Don't be boring: KCRW's Jennifer Ferro on building a brand people love

1. 0:00 – 0:55

   Introducing Jennifer Ferro

   1. JFJennifer Ferro0:00

      We don't assume, oh, we're public radio, so we should be a little bit boring.

   2. SPSpeaker0:03

      Public radio. Serving Southern California. KCRW. Public radio. It's KCRW.

   3. JBJeff Berman0:07

      Yes, indeed. It's KCRW.

   4. JFJennifer Ferro0:09

      There's, like, the broccoli and the, and the chocolate cake. We try to lean to the chocolate cake.

   5. JBJeff Berman0:14

      Well, and sometimes your, your broccoli just with a really nice cheese on top or something like that, right?

   6. JFJennifer Ferro0:18

      That's true. Yeah, exactly.

   7. SPSpeaker0:21

      KCRW. KCRW. Public radio.

   8. JFJennifer Ferro0:22

      The founder of KCRW, she was a person who really didn't care what other people thought of her. It's a superpower in making decisions. We fought all the time. I realized later that was her love language. I would leave every day and go, "Oh, I'm gonna get fired," you know?

   9. SPSpeaker0:34

      The best radio station in Southern California. This is KCRW.

   10. JFJennifer Ferro0:39

       Literally every other aspect of media is controlled by the new kind of almost oligarchs [laughs] of, of the world. We're not here to make money, to sell your data, to get you to buy something. We're just giving you information and trying to make your life better.

2. 0:55 – 3:48

   Interview with Creative Planning's Chief Investment Officer

   1. JBJeff Berman0:55

      Hey, folks, Jeff Berman here. Before we start the show, I'm thrilled to welcome my friend Jamie Batmer, Chief Investment Officer of Creative Planning, one of the sponsors of our show. Creative Planning is one of the country's largest independent wealth management firms where a single team, advisors, tax specialists, estate planners, all work from one coordinated plan. Jamie, welcome to the show.

   2. SPSpeaker1:17

      Hey. Thank you so much for having me.

   3. JBJeff Berman1:19

      Jamie, when you meet a new client, founder, a business owner, what does their advisor setup usually look like?

   4. SPSpeaker1:26

      Maybe a few investment people, right? They have it spread out with, with a few firms. Then they have, you know, uh, a tax person they've been working with or a tax team, and then a, an estate planning team they've been working with. And so what we've done is, you know, bring those all under one roof with the dedicated subject matter experts within each space.

   5. JBJeff Berman1:44

      I have to imagine that there's also a, a set of hidden costs when you have advisors who, uh, don't really talk to each other. W- what do those costs look like that people may not even recognize?

   6. SPSpeaker1:56

      Well, it's just friction costs. You're not moving along as efficiently as you can be. And if there's not clear communication between those, um, entities, you're missing stuff. You're missing the closest thing to free money the markets will give you.

   7. JBJeff Berman2:08

      Could I ask you to share a real-world example of a client who came to you after fragmented advice and counsel led to a costly mistake?

   8. SPSpeaker2:17

      We had a, a family that was domiciled at one point in, um, Delaware, right? Made total sense when it was set up over a decade ago. Now, with as things have changed, they should be farther out west in Nevada, and for this particular entity, it was a nearly $70 million mistake.

   9. JBJeff Berman2:40

      Oof.

   10. SPSpeaker2:40

       But that's the thing is, is that the person that did this for them, they didn't make the wrong decision in real time. They took care of it, and then they left, right? The idea is constantly looking at it. That's where we can add value. This team is looking to analyze every element of their financial life and make an empirically optimized decision, and that gives people extraordinary peace of mind that they, they, they know they're gonna have, um, individuals that focus on this stuff all day long and not focus on trying to, to sell people bad stocks.

   11. JBJeff Berman3:12

       What is your mission? Why are you guys doing this work?

   12. SPSpeaker3:14

       Focusing on what we can control, looking at everything, you know, doing it right, not having a conflict of interest, and helping people, helping entities, you know, fulfill the dreams they want, you know, give to their family, give to charities. I mean, that's the most fantastic reward you can have, and that's the why behind it.

   13. JBJeff Berman3:33

       I deeply appreciate how, how mission-driven you are in that. Thank you so much for being with us, Jamie. It's such a pleasure to talk with you, and now on to the show.

3. 3:48 – 7:55

   From paralegal to KCRW volunteer to the founder's assistant

   1. JBJeff Berman3:48

      This is Masters of Scale. I'm Jeff Berman, your host, and I am so excited to be in Los Angeles today with my new friend, Jennifer Ferro. Um, Jennifer, I'm thrilled for you to be with us, as you've been leading KCRW, a legendary public media institution, through unprecedented, complex times with grace and grit and heart, and we have so much to discuss. Welcome to Masters of Scale.

   2. JFJennifer Ferro4:13

      Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

   3. JBJeff Berman4:15

      How did you start your career coming out of college?

   4. JFJennifer Ferro4:17

      Um, well, I think career is a, is a really big word for what it was. [laughs] I needed a job, so I worked for a criminal defense attorney during the kind of war on drugs and worked as a legal secretary and, and a paralegal.

   5. JBJeff Berman4:30

      What was it like being a, a paralegal back in the early '90s in, in that war on drugs era?

   6. JFJennifer Ferro4:35

      I mean, it was, it was a very, you know, big education on the way the world really works, especially for people who don't have money and who are doing what they felt they needed to do to survive and how they were just swept up in a lot of, um, a lot of politics.

   7. JBJeff Berman4:52

      As you know and as our regular listeners know, um, I started my career as a public defender, and o- one of the most valuable lessons for me from my five years doing that work is how to, uh, fight when you are radically under-resourced. You're going up against one of the most powerful forces in the world, and you are so radically under-resourced that you just have to be scrappy. It's almost the best possible training for startup life.

   8. JFJennifer Ferro5:17

      That's true. That's true. And also, you have to get over the fact that things aren't fair.

   9. JBJeff Berman5:21

      Hmm. Yeah.

   10. JFJennifer Ferro5:22

       Which I think is really important. Like, when you, when you're raised a certain way or you look at the world a certain way, you're just like, "But wait, that's not fair."

   11. JBJeff Berman5:28

       So how did you make the jump from a paralegal to a local criminal defense lawyer to KCRW? It's not the obvious step.

   12. JFJennifer Ferro5:36

       Yeah. I would listen to KCRW. I loved KCRW. I was like, "Wow, this is where smart people hang out," and I wanted to be where smart people were. And so I started volunteering at KCRW, and KCRW at that time had a very robust volunteer program.

   13. JBJeff Berman5:50

       Mm.

   14. JFJennifer Ferro5:50

       So a lot of things, a lot of jobs were done by volunteers, really devoted people. And then just being around people who were so welcoming and kind and really committed to just good things, and I was like, "This is where I wanna be." I just quit, and I started volunteering full-time at KCRW, and I was like, "Something will happen."

   15. JBJeff Berman6:09

       How did you transition from being a volunteer at KCRW to actually being on staff there?

   16. JFJennifer Ferro6:14

       Okay, well, another kind of ridiculous story, but, um, I, uh- So part of my, you know, doing odd jobs to make rent, um, I got hired by the general manager and the founder of KCRW to transcribe this radio show.

   17. JBJeff Berman6:29

       And for our younger audience, there was no granola back then. We're not, we're not dealing with, with AI being able to transcribe in real time. Literally, you are doing the transcription.

   18. JFJennifer Ferro6:38

       Yes.

   19. JBJeff Berman6:38

       Yeah.

   20. JFJennifer Ferro6:39

       It was manual. And, but I had used my credit card and bought a laptop on cash advance. This was when Apple laptops were the first Apple laptop. And so when I went into Ruth Seymour's office, the founder, and I shared her this report I did, and she saw my laptop, and she's like, "What is that?" And I'm like, "Oh, this is a laptop." She was so impressed with it. So anyway, we talked. I left her office, and her assistant walked in and sat down and said, "I'm moving to the, the Peace Corps. I'm going to Cameroon, and I'm quitting." And so she said, "Oh my God, I need an assistant. Go get that girl with the laptop." So she sent someone to run down after me. [laughs] And she offered me a job right on the spot to be her assistant.

   21. JBJeff Berman7:20

       And what'd you say?

   22. JFJennifer Ferro7:21

       Well, at first I said, "I don't wanna be an assistant. I don't wanna be a secretary. I went to college." Um, but then I thought, "What, who am I kidding? I have no other prospects, and I love this place."

   23. JBJeff Berman7:30

       Hmm.

   24. JFJennifer Ferro7:31

       So I took the job.

   25. JBJeff Berman7:32

       How long were you Ruth's assistant?

   26. JFJennifer Ferro7:34

       Uh, just two years because I'd had that same thing where I said to her, "Look, I didn't go to college to be an assistant. I have to go start a career, so I'm gonna leave." And then she said, "Well, what if you stayed here? What would you do?"

   27. JBJeff Berman7:45

       Hmm.

   28. JFJennifer Ferro7:45

       And I said, "Oh, you need a number two," because people were really afraid of her. I was not. So people would come and talk to me, and I would kind of, you know, whisper

4. 7:55 – 9:58

   Why fighting with the founder paid off

   1. JFJennifer Ferro7:55

      to her, figure her out. And she's like, "Okay, yeah, you can do that." [laughs]

   2. JBJeff Berman7:59

      That's a new job in, in the legacy organization.

   3. JFJennifer Ferro8:02

      Yeah.

   4. JBJeff Berman8:02

      How, how did it work?

   5. JFJennifer Ferro8:03

      So I mean, what ended up, I mean, all credit to her, um, RIP, but she not only built this really unusual entity, KCRW, but she also was so, um, welcoming to me. So we fought all the time. That was kinda, I realized later, that was her love language. I would leave every day and go, "Oh, I'm gonna get fired," you know? And then, but she liked that because people were, she liked people to tell the truth to her, but she's so smart, big personality, and people would cower from her. But I was too young to understand that I should be doing that to keep my job. So she would just keep me in on every decision. She would sit me in her office and tell me these stories, and sometimes I'd say, like, "This is my job, is listening to her tell-

   6. JBJeff Berman8:45

      Hmm

   7. JFJennifer Ferro8:45

      ... these tales." However, what I realize now is, you know, I may not have had that, you know that phrase, like, you don't have a seat at the table, but you're in the room? I was in the room for everything, and I under- I started to learn how she made decisions and why. It was invaluable.

   8. JBJeff Berman9:00

      How long did you do that?

   9. JFJennifer Ferro9:02

      I think 16 years.

   10. JBJeff Berman9:03

       That's a long time.

   11. JFJennifer Ferro9:04

       [laughs] I know. Yeah.

   12. JBJeff Berman9:07

       You strike me as someone who doesn't lack for ambition in a good way. I don't say that critically at all. Why was it comfortable doing that job for 16 years?

   13. JFJennifer Ferro9:16

       It's such a unique space. Um, it is the largest door opener to culture in Los Angeles. Music, food, politics, policy, anything. If you're interested in anything, um, KCRW is a door opener for you to learn more about it, and so I'm addicted to that. I'm a really curious person. I love to learn things myself, personally, and I also, it was a place where I could have a big effect. You know, I felt like I was able to make things happen. I think KCRW is just so singular.

   14. JBJeff Berman9:53

       How big is KCRW now? How many employees do you have?

   15. JFJennifer Ferro9:56

       Um, we have about 140.

5. 9:58 – 11:18

   Broccoli vs. chocolate cake

   1. JBJeff Berman9:58

      What makes KCRW different from other public radio stations? Because you're right. I mean, whether it's, it's going back to Jonathan Gold, the iconic, um, Los Angeles food critic, uh, or it's Left, Right and Center, I mean, KCRW, um, has made such a mark not just in LA but nationally with, with the programs that it has, um, uh, created and produced and distributed.

   2. JFJennifer Ferro10:20

      You know, I think it just comes from this notion that, um, we don't put ourselves in any kind of box. We don't assume, oh, we're public radio, so we should be a little bit boring, and I think it's like a mindset. You know, I think when a lot of public radio shifted, and I think, I'm glad they did, and I'm really supportive of it, but there's this real big focus on journalism with a capital J and being the local news source and kind of replacing the newspaper in a lot of towns, which again, absolutely valuable and critical. But I think what happened in that transition is we forget about all the other parts of the newspaper that people used to read.

   3. JBJeff Berman10:55

      Hmm.

   4. JFJennifer Ferro10:55

      And some of them are playing games or reading comics so they could laugh, or finding out where movies or which movies to see and where to eat and things like that. That's the part that KCRW really embraces because we know that people want that. And so there's like the broccoli and the, and the chocolate cake. We are like, we try to lean to the chocolate cake.

   5. JBJeff Berman11:14

      Well, and sometimes you're broccoli just with a really nice cheese on top or something like

6. 11:18 – 12:29

   The power of saying "this is boring"

   1. JBJeff Berman11:18

      that, right?

   2. JFJennifer Ferro11:18

      That's true. Yeah, exactly.

   3. JBJeff Berman11:19

      Um, so much of this is touch and taste. Um, what has made KCRW so, so good at being successful over and over and over again, particularly across categories, which, you know, is extremely rare for a media organization to do?

   4. JFJennifer Ferro11:33

      The thing that Ruth Seymour taught me was, um, you know, she was a person who really didn't care what other people thought of her, which is a very, it's like a superpower.

   5. JBJeff Berman11:43

      Yeah.

   6. JFJennifer Ferro11:43

      It's also not so great sometimes, but it's a superpower in making decisions. And when it comes to, you know, talent and work product or artistic expression, it can be really hard to tell someone, "This isn't meeting the mark," you know? But I think, um, having that feeling and that, that culture of knowing, like- This is important, and you have to make hard decisions sometimes, and you have to move on from things that didn't work out and try new things. So I think, you know, it's that, it's that kinda dedication to being really honest. Like, you know, we can all tell ourselves that, like, "Well, this show's interesting because it's about the environment," or whatever, um, but it's really kind of a bore. It's really im- it's powerful to be able to say, "This is boring." [laughs]

7. 12:29 – 15:40

   Building community, not just content

   1. JBJeff Berman12:29

      Yeah. Yeah. When you started at KCRW, radio was radio. As the medium of radio has evolved to be radio plus podcasting plus video plus Lord knows what else, how have you adapted, and how has KCRW adapted to, to meet the changing moment?

   2. JFJennifer Ferro12:45

      Yeah. Well, that's a big one. I mean, it's probably our biggest challenge ever. And so I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about federal funding and stuff like that, that being a challenge, but I think the biggest challenge is this audience shift. And so, like you said, when radio was radio, there was a finite number of, you know, stations and possibilities. And if you wanted to consume media, you had two choices, like five television stations and, you know, in LA, maybe 80 radio stations. And then, you know, when you were in the car, that was your only media that, that was live and, and available to you and easy to use. And so now it's like, it's really about changing from the focus being on making the media to really building the community. And I think for us, because we, we are, um, supported by members, so we do care about who's s- who's in our audience. We want people who will actually love us enough to support us, that, um, the focus now is really on, um, what is it that we're doing that can build a, a community that will stay together and care about you enough to support you when there's so many choices?

   3. JBJeff Berman13:54

      Okay, so let's go back. So 16 years as assistant GM to Ruth. What happens that you take the GM title?

   4. JFJennifer Ferro14:01

      [laughs] Well, Ruth Seymour retired, [laughs] so that was the main thing. I had to apply and win the job. Um, but she did something really powerful. She said, "I am going to... I'm not gonna sit on the board. I'm gonna disappear-

   5. JBJeff Berman14:16

      Hmm

   6. JFJennifer Ferro14:16

      ... because I want the next person to take over this, this place and have the same freedom that I had." That was what she gifted to me. So that was fantastic. I think a lot of times founders will stay on a board. She was like, "No, I'm not gonna do that." And she, she didn't call me. She just said, "If you need me, call me, but I'm not gonna call you," and it was a big, huge gift to me.

   7. JBJeff Berman14:39

      What was the biggest thing that you changed from Ruth's era when you came into the leadership job?

   8. JFJennifer Ferro14:44

      I [laughs] was, I was gonna say I was a lot nicer. Um, so that was-

   9. JBJeff Berman14:48

      I think that may be the answer.

   10. JFJennifer Ferro14:49

       [laughs]

   11. JBJeff Berman14:50

       Hey, folks, if you're enjoying this episode of Masters of Scale, then I would highly recommend you join us for the Masters of Scale Summit this October 20th to 22nd in San Francisco. Each year's summit features some of the most iconic names in business, in technology, and culture, sharing with us what it takes to lead in unprecedented times, and this year may be our strongest stage yet. Kara Swisher, Cloudflare's Matthew Prince, Netflix's Reed Hastings, Tubi's Anjali Sud, Replit's Amjad Masad, futurist Amy Webb, author Adam Grant, alongside our very own Reid Hoffman. Be in the room this year to hear what it means to lead with agency and build the future we want to see. Join us. Visit mastersofscale.com/summit.

8. 15:40 – 17:35

   Why trusted media matters more than ever

   1. JBJeff Berman15:40

      We live in an era of, uh, unprecedented, at least because of the means by which it can be communicated, misinformation and disinformation. We're dealing with propaganda spreading at a rate that the world has never seen before. How do you think about KCRW's role in countering that?

   2. JFJennifer Ferro15:58

      Yeah. I think it's really important, and I think that, you know... So we've talked before about, like, the change in audience behavior and the fact that people have many other choices, and radio is not a growth medium. It's a very valuable and powerful medium, but it's not where you're gonna find or attract your new audience. But I think that's where KCRW's transition has been the most powerful, is really under- understanding ourselves as this community resource, and not just for LA, but for all of the country. Um, but as a, you know, the, the brand of public radio is one that you know that these are p- these are people committed to serving the community. That's it. We're not here to make money, to sell your data, to get you to buy something. We're just giving you information and trying to make your life better. And in a world that we live in where literally every other aspect of media is controlled by the new kind of almost oligarchs [laughs] of, of the world, it's powerful to have that and to know it exists. And I think that what we watch is, like, you know, listening behavior changing or habits changing. So maybe people aren't with us every single day, but those who know of us know they can completely and implicitly trust us. Having those things in the world is, is more critical than ever right now because you just don't... Where do you turn? You know, whatever channel that you are consuming media on, it can be manipulated or has been manipulated. Having, you know, public media in the, in the country is cr- is critical for that as a, as a backstop, um, to, as a place that you can turn to find out what's real.

9. 17:35 – 26:22

   Life after federal funding

   1. JBJeff Berman17:35

      Yeah. And, and you've got this weird paradox where on the one hand you're labeled by some parties as, quote-unquote, "state media," and on the other hand, you're dealing with a massive federal funding battle, um, which I have to imagine has impacted you to some extent. How, how do you deal with that tension?

   2. JFJennifer Ferro17:50

      Well, I mean, I think the great thing is that we were never state media. Um, and I think when you look at the original Public Broadcasting Act that Johnson passed, this was for the good of the country. And, and the, kind of the language that's in there is, is so powerful when you think about it in today's world that we're in, which is, like, to elevate voices that aren't heard, to be this resource for the country. I have a colleague who's no longer in public media, but he used to say, "We need a public internet. There's public television, public radio, we need a public internet." And when he first said it, I was like, "What are you talking about? The internet is public." But it's not public, right? It's controlled and owned and manipulated by others. Um, and I do think that we need these spaces like public parks and public libraries where they are here for the good of the people. We still have that mentality 100%, and we're probably more devoted to that than ever, um, without federal funding. And what federal funding did was, you know, it was 5% of our budget. It was like 30% of a, a place like Marfa Public Radio, um, in Marfa, Texas, which is a tiny community, but the radio signals cover 30,000 square miles, and they reach people with literally no media and no cell service. And so why not have something that actually serves everyone? It's incredible. Um, and so, you know, we're more devoted, like I said, than ever. And, and frankly, there's something freeing about not having the federal funding because, um, you don't have to be in that conversation anymore, you know, 'cause the charges about public media being liberal, those, those are really old. Um, and it was m- you know, it used to be focused on Big Bird, and then it got focused on NPR. But, um, it, it really couldn't be more true. I mean, I think, you know, the notion of what liberal is is ultimately being open and interested and curious about lots of different ideas. That is the kind of the opposite of the word conservative. So I think that's where public media has always been. Um, but when you think about the contributions that it's made to America and society, I mean, I was a kid who grew up on Sesame Street. I learned all kinds of things before I got to kindergarten. How amazing to take a media that could make a, you know, turn children into little monsters, but also can turn children into these completely educated, interested to, you know, little beings. I mean, it's, it's powerful. So yeah, I think, I think the federal funding thing, it, it's a relief to be out of the political football and spending time on the Hill and talking to Republicans and saying, "You know that we represent your community, and your voice gets on this channel, and you're talking to your voters." And privately, they would say like, "Oh, I know. It's really important to me." Um, but publicly, they'd toe this line that said we were biased and things like that.

   3. JBJeff Berman20:45

      Yeah, I mean, this idea that concepts such as, like, inclusivity and kindness and, um, fairness are radical leftist ideas that are being promulgated by this, this dangerous entity of public media is sort of insane. It's-

   4. JFJennifer Ferro20:58

      Yeah

   5. JBJeff Berman20:58

      ... it is-- These are neither liberal nor conservative concepts. These are deeply rooted concepts in, in, in, across our society. Um, Jen, a, a few years ago, you took on an additional challenge of chairing the NPR board of directors. You, you seem like you have a pretty full plate. Why did you decide to do that?

   6. JFJennifer Ferro21:16

      Well, I was on the board for a number of years, and, um, you know, when you criticize something, you should just run it and do it yourself. So, no, anyway, I, I, you know, it, it was a opportunity to, I think, build cohesion in our public radio system at a time when we were under huge challenges. And I-- You know, it's funny. Inside our system, we think we're really different. Um, of course we're not, right? People think NPR, public radio, uh, they're interchangeable terms, KCRW interchangeable. But yet individually, um, it can be like herding cats. I saw that what we were approaching was a big leadership change at NPR and increasing Republican attacks against our, our brand, our industry, everything. And so I was very interested in trying to build something that could lead, ho- hopefully lead NPR and, and public radio to a better place.

   7. JBJeff Berman22:15

      Jen, the, the federal funding cut is one thing. Um, to your point, if it's 5% of your budget and you have a large base, and you can probably find a way to make up for that, you know, with some pain, but not too much difficulty. If you are Marfa, Texas, and you cover 30,000 square miles, and it's 30% of your budget, um, boy, that sounds like a much tougher, uh, putt. What has happened across the member station universe, uh, since the federal funding cut?

   8. JFJennifer Ferro22:41

      I mean, what we're seeing happen, first of all, there was a big fundraising effort, um, outside, kind of adjacent to our industry that ended up creating this bridge fund that allowed a lot of stations two years of runway. So that was really huge, and a lot of big foundations nationally came in to support that. So we haven't seen the kind of market forces that we would have seen normally by s- the September of that one year where we lost the funding. But what we're starting to see is the large stations, so there's probably like 12 to 15 stations that have budgets that are larger than $15 million.

   9. JBJeff Berman23:13

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JFJennifer Ferro23:13

       There's a, there's a lot of very tiny, uh, stations. But the larger ones are looking at, um, regional leadership, stepping into both, uh, work with all the other, say, stations in their state to figure out how could they provide either back-end services or acquisitions or something like that that allows us to have that same kind of public service coverage across the country but takes away some of the expenses that maybe they don't have to spend. So we're starting to see that now. I don't know what that will look like. The thing that I think it will happen soon is the notion that, you know, you can, you can work really hard to protect what you used to have, or you can look at the other big forces that are happening around you and look to say, "Okay, how can we adapt to those?"

   11. JBJeff Berman24:03

       Jen, let's fast-forward a couple of years. Um, uh, we've had a paradigm shift in federal government, and Republicans and Democrats come together and say, "You know what? This was a mistake. We really should be funding public media in the US much more robustly." Um, would you say yes?

   12. JFJennifer Ferro24:19

       I mean, yes, I would, even though I have, you know, issues with it. But yeah, I think America deserves to have a source of information and a community resource that is funded, that is funded and supported for everyone. The amount of money that public radio and public television got from the federal government was like budget dust. It was insignificant. Um, and, and I think, you know, as a matter of principle, just like we have public libraries and public parks, we should have a public media, a source that you know is not manipulated by AI, is not controlled by some oligarch. Yeah, we deserve that. So I'm adamant and like dog-- yes, let's do it. Um, as much as, as it was a pain in the butt, um, I don't think we should give up on that. And I think one thing that's really interesting is when that rescission effort happened... So remember, this was, you know, this, this rescission effort for USAID and public radio happened at the same time, and it was supposed to be the canary in the coal mine and the beginning of many, many rescissions to come. We have not seen any yet. But what was interesting was public television and public radio lobbied so hard with all of our, um, representatives, which include many Republicans. We were almost gonna defeat that in the House. That was gonna be defeated in the House, but four Democrats did not show up to vote. And when Republicans saw that they weren't gonna pass it, they switched sides. It was unprecedented in this environment right now because so many Republicans understood their constituents, and they know people are like, "I want my kids to see Big Bird. You know, I want my kids to-- I want myself-- I wanna learn things about the world, and I wanna hear the voices of my community." So I think there's, there's an opportunity to make something really powerful with this spirit. Um, do I think it's gonna happen? I do not. I mean, Roe versus Wade, you know, that has been-- how long has that been overturned? And that hasn't come back even though a majority of the country actually supports that.

   13. JBJeff Berman26:11

       Yeah.

   14. JFJennifer Ferro26:12

       So-

   15. JBJeff Berman26:12

       Significant majority, super majority of the country. Yeah.

   16. JFJennifer Ferro26:14

       So it's like I don't, I don't think that Congress can actually do anything like this. [laughs]

   17. JBJeff Berman26:19

       Not yet. Not yet.

   18. JFJennifer Ferro26:19

       Not y- not yet, but I'll try. I'm gonna keep trying, go

10. 26:22 – 33:44

    Fixing the outrage machine

    1. JFJennifer Ferro26:22

       down the Hill-

    2. JBJeff Berman26:22

       Keep hope alive

    3. JFJennifer Ferro26:23

       ... and keep, keep doing it.

    4. JBJeff Berman26:24

       Jen, I have a sixteen-year-old who is extremely online, and, um, thank goodness, uh, he is quite media literate because he'll assert something, and I'll ask him his source, and he now knows that TikTok is not a source. The account on TikTok might be. If it's KCRW on TikTok, that's, that's one thing. Um, uh, but we live in this world where the, um, you know, now trillion-dollar companies that control these algorithms are incentivized to drive engagement, and engagement happens more when we are outraged and, and we are inflamed, um, and cortisol is spiking. Um, uh, and yet fact-based media, um, uh, a lot of the places where, um, this should be redundant, but objective truth [laughs] lives, um, a- and I do believe that's such a thing, uh, is, it's harder to engage people that way. So when you talk about, for example, public internet or new paradigms, um, a- again, we're, we're sort of giving you a, a magic wand and, and huge power. What would you design so that we as Americans are engaging more with fact-based media and less with the outrage machine?

    5. JFJennifer Ferro27:36

       I mean, first of all, I think that fact-based media needs to spend a lot of money on marketing. [laughs] Um-

    6. JBJeff Berman27:42

       Call it something other than fact-based media.

    7. JFJennifer Ferro27:43

       Yes.

    8. JBJeff Berman27:43

       Maybe we'll start there.

    9. JFJennifer Ferro27:44

       Yes, that's does not sound good. Doesn't sound like chocolate cake in any way. And I think that, that, you know, again, on, on the side that we can control, I think that we have to make a product that's just as interesting and exciting. But on, on the other side, I think there is... I do believe that the, the companies and the organizations that control these pipelines, that they can manipulate, um, in positive or negative ways owe it to the society to create a space that is free from that. Um, if they are going to own the pipes and they're gonna hold on to those, that ownership, then there does need to be a space that we can have for people that is designed not to harm. Um, I think the whole thing should be like that, but, uh, that's out the window. It doesn't necessarily generate the same amount of revenue. Um, and then I think that there's, you know, I don't know what it would look like, but this notion of a public pipeline, a public internet is a really, you know, interesting concept. And again, I, you know, it's hard to get people to move off platforms, et cetera, but I, I think just having that shows that you care about the, the people that you lead, you know? Um, and I do think it's interesting watching media change. Like you, you have, like on the radio side, we're controlled by the FCC. It is an agency of the government, and it has rules and standards, and we can violate them and lose our privilege. I don't see that anywhere in today's modern pipelines. And I, uh, you know, I, I don't think it's been for the good. You know? I think we can all point to something that shows, wow, no one's minding this store. You know? We're just okay with letting children see these things or letting people, in a sense, get poisoned by some stuff. I mean, there's a lots of great things. I, I love looking at squirrel houses on Instagram. I'm so down for that. But, you know, there's also a lot of really negative stuff, and, and I think once the society throws their children to the wolves, it's like, is this really, is this really where we wanna be? And I, I, I think a government's role is to, is to protect.

    10. JBJeff Berman30:03

        Yeah. I mean, it's, it's complicated in so many ways, right? But, um, when you and I were growing up, we had three or potentially four television networks, and you had the nightly news. In, in, in our house, we had NBC and Tom Brokaw on. When I was much younger, it was Walter Cronkite and CBS. Um, and you got what felt like the news. this was what mattered in the world. And the reality is, it is what a bunch of men who look a lot like me decided was relevant to the world and was presented through their lens. And so part of the promise of the internet and of this massive fragmentation of media is this diversity of viewpoints and, you know, news and information opinions that never would have made its way onto Tom Brokaw's broadcast making it to your device. Um, the downside is everything else that we're dealing with, which is pretty extreme. And so what I hear you sort of advocating for is almost a third way, which is sure, let a thousand flowers bloom, let a hundred million flowers bloom, and let's also have a corridor where there is a more trusted set of data coming to and, and maybe more, um, modulated, if not moderated set of data coming through. Is that, is that how you would say it?

    11. JFJennifer Ferro31:19

        Yeah, definitely. And I, I also think that, um, you know, there's, there's a lots of things in the world that have public parts and then private parts. There's bookstores and there's libraries, you know, and both coexist really nicely and people make decisions, um, based on what they need. I don't know. I mean, I don't, I don't wanna s- be a big advocate of government regulation necessarily, but I do feel that our society is better when we have spaces that are designed just to make people's lives better. That's it. And if that means, you know, healthcare for some, if it means preschool for others, um, or opportunities for, for free education, those are, those are good things for society in general. And that's what I, I would love to have. And then in order to scale that, I think, you know, the people who are making that, the media that's on those platforms has to make it good. And I think just because it's public doesn't mean it needs to be boring. [laughs]

    12. JBJeff Berman32:19

        Well, that sounds like a perfect place to wrap. Thank you for being on Masters of Scale.

    13. JFJennifer Ferro32:22

        Oh, yeah, absolutely. This was so fun.

    14. JBJeff Berman32:24

        Thanks again to Jennifer Ferro for joining us. The way she leads KCRW offers so many valuable lessons for any of us who want to scale the reach of facts in an increasingly algorithmically controlled misinformation and disinformation driven world. Let's not compromise our integrity, but also let's not be boring. Jennifer Ferro is definitely not boring, and she is most certainly high integrity. I so appreciate the work that she's doing in the world, and I so appreciate you being here as part of our community. I'm Jeff Berman. Thank you for listening. Masters of Scale is a WaitWhat original. Our executive producer is Eve Troeh. Senior supervising producer is Trisha Bobida. Associate producer is Masha Makhtenina. Video editor is MG Frederick. Senior talent executive is Stephanie Stern. Mixing and mastering by the audio boys themselves, Aaron Bessenelli and Brian Pugh, with original music by the remarkable Ryan Holiday. Visit mastersofscale.com to find the transcript for this episode and to subscribe to our newsletter, and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel. [outro music]

Episode duration: 33:44