

       Yep.

   20. LFLex Fridman21:10

       Where it's like you're doing a mix between the uchimata and the sen nage (laughs) .

   21. TSTravis Stevens21:16

       Yep.

   22. LFLex Fridman21:16

       It's a hug. You- you hug a person and then you turn your hips around such that you're now hugging facing the same direction.

   23. TSTravis Stevens21:24

       When it comes to forward throw, there's ... Regardless of the name of the throw or the gripping variation that you're using, the whole principle is how do I get this person to do a forward roll in midair and land on their back? The more of a forward roll I can get, the bigger the score. If I get like a quarter of a turn where like you land on your side and you don't go over your back, it's a half score.

   24. LFLex Fridman21:50

       Yeah. Do-

   25. TSTravis Stevens21:50

       But they all require me to get you to do that forward rolling action.

   26. LFLex Fridman21:55

       So just, if we think of one person, if they do this nice leap forward and they do a roll and their back nicely rolls over the ground, you're trying to do the exact same thing with you connected to them.

   27. TSTravis Stevens22:06

       Well, and if it's nice and it's smooth, it's probably not a full score. It needs to have like somewhat of a violent impact.

   28. LFLex Fridman22:14

       (laughs) Yeah.

   29. TSTravis Stevens22:15

       Right? So if you think of a drop sen nage, if I, if I'm moving too slow and you still roll over your shoulders and there's no direct impact, it's only a half score.

   30. LFLex Fridman22:24

       Right.
6. 32:36 – 41:09

   Gripping

   1. LFLex Fridman32:36

      is because there's a jacket, there's also this whole thing that you're a master of, which is like, which is gripping.

   2. TSTravis Stevens32:42

      Yep.

   3. LFLex Fridman32:43

      So, is there something you can say about ... Are there some fundamental principles of gripping that you can speak to? Like, what the hell is gripping?

   4. TSTravis Stevens32:52

      Gripping is having the ability to hold your opponent in such a way where you have the ability to be offensive, and also the ability to be defensive at the same given time. And it's a distinction because I can hold you in such a way where I might be able to feel offensive. But if you can take a purely defensive grip and then I can't be offensive, we are no longer gripping. We are holding each other.

   5. LFLex Fridman33:21

      Right. (laughs)

   6. TSTravis Stevens33:22

      Right? So like-

   7. LFLex Fridman33:24

      It's ... (laughs)

   8. TSTravis Stevens33:24

      ... that would be the act of being able to grip, is to be in a situation where you have me and I have you, and I can play both offense and defense at the same time, where you can only play defense.

   9. LFLex Fridman33:37

      So, uh, Donaher talks about like, jujitsu that way. Or not that way, but maybe you can see if there's a distinction. So, you have a set of weapons, the other person has a set of weapons. You wanna sort of maximize the use of your weapons and shut down the set of-

   10. TSTravis Stevens33:52

       Weapons that they have, yeah.

   11. LFLex Fridman33:53

       ... that they have. And do you see gripping the same way on the f- on the feet?

   12. TSTravis Stevens33:57

       I do if we want to include body positioning with our gripping.

   13. LFLex Fridman34:02

       Right. Okay.

   14. TSTravis Stevens34:03

       Because I can give you any grip you want, and you still can't throw me. 'Cause I can put myself in a position that nullifies your ability to use those grips in a successful way.

   15. LFLex Fridman34:13

       And those, um, would you say the hips are critical to that, or is it everything-

   16. TSTravis Stevens34:17

       Yeah. Hips, shoulders, chin position, head position, you know, the angle of-

   17. LFLex Fridman34:21

       How much you lean.

   18. TSTravis Stevens34:22

       ... your foot.

   19. LFLex Fridman34:22

       Yeah.

   20. TSTravis Stevens34:22

       Yeah, where you lean.

   21. LFLex Fridman34:24

       (laughs) Wow. Okay. And so, uh, and there's a bunch of places you can grip, obviously. If people like, kind of think of a jacket, like, there's a bunch of places you can grip that are interesting. So, you can grip on the collar, you can grip on the sleeves, you can grip like, at the elbow joint.

   22. TSTravis Stevens34:41

       Yep.

   23. LFLex Fridman34:41

       And then you could do, uh, those badass, like, Eastern European-

   24. TSTravis Stevens34:46

       Yeah.

   25. LFLex Fridman34:46

       ... Georgian-

   26. TSTravis Stevens34:47

       Grips over the back-

   27. LFLex Fridman34:48

       ... over the back.

   28. TSTravis Stevens34:48

       Over the opposite sides of the heads.

   29. LFLex Fridman34:50

       Yeah.

   30. TSTravis Stevens34:50

       Yeah. The Koreans that grab on one side around the head with their hands together.
7. 41:09 – 1:10:22

   Weight cutting

   1. LFLex Fridman41:09

      so let's talk about weight cutting real, real quick.

   2. TSTravis Stevens41:11

      (laughs)

   3. LFLex Fridman41:11

      So, th- I've, I've seen weight cutting break some of the toughest fighters, wrestlers, grapplers ever, like burnout break, like where they, makes them wanna quit the sport.

   4. TSTravis Stevens41:24

      Yep.

   5. LFLex Fridman41:24

      Um, so, you know, this is what people don't often talk about, but mentally, it's one of the hardest things, especially when you're doing it kind of wrong. (laughs) Because it becomes a mental war. Um, so you competed, like you said, your whole career, at 81 kilograms. You walked around at-

   6. TSTravis Stevens41:42

      88, 89.

   7. LFLex Fridman41:44

      So, about 15 pounds, sometimes 20 pounds over that-

   8. TSTravis Stevens41:49

      Give or, give or take.

   9. LFLex Fridman41:50

      Yeah. And so what, uh, what was your process like mentally and physically? First of all, maybe you can comment on when the weigh-ins are, relative to the matches?

   10. TSTravis Stevens42:00

       In-

   11. LFLex Fridman42:00

       And then what was your process like leading, like a week ahead, a day ahead, an hour ahead, minutes ahead of the w- of the weigh-in?

   12. TSTravis Stevens42:09

       Man, everyone varies tremendously because we're not like most sports because you're dropped off in foreign countries with-

   13. LFLex Fridman42:19

       Right.

   14. TSTravis Stevens42:19

       ... who knows what, right? Some places have saunas, some places have treadmills. I went to a place one time in China, in the middle of winter, where the roads were frozen with ice. And we had to use our hotel rooms because it was, you couldn't sweat outside 'cause it was too cold.

   15. LFLex Fridman42:37

       Right.

   16. TSTravis Stevens42:37

       Um, in every one of my Olympics, the weight cut was different, just given my mass. When I went to 2008, I was probably like-... 82, 83 kilos walking around, so weight cutting wasn't a thing for me. In London, we actually weighed in the morning of, so weigh-ins were at like 6:00 AM. And the Olympics were always beneficial to me, because they actually don't start until like 10 or 11, so you actually were able to recover. Where on the circuit, you would weigh in at 6:00 AM, and the competition started at 8:00 AM. And it's like, "Well, I was cutting weight at 5:00 AM."

   17. LFLex Fridman43:15

       And most of it, for people who are not familiar, but maybe you can also correct me, most of it, you're really just getting the water out of your system. Is, was water p-

   18. TSTravis Stevens43:23

       At that point, yeah.

   19. LFLex Fridman43:24

       It that, like 24 hours before, even? Like, so are you-

   20. TSTravis Stevens43:28

       Like an hour before.

   21. LFLex Fridman43:29

       Ye- but yeah, but like leading up to it. Um, and do, have you eaten the day before? Do you try to minimize the amount of food in your system?

   22. TSTravis Stevens43:38

       My weight-cutting process was a little bit different than, than most people, because I like to eat. Um, I'm not, I'm not the type of person that believes your athletic career is determined by your nutrition.

   23. LFLex Fridman43:55

       Right.

   24. TSTravis Stevens43:56

       I don't, I don't believe that. I think some sports are built that way, but when it comes to combat sports, like, you know, your ability to knock somebody out has nothing to do with whether you had a cheeseburger or a salad. My ability to throw you is not determined by that. I may be able to perform better because I've eaten a certain way, but not enough to justify an entire diet change. Your body is built and my body is built to operate with certain things that I've had in my system for years.

   25. LFLex Fridman44:26

       Yeah. I think, uh, I'm, I'm with you, but I also believe that there's a mi- a mental aspect. So if you're surrounded by people that tell you diet matters-

   26. TSTravis Stevens44:35

       Yes.

   27. LFLex Fridman44:35

       ... then if your diet is off, you're gonna believe you're going to be off-

   28. TSTravis Stevens44:39

       Yep.

   29. LFLex Fridman44:39

       ... because the people around you tell you your diet should be good. So yeah, I, I think it's like, it's the same way ... I've had an argument with Matthew Walker, who's, uh, who's a sleep scientist, about sleep. And it's like, if you believe sleep is essential, it's essential to get eight hours of sleep every single night perfectly, then you're going to be very stressed when you don't get it, and then I think you'll negatively affect ... the stress will negatively affect your longevity and all kinds of aspects of your life. If you actually just learn to truly listen to your body, become a scientist for your own body, with sleep and food, it might end up that it will be the eight hours a night or whatever, but it might be something else.

   30. TSTravis Stevens45:17

       Correct.
8. 1:10:22 – 1:14:22

   Injuries

   1. LFLex Fridman1:10:22

   2. TSTravis Stevens1:10:22

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman1:10:22

      Can we talk about the other side? People are gonna love this. But you're, um ... you have a long history of persevering through injuries.

   4. TSTravis Stevens1:10:33

      Mm-hmm.

   5. LFLex Fridman1:10:34

      Through insane amounts of injuries.

   6. TSTravis Stevens1:10:37

      Uh, my ability to tolerate pain is probably more than most people.

   7. LFLex Fridman1:10:42

      But, see, injuries aren't just pain, right? It's like, um ... it's also mental, like psychological. Like again, like the weight cut, it can make a lot of people quit.

   8. TSTravis Stevens1:10:53

      Yep.

   9. LFLex Fridman1:10:54

      Can you tell your history of injuries? What are the biggest injuries, the toughest injuries in your career?

   10. TSTravis Stevens1:11:02

       Um-

   11. LFLex Fridman1:11:02

       Starting from, what, your early teens?

   12. TSTravis Stevens1:11:05

       My early teens, um, I actually got out of sports from 11 to, I want to say like 15 years old, 16 years old because a kid shot a double leg through my kneecap and I partially tore all the ligaments in my knee, cartilages, meniscus, the whole nine yards, and I had to learn how to walk again. I spent two years in a leg brace, crutches, you know, hobbling around the schoolyard. That one was a challenge to come back from. Um, I've broken most of my ribs. I won nationals with nine broken ribs. I was actually getting Novocain shots into my chest to avoid feeling the pain, and then wrapping them to try to make sure I didn't pop a lung.

   13. LFLex Fridman1:11:52

       (laughs) .

   14. TSTravis Stevens1:11:52

       Um, I've broken my collarbone, um, I have five herniated discs in my neck. I fractured my back twice. I've broken my tailbone. I tore my SI joints. I've torn my right hamstring twice, my left one once. Um, broken my ankles a few times. I spun it once in a 360 that had to have surgery. Fingers, toes, elbows, shoulders.

   15. LFLex Fridman1:12:20

       ƒ- f- f- f- ... so all of these are, first of all, (laughs) y- you're, um, you're a tough, you're a tough dude, man. Uh, so each of those have a story behind them. So, if you're talking about the collarbone, (laughs) or the ankles, uh, uh, or, or the back, the neck, is there interesting stories here that are behind these injuries? Hard training, hard competing, jujitsu, judo. And so-

   16. TSTravis Stevens1:12:50

       Oh.

   17. LFLex Fridman1:12:50

       ... ground stuff like, uh, sparring in the dojo or, like drilling or all that kind of stuff. What, w- if you were to sort of break it down, your understanding of this, the landscape of injuries you went through?

   18. TSTravis Stevens1:13:03

       I've never had one in jujitsu. Ever. I mean, I might have like torn a fingernail or like, you know, gotten ki burned, but I've never been like-... seriously injured. I know when Panza straight ankle-locked me at Copa Podio, that hurt but I wasn't injured. Like it felt sore.

   19. LFLex Fridman1:13:25

       Mm-hmm.

   20. TSTravis Stevens1:13:26

       But like, if I had to run, like I could run.

   21. LFLex Fridman1:13:28

       I can now understand probably exactly where the injuries came from then. You very quickly excelled at Jujitsu. You have achieved another level in Judo.

   22. TSTravis Stevens1:13:39

       Yeah.

   23. LFLex Fridman1:13:39

       And I think that means the intensity with which you approach Judo to achieve that world-class level, probably is the source of the injuries.

   24. TSTravis Stevens1:13:49

       Yeah, because the mentality of how I approach Judo versus Jujitsu. Jujitsu, to me, is like a game that like we would play.

   25. LFLex Fridman1:14:02

       Yeah.

   26. TSTravis Stevens1:14:02

       Like if you wanted to like grab a basketball and like go play a game of one-on-one, that's like Jujitsu to me. Like I can't take the sport in, in its entirety seriously 'cause I feel like the community of Jujitsu doesn't take it seriously.

   27. LFLex Fridman1:14:17

       So just for people who don't know, just to set some context, you're,

9. 1:14:22 – 1:18:05

   Jiu-Jitsu

   1. LFLex Fridman1:14:22

      you're a blackbelt in Jujitsu, but more importantly, you've beaten a lot of world-class Jujitsu people. You've done very well at the highest levels of competition.

   2. TSTravis Stevens1:14:33

      Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily say I've beaten them as much as I've trained with them, and they understand whoever it is that through training with me, that like I'm not just a Judo guy. Like I know how to do Jujitsu, right?

   3. LFLex Fridman1:14:52

      Yeah.

   4. TSTravis Stevens1:14:52

      And if any one of them were to come to me and like say, "Hey, you know, I wanna feel what it feels like to do Judo with me," th- they would quickly understand that like the way I approach one is very different than the way I approach the other. Like we probably wouldn't be friends if they did Judo with me versus if they did Jujitsu with me.

   5. LFLex Fridman1:15:17

      Right. I'm curious, asking for a friend because mostly because I'll do a little Judo with you today. So you clearly, 'cause you're a great instructor and teacher, you have a mode where you can demonstrate a technique. Do you know how to like spar where you're going like 50%? (laughs)

   6. TSTravis Stevens1:15:34

      It's hard to put like a percentage to it because I've never, in all of my Jujitsu, ever gone 100%.

   7. LFLex Fridman1:15:42

      In Jujitsu?

   8. TSTravis Stevens1:15:43

      Yeah. Like I had a conversation with Salo one time, where we were talking about like Jujitsu and training. And I was like, "Well if I got his arm, I would just break it." And he was like, "But what if he tapped?" I go, "That's not my responsibility."

   9. LFLex Fridman1:16:01

      (laughs)

   10. TSTravis Stevens1:16:03

       If he taps and the ref doesn't say anything, you just break it. You just keep going.

   11. LFLex Fridman1:16:06

       Yeah.

   12. TSTravis Stevens1:16:07

       He goes, "But the tap means it's over." And I said, "No, the ref tells me when it's over." I go, "I'd never give you the opportunity to tap, 'cause if you have the opportunity to tap, that means you had the opportunity to think about how to get out, make a decision that you can't, then tap." I clearly operated too slowly.

   13. LFLex Fridman1:16:25

       Yeah.

   14. TSTravis Stevens1:16:26

       So there's a, it's either broken or I don't have it-

   15. LFLex Fridman1:16:29

       You're a terrifying-

   16. TSTravis Stevens1:16:29

       ... when it comes to Judo.

   17. LFLex Fridman1:16:30

       ... person to go against in Judo. Like the, on the ground is, like everything you did, that's, that's amazing. Um, that's really amazing. That's what made you a really fun person to watch, 'cause you really went to war with these people.

   18. TSTravis Stevens1:16:44

       Yeah.

   19. LFLex Fridman1:16:45

       So you know what it's like to go 100% in Judo?

   20. TSTravis Stevens1:16:47

       I do, 'cause I know what it's like to train with somebody under the mentality of, "I'm gonna do everything I want to do. You're gonna do nothing you want to do, and you're gonna accept that."

   21. LFLex Fridman1:17:01

       Do you ever train in Judo where, where you let people get stuff? Like-

   22. TSTravis Stevens1:17:05

       Of course, all the time.

   23. LFLex Fridman1:17:08

       Now or like-

   24. TSTravis Stevens1:17:09

       Always.

   25. LFLex Fridman1:17:10

       ... even when you're sort of building up the four years, building up to the Olympics? Like there's smaller guys that are throwing you in the gym and that kinda stuff.

   26. TSTravis Stevens1:17:18

       No, I never said that.

   27. LFLex Fridman1:17:19

       Okay. (laughs)

   28. TSTravis Stevens1:17:21

       That never came out of my mouth.

   29. LFLex Fridman1:17:23

       (laughs)

   30. TSTravis Stevens1:17:24

       I said I let people do stuff. I never said smaller people throw me.
10. 1:18:05 – 1:21:30

    Lex on his judo competition experience

    1. LFLex Fridman1:18:05

       See, I competed in Judo against, uh, blackbelts, where I would go in and it looks like I could, should be able to throw them, and then you just hit a wall. And then I also saw you destroy those blackbelts.

    2. TSTravis Stevens1:18:18

       Yeah.

    3. LFLex Fridman1:18:19

       So there's levels to this. (laughs)

    4. TSTravis Stevens1:18:20

       Yeah.

    5. LFLex Fridman1:18:20

       It's the y- the cliche thing of there's blackbelts and there's blackbelts. You're unique in this. There may be a, a couple other, uh, Judoka in America, but you're really like unique. I didn't get to see people that really I felt like were 10x better than me. It just feels like that sometimes. I've learned that it might not necessarily be true, they mo- might only be just a little better. But I saw you destroy them and it was like, "Holy shit."

    6. TSTravis Stevens1:18:49

       There's a thing in Judo, right? Where, you know, imagine like you as like just an adult, right? Um, and I, I hope people can like conceptualize this when they hear this, but imagine like you're a full-grown adult, even male, female, it doesn't matter. But there's a little kid in front of you, like call him five or six years old and he's acting out. Like do you think you have the physical capability of with one hand grabbing that person or that kid and making sure that they freeze?Like, they feel like they're nervous and like they can't do anything.

    7. LFLex Fridman1:19:25

       Right.

    8. TSTravis Stevens1:19:26

       When you fight a good judo player, when they grab you, that's what it feels like, as an adult.

    9. LFLex Fridman1:19:32

       Yeah. Yeah.

    10. TSTravis Stevens1:19:33

        When peop- even I've felt that from, like, certain players in Japan, like when they get a grip, I'm like, "I've now lost the function of this limb."

    11. LFLex Fridman1:19:41

        Yeah. That's a really good way to put it. I think I could potentially beat some of the people I've, uh, went against, but certain grips they took, it made me feel powerless.

    12. TSTravis Stevens1:19:53

        Yep.

    13. LFLex Fridman1:19:53

        I was like co- I didn't know this was possible, that kind of power was possible.

    14. TSTravis Stevens1:19:57

        And you don't even know where it originates from.

    15. LFLex Fridman1:20:00

        Yeah.

    16. TSTravis Stevens1:20:00

        'Cause you're like, "How does one person's hand do this where I can't use my whole arm?"

    17. LFLex Fridman1:20:04

        Yeah.

    18. TSTravis Stevens1:20:05

        Or like, "I can't pick up my right foot because he's holding onto my right sleeve."

    19. LFLex Fridman1:20:08

        Yeah. It was kinda, um, on a basic animalistic sense, kind of terrifying. It's, uh, I mean, you don't wanna, um... Part of this is like ego, but you realize that there's a food chain and you're not at the top of it. (laughs) That's part of the humbling process, I think, of martial arts is like, I think everybody, hmm, like a lot of people, think they're much higher in the food chain than they are.

    20. TSTravis Stevens1:20:37

        Than they really are.

    21. LFLex Fridman1:20:38

        And then when you realize, this is why it's a really healthy process for people, they're not even competing in the Olympics to practice martial arts 'cause you realize, okay, that like putting yourself more accurately in the food chain is really good way to sort of place yourself in the rest of the world. It humbles you to the reality, the harshness of the world.

    22. TSTravis Stevens1:20:58

        Yep. It's kinda like when people look at, like, survival in the wilderness, it's like, "Oh, it's not that hard." No, you'd probably die in a couple of days.

    23. LFLex Fridman1:21:07

        (laughs)

    24. TSTravis Stevens1:21:07

        Same thing with, like, judo and martial arts, like, yeah, it's really not that hard, but you don't know what to do yet. And so when you find out that first time that you don't know what to do, it's devastating to a lot of people. But those that, like, stick through it and, like, start to learn, it's a very empowerful, like, feeling that now, like, you can take care of yourself.

11. 1:21:30 – 1:34:41

    Levels of mastery

    1. TSTravis Stevens1:21:31

    2. LFLex Fridman1:21:31

       And I think, uh, when I talked to you a few times before, you talked about that there's like le- like the top three, the top five in the world, I don't know where you put them, but they're, they're another, like, level above everybody else.

    3. TSTravis Stevens1:21:43

       A whole nother tier, yeah.

    4. LFLex Fridman1:21:45

       And the fact that you're... I mean, it's, it's so exciting to me, uh, probably because I just felt all the levels here and I have seen you and others at that height destroy those... I've, I, I, I've seen the exponential levels to this game. It's incredible that you're, didn't quit, didn't doubt yourself, and just persevered through three Olympics to get to that highest, always fighting at that, like, very highest of levels, but just, like, you know, from the top 10 to the top five, like, really breaking in through that.

    5. TSTravis Stevens1:22:23

       Mm-hmm.

    6. LFLex Fridman1:22:24

       I don't know. Um, what would you say it took to get to that highest of levels? Like if you, when you look back at all the weight cuts, the, just the insane amount of injuries.

    7. TSTravis Stevens1:22:36

       Believe it or not, I didn't really think I was there until 2013, I thought I was recognized as one of the best because I was able to fight for Oppensburg, which was the professional Bundesligateam for Germany, which is one of the top clubs in all of Europe. Um, when they asked me to, I felt like Europe had like accepted me as like, "Oh, I'm a top level judo player." But I don't necessarily think that when I signed on to compete for them that the division or the world of judo saw me as a top level judo player. Right? There's, there's a, a mental shift that happens along that point. And for me, my mental shift really came into play in December of 2015-

Episode duration: 3:42:42