Grit is not enough: Angela Duckworth on how to change your situation

Angela Duckworth 0:00 When human beings think about what determines behavior, they think intentions determine behavior. That's not wrong, but what social psychologists will point out, we make an error when we forget about how powerful the situation is. I was astonished. I have never seen, in all of my years of studying companies, a culture where unvarnished negative feedback was taken with such maturity and even enthusiasm. I'm sure a lot of people hate me for saying so many, you know, negative things about working, you know, in your home office, um, all day, and I know there are upsides, but I have to say, I have so many misgivings about it. The NFL may be, you know, the last bipartisan community builder we have. You know, so whether you're red or blue, like, you know, E-A-G-L-E-S, go Eagles. Like, so-

Jeff Berman 0:50 Oh, Angel, please no.

Angela Duckworth 0:51 [laughs]

Jeff Berman 0:51 No, no, no, we can't, we can't. No, no, no. That's where you gotta cut it.

Angela Duckworth 0:54 Blasphemy.

Jeff Berman 0:54 We can't, we can't have that.

Angela Duckworth 0:55 We're like, okay, we're gonna edit that out. [laughs]

Jeff Berman 0:57 [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 0:58 I gotta... You know, fly Eagles fly. I'm a, I'm a Philly girl. [upbeat music]

Jeff Berman 1:09 This is Masters of Scale. I'm Jeff Berman, your host. I am thrilled to be joined today by Angela Duckworth. Angela is a brilliant psychology professor and co-director of the Penn Wharton Behavior Change for Good Institute. With millions of copies sold, it's a good bet that her first book, Grit, is already on your shelf. She's now back with a fascinating follow-up. Angela, welcome back to Masters of Scale.

Angela Duckworth 1:33 It is good to be back, and it's good to be talking to you again, Jeff.

Jeff Berman 1:35 It is great to be talking to you. It occurred to me that maybe you perceived that the market over-corrected toward Grit-

Angela Duckworth 1:43 Hmm

Jeff Berman 1:44 ... and Situated almost reads as a response to that over-correction. Is that a fair way to talk about why Situated is such an important follow-up to Grit?

Angela Duckworth 1:52 Jeff, I think that the idea of the second book is maybe not a correction of Grit, but it is a completion. I mean, I'm a psychologist who will always be obsessed with achievement. I think the completion of the story of Grit says that for all the things that we need to work on, so that the inside game, you know, our mental game, our mindsets, our, our attitudes, our assumptions, our goals, the way we think about our goals, um, our habits, the inside game is always going to be important. If there's a message of Grit, it's that effort matters, and effort matters arguably more than natural talent. If there's a message of this second book, I mean, you can call it a sequel, in some ways, as we'll discuss, it may be a prequel, the outside game matters too because all of that effort pays off more and is more rational in some ecosystems, in some environments, in some cultures, in some places, with some people, and less so in others. And I, I think if you're gonna achieve your potential, you need to master both the inside game and the outside game, but I, I don't think, you know, either negate the other.

Jeff Berman 2:59 There's the story in the book of Cody Coleman, which I, I, I'm gonna ask you to, to share a little bit about Cody.

Angela Duckworth 3:06 I met Cody Coleman through an email that he sent over the transom on a day in May 2013. [laughs] This, at that time, stranger sends me an email that introduces himself as a, as a senior at MIT studying computer science and electrical engineering, and he's apparently watched my TED Talk, and he feels compelled to tell me that the journey he's taken from being born in a prison, uh, near Trenton, New Jersey, to be graduating from MIT with a nearly perfect GPA in the hardest majors that you can have at MIT, that this is a story of grit. What happened next? Well, I... You know, an internship at Google, enrolling in the PhD program in computer science at Stanford, where he successfully earns his PhD, studying with some of the pioneers in artificial intelligence, and becoming the third Black recipient of a PhD in computer science in Stanford's entire history. He is a paragon of grit, but the reason he's, you know, very relevant to this conversation is that he's more than that. He has very strategically oriented himself to situations that make the most of his grit, and he will tell you that the only way you get exponential growth in your personal development is by leapfrogging from a good situation to a better one, and yet a better one, uh, and ever improving. And now he's, you know, the CEO of a AI startup called Coactive in San Jose.

Jeff Berman 4:42 And there's so much about Cody's story that stood out for me, but, um, as, as our regular listeners know, I started my career as a public defender, and one of my very first clients, uh, who I'll just call Brian here, I was heading out to the juvenile jail to meet with him for the first time. I'm reading through his file, um, and he's classified as extremely low IQ. Like, I'm worried that he's not going to understand what, what I'm doing, why he's locked up, what, what we're dealing with here. You know, I'm sitting down with him, uh, and, and I remember this like it's yesterday. It, it is almost 30 years ago that, uh, this, this first conversation with Brian happened. I'm explaining his rights to him, and I'm just... Angela, I'm so worried he doesn't get it, and he, he looks at me. He goes, "Is this what the Boston Tea Party was about?"

Angela Duckworth 5:28 [laughs]

Jeff Berman 5:30 And, and I go, "Oh, interesting. Say, say more." And he's like, "Well, 'cause, like, they, they didn't feel like they had their rights, and so they were fighting for their rights." And I was like, "Actually, yeah. Like, that's exactly right."

Angela Duckworth 5:42 [laughs] It took me a beat. I'm like, "Right."

Jeff Berman 5:44 Right.

Angela Duckworth 5:44 Yeah. [laughs]

Jeff Berman 5:44 Right. But, but that's why I was like, "Wait, say more."

Angela Duckworth 5:47 Yeah.

Jeff Berman 5:47 And, and-

Angela Duckworth 5:47 Yeah

Jeff Berman 5:47 ... you know, over my time representing him, I was like, this kid is absolutely not low IQ. This is a smart young man who, similar to Cody, was born into just absolutely awful circumstances and wasn't able to encounter the, the mentors or the, the, the people who could guide him out of it or change his circumstances. And he grew up eight miles from my home, where I grew up.

Angela Duckworth 6:10 Wow.

Jeff Berman 6:11 Right? I grew up in a home where, as you talk about in the book, I've got, you know, two parents, I've got a home full of books, I've got a dinner table with adults sitting around it talking about world events and national events, and I'm treated as an equal participant in those discussions. I'm in a, you know, world-class public school district, all of it. And it was the first time, um, in the context of my public defender work where it just landed how deeply, um, the accident of birth was for me. And so, like, the, the, the, the thing about Cody's story for me that stood out in this context is it is one thing to be able to change the small things in our lives. It's another thing to be able to achieve at this level, and I'm, I'm just curious what you take from Cody's story that can apply for people who do find themselves in extremely difficult circumstances, and what, what they can take from

Jeff Berman 7:03 it.

Angela Duckworth 7:03 You know, I was walking down a hill recently and, um, a more experienced hiker passed me by, and he turned around and he said, "Small steps, soft knees." And I thought, "That's good advice." And I think it's good advice when it comes to changing your situation. I think if you imagine the biggest change you could make, you quickly convince yourself that it's not possible. Are you gonna move where you live? Uh, are you gonna change where you work? You know, those are big decisions, and very few of us can make those decisions, um, you know, on a dime. Um, and the answer might very well be, no, it's not yet possible, actually. Um, but the small steps, soft knees advice is, you know, do anything. The soft knees part, I think, at least the way I'm taking it, I'm sure when you're downhill hiking on a sandy trail, it literally means just keep your sh- knees soft. But I, I think there's this, like, suppleness that we need, especially now. I mean, you know better than I do, Jeff, like, the world is, you know, changing under everyone's feet. Um, and so the, the suppleness you need, the, the ability to be agile, you know, to, to take small steps, but also to adjust, um, to trajectory correct as needed. When human beings think about what determines behavior, they think intentions determine behavior. You know, values determine behavior, character dev- determines behavior. That's not wrong, but what social psychologists will point out is that we make an error when we forget about how powerful the situation is. So I think wherever we are, we can ask ourselves not only, what can't I do, which is fine. You can make a very long list of all the things you cannot change about your situation, and I encourage you to do so. But if there is anything on the list of things that you can change, people you can spend more time with, objects that you can place far away or near if you're trying to, you know, remind yourself to do something. I think you should start, you know, working down the checklist and, you know, seeing how that changes everything.

Jeff Berman 9:08 Yeah. And, I mean, the other thing that Cody did, not, not all of us are gonna have the opportunity to be PhD students at Stanford. Um, but he did move to the center of the tech world. Um-

Angela Duckworth 9:18 [laughs]

Jeff Berman 9:19 ... and if you're gonna launch an AI company, you know, there is no better place literally in, in the known universe than, than the Bay Area to do it. Um, and you talk in the book about a, a, a word I've never heard of that puts name to a concept that I think we understand called agglomeration, where there, there are centers of excellence. And it also feels like you've almost created your own agglomeration at Penn, um, with Katie Milkman there, who's been on the show, with Adam Grant there, who's been on the show. I mean, the work that you all are doing helping us understand what motivates us, what, what creates change, how we live our best lives.

Angela Duckworth 9:55 You know, the way that Katie and Adam and I wrote our first paper together is we all live here, and I was taking one of my daughters to a dentist appointment at Penn Dental. And I had this, like, narrow window that I knew I had to be in the waiting room for some indeterminate time, and, like, literally, Adam Grant, Katie Milkman and I met in a corner of the Penn Dental, uh, office, you know, while my daughter got her teeth cleaned or something and, you know, hatched our, our first study together. And that co-location effect. You know, I know that there are many things to say about remote work, and that is its own complex topic. One of the things you lose when you are not physically in the same city, in the same room as other people, are those chance encounters and also those planned encounters where you get together and you hatch an idea. And I think that idea of agglomerations and the importance of place, um, I think it's important to emphasize now because sometimes people are like, "I can live anywhere. Um, I can work anywhere." And in some ways, that's factually true. It may not be the best thing for you.

Jeff Berman 11:04 Let's talk about remote work because I, I, you know, uh, Tricia and Masha, who are producing us today, are sick of hearing me talk about this. Um-

Angela Duckworth 11:11 What do you... I, I haven't heard your speech yet on remote work.

Jeff Berman 11:14 Well, I'm, I'm struggling with it because, you know, I mean, as, as you know, I've jumped from industry to industry. Part of my great good fortune has been, you know, the ability to sit in rooms and watch people who are far wiser, far more experienced than I am work, and to pick up what I can to apply to my own approaches to these things, but also to take the walk, to grab a, you know, a coffee or a tea after and ask all the dumb questions. And, you know, remote just makes that so hard to do, right? So what, what, what is it doing to us?

Angela Duckworth 11:44 I, I don't want to say that, like, every company should be, you know, five days in the office. I mean, that would be naive. I, I think that... Remote work, when it does work, is, uh, when there's a very intentional effort to bring people together physically, all in one place, in the same room, breathing the same air, and having a synchronous experience, but also having some leeway. You know, that informality, the sort of spontaneous conver- Like, when you're on a video call, at least if you're on a video call with me, there damn well better be an agenda because [laughs] I don't want to waste time. Um, but nobody puts on the agenda, like, eight minutes of kibitzing.

Jeff Berman 12:21 Right.

Angela Duckworth 12:21 You know? Um, but that's exactly what you do with a coffee machine.

Jeff Berman 12:24 I, I also really worry, you know, uh, uh, my kids I think are a little bit younger than yours, but they're in the same range as they're entering the work world soon. You know, what this is gonna mean for them, what it means for the, the more junior members of our team here and their own opportunities to grow and learn. And I, I guess I'm, I'm stuck because on the one hand I feel almost captive by own experience and how much I benefit- benefited from it. Um, and on the other hand, I'm trying to imagine how, how this can work in the new world, and maybe it's a lack of my own imagination for how to make it better. I wanna invite in a member of our team who is living the, the remote work life. Um, Masha Makutonina is a producer, um, uh, on Masters of Scale and, uh, works across the WaitWhat properties. She's awesome. And, um, I know she has a reaction to this every time we talk about it.

Angela Duckworth 13:14 Oh my gosh, this is so good.

Jeff Berman 13:16 So if it's okay, I'd like to invite Masha in.

Angela Duckworth 13:18 I approve. Love to hear what Masha has to say about remote work. [laughs]

Speaker 13:21 Hi, thank you so much. What you've shared about, uh, kind of the worries or the problems that, uh, young professionals like me are having, uh, really resonated as I was sitting in my bedroom right behind me, my bed.

Angela Duckworth 13:34 [laughs]

Speaker 13:35 The only job experience I've had so far has been remote. I am working from my bedroom. I am embarrassed by my hair because I just thought that I'm gonna work from home and no one is gonna see me today.

Angela Duckworth 13:47 Why brush my hair? [laughs]

Speaker 13:48 Why brush my hair? What is a behavior change that maybe someone like me could try?

Angela Duckworth 13:54 So how is it going first? Can I ask, Masha? Like, how do you feel about working remotely?

Speaker 13:58 It sucks. [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 14:00 [laughs] Tell me, tell me how it sucks.

Speaker 14:04 I feel like I try to be a good sport and kind of, you know, do my small talk on Slack, try to ke- have those, like, casual conversations or moments with my colleagues. Uh, but it is much easier to maybe choose to be off camera and hop off the call a little bit earlier. And then by the end of the day, I'm somehow feel a little isolated but drained-

Angela Duckworth 14:28 Yeah

Speaker 14:28 ... at the same time.

Angela Duckworth 14:30 Yeah.

Speaker 14:30 And so I try to maybe seek those connections out in the wild world, but I just feel like I've worked the whole day and I'm like, "Oh my God, like, now, like, what do I do? Uh, how do I force myself?" Almost like there's a word force.

Angela Duckworth 14:44 Yeah. It's interesting that you use the word force. Okay. Well, I have two ideas, and without knowing a whole lot about your particular situation, um, you can tell me how these land.

Speaker 14:53 Mm-hmm.

Angela Duckworth 14:54 I think, I think physically working in your bedroom all day is awful for most people. In-

Speaker 14:59 [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 14:59 ... in part because there is no transition. You know, there, there is no cue that, you know, now work is over. Oh, wait, now work has started. It's just one blur. So I think a physical transition to work is one idea. You can tell me whether it's a good idea or not. But that could mean, you know, working in a coffee shop with good Wi-Fi for much of your day-

Speaker 15:23 Mm-hmm

Angela Duckworth 15:23 ... or, you know, going to a WeWork type place. So I think a physical separation, you know, where you, like, put on different clothing, for example. You are not old enough to have watched Mister Rogers Neighborhood. Um, but Mister Rogers would always come in and he would take off his outside shoes and put on his inside shoes, and he would take off his outside jacket and put on his inside jacket. And the costumes that we put on to say, like, "Now I'm at work. Now I'm working out. Like, now I'm going to bed." I mean, with athleisure, it could be all the same outfit. Um, physically that might work, but psychologically I don't think it does. So you might consider these physical transitions that you can make that you don't have to make but you might choose to make. And the second option I would have for you is to, to go visit people. I would say of these coworkers that you would probably like to have, you know, a friendship with, uh, like, just go. Like, you know, go and, you know, do work in their city, uh, for a day and go out to dinner and then get on a plane and go home and make Jeff pay for it.

Speaker 16:26 [laughs] Love this. Thank you so much, Angela. I'm hearing intentionality, which sometimes requires discipline, but it sounds great.

Angela Duckworth 16:33 You know, changing your situation takes a little bit of willpower, but that little bit of willpower pays off. So I, I think if you can, you know, take those small steps in the first case, bigger step when you get on a plane, but like, you know, sure, it'll take a little willpower to get it organized, but I think it'll be worth the investment.

Jeff Berman 16:50 Well, the other note for me as an organizational leader is offering unlimited WeWork may not be enough. And, you know, the, what, what are the nudges that we can offer or the incentives that we can offer that make it easier for you, Masha, to, to get out of the home and go co-work with team members or with friends or what have you. And so, um, I, I think it's fair for you also to say, like, "I could use some help here. Um, and I appreciate you jumping on and asking Angela for her advice. And, um, you and I can work on this together to, to make things better."

Speaker 17:18 Yeah. Sounds good. Totally. I feel like it will require some experimentation.

Angela Duckworth 17:21 Yes. [laughs] Maybe. You have to keep me posted.

Jeff Berman 17:23 There we go.

Angela Duckworth 17:24 I'll give you a grade. [laughs]

Speaker 17:26 Please. Please. I love school.

Angela Duckworth 17:27 We'll make it pass, fail.

Jeff Berman 17:28 Awesome. Thanks, Masha.

Angela Duckworth 17:30 Thanks, Masha. So again, I'm sure a lot of people hate me for saying so many, you know, negative things about working, you know, in your home office, um, all day. And I know there are upsides, but I have to say I have so many misgivings about it. There was very recently a study in science, which is-

Jeff Berman 17:46 Mm

Angela Duckworth 17:47 ... the top journal, um, arguably in the field of all science, not just social science, but the hard sciences too. It was a study by economists on remote work. And what they did was they looked at professions that were easily, um, transitioning to remote because they were things that could be done through video calls and, you know- Google Docs and so forth, and compared them to professions where it was, like, nearly impossible. Like, it's just an in-person job. You have to be there physically. And when you look at the well-being of people who are employed in these different sectors, those who have, um, you know, been in sectors that are more likely to have gone remote are actually doing much worse than those who kind of in some ways are forced to be in person. So, um, yeah, that's the personal decision, but I, I think understanding how important social connection is is a big part of becoming, you know, situationally aware.

Jeff Berman 18:38 Before we get to the rest of our conversation today, I want to spend a moment sharing with you about Masters of Scale Summit, which returns to San Francisco this October 20th to 22nd. So many of us feel overwhelmed right now. Uh, it feels like so much of the world is, is careening and we don't have power, we don't have agency. That's the thing about the Masters of Scale Summit. It's really designed to remind us that we do have agency, agency to lead, agency to design, to build the relationships and the partnerships that empower us and to make the change that we want to see. We program a stage, we curate an audience, we set a schedule that builds in time for these relationships to be made and to grow so that by the time you leave Summit, you are fired out of a cannon, ready to run through walls to do better in the world with the agency that you actually have. I hope to see you there. Visit mastersofscale.com/summit.

Jeff Berman 19:37 You talk in the book about Coach Lad and De La Salle High School, which happens to be about 15 minutes from, from where I'm sitting today in Orinda, California, um, having this conversation with you, um, which, which had a, a pretty rough streak of losing seasons for a long time and then went on to rip off 151-game win streak, which is mind-boggling in, in any sport-

Angela Duckworth 19:58 If you understand football, you can tell, you're like, "Whoa."

Jeff Berman 20:00 Well, especially high school football, where your team's gonna turn over, I mean, literally every year you're graduating seniors. And I, I'd, I'd love for you to tell the story of how, how they built the culture there with commitment cards and the rituals around it, um, because we, we've already had a conversation about implementing it at WaitWhat, the company behind Masters of Scale, because it, it just struck me as so powerful.

Angela Duckworth 20:21 Coach Lad was, um, in his young 20s, uh, when he became the coach of the football team at De La Salle High School. It's a very small, modest Catholic school. I don't think they had ever had a winning season, uh, in their history as a school before Coach Lad joined. And how does he turn it into the football team with the longest streak in, in history? I mean, John Madden took time out of his career and his life to make a full documentary on De La Salle High School, uh, because he thought the phenomenon was that worthy. And it is all about culture. So what Coach Lad did was create a culture of peer accountability. You know, he discovered very early on as a coach and as a mentor that you can tell people what to do, but it doesn't work very well. Um, and you can try to keep the people who report to you, in this case, his players, accountable by, by the force of your authority because you are higher level than they are. But it's, it's not very s- it's not very effective. And so what he discovered was that there is no higher force, there is no higher court than the court of peer opinion. Um, and therefore, he tried to get a culture going where you play your heart out and you practice your heart out, not because the coach told you to, and not even to please the coach, but to please your fellow teammates. He had this commitment card idea. Actually, it was a, I think an assistant coach at the time, uh, who was working for Coach Lad who had this idea, but you know, together they ginned it up. You take a three-by-five blank index card and you as a player write down your goals for the next week. When you get to, you know, the end of writing this down, you end by saying, "I commit to," and then you name another player and you exchange cards with that other player. And for those next seven days, your peer, your teammate keeps you accountable. They watch you in the weight room. They watch you at practice, and they watch you on game day. And the following week, before you write your next commitment card, your partner stands up and they read out your goals to the whole team who's watching in reverent silence. And they'll say, you know, um, "Failed," "Succeeded," right? So you kind of get this report card on how you did last week. When I witnessed this commitment card ceremony, I was astonished. I have never seen in all of my years of studying companies a culture where unvarnished negative feedback was taken with such maturity and even enthusiasm. Nobody that I watched that evening actually got a perfect score. It was like, you know, these are hard goals. And I think if you can develop a culture where it's not only that you're accountable to your boss or your manager, but you have the esprit de corps and the formal rituals and structures to be accountable to another person who is at your peer level. I think that, and I think this is what Coach Lad would say, I think that is the magic of the De La Salle Spartans.

Jeff Berman 23:35 There's a beautiful photo in the book, um, because the other thing that Coach Lad did was have the players, the pair who've committed to each other, they walk out on the field for each game holding hands, um, which is such a, it was such a powerful visual to see young men fully suited up in their football gear, walking out holding hands, knowing that they've made these commitments to each other. It's so beautiful.

Angela Duckworth 23:58 I know that not everyone can make a field trip to conquer California and to spend a day with the De La Salle Spartans, but I feel like every leader would be changed if they did. I feel like the challenge of leadership is how to Create a culture with rituals, by the way, and I think those rituals are, um, elemental, that is not only high standards, high expectations, but also, uh, this kind of unconditional support. That magical combination is something whenever I see it, I know it, but I am not a leader, and I am always, um, just in, like [laughs] a kind of astonished admiration at the leaders who are able to achieve that.

Jeff Berman 24:39 Well, we, we can, we can agree to disagree that you're not a leader, but, um-

Angela Duckworth 24:42 [laughs]

Jeff Berman 24:43 ... I, I think where we, we will agree is we're in a moment where not just nationally, globally, the leadership that is being lauded is, um, doesn't just lack empathy and lack love, uh, and it, it doesn't even really have accountability. It's, it, it's, it's lionized for its cruelty. And when you look at these institutions that have built cultures where the foundation, um, i- is really the, the twins of, of love and empathy and, and accountability, real accountability, um, and you see how they flourish, w- why isn't that happening more nationally and globally, and why aren't we lionizing those leaders over those who, who lead with, with the lack of that?

Angela Duckworth 25:29 I wish I knew. I, I agree with you, and I don't have an answer. As a psychological [laughs] scientist who has studied human nature, individual differences for her whole career, I don't have an answer. Um, I wonder, Jeff, do you have a, like, a pet theory, even if you don't have evidence for it yet?

Jeff Berman 25:49 Well, I mean, I, I, some of it, I fear, goes back to the an- atomization of our society, right? We're living in these bubbles. We're, we're watching algorithmically driven media. We don't have, you know, the, the, the monoculture had its problems, right? It was a lot of people who frankly looked a lot like me who were deciding what you watched and what you read and what you engaged with. And so there's a lot of benefit to a world in which, um, we have far more diverse source, diverse sources of information, entertainment. Um, but you know, when, when you're, you know, spending hours a day on TikTok, we're products of our environment in really meaningful ways. And so I, I, I fear that that's some of it.

Angela Duckworth 26:28 And I agree with you. I mean, there, there are downsides of a monoculture. Um, there are freedoms of a culture where, like, everyone's doing their own thing. Frankly, they're doing it in different places at different times. Like, we're not experiencing, you know, the same perspectives. But there is a, a real cost. It's a dissolution of what Bob Putnam sometimes refers to as bridging capital. Um, he distinguishes between two kinds of social capital. Bonding capital is like you and your kith and kin, you know, the people that, you know, you really care about, and they're gonna bring you chicken soup when you're sick. And, um, and those are very important, and that's a big part of social connection. I think it's what people think of when they think of social connection. They want a best friend. They want a romantic partner. They want to spend more time with their friends. But there's another kind of social capital called bridging capital, and that is you and your neighbors, you and the people that you go to mosque, synagogue, or church with, like you and the people who, you know, happen to, like, frequent the same coffee shop. So these are not your kith and kin. They're not your, you know, close friends or family. But bridging capital is very important because that is where America has created the cohesion of, "I don't look like you. I don't talk like you. I may not have even voted like you, but I recognize you as a human. [laughs] Like, you know, we can still talk about the game on Monday. Like, we can still smile at each other and share a cup of coffee." And that is one reason why my husband and I go to church. I mean, especially he has made the argument because I whine sometimes. I hate to be in the car. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, the whole morning's gone." He was like, "Bridging capital, Bob Putnam, bridging capital." [laughs] Um, and I, and I think he's right. And as you know, despite recent trends, you know, attendance and, um, allegiance to religious institutions, those are among the institutions that are really on the, uh, on the decline. And so I do think some of these macro trends lead me to the conclusion, the default settings of the modern world, the situation, if you don't change it proactively, is not a healthy situation. If you're not proactive about putting yourself, you know, in places and with people that are good for you, the default settings are, are not necessarily going to, um, be for your best.

Jeff Berman 28:36 Couldn't agree more on the, on the, the third places, the, the religious institutions, the, the coffee shop where you go work, the office or what- whatever it might be. I'll tell you what gave me some hope earlier this summer was the World Cup.

Angela Duckworth 28:47 [laughs]

Jeff Berman 28:47 And, um, the experience not just of seeing, you know, the, the, the, the abject joy and, and people coming from outside the US and experiencing our country and seeing them, them fall in love with, you know, Buc-ee's or, um-

Angela Duckworth 29:02 And cheesesteaks

Jeff Berman 29:02 ... Waffle House or whatever it is.

Angela Duckworth 29:03 [laughs] Yeah.

Jeff Berman 29:03 Ch- cheesesteaks through, through their eyes. But, um-

Angela Duckworth 29:06 We were hosted Philly, yeah

Jeff Berman 29:07 ... my, my wife and I were in a, in a bar in Portsmouth, New Hampshire for the, the Cabo Verde-Argentina game.

Angela Duckworth 29:13 [laughs]

Jeff Berman 29:13 And I guarantee you 80% of the people in that bar never heard of Cabo Verde before the World Cup.

Angela Duckworth 29:18 [laughs]

Jeff Berman 29:18 And yet there we were, like, all rooting on, you know, this, this little team for this little country in their, in their David versus Goliath moment. Um, and we had instant community that night.

Angela Duckworth 29:30 Right. Isn't it amazing?

Jeff Berman 29:31 You know? It was awesome.

Angela Duckworth 29:32 Like, like, and it happens so fast. You're like, it's, it, like you feel it's like a chemical ch... Like, you're like, "What neuromodulator is going through my brain right now?" Like, it's It's tangible. I, I, I had a similar experience earlier on. We, we did not watch, you know, every game, um, but Philadelphia was a host, and, and just walking down the sidewalk and seeing people in their, you know, in their messy, you know, uh, you know, jerseys or, you know, whatever country. And, you know, it, there's this sort of like, you know, you look at each other, there's like a note of acknowledgement, like there's a smile. Yeah, that I think is, um, it is, it is hopeful. I have a colleague, um, Todd Rogers. So Todd's a big sports fan in addition to being a professor, um, uh, and a social scientist, um, at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government. Um, and he has lately been studying the NFL. And Todd has, um, you know, some empirical evidence suggesting that when people watch NFL games, they, they experience this kind of like social connection. Um, by the way, in some of his experiments, he, he gets people to do what they wouldn't do by default, which is to invite another person to watch the game with them in person at the same time. You know, so many people are just like watching it on their phone or their laptop or d- like by themselves. Um, you could even ask a person who just, you know, doesn't usually watch it with you, but they do live with you, but they don't usually watch it with you, and he looks pre and post and sees what happens. But Todd has convinced me that, you know, the NFL may be, you know, the last bipartisan community builder we have. You know, so whether you're red or blue, like, you know, E-A-G-L-E-S, go Eagles. Like, so-

Jeff Berman 31:03 Oh, Angela, please. No. No, no, no.

Angela Duckworth 31:05 [laughs]

Jeff Berman 31:05 We can't, we can't. No, no, no. That's where we gotta cut it.

Angela Duckworth 31:08 Blasphemy.

Jeff Berman 31:08 We can't, we can't have that.

Angela Duckworth 31:08 You're like, "Okay, we're gonna edit that out." [laughs]

Jeff Berman 31:10 [laughs]

Angela Duckworth 31:11 I gotta, you know, Fly Eagles Fly. I'm a, I'm a Philly girl. Um, but, uh, but also go Hawks, and yeah, like, uh, uh, they have my favorite teams. But anyway, I, I do think that gives you an example of what can happen. I also think that live events, you know, when we talk about situations that, um, are electric, that like there's almost something chemical that feels like it's happening, you know, the, the, the practice of going to concerts. If you asked me like 15 or 20 years ago, like, are gonna, are, are, is concert going, going to go up or down? I probably would've shorted concerts. I would be like, "Oh, you're kidding. You know, music's getting digitized. You can have it whenever you want. The fidelity's better." Like, yeah. You know what? I think people are craving that, um, that feeling of being in the audience with other people. Uh, it's sometimes called collective effervescence, the phenomenon of like joint attention, uh, to one thing happening, and then this like collective emotion that is... It's not just that y- you're feeling something, but everyone's feeling something, but you know that everyone's feeling something, and it really actually is, to me, like one of the things that explains why we are still going, uh, to concerts, and I hope it happens more. I hope there are... You know, the World Cup only comes, what, every four years? Um-

Jeff Berman 32:28 Every four years, and we don't get to host it every four years.

Angela Duckworth 32:31 Oh, yeah. That's so true. [laughs]

Jeff Berman 32:32 Unfortunately. Yeah.

Angela Duckworth 32:34 Yeah, it's not gonna be back in the United States for a long time, but, but could we take it as a hopeful example? I mean, I think people should do things. I think people should do things together. You wanna get situated, like get

Angela Duckworth 32:44 with other people.

Jeff Berman 32:45 I wanna close by asking you, um, because I think legally I'm required to ask you some question about AI, uh, uh, in this moment.

Angela Duckworth 32:51 [laughs] It's in your contract.

Jeff Berman 32:53 Um, it's in, it's in... Yes, it's, uh, there's a law somewhere. Um, but I wanna ask you a specific question about AI. I- in the more op- optimistic versions of an AI-driven future, we're working less, uh, and, and generating even more output. Um, and so I wanna focus on one of those more optimistic visions of, of that future. And in the event that we really are able to go down to a, a four-day work week or a three-day work week or a, a six-hour workday, and we do have that much more free time, how do you envision the use of that time, um, that found time in a way that can actually benefit us and propel our country in a, in a better direction?

Angela Duckworth 33:34 I'll tell you what I hope it isn't, and then I'll tell you what I hope it is. I hope it isn't, you know, what we now do with a lot of our free time, which is just, you know, fill it with, um, amusements like entertainment, like just, you know, things that make you smile or laugh for a few minutes and then just like, you know, it's like the morning dew. It's like evaporates and it's gone. I mean, that is how Americans are spending a lot, I think maybe the majority of their time, just like scrolling, watching, you know, um, doesn't add up to very much. It is the nature of human nature to work. Um, and that doesn't mean paid work necessarily. That doesn't mean that, you know, we all should be working 12 hours a day. But when I say it is the nature of human nature to work, what I mean is that it is part and parcel of our DNA to chase goals, to s- have aims, to try to go from here to there. That's what a goal is. A goal is the desired state of the world that you are trying to achieve, and we all know people who've retired and become abjectly miserable because now they have everything that they always thought they wanted, no responsibility, no deadlines, um, no checklists, just, you know, leisure. Um, that's what happened to my own father. Uh, he always said to me in the years before retirement, "When I retire, I'm going to do nothing." That is what my dad did, and he was never more depressed [laughs] um, than when he left his, you know, 35-year, uh, career at DuPont. So what I hope it is is that we fill the time that we have, should this scenario come to pass, with work of some kind, that something that is meaningful to us, a goal that we're trying to achieve. Maybe that is leisure related for some people, but it's not, um, it's not amusement. Um, it's not like nothing, you know? It's not only that nature abhors a vacuum, it's that happiness abhors a vacuum. When the Founding Fathers said that, you know, w- we have a country where there is life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, I always thought, you know, life, yup, liberty, yup. It's the happiness of pursuit. I think people are their happiest when they're starting a podcast, when they're trying to become a better writer, when they're trying to get this charity off the ground, when they're, you know, being a Girl Scout, you know, cl- leader. They... You know what I hope it does not become is just more, um, relaxation, entertainment, and amusement.

Jeff Berman 36:03 From your lips. Um, Angela-

Angela Duckworth 36:05 [laughs]

Jeff Berman 36:05 We are not going to wait, uh, for you to have your next book out to have you back on, on Masters of Scale. Uh, we're gonna-

Angela Duckworth 36:12 You, you waited a while. [laughs]

Jeff Berman 36:12 I, yeah, I, I, I'm worried about that.

Angela Duckworth 36:14 I think this is the last one.

Jeff Berman 36:15 Well, we'll, we'll see about that.

Angela Duckworth 36:17 We'll see.

Jeff Berman 36:17 But, um, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna, um, twist your arm to have you back soon. Um, you're the best. So wonderful having you on Masters of Scale, and can't wait to see you in person.

Angela Duckworth 36:25 Jeff, I cannot tell you how much I enjoyed this conversation. Thank you for having me.

Jeff Berman 36:28 Thanks, Angela. Thanks again to Angela Duckworth for joining us. Her new book, Situated, is out now. It is a terrific read full of insights that can help you improve your own situation. And I have to say, I read a lot of these kinds of books every year. I'm usually looking for one or two actionable insights, something that I can take into my daily life. If I'm lucky, I get that. Every now and then, you come across a book where [laughs] you just, you just can't count it, and you're annotating basically every other page. This is one of those. I can't recommend it highly enough. I'm Jeff Berman. Thank you for listening. [outro music]